Latest / The Modern Supply Chain / How e-commerce brands can recover revenue from returns

Transcript

How e-commerce brands can recover revenue from returns · The Modern Supply Chain

• Eric Banister (00:00): Returns are important, but they are often an afterthought. They feel more like an annoyance and a risk you want to drive down than a driver of growth. Izzy Rosenzweig (00:10): Brands that do not have return solution, listen closely. There is millions of dollars on the table if you do not have returns in your toolbox. This is The Modern Supply Chain, the show where we break down modern supply chain strategies that help e-commerce brands shift from staying above water to predictably scaling. Today's guest is Eric Banister, the Senior Vice President of Operations at Happy Returns. Eric spent nearly a decade working across e-commerce fulfillment, warehousing, sales, and marketing before joining Happy Returns. Today he oversees the company's hub and return bar operations, the physical network behind box-free, label-free returns at more than 10,000 locations nationwide. That network collects, verifies return items in person, consolidates them through regional hubs, and moves them back to companies in bulk so they can be processed and restocked more efficiently. In this episode, we're unpacking what it actually takes to build reverse logistics infrastructure at a national scale. (01:13): We'll discuss the operational signals that reveal when a brand is losing control of returns, why in-person verification can reduce fraud compared with traditional mail returns, how faster processing protects the resell window for returned inventory, and where AI powered tools like Return Vision fit into a system that still depends on people that physically handle the return product. Eric, thank you so much for being on The Modern Supply Chain. Eric Banister (01:38): Thanks, Izzy. I'm really excited to be here. Izzy Rosenzweig (01:40): So before we dive into Happy Returns, I'd love to learn a little more about you. So what is your background, I guess a little bit before you joined Happy Returns, just so that everyone has context. Eric Banister (01:49): I spent about a decade at a company called McMaster Car, which is kind of like being the Home Depot for warehouses and manufacturers. So that's where I cut my operational teeth, really got a deep dive into forward logistics, fulfillment, e-commerce, all kinds of things, also sales and marketing and kind of made it all around the horn there, but learned a whole lot about world-class operations. So I was there, like I said, for about a decade and then made the jump over to Happy Returns to try to help contribute to the solutions on the reverse logistics side or returns. Izzy Rosenzweig (02:25): I love that. So at Portless, we work with hundreds of brands, we ship products worldwide. And for us, we always felt it very clear there is one skillset which is outbound and a very different skillset for inbound. I know some 3PLs do both, some better than others. And your background you mentioned was the outbound motion. So I guess what is your perspective on could one outbound kind of business do both outbound, inbound? Should it be separated? I guess what's your perspective on that? Eric Banister (02:53): I do think the challenge is very real there and benefits you get when you're an outbound operation, you almost never have if you're kind of on the reverse side of things. For instance, forecasting, predicting the volumes you're going to have is a very different exercise. The way I kind of think of this one is for anybody who visits a warehouse or checks out a 3PL, if you really want to see something interesting, ask to see where returns are. Even the best, and I've been in some of the very best warehouses I think in the world, certainly in North America, the returns will often be the messiest, the most behind, the most work in process. And so it's its own kind of challenge. And so actually for me personally, that was part of what attracted me to the challenge that is Happy Returns and what we're doing in the space to make something much smoother and streamlined that can be such a challenge. (03:42): That said, I think also for me and for all of us at Happy Returns, it's very valuable to have the perspective of having been on the outbound side of things. One of the ways I think about what we're trying to do at a high level at Happy Returns is I think I want for my warehouse partners and my retailers that we work with, I want the returns I send their way to be as close to an OEM style receipt as they can get because that's kind of a bit of a gold standard. You know exactly what you're getting and what number of boxes. And I think that part of what we're trying to do with our innovation in the space is make that happen for our partners. So I think the outbound experience is really, really valuable. I do think that there's some enduring operational principles that will be true no matter where you are, things like bottlenecks and scalability and forecasting. (04:28): There's some stuff that always translates, but there's also a very unique set of challenges that we've been working on. Izzy Rosenzweig (04:34): I find a lot of e-commerce founders know a part of returns. Everyone knows returns is important. You don't nail returns for most businesses. Maybe your gross margins is 95%, so you don't care. But for most businesses, returns matter. It's going to hit your P&L, but maybe it can walk through a high level of Happy Returns. Is it RMA? Is it like a loop? Is it different? Eric Banister (04:53): Happy Returns, we've traditionally focused in the apparel and footwear space, though not exclusively such. But yeah, initially Happy Returns was very focused on brands that were very digitally native, didn't always have a lot of brick and mortar infrastructure themselves. And I think that it's really important that the journey and the Happy Return is the way to situate yourself and what it is that we do. So we are a pioneer of box-free, label-free returns. So all you need is the items and a digitally created QR code that we help create in connection with the retailer. And then the next powerful part of our product is our return bar network. So that is a network of about 10,000 locations where end consumers can drop off those items. The magic continues there when we have an item verification process that we use, that in-person drop-off, and we verify the item, which has a lot of benefits that we can get into in more detail. (05:53): Those returns get bagged and labeled and consolidated and they make it back to a Happy Returns sortation hub. And personally, I think this is kind of our special sauce. I think our special sauce is that we are neither exclusively a digital technology provider nor only a logistics provider. We're both. And the intersection of those worlds is I think a lot of the value that we can add because we know exactly what's been accepted, when and where, what's coming to our facilities. So we can then, with very efficient automation enabled sortation processes inside of our hubs, get that work sorted very quickly and with high quality and accuracy re-consolidated and then outbound on its way to our merchants and their warehouse partners in rapid speed. And so that's really the whole thing about Happy Returns. I always though if we were just one or the other, either a software only provider or a logistics only provider, we would be far less compelling. (06:49): And we do have some partners as well as some competitors in the space that do one or the other, and that's what they focus on. But I think what we provide for merchants and e-commerce retailers is that end-to-end solution that is really, we're just going to solve returns. It's going to be a really wonderful experience for their end users that is smooth. They don't need a printer at home. They don't need to remember to have a box, all those kinds of things. It helps prevent fraud and make sure that items get verified. It makes refunds incredibly quick. And then merchants and their warehouses on the back end, their 3PLs get the benefit of getting that stuff back to stock much more quickly so they can get that sold again. Izzy Rosenzweig (07:26): It really is such a brilliant solution. To your point, there are some providers out there, I'm not going to throw names, but they're just the RMA side and like, okay, sure. I got a label now. Who's going to actually do a great job here? They're like, oh, that's not our problem because it's a really hard problem. And to solve it, you actually have to do both. So I would love to hear on the inspection side, which I think is really interesting. I mean, I've done drop-offs, let's say for Amazon. I don't know if there's inspection and I think inspection is super, super powerful. So can you talk to us about that? How does that work? Do you actually deny some people dropping it off or does the fact to get inspected scare away the fraud side of this business? I'd love to hear how the inspection plays into it. Eric Banister (08:06): At drop off, and this is a critical part of Happy Returns and a part that has been a really important part of our journey, something we've evolved over time as well. So at the point of drop off, once an end user for one of our retailers has generated a return and we host a portal, we also could integrate with our merchants portals or a third party portal that they're using, you get a QR code. That QR code is the key to that return. And behind the scenes, we know which items are expected. So when someone shows up to a UPS store or a Staples or an Ulta Beauty and needs to do a drop off and has the items, once the person at the point of sale at one of those locations obtains that QR code, then everything kind of connects between Happy Return systems and the merchant systems on the backend. (08:53): And so when you think about that, you really have to be ready to have a variety of ways that things can get dropped off and accepted and also deal with a variety of different merchant kind of backend systems, inventory systems and management and those kinds of things. So the first way is if that item has a hang tag or really any sort of barcode from the original fulfillment process, we can integrate with that and then that scan will connect and be a verification step. So that's really nice because that's very similar or parallels a regular brick and mortar drop off, right? They're going to do the same thing. That's our first option. Another option we have is, let's say the hang tag's not present. We have an item puzzle that we've patented that provides options for the person accepting the drop off to select the correct item across a group of them, only one of which is correct. (09:44): And so that has to happen. Ultimately, if neither of those is functioning properly, we have some alternatives. We want to prioritize the end user experience here. It really is a crummy experience if you're trying to return something, they just won't take it. So we have ways to make sure we get there, but those verification steps at the front are really critical. And the other thing I'll mention here is I mentioned 10,000 locations. If you just assume something like 10 people work at each of those locations, there might be a hundred thousand different people who can take a Happy Return across the country at any time, and those folks change jobs and they turn over. So we have had to create powerful software that supports this process and very streamlined and straightforward processes that make sure it happens and is replicated across millions of returns every month and up to a hundred thousand different people touching them. Izzy Rosenzweig (10:35): So I think I want to touch on two things. First, the economics of this and then the fraudulent aspect to it, how you defer fraud. So prior to this model, which you guys are basically the earliest pioneers in this, it was very expensive. If you were Zappos copying them, ship it free returns, call it apparel and shoes, 20% return rate, 30% return rate, all of a sudden your math is getting nuts just to have a great experience. And the math is really hard. Shipping costs money. I know Zappos makes it feels easy in Amazon, it costs money. And if you're actually laying out that money, the brand has to raise the prices to basically afford that. So what you guys did is like, no, we actually make this really simple on an economic level, kind of the consumers finding a local location, taking away first mile, then mid mile gets way more affordable because now you're picking up in depots, which gets returned, which I think the economics of that side makes a ton of sense. (11:26): My second half to the question of economics is you make it so easy. I'm curious how resellable it is. You're like, no box, no poly, don't care, return it. What happens in that case? Are the brands your reverse logistics actually putting it back in a box or they're just like, "Hey, we don't actually care about it. Maybe we're donating it and we just don't want people to do fraud on us and not return it." Eric Banister (11:51): We collaborate with our different retailers, our different merchants on exactly this, and it is a bit different for each of them. So you connected a couple dots and I'll try to take them piece by piece, but not go too far. Fraud and the risk of fraud is really an important thing to work through. Every merchant wants to avoid it. Every 3PL wants to avoid it. And so the work that we've done to prevent that upfront, to your point, is really helpful, but then it can be so easy on the back end that maybe the bucket that captures this is fraud policy abuse. So it's not really fraudulent, but hey, this is the classic ideas of wardrobing and some of the things that you see out there, which can be a double-edged sword for our merchant retailers. They know that returns need to be easy to be competitive out there, but you get a small number of folks who maybe tend to abuse that policy, not so much the spirit of the policy and the law. (12:42): And so we've done a few things. So we ground our fraud, which is really focused on true fraud, things that you would consider breaking the law, someone like faking it, sending back an empty box of rocks, all that kind of stuff. But it does start with behavioral insights. And so we use an AI powered tool based on the behavior and backgrounds that are publicly available of our different shoppers. And so we can identify a shopper who has a really outsized frequency of returning for a given brand. It's something that we're also evolving our perspective on right now because there's a fine line between managing policy abuse and making an inconvenient experience for big shoppers. That's a very fine line. So we're kind of in process with some of those things right now. And then to touch on another point of what are our merchants doing, you mentioned the point about what are they doing when they get it back because this all kind of connects to policy abuse and how easy is it and what are return rates. (13:38): Typically when we've had a retailer who's provided us a concern with return rates and just how often they're getting things back, the first thing we can do to try to be helpful is if that inventory is resellable, yes, there's a cost that they bear to get that return back to stock and resell, but to the degree that we can make sure that the return fee itself is very economical for them from us and get that return back to them in a format and a state and a condition where they can more easily get it back to stock, their cost to restock drops. And so that's one thing we do. Another thing that we talk about with merchants is we've asked these questions about is liquidation an option you want to think about? Do you want everything back to stock? Is some a donation an approach? (14:23): Now, what I'll say is in the market so far, the vast, vast majority of the time, every merchant wants to get it back and they want to get it back to stock. And in the rare case that something is truly damaged, they'll dispose of it, but the vast majority is resellable. And if you can get it back in a state where it can get back to a shelf at a fulfillment center, the alternative sometimes that we are helping our merchants avoid is a clearance rack in a brick and mortar store. A clearance rack is usually a much greater loss of revenue for that merchant than the risk of a small percentage not being resellable within a warehouse setting. So that's been our experience. The economics really favor getting it back to the merchant in their warehouses and really favor getting it back in their supply chain to be sold again. Izzy Rosenzweig (15:07): And I think to your point, the most merchants want it back and want it to resell it because end of the day, if you nail that, your P&L just gets so much better. But we also on the other hand are saying, this is not an easy business. Forward shipping is one business, outbound is one business, inbound is another business. And I'm curious, there's forward deployed engineers. Is there forward deployed operations? Do you go there and be like, Hey guys, obviously depending on the size of the business, but to do this well, let us come to you, place two people at your return center so we can help you be more successful so you guys can. Is that a concept for the bigger companies? If you get that right, you have a cash cow, you get that wrong, you're screwed. Eric Banister (15:48): It's a great point and I would say the concept is out there. I would say we're only scratching the surface at Happy Returns, but I think there's actually a really good opportunity here to connect your point, Izzy, to our parent company of UPS. So this is one of those things where being a part of UPS, our market area of merchants of size that we work with really large retailers out there has really grown and those are huge customers for UPS as well. And so UPS has an entire arm called customer solutions that has traditionally focused on, like you were saying, the outbound side of a field teams and consulting capacity and those kinds of things to help make sure if we get this shipment prepared this way, you save X millions of dollars, faster speed, win-win. I think we're just scratching the surface on the inbound side of returns, on the reverse side of the business. (16:43): So in terms of visiting merchant warehouses, we do do that. We do that pretty religiously during the sales process if our merchants are open to it, and we always have an open door for our facilities. So I think it's really the dialogue here that's important. And right now it's not a service that at Happy Returns we are providing as a revenue driver for ourselves, but I think that in the future, there's both a physical logistics, and again, going back to it again, and a software component. When we're sending a shipment, we generate an ASM or an advanced shipping notice and a manifest that connects to the bill of lading that the merchant is going to get. And for folks used to this space, hopefully this all sounds just like what you'd get from an original manufacturer as a supplier. So we mimic those things and have a portal, like I mentioned before, where our merchants can reference this and they can plan labor, plan their inventory in advance. (17:41): And so right now I think we've made great strides to get the items back in a way that is much easier to receive. One other note here is you mentioned exactly it can be everybody wants it to be, if you had a magic wand, every retailer wants to wave that magic wand, the shirt is back on the shelf, I can sell it again. That's if we just had a magic wand. So we all live in the real world and we have to say, how close can we get to that and at what cost? As it stands right now, returns often look like they look very ugly to receive if they are just empty boxes and bags, you open the back of a trailer and they're just all over the place on the floor. That we found is one of the, that's probably the single biggest cost bucket for our retailers and their 3PLs because it's just this who knows what's even here and that feels like such a high bar and so costly to get back to stock. (18:31): From a Happy Return, you're going to receive palletized shipments with the ASNs, everything's bagged and it has a QR code that's scannable. So I really think that it's as much about lowering those receiving costs of returns as it is about what the fee is that we charge. And we have really competitive economics here, especially versus single piece shipments since we're doing consolidated shipping. So that's kind of all the part of the formula together that makes it a reasonable cost to get that resold. Izzy Rosenzweig (18:59): So you basically simplify it so easy that there's no easier version of personal returns than barcoded, palletized, scan into your ERP and then do your work. You can't do everything, but I think you're simplifying it all the way. Eric Banister (19:12): If there is, my team better find it. Izzy Rosenzweig (19:16): Now at Portless, we work with hundreds of brands, anywhere from five to 250 million. When brands come to Portless, they scale very quickly because Portless, we ship directly near the factory to customers around the world, US being the biggest market. And our brand scale, we've had brands go from one to 100 million literally in two years. So really, really fast. And I do see returns is an afterthough. Returns, again, depending on the gross margins, how important you think about it, also the return rate. I guess when you see a brand growing really quickly, how much money's on the table here? Is it fraud abuse money? Is it no inbound and resell money? How do you look at GMV and returns and be like, Hey, you don't have a return solution in place, you're leaving $5 million on the table, whatever that number may be. Eric Banister (19:59): Having been on the journey it's been on over the last decade, I think we also have a really healthy perspective on this and Happy Returns because we've gone through the process of saying, what are those value calculators that we want to put in front of retailer and say, how do we work together to help identify? Because a starting point here that's important that we keep in mind is returns are important, but they are often an afterthough. They feel more like an annoyance and a risk you want to drive down than a driver of growth or it's not the top line. It's not those things on the fulfillment side, on the marketing side. So that's the thing is I think sometimes what we're doing is educating and we're going on a journey together with a retailer, with a merchant to say, "Well, hey, let us maybe take a look at how much this might be costing you, that corner of your warehouse that is pretty inefficient, might feel a little messy, and I think there's a lot of found money in those couch cushions that we could really try to find." So I think the piece that we used to emphasize, maybe not exclusively, but almost so, was really the inbound transportation costs back to the retailer. (21:06): That is still a really important factor. Don't get me wrong. Our rates are definitely going to be very competitive against single piece because single piece is just necessarily less efficient economics in the vast majority of cases. But we've really tried to emphasize the rate of loss not getting back to shelves to be resold. And that's where things really hit because then you're talking about wholesale value of items. So we're not talking about less than $10 for a shipping label, we're talking about 40 or $50 for an item that you're selling for two times that. And then wait a minute, that's the money that we're really talking about. So I think when a merchant is growing and we look at return rates that might be in the 15, 20, or 25% range, and then you've got a company, like you said, let's use your example of a hundred million in revenue and then you take the wholesale price. (21:58): Yeah, we're talking millions of dollars at that point, right? We might be talking over $10 million at that point. In addition to that, we layer on the real value, so that's cost savings. And then we also really, I'll always emphasize the value to the end user of the option of an instantaneous refund at drop off. We all return things. I'll tell you what, it really just feels crummy again when you return that thing and you're waiting three weeks for it to get checked right in the warehouse. Nothing you control as a customer. It's just like, where's my money? Where's my money? I mean, your credit card might even come due before the time you get the refund. Happy Returns, our default value added solution is add drop off with the patented verification steps we have, that refund can start processing as soon as a credit card company can send it. (22:42): So it would really be the savings are a big thing and then really emphasizing that end user experience, which we think is very sticky for our merchants too, right? If you get that, you're coming back around again. Izzy Rosenzweig (22:53): So brands that do not have return solution, listen closely. There is millions of dollars on the table. If you do not have returns in your toolbox and do not consider it an afterthought, consider as part of your key supply chain. I love it, fully agree with it, both as a consumer and as being part of supply chain. I guess futuristic question, and I don't know if you guys ever get involved in this, but obviously I agree, hopefully a majority of the business gets put back on the shelf and you're reselling it at retail, but there's always going to be a piece of the business that is not going on the shelf. Does half returns get involved in the resale strategy? What does the resale look like for the goods that aren't going on the shelf? I'll Eric Banister (23:33): Start with the broader UPS enterprise. So UPS also has some options that they've explored. UPS has effectively a 3PL arm, their supply chain services arm, and currently does some of this dispositioning for some merchants out there of UPS more broadly. And leveraging the opportunity here, I think really starts with our return bar network and leveraging that really robust set of drop-off nodes all across the country, which the vast, vast majority live within a couple miles of. So that's kind of the starting point. In terms of our kind of core business flow right now, over the past few years, we found so much demand for the core Happy Returns offering of getting things back to the shelf that we really see at least for the next year or two, three years, so much growth in that area that we remain focused there as our primary place. (24:28): That said, we continue to look for additional verticals and different areas that would help a given merchant, especially if it's a merchant of size for us. We're always going to be open to a more bespoke solution where we could add a sort in one of our facilities and siphon off some volume. And we've explored everything from what you would call a true liquidation partner, somebody who really gathers up stuff and liquidates it on that kind of wholesale liquidation market to potentially a donation-based approach, circular economy and the ability for you think about a Patagonia out there with their Warnwear program, which they were one of the first in their particular area to really, I think, push on that and it's very core to their values. The number of brands that'll be interested in that over time I do think will grow. We've explored some of those things. (25:17): Now in terms of being involved as a reseller, I will say this was the strategic decision on Happy Returns part to keep our focus. We have not branched into that, and I think we've seen some competitors come and go who gave this a try. It's a really compelling conceptual idea, don't get me wrong. It's one that we've explored and things like that. I think that the market has shown us that there's a risk and a loss of focus when you need to be also a fulfillment operation. Not to say it's not possible someday in the future, the world's our rooster, but I will say, and I think this is, I'm here, I'm biased, but I think it's Happy Returns Credit. It was very strategic decision of focus to make sure we are a premier reverse logistics provider first and foremost, and that's where we're playing. Izzy Rosenzweig (26:03): ICPU, who's the right fit for you guys? You mentioned shoes apparel, you go beyond that. What's the right GMV? Who's the right fit for you guys? Eric Banister (26:10): I'll tell you our focus, primary focus is, I would say medium to large enterprise scale retailers, like you said, in the soft goods apparel space. I would include footwear in that and soft goods, shirts and shorts and dresses as well as footwear. We've branched into some soft goods for housewares. We're not a furniture sortation enterprise, but home goods and linens, but we've recently been exploring several really compelling kind of extensions for ourselves. One, I'll throw an example out there, is the realm of beauty and beauty products. So that is a massive industry, but it comes with, you talk about returns being unique in the apparel space, a potentially used beauty product that could also be regulated for transportation as hazardous material. Now that said, I think in part because of what I just said, it represents a huge opportunity - Izzy Rosenzweig (27:06): 100%. For Eric Banister (27:07): Someone to figure out. Izzy Rosenzweig (27:08): How about GMV? What is mid-market for you guys? Is that 50 million, 100 million, lower? Eric Banister (27:13): Oh, lower than that. We do work with small and medium businesses, but I would say our sweet spot is really, you could be smaller than 50 million for us. Okay. So Izzy Rosenzweig (27:23): How many returns a month is the ICP starting? Eric Banister (27:26): Yeah, sure, sure, sure. Something like 10,000, five to 10,000 is a good. We can do less than that. We can. We can do single thousands, but five to 10,000 returns a month is a good starting place. Our largest merchants, of course, will be 10, maybe 100X that. Izzy Rosenzweig (27:40): Yeah, of course. Awesome. Love it. So much to learn here. Little bit predictions. Where do you think the future of return goes? I don't know, AI, robotics, do you have a thesis on how this evolves over the next five years? Eric Banister (27:53): I think that the behavioral aspect of AI is super, super compelling. And by the behavioral aspect of AI, what I mean is shopper behavior and predictive approaches to that. We use it right now for predicting fraud risk. That's a downside, right? Predicting opportunities, using it for the buzz phrase you hear out there all the time is more agentic returns. Can we really help use the data we know to help a customer do an exchange instead of a return? Very powerful ideas I think there. So that's kind of a behavioral based thing. On the logistics side, look, I think physical automation is here and it will only grow. We made a significant investment in an automated sortation solution, a robotic automated sortation solution in our sites a couple years ago. We've continued to invest in automation and it is really powerful. The best physical automation both leads to efficiency, yes, but it really unlocks speed for our merchants, getting things turned around that much quicker to them and bots are also very, very accurate. (28:57): So for quality and things like that. And then we also do use some vision-based AI inside of our facilities. So that's kind of the way to complete the loop. We mentioned a lot about fraud. We premiered last year a product called Return Vision, which has been really powerful. If you combine that with a behavioral AI insight up front, "Hey, this might be a little risky, get into a facility." We sort it separately. We take a look at that item and we use a vision-based large language model and some machine learning on the back end. It's amazing the small nuances of a him or a type of a button or the fabric that's inside of a garment to say this doesn't actually match what it should have been. And it's kind of things that might escape the human eye. So it's those really nuanced things and that's really powerful. (29:44): So I see so much more with physical automation and things like vision inside of facilities. We always scan barcodes and I think we'll do that for a long time, but the day when it's more so cameras that gather all kinds of stuff, I think there's a lot more of that. Izzy Rosenzweig (29:59): More just vision. Eric Banister (30:02): Yep. Maybe another prediction to keep out there is marketplaces are just such a compelling thing. That's not news to anyone, but the reverse logistics of marketplaces because of the nature of how they're divvied up and split, that I think will be a really interesting area to look at as well because they're by definition kind of bulkanized. And so I think there's some interesting solutioning to be done in that space as well. Izzy Rosenzweig (30:28): To simplify the returns for marketplaces. Eric Banister (30:30): Correct. Izzy Rosenzweig (30:31): I love it. All right. Where can people find you, learn more about Happy Returns? Where would you point people? Eric Banister (30:36): Our website is awesome and happyreturns.com. You can find me on LinkedIn. What I'll say too is on happyreturns.com, there are tons of great resources, especially for retailers and merchants on going deep into some of these things we were talking here, like fraud. What's going on with fraud out there? We put together an annual report on that. We also put together an annual report on the state of returns. And so there's a lot of really compelling statistics that my guess for many retailers often turn into something that resonates with them. You pick up a thing, you're like, "Yeah, wait a minute, that could be it." And then we're out and about at the various trade shows and stuff. I don't have one on the top of my mind to tell you that we're coming up to next, but start at happyreturns.com. Izzy Rosenzweig (31:19): NRF. NRF is a classic. Do you guys go to NRF? Eric Banister (31:21): Correct. Yes. NRF. Izzy Rosenzweig (31:22): NRF Top Talk, all the classics like that. Eric Banister (31:24): Yep, absolutely. Yep. You find us there and all the socials, of course, we're on them. Love Izzy Rosenzweig (31:29): It. Eric, this has been awesome. I think returns is totally underrated. I'm happy you guys, I mean, simplified it, don't simplify it too much. But this was a really fascinating conversation and thank you for being on the podcast. Eric Banister (31:43): Thank you so much, Izzy. This was great. Appreciate you taking the time to talk through with me. Izzy Rosenzweig (31:48): Absolutely. Thanks so much. Thank you for listening to The Modern Supply Chain. If you have questions about anything we talked about, you can find me on LinkedIn. And if you're interested in learning more about Portless, check out our website, portless.com. As always, hit that follow button so you don't miss an episode. See you next time.