Latest / Between Two Chairs - Demystifying Commercial Real Estate / Retail Follows Rooftops: An Interview With Jose Almirall and Laura Salom of Luxury Builder Porta Negra

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Retail Follows Rooftops: An Interview With Jose Almirall and Laura Salom of Luxury Builder Porta Negra · Between Two Chairs - Demystifying Commercial Real Estate

0:00
Welcome to Between Two Chairs, Demystifying Commercial
0:04
Real Estate, the podcast that brings you the
0:06
latest insights and trends on the South Florida
0:09
commercial real estate market with your hosts,
0:12
Fernando Arencivia Jr. and Jennifer Wolman. In
0:16
each episode, we dive into the world of commercial
0:18
real estate and break down complex concepts to
0:21
make them accessible for everyone. Whether you're
0:24
a real estate professional, a curious investor
0:27
or just interested in the South Florida market
0:30
in general. Between Two Chairs is the podcast
0:32
for you. So pull up a chair and join us. Welcome,
0:48
everybody, to another episode of Between Two
0:50
Chairs. My name is Fernando Anisivia with me.
0:53
He, as always, is the host with the most. Jennifer
0:56
woman, Jennifer, say hi. Hi, everybody. I still
1:00
hold my breath every time you get ready to introduce
1:03
me. I never know what's coming. You don't know
1:05
what's coming. I don't know what's coming. I
1:07
have no idea what I'm going to say. That's what
1:10
scares you. I love it. So Jennifer, would you
1:13
introduce our amazing guest for today's episode,
1:16
please? I'd be happy to. So in commercial real
1:19
estate, we always say retail follows rooftops.
1:22
And if you want to know where the next retail
1:25
center is going or the next demand center is,
1:28
you follow rooftops. So today we're breaking
1:31
from our usual format and we're talking to the
1:34
power couple who are actually behind building
1:37
some of the, in my opinion, most beautiful rooftops
1:39
in Miami. Joining us are Jose Almiral and Laura
1:45
Salam, the husband and wife team behind Porta
1:48
Negra Design and Build. They started, you guys
1:51
started out flipping homes, right? About 10 years
1:54
ago. Yeah, 10 years ago. 10 years ago. And so
1:57
today they're going to give us an insider blueprint
2:00
on how they built a bulletproof company 10 years
2:06
ago in what is probably one of the hardest real
2:09
estate markets in the country. So welcome Jose
2:13
and Laura. Thank you for having us. We're excited.
2:16
Good, good. So happy 10 year anniversary. I'm
2:20
so excited that you guys just celebrated your
2:23
10 year anniversary. Can you believe it's been
2:24
that long? No, it went by really, well actually
2:27
I would say, I shouldn't say went by really fast.
2:32
But it's hard to believe that it's been 10 years
2:35
already doing this. And we still love it. And
2:39
you guys still do a beautiful job. Every house
2:41
is unique. I can't even call it a house, because
2:44
from the time you build it, it looks like somebody's
2:47
home. It doesn't look just like a house waiting
2:49
to become somebody's home. So tell us a little
2:53
bit about yourselves, where you grew up, what
2:55
you like to do as kids, and then what you did
2:59
before you guys started Porta Negra. I'll go
3:02
first. So I was born and raised in Mallorca,
3:06
Spain. I grew up there. It's a beautiful place
3:09
to grow up. Nice, quiet life, you know what I
3:11
mean? And I've always, as a kid, I was an only
3:15
child, so I always had to entertain myself, basically,
3:18
and always gravitated towards creative things.
3:22
So I was always like drawing, building, even
3:25
recording like shows on my own. I was pretending
3:28
to be all the different characters in a variety
3:32
show. And so, yeah, that's kind of... My dad's
3:37
an artist, he's a photographer. So definitely
3:40
we have a strong creative side in my family.
3:44
So that was definitely a big influence. And then
3:48
when I went to high school, I actually left Mallorca.
3:51
I went to England to do high school. And then
3:53
after that, Boston for college and studied architecture.
3:59
I liked studying it, but I didn't see myself
4:02
as an architect, funny enough. So then I followed
4:07
into doing masters in market research and public
4:11
relations. I worked in that for a little bit.
4:15
Then I did my MBA, which is where we met, still
4:19
in Boston. And I continued in marketing for a
4:22
long time, market research specifically. Then
4:25
eventually we moved to Miami. So I worked at
4:27
Carnival and also at Burger King in the Consumer
4:31
Insights Department until The calling was there.
4:34
The calling with the houses was there. Very strong.
4:38
And I had, you know, I liked the whole thing
4:41
of climbing the corporate ladder, all the different
4:44
challenges there and everything. It was, it was
4:47
fun, but I felt like I needed to do something
4:49
a bit more creative. And that's when, thanks
4:52
to Jose, because I'm risk -averse. So thanks
4:54
to Jose, he pushed me to start it. So I did the
4:59
first house 10 years ago. And then that was the
5:04
beginning of something different and exciting.
5:07
I love that. So you're the creative and Jose's
5:11
the risk taker. Not quite. More than me. So I'm
5:17
definitely, I wouldn't consider myself a risk
5:20
taker. I would say that I take, we take very
5:25
educated business decisions that are backed by
5:28
data. Of course, there is always a risk in anything
5:32
you do in business, but nothing is on a whim.
5:36
I'll tell you a little bit about myself. I am
5:39
a son of Cuban parents, but I was born and raised
5:42
in Puerto Rico. So I was born and raised in San
5:44
Juan. There is a group of Cubans that sometimes
5:48
people forget in Miami that actually didn't migrate
5:50
over to Miami. They went over there. So there's
5:53
a large contingency in Puerto Rico. I was raised
5:56
there all the way through high school. At which
5:59
point I moved to Boston and I did my undergrad
6:02
and master's in Boston. And just like Laura said,
6:05
that's where we met. I did grow up as an only
6:08
child, but I didn't record sessions or spend
6:11
time doodling because I grew up in a condominium
6:17
with two towers and there were probably 20 kids
6:20
my age. So I grew up surrounded by friends and
6:24
relationships. And that was the beginning of
6:28
I think part of my forming years. So I put a
6:31
lot of stake and importance on relationships.
6:35
And I'm proud to call my best friend today the
6:37
same best friend I had when I was five years
6:39
old. So I have preserved many of these friendships.
6:43
I have another friend from when we were 10 years
6:47
old that's actually coming next month to stay
6:48
over. So all of these childhood relationships.
6:52
the same thing for high school and then college
6:55
and now today, I've cultivated for the long run.
7:00
So I've always been a friends and relationships
7:04
type of person. I studied finance. So I am more
7:08
of the numbers nerd of the equation. And I did
7:12
that for many, many years. Then when I did my
7:15
master's, I did not do any numbers. I spent most
7:20
of my time in marketing strategy. And then I
7:24
also went to work for Birking right before joining
7:28
Porto Negro. I spent seven years at Birking.
7:31
And I was in operations and general management
7:34
roles. And I climbed through the ladder, like
7:37
Laura said, also. But it got to the point where
7:40
I thought there would be more to life and then
7:44
staying and supporting Whopper sales internationally.
7:49
and Laura made me an offer I couldn't refuse.
7:53
I thought she recruited me and the timing was
7:56
perfect because our only daughter Laila was about
8:00
to be born and I believe I quit in March and
8:05
she was born in July. So I was perfect timing
8:08
to be available as a new father and this opportunity
8:14
professionally allowed us to be able to work
8:17
together, spend time together. My last role at
8:20
Burger King, I was traveling three weeks out
8:22
of the month, visiting restaurants internationally,
8:24
and I was just not at home a lot, and I thought
8:28
it was a good transition. We have, not to get
8:32
into maybe other questions, but we have very,
8:35
we're very complimentary professionally, as well
8:38
as probably personally, but her strengths are
8:40
my weaknesses, and my strengths are not her weaknesses,
8:44
but she's better served doing other things. creatively
8:47
than I ever could. So that's how that's how we
8:51
make it work. I love that. And kudos to you.
8:54
I adore my husband. We've been married almost
8:56
40 years, but I could never work with him. We
8:59
would kill each other. So I understand. I know
9:04
a few people who are married couples that work
9:07
together. And when it works, it works beautifully.
9:10
And I've got to say, you guys really do compliment
9:12
each other extremely. Is that why every time
9:15
I see Carlos, he asks me, how do you do it? Yes.
9:17
How do you do it? I love it. I love the relationship
9:24
and the data because that's a big part of our
9:27
DNA as well. We love to be data driven or in
9:31
our decision making. And, you know, we're all
9:33
about, you know, relationships. And so take us
9:37
back to 10 years ago when when you decided to
9:39
take this jump, what were you envisioning? Because
9:41
I'm sure that every time we speak to an entrepreneur,
9:46
what you envision kind of changes along the way,
9:50
especially once you look back in a 10 -year trajectory?
9:53
The walks. The walks. I'll let you start with
9:57
the walks and maybe I'll throw in some pepper
10:00
and salt along the way. It all started with us
10:04
wanting to get healthy and do more exercise,
10:09
get ready for also getting pregnant and all that.
10:12
So we started doing these two -mile walks, sometimes
10:16
even longer. If Jose could convince me, it would
10:20
go longer. And so we would walk in South Miami
10:22
where we used to live. And during those walks,
10:25
we would talk about what our dreams and what
10:28
we would like to be doing if we weren't doing
10:30
the corporate life. So I would always bring up
10:34
this idea of wanting to flip homes and build
10:37
homes and that sort of thing. So we started exploring
10:41
that in our walks. And we started talking about,
10:44
we were doing numbers in our head. Like, what
10:45
would it take? How much would it cost? And we
10:48
spent hours and hours as we would walk talking
10:52
about that. How would it work? What would the
10:54
set, the perfect setup be for something like
10:56
that? And I needed a lot of reassurance of before
11:01
taking the leap of faith, because I'm the one
11:03
that, you know, started. first, he stayed at
11:06
Burger King. So I really needed to have it very
11:09
clear, you know, like, what would it look like?
11:13
What would it take? So we we definitely did a
11:16
lot of numbers, a lot of numbers and a lot of
11:19
different scenarios. And so in terms of the vision,
11:22
I think at first I just wanted Laura to be happy
11:25
and fulfilled professionally. And I noticed that
11:27
she was unloving the time in corporate. because
11:32
as you get, if you go up through the ranks, sometimes
11:34
it becomes less about the job and more about
11:36
the politics. And that could be very draining
11:39
if you're not enjoying that environment. So I
11:43
noticed that she had that calling and that spark
11:46
for houses and architecture and design. She would
11:49
watch HGTV and she'd be like, oh, that's such
11:52
a terrible choice. And I'm like, wow, you're
11:55
really confident there. because you know and
11:59
then she would explain to me what she sees that
12:01
I don't see but all about proportions and this
12:04
and that and she has the eye for that and I said
12:07
you know I think you you should consider doing
12:09
this at first it was probably dismissive but
12:14
all these power walks in the morning little by
12:16
little we were still we're building the building
12:18
blocks of the business plan at first I think
12:21
we and I'm not going to speak for you, but I
12:24
think the vision was more short -sighted than
12:27
where we are now 10 years later. It was about
12:31
flipping a home kind of the way Flip or Flop
12:34
was doing it. Buying a South Miami home, that's
12:38
a big market of all 1950s homes that need refurbishing,
12:43
rehabbing, doing a great job in selling them.
12:46
So we started with that and that more or less
12:49
lasted I would say about the first five years,
12:53
that was the business model, almost exclusively.
12:57
The pandemic changed things. The pandemic, as
12:59
you know, changed real estate forever in Miami.
13:03
And as things got more expensive, we had to pivot.
13:08
So the vision changed. We're no longer doing
13:11
$500 ,000 homes in South Miami. All of a sudden,
13:17
there's nothing available. We had to look to
13:19
markets like Pinecrest and buy a million dollar
13:22
home. So we started to pull resources. So the
13:25
vision changed and we saw ourselves doing almost
13:29
accidentally as the market pushed us in that
13:31
direction, doing bigger homes that require more
13:36
investment, more fine eye for detail, more complex,
13:41
more complexities, right? The easy homes, the
13:44
homes that only need, you know, cosmetic. improvements
13:48
were basically being grabbed by the average end
13:52
user. So what's left are the difficult projects.
13:56
And that actually came with a blessing, which
13:58
is the more complex a project that you get, the
14:03
more you improve your skill set. So the challenges
14:07
that we were tackling were one step at a time
14:10
getting harder and harder, and the products could
14:13
get more complex and bigger. The vision continued
14:16
to evolve. into even bigger houses and eventually
14:20
all the way to buy a lot or a lot with a very
14:25
small house for tear down. And not even at that
14:30
point had we even spoken about taking on clients
14:33
as contractors. So you could see how the vision
14:35
continues to pivot. And that took place over
14:38
the last three years. Once we were full in building
14:41
new construction and doing additions and bigger
14:45
projects. We saw ourselves with fewer volume
14:49
of homes that were owned by Portanegra Investments,
14:52
investment fund, but more spare capacity for
14:56
our teams. So the same teams that work in our
14:58
homes are the teams that work for our clients.
15:01
The same teams that help build this house are
15:03
the teams that we use when we remodel a home.
15:07
And the last three years, the vision again pivoted.
15:10
And now we have the two companies today, which
15:14
is the one we started. And we also have Port
15:18
Tenegra Design and Build, serving clients in
15:21
mostly South Miami, the Gables, Pinecrest, City
15:24
of Miami. You mentioned three very difficult
15:30
cities to get permitting in. Coral Gables, Pinecrest,
15:36
and the City of Miami. I know Jose, you and I
15:39
have spoken. I don't know how many times about
15:44
poor Laura being at a building place and wanting
15:47
to pull out her hair because of the jump throughs
15:52
and the hoops that these cities make you go through
15:55
in order to get permits. So can you tell us a
15:59
little bit about your experience with these cities,
16:03
with getting permits, to one of your statements
16:08
that you made, which was, you know, the more
16:11
complex, the better the skill set is. I'm wondering
16:15
if seeing having worked with so many different
16:19
cities, if you've seen what some of these building
16:22
departments do right, what they do wrong and
16:25
how they could improve that. I think there's
16:28
two sides to that coin, right? When you first
16:31
start interacting with cities, you only know
16:35
what you know. And a lot of the first experiences
16:38
you have are mostly led by the architects. The
16:42
architects are the ones that bring the knowledge.
16:44
They're the ones that have the experience of
16:46
responding to review comments and then the ones
16:49
that are hand holding you through the permit
16:51
approval. So I would say that the first call
16:55
of the first four or five years, we weren't really
16:59
in the driver's seat. We were more. trying to
17:02
understand how it worked, why some cities took
17:04
longer than others, et cetera. The second part
17:10
of that, I guess the last five years, the more
17:12
plans you see, just like with anything, the more
17:14
you do something, the more the better you understand
17:16
it. We started to understand what it is that
17:20
the cities really need to get plans approved.
17:23
So I would say overall, our experience has been.
17:29
has been good. We can work with any city. We
17:32
don't, we're not the type of, I guess, a builder
17:35
or contractor that says we're not going to work
17:38
somewhere to avoid having to meet with a reviewer.
17:42
We do prefer. But we can, we can absolutely,
17:50
and we have absolutely tackled everything now.
17:54
If anybody's watching from the cities we love
17:56
you, we understand you have a duty to fulfill.
18:00
There are definitely cities that are more difficult
18:03
than others and that take longer than others.
18:07
We have cities, I'm not going to name names,
18:10
we have cities that you can provide all the information
18:12
they request and just because it's not on the
18:14
page that they want it, they'll deny it and they
18:17
won't tell you that's the reason. They like for
18:19
you to go and get an explanation. So they make
18:23
it unnecessarily tedious and long. Some cities
18:28
love to work with you. I'll tell you that South
18:31
Miami is absolutely the best city to work in.
18:35
They collaborate. Zoning will look at your plan
18:38
and say, here's what I need in order for you
18:41
to meet this ordinance or this code. Think of
18:44
it doing it this way or that way. And it doesn't
18:46
feel like you're. trying to please someone without
18:50
any information or guidance. It almost feels
18:53
like, hey, this is why I cannot approve it this
18:55
way. But if you find a way, let me give you a
18:58
little hint. If you can find a way and it matches
19:00
with what you're trying to ultimately do, then
19:04
we could probably move forward. And I love that
19:06
approach because ultimately what we all want
19:08
is to improve the homes. The city wants to improve
19:11
the home. The value of the home goes up. They
19:13
collect more taxes. we want to build a home,
19:16
we want to beautify the city, we want to move
19:18
on to the next project. And some cities operate
19:22
collaboratively and some cities they give you
19:25
the homework but they don't give you the answer
19:26
or any sort of guidance. It would be I think
19:30
positive evolution if all the cities opted for
19:33
a more collaborative approach where you're not
19:36
feeling like you're guessing. Every review cycle
19:40
takes 30 days by law. So one comment Just any
19:45
comment that could in corporate America be solved
19:49
in an afternoon. Oh, you need me to add the bushes
19:51
around the AC condenser so that you can see it.
19:56
Fantastic. In an hour, I'll have it for you.
19:58
Oh no, you need to resubmit it. And now the cycle
20:02
kicks in 21 days or 28 days for you to get a
20:06
response. And that kind of inefficiency, because
20:11
it is something that's at the city level, there's
20:13
nothing we can do about that. It's just it is
20:15
what it is. There's definitely room for improvement.
20:18
And from what I've been reading and hearing in
20:21
the news, it sounds like all the cities want
20:24
to make it easier, especially with the scarcity
20:27
in housing that we're experiencing. You think
20:30
it would be better for everyone if we could build
20:33
faster and be able to bring more houses to the
20:37
market, right? But the reality, too, is that
20:40
even though there's some improvements here and
20:42
there, There's also more complexities added because
20:46
as there's flooding in the streets, they're changing
20:50
basically the whole thing about the septic systems.
20:54
All those things create more complexities. So
20:56
now we, for example, we pretty much have to have
20:59
a civil plan for. any project that we do. That's
21:02
something that we didn't used to have before.
21:04
So now there's more departments also checking
21:06
and it's more expensive because you have to hire
21:09
now a new engineer to draw plants and just more
21:14
things to be on top of and checking. So it's
21:17
actually instead of getting easier it just feels
21:21
like it's getting more complex and the bigger
21:22
the projects obviously that complexity just starts
21:25
to... It's really interesting because we're entering
21:29
a phase in which because of affordability concerns
21:33
and because of the lack of availability of housing,
21:37
you have federal laws that are trickling down
21:40
now. that are going to affect the planning and
21:44
zoning departments at a local level. You have
21:45
state laws and what happens is now that also
21:48
adds to the complicity because these departments
21:50
have to now implement these new guidelines. But
21:54
what I would love to see and I love Jose what
21:56
you mentioned about. the collaborative approach,
21:59
because we've we've heard from other cities around
22:02
the county where that is the case, where they
22:04
bring you in and they have all the departments
22:06
sitting down around a table and then they go,
22:09
OK, here is my concern or I'm good. I'm good.
22:12
You're good with me. You know, the other department
22:14
says this needs to change. And then, but, you
22:16
know, as you know very well, that triggers a
22:18
change to the other department. But now they're
22:20
all in one room so they could figure it out.
22:22
I would love to see kind of like a charrette.
22:25
but not a design shirt, but more of a process
22:28
where they bring people like you in and developers,
22:30
both large and small, that can sit around the
22:33
table and be able to say, this is how I think
22:36
we can make improvements together to this process.
22:40
Because I think that that would be very, very
22:42
insightful. And you would get I think the cities
22:45
will get a lot out of that. I think so, too.
22:48
I think that that maybe there is some idea of
22:51
sharing sessions that could happen in the building
22:54
departments. You mentioned how expensive it is,
22:57
right? Because you keep adding layers. And we're
22:59
sitting here talking about costs. And so if everybody
23:03
realized that just making the whole permitting
23:06
process more efficient, it's not only going to
23:10
cost less, it's going to bring more money into
23:13
the cities faster. We talk about that on a commercial
23:16
standpoint all the time. I mean, if you're adding
23:19
30 days every single time there's a change, you
23:22
could potentially be adding six months to a deal
23:26
or more in commercial we've seen it go like a
23:29
year and a half before that business or home
23:32
even comes on the market to the tax rolls so
23:36
I think your point about creating efficiencies
23:39
would really help tell us a little bit because
23:41
the last house that you did was spectacular it
23:46
that was the one where you had your your 10 -year
23:48
anniversary party that's the one that I'm talking
23:50
about and that's definitely a huge That's high
23:55
net worth, ultra high net worth property. Tell
23:58
us a little bit about that process, what it's
24:02
like working at that level. Building a house
24:09
that's that big, go into the square footage,
24:12
go into how fast it was on the market. I mean,
24:15
you guys set a record for price per square foot
24:18
in that neighborhood, if I'm not mistaken. And
24:22
the time was super fast. I thought it was going
24:25
to sit for a while just because of the size and
24:28
everything else. if it sold immediately. Yeah,
24:32
we didn't even have to list it, which is amazing.
24:35
We still can't believe that. But the permit process
24:41
was actually very long, speaking of permits.
24:45
It took us, I think, about a year to get approval,
24:48
mostly because of things like the septic, the
24:53
trees. There were several things that were just
24:55
dragging it on and on and on. to many rounds
24:58
until we finally got approved permits and we
25:02
were able to start. So the beginning was slow
25:04
in that sense. And then for us, we always like
25:09
to learn with every project that we do. So this
25:12
house was very interesting for us because it
25:15
was the first time that we were doing a two -story
25:18
home from scratch. We've worked on remodels for
25:21
two -story homes, but this was So we wanted to
25:27
get that experience, right? We also added a home
25:30
theater, so that was a new experience for us
25:32
too, creating that. An elevator, we had never
25:37
done an elevator. So these are all little things
25:39
that we love to learn about because it's exciting,
25:41
it's something new, but then it just becomes
25:44
different tools that we have in our tool bill
25:46
for the future that now we know how to tackle
25:50
them. So it was a fun project. It's one of the
25:54
biggest houses that we've designed. It was 8
25:58
,000 square feet of living, 10 ,000 in total.
26:02
So it was fun to imagine. Because of my consumer
26:07
insights background, I've always liked to think
26:09
about what consumers want. I've always tried
26:13
to have a pulse on the trends of the needs and
26:16
wants. So we incorporate that as well, like what
26:20
are the features that a home of this caliber
26:23
should have, right? So making sure that those
26:25
things are incorporated. So that was fun from
26:28
the design side and then the construction side,
26:31
all these challenges were very... I think every
26:34
house that we build, it's an improvement upon
26:36
the last one. So we have a continuous improvement
26:40
mindset. We know that we can always do better.
26:43
We're not afraid to sit around the table here
26:46
with the teams because we use the same teams
26:49
and there are no egos. We look at it with a perspective
26:54
of what could we have done differently from a
26:57
process standpoint and from a quality standpoint.
27:00
Did we do something out of sequence that made
27:02
it harder on someone else? Is there something
27:06
that we could have done better so the finishes
27:08
would be improved over the last one? And that
27:12
happens naturally. That is just how we're built.
27:16
Laura is kind of like a joker around the teams.
27:20
When Laura goes and shows up with five rolls
27:22
of blue tape, everybody squirms. But she goes
27:27
crazy. And they say, no, no, make sure you steal
27:30
it from her or hide the rolls so that she cannot
27:32
find them. Because it's more blue than it is
27:35
white after she's done with the house. So she's
27:38
definitely elevated the quality. And what I have
27:42
seen in our teams, they feel that it's justified,
27:45
that it is, in fact, good for us to elevate the
27:50
quality. They are teams that also grow with us.
27:54
We're not just growing without them. They're
27:56
growing with us, both in terms of the amount
27:59
of business that they get from us, but also their
28:03
quality. They look back and say, wow, remember
28:06
that house when we did this? That wasn't probably
28:09
the best job. look at this, look how much we've
28:11
improved. They see that themselves and they're
28:14
also equally committed to that. And there's ways
28:18
in which we've fostered those values and why
28:22
we think very similarly or they think similarly
28:25
to us. In terms of the purchase, so what was
28:28
really interesting is that we had a buyer. We
28:32
had a profile in mind when we were building the
28:35
house. So Laura is in charge of the design and
28:39
all the aesthetics and all the finishes. But
28:42
when it comes to functionality and layout, that
28:45
is a 50 -50 collaboration. So the layouts of
28:48
the homes, the dimensions, the spaces, the trade
28:52
-offs. Do we do more living versus more terrace?
28:56
How deep should the garage be? Things like that.
28:59
We do it together. He just sold a new construction
29:05
home, it was a single story, to this buyer who
29:10
has a very loud personality. He's always surrounded
29:16
by people. His house, that house is 8 ,000 square
29:19
feet, 6 ,000 of living, and he made it feel small.
29:23
He had three kids, but he had always an entourage.
29:25
And I remember going to visit his house. He would
29:29
call us over. There was a warrant here just to
29:31
say hello. And I said, wow, this man cannot fit
29:34
these many cars. I can't believe that this house
29:36
really doesn't feel like it meets all its needs.
29:39
So as we were building this home, we always refer
29:43
back to him as an example, kind of almost a symbolic
29:48
example of that profile. If we were to build
29:51
a perfect home for that family, it would have
29:53
needed to be bigger. Certainly two stories, so
29:56
his family has the second floor, and the first
29:59
floor is more for his business dealings. And
30:01
we should have a bigger driveway, and we should
30:04
think about this, and we should think about that.
30:06
And so slowly but surely, we're building this
30:09
house, almost talking about this buyer being
30:14
a reflection of our previous buyer. So lo and
30:18
behold, maybe about nine months before we finished
30:22
construction, our former buyer approaches us
30:26
to know what we're working on. And I said, I
30:29
can't believe that what we've been talking about
30:31
almost, you know, just internally is manifesting
30:35
into reality. So we should have talked with him
30:39
and said, well, we have a house that we're a
30:42
little coy about it. We think we work for you.
30:44
And we brought him to the office. We showed him
30:46
the plans and we walk him through the entire
30:49
floor plan. As we're walking and explaining the
30:51
floor plan, we were highlighting all the things
30:54
that the other house that he was living in didn't
30:56
have. Mind you, that house is beautiful. It's
30:59
great. It's a replica of our home, pretty much.
31:02
But for his needs, it just felt small. So he
31:06
was like, wow, that's fantastic. Boy, I wish
31:08
I had that in my house. Say, yeah, no, and then
31:11
you have this and you have that. And for example,
31:13
we had a room for the nanny in the two -story
31:16
home. or the living nanny that was separate from
31:19
the rest of the family that had a separate independent
31:21
entrance. And we have made those decisions. We
31:25
had the two laundries with the elevator right
31:27
next to them so that if you wanted to do the
31:30
loads upstairs and downstairs, you have to walk
31:33
around the house to do it. There are all these
31:35
functional decisions that were driving this.
31:37
So he loved it. He's like, great, let's go and
31:40
see it. And then Laura said, no, not so fast.
31:44
So it's not done. and everything is painted,
31:46
you're not going to see it because you're not
31:48
going to see it at its best. And there were still
31:50
at least six months left to go. And six months
31:54
later, we are ninety nine point nine percent
31:56
ready. We staged the home just for him. So we
32:01
spent a considerable amount. We staged it sooner
32:03
than we would have. Yes. So we could show the
32:05
house in it. You know, but even even with the
32:09
prospect of him saying, I'll take it, don't bother
32:12
buying furniture. We still don't want that. We
32:15
wanted him to understand how the spaces felt
32:17
with a fully furnished and we fully furnished
32:20
every single room. It's not like one bedroom
32:23
and imagine the rest, everything. And he could
32:26
he was naming kids names, you know, such and
32:29
such is going to sleep here, such as is going
32:31
to sleep over there. He was imagining his life
32:34
over there. And that very next day morning, we
32:39
got an offer from him. He said, not only do I
32:44
love your house, not only do I love what you
32:46
guys do, I love working with you guys. And to
32:49
us, that was the biggest compliment because it
32:52
validated all the effort and so many levels,
32:56
whether it was a design, the quality of construction
32:58
or the personal touch and the service that we
33:01
provided over the one year warranty that he felt
33:04
very comfortable and love the idea of transacting
33:08
with us again. So we had one buyer buy two new
33:12
constructions from us and that's why I didn't
33:14
make it to market. That was his only precondition
33:17
is I want to be the first one to see it and we
33:20
honor that. I think it's amazing. So one that
33:23
8 ,000 square feet can feel small. How big was
33:27
this house? The original one was 8 ,000 total
33:30
and this one is 10 ,000 total. And second, kudos
33:35
to you because, you know, in commercial we always
33:37
say you really have to understand your client,
33:40
the needs, the pressure points. You guys really
33:44
did a deep dive into him. You saw the client.
33:48
You saw how this beautiful home that should have
33:52
been enough wasn't. And you basically custom
33:55
built him a home because you took the time to
33:59
discover those insights. So that's amazing. I
34:02
haven't. seen that approach before from a residential
34:06
builder. So that's awesome that you did that.
34:09
Well, I think it's just incredible that you were
34:11
thinking of him all the time, even before he
34:14
brought it up to you and that you were thinking
34:15
about functionality from putting yourself in
34:19
his shoes and that. You know, you end up building
34:22
him at home without both of you knowing it. You
34:25
know, I think that's incredible. So Laura, settle
34:28
a bet for us. We have a lot of clients that walk
34:31
into a space and they, you know, instantly can
34:34
envision the space being totally different. And
34:39
then we have people that get stuck and the dynamics
34:42
don't work. This, you know, where am I going
34:45
to put my this all that? So is that something
34:48
that you're born with? have that ability to to
34:51
have that vision when you walk into a place that
34:54
it's going to look totally different in your
34:56
mind than than it is in person on plan. So I
35:00
think there's definitely it's it's innate in
35:03
the sense that you you definitely if you're born
35:06
with it, you can do it from the beginning. But
35:08
I think you could train. your mind for it. So,
35:12
for example, Jose didn't have that, but after
35:16
doing 30 homes, now we can go into a house that
35:19
has a horrible layout and he can see it, right?
35:24
Right? Yes. Let me qualify that, right? She is
35:33
Michael Jordan. Maybe she's building me up into
35:36
like a Scottie Pippen kind of thing. I'm never
35:39
going to be Laura. I still, I still admire her.
35:42
There's all these, there's these moments where
35:44
she sees something that it wouldn't have occurred
35:47
to me. Not even, not even, oh, now I understand.
35:51
I wouldn't even have her occur to me. And just
35:53
like a true, I call her, you're a real CEO. Because
35:56
just when I think I have got every angle covered,
36:00
and I've thought of everything, you, you come
36:03
in and in five minutes, you show me the three
36:05
things that I didn't think of. And it happens
36:08
with the numbers. Oh, did you think about this
36:10
cost when I showing her a business case behind
36:12
an investment? So, wow, only you can come up
36:15
with the one thing. Look, I've spent hours in
36:17
this, but that one blind spot she covers every
36:21
single time. She has the ability to go inside.
36:24
I think I've developed the ability to think about
36:27
layouts. And when I meet with the prospective
36:29
clients, I usually already take at least a stab
36:33
at a layup unless it's too difficult. And I say,
36:35
Laura, I will need your help. She sees past the
36:39
layout already into the design Heights lights
36:43
tones Yeah in a very complete way and ways in
36:47
which my brain can can function that many layers
36:50
I have to paint a layer at a time. She's seeing
36:52
multiple layers from the beginning. Well and
36:55
what I love about Laura's designs is that a lot
36:59
of times I'm frustrated with architects because
37:02
they do something because it sounds good but
37:06
functionally it just doesn't work. All of your
37:09
spaces are not only extremely beautiful, extremely,
37:15
I wanna say they're tasteful because they're
37:19
very luxurious, but they're not over the top.
37:22
They're calming, the feeling that you get. I
37:25
mean, you just do a marvelous job and there's
37:27
no wasted space. I hate walking into a space
37:31
and going. Why did they design that hallway?
37:35
It's like total dead space. So kudos to you for
37:39
that. Your architectural background definitely
37:42
shows in that. And the fact that your ego doesn't
37:45
take over, right? And say, oh, well, this would
37:47
be something cool to put in there, even though
37:49
it doesn't work. And working with clients, it's
37:52
different, too, because... You have to listen
37:55
to their needs and incorporate that. And ultimately,
37:58
they have to make the decision of what they want
38:00
to do. You can present the different ideas. When
38:02
it's our homes, it's easier because I get to
38:06
do what I want. But we actually have, through
38:10
the years, we have developed a book of standards.
38:14
So we have basically already certain measures
38:19
that we know are our standards, especially when
38:22
it comes to kitchen, bathrooms, that we know
38:25
that if we don't follow the minimum of those
38:29
standards, it's not gonna be functional. It's
38:32
gonna be uncomfortable. It's just gonna feel
38:34
weird. So for us, for me, even though I care
38:39
about how it looks, the beauty of it, I also
38:41
care about functionality a lot, because you have
38:45
to have a comfortable home at the end of the
38:47
day. I was going to mention because this is actually
38:49
very interesting. We have worked with about six
38:53
or seven architects, especially as we were starting.
38:56
And a lot of architects, and this is not an indictment
38:59
on every architect. I'm just speaking in very
39:01
general terms. But most architects know the code
39:05
very well and for some reason tend to design
39:07
to certain minimums. So you'll see, you know,
39:11
toilets at 30 inch wide because that's a minimum
39:14
and it's what they use. but men like wider toilets
39:18
or wider space. So if we can afford to have a
39:21
slightly wider toilet, we would. So we go for
39:24
34 or 36. There's all these minimums that they
39:28
love to play with. And in the first few homes,
39:31
when we were playing and our hands were being
39:34
held by the architect, a lot of these plans had
39:36
some of these decisions that we didn't really
39:39
fully understand because they're really more
39:41
at the discretion of the consumer. Nothing says
39:44
that you have to have 30 inch toilet space, you
39:47
can have 50 inch. So some of these decisions
39:49
should be discussed. Fast forward to this year,
39:53
we took a giant leap of faith and we hire our
39:59
own in -house architect. So we truly became design
40:03
and build the moment that we brought in a licensed
40:05
architect to work with us. She's with us full
40:08
time. She has her own office inside our home,
40:10
which is really cool. She shares all of our values.
40:14
great work ethic and understands what we're trying
40:17
to do. And the architectural face of all of our
40:22
projects follows a very, it almost feels like
40:25
a very collaborative. What we wish we had had
40:28
when we were in their shoes, which is we actually
40:32
sit down and we say, okay, let's talk about light
40:35
switches. We're not racing and rushing to submit
40:37
to the city. Like it feels like every architect
40:40
is just like, hey, when are the plants ready?
40:41
When do we submit? Those are really the two questions.
40:44
Those are the last questions we ask. We say,
40:47
OK, where would you like to have a host bit?
40:50
Let's go around your house. Where do you see
40:51
yourself needing to plug in a host? That happens
40:54
to be an afterthought. Where do you want the
40:56
motion lights? Keep in mind, if you put them
40:58
in the corner right next to your bedroom, the
41:01
light will go off if a raccoon walks in the night.
41:04
Do you want that beaming light inside your bedroom?
41:07
Where do you want to turn on the switches? Do
41:08
you want a three -way light switch or just so
41:11
all these little Important details, we walk them
41:16
through sheet by sheet. We walk our clients and
41:20
we educate them. They've never seen a mechanical
41:22
sheet. We explain it to them. Here's where the
41:24
AC, this is why you need a return. So they all
41:27
come out understanding the plans and really signing
41:30
off on the full set. Not just, you know, I promise
41:33
for a layout. And that has really changed how
41:37
we see architecture. It's functionality driven.
41:42
It's not a race that we need to get it right,
41:44
because once you build a home, that's it. That's
41:46
what you're stuck with. It's a very thoughtful
41:49
process. And having the architect in house allows
41:55
us to also work faster. So we can spend more
41:59
time in the things that matter. But then between
42:01
those rounds, we can already deliver the updated
42:04
plans a lot faster, too. So the conversation.
42:08
it moves faster and then obviously we get to
42:11
applying for permits sooner as well. I love it.
42:14
I can't wait for you to take your talents to
42:16
the commercial sector because I'm sure that's
42:20
right around the corner. I wanted to ask you
42:23
just because of the way you two are, you're so
42:27
thoughtful and you're approaching, you know,
42:30
you really these walks, you started to envision
42:33
how you could take something that you are passionate
42:36
about, that you're talented. you know, about
42:39
and build a business out of it for those that
42:43
are listening to us that are dreaming of starting
42:46
their own business or they're in the process
42:48
of doing so. You know, are there a few lessons
42:51
that you wish you would have known, you know,
42:53
back 10 years when you started things that maybe
42:56
were limiting beliefs or, you know, just things
43:00
that you wish you would have you would have known,
43:02
you know, back 10 years ago when you started
43:04
this venture? That's a wonderful question. I'll
43:09
let you start. Oh really? He wants to know the
43:13
answer too. Well, I think the most important
43:18
thing is whatever you decide to do, what your
43:20
idea is, you have to be very passionate about
43:23
and it's going to have to be something that you
43:26
see yourself doing for a long time. In the hard
43:29
times, because in the easy times everyone can
43:32
do it, but in the hard times too, that you still
43:34
have to believe in it and you have to believe
43:36
in yourself. that you're going to be able to
43:37
get through it and that you believe in yourself
43:40
enough to really invest that time and take that
43:45
risk. But if you love what you do, it's easier.
43:49
Now, I'm not going to say it feels like I love
43:51
what I do. I'm not working. It doesn't feel like
43:54
I'm working, like people say. I am working every
43:57
day, but I am enjoying it. There's harder times,
44:01
there's easier times, but it's the reality of
44:05
it. But I think you have to really love it, and
44:08
also you have to be very open and flexible to
44:13
adapt to change. Because like Jose said, our
44:16
business has evolved, right? It has taken us
44:19
to places that we hadn't considered before when
44:21
we started. So you have to always be open, looking
44:25
for opportunities, and adapt. Because things
44:30
like what happened with COVID, it required...
44:33
being able to adapt. That's why unfortunately
44:35
a lot of businesses didn't make it. And I think
44:38
that's one thing that comes to mind first. Did
44:42
you have time to think? No, I would say, I don't
44:45
know if there is something that I wish I knew
44:47
before. I feel very proud of our evolution. And
44:51
I think we actually approached this with a very
44:55
humble mindset of we don't know anything. So
44:58
the first home that we did, the first remodel
45:01
that we did, It was very basic. It was a kitchen,
45:06
laminate flooring, paint job. There were probably
45:10
1970s windows that we spray painted the frame.
45:14
We didn't even understand the whole world of
45:16
impact and the roof didn't need to be changed
45:19
and neither did the AC. So we first started on
45:22
the most basic of building blocks and we always
45:25
had that attitude. You have to learn to crawl
45:28
before you walk and to walk before you run. Does
45:31
anybody coming into this needs to respect that
45:35
the information, the sea of information and construction
45:39
is vast? The number of things do you have to
45:42
learn? It's almost too much in one lifetime.
45:47
Every project, every day I learn something new.
45:49
Even after 10 years, there isn't a single project
45:52
I walk into that I know exactly how it's gonna
45:54
go. And clients have that expectation. It's like,
45:58
well, I thought you knew that we had to move
45:59
the cable, you know, the AT &T fiber line before
46:04
you had to do the addition. So, well, you know,
46:06
I was more worried about your foundation and
46:08
other bigger things. But there are things that
46:10
I'm like, OK, note to self, look for the AT &T
46:13
wire next time I walk into a client property.
46:15
That's just a silly example. But going little
46:18
by little, also always start smaller. And I would
46:22
say if I were to tell myself or somebody wanting
46:25
to start. Always start small and grow. Don't
46:29
try to do something very expensive or very hard
46:32
because when you miss, there are risks that you
46:36
miss. The bigger the product, the bigger the
46:40
miss or the bigger the reward. But you need to
46:43
learn to first master the basics before you move
46:47
on to bigger and more complex things. Being an
46:52
investor, is an entirely different role than
46:57
being a contractor. Even though both hats were
47:02
doing home improvement or home building, it is
47:05
not the same skill set. It is not the same role
47:09
for me to build something for Laura as a client
47:13
than to build something for so -and -so as a
47:16
client. Those are very different skills, have
47:19
almost nothing to do with each other. her experience
47:22
as a designer is completely wildly different.
47:25
In our homes, she actually gets to experience
47:28
her design to her heart's content, no compromises,
47:33
no need to convince. It's just her, it's a conversation
47:36
between herself and herself and what she wants
47:38
is what we get. There's always a budget. There's
47:42
always a budget. But with clients, you have to...
47:48
welcome through, they don't have her mind. So
47:51
you have to have renderings, you have to have
47:53
sessions. And most importantly, you have to have
47:57
patience. This is a business of patience everywhere.
48:01
Patience with a subcontractor that didn't do
48:05
a good job. Patience with a difficult client.
48:08
Patience with a difficult reviewer. Patience
48:11
with many, many things. Be comfortable when you
48:14
lose money, because not everything is going to
48:17
be uh roses right and that's that's i think one
48:21
of those reflections that i wouldn't change anything
48:25
about the way we do things i think we approach
48:27
everything very responsibly and in the natural
48:30
progression of things you can't force things
48:33
you have to let things come to you naturally
48:35
Yeah, you guys grew very organically. Throughout
48:39
our conversation, a couple of words you've mentioned
48:41
several times. One is functional and one is collaborative.
48:45
So I wanted to read a quote from your website.
48:49
Quote, creating spaces that feel personal and
48:52
beautifully functional throughout thoughtful
48:54
design standards, collaborative processes, and
48:57
strong communication. Porta Negra continues to
49:00
redefine what it means to build with integrity,
49:03
purpose, and style. I think that sums you guys
49:06
up so beautifully. And in commercial, we deal
49:11
with a lot less of the emotional. It's a lot
49:14
more the cold contracts, the numbers, et cetera.
49:18
So you guys have obviously started working. Your
49:23
progression has led you to work with high net
49:25
worth and ultra high net worth individuals. How
49:29
has helping them build their dream homes, whether
49:33
it's designed by you guys because you're figuring
49:36
out what their needs are, how does your collaborative
49:41
process help shield them from the chaos that
49:45
you guys experience as the developers and with
49:47
the permadean and everything else? I think that's
49:50
definitely something they appreciate about working
49:52
with us because we, I think, The most important
49:58
thing is building trust, first of all. That's,
50:02
I think, what our clients appreciate about us.
50:05
Trust that we're doing what's in their best interest,
50:08
that we're recommending the best solutions, and
50:12
that we're doing our best in whatever we do.
50:14
No matter we encounter issues, we're still trying
50:16
our best. So I think being able to have established
50:21
that trust from the beginning is very important
50:23
in that relationship. because anything you do
50:26
when it comes to a collaboration, then you're
50:28
both sitting on the same side of the table. And
50:31
just really understanding and listening to their
50:34
needs and their wants and being able to offer
50:38
that to them, as opposed to just being like,
50:40
oh, no, no, here, you should put this, you should
50:43
put that. Some people have very strong ideas
50:46
of what they think a client should do. But I
50:49
think it's important to have listened and be
50:51
able to... incorporate that. At least from my
50:55
side of things, I think that's important to spend
50:58
time with them, really spend time explaining
51:00
the plans, explaining why things work, why things
51:03
don't work, and helping them really through making
51:09
decisions, right? So they understand the whys,
51:12
the advantages, disadvantages of different options
51:15
that we might be presenting, and always kind
51:19
of being able to put ourselves in their shoes.
51:22
We've been in that situation, so it's helpful
51:25
when, because we know what they're going through,
51:29
like the psychology of a remodel is, you know,
51:31
it's a roller coaster of emotions. So understanding
51:34
that, understanding, like basically we've seen
51:37
already patterns throughout the, throughout,
51:41
you know, a project. So being able to be there
51:45
for them through those moments, I think with
51:48
a lot of honesty. It's also part of why this
51:52
collaborative aspect of the relationship works
51:55
very well. I think on the execution side, we
51:58
spoiled our clients with communication. We over
52:02
communicate so that they know that we are working
52:06
on their projects all the time, that we don't
52:09
just disappear and move on to another project.
52:12
So at a very minimum, and we've implemented new
52:16
processes and new methods of doing this. Now,
52:20
when the plans get approved, so she kind of described
52:22
a little bit more of how do you collaborate with
52:25
them in design, which is a little bit more ambiguous
52:27
and amorphous, and how you get to that. When
52:30
it's about execution, it's all about explaining,
52:33
communicating, and delivering. And if you don't
52:35
deliver, being upfront and honest and say, hey,
52:38
so -and -so was sick, or we thought this would
52:40
take three days, it took five days. But we showed
52:42
up. We misjudged the complexity. The first thing
52:46
we do after plans get approved is now we have
52:49
a kickoff meeting. So we do a kickoff presentation.
52:52
We have three project managers. So whoever is
52:56
managing that project, helping me manage that
52:57
project comes with me to the meeting. And we
53:00
talked about things that might feel like common
53:03
sense, but they've never been through that. So
53:06
I don't take it for granted that some of this
53:08
information might be new or maybe just something
53:11
that was not at the forefront of their mind because
53:14
You know, wife could be thinking about the bathroom
53:16
design. The husband could be thinking about the
53:20
other kitchen with the grill. And neither is
53:23
thinking that for the next eight months, there's
53:25
going to be strangers walking through their backyard
53:27
with a porta potty on the side of the house and
53:31
a dumpster parked on their driveway. So here
53:33
I come and say, hey, before the functions, I
53:36
say, you know, let's get excited. Permits have
53:39
been approved. we made it you know and they're
53:42
all excited yeah when can we start i was like
53:43
well before we start let me just tell you what
53:46
starting really feels like so we walk them through
53:49
this kickoff and it's sort of a way to regulate
53:52
uh the expectation and the emotions i say hey
53:56
there's gonna be noise there's gonna be dust
53:58
all of that but it's not all doom and gloom there's
54:01
all the all the nice things that we also talk
54:03
about And we show them pictures of the shell
54:05
and say, there's all these inspections, the inspections
54:08
that we educate them. Inspections are to make
54:10
sure that we're putting what's on the structural
54:11
plan so that your house is built the way the
54:14
engineer intended it to be built. Oh, that's
54:16
great. And as soon as we pass an inspection,
54:19
you'll be the first one to find out. And then
54:21
we also have every single week we do a weekly
54:26
update. That is a requirement that I have for
54:29
my project managers. It's a non -negotiable.
54:32
And we have a group text or a text group where
54:37
you have Laura and myself. So you have the owners
54:39
of the company, you have the project manager,
54:41
and then you also have the architect. So you
54:43
have four people that you can text to for answers.
54:47
And we all know which, depending on what the
54:49
question is, who needs to step in. And most often
54:53
than not, we provide an answer within the same
54:55
day. We don't ignore a text. We try to calm the
55:00
anxieties by providing an answer. Again, we spoil
55:02
them. And we try to do that. So every week a
55:05
client knows what is going to be done on their
55:08
home, what inspections are supposed to take place.
55:11
And when we pass those inspections, they get
55:13
notifications and we all celebrate together.
55:16
So our chats are all emojis and laughs and smiles
55:21
and fingers crossed and things like that. And
55:26
when something doesn't go well, we are very upfront
55:30
and honest about it. We were not perfect. We
55:33
actually, that is a slight, we're not perfect.
55:35
I know you're contracted for Tanegra because
55:37
you see the end result. You see the outcome of
55:41
many, many months of work and effort and rework.
55:45
I said, when you're living in the house, which
55:48
we have quite a few clients that live in the
55:50
house while we're doing an audition. That's a
55:52
whole nother podcast. You basically have a front
55:57
seat to the sausage being me. I tell you, you
56:00
have front row seats. You're going to see the
56:01
problem before I see it. Don't call me and say,
56:04
hey, I can't believe they forgot this piece of
56:07
rebar. I said, well, I just haven't gotten into
56:09
your house. You live in the house. You're going
56:10
to beat me every time. You wake up, you're at
56:13
the job site. But that is why we put this together,
56:17
because we wanted them to feel that we have good
56:21
control over what's going to happen. And even
56:23
when it feels chaotic because they have never
56:25
seen it, it isn't. It is a plan. It is deliberate.
56:30
It is normal. We try to set the right expectation
56:33
with them. So most of our clients feel very well
56:37
communicated throughout the whole process. And
56:40
we tell them, you don't have to talk to any of
56:41
our subs. If you have any questions or worries,
56:45
the people to come to is either myself, Laura,
56:48
or your project manager. We're the ones here
56:50
to help you. You don't have to deal with whatever
56:54
they're doing. If you're feeling concerns about
56:58
X or Y or something that doesn't feel like it's
57:01
coming out right, you can tell us. We're here
57:03
to fix it and make things right. Well, thank
57:06
you so much for joining us. I love the communication
57:09
and execution theme throughout our conversation
57:13
today and congratulations on building a business
57:19
and on your partnership. proven that for a business
57:23
to survive for a whole decade, that it takes
57:27
a shared vision and a relentless focus on execution.
57:30
I think you guys embody that. I love your projects.
57:34
I love seeing you grow from the beginning to
57:38
where you are now. And I thank you so much for
57:41
sharing all of your insights with our listeners.
57:43
Say bye, Fernando. No, thank you guys. We're
57:50
not doing that. No, thank you guys so much. I
57:55
think this is the I mean, this is an episode
57:58
that is chock full of lessons. You know, one
58:00
of the last things that you mentioned there is
58:03
it's all about value and really the, you know,
58:06
the culture that you build in your company and
58:09
the values that you uphold. You can only say
58:12
that you value something when you do it consistently.
58:16
and when it really is, you know, a priority.
58:18
And it looks like you guys certainly have the
58:21
right values in mind when it comes to serving
58:23
the public. So it's a pleasure to have you here.
58:26
Thank you guys for joining us. Thank you so much.
58:29
Thank you for the invitation. Yes, it is our
58:32
pleasure and so very lovely to have you both
58:35
here in this episode of Between Two Chairs. So
58:38
for Jennifer and I, we bid you adieu. Say goodbye,
58:43
Jennifer. Goodbye, Fernando.