Latest / The Other 22 Hours / Mary Gauthier on the business mindset of an artist, art as recovery, and owning a clam shack.

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Mary Gauthier on the business mindset of an artist, art as recovery, and owning a clam shack. · The Other 22 Hours

0:00
[SPEAKER_02]: The business says more is better.
0:01
[SPEAKER_02]: My soul says great is better.
0:04
[SPEAKER_02]: If I give you 20 songs and none of them are great, I'm not proud of that.
0:08
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't give you one great one.
0:11
[SPEAKER_02]: And that takes time from me and that's in opposition to the business.
0:18
[SPEAKER_01]: We often define artists by their output.
0:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Their records, books, movies and the times they're on stage.
0:25
[SPEAKER_00]: But the art is made in the quiet, the struggle, and the mundane, the hours that no one sees.
0:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm McKayla Ann.
0:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm Erin Kaffer-Hase.
0:34
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the other 22 hours.
0:35
[SPEAKER_01]: An exploration of the creative life lived in between.
0:53
[SPEAKER_01]: This week is week three of our reissue series where we've dug back through our archive of the past three years and chosen some of our favorite conversations to re-share with you.
1:02
[SPEAKER_01]: No, we are highlighting a few of these, please know that we have 160 other conversations.
1:07
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you're on a long drive or mowing your lawn this summer, please take a second to scroll back through our feed and see what artists or musicians inspire you every conversation is great in its own way.
1:18
[SPEAKER_01]: in addition, you can head to our YouTube channel where we've grouped every single conversation into curated playlists based on topic.
1:25
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you like this one, there are many more just like it waiting for you.
1:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And today's episode is a reissue of our conversation with Mary Goshe from August 16th, 2023.
1:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Mary Goshe is a Grammy-nominated songwriter and author who songs have been recorded by everyone from Tim McGraw and Blake Shelton to Boy George and Jimmy Buffett.
1:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Mary Goshe is one of those people that just is a wise sage.
1:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Every time I get to talk to her, I carry a new nugget of wisdom.
1:55
[SPEAKER_00]: She should have a bumper sticker business to be honest.
1:57
[SPEAKER_01]: We mentioned it in the conversation, even.
1:59
[SPEAKER_00]: But patience and art persistence in business is one of the key takeaways from this conversation and from Mary Goshe's life and career.
2:08
[SPEAKER_00]: With that, I hope you enjoy our conversation with Mary Goshe.
2:14
[SPEAKER_01]: when we were doing some research on your past before we had this conversation saw that you went to culinary school and you had a second attempt at opening a restaurant when you started writing songs, is that correct?
2:26
[SPEAKER_02]: I was in the restaurant business for many years and had three different restaurants going at one time in the Boston area.
2:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Opening night of the second restaurant, I was arrested for drunk driving and that was July 12th, 1990.
2:43
[SPEAKER_02]: So I got sober and stayed sober.
2:46
[SPEAKER_02]: So July 13th, 2023, which was last week, was my 33rd anniversary of being sober.
2:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Congratulations.
2:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
2:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so over with the help of the doorchester Massachusetts Police Department, they got my attention.
3:03
[SPEAKER_02]: And definitely you needed to get into recovery.
3:07
[SPEAKER_02]: So what happened was I was in culinary school with my first restaurant.
3:14
[SPEAKER_02]: My partners and investors were sending me at culinary school when all this happened.
3:18
[SPEAKER_02]: So I've opened the second restaurant, got arrested, got sober, finished culinary school, stayed sober, and started writing songs.
3:27
[SPEAKER_02]: And I guess it was 2001 when I came to Nashville.
3:32
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's sober and 90, came to Nashville in 2001 as a songwriter.
3:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Those 11 years were spent in restaurants, early sobriety, and playing open mics, and doing 12-step recovery work to get stabilized.
3:46
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm learning how to live without drugs and alcohol.
3:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was songwriting part of that.
3:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Was your recovery and journey in that kind of a catalyst to start writing?
3:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Was it like a means of processing?
3:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Was it just, hey, I love songs.
4:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I have these things to say.
4:02
[SPEAKER_01]: What was the catalyst for all of that?
4:03
[SPEAKER_02]: It gave me purpose.
4:05
[SPEAKER_02]: I found myself falling in love with writing songs and learning how to be a better songwriter and falling out of love with the kitchens and the cooking and the restaurants.
4:17
[SPEAKER_02]: I was really passionate about that for a while.
4:20
[SPEAKER_02]: But the music and the songs became much more important to me.
4:24
[SPEAKER_02]: It was a process not an event.
4:26
[SPEAKER_02]: They traded places gradually, and music and song very much became a part of my recovery.
4:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Using the art form to make sense of my own life and my struggles and
4:38
[SPEAKER_02]: and my own heart, my own soul, and the world around me.
4:42
[SPEAKER_02]: It consumed me and became the thing that mattered most to me.
4:47
[SPEAKER_02]: And I knew that they would come a point, and their did come a point, where I would have to choose to be in the restaurant business or to be a songwriter, and I decided over time that I'm going to give this a go, this music thing, and came to Nashville.
5:01
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think that I probably would have stayed sober.
5:05
[SPEAKER_02]: if I didn't have this feeling of real deep purpose around what I do as an artist.
5:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And that purpose of part of your recovery, how much is also a part of connecting with others with sharing the story versus the process of forming your feelings and making sense of your experiences through writing a song.
5:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the separate element of the experience of sharing that song and what that
5:34
[SPEAKER_02]: See, that's a big part of it, is to deliver the art to the people and get the reaction and the response and to receive their stories and really important to me to become a member of a community of other songwriters and to be accepted as one of them and embraced and respected.
5:53
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a huge, big deal to me.
5:55
[SPEAKER_02]: I just found myself reinventing myself after I got sober.
6:04
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to figure out what got you lost and how to get out of the woods and then what to do with yourself.
6:11
[SPEAKER_00]: The restaurant world can also be known for a lot of drug and alcohol use and late nights.
6:18
[SPEAKER_00]: It can be a challenging environment.
6:19
[SPEAKER_00]: to keep sobriety and stay on a path.
6:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you find that at all?
6:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And then what transitioning to a musician's life and the lifestyle of being on the road and becoming a full-time touring musician?
6:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Were there any challenges that came with that new lifestyle?
6:35
[SPEAKER_02]: I had a little breakfast and sandwich shop.
6:38
[SPEAKER_02]: It was my first restaurant.
6:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Muffins, Danish scones, coffee, bagels, and there was no alcohol above.
6:45
[SPEAKER_02]: My second restaurant, the landlord was the Christian science church in Boston.
6:49
[SPEAKER_02]: So we were right next door.
6:50
[SPEAKER_02]: There was no alcohol, okay, in my restaurant.
6:54
[SPEAKER_02]: The customers brought their own ported and cups under the table, but I didn't have a bar at the restaurant.
7:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And my third restaurant was a clam shack on the beach, so we served the little league ball games, and people that were going to the beach.
7:08
[SPEAKER_02]: And so none of these were deeply embedded in the well-known restaurant culture of late night drinking after the rush.
7:15
[SPEAKER_02]: So I didn't have that to deal with.
7:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And because I'm a folk singer, I tend to play coffee houses and churches and theaters,
7:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not a bar at, and never was.
7:25
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't have the chops for one.
7:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't play cover songs ever.
7:30
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't have a band.
7:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Really I'm a folk singer.
7:33
[SPEAKER_02]: I tell stories and generally play solo.
7:37
[SPEAKER_02]: So the transition was, it wasn't a challenge for me in my recovery.
7:41
[SPEAKER_02]: curry per se but the road life can be a challenge just because of trying to burn off the adrenaline after the show and it gets lonely and I have to find ways to maintain my stability out there.
7:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Early on I started gone to gyms in different towns finding the local swimming pool.
8:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Usually there's a city pool where you could go swim laps.
8:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Finding ways to do things that were not self-destructive.
8:11
[SPEAKER_02]: It's up to me to engage in that and it takes planning.
8:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Once I got sober, I was just really serious about it.
8:18
[SPEAKER_02]: And I've never, in these 33 years, ever had a moment where I thought I was gonna destroy my sobriety.
8:27
[SPEAKER_02]: I have a lot of support, a lot of other musicians, a lot of other songwriters, a lot of people that I've met in 12-step programs that we stay in touch with each other, and I've had a real good go of it with a network of people around the world that are interested in recovery.
8:45
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's one of the great things about recovery is you get a community and you get introduced in a really intimate way to other people who are trying to survive something that wants to kill them.
8:57
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a blessing to me that this is what recovery is made of.
9:02
[SPEAKER_02]: It's made of community and support and people that will take your call anytime and night.
9:06
[SPEAKER_02]: That's how it's worked for me.
9:07
[SPEAKER_02]: That's probably why I have this longevity.
9:10
[SPEAKER_00]: That's something I would want to point out for if anybody who is listening to this is contemplating sobriety or trying to make that change is that neither of us are sober, but we both had times in our lives where we stopped drinking a longer period of time for Erin, but where we both
9:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Decided we need to be sober for a bit to re-address our relationship to alcohol and drugs And I remember especially of being Aaron's partner Observing his process and I won't speak for him, but hearing just how lonely it can feel in the beginning And like you said being on tour and having to find new activities are Main activity is not going to the bar anymore.
9:52
[SPEAKER_00]: We also have a two-year-old so we don't do that
9:56
[SPEAKER_00]: as much.
9:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I'm changing your life right there.
9:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, very much so that another example, when you have a big life change and you can feel this big loss of the people that you were used to hang you know with and the friendships that you had that were maybe bonded over hanging out of the bar drinking or whatever and it can feel scary and feel like, oh no, I'm going to lose all these people in this and to remember for an example like what you gave of the incredible
10:25
[SPEAKER_00]: When you decide to commit to something like sobriety and find a support group and take the time and do the work to find the new activities that can enrich your life in an even healthier better way, but it's just such a big shift that I think it can be easy to focus on what you think you're losing by stopping something that is ultimately also incredibly harmful.
10:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, in that way, I'm grateful that I didn't have a choice.
10:54
[SPEAKER_02]: For me, it was either get sober or it was going to get worse.
10:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think on the jail for drunk driving was pretty bad.
11:00
[SPEAKER_02]: There was no end-in sight for me.
11:03
[SPEAKER_02]: I had to face the reality that I had a serious problem.
11:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And in a way, that's a gift.
11:09
[SPEAKER_02]: It had me,
11:10
[SPEAKER_02]: in a position where I couldn't deny any longer that I had to stop at whatever the cost, whatever I lost, I had to surrender it.
11:20
[SPEAKER_02]: And so recovery's been a real blessing for me.
11:24
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's opened up my life into this world of music and song.
11:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I never got on a stage when I was drinking.
11:31
[SPEAKER_02]: This all happened after I got sober.
11:33
[SPEAKER_02]: I never wrote songs.
11:34
[SPEAKER_02]: This is all.
11:36
[SPEAKER_02]: a byproduct of my recovery.
11:38
[SPEAKER_02]: So this whole new life as an artist outside of the restaurant in this new world, this creative world of music and song, came from being in recovery.
11:49
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know.
11:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd have to imagine it a little further, but if you had a lifestyle of hard drinking on the road as a musician and then we're asked to get sober, you have such an entrenched set of behaviors.
12:01
[SPEAKER_02]: That would be harder, I imagine.
12:02
[SPEAKER_01]: That was the experience that I have.
12:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't really tour much anymore.
12:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I spend most of my time in a studio and priest records and all, but when I started my long stretch of sobriety was on the road and was touring a lot and luckily the artist I was touring with.
12:18
[SPEAKER_01]: was sober.
12:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Nobody else in the band was, but working with an artist that was sober, everybody was sympathetic to it.
12:23
[SPEAKER_01]: So I actually didn't mind being on the road.
12:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Between soundtrack and the show was the hardest part, like after the show was cool, because it took me a second, I just feel like I'm going to bed.
12:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm tired.
12:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.
12:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm done with work.
12:38
[SPEAKER_01]: My body says I'm tired.
12:39
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to pay attention to that.
12:40
[SPEAKER_01]: On bed now, yeah, but it was the downtime.
12:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we had already loaded in.
12:44
[SPEAKER_01]: We had sound checked in the the downtime between the show was difficult.
12:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it was really being back in Nashville because I was so ingrained in that bar culture in Nashville.
12:53
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how I met everybody.
12:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I knew when we moved to town about 10 years ago, being at the bars meeting everybody.
12:58
[SPEAKER_01]: So coming back to Nashville and being sober, I lost a lot of friends.
13:04
[SPEAKER_01]: There were a lot of friends who were just, you know, coming to find out just drinking buddies essentially.
13:08
[SPEAKER_02]: They were friends and the bonding happened in a way that, you know, that's perfectly natural and normal for most people is you have a few drinks and you're talking hang out and then if you're not having the drinks you have to find other ways to connect with people that aren't at the bar.
13:25
[SPEAKER_02]: There's so many options, you know, I didn't know that until I was sober.
13:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.
13:33
[SPEAKER_01]: It's almost like having blinders on it.
13:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't think of any other like what else do you do?
13:37
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you do?
13:38
[SPEAKER_00]: You have someone to go with a drink.
13:40
[SPEAKER_00]: No, we could go on a walk.
13:42
[SPEAKER_00]: We could go on a bike ride, we could play a game.
13:47
[SPEAKER_02]: We could cook dinner and have folks over.
13:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
13:50
[SPEAKER_02]: You want a book club?
13:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Go to the movies.
13:53
[SPEAKER_02]: See people out out theater.
13:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's just so many alternatives that aren't on the drop down menu when you're drinking.
14:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I will say to, I think, in a musician life, it's such a specific thing because of the role that alcohol plays in the live music business.
14:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So, sobriety comes up a lot in these conversations we have because, you know, when you do start out playing at bars, you could pay an alcohol, I do want to jump forward.
14:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you started writing songs and after 11 years you said you moved to Nashville and started your career.
14:26
[SPEAKER_00]: you know.
14:27
[SPEAKER_00]: According to internet Wikipedia pages, the ones that list your accolades, it looks like your career just steadily started climbing.
14:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that what it has felt like or has it felt like ups and downs and twists and turns or has it felt like, oh, I'm just growing.
14:47
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm always looking forward, I rarely look back.
14:50
[SPEAKER_02]: There's been some real high moments, that's for sure, but I'm always looking forward and plotting and planning and scheming what I might want to be doing next.
15:00
[SPEAKER_02]: I think all careers kind of look like the stock market, up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down.
15:06
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's sometimes really big ups and sometimes really big downs.
15:11
[SPEAKER_02]: For me, the name of the game has always been to keep doing it, no matter what, keep doing it.
15:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And don't expect that what's happening now is going to always be happening, because that's not the way life works.
15:22
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot to deal with once you have success.
15:26
[SPEAKER_02]: There's an emotional expectation.
15:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Your heart expects it to always be like that, or to keep going that way.
15:32
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's not how life works.
15:34
[SPEAKER_02]: at some moment in time and now he got to go back to work.
15:37
[SPEAKER_02]: I remember at the Grammys walking out after I had been nominated and I did not win and John Pryne had been nominated and he did not win.
15:45
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was walking out of one door and he's walking out of the other door and we saw each other and we walked up to each other and gave each other a hug and said, well now what John he goes back to work.
15:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Hmm, there's just picture of us who kind of got our face against each other.
16:01
[SPEAKER_02]: It's one of the sweetest pictures.
16:02
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that.
16:03
[SPEAKER_02]: But he just went to lunch, and so did I.
16:06
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we just ended up, okay, that was wild.
16:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I wouldn't have ever imagined that.
16:12
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the cool things is I lost at the same time, John did.
16:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's great, you know.
16:18
[SPEAKER_02]: And back to work, expecting it always to be on an upswing is not realistic.
16:24
[SPEAKER_02]: For me, the joy and the challenge and the beauty and the horror of all this is that every day is different.
16:31
[SPEAKER_02]: going to be an artist every single day is different and every year is different and you're gross and you're net or different every night every week every month you play the exact same show and ten places you can pay differently every time you know it's just the way it works it is a swimming pendulum.
16:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Has anything over time helped you feel more comfortable with that instability for lack of a better word?
16:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they came up point.
16:58
[SPEAKER_02]: I was always afraid they would take it away from me.
17:00
[SPEAKER_02]: For a really long time, I thought that I was getting away with it, and that somebody was going to figure it out.
17:06
[SPEAKER_02]: It was all going to be taken away.
17:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And there came a point where I realized, I'm alive for.
17:10
[SPEAKER_02]: And now I don't think they can't take away.
17:12
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, they might be able to take it away in some places, but they can't take it away all over the world.
17:17
[SPEAKER_02]: I may not have, I don't know, New Orleans, but I have Baton Rouge.
17:21
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's just so many seeds that I've planted over so many record cycles and so many years.
17:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Some of them are growing and they'll continue to grow.
17:30
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't think it's gonna go away.
17:32
[SPEAKER_02]: I know it's not gonna go away.
17:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
17:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Not always going to grow sometimes it shrinks.
17:37
[SPEAKER_02]: There is a concern that comes with age, like am I going to age out?
17:40
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I look at my heroes and they're all a decade or more older than me.
17:44
[SPEAKER_02]: There's still work in.
17:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
17:45
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, they're sitting in chairs now with their work in, you know, they're not standing up anymore, but the chairs are fine.
17:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's the big deal is losing the fear of having it removed.
17:59
[SPEAKER_02]: gives me a sense of it's going to be okay.
18:01
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll just keep going.
18:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Just keep writing songs and it creates opportunities.
18:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I've always had that mentality too of the fear-based.
18:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Every time I make a record, I'm like, I'm never going to get to make a record again.
18:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, why not?
18:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I figured out how to use one, I'll figure out how to do another one, but you mentioned the fear of aging out and I had that as a note that I wanted to talk to you about with was age because the folk scene is one thing and I feel like it's a little different than like a larger music business mentality.
18:30
[SPEAKER_02]: But let's say ages, that's for sure.
18:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm really out of two is less ages.
18:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
18:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So thinking of not getting started until your 30.
18:38
[SPEAKER_00]: 40.
18:38
[SPEAKER_00]: 40.
18:38
[SPEAKER_00]: 40.
18:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
18:40
[SPEAKER_02]: I was 40 when I came to Nashville.
18:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
18:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Incredible.
18:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Was that ever in your mind of am I cool with this?
18:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
18:47
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm on my mind.
18:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Who's not to 40?
18:51
[SPEAKER_02]: But then I thought, what have I got to lose?
18:53
[SPEAKER_02]: I should be dead, given my behavior, and I didn't die, and I've got this decade plus one, 11 years sober.
19:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's give it a shot, and if I can't get traction, then I can always find investors and open another restaurant.
19:08
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm a trained chef, and I know how to talk to investors and come up with the business plan and present my ideas.
19:16
[SPEAKER_02]: So, if it all falls apart and this doesn't work, I'll do that.
19:20
[SPEAKER_02]: But I haven't had to.
19:21
[SPEAKER_02]: And we're coming in at 40 and starting at 40 is weird.
19:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's unusual.
19:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Most people are feeling really old in the music business at 40.
19:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you see more of an overlap between your history of owning restaurants and your music career?
19:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Whether it's the actual art of making food or designing a menu or something like that, or the aspect of running the business?
19:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you see any kind of overlap
19:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know, that's part of the joy of it for me is I'm a good business person.
19:51
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I've never had a better manager than me and I've had a lot of managers, big managers, but nobody cares more than I do.
19:59
[SPEAKER_02]: And I really like running the business part.
20:02
[SPEAKER_02]: I need help.
20:03
[SPEAKER_02]: I need advisors.
20:04
[SPEAKER_02]: I need staff.
20:06
[SPEAKER_02]: But my brain enjoys that part of being an artist and a lot of artists don't have that.
20:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's really what gave me a leg up.
20:15
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's one of the reasons I was able to come to Nashville at 40 and get a record deal and get a publishing deal and get an agent and get on the road.
20:24
[SPEAKER_02]: is because I understood how to talk to the business people in Nashville because I am a business person.
20:30
[SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of artists are really really focused and rightfully so on the art.
20:34
[SPEAKER_02]: I have to change hats, you know, today we're doing artists.
20:37
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not answering emails and I'm not taking calls and I'm writing today, you know, and next day I'm put on the hat and I'm telling people, yes, you're going to have to come up with a little bit more than that from me to come to England.
20:48
[SPEAKER_02]: It's doable.
20:49
[SPEAKER_02]: I try to do it on different days, but I enjoy having both hats.
20:53
[SPEAKER_02]: For me, I think that's an advantage.
20:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I like hearing that that you're like, I have to separate out on days, even sometimes.
20:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
21:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I find it really difficult to be like, jumping from something.
21:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, oh, I have an hour free.
21:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna try and write a song.
21:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I just get so mad at myself.
21:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, I can't write songs.
21:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, well, maybe because you're not,
21:11
[SPEAKER_02]: you're trying to like whip it off really quick in between meetings and like you know I've locked off time I mean I need real headspace to write well I need real headspace from the business and sometimes I can do it in hotel rooms because I'm not I'm not hammering away at the business I'm on the road and I have this downtime that we talked about earlier and if a day off on the road I'll just get a really nice hotel room with room service and sit at the desk and use it as a
21:40
[SPEAKER_01]: kind of siloing off the business in the art.
21:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you have that mindset coming in?
21:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Or is it something that you realized over time once you got into the music business?
21:49
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it happened organically because of the kind of songwriter that I am.
21:54
[SPEAKER_02]: It takes me a really long time to write a good song.
21:56
[SPEAKER_02]: I need a lot of headspace.
21:58
[SPEAKER_02]: I need solitude.
21:59
[SPEAKER_02]: I need not to be talking to anybody.
22:01
[SPEAKER_02]: I need to be
22:03
[SPEAKER_02]: in this zone and it takes me forever to get to the zone and getting to the zone is part of the process.
22:11
[SPEAKER_02]: It could take hours to get my brain to the zone where I am in my imagination and in my subconscious and not in, how's that doing?
22:22
[SPEAKER_02]: What did they reply to me about that offer in Pittsburgh or where's this person that they should have gotten back to me?
22:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't do all that.
22:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Shut all that down.
22:31
[SPEAKER_02]: to get to the zone.
22:32
[SPEAKER_02]: So I just understand this organically and intrinsically.
22:36
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't toggle and write.
22:38
[SPEAKER_02]: And for me, writing is a lot of work.
22:41
[SPEAKER_02]: The work is getting to the zone and getting the world away from the day-to-day world and the mechanics of the business away from my mind.
22:50
[SPEAKER_02]: So I can go stare at a flower or whatever it is I have to do.
22:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Look at the sky without timer on.
22:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I got this is so nice to listen to because I just I've struggled with writing more than I ever have since I had a baby because as a parent as a mom your mind is just like constantly running and hearing you talk about prioritizing the process to get into the zone.
23:17
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not just about creating the time to sit down at right.
23:20
[SPEAKER_00]: It's creating the time to get yourself to the space to be able to write.
23:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's like a dream like state that has to happen.
23:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I'm awake, but I'm not in my doing part of the brain.
23:32
[SPEAKER_02]: It's left brain, right brain.
23:34
[SPEAKER_02]: I mix them up, but it's the side of the brain that's creative, and it doesn't care how much I get paid in Santa Monica.
23:42
[SPEAKER_02]: It cares that these thunderstorms are rolling in and these incredible birds are screaming and the leaves are upside down and something is happening that I can pull from my imagination and work into a lyric and that kind of observation of the world is not a natural state for me.
24:03
[SPEAKER_02]: I have to get myself there.
24:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, just a quick pause from this conversation.
24:08
[SPEAKER_01]: The other 22 hours is an independent production built entirely on the idea that these quiet, honest conversations matter.
24:14
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24:17
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24:20
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24:26
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a small action that we say massive difference for us.
24:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for being here.
24:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's get back to our conversation.
24:34
[SPEAKER_01]: you mentioned solitude and quiet.
24:37
[SPEAKER_01]: What are some other things that help you get there?
24:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that carving out that space in that time and are you just sitting in the strumming guitar and singing or what are the tangible things that work for you to get to that?
24:47
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you may have a good question.
24:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, in my day-to-day life and travels, I'm always looking for things that can go into a song.
24:55
[SPEAKER_02]: If somebody says something awesome, I write it down.
24:57
[SPEAKER_02]: If I see something beautiful, I write it down.
25:00
[SPEAKER_02]: If I'm at a movie and there's a scene that has something in it that I can put into a song that I feel this feeling of wow around.
25:12
[SPEAKER_02]: I try, I'm always grabbing this stuff.
25:14
[SPEAKER_02]: And I put it in a pile.
25:16
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's a collection of thoughts, ideas, images,
25:21
[SPEAKER_02]: And then when I'm working as a writer, I'll open up the pile and try to pull from that.
25:25
[SPEAKER_02]: This is weird.
25:26
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to say one of the hardest things for me as a writer in Nashville is to write on schedule as a co-writer.
25:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm going to ask you about that.
25:36
[SPEAKER_02]: No, it takes me two hours to get in the zone.
25:39
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I'm trying to do this, but there's not a whole lot of good.
25:43
[SPEAKER_02]: It's going to happen in two hours with Mary Gochet.
25:45
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not that kind of writer.
25:47
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't write to a clock.
25:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I gotta get to the place where the creativity is awakened.
25:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And so doing it in this quit, well, I got another appointment at four.
25:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm trying, but you're not gonna get the best out of me if we're in a hurry.
26:02
[SPEAKER_02]: And oftentimes it'll take three or four writing appointments to get the song to where it starts to get good.
26:08
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't do it fast.
26:10
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just not that way.
26:11
[SPEAKER_02]: I have written with people who can and they're amazing.
26:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, again, this is like the point of these conversations and why I'm someone who's obsessed with reading people's memoirs, and I just always want to know what other people's experiences are because you feel more seen when you can relate to something and then also you learn when someone's experience is so different.
26:32
[SPEAKER_00]: But to know the quality of your work and to know your songs and then to hear that that's your process is just really exciting for me because
26:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I also think in Nashville, I don't do a bunch of co-writing.
26:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I mostly co-write with friends, but when I first moved to town, I was dipping my toe into it.
26:50
[SPEAKER_00]: We lived in New York City for 10 years and I always wrote by myself and then moving to Nashville, I was like, oh, I should try co-writing.
26:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And then there was that fear that would kick in of like, well, if I'm not writing fast enough or like, my best work isn't coming out immediately, are they also like, uh, now she's, she's not like, on par.
27:11
[SPEAKER_00]: their timeline or their expectations, will I then knock it opportunities versus we all are different one way is not better than the other.
27:21
[SPEAKER_00]: We all process and create in different ways and timelines and the business doesn't always honor that.
27:29
[SPEAKER_02]: The business says more is better.
27:30
[SPEAKER_02]: My soul says great is better.
27:33
[SPEAKER_02]: If I give you 20 songs and none of them are great, I'm not proud of that.
27:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
27:37
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't give you one great one.
27:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
27:40
[SPEAKER_02]: And that takes time from me and that's in opposition to the business.
27:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Was that belief system of too bad and I'm not going to transform for the business?
27:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Was that just in you or has that also happened in time of you just knowing yourself and knowing that you're able to build the business that you want?
27:58
[SPEAKER_02]: I do have a publishing deal and I do deliver them the number of songs I'm required to every year.
28:04
[SPEAKER_02]: But I make it clear with anyone I write with that this isn't going to go fast, I'm not fast.
28:11
[SPEAKER_02]: And we'll get a better song if you let me go home with it after a couple of hours sleep on it and then let me work on it solo a little bit tomorrow and let's look at it again together in a day or two.
28:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's hammer on it and make it really, really good instead of race to the finish and have it be okay.
28:28
[SPEAKER_02]: That's just boundaries that I set, you know?
28:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I'm not a speedwriter, I'm not.
28:33
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of the women that are in the Hall of Fame, a trace of her, a collection of Peter's, that no one's in Chapman, Liz Rose.
28:39
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there's not a lot of women in the Hall of Fame here, and I've written with most of them that are still alive.
28:43
[SPEAKER_02]: They're not fast either.
28:45
[SPEAKER_02]: It would took me one time to write seven years to write a song with Beth Nelson Chapman.
28:49
[SPEAKER_02]: We kept going back for seven years before it was a song I was ready to bring out into the world.
28:56
[SPEAKER_02]: The great writers, they just take as long as they take.
28:58
[SPEAKER_02]: They take as long as the song takes.
29:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's pretty much word for word exactly what Rodney Crowell shared with us on this same thing.
29:06
[SPEAKER_01]: He was saying he's spent like 35 years working on songs and people have reported them put them out and he still works on verses.
29:14
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, that third verse is still not right.
29:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's keep working.
29:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Rodney told me his batting average, too.
29:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you get in there with that?
29:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Not explicitly.
29:21
[SPEAKER_02]: I think he said four out of 10.
29:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
29:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Four songs out of 10 that he's written.
29:28
[SPEAKER_02]: He feels like he could bring into the world.
29:30
[SPEAKER_02]: That feels about right.
29:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:32
[SPEAKER_00]: He was very generous with just how much he thinks he fails, which is pretty incredible for someone who looks like he's succeeded a lot.
29:39
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not just the business aspect, but just writing really incredible work.
29:45
[SPEAKER_02]: The whole thing is to stay in the process.
29:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Keep writing.
29:50
[SPEAKER_02]: If you know your average is four out of 10, then you're gonna have to write, I don't know, 50 for a record.
29:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Then you pick the 12 that are good and two won't make it.
30:00
[SPEAKER_00]: There's your 10 songs, and I think he goes in and aware of that, and so do I. Yeah, one of the things that I really admire looking at your work from afar is all of the different
30:11
[SPEAKER_00]: things you have going on as well, so not just writing your own songs and having your songs pitch to other people, but you've written a book.
30:18
[SPEAKER_00]: You also do a lot of coaching and teaching with workshops and one-on-one, and then you also have songwriting with soldiers, your organization that does work with veterans.
30:29
[SPEAKER_00]: have you had to learn how to time manage all of those things, how much to put into each one, or is that also just a natural extension of I'm working on this because it's what I feel called to right now.
30:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, pretty much that.
30:45
[SPEAKER_02]: There's sort of natural time management that happens.
30:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Just tell my agent, look, leave me off the road here.
30:51
[SPEAKER_02]: I got to finish this book or tell some writing with soldiers, book me into several retreats or I can't do it right now because I'm finishing a book or I have tour dates.
31:00
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm always juggling my schedule, but they don't seem to collide and conflict so much.
31:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Having a lot of different things that I do keeps my life interesting.
31:10
[SPEAKER_02]: I love teaching so much.
31:12
[SPEAKER_02]: I love working with songwriters.
31:13
[SPEAKER_02]: I do quite a few workshops every year, and it's part of the thing I'm on earth to do.
31:18
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm supposed to be doing that.
31:19
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a great pleasure for me.
31:21
[SPEAKER_02]: It connects me deeply with purpose and I get a lot of joy from working with songwriters and helping them to move their songs forward.
31:29
[SPEAKER_02]: I carve out time for that and just block it off.
31:31
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what I'm doing here for these days.
31:33
[SPEAKER_02]: And the book came because I was offered a deal to write it through St. Martin's press.
31:38
[SPEAKER_02]: I played around with it for a while and then it started getting closer and closer to deadline than I had to say, okay, we've got to focus.
31:44
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what I did.
31:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Records are like that when I'm getting close to having enough songs for a record then I'll go, okay, I'm gonna buckle this seat belt and write, and write, we're gonna bring this to conclusion and I'm gonna make a record.
31:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I was listening to a writer talk yesterday about deadlines and using self-imposed deadlines to finish things.
32:03
[SPEAKER_01]: So when he starts songs, he purposely has no deadline, doesn't even think of the word, anything like that.
32:10
[SPEAKER_01]: So that there is room to test find where the walls of this song are and push on them and test.
32:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe it's not here, maybe it's over here, and the freedom to explore without any kind of stress encroaching on that zone.
32:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And then when he realizes that he's just spinning his wheels in the mud on a little bit, he'll set himself a deadline, you know, whether it's to actually record it or whatever it is to then really put his nose to the grindstone and get it finished, I thought those are really really cool idea because deadlines definitely kick me way into gear.
32:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, they can help me, too.
32:41
[SPEAKER_02]: It just put in boundaries around time and knowing that I have to make choices.
32:45
[SPEAKER_02]: If I'm doing this, I can't be doing that.
32:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Prioritizing things for me is probably more important than deadlines.
32:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I make it a priority.
32:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
32:52
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll get to the end of it if this is what I prioritize.
32:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you talk a little bit about songwriting for soldiers?
32:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I've been a part of that program for 15 years, I guess.
33:02
[SPEAKER_02]: And it pairs professional songwriters with wounded veterans at a small retreat center.
33:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And we listen and we take their story and turn it into a song.
33:11
[SPEAKER_02]: We found over the years that it's really a powerful experience for both the songwriters and the veterans.
33:17
[SPEAKER_02]: It helps to give them a platform where they're safe to talk.
33:22
[SPEAKER_02]: See songs are where you tell secrets.
33:24
[SPEAKER_02]: and awful lot of the trauma experience of our veterans is that they carry too many secrets.
33:30
[SPEAKER_02]: And so when we get it into a song and get it out of them, there's a cathartic, any emotional release that's really helpful.
33:37
[SPEAKER_02]: It takes some of the pressure off.
33:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I think when I think about songs and what I love about a lot of folk singers and non-mainstream pop music is that there's stories that we don't commonly hear like a lot of popular mainstream music can be a lot of free occurring themes about romantic relationships and there's so many more stories in our lives that
33:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I think are important to share and when we were all on Kaialmo together and I saw you perform and you wrote a song if I remember correctly from the spouses perspective of being the one left behind and have been a military spouse.
34:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I grew up military and my dad is a retired submarine captain and my uncle was actually the commandant of the Marine Corps so I come from a big military family and my whole life watching
34:27
[SPEAKER_00]: her kids around.
34:28
[SPEAKER_00]: We moved every other year and she didn't have a career because being an unpaid military spouse is really a career.
34:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the first time I've ever heard a song that had any resemblance to what I would imagine my mother and my aunt's experiences.
34:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you just don't find that kind of stuff in mainstream music.
34:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I love
34:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Seeing that especially bringing all those kind of experiences to light through that work I know I've read processing trauma as a big motivation for you and through that work I guess this is the way to say thank you because I think it's really incredible
35:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's beautiful work, and it gives us the songwriters as much as it gives the members who have the military served and those who served.
35:19
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the songwriters get really in touch with the power that we have to serve those who serve.
35:25
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a great, great joy in that, even if we're crying, it's beautiful.
35:30
[SPEAKER_02]: And articulating different perspectives is really important,
35:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Writing from this perspective of a gold star family, a gold star mother, the different people when a member of a family serves the whole family serves.
35:48
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't think Americans understand that.
35:50
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's the truth, that it's a commitment of the entire family.
35:55
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't understand it until I started listening to their stories and witnessing their lives.
35:59
[SPEAKER_02]: It's been a great education for me.
36:02
[SPEAKER_02]: I've learned so much about people I wouldn't have met in any other way.
36:06
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I moved to New York City at 18 for college and had spent my entire childhood moving from military bases and in New York and the communities at the art schools in and I worked at a record label and nobody had met people who grew up in military families.
36:23
[SPEAKER_00]: So many people were like, what are your dads that's submarine captain?
36:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, yeah, like so many people's dads.
36:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I know like,
36:30
[SPEAKER_00]: because that's where I grew up, but it's interesting we can feel also divided and sharing stories through whatever art form is how we learn about each other and I haven't really thought about that much until this moment.
36:43
[SPEAKER_00]: The very first song I ever wrote, I was five years old and it was just a piano piece so there were no lyrics but it was called when Daddy comes home because my dad was
37:00
[SPEAKER_00]: A minor chords and thinking, oh, this is what it feels like.
37:04
[SPEAKER_00]: But my dad's not here, and we don't get to talk to him, and just what that does to your brain to get to go through that process, of trying to communicate, a feeling, through creating something, and then to listen to it, to be the other side, and get to receive that and learn empathy.
37:22
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what it's all about, right there, empathy.
37:24
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the experience of not being you, but of being someone else for a short moment, to get out of the self into the experience of someone else to the depth of actually feeling it.
37:37
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is what's wearing short supply, culturally right now.
37:41
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is where songwriters can really build bridges and help us, culturally,
37:45
[SPEAKER_02]: to make sense of what are they thinking?
37:48
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what they're thinking, but here's what they're feeling.
37:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Cause songs are what feelings sound like.
37:53
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, walking with military and military families has been really tremendous for me.
37:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's an incredible gift.
38:01
[SPEAKER_02]: to get to be in this position, to help bridge that civilian military divide, because this real has a lot of civilians don't know anyone who served.
38:11
[SPEAKER_02]: They don't know the day-to-day of a military film.
38:13
[SPEAKER_02]: They don't even know that that a whole family serves when a member serves.
38:17
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a great grand canyon between the military and the civilians in the states these days and being a part of the solution has been a big deal.
38:26
[SPEAKER_02]: I think some writing messages is an incredible program.
38:29
[SPEAKER_00]: It's awesome, I'm all definitely linked to it.
38:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we'll put that in the show notes for anybody that wants to hear more about what that is and to know that program.
38:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I had a one question on Kayama.
38:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I saw you and Patty Griffin in Nico case do an in the round and then there was also like a Q&A involved.
38:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you remember this?
38:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, that's an idea, she's the one who got us into that.
38:57
[SPEAKER_00]: There was a question about sexism and the music business, and Nico Case was just fire.
39:05
[SPEAKER_02]: It was incredible.
39:06
[SPEAKER_02]: She's fire anyway.
39:08
[SPEAKER_02]: I get her talking about sexism and really business.
39:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and she was very much just like I love music.
39:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I hate the music business and she was just has had some experiences that were unfortunate and very fiercely like this is my belief system and I think this should Is messed up and I remember Patty Griffin was like fortunately I haven't had a lot of these negative experiences
39:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you made a small comment that didn't get expanded on.
39:35
[SPEAKER_00]: You made a comment to Nico of you said something like, I have a feeling the way that a comment or something that you say might be received by men in this business is different than how it's received from me as a gay woman.
39:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And made a comment about being a femme, heterosexual woman, versus how it's received being a gay, not super feminine.
39:59
[SPEAKER_02]: It's over and over and over again.
40:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And do you feel comfortable?
40:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, I think that men treat me differently than they treat pretty women.
40:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Women that they have sexual tension with are women that they can objectify and feel the need to have some sort of dance with.
40:19
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no need to dance with me.
40:20
[SPEAKER_02]: We're dealing with each other two guys in a way.
40:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not engaged in that part of their psyche, and I never have been.
40:28
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's made it a lot easier for me, I think.
40:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Now I'll come up against the homophobia, but I think that's different.
40:34
[SPEAKER_02]: I've seen some men just be horrible to straight women, just horrible.
40:40
[SPEAKER_02]: They'll ask for something, and the man will say, that's not how it works in this room, or that's not how this board works.
40:48
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, if I ask for some more high meds in my vocals and they answer that, whoa, we don't have us a conversation, they don't answer that because they know it's just a long book could be written about these types of dynamics in our business.
41:07
[SPEAKER_02]: it's complicated.
41:08
[SPEAKER_02]: We look at each other and some each other up really quickly and decide how to position ourselves with each other.
41:16
[SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of it is stereotype and we're acting in ways that we're not even aware of.
41:22
[SPEAKER_02]: But I'm sure that sexism has had some kind of effect on me, but in my day-to-day life, I'm more dealing probably with homophobia.
41:31
[SPEAKER_02]: My womanness is not as problematic as
41:37
[SPEAKER_01]: How does the homophobia appear in your day-to-day from the business perspective?
41:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's ethereal and I can't pin it down.
41:43
[SPEAKER_02]: It's sexism's probably like that too.
41:45
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure there's opportunities that I have not had because I am not that kind of a woman.
41:52
[SPEAKER_02]: But to be that kind of a woman also comes with problems.
41:57
[SPEAKER_02]: The whole thing we're dealing with is patriarchy and we need to burn it down.
42:01
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm with Nico on that.
42:02
[SPEAKER_02]: If we could learn how to contend and deal with each other as people, rather than genders, we can find our way in a more egalitarian way.
42:11
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's patriarchy that's the problem.
42:13
[SPEAKER_02]: It's male dominance.
42:14
[SPEAKER_02]: The producers are all men.
42:15
[SPEAKER_02]: The engineers are all men.
42:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Radios run by men.
42:18
[SPEAKER_02]: People on the radio are men.
42:20
[SPEAKER_02]: And women are fighting for one spot at a festival.
42:22
[SPEAKER_02]: The big conversation, I think Patty was trying to have is that conversation.
42:26
[SPEAKER_02]: the top 20 in country music, they'll be one or two women consistently.
42:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I love the Americana Association and and the community, but even I look at the Americana charts all the time.
42:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because the programming is men.
42:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I like how you said it's a theory although because the complexities of prejudices and biases that we experience, it can be so difficult.
42:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I've gone through this so much in my head of, wait, I feel like I was just treated differently because that older man I work with is treating me like I'm a child or they're making assumptions because I'm a new mother
43:10
[SPEAKER_00]: and it's like you get gas lit of like if you were more successful or had a bigger audience maybe you wouldn't be treated this way and it's such a mind-fuck and you're like wait no I really think I'm right here again having these conversations secrets being brought out in songs and we like to say mold grows in darkness.
43:32
[SPEAKER_00]: We like to bring things to light.
43:34
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what the importance of and what my excitement of having these conversations of these common experiences and things that we honestly, the patriarchy also benefits from us not talking about.
43:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And being told, there's an oil, just stop.
43:49
[SPEAKER_00]: You're whining.
43:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, be grateful.
43:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
43:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
43:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for taking time today to sit down with us and have this conversation.
43:58
[SPEAKER_01]: One thing I've noticed just in everything you've shared with us and your viewpoint on the industry and the career and the creative process and all that is patience.
44:07
[SPEAKER_01]: You've seen so incredibly patient in the process and that has just been really mind-opening for me.
44:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, patience and persistence.
44:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
44:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Even in the face of some of this difficult stuff, just keep showing up and stare on down.
44:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes in silence, until you get what you need, until you can crack the code.
44:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I absolutely have consistently shown up and have worked on my art with patience and perseverance.
44:41
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what it takes for a long career.
44:43
[SPEAKER_02]: You can overweight talent and your understanding of how this works.
44:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Talent is important.
44:49
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not the most important.
44:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Off a lot of talent and people can't get a career.
44:53
[SPEAKER_02]: It's persistence and diligence.
44:56
[SPEAKER_02]: And patience with the art and persistence with the business.
44:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
45:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that.
45:00
[SPEAKER_00]: The art persistence at the business.
45:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
45:02
[SPEAKER_00]: It should be a bumper sticker.
45:04
[SPEAKER_00]: You're in your new merch line.
45:06
[SPEAKER_00]: All this would know what we're talking about.
45:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
45:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
45:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you so much.
45:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And I wanted to just one last compliment to you of we reference the we talked about the age thing and you starting at 40 and I wanted to tell you and I hope you take this as a compliment that as a woman in this business.
45:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I've had so many conversations with other women where we talk about our fear of like my crews not where I thought it should be at this point and my two old and so many times we reference.
45:35
[SPEAKER_00]: you and Lucinda.
45:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're just like, have we ever cared about their age?
45:40
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
45:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And how will they when they started?
45:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And their songs just are better and better all the time.
45:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So thank you.
45:46
[SPEAKER_02]: You just keep hammering on the rock.
45:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
45:48
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, that's what we do.
45:50
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that focusing on excuses why it's not working isn't going to help the art.
45:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Just do great art.
45:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And then figure out how to do business.
45:59
[SPEAKER_02]: It could be an excuse age.
46:01
[SPEAKER_02]: or gender or sexual preference or my voice isn't great or I'm not an awesome player.
46:09
[SPEAKER_02]: People don't care about that stuff and if you're so moved then they're going to give you money to write another one, you know.
46:16
[SPEAKER_02]: It's it.
46:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
46:18
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't care what really Nelson is or Lucinda or Patty Smith.
46:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
46:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Move me and let's keep it going.
46:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
46:25
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
46:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much, Mary.
46:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you all.
46:31
[SPEAKER_01]: We know your time is valuable and we're grateful you chose to spend this hour with us.
46:35
[SPEAKER_00]: If this conversation resonated with you, know that it is just one of many.
46:38
[SPEAKER_00]: We have an archive of over 140 conversations.
46:41
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you're looking for a where to go to next, you can find curated playlists by topic on our YouTube channel or simply scroll back in the speed to find our conversations with Rogan Cash, New York Times bestselling author, Maggie Smith, Lucius, Jadey McPherson, and many others.
46:56
[SPEAKER_01]: This shows produced by me, Mary Shaffer based with help from the Kayla and all the music here is written, performed and produced by me as well.
47:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Our show is edited and mixed by Leland Holden at Pod Punch and we are proud members of the Bluegrass situation podcast network.
47:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for being here.
47:12
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll see you next time.