Latest / Sharp Strategies Sweet Success / #75 - Fractional CMO Reality Check for Law Firms with Jason Williams

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#75 - Fractional CMO Reality Check for Law Firms with Jason Williams · Sharp Strategies Sweet Success

0:00
SPEAKER_01: how are the algorithms dealing with it?
0:01
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's a lot going on.
0:03
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot going on.
0:04
And just going back to the basics and trying to understand and
0:07
build a foundation,
0:08
SPEAKER_01: I think that's probably one of the more important things for any,
0:13
SPEAKER_01: really any law firm,
0:14
SPEAKER_01: but especially small law firms that are starting out,
0:17
SPEAKER_01: that are trying to grow,
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SPEAKER_01: is to build that foundation.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: Sharp Strategies, Sweet Success.
0:35
SPEAKER_00: Hello, everyone, and welcome.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: You're listening to Sharp Strategies, Sweet Success.
0:40
SPEAKER_00: This is your host, Tiffany Swedensky.
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SPEAKER_00: And today we have with us Jason Williams.
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SPEAKER_00: I've known Jason Williams for actually quite a few years now,
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SPEAKER_00: a longtime marketer of the Miley Law Group in West Virginia.
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SPEAKER_00: And the funny story,
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SPEAKER_00: I don't usually have funny stories in my introduction,
0:56
SPEAKER_00: but I deal with this one.
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At one point I was presenting for Great Legal Marketing and
1:00
talking about a blog
1:02
SPEAKER_00: that we had written that caught like a Google snippet,
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SPEAKER_00: like the old school version.
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SPEAKER_01: I remember.
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SPEAKER_01: Yep.
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SPEAKER_01: Yep.
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And the article was what to do if the other driver was lying
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about the accident.
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SPEAKER_00: We ranked for it.
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SPEAKER_00: We got the snippet for it.
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SPEAKER_00: Great.
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SPEAKER_00: I was presenting on it.
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SPEAKER_00: And then I think when I was presenting on it,
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SPEAKER_00: that's when I realized that another person had captured the snippet.
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SPEAKER_00: And that was the Miley Law Group.
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SPEAKER_00: And that was Jason.
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SPEAKER_00: So you took the article from me.
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SPEAKER_00: I'll never forget it.
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SPEAKER_01: I was excited to get that one, too, because that was our first one.
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And I knew I knew that I had swiped it from you all because I'm
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pretty sure the way
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SPEAKER_01: I had tracked it.
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SPEAKER_01: And actually, it was a surprise.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, I was kind of surprised.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
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SPEAKER_01: Obviously, I don't know.
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We don't know how Google algorithms work,
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but it just worked out that way.
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SPEAKER_01: Just worked out that way.
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I think you were in the room because I and maybe I just made up
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the story in my
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SPEAKER_00: head,
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SPEAKER_00: but I made eye contact.
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SPEAKER_01: No, I think I was in the room.
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Yeah,
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I think that was probably one of the meetings that we were that
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one of the meetings.
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that we were at but yeah i don't know that we held on to it
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very long after that
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because i think somebody else wiped it from us i don't remember
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i don't remember
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but yeah well i did kind of hijack how we normally do the
2:17
podcast usually after i
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do my introduction i let you introduce yourself and we didn't
2:21
do it i didn't do a
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great job of that this time but jason why don't you tell
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everyone about yourself
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SPEAKER_01: My name is Jason Williams.
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SPEAKER_01: I was actually a marketing director for a PI law.
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SPEAKER_01: They were PI law firm in West Virginia, Miley Legal Group.
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SPEAKER_01: I was there 11 years and experienced a lot.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, we did all across the gamut.
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We did television marketing,
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digital,
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a lot of digital,
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those kinds of things.
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SPEAKER_01: We did a lot of commercials and all that good stuff.
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SPEAKER_01: But yeah, that's kind of who I am.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: Well,
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SPEAKER_00: And you're striking out on your own.
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You're working as a fractional CMO and kind of both of us are
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doing the same thing
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SPEAKER_00: and following the same path.
3:00
SPEAKER_00: And I know for me,
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SPEAKER_00: like when I was leaving my law firm,
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SPEAKER_00: there are things that I missed and I wouldn't miss.
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And tell me,
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and I mean,
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it could be about anything,
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but I guess,
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tell me what you'll miss.
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Like,
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tell me what you'll miss working as a dedicated marketer for a
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law firm.
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SPEAKER_01: What I'll miss.
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SPEAKER_01: I think,
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SPEAKER_01: I think one of the primary reasons I decided to take the leap,
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SPEAKER_01: so to speak,
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SPEAKER_01: is to number one,
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SPEAKER_01: it's nice to work for yourself.
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It's nice to,
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as I've gotten older,
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priorities change,
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those kinds of things.
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SPEAKER_01: What I'll miss primarily,
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SPEAKER_01: probably the day-to-day contact with staff.
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That'll probably be the biggest thing just because 11 years is
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a long time to be at
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SPEAKER_01: the same office.
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SPEAKER_01: And as I was there, the firm grew.
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SPEAKER_01: So we had employees were coming in.
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SPEAKER_01: And in fact,
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SPEAKER_01: when I left,
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SPEAKER_01: we had just hired like two or three people that they were still training.
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So because during the 11 years that I was there,
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we were continually growing.
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SPEAKER_01: Obviously there was that COVID blip
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SPEAKER_01: but we were continuously growing.
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SPEAKER_01: So I think that's what I'll miss the most.
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And depending on what the future holds,
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we tried a lot of different things.
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I had,
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obviously we had budget constraints,
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but we tried a lot of new things.
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I mean,
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we consistently looked at different things to do,
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what we could do better.
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SPEAKER_01: We measured a lot.
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SPEAKER_01: So that sense of freedom,
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SPEAKER_01: again,
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SPEAKER_01: depending on how things work out the next down the road,
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SPEAKER_01: that could be something that I could miss as well.
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SPEAKER_00: For me, that was the same thing.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, striking them on your own is really freaking lonely.
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Like I'm lonely on a normal day-to-day basis because I work
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from home and the only
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SPEAKER_00: people who are here are kids and my husband.
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But you do the day,
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like until you build a team,
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you don't really have any coworkers.
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SPEAKER_00: And when you're a business owner, you never have any coworkers, you know?
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SPEAKER_00: So it's just a whole different dynamic and it's tough.
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SPEAKER_00: So what is a marketing tactic
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SPEAKER_00: that I guess I don't want to like start any drama,
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SPEAKER_00: but like,
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how are you going to be marketing differently than compared to
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how you were at your
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SPEAKER_00: old firm?
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SPEAKER_01: Well,
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SPEAKER_01: I think what I would like to do,
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and I know the reason why I kind of am making this transition
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is I'd like to focus
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SPEAKER_01: more on
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SPEAKER_01: solo and smaller firms.
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And so throughout the years that I was at the firm,
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we developed strategies that we used.
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SPEAKER_01: And as we grew, those strategies had to change.
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SPEAKER_01: And so I kind of want to go back maybe to the basics a little bit.
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SPEAKER_01: can work more hand in hand with,
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SPEAKER_01: like I said,
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SPEAKER_01: a solo or a small law firm,
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SPEAKER_01: which is really different.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's really different than larger firm, a TV advertising firm.
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I mean,
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there's a lot of different things that go on and things that
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you're working with.
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SPEAKER_00: I'll tell you a story.
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SPEAKER_00: So a couple, like, I think it was like a year or two ago.
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One of my clients was interested in doing local service ads and
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they heard a
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webinar with a guy who does local service ads and they reached
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out to him.
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SPEAKER_00: We scheduled like a sales meeting, right?
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And we ran on the sales meeting and it was myself,
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my client and two other attorneys.
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SPEAKER_00: And when it was like a group sales meeting, which is weird, but anyway.
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And then when the guy started presenting and started talking
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about local service
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SPEAKER_00: ads,
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SPEAKER_00: like me and my client were asking like hard questions.
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And then it was time for somebody else to ask questions and
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they kind of chuckled
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SPEAKER_00: and they said,
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SPEAKER_00: what are local,
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SPEAKER_00: what is LSA?
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SPEAKER_00: What are local service ads?
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SPEAKER_00: They had no idea like that.
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SPEAKER_00: And that's what we were in a meeting about was local service ads.
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SPEAKER_00: And it's like kind of shocking,
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SPEAKER_00: like the difference between like some attorneys and some law firms,
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just like how much they know about the marketing space and how
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much they don't.
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SPEAKER_00: And I bucked up against that a few times where
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You don't realize it,
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but you're kind of talking over somebody's head about
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marketing.
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And it always makes me like,
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want to take,
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like you said,
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a step back to the basics.
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SPEAKER_00: Cause like, okay, what are we talking about?
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SPEAKER_00: Like,
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what other kind of preconceived notions am I used to like
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holding in a conversation
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SPEAKER_00: and that sort of thing?
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What kind of questions are you getting that are you getting any
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questions that like
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SPEAKER_00: catch you off guard or anything like that?
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SPEAKER_01: Not really.
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SPEAKER_01: I think,
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SPEAKER_01: like you said,
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SPEAKER_01: having a lot of experience in legal marketing,
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you have to kind of take a different view and look at it from
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their position,
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SPEAKER_01: especially somebody who's new that they don't really,
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SPEAKER_01: number one,
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SPEAKER_01: they maybe not know what an LSA is.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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that's something we hear about every day and really the impact
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that truly has on
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SPEAKER_01: the number of intakes and the number of cases that are brought in.
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SPEAKER_01: I think that
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SPEAKER_01: that would probably be,
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SPEAKER_01: or that would be the,
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SPEAKER_01: I guess the most,
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that would actually probably be one of the more challenging
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things for me is making
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sure that I kind of pull back a little bit just to go back to
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what those basics
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SPEAKER_01: were when I started 10 years ago.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, when I started 10 years ago, obviously LSAs didn't exist.
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SPEAKER_01: We were building a Google AdWords account from scratch on our own.
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SPEAKER_01: The website at that point, it was old and had a lot of
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SPEAKER_01: backlinks and those kinds of things.
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And so we did a lot of boots to the ground type work that there
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are a lot of
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SPEAKER_01: vendors out there now that you can pay to do that.
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SPEAKER_01: And now with the advent of AI,
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SPEAKER_01: so not only are we worried about how vendors are meeting their goals,
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SPEAKER_01: now we have AI thrown in the equation.
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SPEAKER_01: And how is that impacting not only the vendors,
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SPEAKER_01: but also the content that's coming out that the firms are producing,
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SPEAKER_01: that marketers are producing,
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SPEAKER_01: that
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SPEAKER_01: How are the algorithms dealing with it?
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's a lot going on.
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SPEAKER_01: There's a lot going on.
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And just going back to the basics and trying to understand and
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build a foundation,
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SPEAKER_01: I think that's probably one of the more important things for any,
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SPEAKER_01: really any law firm,
8:54
SPEAKER_01: but especially small law firms that are starting out,
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SPEAKER_01: that are trying to grow,
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SPEAKER_01: is to build that foundation.
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SPEAKER_01: And it could start with LSAs.
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It could start with updating content on their website or even
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building a website.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, just depends on where they're at and where they want to go.
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SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
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Being out here in the wild where you're working with firms with
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various levels of
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SPEAKER_00: marketing experience,
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SPEAKER_00: because I think you and I are both kind of used to like the larger firms,
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SPEAKER_00: I guess,
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SPEAKER_00: more than the true solos like you.
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SPEAKER_00: So it's a different speed for sure.
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SPEAKER_00: And you know,
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SPEAKER_00: it's weird because as a fractional,
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SPEAKER_00: you deal with one law firm that may be tremendously sophisticated.
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SPEAKER_00: And we're talking about how long does it take to respond to an intake?
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SPEAKER_00: What's the CPA?
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SPEAKER_00: Do we want to do this new opportunity?
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SPEAKER_00: Do we have the budget for it?
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SPEAKER_00: We're having those conversations.
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SPEAKER_00: And then with the smaller law firms,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm teaching them,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: this is why we need to set up a business manager account.
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SPEAKER_00: This is how we use a pixel.
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your seo is here it needs to be here and it's just the
10:00
conversations are so
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different and unless you're a business like us like where
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you're you're almost like
10:07
an agency and you're dealing with a lot of people that fall
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under one umbrella i
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guess all businesses are technically you really don't see it
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and you know just to
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SPEAKER_00: throw well
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SPEAKER_00: I never like to talk about the attorneys who listen to my podcast,
10:23
but I always find it a bit ironic how sometimes attorneys will
10:27
complain about how
10:28
their clients don't understand and they do things that they
10:30
don't approve of and
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SPEAKER_00: they wreck their own case.
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SPEAKER_00: And then I see that same thing on the marketing end.
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SPEAKER_00: It's like they're doing stuff.
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They don't realize they're wrecking their own marketing or
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making it too impossible
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SPEAKER_00: to claim a Facebook page.
10:43
SPEAKER_00: And so it's kind of ironic.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm sure we do too, you know?
10:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
10:47
SPEAKER_01: and even long-term,
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SPEAKER_01: larger firms that owners that have larger firms,
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SPEAKER_01: they follow that same gambit as well.
10:54
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
10:55
because they're focused on so many different things and we're
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lucky in a sense
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SPEAKER_01: where our focus is just marketing.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: And so we can develop those skills to kind of say,
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SPEAKER_01: hey,
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this is what we think you should do based on whatever data that
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we can present.
11:08
They're doing the same thing on a different level in the legal
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field and even just
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SPEAKER_01: managing the business,
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SPEAKER_01: just going through HR type stuff.
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SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: And as we both have probably experienced and...
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A lot of lawyers are,
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they're very smart and like to think they know a lot about a
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lot.
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SPEAKER_01: And so that also creates a challenge,
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SPEAKER_01: trying to make sure that you as a marketer,
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SPEAKER_01: your voice is heard.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
11:35
That's the tough part about like being an in-house marketer
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because it kind of
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SPEAKER_00: works the same way with vendors.
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I was having this conversation with somebody yesterday about
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answering services and
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SPEAKER_00: they made a really good point.
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SPEAKER_00: They say, I recommend the answering service.
11:48
SPEAKER_00: That's the newest.
11:50
SPEAKER_00: And the reason for that is the newest one,
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SPEAKER_00: their teams are new,
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SPEAKER_00: they're ambitious,
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SPEAKER_00: they work hard,
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SPEAKER_00: they're trying to establish themselves as a company.
12:00
SPEAKER_00: But once the answering service is established,
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SPEAKER_00: it becomes more like a routine call center,
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SPEAKER_00: the quality of service starts to dip.
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SPEAKER_00: And,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
12:09
SPEAKER_00: talking from experience,
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SPEAKER_00: working with practically all the law firm answering services that exist,
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SPEAKER_00: they are basically the same.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: But like his recency bias,
12:18
SPEAKER_00: like his take on is just like,
12:19
SPEAKER_00: just recommend the most recent,
12:20
SPEAKER_00: like they're probably going to be the best.
12:22
SPEAKER_00: And he's absolutely right.
12:24
SPEAKER_00: And it's that also that way,
12:26
SPEAKER_00: like,
12:27
SPEAKER_00: I think with in-house marketers,
12:28
SPEAKER_00: like a full-time fractional CMO,
12:31
SPEAKER_00: I think the average tenure is two years.
12:33
SPEAKER_00: because there's a lot of expectations surrounding marketing,
12:38
but a lot of like practical things that like weigh those
12:41
expectations down,
12:43
like claiming a Facebook page if you can't tell what I was
12:46
dealing with right
12:46
SPEAKER_00: before this podcast started.
12:48
SPEAKER_00: You know, and...
12:50
Everyone sees the output of marketing,
12:52
the billboards,
12:53
the commercials,
12:54
the whatever.
12:56
And then they don't appreciate the internal administrative part
13:00
of it,
13:00
I guess.
13:01
And so people get excited,
13:03
they get a new hire,
13:04
and then it becomes reality.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: And then, oh, let's get a new marketer in here.
13:09
SPEAKER_00: Let's hire a new agency or a new answering service.
13:12
SPEAKER_00: And it's sad.
13:13
SPEAKER_00: Honestly, it's kind of sad to think about sometimes.
13:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:17
Well,
13:17
I think that's because,
13:18
like you said,
13:18
not only with answering services,
13:20
you can...
13:22
push that onto anything like SEO or an SEO vendor,
13:25
a newsletter vendor,
13:27
a Google ads vendor.
13:28
SPEAKER_01: I mean, and I think that becomes, Hey, look, it's a new shiny thing.
13:32
SPEAKER_01: And that becomes a problem that a lot of marketers face just in general.
13:36
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I faced it.
13:37
And so one of the things that I think becomes difficult is
13:41
vendor management.
13:43
And a lot of the times when like we're interviewing or I've
13:46
been interviewing SEO companies and
13:49
SPEAKER_01: getting ready to make a change, it's, hey, look,
13:54
SPEAKER_01: We know at the beginning, you're going to be gung-ho.
13:56
You're going to try to impress us with whatever you can throw
14:00
at our website to
14:01
SPEAKER_01: make us look like we're getting traffic like crazy.
14:04
SPEAKER_01: I'm looking at long-term strategy.
14:05
What are we going to do alongside that good,
14:08
nice,
14:08
flashy stuff to give us long-term growth?
14:12
SPEAKER_01: Because that's what we want.
14:13
SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's a lot of just law firms in general.
14:16
That's what they face when they're making decisions on vendors
14:19
and who they want to
14:20
SPEAKER_01: use to marketing and maybe even their
14:22
SPEAKER_01: fractional CMOs.
14:23
I mean,
14:24
they go to conferences and such as presenting and so as saying,
14:26
hey,
14:26
how great they are.
14:27
SPEAKER_01: And they're like, well, let's try them too.
14:28
SPEAKER_01: Or we want to try them.
14:29
SPEAKER_01: Let's switch.
14:31
But I think there's a little bit of a failure there only
14:33
because you don't get the
14:35
SPEAKER_01: long-term benefit.
14:37
SPEAKER_01: Like when I first started in the industry,
14:39
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
14:41
SPEAKER_01: we were with the same website vendor for like eight,
14:46
SPEAKER_01: nine years.
14:48
And when I ended or when I left,
14:51
I mean,
14:51
I think we were changing vendors every 18 months.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: And that's a challenge.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: That's a challenge.
14:58
But you do want the best and you want to find the best and you
15:00
want to get somebody
15:01
SPEAKER_01: that's working well for you and for the firm.
15:03
SPEAKER_01: So there's kind of a line you have to walk there.
15:06
SPEAKER_00: Well, and I can think of being in this space.
15:10
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think you've been in this space longer than me, actually.
15:13
SPEAKER_00: But you see companies kind of rise and fall.
15:17
SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to name any names,
15:18
but there's a video vendor company that I guess they're still
15:22
really popular.
15:23
SPEAKER_00: But they came up and...
15:26
everyone loved it everyone loved the idea of it everyone bought
15:30
it i mean that's
15:31
the way it seemed to me and then it's just another video it's
15:35
just another video
15:36
that lives in their inventory and that's the real reason shiny
15:39
object syndrome is
15:40
so bad like and as a business owner like i i have experienced
15:46
shiny object syndrome
15:47
so i know the other side of it i experienced it first as an
15:50
employee but now as a
15:51
SPEAKER_00: business owner it's like oh
15:53
SPEAKER_00: That's what it was like, you know?
15:55
SPEAKER_00: But the real danger of it is like...
15:58
SPEAKER_00: you got to commit to whatever you're going to do.
16:00
SPEAKER_00: Right.
16:01
SPEAKER_00: And if it's a shiny object,
16:03
SPEAKER_00: if it's the moment or whatever,
16:06
SPEAKER_00: then you're not really committing to it.
16:07
SPEAKER_00: You're just like trying it.
16:08
SPEAKER_00: Let's give it a try.
16:10
But I don't really think in marketing,
16:11
there's such a thing as like testing the waters.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: Like you really do have to get particularly with like mass media.
16:17
Like there's no such thing as like spending 5,000 and just
16:21
guaranteeing yourself a
16:22
SPEAKER_00: case out of it.
16:23
SPEAKER_00: Like that just don't happen.
16:25
SPEAKER_01: No,
16:25
SPEAKER_01: and I think it also brings up the point that these vendors,
16:28
one of the things that I'm interested in learning a lot about
16:32
what the impact will
16:32
be in our field is these venture capitalist funds that are
16:36
buying all of these
16:38
SPEAKER_01: internet vendors,
16:39
SPEAKER_01: these SEO companies.
16:41
SPEAKER_01: And that's a whole nother layer.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: How is that going to impact long-term?
16:44
SPEAKER_01: Not only their current clients, but future clients.
16:46
SPEAKER_01: And that's a whole new thing.
16:48
I just don't know what impact that'll have,
16:50
what conglomerate they're creating.
16:52
SPEAKER_01: And so that'll be interesting to see.
16:55
And I think with the whole let's try type stuff,
16:59
I mean,
16:59
AI is just open that wide.
17:01
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
17:02
SPEAKER_01: there's so much stuff coming at everybody,
17:04
SPEAKER_01: firm owners,
17:05
SPEAKER_01: just legal processes,
17:06
SPEAKER_01: but also marketing and what you should do,
17:09
SPEAKER_01: what you shouldn't do,
17:11
SPEAKER_01: what the impact is going to be,
17:11
SPEAKER_01: and if it's going to be successful.
17:13
And I don't think anybody truly knows at this point how
17:17
successful AI is going to
17:18
SPEAKER_01: be in any part of marketing or the legal industry.
17:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: I mean, and there are so many facets to AI.
17:28
Cause like when we,
17:30
when you start talking about AI,
17:31
you could be talking about AI search.
17:32
You could be talking about how to use AI document review,
17:37
automated processes.
17:39
There's a new like AI tool that will essentially allow you to
17:43
give AI full control
17:44
SPEAKER_00: over your computer and systems,
17:46
SPEAKER_00: which is like nuts to me,
17:48
SPEAKER_00: but okay.
17:49
SPEAKER_00: And there's so many facets to it that it's almost at this point,
17:52
SPEAKER_00: when we start saying the word AI,
17:54
SPEAKER_00: I'm not even exactly sure what kind of AI we're talking about.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
17:59
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know,
18:01
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what your experiences with it have been,
18:03
SPEAKER_00: but,
18:03
SPEAKER_00: and I'll echo what many other people have said,
18:06
SPEAKER_00: like,
18:06
SPEAKER_00: I'm glad I grew up in a pre AI era.
18:09
SPEAKER_00: Cause I actually had to learn to write.
18:11
Like I actually had to learn to do photo edits and like video
18:15
edits and stuff like that.
18:17
And that experience is still,
18:19
you know,
18:19
it's not applicable,
18:21
but it's still useful.
18:23
No,
18:23
and I've tried to just think of AI as a tool,
18:27
regardless of what you're doing with it.
18:29
SPEAKER_01: It's something to, to, to help, not necessarily for you to rely on.
18:34
SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of how I've tried to look at it.
18:38
SPEAKER_01: And then even when you're analyzing and looking at the different,
18:41
SPEAKER_01: the different software that's being created,
18:42
SPEAKER_01: like you're
18:44
Like a big thing for the firm when I was leaving was answering
18:48
services and how AI
18:50
was going to tie into the case management software and how far
18:57
you wanted to go and
18:58
SPEAKER_01: allowing it to answer your phone,
19:00
SPEAKER_01: talk to your clients,
19:02
SPEAKER_01: forward calls.
19:03
SPEAKER_01: I mean, do intake, schedule appointments.
19:06
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just...
19:08
Where do you want to draw that line and make sure it's just a
19:11
tool and you're not
19:12
SPEAKER_01: relying on it?
19:12
SPEAKER_01: Because I don't,
19:13
I know there's this whole thorn that everybody's in everybody's
19:16
side about the
19:17
SPEAKER_01: taking jobs.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: AI is gonna,
19:20
I think AI is going to make things maybe easier and it may
19:24
eliminate some functions
19:25
SPEAKER_01: in some positions,
19:26
SPEAKER_01: but I don't think it's gonna,
19:28
SPEAKER_01: I don't know that it'll ever completely take,
19:29
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
19:30
SPEAKER_01: you have to have some sort of human set eyes looking at stuff.
19:33
SPEAKER_01: At some level,
19:34
SPEAKER_01: you have to have,
19:35
SPEAKER_01: especially in an industry that is so heavily reliant on referrals.
19:42
and how customers and their clients are treated and how they
19:45
respond in AI and how
19:48
SPEAKER_01: the public interacts with AI,
19:50
I think it's gonna have a big portion of some of the decisions
19:54
that get made.
19:56
SPEAKER_01: I remember earlier in the year,
19:58
we were talking about AI and how we wanted to use that in the
20:02
intake process.
20:04
SPEAKER_01: And we had one of the calls,
20:06
one of the leads that called in actually questioned our intake
20:10
specialist,
20:11
SPEAKER_01: asking them if they were AI on the phone as they were talking to them.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: And I don't know if it's because she had a really nice voice,
20:17
SPEAKER_01: if she sounded computer generated,
20:19
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
20:19
SPEAKER_01: But that's starting to become ingrained in our society now.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: Are you talking to a human or are you talking to AI?
20:27
SPEAKER_01: Even chat and responding to Facebook messages.
20:31
I've had just dealing with some of the Facebook messages that
20:33
I've received,
20:35
SPEAKER_01: people just flat out saying,
20:35
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to talk to a bot.
20:37
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to talk to a human.
20:39
SPEAKER_01: How do I get to talk to a human?
20:41
SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's still important.
20:42
SPEAKER_01: And so that's going to have to be addressed in some way.
20:47
SPEAKER_00: Creative writing is kind of a hobby of mine.
20:49
SPEAKER_00: And when ChatGVT was first making its waves,
20:53
SPEAKER_00: somebody called me up and asked the question,
20:55
SPEAKER_00: kind of like backhanded comp,
20:57
SPEAKER_00: not a compliment,
20:58
SPEAKER_00: but like,
20:59
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
21:00
SPEAKER_00: they were trying to needle me,
21:01
SPEAKER_00: but they were like,
21:02
SPEAKER_00: what do you think about this AI?
21:03
SPEAKER_00: Do you still want to write?
21:04
SPEAKER_00: Does it make you?
21:05
SPEAKER_00: And like, I...
21:07
But at that point,
21:08
I had already felt bad about how AI made writing easier,
21:14
almost disposable.
21:15
But I had already gotten over it because it occurred to me,
21:18
I don't read...
21:21
SPEAKER_00: like a book just because it's good.
21:23
SPEAKER_00: A lot of times I read a book because the author is good.
21:27
Like you could publish your own version of a Stephen King book
21:33
and nobody care.
21:34
SPEAKER_00: It would not be a bestseller.
21:36
SPEAKER_00: Stephen King could like,
21:37
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:38
SPEAKER_00: fart on a keyboard and be a bestselling author,
21:41
SPEAKER_00: publish a book for the month and be an author.
21:44
People buy because it's Stephen King,
21:46
not necessarily because it's a story.
21:49
SPEAKER_00: And the same is true for businesses.
21:52
People don't necessarily buy marketing because of how
21:58
convincing your website headline is.
22:00
They buy your law firm or your law firm services because a
22:06
friend recommended you
22:07
SPEAKER_00: or you helped with their friend's car accident case or they saw where you
22:11
SPEAKER_00: contributed the community or something else.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: Essentially, they're not buying your services because...
22:18
SPEAKER_00: You said it the best.
22:20
They're buying your services because they know you and on some
22:23
degree trust you.
22:24
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the part that people miss.
22:27
SPEAKER_00: And also the part that people miss is like,
22:28
SPEAKER_00: even though AI can write something,
22:31
SPEAKER_00: it still has to be good.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: And I have not seen good yet.
22:35
SPEAKER_00: Right.
22:36
And to me,
22:37
what I was using AI for specifically in my previous role was a
22:42
lot of fast learning.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: content.
22:45
Like if I needed to get something quick out of social media,
22:48
I'd write me something.
22:49
I'd load pictures or whatever was going to be in the post and
22:52
say,
22:53
hey,
22:53
give me a post.
22:54
SPEAKER_01: So it's more of a fast media thing,
22:55
SPEAKER_01: not necessarily a well thought out content or even creative material.
23:02
SPEAKER_01: It's just, okay, I needed this done quick.
23:04
SPEAKER_01: How fast can we do it?
23:05
SPEAKER_01: Let's move on and get it done.
23:06
SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of the way I saw it as a tool.
23:09
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I did actually use it to help rewrite some old like
23:14
SPEAKER_01: direct email campaigns to kind of go through it because that's a lot.
23:17
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
23:17
SPEAKER_01: you're looking at,
23:18
SPEAKER_01: if you have a well thought out,
23:19
SPEAKER_01: well built drip campaign,
23:21
you're looking at a lot of emails and content that you've got
23:23
to go through and
23:26
SPEAKER_01: using AI as a tool to help you get through that stuff quicker.
23:29
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of how I see it.
23:31
SPEAKER_01: I don't know how I see the benefit of it.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: Well,
23:35
SPEAKER_00: and I feel like a lot of people can relate to this,
23:38
SPEAKER_00: but with any job,
23:39
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
23:39
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to come up with examples and I'm like,
23:41
all of them require some level of writing that isn't
23:45
necessarily creative or
23:48
SPEAKER_00: performative.
23:48
SPEAKER_00: It's just, it's rote, it's generic.
23:51
We have to put a meta description on here because WordPress
23:55
won't let us publish it without it.
23:57
SPEAKER_00: And even though meta descriptions Google hasn't cared about since 2018.
23:59
SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right.
24:02
So it's like a lot of routine stuff that you just have to,
24:06
as a marketer,
24:07
get out the door.
24:08
SPEAKER_00: And that's the piece I think people overlook about marketing.
24:10
SPEAKER_00: You know, marketing is production.
24:13
SPEAKER_00: It's making stuff.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: And if you want to make good stuff,
24:17
SPEAKER_00: there's a process to it that you have to follow to create it.
24:20
SPEAKER_00: And you have to make systems to recreate it.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: And it, you know, it's not just like,
24:27
SPEAKER_00: ChatGVT make an image of me sitting at a desk with a bunch of law books.
24:31
SPEAKER_00: It's like, yeah, you could have got that anytime.
24:33
SPEAKER_00: You know, that's not, I don't know.
24:36
SPEAKER_00: But there's so much that's just routine in marketing,
24:40
SPEAKER_00: I guess,
24:41
SPEAKER_00: that again,
24:42
SPEAKER_00: like we tend to think of like the billboard,
24:45
SPEAKER_00: the ad,
24:46
SPEAKER_00: the ROI,
24:47
SPEAKER_00: but like there's work,
24:48
SPEAKER_00: you know,
24:48
SPEAKER_00: and I made a lot of that work tremendously easier.
24:51
SPEAKER_00: And now we get to do other cooler stuff.
24:55
SPEAKER_01: Right.
24:55
SPEAKER_01: And you can, I think it'll help a lot of like one person marketing team.
25:02
I mean,
25:02
it'll help those people because it'll help you get a lot more
25:05
done.
25:05
SPEAKER_01: It'll help smaller, like two elite people.
25:07
I mean,
25:08
it's just to use it as a tool,
25:10
I think is probably the best method of it.
25:13
SPEAKER_01: Who knows what they're going to develop.
25:15
SPEAKER_01: I mean, things could change within six months.
25:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:19
SPEAKER_01: But we'll see.
25:21
SPEAKER_01: I think the difficulty is going to be how to apply that and make sure,
25:25
SPEAKER_01: just like any other vendor,
25:26
make sure that it's successful in what it's supposed to do and
25:29
that the business is
25:31
SPEAKER_01: benefiting long-term from it.
25:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
25:37
SPEAKER_00: it makes making,
25:39
SPEAKER_00: doing the job easier,
25:40
SPEAKER_00: but,
25:41
SPEAKER_00: and I'm rehashing something I said in a talk not too long ago,
25:45
SPEAKER_00: but like,
25:47
SPEAKER_00: Morgan and Morgan didn't give OpenAI their proprietary marketing data.
25:51
Like your competitors didn't release their CPA and marketing
25:57
sources to OpenAI when
25:58
SPEAKER_00: they were developing ChatGPT.
26:00
SPEAKER_00: ChatGPT only knows what was publicly accessible on the internet.
26:05
And so it really can't make marketing decisions because it
26:08
doesn't have the data
26:09
SPEAKER_00: to...
26:09
SPEAKER_00: It can only see what others have done.
26:12
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I feel like it just...
26:16
the proof is like will it actually help you get more cases and
26:19
never forget
26:21
everyone has that same tool that's why i keep saying raise the
26:24
floor not the
26:25
ceiling like it's not gonna if it made every if chat to be team
26:30
made people
26:30
millionaires everyone would be a millionaire you know right and
26:33
end of story but it
26:35
SPEAKER_00: is the shiny new object the shiny new object with a capital team
26:41
SPEAKER_00: So, well, I don't know how much you want to share on this.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: I am curious.
26:45
And if you don't want to,
26:47
if you want to tell me and we'll edit it out,
26:48
just let me know.
26:49
SPEAKER_00: But like as a fractional CMO, what have been your challenges so far?
26:53
SPEAKER_01: Well,
26:56
SPEAKER_01: to be honest,
26:56
SPEAKER_01: I think the biggest challenge,
26:57
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
26:58
SPEAKER_01: it's trying to figure out number one,
27:00
SPEAKER_01: what to offer.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: And what people, I mean, what law firms need at this point.
27:06
I think that's been my biggest challenge is trying to determine
27:09
what I want to do
27:10
SPEAKER_01: and what I want to help firms do.
27:13
I mean,
27:14
when you're in a day-to-day job,
27:16
you know what you're doing every day.
27:17
SPEAKER_01: You have a specific goal.
27:20
SPEAKER_01: We had daily goals, weekly goals, monthly goals.
27:22
SPEAKER_01: And stepping away from that,
27:24
I think that's probably been the biggest challenge is trying to
27:26
figure out what
27:27
SPEAKER_01: direction I'm going to go in.
27:30
to not only be successful for me,
27:32
but obviously also to be successful for clients.
27:35
That's probably what I've been thinking about and trying to
27:37
maneuver through as I
27:40
SPEAKER_01: move forward in this new role.
27:44
SPEAKER_00: That is a challenge.
27:45
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
27:45
and sometimes there's a disconnect between what people buy and
27:50
like what they
27:51
SPEAKER_00: actually need.
27:52
Because I've seen business owners,
27:55
law firms,
27:55
attorneys buy things they do not need.
27:58
That's not going to help them that six months later,
28:01
I get to be like,
28:02
I told you so.
28:03
and you know and then on the flip side like you're telling them
28:07
like hey like let's
28:08
train your team to ask for reviews and then they hesitate and
28:12
it's just like that
28:13
last thing is actually going to get you a lot more money than
28:17
the twenty thousand
28:18
dollar video package you bought um and so like there there is a
28:23
disconnect and i
28:24
SPEAKER_00: hope
28:25
SPEAKER_00: The people who follow me or the people who work with me appreciate,
28:29
SPEAKER_00: I'm just trying to help you.
28:30
I'm not,
28:31
there are a lot of vendors out in this space who really just
28:33
don't care.
28:34
SPEAKER_00: Like their success is making the sale and.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: That's good for them.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: They're great for marketing themselves and building their own business.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: But they did so not on the principle of this will help law firms.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: They did it on the principle of this is something law firms will buy.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: I try my best to help people,
28:55
SPEAKER_00: but everyone,
28:57
SPEAKER_00: it's hard,
28:57
SPEAKER_00: you know,
28:58
SPEAKER_00: because I'm also a vendor selling my services.
29:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:03
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
29:04
that's another thing that I found has been a little bit
29:06
challenging for me is
29:07
SPEAKER_01: selling myself.
29:09
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
29:09
SPEAKER_01: my whole career has been selling the firm,
29:12
SPEAKER_01: which is a lot easier,
29:14
SPEAKER_01: really,
29:15
SPEAKER_01: than trying to sell yourself.
29:17
SPEAKER_01: So that has been a challenge too.
29:21
SPEAKER_01: And because you're entering a world where there's vendors,
29:23
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
29:24
SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you,
29:25
SPEAKER_01: the biggest,
29:25
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to say it's a surprise,
29:27
SPEAKER_01: but...
29:28
like,
29:29
like LinkedIn,
29:30
I mean,
29:31
LinkedIn really hasn't been an active platform for the firm.
29:35
SPEAKER_01: And so I did not just because the way that our audience has been set up,
29:40
SPEAKER_01: we in Northern West Virginia,
29:41
SPEAKER_01: we were lumped in and picked the Pittsburgh regional market.
29:45
And so there really wasn't a way to utilize LinkedIn as maybe
29:49
somebody in bigger
29:50
SPEAKER_01: cities could do.
29:52
And so it really wasn't a big part of my day to day type stuff,
29:55
but like,
29:55
like,
29:57
SPEAKER_01: That's obviously changed,
29:58
but I get a lot of messages and connection requests from
30:03
vendors and people that
30:04
SPEAKER_01: are salespeople that I know haven't looked at my profile.
30:09
One guy was asking me about how I wanted to work on intake and
30:14
those kinds of things.
30:15
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, dude...
30:18
SPEAKER_01: that's not even what I'm thinking about right now.
30:20
SPEAKER_01: And if you would have read anything on my LinkedIn profile,
30:23
SPEAKER_01: you would realize that's not what I'm looking for.
30:26
I don't know if they just saw,
30:28
they just searched legal marketers or personal injury.
30:31
SPEAKER_01: They may saw the history.
30:33
SPEAKER_01: It's just been the craziest things.
30:34
SPEAKER_01: And it's daily.
30:36
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's constant.
30:37
SPEAKER_01: And so I can only imagine what,
30:40
law firm owners are getting if that's what I'm getting and
30:44
they're not even looking
30:44
at my profile I just can't imagine and so just like you said
30:49
there's vendors out
30:50
SPEAKER_01: there and then there's some vendors that are just not scrupulous and so
30:55
SPEAKER_00: As somebody who's moderately good at self-promotion,
30:58
I also feel like I'm better at promoting a law firm than I am
31:01
at promoting myself
31:02
SPEAKER_00: sometimes.
31:03
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of funny, like how much, how shameless you have to be.
31:07
Like you just have to like,
31:08
whatever,
31:09
like I'll put myself out here and hope it works.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: And
31:14
SPEAKER_00: I can't explain it.
31:16
SPEAKER_00: Somehow it does.
31:17
SPEAKER_00: And here's the maddening thing about LinkedIn for me,
31:19
because I actually didn't start posting until I was getting
31:22
ready to leave GLM.
31:23
And I think as I was approaching leaving GLM was the first time
31:27
I started posting
31:28
SPEAKER_00: on it regularly.
31:30
And I was the first person at Great Legal Marketing and Bend
31:32
Glass Law to really care about it.
31:34
SPEAKER_00: Before then, you know, GLM was very anti-social media.
31:38
SPEAKER_00: And so we just weren't on it very much.
31:41
And so like I was testing the waters with it and wasn't getting
31:44
very much in terms
31:45
SPEAKER_00: of engagement.
31:46
SPEAKER_00: I've been doing it for like four years now.
31:48
So mercifully I get a few now,
31:51
but like for years I got like,
31:54
felt like goose eggs on each post.
31:56
SPEAKER_00: But then I would like go to an event or talk to an attorney or,
32:00
SPEAKER_00: and they'd be like,
32:01
SPEAKER_00: I follow you on LinkedIn,
32:02
SPEAKER_00: great stuff.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, well, like my shit.
32:04
like messing with my confidence i'm just like i'm gonna stop
32:07
posting nobody's like
32:08
tell me you like me tell me you like me it's just like i was
32:12
getting ready to give
32:13
up and now you're telling me you see it every day like what the
32:15
heck man and so
32:17
it's there's a lot of things like when it comes to promoting
32:20
yourself like it's
32:20
SPEAKER_00: just invisible
32:21
SPEAKER_00: Like you do it and hope it's working and you just gotta,
32:25
SPEAKER_00: honestly,
32:25
SPEAKER_00: you gotta be like kind of crazy and just stick with it and be delusional.
32:29
SPEAKER_00: And just so many people will kind of come along with you eventually.
32:32
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
32:33
That's my- And LinkedIn has a totally different algorithm than
32:36
like Facebook.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just different to stuff that you see.
32:39
SPEAKER_01: You see stuff like Facebook,
32:41
SPEAKER_01: it's usually about what's been recently posted every once in a while.
32:43
You'll get something that's a little bit old,
32:44
but on LinkedIn,
32:46
I feel like I'm always getting-
32:49
SPEAKER_01: like older stuff based on interactions.
32:52
SPEAKER_01: It's just weird.
32:53
SPEAKER_01: It's weird.
32:54
SPEAKER_01: Just something that you just, I guess, have to get used to.
32:56
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's just a different platform, different algorithm.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: And I guess that's probably across the board anyway.
33:02
SPEAKER_01: I'm not a big TikTok person.
33:04
SPEAKER_01: I'll do Instagram and Facebook, but I'm not a big TikTok person.
33:09
SPEAKER_01: When TikTok first came out,
33:10
it kind of freaked me out a little bit because they were so
33:12
specific on the
33:13
SPEAKER_01: algorithms and you would go down a hole and
33:16
SPEAKER_01: And like, how did you get there?
33:18
SPEAKER_01: And they kind of guided you there.
33:19
So after like the first few times I got a little wigged out by
33:24
where I ended up on
33:25
SPEAKER_01: TikTok,
33:25
SPEAKER_01: I was like,
33:26
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
33:26
SPEAKER_01: I think I'm not going to do this anymore.
33:30
but yeah when i first logged into tiktok i think like the
33:33
second video i saw was
33:34
tornado footage and like when i was a kid i was mega into storm
33:38
chasers the movie
33:39
twister had a massive impact on me as a child and then but i
33:42
kind of got over it i
33:43
grew up and then like tiktok showed me a tornado video and i
33:46
lingered on it and for
33:48
weeks and months i just tornado and what's terrible i was like
33:52
i am kind of into
33:53
SPEAKER_01: that stuff so yeah yeah yeah yeah it's
33:57
SPEAKER_00: Oh, now, you know, I'm into tornadoes, I guess.
33:59
SPEAKER_00: That's a new information for my listeners.
34:01
SPEAKER_00: They're like really twister Tiffany.
34:04
SPEAKER_00: Well, Jason, we went a little bit over on time.
34:06
SPEAKER_00: I have to admit I was trying because Charlie was on my podcast last week.
34:10
The episode hadn't been released and we recorded for nearly two
34:13
hours and I'm like,
34:14
SPEAKER_00: this is the longest episode in shark cookie history.
34:17
SPEAKER_00: So we're going to have to, I'm gonna have to step up.
34:20
I don't,
34:20
I'm not going to make you sit on here with me for two hours
34:23
though.
34:23
SPEAKER_00: We don't want to talk about pluribus.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, like I'll cut off there.
34:27
SPEAKER_01: Charlie can talk.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: Charlie can talk.
34:30
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's something he and I have in common.
34:33
SPEAKER_00: We're a talkative little group.
34:35
So,
34:36
well,
34:36
tell people how you want people to look you up and find and
34:38
learn more about you.
34:40
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
34:40
SPEAKER_01: Like I said, I'm becoming more active on LinkedIn.
34:43
SPEAKER_01: So I think LinkedIn is a big asset of that.
34:45
SPEAKER_01: I also have a website that I put out.
34:47
SPEAKER_01: It's very draft websites.
34:50
SPEAKER_01: It's fractionallegalmarketing.com is what the website is.
34:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:55
SPEAKER_01: And I've actually got it set up
34:57
to where people can go through and actually set an appointment
35:01
scheduled calendar
35:02
thing i'm pretty proud of myself i got that stuff i got it all
35:05
set up and it seems
35:06
to be functional but yeah that's you can find me on linkedin
35:09
obviously i'm on all
35:10
SPEAKER_01: the other social media platforms as well and then i do have the website
35:13
SPEAKER_01: fractionallegalmarketing.com that i grabbed so
35:18
SPEAKER_00: That's kind of jealous.
35:21
SPEAKER_01: Well, I'll tell you, it was neat.
35:24
But then when I'm trying to put my email in my business card,
35:27
it's so long.
35:28
I had to adjust things so it doesn't look like really bad and
35:33
not centered.
35:34
SPEAKER_01: My wife's working on it with me.
35:35
SPEAKER_01: She's like, that doesn't even look centered.
35:36
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, it's so long.
35:38
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, maybe that was a mistake, but it is what it is.
35:43
SPEAKER_00: Well, you got me thinking about sharpcookie.com.
35:47
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to get it.
35:47
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to get her one day.
35:48
SPEAKER_00: I just need enough money.
35:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:51
SPEAKER_01: Well, I appreciate you inviting me on here.
35:54
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's like I said, this is my first one.
35:56
SPEAKER_01: So I didn't know what to expect.
35:58
SPEAKER_01: I was nervous.
36:02
SPEAKER_00: I hope to be an easy podcast,
36:04
SPEAKER_00: you know,
36:04
SPEAKER_00: and I try to make it easy for,
36:06
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
36:06
SPEAKER_00: we're just having a conversation.
36:08
SPEAKER_00: We're talking about legal marketing.
36:09
SPEAKER_00: We do it every day.
36:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:10
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much, Jason.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening and being here with me today.
36:14
SPEAKER_00: Tune in for the next episode and we'll see you later.