Latest / Mortgage Marketing Radio / Ep #113: Building an $80 Million Dollar, 100% Referral Business

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Ep #113: Building an $80 Million Dollar, 100% Referral Business · Mortgage Marketing Radio

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In today's highly competitive mortgage industry, building profitable relationships with
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real estate agents is essential for success.
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However, finding effective ways to secure agent relationships can be a challenge.
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With so many mortgage loan originators vying for the attention of real estate agents, it
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can be difficult to stand out and establish meaningful connections.
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Our new case study featuring loan officer Chris Coghill is a must-read.
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Chris has closed a remarkable 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals.
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And in this case study, he shares his proven strategies for building strong relationships
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with real estate agents and leveraging those relationships to drive more business.
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To get your hands on this resource, head over to LOKestudy.com and download your free copy
0:45
of the case study today.
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You'll find actionable insights and practical tips that Chris used to close 36 million
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in funded loans from agent referrals and how you can, too.
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Don't miss out.
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Go check it out right now, visit LOKestudy.com and download your free copy today.
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Mortgage Marketing Radio, brought to you by the Mortgage Marketing Institute, your
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number one source for truth in mortgage marketing.
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Hey listeners, Jeff Simphur, thanks for tuning into another episode of the Mortgage Marketing
1:37
Radio podcast.
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I appreciate you for tuning in.
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If you're a first-time listener, welcome, appreciate you being here.
1:45
And if you've been with us for a while, welcome back and appreciate you tuning back in consistently.
1:50
And if you wouldn't mind if you're getting value from these episodes, hey, we'd love
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you sharing a little bit of love on the internet.
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A little review out there on iTunes, stick here wherever you're listening to this.
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That helps us reach more people and make a difference in more people's lives.
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So appreciate that.
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Number one, number two, we've got to make sure to remind you guys if any of you listening
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right now want to go to the next level in your career, want to get more agent referrals
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and relationships, want to build your brand, personal brand on social media online with
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video marketing, Facebook ads and the like.
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Be sure and check out the local happenings we've got for our members at our Mortgage
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Marketing.pro membership.
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Lots of good stories happening over there as a matter of fact, let me pull up on real
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quick foyer right here.
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One of the things we do at the Mortgage Marketing Pro community is that we help originators
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reach maximum agents in minimum time and drive engagement and referrals from real estate
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agents.
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And we do that by relying on what is proven to be the most efficient, effective, quickest
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way to do that.
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That is by teaching agents to fish, pouring value into agents, educating them, help them grow
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their business.
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How do we do that teaching agent classes?
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One of our members, who's one of the top loan officers, top producing loan officers
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with Nova home loans in Colorado, Michelle Farman auto, what's up?
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She just did a class yesterday, she had 12 agents show up, quality realtors, not newbies.
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And Michelle points out on our Facebook group here that she barely even marketed it, she
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had like a weak lead time of marketing.
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So the turnaround, the attendance on that was strong, 15 reservations, 12 showed up,
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12 out of 15, okay, the content was disrupted by surviving the digital real estate shift.
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The feedback is they love the content and got, she's already set some follow up appointments
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on the books and they inquired, requested to be invited to future classes.
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She's doing it again in two weeks and I guarantee she'll have higher attendance and by
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then we'll have some stories of how many loans she's gotten referred by then.
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So if you want to learn more about that kind of stuff, go check it out at mortgagemarketing.pro.
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Okay, next we want to give a quick shout out to the industry syndicate, I'm a proud member
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of the industry syndicate and if you like content here and you're looking for more
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good content, loan officer, realtor content, podcasts, Alexa, flash briefings, Facebook
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live shows, YouTube channel shows, you name it, you can find all that and more under
4:15
one single roof at the industry syndicate, check them out at industry syndicate.com, real
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estate's first media network.
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Okay, let's get into my special guest this week.
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I am bringing to you Mr. Rob Wishnick VP of mortgage lending out of Philly, go dirty birds
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Philly.
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And we are talking about Rob's story, how he went in just four years, took his production
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from 12 million to 80 million, 243 loans in 2018 for 80 million in fundings.
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Perhaps more significantly folks was the fact he was able to go is actually doubled this
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business in one year in one year.
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So we're going to unpack how he does that.
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He gets 100% of his businesses referral 95% of his purchase business from real estate
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agents.
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He has about two to three dozen core agents that are on his a list team that consistently
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send them almost 100% of their business if they can control that.
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So we're going to unpack this.
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We're going to talk about how what really changed Rob's business was how he forced himself
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to get outside of his comfort zone.
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And he had a shift in mindset and looking at himself and how he identified himself as
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a mortgage professional.
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You'll hear him talk about that.
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You'll hear him talk about some of the daily activities he does and what he's doing to
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consistently grow his brand and is he worried about disruptors like Zelo and Quicken.
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Is he concerned?
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He'll hear his story and more.
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So without further ado, let's get into this week's show.
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Hey Rob, welcome to the show.
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Thank you.
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Thank you for having me.
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You bet, man.
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I appreciate you being here from Philly, the city of brotherly love, isn't it?
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Right.
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Are you feeling the brotherly love out there?
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Yeah.
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Right.
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So I just came along so we're all ready for baseball season now.
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So yeah.
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So yeah.
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Yeah, man.
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Do you got tickets or what?
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I just pick up as needed.
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No.
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No season tickets.
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Yeah.
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What was there's a whole story there, right?
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I'm not in with the Dodgers, right?
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He went to Philly because of the taxes partly.
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There were about three or four cities I think he was thinking about and at the end of
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the day, I think he was looking to finish his career in a city and we give him that contract.
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So give him the best offer.
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What's that contract worth?
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330.
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330 million for 13 years.
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We're in the wrong business, right?
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Yeah, right.
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I should have stuck with Little League.
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I doubt I'd be anywhere close to that.
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All right, man.
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Let's get into it.
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Because I know you're busy.
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So quick background intro.
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For the listeners, tell us who is Rob.
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What does he do?
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Why does he love doing loans?
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Rob Wishnick, guaranteed rate.
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I got in this business 16 years ago, four years ago, came to guaranteed rate and that's
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where the business really took off.
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Learned the business the right way, had some great people to teach me the business, got
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came in knowing absolutely zero and I just learned the business the right way, learned
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about processing and learning how to put the file together, understand guidelines where
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they were coming from so that I could thoroughly explain it to a client.
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And then I got to a point in my business where it was sort of getting stale and I was getting
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a little bored and wasn't sure what the next step was with that first company for 12
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years and then found GR.
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And that's where it really took off, just more resources, processing system that allowed
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me to go out and go look for business, gave me a free meal to get out of the office
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and that was the start to being a game changer and then something in me just sparked as it
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started to get busier.
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It was easier for me to have more confidence go out and teach what we do best.
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And it just continues to take off, make myself uncomfortable every day, get myself into
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doors that I probably wouldn't have had a shop before but business, business and you
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start to do more business and more people want to talk to you.
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So that's really where it took off.
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All right, so there's a few things I want to unpack in there.
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Let's first handle the numbers for those listening, 2018 units in volume.
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243 units were 80.7 in volume, 80.7 million in volume.
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Right, okay.
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Congratulations, by the way, that's a hell of a lot of units.
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What does your team look like, who's helping you manage all that?
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Yeah, so my team is, I'm really my service I built around trying to make an optimal experience
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for the borrower.
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So I'm leaner on the marketing side.
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I let a lot of guaranteed rich resources take that out over for me.
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So my team is two processors, someone then to start the file and start chasing conditions
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in the very beginning.
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And then I have a sales support who is my right hand and I really helps getting a lot
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of estimates out for me working up some of the deals so that if I'm on the road and
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so a client needs to prepare for real quickly, needs some numbers to wrap them really quickly
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so that they don't want to make an offer, he's helping with that information, watching
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the pipeline, making sure that's flowing again, if I'm away from my desk, so that there's
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somebody behind the scene always watching the pipeline.
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Okay, those two processors, are they dedicated only to you?
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No, no, no, no, so we have a two processor system.
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One basically takes the file from application to commitment lighter and the second takes
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from commitment to closing.
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So the first in line can handle more deals.
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So I share that first with number one officer and then the second is dedicated to me.
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All right, cool.
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Thank you.
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That's, you know, whenever loan officers listen, they'd love to know that details about
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wait a minute, he's got two full time processors.
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The wonder he's doing 243 units, that's what you hear Rob, we're here to dispel that
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that's not why that is.
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Okay, very good stuff.
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Now, so you know that, you know, kind of the focus I want to have for this conversation
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is the journey from 12 million to 80 million because you did that in, as you shared,
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four short years.
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And that is like a big jump.
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I'm trying to do the math on that four years, ten.
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So what was that like a 20 million lift a year, maybe a little bit less than that?
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Over four years.
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So, yeah, first year one from about 12 14 to 30 million, then the second year, the first
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year.
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My first year, yeah, yeah, was from 12 or 14, I can't remember the year when I ended,
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but when it first year, I was 30, then I went to 56, 64, and then 80.
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Wow.
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Okay.
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So you set a couple of things in your intro, which was, you know, there was a point in your
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career where you're like, hey, maybe it's, it's like time to make a change.
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Now, do you want to talk about, because, you know, you've referenced it a couple of
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times, guaranteed rate and some of the resources they have that free you up to be able to
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go originate, which is like your main job.
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But I don't want to overlook the fact that you said something switched in you.
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And the reason why I don't want to overlook that is because I think that is oftentimes
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the differentiator between somebody who doubles their business any year or not.
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So can you just maybe briefly unpack if you look back at that point, right?
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Here at 12, 14 million, whatever you're deciding to make a career change or shift companies,
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simultaneously something switched in you, man.
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What was that?
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Yeah.
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So I was getting pretty bored of, you know, writing another application.
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It was just the same Monday and half over and over, and then the knowing that I was,
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you know, having my hand in chasing a lot of documents, you know, helping with the,
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helping the processors get to the finish line.
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It was just, it was every loan became a heavy, heavy task.
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So when that was freed up from me, it allowed me more time to really go out and sell.
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So I saw it as an opportunity.
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I've always been an obiturant part from the time I was 12 years old.
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And I saw it.
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I've always had my hand in a number of things and nothing, nothing full time except for
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being a loan officer, but just always different interests.
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And when I made the move that you are because it had gotten to a point where I was getting
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pretty bored and there was getting that the job was getting pretty stale for me.
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I said, I'm freeing up everything else.
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I'm making one real run at this to be caught, you know, to really boost my volume and make
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this a career because I didn't even state as a career as more to job.
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And you know, it was my own business, but it was becoming a job and that just excitement
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was gone.
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So, earning a G.R. getting rid of all those other interests and really just making this,
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this was the business.
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You went all in.
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It really helped my mentality and boosting everything.
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So am I hearing then you had some other distractions because of your entrepreneurial nature that
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was stealing away from your attention?
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Yep, absolutely.
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And you know, we talked to, you know, you're working with realtors and you're talking to
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your clients and everyone has their own things going on and it's interesting and it's interesting
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to hear people's stories and what they're involved in and especially the real estate community
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in Philadelphia where we've gone through this boom too and people are involved in all sorts
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of development projects and you name it and you know, it's hard not to get interested
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in that.
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But you know, the best thing for me in my career was just that tunnel vision.
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So focus on the loan.
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Yeah, so that's awesome.
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And you kind of had like a light switched on or whatever and you're like, okay, if I'm
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going to do this, I'm going to go all in.
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I like that.
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What any couple of highlights though, like you talked about a mentor who helped you kind
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of get started in the business, is there anything you can highlight that when you made
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that switch, you did noticeably differently as compared to before in terms of maybe your
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daily activities or your disciplines or things like that?
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Sure.
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So, again, going back to that, making myself uncomfortable, you know, by nature, part
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of me, even though I am a salesperson, I think my initial instinct is to just want to
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stay at my computer and handle the pipeline and email and talk, but just getting out
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more, getting out in front of agents, getting out in front of consumer events, so making
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myself, forcing myself to do that more, really paid off.
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And you realize, hey, you know, there's people don't want to be in this alone, people
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don't want to sit in front of their computer all day to get people out, sometimes it's
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a pressure for them, especially real estate agents, you know, depending on what type of
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environment they're in, a lot of them are on their own islands and, you know, if you
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can help support them and give them a nice environment to be working from, you know,
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you can invite them out to coffee, lunch, whatever, they're more than willing to be receptive
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to that.
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So, what are some of the things that you do or did that get where outside of your comfort
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zone?
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Sure.
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Face-to-face consumer meetings, I wasn't doing that all that often, so I started doing
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that a bit more, asking for business, you know, but delicately, and in my own way, asking
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for business.
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From agents?
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From agents?
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Exactly.
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Why aren't we working together?
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What can I do differently?
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What can I do to help?
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You know, but beyond the basic pitch, you know, I try so hard in my business to just not
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be like others, you know, like what I see as other law officers, I don't want to be
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the nag.
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I don't want to be the thorn in an agent's side that's just another when they're asking
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for business.
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You know, I try to bring my own little value proposition to the speaker that everyone
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does, so, you know, asking for business is a big thing, so it's, you know, but delicately
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doing that.
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Well, all right.
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So, you try to bring your own value proposition, right?
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We hear that term thrown around a lot, I'd be interested to learn what is your value
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proposition, perhaps, how you articulate that to realtors.
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Sure.
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So, the experience plays a lot into it.
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This is my career, first and foremost.
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I'm in this to, you know, make sure that, you know, at the end of the day, you're going
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to get your commission.
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Mr. Mrs. Reiler, you know, that's important where you gave us that referral.
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We're going to make you shine, but really what my team, what I try to really preach with
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my team and what goes out to clients is trust and transparency.
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At the end of the day, you know, we saw a lot of dirty things in this business between
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when I started 2003 and 2010, and, you know, so I know when a client comes to me that they
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are going to get that trust, they're going to get that transparency, but we promise in
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the beginning is what they're going to wind up with, they're not going to have to worry
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about any sort of thing switch or knowing that there's not a professional working with
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them at all times.
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So it's that preaching that trust and transparency, I never, ever, ever will get at the closing
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table or somebody will ever say that what they got at the table is not exactly what they
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are promised.
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So do you have like any type of a guarantee that you actually state, right, that the closing
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cost will match the estimate or anything like that?
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So no, you know, what I let it tell people is you're working with a local lending expert,
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you know, I think the word guarantee is really thrown around way too loosely these days.
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I've never felt the need to put that on paper or that pay here is the closing cost guarantee
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or whatever because at the end of the day, we're going to make things right, you know, we
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don't even have the, obviously, ability to change fees or anything like that, like, you
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know, it's not even an option, but, you know, it's one of the things I actually, as weird
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as it sounds like one thing that I actually do like doing is I do like working up estimates
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for clients.
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So like, what I'll tell people when I send them off to the payroll is shoot me an address.
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You see something, you're out with your realtor, you see something that you like, shoot me
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an address from there, I can show you what everything's all about, like three, four different
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scenarios.
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You know, we do on 20% done, 10% done, whatever with monthly PMI without, you know, so it's
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actually sort of like that.
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We've got some cool systems that you are that really allows to do that pretty quickly
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and it's a nice, clean format that we've always put out with these estimates.
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So it's very easy for consumers to understand.
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Yeah, that's an interesting thing to highlight there is that you, it seems to be if I'm hearing
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this correctly, that you're when possible, you're always giving people more than one loan
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option to choose from, like three.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Absolutely.
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In our market, 30 are fixed this thing.
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I mean, most people don't have, as I said, they need a, they need a, they need a
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very approval and you know what they're asking for, they're asking for 30 effects, you
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know, but, but if, you know, you talk, as you talk to them and you get to know their situation
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better, it's this only a short-term property for you and are you, like, delivering the
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short-term though, should we be talking, adjustable rate should be talking, if it's in your
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fixed, one of your fixed, so, you know, for the most part in our market, fixed rate is
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king and 30 year fixed is the primary amount of the business.
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I mean, literally more than, more than 95% of the loans we're doing, I'm doing actually,
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so it's, it doesn't really come up with too many other programs otherwise, but we
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throw the options out there if they want to hear them.
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Well, yeah, so I want to unpack that a little bit because, you know, I know that, you know,
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like you said, entrepreneur, sales professional, all that kind of stuff, kind of a best practice
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in sales is to allow the consumer to have a choice.
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Is that a standard practice for you to like always show up to three options and then that
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helps the customer kind of be educated and position you as a trusted advisor?
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Sure.
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So, at the very onset, I'm trying to get two numbers from the client.
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How much do you want to use for this transaction?
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You know, it doesn't fill it up because the costs are pretty steep.
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So how much do you want to use for this transaction and there's no wrong answer?
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And number one is that and then number two is what, where is that monthly payment comfort
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level?
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Everything but utilities, give me a sense of how much you're looking to spend and based
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on those two numbers, I'm going to help you find a range that you should be looking
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in.
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And then if you use me as a sense, all right, should we be looking for a seller assist
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in the deal or should we be looking for pushing more towards the down payment and the
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assist for closing costs and things like that.
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So those two numbers from there, I can run with a lot and show them options.
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Right.
21:16
Right.
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So many people come to you and they think that the down payment is everything and that
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they can roll closing costs into a purchase and it's like, well, that's not that simple
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and we got to dedicate a decent amount, you know, it's over typically over 5% for closing
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costs in Philadelphia.
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So it's pretty substantial amount.
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So where's that money coming from and are you using all of your savings to get in?
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Is that a wise move or are we saving for any day fund here?
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So just getting to know that and it really doesn't take long taking a couple of extra minutes
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of the client.
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You can really find out so much and what their needs really are and then you go with the
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rest.
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So, you know, we're not advisors, so to speak, but it builds that trust.
21:59
So you are the first point of contact then for somebody inquiring about a loan.
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Correct.
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And most of those conversations are over the phone versus in person or is it a mix?
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Yeah, usually phone.
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We have a great digital mortgage.
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So more and more, I try and push people towards that.
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That is a huge piece of my business like, hey, take this 10 minutes.
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This is just the fact finding mission.
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You could put any number you want and they put a million dollars, you could $50,000.
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It really doesn't matter.
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But this is the fact finding mission for us.
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It's going to tell us your income, going to show us your credit, what's going on with
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that ratio.
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And from there, we're going to have a conversation and get to those two numbers.
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But at the very onset, it's like start thinking about these two numbers.
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Start thinking about that cash to close that you want to use and start thinking about
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that monthly payment.
22:43
And from there, then we're going to guide you to that range.
22:46
So that obviously that initial conversation is kind of short because you want to get the
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data and push them off to the app.
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Then on that follow up conversation, on average, how long are those conversations with people?
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Yeah, really 10, 15 minutes, as long as people need, but really 10, 15 minutes, once we
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have the information, 10, 15 minutes is usually all we need.
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So there's a lot of talk, you know, I guess it's all about your style and the different
23:12
pox to the country are different and type of buyer.
23:15
There's a lot of talk about, like, you know, the goals and the dreams and the wants conversations
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with people when they're buying a home and spending, you know, going deep if you can with
23:24
people to kind of build that fence around it, right?
23:27
Are you consciously trying to do that?
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Or could you give me a little bit of insights of to what your goal is during that longer
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conversation?
23:35
Sure.
23:36
So it's all about meeting their needs.
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So do you want to be a housewife or do you want that cushion?
23:45
And most people, but when you talk to them, they're going to be a little more conservative
23:50
off the bat.
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And that's fine because that's a starting point.
23:53
Like, here's the range, based on the number you gave me, here's the range that I think
23:56
we should be looking at.
23:57
I think you should be looking at it.
23:59
Are you looking at a property with a tax of them and they're not, you know, what areas
24:02
you're looking at, so it gives me a sense of where where I should be at the estimating
24:07
taxes, which is obviously the number we don't have at that point, but we have a sense of
24:11
these are the way they're looking.
24:13
And from there, it's like, here's the range I think is going to be within your comfort
24:16
zone.
24:17
And let's talk to your agent, let's get you started with a search for up to set amount.
24:22
And then if you think you're, as you start to see places, if you think that you're not
24:27
finding something in that range and you think you're willing to sacrifice a little bit
24:31
either on the monthly or maybe putting a little more cash into it, then then we bump
24:36
up the amount.
24:37
And I really will ever give a pre-approval just for a maximum amount.
24:44
It's one of my least favorite requests that I get in the business because why lay those
24:49
cards out to a seller, first of all?
24:51
And then why put yourself in an uncomfortable position, you know, for some reason you've
24:55
decided to put an offer and you didn't ask me for the numbers beforehand.
24:59
And now all of a sudden, you got yourself into this contract and you're petrified of the
25:03
monthly payment.
25:04
Why didn't we have this conversation before?
25:07
So it's like, come back to me.
25:08
I'm like, I don't want to give you a pre-approval.
25:10
Yes, you're pre-approval.
25:11
Congratulations.
25:12
But I don't want to give you a lot of, yeah, once you see something that you think you
25:16
may want to make an offer on, send me an address, let me run some numbers for you, make
25:21
sure you're comfortable, and then we'll fire off the pre-approval letter in there.
25:24
Okay.
25:26
I wrote down from our last chat that if this is correct, 100% of your business is referral.
25:31
Yeah, 100%.
25:32
Yep.
25:33
Exactly.
25:34
And that's mostly from agents.
25:36
Yep.
25:37
Yeah, agents and a business network that I've built over the years, but I do like, it's
25:42
almost all agents.
25:45
I'm thinking of the conversation of rate shoppers, right, and the context of you getting most
25:51
100% of your business as a referral from real estate agents, you know, one, you assume
25:55
that there's the implied trust that comes with that referral so that the shopping perhaps
26:01
would be reduced.
26:02
But I'm curious what you're seeing or to what degree are you experiencing, right, rate
26:08
shopping, for example.
26:09
Sure.
26:10
We're in a major market.
26:12
There's banks at every corner of the city, so it comes up a lot.
26:18
And that's where you have to, you know, experience this key.
26:22
What we do here in Billy and our branch, I mean, the amount of business that we do out
26:26
of our branch is huge.
26:28
We've made ourselves the household name in Billy as a trusted lender.
26:34
And so that's a huge piece, you know, you're maximizing your chances getting to the closing
26:39
table.
26:40
Those horror stories you hear about it closing from your friends and family that they've
26:44
made horrendous experiences like closing, flowing up things like that.
26:48
We just don't let that happen.
26:49
We do a lot of homework up front.
26:52
We, there's so many pieces to the machine, there's many kinds of machine that we are working
26:57
on and making sure everything is moving through the system as it should, that your commitments
27:01
are being met.
27:02
You're, you know, the closing time, we're not late on anything.
27:09
And the, the rate shopping, you know, you can't avoid it with all the online advertising
27:15
today.
27:16
I mean, once you type the word mortgage into Google, there's off to the races that you're
27:20
going to come up on every single, every website you go to now and ads going to pop up with
27:24
disgustingly low rates.
27:25
And it's like, well, there's a lot of fine print.
27:27
We're not a one size fits all business.
27:30
And do you want to get into like a fast-talking phone salesman or do you want somebody that's
27:35
going to walk you through this process and you're going to have someone on my team and
27:39
me, my cell phone, text me, call me any time.
27:42
I really, you know, it's 24 or 7 and you're going to have somebody at all time holding
27:47
your hand here.
27:48
So you don't often have this situation where people don't recognize your company's brand?
27:51
Oh, no we do.
27:52
Yeah, we do.
27:53
I mean, it's, again, we're in a major metropolitan area.
27:57
So we're surrounded by the big banks.
28:00
Who's your highest competitor there in Philly, I'm curious.
28:03
It's the in-house lenders, you know, that maybe where the first point of contact, the
28:12
first point of contact for the consumer because they were sold on convenience.
28:17
But it's a different mentality.
28:18
You know, when you have someone that is literally just being, they know certain deals are going
28:23
to wind up on their desk at the end of every day and somebody that has to fight for it,
28:28
it's a different mentality.
28:29
So, you know, I've got to earn the trust on every single deal with the agent who's sending
28:34
me that referral.
28:35
Well, all right, that's good, by the way, thank you for sharing that.
28:38
And, you know, we could keep going deeper on your whole consumer conversation strategy
28:43
and you're welcome to throw in anything else you want.
28:46
But what I'd like to do perhaps is pivot then to this discussion around 100% of your business
28:50
is coming from referral.
28:52
So there's two directions to talk about there.
28:54
Number one, I'd love to learn about, you know, how you've built such a reliable, loyal
29:00
dare I say, right, group of real estate agents and how many A-player agents are on your
29:06
bus right now?
29:07
Yes.
29:08
So, I probably, I'd say agents that I get every single one of their leads that I am truly
29:19
their preferred one, they're, it's probably about two and a half
29:24
to three dozen.
29:25
Yeah.
29:26
And then the next, let's say, two, three dozen, I'm one of their two or three preferred
29:35
one.
29:36
And then after that, you know, we'll get to save deals and we'll get the one off so that
29:42
the business referral from my business network, things like that.
29:46
Dude, I mean, hold on, pause, stop the presses.
29:48
I mean, two dozen, let's just say, 24 realtors who are like, fall on the sword loyal to you
29:56
whenever they can possibly direct the deal to you, they're not doing the three card thing.
30:02
Ideally not, you know, they may have their sources, but at the end of the day, they're
30:08
going to say, look, you can shut up around, but this is, yeah, it's your absolute right
30:12
to shop around, but at the end of the day, this is the guy you're going to be working
30:15
with.
30:16
He's the guy that you can trust.
30:17
He's not going to be us, you know, he's going to get you to the table and he's going to
30:20
get you to graduate.
30:21
All right.
30:22
So, and how do you get to that level with an agent?
30:25
Yeah.
30:26
It's time and time again.
30:27
You got to deliver.
30:28
I mean, at the end of the day, it is about delivering, you know, you really have to be
30:33
sharp.
30:34
Yeah.
30:35
The toughest thing that I've had as I've been growing is trying to step out of the business
30:42
a little bit more to business develop while maintaining the same service.
30:48
And it is hard, but you know, it is, it is a daily task at the end of the day.
30:53
I am hitting inbox zero, whether it's just to follow up with somebody and say, hey, I
30:59
saw your message.
31:00
Let me get back to you tomorrow.
31:01
Let me work on something for you, but it's, you know, you got to be there with the
31:06
responses.
31:07
You have to be there with, with the right answers.
31:10
And it's okay to sometimes not have the answer, but you're going to get the answer.
31:13
But you have to always deliver and at the end of the day, that's real, sir.
31:18
This is their livelihood, too.
31:19
You have to make them look good.
31:20
You have to appreciate that this, they are your business partner and the ones that truly
31:25
treat me as a business partner, you know, that's where it's, it's invaluable.
31:30
We're going to do everything.
31:32
We're going to, we're going to be, we're backwards to make sure that their client is happy
31:36
and that they're going to say something to the realtor that said, hey, thanks for
31:39
affordable.
31:40
It has to rob and guarantee rate, you know, you really helped us.
31:44
And thank you for the, sir.
31:46
Okay.
31:47
All right.
31:48
So we're going to get a little bit more tactical for those listening that, you know,
31:50
hear that figure because it's quite mind blowing to me as well.
31:53
I mean, I didn't have that many, you know, I'm similar to you about 70, 80 percent of
31:57
what my business was referral from real estate agents.
32:00
But it's changed, you know, and there is this kind of psychology of sometimes I've
32:04
liked the three card of the double apping.
32:06
Okay.
32:07
So what I wanted to get this question out of the way because it's just coming back in
32:11
my head.
32:12
I have to do it.
32:13
How many prequel or loan app, right, calls are you taking on average a day?
32:19
Two to three.
32:20
Two to three.
32:21
All right.
32:22
So do you have a mentality of like a loan a day or something like that?
32:25
No.
32:26
That was the goal was like to write last year was to try to get to one loan for every
32:32
business day close.
32:33
Now I'm trying to make it one loan per calendar day.
32:36
So, you know, now we're entering crazy seasons in January February, you know, it's tough
32:45
to not hit the panic button and be like, why am I not getting all these late days?
32:50
It's January, you know, it's supposed to be slow, but we try to make it not so seasonally
32:55
more.
32:56
Okay.
32:57
Just just jump back on to the agent thing.
32:58
I should get a get that out of my brain.
33:00
All right.
33:01
So for the agents, do you make yourself available 24, seven, you know, what are the parameters
33:06
you set on those agent relationships in terms of that?
33:09
Yes.
33:10
So probably don't take my advice on this, but it's, it's a, this is for me on all, you know,
33:16
it is, I definitely have my times where I shut off.
33:19
They're not set times, but my phone is always on and I have a habit of looking at it.
33:25
So if I can't handle something, I'm trying to get my team to notice, like I said, my,
33:30
my assistant, he's on the opposite.
33:32
So we, the opposite, we really make sure that they're working normal hours because we've
33:38
have to keep them sane for sure.
33:41
The, my team member that helps with the sales cycle, he's on every email so he sees everything
33:48
that's coming in and between us for delegating.
33:51
If I need to be out for a couple hours, he's monitoring that stuff a little bit more.
33:57
But you know, it's, I can't say I'm not looking at it seven days a week.
34:02
No, I get it.
34:03
I mean, but do you also kind of like, if you're out at the, you know, the family barbecue
34:06
or picnic or in the movie, I mean, you stepping out?
34:09
Yeah.
34:10
Trying to be more mindful with that.
34:13
Absolutely.
34:14
Are you married?
34:15
No.
34:16
I definitely have hard downtime and I have my family kind of certain, no doubt about that.
34:22
But like after nine, you won't take all, you'll take somebody back, whatever.
34:26
Exactly.
34:27
But that's where again, our digital mortgage helps so much, like, hey, I'm not at my
34:33
laptop right now.
34:34
I can't help you write this second.
34:36
Can you spend 10 minutes online, build this out as messy can?
34:39
Let me, once I get a chance, I'm going to review it for you.
34:42
Okay.
34:43
Make it a 24-7 business by having, no, it's just like it's fantastic and then you're
34:48
still going to review everything, you know?
34:50
Yeah.
34:51
So I don't know.
34:52
There's two roads you go, right?
34:53
One is just like, hey, man, come at me.
34:54
I'm all, I'm all in.
34:55
I'm available 24-7 and then there's the, you know, people who are like, you know, building
35:00
some communication expectations around that with their agents as they bump up against
35:05
that.
35:06
Like, if you have an agent, it's like, hey, man, I texted you at nine o'clock, 10 o'clock
35:09
because you didn't respond and it's like, hey, you know what, let's build some expectations
35:12
here around.
35:13
Right.
35:14
Right.
35:15
So I try to lay it out that like, hey, if you need, if it's an emergency and it's nine
35:21
o'clock at night and you need to get in the office tonight, let me know.
35:26
Just let me know the urgency because if it can wait till the morning, like, let's just
35:31
point until the morning, you know, it's, but, you know, if it, but if it isn't on godly
35:35
hour and it's, it's necessary, you have to get this offer in, you have against three
35:39
other offers and as they come in tonight, just text me, running out and we'll make sure
35:45
it happens for you.
35:46
All right.
35:47
Then there's two, two last things, I guess, areas I want to talk about is one, how do you
35:53
market and promote yourself to agents because you get sounds like a big database of agents
35:57
if you will, right?
35:58
Even your inner circle is two to three dozen, like you said.
36:02
How did you, what's some best practices on how you're getting in front of those agents
36:06
to get them to choose you?
36:08
Sure.
36:09
So reputation, honestly, some of the eights for those initial core dozen put me in touch
36:15
with the next dozen.
36:16
You know, it's, if you do a good job for someone, they become, you know, they become
36:20
your door, so to speak.
36:21
Yeah.
36:22
But let's hold on here.
36:23
Here's, see, see a lot, a lot of top producers tend to gloss over that because that
36:28
doesn't happen automatically.
36:30
I'm sure you were proactive about it in asking agents after you close a transaction, hey,
36:35
who do you, who else do you know, other agents that are looking for a good lender?
36:38
Right.
36:39
And to be honest, you get to a point where you don't even have to ask that.
36:43
They, you become friends with them, you know, the business partners, they become friends.
36:49
This is the referral part of the business, you know, it's, you want to do business with
36:54
people you get along with, you want to do business with people that you respect.
36:58
And if you do a good job for them, they want to see succeed, just like anybody else,
37:02
you know, people that, that like you want you to succeed and they want to be your billboard
37:07
without asking.
37:08
And, you know, so, so yeah, there's no, there's an appropriate time and, and I had, in
37:12
my first 10 years in the business, I really had an issue with that.
37:16
I mean, it's because I didn't want to step on the toes.
37:19
If I was, let's say, the preferred agent for someone and then you asked for business
37:25
for somebody in that office, are they going to be threatened by that?
37:28
And some agents who up would be threatened by that.
37:30
So it's, there's a right time and a place.
37:33
And then, but again, the agents that really want you to succeed and want their lenders
37:39
to be like the, the expert here in the transaction and the, and the quarterback in the transaction,
37:45
they're happy to throw your name out.
37:47
Do you do things today on a weekly or monthly basis that put you in front of agents that
37:51
could be something like classes or the, you know, the board of realtor events or happy
37:55
hours and stuff like that?
37:57
Yeah, so I'm trying to get out, you know, most, most meetings are over coffee, lunch, happy
38:04
hour just with an agent or maybe invite a couple of agents out.
38:08
I'll throw a couple of events a year.
38:10
My client appreciation events are not really geared towards my, my true clients, the borrowers.
38:16
They're more geared towards like, towards realtor and, and if, and that was another thing.
38:22
So like, to realtor's want to just be in a room with all real estate agents.
38:26
Like, is that fun for them?
38:28
But, you know, Missouri lost company and every time I'm in a room with, it was several
38:34
mortgage people.
38:35
So I wind up gravitating towards, and you just share war stories and things like that.
38:39
So it's, the feedback I always get when I have events is that it was a great time and
38:44
it was great to catch up with some of their peers and, it was a fun thing itself.
38:49
So I try to have some, some events like that.
38:52
How often do you do those?
38:55
I try quarterly.
38:56
I'm one quarterly.
38:57
Should I be doing more monthly?
38:59
Yeah.
39:00
Yeah, definitely.
39:01
Well, how many, how many agents attend those on average?
39:03
Every quarter?
39:04
Usually about 2000.
39:05
Okay.
39:06
All right.
39:07
Nice.
39:08
Yeah.
39:09
Okay.
39:10
Yeah.
39:11
I'm a little bit with my business contacts to, so that it's not just real estate agents in
39:17
the room that there's some other people for them to meet.
39:20
So I like to keep it a little bit fresh and have people network.
39:24
So.
39:25
And so you just host that at some kind of local bar restaurant, whatever.
39:28
Are you paying the whole thing or doing the drink, drink tickets thing or what?
39:32
It really, it depends on the event.
39:36
I try to have something other than drinking just because that's been a, that could be
39:41
problem.
39:42
Yeah.
39:43
Everyone could get a drink, but you know, we try to keep it a little educational for
39:48
them.
39:49
I brought business coaches into an event before just, you know, it's, that can be a great
39:56
thing.
39:57
So you're combining, it's like this mixture thing, but you're also providing some value
39:59
through a sketch speaker or content or something.
40:01
Yeah.
40:02
Got it.
40:03
How's any, any real estate offices?
40:05
Are you like popping into their meetings and doing market updates?
40:08
Yeah.
40:09
Some of the larger teams I'll, I'll try and pop in and, and give some information for
40:15
them by, I'm not an in-house, a affiliated lender anywhere.
40:21
It's, I ride solo in that capacity, but the teams we're trying to, you know, always push
40:27
value or marketing is, is intense and, and we can really take the marketing piece off
40:33
of it.
40:34
If somebody doesn't have an admin, let's say, and they need stuff taken care of, you
40:37
know, your house flyers, co-grained the program stuff like that, like we are marketing,
40:42
uh, the top not much, so we have stuff for them to really help take that off of their
40:48
plate.
40:49
Hmm.
40:50
Couple last notes, yeah, that I see here.
40:52
One of them is you met yourself proclaim non-tech wizard, not a tech wizard, right?
40:59
Um, are you trying to, this is relevant to the question, uh, I hope, uh, I'm thinking
41:06
because you're, you're all in on realtors, is 100% referral from realtors, you know,
41:10
um, I'm wondering if you're evaluating other channels such as consumer direct, are you
41:14
looking at evolving your source of business, perhaps online coming up?
41:21
Yeah.
41:22
So I go back and forth with the end of the day, I wrote 240 loans last year and that
41:31
put me in the top of what we do for a, for a lot of, you know, in the, uh, ranking.
41:39
Yes.
41:40
That's not that many people overall.
41:42
And so, so by going out to the masses and is that, you know, we get so many, uh, opportunities
41:50
to speak to advertisers and thousands and thousands of dollars.
41:54
And at the end of the day, is that really worthwhile because targeting the consumer again,
41:59
at the end of the day, that consumer is probably being referred by their real estate agent when
42:05
they do go to go for, find home, that real estate agent is probably referring them to a lender
42:11
or their accountant or their family is referring them to a lender.
42:15
So are these, um, you know, these, these advertising opportunities that, like, they work while and
42:23
it's, it's a fine mix of going out to the masses.
42:26
Um, I think they're, the social media capacity is, uh, is a big piece and I think you have
42:32
to be out there enough to, so that people remember you and they know you and it's another touch.
42:38
Um, but is that something that I see myself going all in with or, or heavily focusing
42:44
on now at the end of the day, uh, I think that it's an important piece that shouldn't,
42:50
you can't forget about it, but, uh, you need to get face to face somehow.
42:55
You really need to get face to face on the more face to face or the more touches you can
43:00
get with somebody, uh, with, with realtors or for business connections, you know, great
43:05
referral sources, those walking billboards, um, you, you really need more of an interaction.
43:10
Yeah.
43:11
In terms of the referral relationships, I'm looking, I'm looking real quick here.
43:15
So, uh, I see, it looks like you've got, I'm just pulling it up right now, uh, a presence
43:19
on Zillow in terms of reviews, um, is that an active thing you try and get people to do?
43:25
Yeah.
43:26
We're trying to, more so, you know, that's something that I've been working on lately is really
43:30
trying to, to get more reviews on Zillow.
43:33
We, uh, we, uh, guarantee raise a company where it with the net promoter score, so we
43:39
kind of signed up so every consumer is taking a survey at the end of the day.
43:43
So, asking them to do additional surveys, I recognize it's sometimes painful, uh, because
43:48
it's, it's hard enough to get people to, you know, to get 50 or 40% of people to do the
43:54
net promoter scores hard enough.
43:56
So, Zillow reviews, I think are important.
43:58
You know, everyone's going to Zillow at some point, starting a home search, whether it's
44:03
their first or a part or just it's the first thing that comes up in a search when they
44:06
say a specific property, um, you know, consumers are going online to, at least, see a home
44:14
whether it's not in person, obviously, but it's a, at some point of a reference that they
44:20
can look at, see a price, see the room count, whatever, and then going in person to see
44:26
it.
44:27
So, it's important to, you know, be visible there with those reviews and that's something
44:31
that we're focusing on more this year.
44:34
So, any concerns then, you know, I'm sure you're tuned in somewhat to the whole talk
44:39
of disruption and, you know, Zillow, of course, bought a mortgage company and, you know,
44:44
if you're a betting person, right, you would bet that they're going to continue to grow
44:47
and expand that.
44:48
Of course, now they're buying homes directly from people and, you know, one can only kind
44:53
of foresee, right, what's coming for that down the road.
44:56
How much of that, it sounds, you know, is, is, is a concern for you, do you have any,
45:02
you know, plans on, I don't know, you know, trying to combat that in any way or you just
45:08
like so confident that the, you know, the referral base, you've got a real, realtor's,
45:12
eh, not too worried about it.
45:14
Yeah, it's, you have to be cognizant of it, of changes in the industry.
45:19
You have to be cognizant of your competition, what they're doing, and you can't stay static.
45:28
You have to keep, you have to keep changing, you have to keep evolving, you are a business
45:34
because the consumers are evolving to how they, you know, 10 years ago, people weren't
45:39
going to Zillow as their first run of defense or, or, or another on the market.
45:44
So, um, does the, am I concerned about Zillow acquiring a mortgage company or, you know,
45:51
at the end of the day, I get calls every single week to save deal.
45:57
Online line, there's, yeah, because it's the real estate is local.
46:03
It's not entirely true these days, but it is pretty darn important, still.
46:07
Uh, and if this process going to be fully automated, ever, I'm sure one day down the road,
46:15
um, there will be a way to fully automate this, but right now it is still in an era that
46:21
is far from an automated process.
46:23
And you really, you have to be involved in your pipeline.
46:26
You have to, you can't just let your pipeline go and pretend like everything's just going
46:31
to show up at the closing table.
46:32
You have to know what's going on on the clouds or else things can falsify very easily.
46:36
And that's the difference in a good consumer experience in a bad one.
46:40
Love it. Love it. Okay.
46:41
Last question.
46:41
Um, what are you still trying to do currently in your life or your business to make you
46:46
uncomfortable, uh, on a more consistent basis?
46:49
Cause that sounds like, so I think I'm 42 years old.
46:53
So I think I'm a little past the generation that can be completely out there on social media.
46:58
Um, by, you know, just ramping, ramping some further social media presence up, maybe a
47:06
video one of these days that I've been saying I'll do videos, um, but that, that'll eventually
47:11
come, um, that's, that's, that's a big thing.
47:15
I mean, I think I've got some good information to provide and just finding the right forum
47:19
I want to put it out there. Um, that's, that's the goal.
47:23
And then just trying new things, you know, trying, uh, again, more so about creating value for consumers,
47:31
and for my agents, you know, that's, that's more about what I'm, I'm looking for.
47:36
I don't want to just be not, not falsely selling, but, uh, just wrong random information
47:44
out there that is just internet junk, you know, I really want to find one more purpose
47:48
for that. Well, I mean, I think you could, right?
47:51
I mean, I'm just looking at your posts that you've got on your Facebook page and to your
47:54
point about video, like, for instance, the most recent one that happened to be coming up
47:59
for acts I've scrolled down a bit on your page.
48:00
So one of them is, um, if you see too many for sale signs, that might not be the right
48:04
neighborhood for you. So what I'm kind of advising people is to take the stuff you'd be posting
48:08
like that and, you know, and, and, and I don't know how this getting posted for you,
48:12
but it doesn't matter because, um, what's it, and you know this, but so I'm preaching to
48:16
the listeners right now. You take those same things that maybe your company's posting for
48:19
you or whatever and you do your own take on that with a video, you know what I mean?
48:24
That's what's going to drive the engagement and the trust and so maybe that's a place for you
48:28
to start and I'm happy to check in. Check in on you on that and make sure you're getting
48:32
on your comfort zone. Uh, yeah, man, appreciate it. Okay, look at it. I know you got to go. Um, it is,
48:38
time to get back to business. I appreciate you making time here. If anybody wants to reach out
48:42
to you, how should they connect with you? Sure. Email me rob.wishnikwishtk at rakes.com.
48:51
Uh, perfect. I'll find out in box zero by the end of every day. I'll get back to it.
48:55
In box zero, man. So, so that's out of my comfort zone. I got to tell you that's a bit inspiring
48:59
for me. My wife has 15,000 unread emails on her phone and it makes me cringe. I know. I have a
49:08
junk Gmail account just for that. So anyway, man, appreciate you being here very much. It was great
49:12
session and as always, listeners, if you like this episode, please leave us a review and you
49:16
know where to do that. And we will see you on the next one. Thanks for listening to mortgage
49:22
marketing radio. One more truth in mortgage marketing. Get more free training and resources at
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mortgagemarketinginstitute.com.
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