Latest / Growth After Headcount / Building The 10x Accountant — Nick Knuppe (Neno) #007

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Building The 10x Accountant — Nick Knuppe (Neno) #007 · Growth After Headcount

• Haris: Nick, Nick: Nick. Haris: you looked at one of the oldest profession in business, accounting, and you said, okay, AI should do most of it. What does Nino do? Nano is an AI native financial services startup, so we are quite unique. Nick: You looked at one of the oldest profession in business, accounting, and you said, okay, AI should do most of it. What does Nano do? Nano is an AI native financial services startup. So we are quite unique in the way that if you compare us to traditional firms or point solution fintech, so we're we merge our own fintech, so customers have their own business bank accounts, expense cards, AR, AP. Haris: In the way that if you compare us to traditional firms or point solution fintech, so we're we merge our own fintech, so customers have their own business bank accounts, expense cards, AR, AP, Nick: But we are also the accounting company. So we have our own in-house accountants, tax fiscalists, and payroll administrators. And we also have our own general ledger. So the way that we look at the market that we attack, our thesis is Haris: but we are also the accounting company. So we have our own in house accountants, tax fiscalists and payroll administrators, and we also have our own general ledger. So the way that we look at the market that we attack, our thesis is Nick: called the broken middle. So in the middle you've got, you know, twenty-six million SMEs, and on the left hand side you've got the legacy accounting software, never really built for the entrepreneur. Their user interfaces were last updated in the early Haris: called the broken middle. So in the middle you've got you know 26 million SMEs and on the left hand side you've got the legacy accounting software never really built for the entrepreneur. Their user interfaces were last updated in the early 2000s. And then on the right hand side you've got you know across four markets that we really like and we'll expand it to roughly 220,000 accounting firms that are still running on the same system of record and a 50 year old business model that is largely determined Nick: two thousands. and then on the right hand side you've got, you know, across four markets that we really like and will expand into roughly two hundred and twenty thousand accounting firms that are still running on the same system of record and a fifty-year-old business model that is largely determined Haris: by Nick: by if you want to grow, you have to add human headcount. Haris: if you want to grow you have to add headcount. Nick: And we see that model very differently. Haris: And we see that model very differently. Okay. And you mentioned many things. And one point was like your software does so many things, like accounting, payroll, and Nick: Okay. And you mentioned many things and one point was like your software does so many things like counting, payroll and Haris: cards. Like how many different industries basically are consolidating? Like it sounds like five, six. Yeah. So I think we look at it where an entrepreneur, and this is someone that can be running a 10 employee business up to a hundred, our kind of sweet spot is Nick: Like how many different industries basically are consolidating? Like it sounds like five, six. Yeah. So I think we look at it where an entrepreneur, and this is someone that can be running a 10 employee business up to a hundred. our kind of sweet spot is Haris: that you are a founder their business, so you're still accountable for money in and money out. You may have a fractional financial controller or even a CFO. But you outsource your financial ad administration to an accounting firm. And they Nick: that you are a founder led business, so you're still accountable for money in and money out. You may have a fractional financial controller or even a CFO. but you outsource your financial administration to an accounting firm and then typically take on what we see today as doing the bare minimum and and keeping you compliant. Haris: typically take on what we see today as doing the bare minimum and keeping you compliant. Nick: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no. Like with my own accountants, the experience extremely manual. Haris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No like with my own accountants, the experience extremely manual. And my mother in Germany, she's also an accountant. And what I'm hearing from here, wow. She used to work at one accounting practice and they had one computer in the lobby that had internet access. They didn't let them all use internet. Luckily she's not there anymore. But yeah, and Nick: Germany she's also an accountant. And what I'm hearing from here, wow, she used to work at one accounting program and they had one computer in the lobby that had internet access. Didn't let them all use internet. Luckily she's not there anymore. But yeah, and Haris: I guess with those all traditional accountants they can handle a fixed number of clients as you mentioned. Yeah. And how does it compare with Nano like? So so we look at a an SME accounting firm benchmark of typically one accountant to thirty or thirty-five customers and we're building technology that enables us to achieve a one to one hundred and fifty ratio. And you could you know of course you could be sceptical and and think well how do you achieve Nick: I guess with those all traditional accountants they can handle a fixed number of of clients as you mentioned. Yeah. And how does it compare between A and that? So so we look at an SME accounting firm benchmark of typically one accountant to thirty or thirty-five customers and we're building technology that enables us to achieve a a one to one hundred and fifty ratio. And you could you know, of course you could be skeptical and and think, well how do you achieve That. But if we really how we approach this is we kind of extrapolate the jobs to be done across bookkeeping, accounting, tax, and payroll. And then we really dive into exactly where we see the high effort, low impact across the certain tasks that an accountant has to do. And then we're really building against how do we remove that where we can add, you know, for example, agents across bank feed reconciliation that can do auto categorization. And then Haris: That. But if you really how we approach this is we kind of extrapolate the jobs to be done across bookkeeping, accounting, tax, and payroll, and we really dive into exactly where we see the high effort, low impact across the certain tasks that an accountant has to do, and then we're really building against how do we remove that where we can add, you know, for example, agents across bank feed reconciliation that can do autocategorization and then. Nick: we look at pattern matching across the segments. Haris: Pattern matching across the segments Nick: That we serve. So I think what makes us unique as an accounting company is that we look at accountants really focusing on industry-specific customer portfolios. So when you work with Nano, you have an accountant that serves the portfolio of SaaS companies. So that they generally understand your business, but we enable data that's contextual so that your our accountants can continuously learn about their business. Where you know in traditional firms, what's quite common is that you have one accountant serving three four different industries, and their job, again, is just to Haris: that we serve. So I think what makes us unique as an accounting company is that we look at accountants really focusing on industry-specific customer portfolios. So when you work with Nano, you have an accountant that serves the portfolio of SaaS companies. So the fact that they generally understand your business, but we enable data that's contextual so that your our accountants can continuously learn about their business. Where you know in traditional firms, what's quite common is that you have one accountant serving three or four different industries. And their job again is just to Nick: make sure that your book Haris: make sure that your books Nick: Are closed, whenever that is, and that your VAT prep is done and submitted on time. And that's again like the the kind of changing the narrative of Haris: are closed, whenever that is, and that your VAT prep is done and submitted on time. And that's again like the the kind of changing the narrative of Nick: it's not that your accountant sucks, it's that we need to educate businesses that you should expect so much more from your external service partners. And that's the kind of value equation that that we're changing at Nano. Yeah, okay. Haris: It's not that your accountant sucks, it's that you need to educate businesses that you should expect so much more from your external service partners. And that's the kind of value equation that that we're changing at nano. Yeah, okay, that's interesting. Also reminds me of my former accountant, where we had to explain what is Stripe and how a Stripe invoice and the payment and how they tax and like it was like a co developing our taxes. Like it's not what they're paying you for in a way. So I think a skeptic might even say, Are you Nick: We had to explain what is Stripe and how Stripe was and the payment and all the attacks and like it was like a core developing our taxes, like it's not what they're paying you in a way. So I think a skeptic might even say, Are you Haris: an AI company or just like an accounting firm with with software that's some part in humans. Like where does the AI come in here? I think the what I tell our engineers every day and the rest of the company is that we are building in such a radically different world from five years ago. I think there are many companies you would know of them that have tried this and failed because technology just simply couldn't avail what you needed it to do. And I think our biggest opportunity today is is Nick: an AI company or just like an accounting theorem with software that's some part in humans? Like AI come in? I think the what I tell our engineers every day and the rest of the company is that we are building in such a radically different world from five years ago. I think there are many companies you would know of them that have tried this and failed because technology just simply couldn't avail what you needed it to do. And I think our biggest opportunity today is is Haris: generally being AI native and and what we think and how we operate is that everyone on the team has a terminal, everyone on the team uses cloud. We always think ahead of hiring, how much can we automate? It's like is this is this person Nick: generally being AI native. And then what we think and how we operate is that everyone on the team has a terminal. Everyone on the team uses Claude. We always think ahead of hiring how much can we automate? It's like is this is this person So important that AI cannot do their job. Haris: so important that AI cannot do their job? Nick: And it's a strong challenge amongst teams motivating for headcount, but it's also a way that we can change behavior and thinking what are the possibilities. And that's particularly when we think Haris: That's sort of strong challenge amongst teams and motivating for headcount, but it's also a way that we can change behavior and thinking what are the possibilities. and that's particularly when we think building building an air net of you know accounting firm, a lot of them are trying to recalibrate backwards. And I think you will see this genuine curiosity in what can we do with automating Nick: building building an AI net of you know accounting firm, a lot of them are trying to recalibrate backwards. And I think you will see this genuine curiosity in what can we do with automating reconciliation on AR and AP Haris: Reconciliation on AR and AP. Nick: and then dropping data into Claude and running that, but ultimately you still need a a human to check it. And I think what's interesting is we see our own customers doing bank statements dropped into Claude and then coming back to us and vetting the work that we're doing against it. Which is amazing. But ultimately they also pay us because we're the professionals and and that's what they pay us to do. So I think it's really interesting what we're seeing across the board around what our customers are thinking but also where that Haris: And then dropping data into Claude and running that, but ultimately you still need a human to check it. And I think what's interesting is we see our own customers doing bank statements dropped into Claude and then coming back to us and vetting the work that we're doing against Claude. Okay. Which is amazing, but ultimately they also pay us because we're the professionals and that's what they pay us to do. So I think it's really interesting what we're seeing across the board around what our customers are thinking, but also where that Nick: Threshold is around trusting AI to do the job on their behalf versus you know paying a service provider to do it. Yeah, interesting. And yeah, trust is a big element in improving it. Like do you have some form of feedback loops that like when the AI does something a human validates it improves learning? Absolutely. you know for us I think that our world is never around replacing accountants. I think it's to amplify the work and what that means is that they shouldn't be doing the 80% grunt work. a lot of what we Haris: threshold is around trusting AI. To do the job on their behalf versus paying a service provider to do it. Yeah, interesting. And yeah, trust is a big element in improving it. Like, do you have some form of feedback loops that like when the AI does something a human validate that it keeps learning? Absolutely. For us, I think that our world is never around replacing accountants. I think it's to amplify the work. And what that means is that they shouldn't be doing the 80% crunch work. A lot of what we Nick: see in the way that we're approaching even just building our onboarding. Haris: see in the way that we're approaching, even just building our own. Mm-hmm. Nick: You know, three months ago we had eight touches before someone was in platform, and now we've have three. And what we've done is making sure that all the document collections, the comms between handover from sales to to an accountant is completely productized, all the way through to a UBO being submitted to someone arriving in their nano vault and seeing all the documents readily available. And I think that it's making sure that we're leveraging that we are a technology company through and through. Haris: Three months ago we had eight touches before someone was in platform, and now we've have three. And what we've done is making sure that all the document collections, the comms between handover from sales to an accountant is completely productized, all the way through to a Ubo being submitted to someone arriving in their nano vault and seeing all their documents readily available. And I think that it's making sure that we're leveraging that we are a technology company through and through. Nick: We're a tech enabled services firm. and and I think the Haris: we're a tech-enabled services firm. and and I think the Nick: the beauty that we have is that we have accountants sitting next to engineers. So when you talk about you know feedback velocity, it's not hours, it's minutes is an extend your arm to the accountant and say, Hey, I've just released this. Can you test if it's working? And I think that's just you know when we think about how we build and the velocity that we move at, like that's what makes me believe we're gonna win. No, it's not something exciting. And I think especially with account Haris: beauty that we have is that we have accountant sitting next to engineers. So when you talk about you know feedback velocity, i it's not hours, it's minutes as an extend your arm to the accountant and say, Hey, I've just released this, can you test if it's working? And I think that's just you know when we think about how we build and the the velocity that we move at, that's what makes me believe we're gonna win. Nice. No, it's not exciting and I think especially with accounting Nick: Like every country has their own tax code. Like, Haris: like every country has their own tax code like Like do you plan to expand to other Yeah this is really interesting. I think when we look at the tailwinds that we're riding Nick: do you plan to expand to other Yeah, this is really interesting. I think when we look at the tailwinds that we're riding, if you asked me this four years ago, I'd probably be called delusional. But when you think about, you know, particularly in Europe, so let's use a few examples: the e-invoicing mandate, Italy one of the first to pioneer it. This is changing what is typically very manual Haris: If you asked me this four years ago, I'd probably be called delusional. but when you think about, you know, particularly in Europe, so let's use a few examples, the e-invoicing mandate, Italy one of the first to pioneer it. This is changing what is typically very manual and Nick: And paper driven or fragmented across email to platform to accounting software, that's moving into XML, which actually is works in favor of the way that we're digitizing that process. The same as for Haris: paper driven or fragmented across email to platform to accounting software, that's moving into XML. which actually is it works in favor of the way that we're digitizing that process. The same as for Tax bodies becoming more and more digitized. You know, they're more API led. I the lasting distance is probably one of the most progressive. So all of these components of trying to build what we're building has become more and more operational and integrated from connectivity first. Nick: tax bodies becoming more and more digitized. You know, they're more API led. I think the Belastingdienst dungeon is probably one of the most progressive. So all of these components of trying to build what we're building has become more and more operational and integrated from connectivity first. Haris: And I think tax you know policy is largely deterministic. You know, now it's a matter of training tax policy against our schema and making sure that we always have, you know, when we expand into a new market, the first two people we Nick: And I think tax you know policy is largely deterministic. You know, now it's a matter of training tax policy against our schema and making sure that we always have, you know, when we expand into a new market, the first two people we hire is a tax fiscalist and an accountant. that's a non-negotiable. you have to have those resources in-house to make sure that we're moving and localizing as fast as we can. But it also comes with the way that we think about our tech partners. You know, so launching in Italy, we would look for someone like Jet HR. Haris: We hire is a tax fiscalist and an accountant. That's a non-negotiable. You have to have those resources in-house to make sure that we're moving and localizing as fast as we can. But it also comes with the way that we think about our tech partners. So launching in Italy, we would look for someone like JetHR. Nick: You know, the payroll is a is a monster in Europe. and I think that you've you've seen the progression of the likes of Remote and Deal and they've and they've done a great job, but particularly in the SME segment, I think there's a bunch of early early stage or developing startups that have Haris: Payroll is a monster in Europe. And I think that you've you've seen the progression of the likes of Remote and Deal and they've done a great job, but particularly in the SME segment, I think there's a bunch of early stage or developing startups that have Done really well and there's always a question on what do you build versus who do you partner with. I think payroll is a is a good example of that. how do you see then the role of traditional accounting fiam? Nick: done it really well, and there's always a question on what do you build versus who do you partner with. And I think payroll is a is a good example of that. role of traditional accounting? Haris: Can they transform like what you are doing now as AI native? Nick: Can they transform like what you are doing now as AI native? I think the saying goes innovate or die. and you know going back to the way that we look at you know our total addressable market, it's displacing the legacy accounting software, but also the legacy accounting firms. I think the the build versus buy you know PE roll-ups is very common. I think it they've also established a model that works. I think there's exciting things happening in Haris: Are you gonna acquire them? The saying goes innovate or die. and you know, going back to the way that we look at you know our total addressable market, it's displacing the legacy accounting software, but also the legacy accounting firms. I think the the bulb versus buy you know P roll-ups is very common. I think that they've also established a model that works. I think there's exciting things happening in Nick: Poland in that space. Haris: Poland in that space. For us, if we look at the way that we've approached Nick: For us, if you look at the way that we've approached go-to-market, Haris: to market, direct to business, that's working. you know I think there's always a question for me in the way that you kind of preserve a startup's culture, if you're acquiring a business for their book of business, you're also probably going to be acquiring 12 or 15 accountants. The question is do they have the same mindset and ambition that they're going to be running a portfolio of not 35 customers per accountant but 100? And then the question Nick: direct to business, that's working. you know, I think there's always a question for me in the way that you kind of preserve a startup's culture, if you're acquiring a business for their book of business, you're also probably going to be acquiring twelve or fifteen accountants. And the question is, are do they have the same mindset and ambition that they're going to be running a portfolio of not 35 customers per accountant, but a hundred? And then the question is question is what do you do with them? Haris: is what do you do with them? Nick: and the answer to that is well you either fire them or you pay them out, which comes with another you know cost of acquiring, which is not something that I see us doing anytime soon. Yeah okay no it makes sense right so so in that regard though new Haris: to is well you either fire them or you pay them out which comes with another you know cost of acquiring which is n not something that I see us doing anytime soon. Yeah, okay no it it makes sense, right? So so in that regard though new businesses or like companies will try to work you, they need to trust you. How can you establish a trust as a very young company in a very traditional space? So there's a few things that we do and I think Nick: businesses or like companies to try to work you they need to trust you. How can you establish a trust as a very young company in a very traditional space? So there's a few things that we do. And I think if you deliver a superior product with a superior service at a competitive price, Haris: If you deliver a superior product with a superior service at a competitive price Nick: trust comes. And I think that I mean we're still onboarding a customer per day as a services company that's you know commercially seven months old. Haris: Trust comes. I think that I mean we're still onboarding a customer per day as a services company that's you know commercially seven months old. So you the question is okay, well how big is the pain threshold that people are just wanting to move, regardless of trust. But it also comes in the way that we engage, I think we do huge investments into community. Yeah. That's building, you know, repetition builds Nick: So y the question is, okay, well how big is the pain threshold that people are just wanting to move, regardless of trust. But it also comes in the way that we engage. I think we do huge investment into community. And that's building, you know, repetition builds Credibility and credibility builds trust. And I think that you need to factor that into the way that you think about your brand, what you stand for. you know, we've surpassed a hundred and fifty customers and more than sixty percent of new business comes from referrals. So you have to index that and kind of believe you're doing a good job and you need to be consistent in doing a good job. you know, you can't fuck that up. And Haris: Credibility and credibility builds trust. And I think that you need to factor that into the way that you think about your brand, what you stand for. you know, we've surpassed a hundred and fifty customers and more than sixty percent of new business comes from referrals. So you have to index that and kind of believe you're doing a good job and you need to be consistent in doing a good job. you know, you can't fuck that up. And Nick: one bad reconciliation, one late tax filing which is which happens, you know, that's not what we're about. Haris: one bad reconciliation, one late tax filing which is which happens, you know, that's not what we're about. And I think Nick: I think that we guard that in the way that we think of the accounting profession and tax very carefully because we want to be that category winner where the Haris: that we guard that in the way that we think of the accounting profession and tax very carefully, because we want to be that category winner where the Nick: growth and nano amortizers, but also the way that we build and commercially achieve our targets comes from people referring. And we see it very common and Revolute. I think they're now offering 800 euros per referral. We're taking the very same approach where we offer customers, depending on the size of business. Haris: growth the nano amortizers but also the way that we build and commercially achieve our targets comes from people referring. I know we see it very common and in Revolute I think they're now offering eight hundred euros per referral. we're taking the very same approach where we offer customers, depending on the size of business Nick: They refer us, they get paid immediately directly into their nano account. Someone last week earned eight thousand euros just from referring businesses to us. Haris: they refer us, they get paid immediately directly into the nano nano account. Someone last week earned eight thousand euros just from referring businesses to us. Nick: so then you ask, okay, well how big is this problem really? Haris: So then you ask, okay, well how big is this problem really? Yeah. but I think it's also there's a few things that you have to factor into how do you build trust, and there's multiple w layers that that come with that. Nick: But I think it's also there's a few things that you have to factor into how do you build trust. and there's multiple wo layers that that come with that. I think for us it it really comes down to brand and consistent delivery and superior service. Yeah. I think before the recording we also talked about distribution and now the technology also becomes a bit a commodity we can build and ship much faster. And let's say there are other AI native founders. Haris: for us it it really comes down to brand and consistent delivery and superior service. Yeah. I think before the recording we also talked about distribution and now that technology also becomes a bitter commodity we can build and ship much faster. And let's say there are other AI native founders Nick: Out there and how important is distribution brand, personal brand for them? I think the fact that Haris: out there and how important is distribution, brand, personal brand for them? I think the fact that Nick: I'm sitting on this podcast thinking about launching our own podcast is incredibly important. When so I see accounting software fees going to zero. Haris: sitting on this podcast thinking about launching our own podcast is incredibly important. When so I see accounting software fees going to zero. you know looking at the capabilities of what we see solopreneurs doing and closing their books with you know an integration from for example zero into into Claude what really matters is is how do you become memorable, how do you come Nick: You know, looking at the capabilities of what we see solo premiers doing and closing their books with you know an integration from, for example, Zero into Claude. what really matters is is how do you become memorable, how do you come across Haris: as different and how do you come across as excellent? And that needs to be transcended into the way that you educate customers on who you are, what you stand for, why you're different. The same way that you build mechanisms inside your product to delight them. if you're not creating multiple aha moments, Nick: as different, and how do you come across as excellent. And that needs to be transcended into the way that you educate customers on who you are, what you stand for, why you're different. The same way that you build mechanisms inside your product to delight them. if you're not creating multiple. multiple aha moments, you're no different from anyone else. so it's a blend of the way that you show up in a market, the way that you onboard customers, like every customer that onboards with Nano, we have a you know a human-to-human meeting. Like it's very personal and I think that that's probably something that's missing is that you onboard and then you get sent to an accountant and then you hear from them three months later with an invoice and more questions and answers. Haris: you're no different from anyone else. so it's a blend of the way that you show up in the market, the way that you onboard customers, like every customer that onboards at Nano, we have a you know a human to human meeting. Like it's very personal. And I think that that's probably something that's missing is that you onboard and then you get sent to an accountant and you hear from them three months later with an invoice and more questions and answers. Nick: And that's fundamentally what's wrong with the with the current model and relationship that, you know, maybe it's a little bit different than legal. Haris: And that's fundamentally what's wrong with the with the current model and relationship that, you know, maybe it's a little bit different than legal. Nick: but that's what we want to change. Yeah, okay. It's intersting it relates to Amos who we just interviewed for an episode and he also mentioned software is the commodity, but we are domain experts in our bubble. We are selling you our expertise that comes coincidentally with the software and for you I think for accounting this is probably even more applicable than for most other industries. Haris: That's what we want change. Yeah, okay. It's interesting, it relates to Amos, who we also interviewed for an episode, and he also mentioned software is the commodity, but we are domain experts in our bubble. We are selling you our expertise that comes coincidentally with the software. And for you, I think for accounting, this is probably even more applicable than for most other industries as well. Yeah. And Nick: Well yeah. And accounting is some very traditional field and AI native makes sense. Are there any other industries where you think like that your playbook can also work well? Haris: Accounting is some very traditional theum and AI native makes sense. Are there any other industries where you think like that your playbook can also work well? Well I think anything in the advisory space. So if you look at the work that HR companies are doing on the HR advisory side, like they're definitely thinking about how can they Nick: Well, I think anything in the advisory space. So if you look at the work that HR companies are doing on the HR advisory side, like they're definitely thinking around how can they productize their offering and obviously that's also something that sits adjacent to the type of HRI software tools that are available. But I think in general, most agency practitioners that have built a company on billable hours are now thinking around how can they Haris: they're offering and obviously that's also something that sits adjacent to the type of HRI software tools that are available. But I think in general most agency practitioners that have built a company on billable hours are now thinking around how can they Nick: take that business model and change it into something that is essentially a done for you. Haris: Take that business model and change it into something that is essentially a done-for-you state of work or outcome-based. And I think for us, when we think about outcome-based and financial services, you know, the done-for-you state of work is the kind of the ultimate goal. You know, we want people to be logging into nano and looking at the entire financial administration managed according to the guardrails that they set. So what I mean by that is that so today, and like even just legacy accounting tools, they may send one email reminder for Nick: state of work or outcome based. And I think for us, when we think about outcome based in financial services, you know, the the done for you state of work is the kind of the ultimate goal. You know, we want people to be logging into Nano and looking at the entire financial administration managed according to the guardrails that they set. So what I mean by that is that so today in like even just legacy accounting tools, they may send one email reminder for, you know, an outstanding receivable. But you don't necessarily get a daily feed or a report saying Haris: you know, an outstanding receivable. Yeah. But you don't necessarily get a daily feed or report saying, hey, Nick: Hey, we followed up to the of these three, you know, customers. If this money does not hit your account, this is gonna impact your cash flow. would you like me to call them on your behalf? Haris: we followed up to the if these three, you know, customers. If this money does not hit your account, this is gonna impact your cash flow. would you like me to call them on your behalf? Nick: And then digitize that so that you can, you know, create a connection between Twilio, call them with eleven labs, and then make a phone call on the customer's behalf and give them a reason why that invoice hasn't been paid, or actually going a step further and sending that invoice to a debtor's collection agency. And for us, like that's the optimal state where we're absolutely removing that friction that comes with trying to run a business and keeping your sanity around the financial health. Where we know so many times customers are still running, you know, a 20-person HR agency with with X Haris: And then digitize that so that you can, you know, create a connection between Twilio, call them with eleven labs, and then make a phone call on the customer's behalf and and give them a reason why that invoice hasn't been paid. We're actually going a step further and sending that invoice to a data collection agency. And for us, like that's the optimal state where we're absolutely removing that friction that comes with trying to run a business and keeping your sanity around the financial health. So many times customers are still running, you know, a twenty person HR agency with with Nick: Excel. Haris: Excel. Yeah. Which is insane. And it's not Excel, like multiple Excel sheets. yeah. No, that's Nick: Which is insane. And it's not Excel, it's like multiple Excel sheets. Haris: very exciting what you mentioned. Again, coming back to my mom and her accounting practice, like she has to spend so much time sending emails, chasing people to get documents. And if that can automate, it's like super powerful use case. And to slowly come to an end. Nick: Very exciting what you mentioned. Again, coming back to my mom and her accounting practice, like she has to spend so much time sending emails, chasing people to get documents. Yeah. That can automate, that's a super powerful use case. And to slowly come to an end. you mentioned earlier, hey, we all we gotta really closely look when we hire somebody what AI can do. In that Haris: regard you're maximizing the efficiency to having do you have a goal like revenue per head count what you're aiming for? So we we have so we don't have OKRs, we call them non-negotiable metrics. Yeah. Nick: regard, you're maximizing the efficiency term. Do you have a goal like revenue per A headcount, what you're aiming for? Yeah. So we we have so we don't have OKRs, we call them non negotiable metrics. There's no reason why we should not hit this. Like this is the absolute. This has to happen by this date. There are no excuses for not hitting it. And then we re-engineer backwards. What do we need to do? And so the first one is as a VC backed company and a company growing to profitability, it's growth and error. If we're not growing incrementally, we're not proving that there is a huge problem to solve. We're Haris: There's no reason why we should not hit this. Like this is the absolute, this has to happen by this date. There are no excuses for not hitting it. And then we re-engineer backwards. What do we need to do? And so the first one is is a VC backed company and company growing to profitability, it's growth and error. If we're not growing incrementally, we're not proving that there is a huge problem to solve. Nick: winning when we look at non negotiable metrics, we have four. the first one is are you growing an error? This is the absolute number that we have to grow incrementally, so quarter on quarter, two, three hundred percent by the end of this year to prove that this is a big problem. This is a big problem that we can solve and will solve. The second is launching the agentic general ledger. So this is a fundamental piece of infra that differential. Haris: When we look at non-negotiable metrics, we have four. The first one is are you growing an error? This is the absolute number that we have to grow incrementally, so quarter on quarter, two 300% by the end of this year to prove that this is a big problem. This is a big problem that we cancel. solve and we'll solve. The second is launching the AgenTech General Edge R. So this is a fundamental piece of infra that differentiates Nick: Differentiates us both on the way that we are positioned against incumbents but also how we build our adjacent fintech around that. So if you think of banking, spend management, ARAP. And then three and four is average revenue per accountant and average amount of customers per account. Haris: us both on the way that we are positioned against incumbents but also how we build our adjacent fintech around it. So if you think of banking, spend management, ARAP. And then three and four is average revenue per accountant and average amount of customers per accountant. Nick: So right now we're at about average revenue per accountant. So we look at cost of seat and multiplying that at a at a 3.3x minimum. So from, for example, let's say baseline 65,000 euros, that needs to be circa 180,000 euros. Haris: So right now we're at about average revenue per content. So we look at cost of seat and multiplying that at a at a three point through x three x member. So from, for example, let's say baseline 65,000 euros, that needs to be circa 180,000 euros. That means that we're building a business that can operate at the kind of SARS unit economics of GM, you know, 90%. Yeah. and then the the third one is average average amount of customers per content. And that means that you know we need to prove that from a one to forty ratio. Nick: That means that we're building a business that can operate at the kind of SARS unit economics of GM, you know, 90%. and then the the third one is average average amount of customers per content. And that means that, you know, we need to prove that from a one to forty ratio Haris: by the end of this year we're trending at 1 to 65 and the end of the next year 1 to 100. Nick: by the end of this year we're trending at one to sixty-five, and the end of the net next year one to one hundred. Haris: No. If we don't solve all four of these, our thesis is not true. Yeah. And that's why we call them like non negotiable metrics. Yeah, okay, no, that's super Nick: If we don't solve all four of these, our thesis is not true. Yeah. and that's why we call them like non-negotiable metrics. Okay, no, that's the exciting and yeah that's gonna be the companies of the future so small teams making a lot of revenue. Yeah but I think it's yeah there's something beautiful about being a lean team and and tr and solving what we're setting out to solve. But at that same time I think Haris: exciting. And yeah. That's gonna be the companies of the future. So small teams making a lot of revenue. Yeah. But I think it's yeah, there's something beautiful about being a lean team. and and tr and solving what we're setting out to solve. But at that same time, I think Nick: The conviction that we get is the way that we're learning from our customers. You know, our customers buy into what we're building, the fact that they deserve better service, they should have more accurate reporting, they should be able to access the accountant on Slack with a response within twenty-four four hours. And even those three things vastly, you know, differ from from what legacy accounting firms can do. Haris: The conviction that we get is the way that we're learning from our customers. Our customers buy into what we're building, the fact that they deserve better service, they should have more accurate reporting, they should be able to access the accountant on Slack with a response within twenty four four hours. And even those three things vastly differ from from what legacy and accounting firms do. So much. Amazing. Nick, thank you for taking the time. Super interesting conversation. And yeah, maybe see you again in a year's time and we're gonna get an update on where you are. Absolutely. Looking forward to it. Amazing. Thank you. Thanks. Nick: Amazing. Nick, thank you for taking the time. Super interesting conversation. And yeah, maybe see you again in a year's time and we're gonna get an update on where you are. Absolutely. Looking forward to it. Amazing. Thank