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Held by Men, Forged by the Fire (with Ted Riter) · Evolutionary Men

• 0:00
  All right, and welcome back, everyone.
• 0:03
  I am super pumped to have another interview today, this time with Ted Ryder, who is a spiritual guide, relationship coach.
• 0:10
  And relationship coach that helps men, women, and couples unmask their truth and deepen their connection to self, others, and the divine.
• 0:19
  He's a former rabbi with over 30 years of sacred leadership and now leads transformational experiences from his wisdom circle for men to intimacy intensives for couples and high-achieving women.
• 0:32
  And it's really cool.
• 0:33
  His work weaves ancient wisdom with modern embodiment and invites people into integrity, love, and a life that feels spiritually and relationally whole.
• 0:44
  And yeah, I'm super excited to be here with you today, Ted, because yeah, man, we've been sitting in a circle together for, I don know, almost seven or eight years now.
• 0:52
  And you've been a major landmark in my guide as a man.
• 0:57
  A mentor and just vision of what an integrated man can be.
• 1:02
  And there's something I particularly appreciate about you, which I think will
• 1:06
  Dive into here, and that you note a little bit.
• 1:08
  We noted a little bit in your intro, which is the sacredness you bring.
• 1:12
  You know, there's a lot of Instagrammable men's work these days, and there's a particular depth.
• 1:13
  You know, there's a lot of Instagrammable men's work these days, and there's a particular depth.
• 1:18
  And actually, spiritual component that I often get to experience through you and my relationship to you.
• 1:25
  So I am super excited to have you here today, man.
• 1:29
  Figure we can just dive in.
• 1:31
  Let's dive in.
• 1:32
  Now, 30 years.
• 1:34
  That's a long time.
• 1:37
  A really long time.
• 1:38
  I know I wrote that.
• 1:43
  Yeah.
• 1:44
  And you know, I'm more and more appreciative of it as time goes on.
• 1:48
  And you know, I'm more and more appreciative of it as time goes on.
• 1:49
  You know, when I stepped out of, and you knew me during this time, I was kind of stepping out of the full-time rabbi world.
• 1:56
  and into coaching world and into intimacy world, you know that I kind of pulled away from I didn't want the rabbi title.
• 2:06
  You know, who wants to talk intimacy with rabbi?
• 2:08
  I thought.
• 2:08
  Or who wants to do like good men's work with a rabbi?
• 2:09
  Or who wants to do like good men's work with a rabbi?
• 2:10
  Or who wants to do like good men's work with a rabbi?
• 2:13
  That was my own kind of stuff that I was carrying along.
• 2:18
  And then over the last number of years, just really appreciate it even more.
• 2:22
  And I think especially as I see so many of our colleagues who are trying to find their roots.
• 2:30
  They're trying to find their Celtic roots or whatever it might be to find some kind of grounding.
• 2:37
  And some are really making beautiful connections, but I recognize that they're having to leap over a number of generations prior to find the depth they're looking for.
• 2:53
  There's something around seeing them doing that and then recognizing, oh, it's here.
• 2:59
  It was handed to me by my parents, not by some far back ancestors.
• 3:07
  And I just feel lucky.
• 3:08
  I feel really lucky that.
• 3:11
  That my exploration hasn't had to go those routes.
• 3:16
  Even though it certainly deepened, it hasn't had to jump over generations.
• 3:22
  Yeah, and I'm curious, maybe you can speak to that a little bit in terms of your personal journey.
• 3:29
  What got you into men's work specifically?
• 3:31
  Because it's not the most obvious jump.
• 3:34
  Right, from your tradition, and you know, maybe it's changing, but from what I know, it's not like everyone's lining up to do this kind of embodiment in men's work and spiritual intimacy that you do.
• 3:44
  Like, did you get into men's work?
• 3:48
  Kind of by accident, really.
• 3:52
  I've had a spiritual director, the same spiritual director, for about 18 years now, something like that, maybe a little more.
• 4:01
  And we meet on a regular basis.
• 4:03
  And he's started men's groups.
• 4:06
  He's written a book about men's groups.
• 4:08
  He's done all kinds of things around men's groups.
• 4:10
  And I was with him for a good eight years before I even wanted to talk about it.
• 4:16
  I mean, even though I had, I mean, he was right there supporting me in so many ways.
• 4:18
  I mean, even though I had, I mean, he was right there supporting me in so many ways.
• 4:19
  I mean, even though I had, I mean, he was right there supporting me in so many ways.
• 4:21
  It was not until really I I collapsed my life that I knew in twenty thirteen.
• 4:29
  And started digging out of that that I realized I needed something else.
• 4:35
  And the woman I was dating actually brought me to a John Wineland event.
• 4:40
  To a co-editor.
• 4:42
  And he was doing it with Kendra at the time in Berkeley.
• 4:46
  And I went there and I thought this is ridiculous.
• 4:52
  But I stayed because I was there at the
• 4:53
  I was dating, who knew him personally.
• 4:56
  And then a month or so later, I went back to him.
• 5:01
  I said, okay, I think you've got something that I need.
• 5:04
  I need to learn more about masculine, feminine, all these different dynamics that he was talking about.
• 5:05
  I need to learn more about masculine, feminine, all these different dynamics that he was talking about.
• 5:06
  I need to learn more about masculine, feminine, all these different dynamics that he was talking about.
• 5:10
  This seemed so foreign to me.
• 5:12
  This seemed so foreign to me.
• 5:13
  And so that's when started hopping on those calls for that proto-EMLT, right?
• 5:21
  The Embodiments Leadership Training that we did together in 2018, right?
• 5:29
  The Embodiments Leadership Training that we did together in 2018, right?
• 5:29
  I started my first year.
• 5:30
  I started my first year.
• 5:31
  So this is 2016, into 2016.
• 5:34
  That was reviewing the calls, and then the program started in 2017.
• 5:35
  That was reviewing the calls, and then the program started in 2017.
• 5:39
  And I realized really quickly: one was that I didn't trust men.
• 5:48
  I had this view of you know the real men were kind of just the evolution of that jerk from sixth grade locker room
• 5:57
  Right, and I didn't want to be him, right?
• 5:59
  So I pushed away from that, and it was then that I realized, oh, I
• 6:05
  I didn't trust men.
• 6:07
  I was fearful of men.
• 6:09
  And that was kind of the cauldron I needed to be in to really stretch that part of me.
• 6:15
  And I'm pretty convinced by this point that if I had been in men's groups, so if I had asked my spiritual director 18 years ago, like, hey man, like, can you can you tell me more about this?
• 6:30
  That my first marriage would have ended much differently than it did.
• 6:34
  Wouldn't have been so messy.
• 6:35
  Maybe it wouldn have ended.
• 6:37
  But it certainly wouldn't have been as messy as it was.
• 6:41
  I needed men.
• 6:41
  I just didn't know it.
• 6:43
  I needed men who would who would challenge me lovingly.
• 6:48
  Not just the jerk kind, but challenge me from this place of, hey, I love you and I want more for you and this is what I see for you and
• 6:55
  And you'll kind of shake me.
• 6:57
  So that's what that's what got me started.
• 6:58
  So that's what that's what got me started.
• 6:58
  So that's what that's what got me started.
• 7:01
  And so started with John, worked privately.
• 7:07
  With a coach, Zot Baraka, who was, you know, both both the EMLT and working with Zot privately was really a lifesaver for me and so made.
• 7:20
  With a coach, Zot Baraka, who was, you know, both both the EMLT and working with Zot privately was really a lifesaver for me and so made.
• 7:21
  And it really helped me redevelop who I wanted to be in the world.
• 7:24
  And it really helped me redevelop who I wanted to be in the world.
• 7:27
  Such an amazing story.
• 7:28
  And yeah, that
• 7:31
  I heard this Terry Real term, Hubby calls it, carefrontation.
• 7:34
  One of the great gifts in men's work is right when we confront with care, like of care, we're confronting, and I think that's a real
• 7:43
  Oaten thing in men's work and men's groups, and something I've been delighted to have received from you.
• 7:48
  Oaten thing in men's work and men's groups, and something I've been delighted to have received from you.
• 7:48
  Just loving things you'll sometimes
• 7:49
  Just loving things you'll sometimes
• 7:50
  you know, just hold your finger on the button for a little bit until it's like clarity emerges with these kind of loving carefrontations sometimes.
• 7:59
  And it's been such a
• 8:01
  Gifted me in my life and often just made me think about things at a deeper level and slowed me down.
• 8:05
  You, I think that's another thing I appreciate about sometimes my interactions with you.
• 8:09
  Just like, tell me more about this.
• 8:11
  And it's like,
• 8:12
  Yeah, really forces me to get clearer on where I'm at, which obviously that's such a masculine gift, clarity.
• 8:22
  Isn it?
• 8:23
  Isn it?
• 8:23
  When we get clear in that regard, the other big thing.
• 8:24
  When we get clear in that regard, the other big thing.
• 8:24
  When we get clear in that regard, the other big thing.
• 8:27
  Was our friend Robert Glover.
• 8:29
  Yep.
• 8:31
  I was told in 2017, go read this book.
• 8:35
  And I started reading No More Mr.
• 8:36
  Nice Guy.
• 8:37
  I started yelling at the book.
• 8:41
  Like, how dare you for knowing me so well?
• 8:44
  And I realized that so much of it.
• 8:44
  And I realized that so much of it.
• 8:47
  Was my language or language I needed.
• 8:51
  And I called him up.
• 8:52
  And I called him up.
• 8:52
  I, hey, I want to come study with you.
• 8:55
  And so, yeah, started that relationship.
• 8:57
  And so, yeah, started that relationship.
• 8:57
  And so, yeah, started that relationship.
• 8:59
  back in 2017 also.
• 9:02
  And recognizing that I wasn't the only one.
• 9:02
  And recognizing that I wasn't the only one.
• 9:04
  And recognizing that I wasn't the only one.
• 9:06
  And recognizing that I wasn't the only one.
• 9:07
  I guess that was a big thing.
• 9:09
  It wasn't just that I needed men, but I realized that I wasn't the only one who needed men.
• 9:13
  I wasn the only one who had all these fears of being in men's groups or being around
• 9:19
  Other men, or distrust, or a lot of the nice guy stuff of holding these things back because if you really knew me.
• 9:28
  Right, you wouldn't love me.
• 9:31
  Yeah, totally.
• 9:31
  Yeah, totally.
• 9:32
  So it's
• 9:33
  Yeah, I'm curious for you.
• 9:36
  Yeah, I'm curious for you.
• 9:38
  What comes to mind, you know, you spoke about your previous marriage, and now you're in another relationship.
• 9:44
  And one was kind of before men and men's community in your life, and one is now.
• 9:50
  You've had men in men community.
• 9:51
  And what way have you seen that change impact your intimate relationship?
• 9:56
  Like, is it something you put a lot of time and attention to supporting men and couples around?
• 10:01
  But how would you link that, you now being plugged into men, to the quality of your intimate relationship with your partner?
• 10:13
  I started dating Leslie around the time I started working with John.
• 10:17
  Yeah.
• 10:19
  Do you know my feminine cleanse story?
• 10:23
  I'm not sure I do.
• 10:24
  John told me to do a feminine cleanse because I was dating a couple women just very casually date here or there.
• 10:30
  And so there were three of them.
• 10:30
  And so there were three of them.
• 10:30
  And so there were three of them.
• 10:31
  And I said, hey, I'm going do this crazy thing called a cleanse.
• 10:36
  And I may not see you again.
• 10:37
  And I may not see you again.
• 10:38
  I'm going to say goodbye to all the women in my life, other than like my sister or my mother, or who are more transactional in different ways.
• 10:44
  I'm going to say goodbye to all the women in my life, other than like my sister or my mother, or who are more transactional in different ways.
• 10:45
  I'm going to say goodbye to all the women in my life, other than like my sister or my mother, or who are more transactional in different ways.
• 10:46
  But I'm going to really cut off all kinds
• 10:50
  Energy like that.
• 10:53
  And two women were heartbroken.
• 10:56
  And
• 10:58
  And Elomad.
• 11:00
  And one woman said, Wait, but you're studying with this guy named John Wineland.
• 11:04
  I thought he's supposed to be an intimate, like a relationship coach.
• 11:08
  Aren't you going to need a practice partner?
• 11:10
  So that's my wife.
• 11:12
  Yeah, great.
• 11:15
  So, but I say that because I think it's so important.
• 11:18
  We started our relationship as practice.
• 11:21
  Yeah.
• 11:22
  And I think that's what
• 11:26
  What doing this men's work taught me that we commit, we often fail, we recommit.
• 11:36
  right that we we deepen and ground root ourselves so that we can hold our own feminine and we can hold their feminine.
• 11:44
  right that we we deepen and ground root ourselves so that we can hold our own feminine and we can hold their feminine.
• 11:44
  right that we we deepen and ground root ourselves so that we can hold our own feminine and we can hold their feminine.
• 11:47
  We learn to dance with those with those
• 11:51
  Energies and having a place where I could experience that with my
• 11:53
  Energies and having a place where I could experience that with my
• 11:54
  Energies and having a place where I could experience that with my
• 12:02
  Leslie, who ended up being my wife, was super important.
• 12:06
  But the connection back to the men's work was that that's where I got a lot of the tools.
• 12:11
  That's where I got a lot of the tools that broke down those cultural or family, whatever lessons that I had learned along the way about how we were all exactly alike.
• 12:11
  That's where I got a lot of the tools that broke down those cultural or family, whatever lessons that I had learned along the way about how we were all exactly alike.
• 12:23
  That's where I got a lot of the tools that broke down those cultural or family, whatever lessons that I had learned along the way about how we were all exactly alike.
• 12:25
  Men and women were, you know, mirror images of each other.
• 12:25
  Men and women were, you know, mirror images of each other.
• 12:26
  Men and women were, you know, mirror images of each other.
• 12:27
  Men and women were, you know, mirror images of each other.
• 12:27
  Men and women were, you know, mirror images of each other.
• 12:29
  It helped me start to understand just the beauty in differences and how to navigate those.
• 12:34
  I think also the men's group was the place that I really grieved.
• 12:38
  I think also the men's group was the place that I really grieved.
• 12:40
  And I really grieved how I had shown up for the first 40 plus years of my life.
• 12:40
  And I really grieved how I had shown up for the first 40 plus years of my life.
• 12:41
  And I really grieved how I had shown up for the first 40 plus years of my life.
• 12:51
  And work through a lot of the shame, both the sexual shame that I had growing up and through the marriage, and how I ended the marriage, and the shame around that.
• 13:02
  So
• 13:03
  In order to go into my current relationship in a clean manner, I need to cycle through all that stuff, cleanse all that stuff from my own body.
• 13:15
  Not just my head, because rationally I could do it all, but how was I spawning all in my body?
• 13:21
  I needed to really metabolize it all, to let it go so I could show up differently from my wife.
• 13:27
  And that I don't think there was another place I could have done it.
• 13:33
  Maybe, maybe some therapists, but it was really the power of a men's group.
• 13:34
  Maybe, maybe some therapists, but it was really the power of a men's group.
• 13:36
  Maybe, maybe some therapists, but it was really the power of a men's group.
• 13:37
  Maybe, maybe some therapists, but it was really the power of a men's group.
• 13:39
  Yeah.
• 13:40
  Because it was a bunch of men.
• 13:41
  It wasn't just like one person I was talking to who I was, you know, paying to be my coach or my therapist.
• 13:49
  It was a group of men who didn't really need anything.
• 13:52
  From me.
• 13:53
  I didn't owe anything to them who were able to reflect back and to hold me.
• 13:53
  I didn't owe anything to them who were able to reflect back and to hold me.
• 13:56
  I didn't owe anything to them who were able to reflect back and to hold me.
• 13:57
  I didn't owe anything to them who were able to reflect back and to hold me.
• 13:59
  I didn't owe anything to them who were able to reflect back and to hold me.
• 14:00
  I didn't owe anything to them who were able to reflect back and to hold me.
• 14:02
  I mean, I remember this one time.
• 14:06
  I was uh we were at a retreat in um in Amsterdam and we were around a fire at night and I remember totally falling apart, like not being able to stand.
• 14:07
  I was uh we were at a retreat in um in Amsterdam and we were around a fire at night and I remember totally falling apart, like not being able to stand.
• 14:07
  I was uh we were at a retreat in um in Amsterdam and we were around a fire at night and I remember totally falling apart, like not being able to stand.
• 14:20
  And having two of my brothers hold me and just hold me as I sobbed and as I as I grieved.
• 14:29
  As I mourned for everyone I had hurt, for how I had felt hurt, how I had hurt myself.
• 14:29
  As I mourned for everyone I had hurt, for how I had felt hurt, how I had hurt myself.
• 14:30
  As I mourned for everyone I had hurt, for how I had felt hurt, how I had hurt myself.
• 14:38
  As I mourned for everyone I had hurt, for how I had felt hurt, how I had hurt myself.
• 14:38
  As I mourned for everyone I had hurt, for how I had felt hurt, how I had hurt myself.
• 14:39
  As I mourned for everyone I had hurt, for how I had felt hurt, how I had hurt myself.
• 14:41
  My former wife, my daughter, everyone.
• 14:42
  My former wife, my daughter, everyone.
• 14:43
  My former wife, my daughter, everyone.
• 14:49
  It was years ago, but I can picture, I can feel the heat of the fire.
• 14:53
  I can feel the two guys, you, Morgan and Soma holding me.
• 14:58
  Yeah.
• 15:00
  And wow.
• 15:01
  What a gift.
• 15:06
  Yeah, it's such an incredible transmission because that's, you know, I imagine.
• 15:12
  Not only in your own journey, but you know, rabbi now as a men's leader, work with a lot of couples, and men in particular.
• 15:19
  And I see this in guys I work with all the time.
• 15:22
  Whether it's No More Mr.
• 15:23
  Nice Guy, whether it's some of the stuff from Way the Superior Man and John, or any kind of shadow work, when the illumination happens, to, oh my God, I can actually see now.
• 15:36
  Consequences and impact I was showing up and how my former lover or spouse or my children.
• 15:46
  Right, there's such a unique threshold there of the pain of feeling.
• 15:52
  Wow, I really contributed to this.
• 15:55
  You know, certainly it was for me.
• 15:57
  And you know, maybe some shame or some, if I had only known, right?
• 16:01
  If I, oh my God, if I had only gotten this work when I was 25, in a certain energy with that, and the simultaneous.
• 16:11
  We were all doing the best we could.
• 16:12
  We didn't have these tools.
• 16:14
  You know, it's like this dance of being kind in that.
• 16:18
  Well,
• 16:19
  We work with what we were given, and most of us weren't modeled particularly great skills in this arena.
• 16:26
  And so there's that acknowledging or taking responsibility.
• 16:31
  You know, for how we impacted.
• 16:33
  But then also, you know, I guess in some sense, forgiving self.
• 16:37
  Well, there's only so much use.
• 16:39
  You know, I mean, you've you've witnessed me and my shame over the years.
• 16:41
  You know, I mean, you've you've witnessed me and my shame over the years.
• 16:41
  You know, I mean, you've you've witnessed me and my shame over the years.
• 16:43
  There's only so much use in
• 16:45
  The continual lashing should have, I should have, I should have that at some point, you know, I think men's work is really, has really been profound for me.
• 16:55
  Kind of lifting up out of, well, I didn't know, but, and then this is where the power of the group is: now that I know and I see it, now it does become my responsibility.
• 17:08
  Make sure, you know, in whatever ways I can, I restore harmony to the situation, or don't fall back into those patterns and get help.
• 17:17
  you know from guides and counsel and brothers particularly the the the peer brothers i think that's what i heard you really speaking to is you know
• 17:25
  I'm certainly pro-therapist, pro-coach.
• 17:29
  And there's something different that happens when you're in that peer circle, accumulated experience.
• 17:37
  You know, in some sense, less of a hierarchy and more of a brotherhood that really can penetrate through, or at least has for me, quite often.
• 17:46
  Yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 17:48
  So you you you touch there's so many little gems and all the things you said that um
• 17:56
  That part about stop beating yourself.
• 18:02
  But all these things I think are on a spectrum.
• 18:05
  Right.
• 18:05
  Yeah.
• 18:06
  Of responsibility.
• 18:08
  And there are some people who are very quick to say, hey, they did the best they could with the tools they had.
• 18:15
  And there are some people who are very quick to say, hey, they did the best they could with the tools they had.
• 18:17
  That was a really important thing for me to learn.
• 18:20
  You know, my parents, my friends, or me, myself, I was doing the best I could with the tools I had.
• 18:25
  And there's something around, you know, not punishing someone for something they didn't know.
• 18:31
  Yeah, totally.
• 18:33
  That's a really good way to put it.
• 18:34
  That's a really good way to put it.
• 18:35
  Well, actually, that was Abe's.
• 18:36
  That was our friend Abe, who said that once.
• 18:38
  Yeah.
• 18:39
  Don't punish me for something, or maybe it's saying about me.
• 18:40
  Don't punish me for something, or maybe it's saying about me.
• 18:41
  Don't punish me for something, or maybe it's saying about me.
• 18:42
  Don't punish me for something I didn't know.
• 18:44
  It like, oh, that's really cool.
• 18:47
  But, you know, the idea of
• 18:54
  They did the best they could with the tools they had.
• 18:56
  Or I did the best I could with the tools I had.
• 18:59
  There's a beauty in that.
• 19:01
  But I see some people who jump to that really quickly.
• 19:04
  Almost as a bypass.
• 19:07
  So it's really both are important.
• 19:08
  So it's really both are important.
• 19:10
  Both the let me grieve.
• 19:14
  Let me even feel shame.
• 19:15
  I, there's a value to shame on some level.
• 19:19
  Shame or guilt, which is, I think, a healthier effect.
• 19:24
  Sure, nuance of that of self-blame, but the guilt and the shame.
• 19:29
  Let me feel that, let me really sink into that.
• 19:30
  Let me feel that, let me really sink into that.
• 19:32
  And let me also hold this part over here: and I was doing the best I could with the tools of that.
• 19:39
  Or that person in my life was doing the best they could with the tools they have.
• 19:44
  But I see a lot of people in the conscious community that just jumped to the best they could.
• 19:48
  But I see a lot of people in the conscious community that just jumped to the best they could.
• 19:49
  But I see a lot of people in the conscious community that just jumped to the best they could.
• 19:51
  And there's a gift in that, but they're missing the truth that we need to sit in the greed.
• 20:05
  We need to sit in the celebration too.
• 20:06
  I mean, it's the whole array of feelings.
• 20:10
  Those are all good.
• 20:11
  Sitting there for a little while.
• 20:14
  So yeah, it's so true.
• 20:14
  So yeah, it's so true.
• 20:14
  So yeah, it's so true.
• 20:16
  I talked about that before of one of the interesting red flags I've come to notice when I'm
• 20:24
  Just getting to know men who might want to work in a group or something is the pretty good childhood.
• 20:30
  And then they kind of immediately go to and something about that almost always points to
• 20:36
  This kind of spiritual bypass that, like, I'm bringing to forgiving my parents because I know they were trying.
• 20:44
  And it's again, it's not that
• 20:46
  We don't want to acknowledge that and not punish them, right?
• 20:49
  Things they didn't know.
• 20:50
  But I think the danger, what I have seen, is if we then ignore the impact.
• 20:57
  It makes it much harder to feel that grief or that frustration.
• 21:01
  And then it's like a fault forgiveness because we haven't really metabolized it.
• 21:08
  They were doing the best they could and.
• 21:11
  The way they raised me, the experiences I had, whatever, had a massive impact on me, right?
• 21:16
  And who I am.
• 21:17
  And I'm now having to deal with the consequences of that, whether it was intentional or not.
• 21:22
  You know, I sometimes joke.
• 21:26
  You know, if you and I are roughhousing in the backyard and I accidentally hit you in the head with a bat, right?
• 21:32
  This is my thing.
• 21:32
  It's like.
• 21:33
  You still want me to say sorry, even if I didn't do it on purpose, right?
• 21:37
  It's like, oh God, sorry I hit you because it still hurts.
• 21:39
  It hurts no matter what.
• 21:40
  Whether my intention was to hurt you or not, it's like, oh my God, I'm so sorry that that happened.
• 21:44
  You know, I didn't want that to happen.
• 21:46
  I think there's a part of that here.
• 21:48
  And I do see nice guys, right, in particular, fall prey to this in terms of not wanting to
• 21:58
  Really point the finger at all to any.
• 22:02
  You know, they were doing the best they could.
• 22:04
  It was their generation.
• 22:05
  You know, I also see this all the time now, still.
• 22:08
  Curious if you do with.
• 22:10
  Even just spanking, which I consider child abuse.
• 22:14
  And when I talk to guys and I put it that forward, they're like, what?
• 22:18
  No, like that was just the kind of thing at the time.
• 22:20
  I was like, it was the thing at the time, and it's hitting your kid.
• 22:24
  You know, that's my personal opinion.
• 22:27
  But there's something, but there's like such a, but it was kind of the thing then.
• 22:31
  And.
• 22:32
  Yes, and you know, feel what it did to you, your relationship to pain or men or feel.
• 22:41
  Yeah, I know that story.
• 22:46
  Yeah, I had to process that in my own upbringing.
• 22:50
  I've never done that with my kids.
• 22:54
  I had to process that with my own childhood of like, yeah, that's what people did.
• 23:00
  And, you know, the severity of it from one to ten was pretty low physically.
• 23:06
  But I still remember it.
• 23:09
  I still remember that that switch of bamboo that would come out.
• 23:12
  I still remember that that switch of bamboo that would come out.
• 23:13
  Yeah.
• 23:14
  Or a fly swatter.
• 23:15
  That's kind of just gross.
• 23:16
  Come think about it.
• 23:18
  Fly swatter.
• 23:20
  On on on so many levels.
• 23:22
  But
• 23:22
  But yeah, I've had to process through that.
• 23:26
  And there's part of it of, hey, they did the best they could with the tools they had.
• 23:31
  Bypassing those feelings, which is really just, I think, a discomfort with discomfort.
• 23:39
  And I think often what happens is if I'm uncomfortable with my own discomfort.
• 23:44
  Then I'm going to try and negate yours.
• 23:47
  Yeah.
• 23:47
  Like, okay, you cried, let's move on.
• 23:50
  Okay, I said, I'm sorry, let's move on.
• 23:51
  Okay, I said, I'm sorry, let's move on.
• 23:51
  Okay, I said, I'm sorry, let's move on.
• 23:52
  You know, it's like, I want this thing to end so we can get back to peace.
• 24:01
  So it's a it's a good practice just to be able to sit in the oh wow, this hurts.
• 24:07
  And then to be able to sit with my daughter, my son, and oh, this hurts totally.
• 24:08
  And then to be able to sit with my daughter, my son, and oh, this hurts totally.
• 24:09
  And then to be able to sit with my daughter, my son, and oh, this hurts totally.
• 24:15
  Even if I wanted to, I couldn fix it, but it hurts.
• 24:18
  Let's just sit there.
• 24:20
  I'm going to be with you in it.
• 24:23
  The key there of present with you in the pain rather than.
• 24:27
  Trying to get rid of it, dissociate from it, medicate away from it, or change it, or make you wrong for it.
• 24:33
  You know, that's a big one, too.
• 24:35
  That I've had a lot of transparent.
• 24:38
  What my kid needs is just for me to be present with them in their feelings and not rescue them from them.
• 24:44
  Huge edge for me as a nice guy, you know, in my relationship.
• 24:48
  As a parent, as well, of okay, you know, I kind of have to let you have your experience because
• 24:56
  Fuels an inner capacity, but you don't have to do it alone, right?
• 25:01
  Alone in your bedroom.
• 25:02
  So many of us.
• 25:04
  Did because our parents just didn't have the skill set, the awareness, you know, around a lot of what we're now present to.
• 25:05
  Did because our parents just didn't have the skill set, the awareness, you know, around a lot of what we're now present to.
• 25:05
  Did because our parents just didn't have the skill set, the awareness, you know, around a lot of what we're now present to.
• 25:10
  And, you know, I think the I have a particular passion now as a father.
• 25:17
  The two young ones is, and then on that end, and then the men's work on the other end.
• 25:21
  It's like, you know, if I was to do a the moonshot kind of thing right now, it would be, I would spend like
• 25:29
  $2 billion on, you know, zero through five for kids.
• 25:36
  Because most, a lot of the work I now get is from men who spend decades.
• 25:43
  Unwinding some of this wounding that happens so early childhood things.
• 25:45
  Unwinding some of this wounding that happens so early childhood things.
• 25:47
  Unwinding some of this wounding that happens so early childhood things.
• 25:48
  Yeah.
• 25:49
  Yeah.
• 25:49
  And that's not even counting the intergenerational stuff.
• 25:53
  I mean, I'm a real believer in the epigenetics of the things that are passed from prior generations.
• 25:59
  It's not even our story that we're holding on to.
• 26:02
  And yeah, it's another billions shot for that one.
• 26:06
  Right.
• 26:08
  But you think back of all the trauma.
• 26:10
  Right.
• 26:10
  Think back of all the trauma.
• 26:13
  And, you know, it.
• 26:16
  Looking back at trauma through history and thinking, you know, like my father was Vietnam era, and prior to that, right, Korea and
• 26:27
  in World War Two and World War One and in this country Civil War and you know you go back most every generation had some kind of
• 26:37
  big traumatic world event.
• 26:40
  Yeah.
• 26:41
  So no wonder we end up with all this in our lap.
• 26:50
  So we got
• 26:50
  So we got
• 26:52
  And hey, it keeps you and I in business, right?
• 26:57
  Well, yeah, I mean, I think what's key about that is, I mean.
• 27:00
  You know, you're steeped in a lineage and a tradition.
• 27:03
  And I'm probably a good example of someone who's not, in a sense, that I was raised kind of Midwestern Sunday morning Lutheran.
• 27:07
  And I'm probably a good example of someone who's not, in a sense, that I was raised kind of Midwestern Sunday morning Lutheran.
• 27:08
  And I'm probably a good example of someone who's not, in a sense, that I was raised kind of Midwestern Sunday morning Lutheran.
• 27:14
  Christian never really kind of anchored in in a sense, but that, you know, I would argue the best.
• 27:22
  Lineages we do have in some of the traditions where, hey, what are some of the ways we deal with our grief or our pain or some of these traumas communally?
• 27:32
  Because it's pretty friggin' hard to do alone.
• 27:35
  Right.
• 27:36
  And as that has kind of dropped out of Western culture.
• 27:41
  And so, so hyper-agentic here in the States, of you know.
• 27:47
  What's the American dream?
• 27:49
  I want to live alone in a house with a lot of property in a white picket fest and never have to see anyone.
• 27:54
  I can, you know, there's some great gifts to that.
• 27:57
  I get the impulse sometimes, and it's not at all how we process.
• 28:05
  And that's one of the places where I love Jewish tradition.
• 28:09
  There are so many things in Jewish tradition that require a minion, which is a quorum of ten.
• 28:16
  And a funeral requires a minion.
• 28:18
  And a funeral requires a minion.
• 28:22
  So you can't do a funeral by yourself.
• 28:25
  Saying that there's a tradition, the death practice in Judaism is really beautiful.
• 28:29
  Saying that there's a tradition, the death practice in Judaism is really beautiful.
• 28:29
  Saying that there's a tradition, the death practice in Judaism is really beautiful.
• 28:30
  This is not what I thought we'd talk about today, but I think it's really beautiful.
• 28:34
  And it ties in.
• 28:36
  To this idea of community.
• 28:40
  Because we need to talk about initiation also.
• 28:43
  So in Jewish tradition, we help bury our own dead.
• 28:48
  We clean their body.
• 28:51
  There's a ritual for cleaning their body.
• 28:51
  There's a ritual for cleaning their body.
• 28:51
  There's a ritual for cleaning their body.
• 28:53
  We bury them ourselves.
• 28:55
  We put some of the earth back into the ground.
• 28:59
  And we're surrounded by 10 people.
• 29:02
  Or I guess nine other people.
• 29:04
  And through that, say our prayers.
• 29:08
  We continue to say those morning prayers, prayers of morning, M-O-U-R-N.
• 29:15
  For a full year for a parent.
• 29:18
  And then yearly, a couple times a year actually, ongoing, and always part of community.
• 29:25
  So what we often see in the conscious, I started to say community, it is the conscious community, but it's not a community in the conscious movement.
• 29:38
  I would say, is a lot of individualism.
• 29:41
  Losing, I think, the importance of what does it mean to be part of something bigger than yourself?
• 29:46
  Great, you're doing all this personal healing work.
• 29:49
  But how does that actually impact the rest of the world?
• 29:54
  What's your purpose in all of this?
• 29:58
  And I think that's really important.
• 30:00
  It's something I think we're not seeing a lot of.
• 30:01
  It's something I think we're not seeing a lot of.
• 30:02
  It's something I think we're not seeing a lot of.
• 30:03
  Even in men's groups, for that matter.
• 30:07
  What's your responsibility to this larger group?
• 30:11
  After we finish the last day of this month, we finish our group, like what?
• 30:17
  How are you so connected?
• 30:17
  How are you so connected?
• 30:18
  How are you so connected?
• 30:19
  Was it just a one and done kind of thing?
• 30:23
  What have you been initiated into?
• 30:27
  And I think it's a big question that most I'm not seeing a lot of people grapple with.
• 30:36
  What are you being initiated into?
• 30:38
  Not just manhood, but really traditional initiations were not, oh, great, now you're an individual.
• 30:38
  Not just manhood, but really traditional initiations were not, oh, great, now you're an individual.
• 30:40
  Not just manhood, but really traditional initiations were not, oh, great, now you're an individual.
• 30:48
  It's like now you're an adult who has these more responsibilities and more opportunities, perhaps, but you have to think beyond yourself.
• 30:53
  It's like now you're an adult who has these more responsibilities and more opportunities, perhaps, but you have to think beyond yourself.
• 30:54
  It's like now you're an adult who has these more responsibilities and more opportunities, perhaps, but you have to think beyond yourself.
• 31:01
  Which is such an important lesson.
• 31:03
  Your kids are really young, but you've been with enough kids as they've grown up to see there's an age where
• 31:12
  We hope they start thinking beyond themselves.
• 31:16
  They start thinking about their siblings.
• 31:18
  They start thinking about their family, their community, their world.
• 31:23
  And that's, I think, where the initiation should be going.
• 31:26
  How do you take that step into bigger responsibility in the world?
• 31:31
  And recognize your presentation
• 31:32
  And recognize your presentation
• 31:32
  I love that.
• 31:34
  Because I think that also connects to something I see in a lot of men I work with, which is some of the kind of
• 31:43
  Depression and loneliness and isolation comes from a lack feeling part of.
• 31:52
  I'm actually part of a system in some extent that needs me or that I have some responsibility to.
• 32:01
  And, you know, it's kind of the again, it's like the pathology of the hyperindividualism of like, it's probably more doable now than ever before to be a
• 32:12
  hyper-free man who has no connection or obligation or you know you just order everything off Grubhub you don even have to see people right right
• 32:22
  But that breeds, I think, a kind of depression, you know, which is both from, I would say,
• 32:29
  Community in terms of people.
• 32:31
  And, you know, I know we through John and our work, and also just through nature, like when we're actually disconnected.
• 32:39
  Oh, I'm not part of the land.
• 32:41
  It does something, right?
• 32:43
  It does something.
• 32:44
  And as men get immersed back into that and realize: oh, wait, there's this whole thing that I'm an intrinsic part of.
• 32:53
  And that I actually have an impact on, it starts to bring something back a lot.
• 32:58
  And as we see that in our local communities and families and stuff, I think that's so big, too.
• 33:02
  To me, that's one of the main gifts being part of a group is this kind of belonging and purpose thing that can get activated where, you know, in a good group, right?
• 33:13
  If you're not there, I feel the impact of that.
• 33:16
  Or, you know, if I'm not there, you feel the impact of that because it actually does bring more depth.
• 33:21
  To my life, and there, you know, the groups I've seen thrive and survive, and the ones I'm part of and have helped create, there is like a, it's not a light.
• 33:33
  Agreement: we're making joining a group, in a sense, right?
• 33:35
  Where there is something I would, you know, word gets used a lot, but sacred to it in that
• 33:41
  There's a real commitment there that means something of commit to showing up to you in whatever ways.
• 33:47
  You know, the container is going to be different, but that I think a lot of men
• 33:51
  Actually, you're missing, and as they start to feel it, it's powerful, and there can be a shift.
• 33:56
  You know, I've had to work with a few guys around what I kind of call.
• 33:58
  Feeding the meter.
• 33:59
  There's a certain kind of guy that sometimes shows up to men's group just when they really need something.
• 34:04
  If they're in crisis, and it's like, well, are you feeding the meter the other times?
• 34:05
  If they're in crisis, and it's like, well, are you feeding the meter the other times?
• 34:06
  If they're in crisis, and it's like, well, are you feeding the meter the other times?
• 34:10
  Because that
• 34:12
  You know, maybe you heard I know this, but I'm pretty sure there was like some crazy study that was like
• 34:20
  The thing that actually is the most fulfilling and makes us feel the most rewarded is not even when we receive kindness, but it's when we offer kindness and it's received.
• 34:30
  Then we're like in the relationship, right?
• 34:33
  And it's like, wow, I showed up for you and I served you in this way.
• 34:36
  Now I feel deeply connected to you, is even more.
• 34:39
  Connecting some of the research shows, then wow, people showed up and served me.
• 34:43
  And that's, again, one of the gifts I think of men's group and something that's been totally blown my mind.
• 34:49
  You know, I moved cross-country recently and rejoined a men's group I was in previously.
• 34:54
  And these guys are fucking to the grave.
• 34:57
  So they are talking about, you know.
• 35:01
  We're going to start to die together over the next decade.
• 35:04
  That's a very different kind of context than I've ever been plugged in, having been outside of
• 35:12
  lineages and traditions and strong communities in that sense.
• 35:15
  And actually quite relaxing to me in a way that I was shocked about to be able to start to talk about these things.
• 35:24
  Not fear that in the same way.
• 35:25
  So it's very I was really fascinated that you brought that up and kind of started to connect it all together.
• 35:30
  Yeah, I love that you're talking about this.
• 35:33
  I have a new group, new cohort.
• 35:35
  Cohort number six, really excited about that.
• 35:37
  The wisdom circle that starts Wednesday, so in two nights.
• 35:41
  And I've been interviewing all the men for it.
• 35:46
  And really pressing the importance of showing up every time, being the leader, as you said.
• 35:51
  And really pressing the importance of showing up every time, being the leader, as you said.
• 35:52
  And really pressing the importance of showing up every time, being the leader, as you said.
• 35:52
  And really pressing the importance of showing up every time, being the leader, as you said.
• 35:52
  The last cohort I ran, it got loose.
• 35:57
  It started to feel kind of
• 36:01
  I mean, I think the guys got a good experience out of it.
• 36:05
  But for me, as a leader, I could see there was just so much more.
• 36:10
  So much deeper we could have gone if I had held it tighter.
• 36:13
  And it was my fault.
• 36:15
  I kind of let the guys off the hook.
• 36:17
  And I think part of it was because I knew some of them from outside, friends coming in, and you know, my nice guy stuff.
• 36:23
  I wanted to be the nice guy.
• 36:24
  you know, not be a hardass.
• 36:27
  And um and I I let them off the hook and I think that that uh we suffered, but yeah, we suffered for it.
• 36:33
  And um and I I let them off the hook and I think that that uh we suffered, but yeah, we suffered for it.
• 36:33
  And um and I I let them off the hook and I think that that uh we suffered, but yeah, we suffered for it.
• 36:35
  And um and I I let them off the hook and I think that that uh we suffered, but yeah, we suffered for it.
• 36:35
  And um and I I let them off the hook and I think that that uh we suffered, but yeah, we suffered for it.
• 36:38
  I think they all had a good experience.
• 36:39
  A number of them are coming back.
• 36:42
  But in the conversations I've had leading up to this new cohort, I've really stressed: hey, how important it is to be here.
• 36:50
  I require now three things.
• 36:53
  It used to be just two things.
• 36:54
  It used to be a willingness to be vulnerable.
• 37:00
  Which is not necessarily a facility of being vulnerable, but just a willingness.
• 37:03
  And then we'll kind of teach you how to do it.
• 37:05
  And then what I would call a generosity of practice.
• 37:09
  Meaning that when the other guy is being vulnerable, I'm a hell yes.
• 37:15
  If you need me for this, I'm going to be generous.
• 37:17
  Even if it doesn't really feel good, awkward, whatever, I'm going to show up for you.
• 37:24
  But the third thing, which I've recognized I have to add, is you got to be there.
• 37:29
  I always took for granted until I realized, oh, guys are calling, oh, five minutes before, hey, something important came up.
• 37:29
  I always took for granted until I realized, oh, guys are calling, oh, five minutes before, hey, something important came up.
• 37:36
  I always took for granted until I realized, oh, guys are calling, oh, five minutes before, hey, something important came up.
• 37:37
  Like, no, something more interesting came up, or something that was going to protect you from being vulnerable came up, or something that whatever came up.
• 37:46
  You know, emergencies certainly happen, but it was just feeling like these were non.
• 37:51
  emergencies.
• 37:52
  And so a guy asked me the other day, he said, hey, I'm going to miss one of these, one of these twelve sessions.
• 38:00
  Is that going to be will it be hard for me to catch up?
• 38:04
  And I said to, Yeah, I don think it'll be hard for you to catch up, but that's not necessarily the point.
• 38:07
  And I said to, Yeah, I don think it'll be hard for you to catch up, but that's not necessarily the point.
• 38:09
  The point is what you are talking to about.
• 38:12
  Earlier, Jason, this idea of if you go vulnerable, or someone that group really just pours their heart out, or whatever it might be, and then you don't show up the next time.
• 38:26
  It just feels bad.
• 38:31
  And that's that's you're you gotta feed the meter.
• 38:35
  You gotta stay in the mix.
• 38:35
  You gotta stay in the mix.
• 38:35
  You gotta stay in the mix.
• 38:39
  Yeah, otherwise, just don't show up.
• 38:41
  Thank you.
• 38:41
  Bow.
• 38:42
  Goodbye.
• 38:43
  And maybe next cover.
• 38:44
  And maybe next cover.
• 38:45
  Thank you.
• 38:46
  You know, it's again, we both work with a lot of nice guys, and it's also one of the interesting manifestations of some of the challenges around boundaries I see that it's like if
• 38:58
  If you can't make the time to be here for yourself, that's the whole jam, you know, in some sense, where it's like learning to prioritize.
• 39:08
  Where I put my attention, right, is really demonstrating what I'm committed to.
• 39:14
  Yeah, I love that.
• 39:14
  You know, my local groups I've said, and you know, we had to get pretty strict where it's like, yeah.
• 39:21
  It's not an emergency and you're in town, you have to be here.
• 39:25
  There's no, I don't feel like it today, or there's too much work.
• 39:27
  It's just not like you got to be here.
• 39:29
  And you know, there's always going to be exceptions then, but that's kind of the
• 39:33
  We want to take the deepest claim we can and create an expectation because it does.
• 39:38
  I've noticed it too.
• 39:39
  It gets leaky.
• 39:39
  One person skips and then.
• 39:41
  Two people skip, then you can feel people aren't quite valuing it maybe as much as you.
• 39:45
  So that's well, why should I show up if I not going to show?
• 39:48
  You know, then it just gets leaky, and then groups dissolve pretty fast.
• 39:52
  And so, here's the gift about that commitment.
• 39:55
  Here's the gift.
• 39:55
  In a men's group, a good men's group, they'll challenge you about it.
• 40:01
  You know, what was more important than showing up?
• 40:04
  Explain to us what was more important than showing up.
• 40:08
  You owe us a hundred bucks for not showing up.
• 40:11
  Whatever it might be, there's a consequence to it, which doesn't exist in other parts of your life.
• 40:17
  So you don't show up fully for your wife or your kids.
• 40:21
  And they kind of shrug or they may be disappointed or whatever it is, but they they let it go.
• 40:27
  Yeah.
• 40:28
  And they let it go and they let it go until it
• 40:28
  And they let it go and they let it go until it
• 40:29
  And they let it go and they let it go until it
• 40:31
  Just hurts.
• 40:33
  And it just becomes, well, yeah, dad was never really there for me.
• 40:37
  Or my husband, I don't really feel connected to my husband.
• 40:40
  And so in a men's group,
• 40:43
  Like, we're not doing our job.
• 40:45
  I wasn't doing my job.
• 40:46
  We're not doing our job if we're not really holding them accountable.
• 40:51
  We're doing a disfavor.
• 40:53
  To their partners and their kids and their colleagues and whomever else is out there in their life because not showing up
• 41:04
  We're showing up half-ass.
• 41:07
  I mean, that's possible too.
• 41:08
  Like, I'm sitting here.
• 41:09
  Absolutely.
• 41:11
  It's way out there.
• 41:13
  I'm like looking at my phone when no one's watching, kind of thing.
• 41:19
  It creates a ripple.
• 41:22
  And I think that's one of the biggest lessons for me.
• 41:28
  In some of this work is that we create a ripple everywhere we go.
• 41:31
  In some of this work is that we create a ripple everywhere we go.
• 41:33
  In some of this work is that we create a ripple everywhere we go.
• 41:33
  In some of this work is that we create a ripple everywhere we go.
• 41:35
  And in some cases, every place we don't go.
• 41:35
  And in some cases, every place we don't go.
• 41:36
  And in some cases, every place we don't go.
• 41:36
  And in some cases, every place we don't go.
• 41:39
  It's like a negative absence of ripple or whatever it is that's that's felt like, oh, where are they?
• 41:39
  It's like a negative absence of ripple or whatever it is that's that's felt like, oh, where are they?
• 41:41
  It's like a negative absence of ripple or whatever it is that's that's felt like, oh, where are they?
• 41:45
  Um but that's one of the things I really try to teach is that when you walk into a space, you're
• 41:52
  Um but that's one of the things I really try to teach is that when you walk into a space, you're
• 41:52
  Um but that's one of the things I really try to teach is that when you walk into a space, you're
• 41:54
  Creating a ripple that you need to be conscious of.
• 41:57
  Creating a ripple that you need to be conscious of.
• 41:58
  You don't actually have to change it.
• 42:01
  I mean, sometimes you can be okay with it.
• 42:04
  But you need to be conscious that you're impacting other people.
• 42:08
  So I did this practice with my daughter for a number of months.
• 42:13
  She was maybe
• 42:15
  I don't know, 13, 14 at the time.
• 42:18
  And kept saying really judgmental things about people.
• 42:22
  Oh, look at what they're wearing.
• 42:23
  Oh, look at that.
• 42:25
  Just like that kind of the stranger.
• 42:27
  The stranger judge.
• 42:29
  Yeah.
• 42:30
  She was doing it from a place of humor.
• 42:34
  And it was, there were some funny parts, and then I realized: wait, there's.
• 42:39
  I want to see if I can adjust this.
• 42:41
  So I started talking to her about: okay, when someone wearing some whatever bizarre clothes, they may wear in the Bay Area.
• 42:51
  Not so unusual to see someone walking in with just like really something outlandish.
• 42:57
  You recognize them, but then notice the people around them.
• 43:01
  Like, what's the riddle that they're creating?
• 43:01
  Like, what's the riddle that they're creating?
• 43:02
  Like, what's the riddle that they're creating?
• 43:04
  Because I wanted her to become more conscious of what's the ripple that she's creating in life.
• 43:10
  But rather than judging them, use that opportunity as like, oh, here's a little flag.
• 43:16
  Oh, let me look around.
• 43:18
  And who in the restaurant, in the grocery store, in the theater, whatever it is, like how do they turn?
• 43:25
  Even maybe they look, maybe you just see them kind of
• 43:29
  Move their body, not even knowing why.
• 43:32
  And really, just to start recognizing what's the impact that you have.
• 43:33
  And really, just to start recognizing what's the impact that you have.
• 43:33
  And really, just to start recognizing what's the impact that you have.
• 43:36
  And really, just to start recognizing what's the impact that you have.
• 43:37
  Own your impact, even if you're good with it, right?
• 43:41
  Yeah, I want to turn heads.
• 43:43
  Totally.
• 43:44
  Right.
• 43:45
  Or I don't, or whatever it might be.
• 43:46
  Or I don't, or whatever it might be.
• 43:46
  Or I don't, or whatever it might be.
• 43:47
  Bringing that consciousness to it.
• 43:49
  And so it's the same thing with showing up for my daughter or my wife or my son.
• 43:57
  And really be thinking about something else.
• 44:03
  Right?
• 44:04
  Or bring in some kind of energy.
• 44:06
  Like what's the impact?
• 44:07
  To Matthew, is this who I want to be right now
• 44:09
  To Matthew, is this who I want to be right now
• 44:10
  Yeah, I love the ripple thing because it's something I, you know, you were one of the men that helped train me in.
• 44:17
  Like, literally, how does my body move through space?
• 44:20
  What is that going to do when leading a workshop and people are deep in work?
• 44:25
  It's a real thing, right?
• 44:26
  And as you become conscious of it, it's like, holy shit, a lot of times, you know, I'm not super tall, but I'm like six one, and I had to get conscious of
• 44:35
  My body moving through space can be a big body compared to some people.
• 44:40
  And it was one of those awarenesses that struck me over time.
• 44:44
  The thing I really love about what you were pointing to around a ripple was the both sides of it in terms of, you know.
• 44:52
  You could also say, like, wake if we're thinking of like boat in the water or something.
• 44:58
  There's kind of the negative aspect of.
• 45:00
  I've just fucking got my motorboat in the lake, and I'm not paying attention, and I'm making it a mess for everyone else.
• 45:07
  But there's another thing, maybe close to that, which is, you know.
• 45:12
  How we can own our impact, like you were saying, and our responsibility of sometimes creating that ripple is actually leading the way.
• 45:21
  You know, it creates like a like there's then people can ride my wake.
• 45:25
  And that's something I've been noticing a lot, you know.
• 45:30
  My wife saw something.
• 45:31
  I've been on a health journey, you, this last year.
• 45:34
  She saw something.
• 45:35
  It was just like how couples, their BMI tends to sync up in terms of body mass index.
• 45:41
  If one couple changes it, often the other partner will just, without even consciously trying to change their diet or anything, suddenly they just kind of sync up.
• 45:51
  And I think that's something I see in a lot of men, you know, that I work with.
• 45:55
  And I imagine you too have, you know, that maybe they feel lost in relationship or they want their partner to be a different way or the sex isn't good enough.
• 46:03
  And
• 46:03
  One of the places of power we have is, well, maybe I should go first, right?
• 46:09
  Maybe I can show up to a circle and a man can guide me deeper into myself or give me some new skills.
• 46:15
  Once I'm embodying those,
• 46:18
  Oh, then maybe it's worth seeing kind of what happens or if this relationship's going to work, et cetera, et cetera.
• 46:23
  Before it's like, oh my God, you got to be different.
• 46:25
  You got to be different.
• 46:25
  But you know, I've had the temptation to do with my partner for sure.
• 46:28
  Yeah.
• 46:29
  Yeah.
• 46:30
  And and we do see some people who who step into these groups, uh both men and women, right, doing whatever kind of deep work on themselves, whether it's therapy or coaching or some kind of group program.
• 46:42
  And they recognize, oh, my partner isn't on this path.
• 46:50
  And there's great ways to lead them.
• 46:53
  Sometimes, as you say, they just naturally, they'd be my follows.
• 46:58
  Or you're going through your motorboat on this wake, and like they're in this little floaty, and they're like, oh, this is fun.
• 47:04
  Right.
• 47:06
  Totally.
• 47:07
  Enjoying the ride.
• 47:08
  It may have worked out beautifully.
• 47:09
  And sometimes there's a place of, oh, we're just on a different dream life.
• 47:16
  Yeah.
• 47:18
  Which I see happen sometimes.
• 47:20
  How do I?
• 47:22
  There's sad.
• 47:24
  There's great, there's ways to lead your partner back into it.
• 47:28
  But sometimes there's a recognition of this is a different path we're on.
• 47:34
  Yeah, we're not fit.
• 47:36
  Yeah.
• 47:36
  And that again, I think where the wisdom of the group can be so useful of, oh, am I cutting the rip cord too early?
• 47:43
  Or, yeah, no, you like you really showed up.
• 47:46
  You know, partner is just not in that growth orientation or mindset or willingness.
• 47:51
  So, yeah, you know, it's quite impressive to me every time I'm sitting in a wisdom circle.
• 47:58
  You say that the quality of attunement and feedback I get from the men when I'm trying to suss a decision or something like that out.
• 48:08
  Pretty accurate, pretty wild, right?
• 48:09
  How people can kind of feel like, eh, you kind of haven't done your thing yet, or like, no, you know, I think this might be time for you to make a transition.
• 48:20
  It's not changing, and we've witnessed and trust us in that sense.
• 48:24
  Yeah, and trust is the thing.
• 48:28
  you know, for for real embodied work and transformation or transformation.
• 48:39
  It's not always going to solve the problem the way you want it to be solved.
• 48:49
  So, you can't be attached to outcome.
• 48:52
  If I do this, my relationship is going to be great, or I'm going to make riches, or I'm going to do whatever.
• 49:01
  But really immersing yourself is an act of trust.
• 49:09
  That I'm going to grow.
• 49:09
  That I'm going to grow.
• 49:10
  That I'm going to grow.
• 49:11
  I'm going to be more aware.
• 49:13
  I'm going to grow.
• 49:14
  I'm going to create new, healthier patterns.
• 49:18
  And
• 49:19
  And my hope is that everyone around me will love it.
• 49:27
  And I trust that whether they love it or not.
• 49:30
  Whether we're still on a path or not together, that this is the direction to be going.
• 49:35
  Whether we're still on a path or not together, that this is the direction to be going.
• 49:35
  Whether we're still on a path or not together, that this is the direction to be going.
• 49:36
  Whether we're still on a path or not together, that this is the direction to be going.
• 49:38
  That's kind of scary.
• 49:38
  That's kind of scary.
• 49:41
  Kind of scary.
• 49:42
  Yeah, we don't I I can't uh guarantee anything for men who are my men's groups, nor I'm I'm guessing you.
• 49:43
  Yeah, we don't I I can't uh guarantee anything for men who are my men's groups, nor I'm I'm guessing you.
• 49:43
  Yeah, we don't I I can't uh guarantee anything for men who are my men's groups, nor I'm I'm guessing you.
• 49:44
  Yeah, we don't I I can't uh guarantee anything for men who are my men's groups, nor I'm I'm guessing you.
• 49:45
  Yeah, we don't I I can't uh guarantee anything for men who are my men's groups, nor I'm I'm guessing you.
• 49:53
  Yeah.
• 49:54
  Nice conversation yesterday.
• 50:01
  What's the ROI on this?
• 50:02
  Like, I don't know.
• 50:04
  You got to do it for you, right?
• 50:06
  I mean, it has to be for you, that regardless of the outcome, you want to do this because you want to take control.
• 50:14
  You're showing up again, right?
• 50:14
  You're showing up again, right?
• 50:15
  You're showing up again, right?
• 50:16
  It may not work out, but there's something different to I really can feel in my body, in my bones.
• 50:24
  Showed up.
• 50:24
  I gave it all I had.
• 50:25
  I tried.
• 50:26
  I put it out there.
• 50:27
  I changed things on my side.
• 50:29
  And then it's a different kind of freedom, right?
• 50:31
  When something doesn't work out.
• 50:34
  Not that, you know, certainly for me that, well, I didn't really fucking do it.
• 50:37
  So I don't know, you know, place that would often get stuck.
• 50:38
  So I don't know, you know, place that would often get stuck.
• 50:39
  So I don't know, you know, place that would often get stuck.
• 50:41
  Okay.
• 50:42
  I went for that.
• 50:43
  That did not work.
• 50:44
  I put everything, you know, I really tried, but okay, so now I can let go of it.
• 50:49
  That just wasn't a good fit.
• 50:51
  Relationship, working partnership, or new idea, right, for a program.
• 50:56
  It was something I've had to get used to.
• 50:58
  Try stuff, some of it works, some of it doesn't.
• 50:59
  Seems like a good idea.
• 51:00
  Seems like a good idea.
• 51:00
  Take it personally.
• 51:01
  Take it personally.
• 51:02
  Yeah.
• 51:02
  If you look at the arc of it, I can tell you that
• 51:06
  My life has improved immeasurably.
• 51:09
  Yeah, same.
• 51:10
  Just this weekend, Leslie, my wife, and I were talking about: wow, this is the life we created.
• 51:15
  We created it.
• 51:17
  It wasn't the default one.
• 51:19
  It wasn't the, I'm the, I'm just living at the effect of the world.
• 51:20
  It wasn't the, I'm the, I'm just living at the effect of the world.
• 51:21
  It wasn't the, I'm the, I'm just living at the effect of the world.
• 51:23
  It wasn't the, I'm the, I'm just living at the effect of the world.
• 51:24
  It wasn't the, I'm the, I'm just living at the effect of the world.
• 51:25
  Right.
• 51:25
  It's really like this is the thing we created.
• 51:29
  And it doesn't mean everything is always rosy.
• 51:34
  We have the same challenges I think most people have in life.
• 51:38
  And wow, what a beautiful life this is.
• 51:41
  And I'm so thankful that the woman that introduced me to John and Kendra's event is not in my life.
• 51:51
  And I'm so grateful that she introduced me to not necessarily to them, but to a different way of approaching life.
• 52:03
  That has been so, so beautiful, powerful last dozen years.
• 52:12
  So thankful that I am where I am.
• 52:14
  And yeah, sometimes I look back and I see the guy who's in his mid-20s doing some of the same work.
• 52:20
  I'm like, wow.
• 52:21
  Like your whole brain isn't even fully formed yet.
• 52:27
  And then I look at the guys in their seventies who are just discovering the power of real deep work and think, okay.
• 52:27
  And then I look at the guys in their seventies who are just discovering the power of real deep work and think, okay.
• 52:28
  And then I look at the guys in their seventies who are just discovering the power of real deep work and think, okay.
• 52:36
  Never too late.
• 52:37
  This is where I am.
• 52:38
  And yeah, it's never too late.
• 52:39
  And yeah, it's never too late.
• 52:40
  And so, yeah, love doing this work.
• 52:43
  Got to meet you through this work.
• 52:46
  Yeah, such an honor and pleasure.
• 52:48
  Yeah, such an honor and pleasure.
• 52:48
  And I want to be mindful of time.
• 52:51
  So we'll start to wind things down here.
• 52:53
  But I'm curious.
• 52:54
  For men, mostly as male listeners, but sometimes some women too.
• 52:59
  For anyone that might be interested in keeping up with you and some of the, I mean, you do some, you just kick ass.
• 53:03
  work and programs.
• 53:05
  What's the best way for people to follow you or get a hit of what you're up to?
• 53:09
  What's the best way for people to follow you or get a hit of what you're up to?
• 53:10
  I don't do a lot.
• 53:11
  Online.
• 53:13
  So I do some on Instagram.
• 53:16
  You can check me out at Ted Rider Talks.
• 53:19
  R-I-T-E-R-O-T-R
• 53:21
  That lane, Ted Ryder Talks.
• 53:21
  That lane, Ted Ryder Talks.
• 53:22
  That lane, Ted Ryder Talks.
• 53:23
  And on internet, TedRyder.
• 53:27
  com, I have programs for men that are primarily here in the Bay Area.
• 53:32
  I'm just starting to think about, okay, it's time to actually do some retreats.
• 53:36
  But right now they're in the San Francisco Bay Area.
• 53:39
  And I do other programs with couples that often people fly in for.
• 53:45
  So we do little retreats here and there, and then mostly just one-on-one.
• 53:49
  And really are loving that.
• 53:51
  I'm actually going up to Tahoe right after we get off for a little mini retreat with a client.
• 53:58
  If you're looking, I'm there.
• 54:00
  Come find me.
• 54:01
  Come find me.
• 54:02
  All that in the show notes.
• 54:04
  Definitely worth a follow, y'all.
• 54:05
  Ted's wisdom is deep, and we barely scratched the surface today.
• 54:08
  So do it again sometime, my friend.
• 54:11
  Oh, great being here with you.
• 54:13
  Thank you.
• 54:14
  Thank you.
• 54:15
  Thank you.
• 54:16
  Always a pleasure.
• 54:18
  Until next time, guys.