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The Fairness Frontline: Insights in Fair & Responsible Banking · Leaders in Lending

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  You are listening to Leaders in lending from Upstart, a podcast dedicated to helping
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  consumer lenders grow their programs and improve their product offerings. Each week, here
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  decision makers in the finance industry offer insights into the future of the lending industry,
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  best practices around digital transformation, and more. Let's get into the show.
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  Hi, this is Lynn and I am here with Nick and Lindsay who
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  are the chair and Vice chair of the Fair and Responsible Banking Committee, and
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  we are here joining you from CBA Lives. Lindsay, Nick, would you
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  like to introduce yourselves tell our listeners a little bit about you. Sure.
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  I'm Nick Rayessler. I'm the Fair and Responsible Banking Officer at US Bank,
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  senior vice president there as well, and I chair the Far and Sponsible Banking
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  Committee based in Minneapolis and been doing fair lending and you to app and compliance
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  for decades now. By I'm Lindsay Yusuf. I'm an executive compliance director and
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  ally financial and I'm also the Fear of Responsibil Banking Officer and the vice chair
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  of the CBA Fear Responsibil Banking Committee working with Neck and I think I'd been
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  in the industry over twenty some years, most of the time focusing on FAAR
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  lending INDI gap as well. Great well, thanks again for joining us here
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  on the podcast. So, Nick, would you tell us a little bit
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  about what the Fair and Responsible Banking Committee does, like who are your members
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  and kind of what tribmission sure. Yeah, So, the Fair Responsible Banking
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  Committee is one of many committees that the Consumer Bankers Association has assembled and put
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  together over the years, and it's made up of fifty four banks currently and
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  so we meet monthly and the focus really is about promoting education and the exchange
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  of information ideas about fair lending, UDAPP and at times sort of overlapping compliance
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  requirements. So it's really about sort of bringing a bunch of banks together that
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  are all working on similar risk topics and discussing kind of what's going on.
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  And I think in many cases, you know, that's conversation and dialogue is
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  helpful in especially in areas where there's not prescriptive guidance, and so it's up
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  to the industry to kind of formulate best practices and things like that. Sure,
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  And there's certainly a lot of a lot of things going on in the
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  industry right now as specifically as it relates to to fairness in banking and in
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  lending. So lindsay, when you think about kind of the committee and you're
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  you know, fifty four partner banks who are members of it, how does
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  the committee really influence those external partners maybe vendors that they work with, to
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  have the same sense of importance of fair and responsible banking principles And how do
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  you see that kind of impacting then the industry that partners with banks, great
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  question. So CBE really gives us a platform where we're able to work closely
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  with vendors as well as outsider groups, consultants, attorneys, and especially each
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  other to learn best practices. So we really break to the table what we
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  see within our institutions, our experiences, and our many years of learning how
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  to implement programs and services to determine what are some of the best practices that
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  we do as a whole. And what we find is we have the opportunity
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  to really speak with again vendor groups and let them cure voices as to challenges
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  that we have when we're implementing new regulations or if a program isn't working well,
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  what we needed to do to work better for US. So, for
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  instance, we have the new ten seventy one or the Small Business Lending Rule,
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  which is going to require for many institutions to collect data and then submitted
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  on their lar for small business similar to home DAB or CRA. So now
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  we know it will be of vendors that are creating these programs for us,
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  so that we have the latform to create or collect that data, create our
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  war and then submit it to the government on an annual basis. And so
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  what we're doing working together is we can find what are some of the challenges,
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  what are some of the things that we need to do, How can
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  you make this more simple? And making sure that that is part of what's
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  going on with our third parties. But it's also looking at outside is consultants
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  as well. What are the consultants bringing. Are they hearing our challenges,
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  some of our concerns with what we're dealing with on a day to day basis,
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  and how can they help us to be more effective and efficient in the
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  work that we do. Sure, and do you have any consultants on the
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  committee as well? Or are all the committee members bank partners today? All
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  banks? That's why that is what I thought, So I think Nick,
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  you mentioned something it was interesting that the guidance isn't always prescriptive, maybe very
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  broad, and then you have to work with with either external partners or consultants
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  too to figure out how to implement that and make sure you're kind of staying
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  within the bounds. So how does the Committee think about kind of advocating with
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  the regulators or advocating in Washington or really just CBA in general to drive towards
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  a little bit more kind of clarity or prescriptive application of the regulations. Yeah,
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  and that's a great point in terms of the Committee being a bit of
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  a feeder for the CBA's advocacy efforts because they're taking sort of the industry brain
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  trust of fair responsible banking and what's important to the group on issues that are
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  arising. Maybe there's a request for information from a regulator, Well then CBA
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  is wanting to know, well, what what should we put in there?
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  If it's a it's you know, fair lending related or maybe there's a new
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  rule I mean talked about ten seventy one, and so advocating for you know,
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  hey, there's elements here that maybe aren't appreciated, are really like sort
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  of considered in the rule and we want to bring that perspective and so so
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  that's I think through our discussions of you know, changing regulations or new expectations
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  in the challenges that we have or questions that we have, we can bring
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  those perspectives. And then whether it be a one off question directly you know,
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  facilitated through the CBA, or the CBA bringing in regulators as they have
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  to our committee in the past, I think those are all ways that we
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  can have this kind of dialogue. And you know, it brings a greater
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  perspective than just any one of our single banks interacting because we all have you
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  know, government relations, folks, and we all interact in some way,
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  shape or form with our regulators too. So I think that's that's part of
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  the value that I think the CBA in the committee brings absolutely and they really
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  take all of our concerns and prove it as a whole. That really drives
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  the industry and what we're doing from a fair and responsible banking standpoint. And
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  it's great because the CBA really is the voice on the hell for us instead
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  of individual voices, it's the communal voice of fair and responsible banking. Sure
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  and I think that's that's definitely well reflected here at CBA Live, where you've
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  got a number of Bay partners, you've got vendors like us, and then
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  you've also got a couple of the regulators here both presenting and attending the sessions,
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  which is great. So then I think, lindsay, when you when
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  you think about so we're working with the regulators, working in the committee,
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  working across partners, like how does the committee then kind of disseminate that out
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  to the membership, Like how are you sharing kind of monitoring techniques and best
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  practices related to fair banking. We're always looking on what's coming out of our
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  regulatory bodies, what are the trends, what are the risks that they're identifying
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  in other organizations, and making sure that when we're meeting, we're talking about
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  that so that we know, hey, this bank has a consent order,
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  what do we need to look for internally or what best practices have you put
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  in place to help address some of these risks? Sure, and I definitely
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  think, you know, just even looking at Q one, I think the
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  number of consent orders has been relatively high across the across the industry. So
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  I think, you know, Nick, just can you maybe just kind of
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  expand on that, like how the committee is looking at those emerging issues or
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  things and new topics that are coming out of whether it's consent orders or even
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  just kind of advisory opinions that come out as it relates to fair banking,
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  Like, how do you kind of stay on top of just the kind of
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  velocity and volume of what's out there right now. Yeah, that's a great
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  question because I think all again, individually, our respective banks and programs monitor
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  for emerging risk. We're looking for guidance or consent orders and things like that
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  that we can learn from and figure out how to implement and sort of our
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  own best practices within our institutions. But what's nice is when you bring together
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  the multiple banks and CBA. So often what happens is CBA staff will say,
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  Hey, here's sort of a DC update. Here's what's happened. There's
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  been this proposed rule, there's been this file root issue, there's been this
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  whatever. So that like almost forces us to you know, focus in on
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  those things. But it's not just a Okay, I'm going to wait until
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  the committee to hear about this or something. It's it's the perspective like,
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  hey, you know, how did you read this? Or you know,
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  I don't know if I'm reading into this too much, but what did this
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  sentence perhaps mean? And so it's those kind of conversations that I think are
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  interesting and helpful and and yeah, so it's it's kind of as well as
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  I think the CBA. Again, it's kind of a two way street of
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  going all right, there might be some news article that one of our members
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  saw no one else did, and it's just you know, could have been
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  something specific to their bank and it hit their kind of media tracking. And
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  so those things are are invaluable as well to sort of go, okay,
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  well that that might not have been on my radar, So to sort of
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  use the strength of many to have this more cohesive and but yet still like
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  fair and responsible banking focused to view. And that's the lens of everyone on
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  the committee really, I mean somewhere more more or less hats. But it's
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  one thing to say, oh, you know, this news article came out
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  and the just be like a reputation impact, right, Well, then okay,
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  that's fine's headline risk, but doesn't mean anything for your program. So
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  it's those things that's like, Okay, this isn't a conclusion yet, but
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  is it something to be worried about in the future. Yeah. Actually,
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  and it seems like the last what two three years with our current administration,
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  it is non stop throwing all kinds of information at us, and sometimes it's
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  repeated, sometimes it is against previous guidance, and so we're trying to figure
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  out is this important to us now and what do we do with it?
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  And I definitely think that it is kind of an interesting point you made,
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  Nick, that that there may be something that comes out that seems related but
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  is unrelated. I think we certainly see that being on THEI side of the
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  world that uh, the industry tends to get kind of painted with a pretty
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  brong brush that you know, is uh. I think we find are fond
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  of saying and trying to like we we may not live in the same house
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  as some of those other partners, but we're certainly on the same street,
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  and so we're we're feeling some of that reputationally where you have to worry about
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  those things that may not really directly directly impact you. So I think the
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  idea of fair and responsible banking certainly is is new, but I do think
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  that it's really I think expanded more asset classes and traditionally thought mortgages a lot
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  and lending and traditional banking, but now with a kind of variety of vendors
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  out there and different products, that the stature of fair and responsible banking has
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  really become much more important and visible within many banks. So I think lindsay,
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  like, how do you think about like working with your member banks,
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  and so one of the best parts of being part of CBA is that you're
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  really working with the best in the industry when it comes to fair and responsible
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  banking. We worked at all different sized institutions and we have different experiences,
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  but we're also able. We've become friends outside of just a committee, so
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  we've worked at each other's institutions before some of us had worked together on the
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  same team, and in the future we may again. And so you know,
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  there's often times where we're calling each other or communicating outside of the committee
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  because we can't always wait them until they're exollutely leading to talk. And if
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  there's a consent order that comes out or something that's a concerned or I'm in
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  the middle of an examination and I'm being asked these questions and anytime you can
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  call or contact anyone else in our committee Gkirk and they're always available to talk
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  to you. And it really is helpful because being in fair and responsible banking,
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  it's it's not an easy position all the time. We have the honor
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  and privilege to working in this position, and I always tell my team we
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  are honored to have this role. However, we have a lot of regulatory
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  expectations and we have to make sure we're doing the right thing by our bank
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  and our customers, and so it really can be a difficult position at times,
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  so we lean on each other for information guidance, you know, sometimes
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  is just an encouraging word. But I also find that I like to benchmark
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  my program at least annual, so I can contact anyone with the committee ask
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  them what are they doing within their programs, so I can look to see
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  if there's any gaps in my program. And the gentleman to my writing,
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  I am called them many times over the years to say, hey, you're
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  now my pure bank. What kind of things are you putting in place that
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  I could consider it with in mind? So it really gives us that strength
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  again in numbers because I know I have that ability to talk to someone at
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  any time that could help me with whatever situation I'm going through. And on
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  top of that, we also have a CBA of course, so we always
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  have the ability to reach out to anyone at CBA anytime, get feedback,
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  get assistance, and it really is a great platform and kind of it's a
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• 13:43
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  com slash AI certification. Thanks and now back to the show. Do you
• 14:28
  think the banking industry is very large but is very small in certain pockets and
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  everyone seems to know each other. I definitely liked your point about not being
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  really want to be out on an island. If you're doing something really novel
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  in the area of fair and responsible banking, maybe that's not a great risk
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  to take good and you get, you know, and we talk a lot
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  about that at Upstart. I deal with a lot of our bank and credit
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  union partners and we innovate in a lot of areas and compliances area that we
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  want to be part of the pack, not necessarily innovating exceptionally there. So
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  I think that you know, as you think about, you know, working
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  with the members across the CBA and within the committee, can you share some
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  maybe examples of some of those best practices. So maybe like specific more tactical
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  things that the committees promoting to their members, as like the fair and responsible
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  banking continues to throw kind of evolve and challenge the industry. Yeah, there's
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  there's definitely a lot of different dimensions where again there's not a lot of prescriptive
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  guidance or exactly like your program should have this, this and this. Okay,
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  maybe maybe the big blocks are there, but what it actually means there's
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  a lot of wiggle room on what you decide to implement at any particular institution,
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  and rightfully so, size and complexity bank all that suck. But I
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  would say, you know, one thing that comes to mind is the area
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  of redlining risk and so longstanding examination expectations and exams, long history of settlements
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  in the area. I think the the general sort of risks and the types
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  of things that are being analyzed have been there's there's a consistent baseline, but
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  then we're seeing an evolution of additional type of investigatory requests and things like that
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  that are that are happening or just hearing from other consultants or other legal Council
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  external external parties about working on cases that are not public and some of the
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  insights from there that then get fed to the committee we discussed them. I
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  think that's that's, you know, an example to me where and even getting
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  into like for example, just this morning, we're talking about redlining and got
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  kind of deep into some of the quantitative aspects of how do you define what
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  you're your group is how do you and then what sort of analysis should you
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  kind of start at a broad brush level or dive right into specific products?
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  So those types of things that you know, you really won't find a lot
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  of sort of a guidebook, so to speak, or a you must approach
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  it this way. And so that's where you know, the dialogue of like
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  okay, well, yeah, well where do you get this data from?
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  Or you know work you know? Okay, well for redlining, it starts
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  with humda data. Well, maybe not everyone has done an analysis of a
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  particular product. Now we have small business lending gaining prominence, I guess eventually
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  even more so with ten seventy one. So then it's like, okay,
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  maybe some member banks have done some fair lending analysis in the past and and
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  others have been kind of waiting for ten seventy one. So it's sort of
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  like there's a how to approach a risk management lens of fair lending as well
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  as some of the pract to collect Well, how do I know where to
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  go for this data? You know what sources are there? You know,
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  and not really divulging anything confidential or anything like that. You know, within
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  our institutions that we can't share. I mean, we're very mindful of that,
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  but I think just having those those conversations to Lindsay's earlier point, it's
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  like, if you don't, you're just sort of saying, well, I'm
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  a smart person. I guess I'll make the decision based on this, and
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  it could be right, but having that additional context could lead you down a
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  different path and different opportunity. Sure, that actually kind of raised another question
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  for me, is that you're thinking about like the I think the fair lending
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  testing, fair banking testing, there's always been utive quantitative for getting more quantitative,
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  acquiring different levels of kind of expertise and skills. How do you think
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  about hiring for that, Like is it hard to find people who really have
• 18:55
  that expertise? And then and this is a little bit of a question for
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  both of you, both higher huring kind of on the bank side. And
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  then you know, are you seeing some challenges particularly of banks that maybe don't
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  have as much, aren't as large, and don't have the resources to really
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  hire that expertise, And if you have any advice on how they could support
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  that without really being able to then maybe hire a large team internally. That's
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  a great question. We were giving this discussion yesterday during our committee. You
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  know, I said, I feel like a dinosaur and the fair lending industry
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  because we kind of started it when it really came out fifteen twenty years or
• 19:29
  sure, and so we're always looking for the next generation that it's going to
• 19:32
  come on and be those fair lenning officers and fair responsible and banking officers.
• 19:37
  It is very difficult nowadays for just complyance to general to be hiring new persons
• 19:42
  that really are excited about it and want to do it. It seems like
• 19:45
  they're kind of staring away. But I think from a fair responsible banking perspective,
• 19:49
  we're really focusing a lot more on AI and models, and so that
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  might help to drive bringing in new people who really want to look at model
• 19:59
  validation, how to build models, and really on the technical side. And
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  so I think there's opportunities there. It's just making sure that it's an attractive
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  part to them sharing that they understand again with that data, what are the
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  results? What are we achieving here? For a reson's a little banky.
• 20:15
  What is our goal, which is to do the right thing by our customers,
• 20:17
  to bring new products and services and make it an even fair ground for
• 20:21
  all customers to have access to your products and services. So I think it
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  really is that it is a difficult right in hew, It really is because
• 20:30
  on the other side, you need people that really understand the regulations so that
• 20:33
  they can understand where there's true fair learning risk. I find oftentimes people want
• 20:38
  to join compliance by starting and fair lending, and I always say, this
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  is not really the easiest play share to start. You kind of go there
• 20:45
  midway or ending your career when you understand the basics that we your compliance programming.
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  So ideas on hiring is related. There is a talent committee that's a
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  broad yeah at CBA. But yeah, now, yeah, no, it
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  is is a difficult one. I think one thing that is a selling point
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  is the mission of a responsible banking right. This is not a checkbox exercise,
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  you know, and not to diminish any other compliance requirements, but it
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  has a very emotional and sort of struggling for the word, but you know,
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  it's very meaningful and I think can impact people in a deeper way than
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  perhaps other risk disciplines. You know, maybe you're you're super skilled quantitative analysis
• 21:38
  a person and you could be used in a credit risk capacity. It's like,
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  Okay, that's cool, we're you know, we're evaluating credit risk.
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  I mean that has that more exciting than you know, defending against illegal discrimination.
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  I don't know. Personally, I think the discrimination pieces a little a
• 21:56
  little bit more meaningful at times. But so so I think that's a selling
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  point, but it really is a struggle. You know. On the flip
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  side, there's a lot of exciting things happening with machine learning AI, and
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  so if I'm you know, a very experienced and educated quantitative analysis person,
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  you know, there might be this allure of like, ooh, you know,
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  the shiny objects and like something that's really kind of cutting edge. Well,
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  you know, you're not really going to be doing cutting edge work in
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  a compliance shop, like I mean, I'll just say, I mean maybe
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  not entirely, right, So so I think so I think that's what makes
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  it difficult at times. But I do think there are some individuals that really,
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  you know, are looking for change and it might just be a short
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  term kind of Hey, I want to be more well rounded and use my
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  quantitative skills for something different. And so that's where I think sometimes we luck
• 22:56
  out and get you know, folks that have some experienperience, but yeah,
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  by and large, I mean there's very well tenured positions and then they have
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  built that knowledge over the course of ten plus years. So it is it
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  is a risk. And one thing that I'm noticing is so my background is
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  I started in compliance with the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis. The question wasn't
• 23:23
  really about examiners, is more about you know, analysts. But I'm seeing
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  that sort of the examiner route is less taken in the compliance realm. I'm
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  seeing more people sort of graduate or maybe they have a lot of degree they'll
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  jump right into banking. And I don't know why that is, but I
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  think it seems like dating myself a bit. But like twenty years ago,
• 23:51
  as a baby examiner, I was there like okay, at some banking experience,
• 23:53
  just graduated from college. I'm learning about compliance right out of the chute
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  to kind of straight up from college. And I was there with others and
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  I can, you know, I work with some folks that US Bank,
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  for example, that I've worked with at the FED you know. So it's
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  like this progression and I think it's invaluable sort of to Lindsay's point, I
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  mean having that well rounded knowledge of compliance and perspective. I guess I'm not
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  one observation about talent pool is like it doesn't seem like there's that experience level
• 24:29
  of like, Okay, you've been an examiner for five years and now you're
• 24:32
  looking to join a bank, right. But that's a good point though.
• 24:36
  We do draw on audit teams a lot of times a little over a compliance
• 24:40
  or compliance when we moved to Honish, and so I think that's a good
• 24:42
  way to get the experience and examiners as well. So I have a couple
• 24:48
  forwer examiners on my team and then really bring great insight because they know the
• 24:52
  behind the scenes of what examiners are looking for during your examination and kind of
• 24:56
  the trends are kind of great reports how to create your analysis a little bit
• 25:03
  differently than what you're used to doing. So it really is such a great
• 25:06
  way to bring people from different parts of the industry. But makes that I
• 25:10
  think if you if you have a passion to help people and to make a
• 25:14
  difference with what your organization is doing, fair responsible banking is really the place
• 25:18
  to do that because you are you have to be passionate, You need to
• 25:21
  feel good every day that you're doing the right thing for other people, you're
• 25:25
  advocating for them, and you're really protecting other customers, and so it really
• 25:29
  that's why I always say it's a privilege and an honor to work in fair
• 25:32
  responsible banking. I think that's kind of a great end for the comment.
• 25:37
  And you know, privilege and honor to work in in fair and responsible banking
• 25:41
  is a great way to uh uh to close things out today, So appreciate
• 25:45
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