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03: "Picky" Eaters · The Kids Menu

• Chef Mark: Okay, so I'm excited to hear about how the miso pasta went. Christiana Cortina: The miso pasta was amazing. It was perfect for me because it was elevated buttered noodles. Chef Mark: That's that's the like a perfect feedback. I love that. Christiana Cortina: And I was typing this in my notes and I had a question, is it butter noodles or buttered noodles? And or is it up for bait? That's what I say. But I'm curious if people say other things, because when I typed it it Chef Mark: I would say w I would say with a D, buttered. Okay. Ooh. Christiana Cortina: looked weird. Chef Mark: I would like to hear people just call them butter noodles. Cause I can Christiana Cortina: Yeah. Chef Mark: see a case being made for it. Christiana Cortina: I agree. Anyways, back to the miso pasta. So it was super easy, which I love. I love an easy, quick recipe. And it it was just so yummy and I was curious. So with the seaweed, I was nervous about the seaweed, to be completely Chef Mark: Mm. Christiana Cortina: honest. The only time I ever eat seaweed is in my fake sushi that I eat, which is avocado rolls. Chef Mark: Nice. Christiana Cortina: which people don't like to get sushi with me because I only like avocado rolls. But that's like really the only time I eat seaweed. So having it on pasta Chef Mark: Mm. Christiana Cortina: was like very much out of my comfort zone. Chef Mark: Mm. Christiana Cortina: And my I made my boyfriend try it first. And it was just really making me feel like a child trying a new food again. And being like really nervous, like I don't know if I'm gonna like this because I don't really like seaweed that much unless it's in my sushi. So, anyways, I was going through all the feelings, I was getting a little bit nervous about it, and my boyfriend. was like my gosh just try it and I was like my gosh leave me alone and Chef Mark: Ha ha ha Christiana Cortina: He really loved the seaweed. He said he made it it made it different and he really liked that addition. I did I did try it. I tried it with the seaweed. I put a little flake on my first bite to try it. And I did not dislike it, but I definitely preferred it without the seaweed for myself. But Chef Mark: Okay. Christiana Cortina: I would definitely do it again with the seaweed next time and see if I liked it. I think I got so in my head about it that I was like so nervous about it that I couldn't even enjoy it. Chef Mark: That makes sense. But I'm I'm really proud of you for trying it and even putting yourself into that position of being like a little kid trying something new for the first time. Christiana Cortina: I know it really felt that way. And I was like, I know I'm gonna try this. I don't know why I'm psyching myself out here. but the pasta itself was so good. I loved how 'cause miso's like a little salty, right? Chef Mark: Mm. Christiana Cortina: So and I love salt. So Chef Mark: Yes, same, same. Christiana Cortina: the butter and the salt and the noodles and the parm, it was just like all really yummy together. And I wanted Chef Mark: Mm-hmm. Christiana Cortina: to ask you, so I have always I've never used miso as like a main ingredient. Chef Mark: Mm-hmm. Christiana Cortina: in my dishes, but I've used it as like, you know, a teaspoon or a tablespoon here and there. and I always get the Trader Joe's white miso paste. And I was wondering if like there's better quality miso. I know there's like is it brown miso versus white miso? Chef Mark: There's yellow and there's red, which the red looks quite brown. Christiana Cortina: Okay, maybe that's what I'm thinking. So like do you have a preference? Chef Mark: Yes, I'll I'll I'll first say yes the Trader Joe's one is the most accessible, so I do recommend that quite a bit because it's really easy to find. Otherwise, it can be a bit challenging to find other ones. The other varieties, yellow and red, happen to be just aged for a longer period of time. And I actually do really like the yellow the most because it just has a deeper savory flavor. It just gets more of that yumminess in there. I haven't found personally too many use cases for the red. I still have a huge tub of it in my fridge. I don't go to that one very often because the flavor is bit stronger and it also has a stronger color so it would affect that the look of buttered noodles pretty significantly it would change the appearance. I really like the yellow it's really deeply savory and yummy. So if you can find it and are curious to try it, I think that's worth it. And I think it's always gonna be a background ingredient in that way because it is so concentrated in flavor and salt. Just having a couple of teaspoons in the whole dish kind of is the vibe. Christiana Cortina: Yeah, thanks for that. I definitely I was I had a feeling that the darker one had more flavor. So I was wondering like if you had a preference because next time I would definitely try to find whatever one you recommended, the yellow one. Chef Mark: Mm-hmm. Christiana Cortina: because I almost feel like I could have had more of that like savory miso flavor and really liked it too. So I'll definitely do that and give you an update. Chef Mark: Amazing. I w I wanna try that pasta again soon and also introduce it to more kids 'cause I think it is pretty l likeable with the s the base flavors of salty and savory and then the seaweed being optional and that's a opportunity for growth and trying something new if the kids are open to it. Christiana Cortina: I agree, I think it's the perfect kid recipe. Chef Mark: Amazing. Christiana Cortina: I've never really met a kid who doesn't like butter noodles, so Chef Mark: There's certain foods that are just easy to like. Cool, well let's move along. Christiana Cortina: Okay, cool. today we want to talk about the term picky eater. Chef Mark: Yes. Christiana Cortina: Chef Mark, do you have any initial thoughts when I say that? Chef Mark: I do have initial thoughts. I think for us that's a way that we can respond to language that people are using, but we've discussed together, Christiana and I, that we don't identify with calling kids or identifying kids or anyone as a picky eater, because I think that can be quite detrimental to kind of infuse that into one's identity. What you think? Christiana Cortina: Yeah. Definitely. I've seen it happen in action plenty of times. And I think when kids hear something over and over about themselves or maybe anybody, you start to believe that. and it really takes away that growth mindset and there's a lot of ways to reframe language to help kids be more motivated to try new foods and open to a variety of different things in their diet. Chef Mark: Yeah, I completely agree. I really think it it comes down to the hearing that identity piece reinforced over and over again. And then it I don't think it matters what age you are, because I've seen adults with the same kind of mindset and you believe that about yourself. It's a belief and it's an identity piece and you just say, I am, and you fill in the blank with picky, choosy, whatever it is. I'm not I don't know what other words. What other language comes to mind for you? Have you heard other people or kids be talked about a certain way? Christiana Cortina: Usually when somebody calls a kid a picky eater, it does have like a negative connotation to it. And Chef Mark: Mm. Christiana Cortina: it leans toward difficult, in my opinion. Chef Mark: Mm. Christiana Cortina: Like the way that it's said is like, they're so picky. And it kind of has that like, they're so difficult because they're picky. so I think it just kind of has this like surrounding feel to it. And you know, when I tell people that I work with kids, I will sometimes say picky eaters, sometimes I'll say select. collective eaters. I think regardless there's not really a way to say it that doesn't put a kid in a box. Chef Mark: I'm having like a new thought right now and I think that's why I love these conversations so much. Cause I think when you talked about the association with being difficult, that makes me think about how it's inconvenient for the parent or whoever's trying to feed the child. And I don't know if I've i identified that before, 'cause it could be something that's just purely annoying or just difficult for the parent, and it's they're making it more about them rather than taking the extra time and patience to work with that child to help them. Try new things and even shift the kid's identity. Christiana Cortina: Yeah. difficult when a child is more selective or more picky. And I think that's worth acknowledging. Like it does make things more challenging as the person who's feeding that child. but it also it's a normal developmentally and some kids are more selective than others. there's so many things that go into it that can determine if a kid is going to be a selective eater or picky eater. So yeah, I think like recognizing that it is more difficult and is more challenging is completely valid to feel that way. But Chef Mark: Mm. Christiana Cortina: also shifting language, especially around the child that you're feeding, can be really important to get them on the right path of like maybe they are selective, but helping them grow and have that opportunity to expand their diet can be done in a positive way and consistently. calling a kid picky or putting that in them putting them in that identity can have negative connotations. Chef Mark: Yeah, I completely agree with that. I'm actually curious to hear a little bit about some of those deeper details about developmental milestones. What have you learned in your work about different ages of kids being more open to things and then kind of closing down and being a little more selective and then opening up again? Because I've seen that kind of trajectory, but I don't know that much about what are the commonalities among those ages and milestones. Christiana Cortina: Yeah, I mean I could talk about that forever. So definitely like a lot of times when babies start eating food, like they're kind of open a lot of times to like eating whatever's on their plate. They're interested in different foods, they're interested in exploring foods, like when they're still sitting in their high chair. and then once they kind of become a toddler, they're starting to form their own identity that's separate from their parent. And they're starting to have their own opinions and feelings, and they're also Growing at a slower pace. So their appetite is decreasing and they are becoming more opinionated potentially about the food that they're being served. And there's a lot of ways that you know parents can support their journey. That being said, it can be really difficult and frustrating, and parents can react to those moments in ways that might not be as supportive. Especially with kind of the messages that maybe parents themselves grew up with and messages that they may be hearing elsewhere. Does that answer your question? Chef Mark: Yeah, that was actually really helpful to hear about those moments, especially I really like the part about toddlers becoming more individuated and also having a slower rate of growth. And so they're not just needing maybe as many calories and they're not open to just like having all the things that they need for their body to keep growing at that same rate as infants. Christiana Cortina: Exactly, yeah. Chef Mark: That's really interesting. And for me, I think right now my theme for today is already emerging of identity. Cause I keep hearing like individuating becoming your own person, even as a toddler. And I'll share briefly about what was coming to mind earlier. I just read the book Atomic Habits by James Clear. Have you read that book before? Christiana Cortina: No, but I've heard of it. Chef Mark: It was amazing. And one of my main takeaways from that book was the identity piece of like, I am the kind of person who, and you fill in the blanks, and we have all those hidden scripts and like invisible things that we believe about ourselves. But if we're able to start to like uncover those and then shift the identity, that's when real new habit formation happens. And I think that can really really apply to food. My my growing edge has been kind of around exercise and going to the gym. And just about a year and a half ago, I was not. person who went to the gym, I would have said, like, I'm not a gym person. Like, I don't do that. And it's kind of a fixed identity thing about who I am. And so I started reading this book, hearing this like new idea and started shifting my identity and just starting to tell myself, I'm the kind of person who does go to the gym. And that's been really helpful. So I think that can really be applied to the food thing. And we've already talked about an external person saying to the kid, this kid's a picky eater, so you have that internalized, but what what would it look like for the grown ups around that kid to start shifting the language around it? my my kid is someone who sometimes tries new foods. Christiana Cortina: Yeah, yeah. I was just thinking that like as you were saying, you kind of had to shift your perspective of like I'm the type of person who so I think it can be really helpful for parents to be like saying those types of things to their child. So, you know, if I think sorry, I'm getting all lost in my thoughts. I have a million Chef Mark: No, go ahead. Christiana Cortina: things going through my head. So one thing is, you know, taking the pressure off is really, really important in my opinion. So there's sometimes there's like you have to try this food if you want to do this, this, or this. you just have to try one bite because you might like it, and sometimes that works for families, and sometimes kids are open to doing that, and not everything works for every family, so it's very nuanced. I definitely say most of the families and parents I work with are struggling with bad. Around mealtimes and difficult situations where the child is dysregulated and upset because they either don't want to try a new food or they want their food that feels the most comforting and enjoyable to them at all times. So the trying one bite to see if you like it may not be beneficial for those types of situations. So I really like to encourage parents to take that pressure away and to offer new foods and model eating those foods. Foods in front of your child and not forcing them or pressuring them to try a bite if they're not ready to do that. And saying things language-wise, like, you don't want to try that today, but maybe another time you will want to try that, or you tried that and you didn't like it today, but maybe another day you'll try it and you will like it. So instilling that growth mindset into them of like, you did this thing, or you didn't do this thing, but maybe next Chef Mark: I really appreciate your perspective on the nuance of everything and how not every single approach works for every single family. And even within one family, not every single time something may or may not work. I I really appreciate that because I think that's something that everybody needs and can give themselves a lot of grace and space for although this thing may not ever work for our family. And then maybe sometimes we could try this thing. I think it's really important to kind of spread that. level of disgrace for people and for each person who's listening to this to extend that to yourself. Christiana Cortina: Yeah, definitely. And it is so challenging and it's really frustrating when you keep trying things and they don't work. And then a lot of times the automatic response is like putting that pressure on. even if you're not doing it in a verbal way, kids can feel it. So and you know, it's kinda like I talked about with the miso pasta with the seaweed, like I was very nervous about it and it really made me feel differently When I was like trying something new because I was nervous. So envisioning a child in a situation where they're feeling pressure to try something, it's going to make them feel like they're not in this safe regulated state to be open to having something new. so I think that's really important. And I think that's where something that can shift. if there was like one thing to do, it'd be like focus on that environment and the feeling that's being created at the table rather than focusing on. Chef Mark: Okay. is have me segue a little bit into the next thing I wanted to share about, which was you you as the adult having that experience of trying something new and putting yourself in a kid's shoes. So I just taught a cooking camp this past week and I introduced the kids to lots of different foods. Many of them they had never tried lots of like fresh vegetables. We had a sushi day and one of the things we did was we created some veg vegetable tempura. And so I brought Chinese eggplant which most kids had not seen before. That's the long Long narrow one. And we had carrots, which is very familiar. We had broccoli and we had green beans. And out of those flavors, broccoli raw, like not cooked broccoli, is my least favorite food almost, period. I can't think of things that get me kind of like squeamish more than that. And it's just the texture of all the little florets. Like they're like, there's like a hundred mini flowers on the top of it, and just that texture for whatever reason. really makes me like I am getting chills thinking about it in the worst way right now. But what I did during class was I told all my students about that. And so many of them actually like raw broccoli and they were eating it in front of And so I said, okay, you're enjoying a food that is actually a little hard for me to enjoy. But right now with you guys, I'm gonna take another bite right now and continue my journey of just trying to be uncomfortable with it and just have that experience and recognizing that it's not my favorite food, but I'm gonna be okay. Christiana Cortina: Yeah, that's so cool. I love that you modeled that for them and we're honest with them. and that kind of made me think of something too is it's okay that kids have preferences and kids aren't going to like everything. So instead of thinking of it as like I want my kid to like tr like all of these foods, it's the parents' role or the adult's role to offer that food and allow them to try it and then respect their preferences of like that. Liking it or not, and I mean, like I said before, I only used to eat buttered noodles, and now I eat almost anything, so it's letting them figure it out themselves instead of kind of trying to control the situation. I want them to like these foods, and it's always that good intention of you know, we want kids to be healthy and we want them to like certain foods that are gonna help them grow and flourish, but there's a way to do it without instilling that. that fear in them if that makes sense. Chef Mark: Completely And what I kind of took from what you just said was celebrating the difference of preferences. And that was something that I actively did during the time together with all those kids. And a lot of the times what I what I've learned in my classes was to let kids vote with their thumbs. So we can go thumbs up, thumbs sideways, or thumbs down, and letting them have that completely like there's no strings attached. You can give me as many thumbs downs as you want, and that's just you telling me what you thought of it. And it was cool to then go around the room and I kept highlighting, like, okay, for this one food, we all tasted the same thing. We have all these different votes and it was and it was very frequently a mix. And some foods like we talked about butter noodles, pretty easy to like. We tried I let the kids try straight sugar because we had that as one of the ingredients in our sauce. And so we taste sugar plain. Everyone's like, yeah, thumbs up sugar is great. And then other things were way more mixed and I celebrated all of it. I said, look at that, like that's kind of cool that everyone could taste the same thing and we all have a different takea takeaway from it. That's actually really cool and that's a big part of what makes us human beings. Christiana Cortina: Yeah, definitely. It like makes us who we are. And I think that is really important too. Like the foods that we love and enjoy are part of our identity. and that also made me think when you were talking about sugar, is I think there's also a lot of fear around kids like really enjoying sugar and I think like really being realistic about it is like, yeah, it makes sense. Like I think most people really enjoy sugar. It's highly palatable, it tastes good. you know, and it gives us quick energy. So, you know, there's a lot of fear behind that, but then that can sometimes lead to more restriction. and that can be problematic, especially for kids who have a really, really strong desire for sweeter foods or have a really limited variety of foods in their diet. so it's definitely something that I think can be misconstrued as something to fear and just something that it's a way to navigate it a little bit differently. Chef Mark: Yeah, completely agree. And I mean, that just feels like we could do a whole episode on on sugar. I think the thing that just comes to mind is like yeah, letting letting them enjoy it. And you know, in a book I read recently about how we taste, that was the name of the book, really cool book. We were evolved to have a high preference for sugar because it helps signify that foods are good and not rotten and that they're full of calories which we need to survive and keep going and make our brains and bodies grow and Keep going. So it makes sense that we really like sugar. It's one of those things that, like you said, is highly palatable. And everyone gave a thumbs up. We all like it. Christiana Cortina: Yeah. And that's same thing with like carbohydrates. Carbohydrates especially simple carbohydrates, which are sugar at its essence. So those things that are highly palatable, like we are engineered to gravitate towards those things. And it's a completely normal thing for us and especially kids to do so. another thing that I was thinking is a lot of times if restriction comes into play or labeling foods as good and bad and people categorizing sugar as bad or it feeling restricted by a child, oftentimes that child can have a scarcity mindset around that specific food. And there's actually a pretty famous study, I think it's it's called like don't eat the red MMs, or something. along those lines and basically they had two groups of kids and one of the groups was told like do not eat the red MMs and one group was not told that they could eat whatever color MMs they wanted and then they said you know you can eat whatever MMs you want and it led to the kids who were originally told not to eat the red MMs to consume more red MMs after they were allowed so it and it's been a while since I read that so hopefully I explained it correctly but it's that's the you know Know the basics of it, and it really does show that putting certain foods on a pedestal as like these are more restricted, but with kids, it's like, but those taste better to them, so it can be really confusing, and it also Chef Mark: Mm. Christiana Cortina: can lean into that morality. It's like these foods are bad, but then if a child is consuming that food and thinks it tastes good, it can really have the impact that. am I bad because I like this bad food? so those Chef Mark: Wow, yeah. Christiana Cortina: words can be really, really misleading. Chef Mark: Yeah, and I was thinking of the child feeling shame for liking something that is supposedly bad. Christiana Cortina: Yeah, and shame and guilt around food are super common. especially in adults that I work with and teens. There's a lot of shame and guilt and Chef Mark: Hm. Christiana Cortina: that is super common and is not how it has to be. And I don't believe that there's a place for shame and guilt when it comes to food and I like to help people move on from that and Chef Mark: That's so beautiful. I love that that's a huge part of what you do in your work. That sounds like kind of the cornerstone of what you're doing. And I really believe in that too. And I'm I'm approaching it from a different angle. I don't have the same training as you, but I wanna have everyone celebrate all the foods that are available to them. And in my classes, I'm not putting any labels or judgment on the sugar when I'm just giving each kid a sprinkle of sugar. Let's taste it and go, my gosh, it tastes so good. And then just create opportunities for everyone to try all kinds of things and like or not like things. I think that's just we know we all need space just to not have the labels and morality placed on the foods. Christiana Cortina: Yeah, and that's so important that you're ha providing those messages. And I really like that you celebrate all foods for what they are. because imagine in that moment if you all tried the sugar and then you made a comment, not that you ever would, but you made a comment like, you know, we're only gonna put a little sugar because sugar is actually bad for you. You know, imagine Chef Mark: Well Christiana Cortina: as a kid how that would feel in that moment. Chef Mark: Yeah. And it would be confusing and like, why are we using any of it? Christiana Cortina: Yeah. Chef Mark: Like, yeah, that's just that really kind of just messes with a young mind who I'm learning more and more how young children it just have very black and white thinking and that's how they're approaching the world and learning about okay, what things are are okay, because there are there are things that are morally good and bad that we need to learn how to figure out how to navigate. But it's just too too confusing if you're doing stuff like that. It's just so they don't have the ability to understand the nuance of things if you're putting those labels on like that. Christiana Cortina: Yeah, especially with food and I think there's just increasing messages, especially around sugar and processed foods, that they're toxic or poison and that's really harmful for kids, especially, you know, if they're going to school and their friend is eating something that their parents have told them is toxic and poison. It's like that's so confusing. I mean, they're like, Why is my friend eating something that's toxic and poison? So I think like the language we use around food is so, so impactful and so important. and then just really stepping into the role of like what is the responsibility of the parent and then what is the responsibility of the child in the feeding relationship. I wanna talk about the division of responsibility. D have we talked about Chef Mark: cool. Christiana Cortina: this before? Okay, Chef Mark: Yeah, a little bit, but I want to hear way more. Christiana Cortina: So the division of responsibility was developed by Ellen Satter, who is a pediatric dietitian and she's also a family therapist. And she does a lot of research around the feeding relationship between parents and kids. And her kind of main foundation of the feeding relationship is the division of responsibility. And what that means is that parents are responsible for what food is served, when it's served, and where it's served, and then kids are responsible. Responsible for if they eat the food and how much food they eat. The parents' role is not to control what the child chooses to eat or how much of it they eat. The parents' role is to serve that food and model that food being eaten. and there is the know a lot of nuance in that there's still other things to provide like structure and balance. it sounds so simple but when you really think into it when there's interruptions in that dynamic it can cause a lot of chaos. one thing I want to mention too is Ellen Satter, some of her practices are super helpful and there's some things that I feel are a little more nuanced, especially as more research comes out. Chef Mark: Okay, that's huge. And I'm just thinking about the few examples that I've seen recently. I have three separate examples that I've seen where a grown-up was asking the child what they were gonna be eating and kind of just had this long drawn out conversation. I could s and I some I didn't really know this tactic that or I don't know what you what would you call it, what would you call this framework? Christiana Cortina: Yeah. Chef Mark: Yeah, I didn't even know about this yet, but something just felt really off. And the kid was confused and felt like there was way too much burden being placed on them. One was in Costco recently. They were shopping and the the mom was kind of just asking this kid, you know, what do you think we should be having for dinner tonight? And do you want this or that or Asian food or chicken? Or we have rice. we could buy this. And the kid was kind of just stumped and didn't seem like they had the ability to make that choice. It felt too big of a decision for that kid to. be making so I think this is really helpful to have just some a really clear framework that kind of just says okay the grown up is gonna do and I'll see if I got this correct I'm being tested right now what we're gonna eat when we're gonna eat and where and maybe that was out of order but then the kid has the choice of if I'm gonna eat it and how how much how much I I got the how how much I'm gonna eat of it Christiana Cortina: How much? Yeah, good job. A plus. Chef Mark: Thank you. Christiana Cortina: yeah, I that's exactly it. And you know, that is so simplified. So it's Chef Mark: Yes. Christiana Cortina: like, okay, I'm not saying like this is it, do this. Because then, you know, there's so many nuances. It's like you still want to make the child part of some of the decisions to make them feel like they do have a choice. And you also can involve them in like choosing certain things. So it's like really about providing like a structure and then some freedom within that structure. that's really where I help parents is like it's really hard to find the balance between not being so structured that it becomes restrictive, but not being so permissive that a kid is in charge of too much and then doesn't have any kinds of guidelines around food. So really finding that middle and that looks so different for everyone because there's so many factors Chef Mark: Mm-hmm. Christiana Cortina: that go into it like time and you know finance. And access to food, and you know, all of the things that go into feeding a family are so challenging. So it's not as easy as you know, parents pick what, when, and where, and kids choose if and how much. But that framework is really helpful when starting to implement that structure and those changes. Chef Mark: Yeah, thanks once again for just kind of creating space for nuance and the whole spectrum of all these different things that can happen within every different type of family. And even like from day to day, I think about family to family and then just moment to moment we all have different things that are going on. Sometimes I'm really spread thin, super stressed. Sometimes I have extra time and really want to do a like a deeper project kind of cooking. and I I had a really positive experience with my daughter this week about collaborating together. She's twelve and I asked her if she had any ideas because I I was being quite honest. I was like, I don't have any ideas for dinner yet tonight, but I was wondering if you had any cravings or ideas for what you w might wanna make. And she was like, Ooh, I wanna do something maybe different. I'm thinking of like Texas food. And I was like, like what does that mean to you? Like I have ideas. And I was like, she's like, I don't know, like maybe some sort of like chicken thing. And I was like, What do you like? Well, barbecue. She's like, No, I don't really like barbecue. So I'm Yeah, like what would it be? And then it was so funny where we ended up was so different than her first inspiration, but it got it got her wheels turning. And we ended up with some sort of breaded chicken that was lemony. And then I Christiana Cortina: Ooh. Chef Mark: I gave her I my idea of some vegetable options that might pair well that were in season and we ended up with asparagus 'cause we wanted to both do something that we hadn't had in a little while. was fun and then ended up just making mashed potatoes. So that kind of was the anchor for like what she thought of for like Texas food of like a side that would go with barbecue maybe. But that was just a really positive experience to collaborate with her. And I'm proud of I think what I did pretty well in that situation was like let her have the space to give a bunch of ideas. I worked with her, had like an open structure for that, didn't restrict anything. And then at at the end of it kind of I helped narrow it down and make those final decisions and then went grocery shopping and like kind of made that happen and brought to the table. Yeah. Christiana Cortina: Yeah, that's awesome. I bet it was delicious. It sounds so good. Yeah. Chef Mark: It was really delicious. And it was fun for me because I wouldn't have had any of those ideas for that dinner that day. Zero of those things would have shown up on the plate. So that was really fun for me. I and I just enjoyed having the kind of co-creation process with my daughter. Christiana Cortina: Yeah, that's so fun. And especially like I feel like at twelve, that's really appropriate, you know, to have her Chef Mark: Mm. Christiana Cortina: as part of that process. And I bet she felt so much ownership over that. Chef Mark: Hmm, yeah. That's I think a good point too, 'cause there could be younger ages where that me doing the exact same thing with with her at a younger age would have been too burdensome for her. Christiana Cortina: Yeah, yeah. And it all you know, that also depends on the child too. So it like you said, Chef Mark: Totally. Christiana Cortina: you know, so much nuance. But the other thing I wanted to say too is with the division of responsibility, it's not meant to put any pressure on the parents of, you know, you have to be serving the quote unquote right things. It's more taking away the pressure of trying to control the outcome of what you are serving. Chef Mark: Mm. Christiana Cortina: and I also wanted to say I'm not saying if your child only enjoys chicken tenders and mac and cheese or buttered noodles to just automatically switch up and start serving them something that they've never had before because that may not go well. So yeah I just wanted to add that in there because I feel like Chef Mark: Yeah. Christiana Cortina: there's so much thought behind it and I think it can be overly simplified. Chef Mark: Yeah, I I agree with that and I once again, I'll say it again, appreciate you creating that nuance and caveat for everyone to have their own experiences. Christiana Cortina: So one thing that I hear from parents is, you know, I put all this effort in and I made this nice meal and my kid won't eat it. And now I'm upset or annoyed or frustrated. And personally, I do not have kids. Also wanna disclose that, you know, I completely can only imagine how challenging it is to feed children all the time. but I can on a personal level imagine slaving in the kitchen And then my child not wanting to eat it or not liking it. So I am curious, you as a dad and as a chef, if this happens to you with your kids and how that makes you feel, because I don't know if I would take it well. Chef Mark: it definitely has happened. And it's it's a unique type of frustration. I don't know if It can be described if you haven't experienced it that exact way. But potentially it could be close if you're doing it for a loved one who's an adult or something, cooking for someone with them in mind, working super hard, putting all this energy and effort into it, and then having them not like it. With a child, there's an extra layer, I think, of like I love you so much. I'm trying to feed you and keep you alive. And I I thought this would be really great and I thought you would really like this. And then just kids have a unique way of just having full on like disdain or just like lack of empathy at all. Cause they don't need to. They're like, no, this is gross. I hate it. I'm not eating it. And you're just like, I cannot believe this. And I am thankful to report that at the moment in time that I'm at with my kids being 11, 12, and 14, this happens extremely rarely. I was just thinking about it. I'm very grateful for where I am right now. But I have had this happen so many times in the past. It is deeply frustrating. And I I really I think I've just had to navigate that exact dinner table experience with them and maybe make the you know exceptions for you can eat something else because I need you to eat food or sometimes say this is just what we have today and I think that is a pretty good lesson too of like I don't have the ability energy to do different or more right now. And at certain ages, when they've gotten a little older, I've actually given them the opportunity because I thought really the only thing that's limiting right here is my energy and emotional capacity. But if you actually wanna make something else, I'm open to that. And I'm not really that interested in if I think it's healthy or unhealthy or like meeting some sort of standard. So if you want to go in the kitchen and figure out what's there and make something else, I'm I'm open to it. Christiana Cortina: I love that approach. I think that's awesome. And I like how sometimes you said if you did have that capacity, you may offer something else, but when you don't, you can give them that responsibility and then they can Chef Mark: Mm-hmm. Christiana Cortina: decide and then they can almost realize, you know, that what goes into having to make that meal. Chef Mark: Yeah, and I'm just remembering now there's been sometimes when I have made that offer and then immediately they turn it down because they're like, I don't want to put that effort in. Absolutely Christiana Cortina: Ha ha. Chef Mark: not. No way. I thought you were gonna hand me a grilled cheese sandwich, but if I have to do it, I'm out immediately. And that's pretty telling. Christiana Cortina: It is, it is. And it's so understandable too, right? I mean, obviously Chef Mark: Yes. Christiana Cortina: if like you don't want the meal and then you're like, Mm, can I have something else? And somebody's just gonna make it for you, I mean, I can't say I wouldn't take up on that offer. Chef Mark: Absolutely. That's that's straight up magic. That's what that is. If you're a kid, Christiana Cortina: Right. I like Chef Mark: you're like, I just want something new and it shows up. Yeah. Christiana Cortina: Yeah, like or just I want something that I like. Like, I'd rather have mac and cheese. Yeah. Chef Mark: Yeah, of course. And I feel that way many times in my adult life too. I wish food foods that I want would magically appear in front of me. Christiana Cortina: I know, right? I reposted something the other day on Instagram and it was like my favorite childhood memory is someone else making me dinner every night. I know, right? Chef Mark: That's so good. It's so real. Christiana Cortina: I know and I think it's so necessary to point out that a couple of things. You're a chef and sometimes your kids still hated your food. And my gosh, I'd literally be crying myself to sleep. And the other thing Chef Mark: Ha ha ha. Christiana Cortina: is like we both genuinely enjoy cooking and it still feels like such a chore to cook and there is such a mental load that goes behind not only feeding yourself, but feeding a partner, pe feeding your friends. family. There's so many decisions. There's so much, you know, planning and going shopping and making sure you have the things you need and having the time to do that. So that mental load is just so so much, especially with everything else that parents have going on. so yeah, I just wanted to to recognize that. So not only are you making the time to do all of that and then your kid hating your food, it's a lot. Chef Mark: Yeah, and hope that's encouraging for anyone listening. Even as a professional chef and someone who enjoys cooking, my kids might full reject the meal. And I'm my personality, I'm grateful for those experiences because it's helped me build resilience and not be as phased by that. But if you are really, really like heartbroken over one of those moments, that is a completely appropriate. Christiana Cortina: Chef Mark is really good at using those moments as learning opportunities. And I too I do Chef Mark: Yeah. Christiana Cortina: take them personally a little bit. Chef Mark: I I love I don't know, that's just been me from day one. I just love putting myself into a challenging situation, seeing what can I take from it and how can I grow through it. But it's still hard sometimes and sometimes I d in that moment don't love it. But that's part of my identity that I've wrapped in is like I'm someone who grows and can do hard things. Even if in those moments I'm like, I hate this. I wish I wasn't here now. Christiana Cortina: Yeah, and it's so hard too, I'm sure, in those moments, like not to react to your child choosing not to eat what you made or disliking it and you feeling exhausted and like you put in all this effort and energy and not, you know, reacting of like, like you're so picky. I just made this nice meal for you and you know, not saying that parents always do that, but I'm sure that's like how it feels on the inside. So really catching yourself in those moments. Chef Mark: And let's let's highlight that I have ha been very frustrated and had a whole lecture to them many times. Christiana Cortina: What? Chef Mark: I haven't always been calm, so that's that's worth noting. Christiana Cortina: Yeah, that's nice to note. Thank you for sharing that. Chef Mark: Yeah, we're not here to to be projecting perfection. Christiana Cortina: No, definitely not. especially when it comes to food and cooking. And I don't think there's any space to try to find perfection. my favorite word when it comes to food and feeding and eating is the word flexible. Chef Mark: Ooh, say more. Christiana Cortina: So there's actually so Ellen Satter has a definition of She it used to be normal eating, but now it's being a competent eater. And it's kind of long. It's like a whole paragraph, but I love it. And it's just like the best thing that I've ever read about what it means to be a flexible or competent eater. And she talks about flexibility with you know, your eating is going to change depending on so many different factors. So having a flexible mindset about food in general and about eating and your child's eating is going to get you much further than having the mindset that it has to look a certain way or be a certain way especially if you're using the word perfect. Chef Mark: That's kind of huge. maybe that's our takeaway word for the day is flexibility. Christiana Cortina: Yeah, definitely. I think keeping that in your mind and really reflecting on like, am I flexible with food? do I have rules in my mind about what foods I eat and when I eat and where I eat and you know, how does that impact my feeding relationship with my kids? Chef Mark: Wow, okay, I'm thinking about how I wanna challenge myself. This week, because I think I'm pretty rigid about when I eat. I kind of eat exactly at the prescribed meal times, probably what I did when I was a child. Like breakfast is like in the morning at a certain time. And a lot of times I find lunch, I'm not really hungry, like at noon or even one. So just tuning in a little bit more during those times and seeing if I maybe have snacks at different times. So I'm not a big snacker. And maybe if I have meal times at different times when they just when I feel hungry and it feels more right in my body. So that's something I think I'm gonna check into. Yeah. Christiana Cortina: Yeah, I'm excited to hear your reflections. And the other thing I want to say with that too is really like trusting yourself and trusting your hunger is a huge thing that I work w with clients on. And usually if you aren't able to do that, it's harder to trust your child that they know. if like how much to eat and when to stop and when to eat. obviously you're providing that structure, but I see a lot with like trust when it comes to the feeding relationship and that sometimes being a challenge when it's hard for someone to trust themselves because of their past experiences and the messaging they grew up with around food or, you know, just a society's messages around food. Chef Mark: Man, that's a great reminder to just keep looking inward at ourselves as we're attempting to, you know, raise kids and do food and feeding with kids to just keep looking inward and seeing, okay, what are things that might be just a place that I want to grow or something that I might need some healing with. Christiana Cortina: Yeah, and recognizing the challenges that are specific to your child or family. especially when it comes to children having maybe they're neurodivergent and that impacts their appetite and things like that. That can really change the way that you have to go about feeding. Chef Mark: Mm-hmm. Well that's about all I have today. Do you have any more thoughts to wrap up our positive eating and how to address the quote unquote picky eaters that we're not saying that, but that's the label that people tend to use. Christiana Cortina: I do not, I mean obviously I could say a million things, but nothing that comes to my mind. I am excited to walk away with a recipe from you and make it for next time. Chef Mark: Okay, I got the recipe on my mind right now, and I'm gonna have you make a very, very simple five ingredient salsa that's all green things. So it's salsa verde, green salsa, and it's gonna be made with tomatillos as the main ingredient. Have you ever used those before? Okay, this should be really easy and fun. and one Caveat that I'll mention about there's peppers involved, and so for kids I've been adding the green pepper flavor that usually would come from jalapeños or serranos in maybe a taqueria version of this salsa. I did an experiment a while ago just adding green bell peppers to add that kind of flavor without any spice or even exposure to the spiciness from the seeds, and it turned out really great. So you have an opportunity to choose what you want for spice level. You can use whole chilies with every all the seeds and everything in there to get a lot of spice. or you can surgically carve out the white little parts that hold in the seeds, which is here's our fun fact of the day. That's where all the spice in chili peppers comes from. It's not the seeds themselves, but the ribs that hold the seeds in place. So if you could Christiana Cortina: Ooh, I didn't know that. Chef Mark: So you can actually turn the heat down all the way almost to zero on like a Serrano or a jalapeño if you've like I said almost surgically very very be very careful and get all of the white stuff out of the pepper leave just the green then you're good to go. Christiana Cortina: I'm so excited. I'm looking forward to it. Chef Mark: It should take no more than ten minutes to put together and just throw in a blender, and the result is outrageously delicious. Christiana Cortina: Okay, yay. I'm looking forward to it and I love a quick recipe. Chef Mark: And it could be used for dipping chips into or putting on tacos or burritos or anything else that you could dream up. In even right now I'm having a brainstorm because we talked about pasta. I think I might want to try making some sort of salsa verde pasta. Christiana Cortina: Ooh that sounds good. You have to tell me how that goes, 'cause I'm a big pasta girl. Chef Mark: Yeah, that's gonna be a whole brainstorm today. I gotta figure out what I wanna do with that, but that feels like it could really work. Christiana Cortina: Okay, cool. I'm gonna let you know. I I'm assuming I'm gonna use chips, but we'll see. Maybe I'll get creative, so Chef Mark: Okay, cool. We'll have that in the show notes for people to try as well. And until next time, thanks for joining us today. And we will see you at the kids menu. Christiana Cortina: See ya next time. Chef Mark: But see you next time. That's fine. We can we can we can