Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1189 - Sleep Myths Busted: A Doctor's View

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#1189 - Sleep Myths Busted: A Doctor's View · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:05
Speaker 1: When parents ask me how they can be better parents,
0:09
Speaker 1: I have one non psychological answer that I think matters
0:12
Speaker 1: more than any other answer, and it's this, get enough sleep.
0:19
Speaker 1: Have you noticed that you're a lousy parent when you're tired,
0:22
Speaker 1: but when you've had enough sleep? And I know sometimes
0:24
Speaker 1: it feels like that was a long time ago, but
0:26
Speaker 1: when you've had enough sleep, it's amazing how good you are,
0:30
Speaker 1: how good you feel, how patient you are, how regulated
0:32
Speaker 1: you are. Hello and welcome to the Happy Families Podcast,
0:35
Speaker 1: the Real Parenting Solutions every day on Australia's most downloaded
0:39
Speaker 1: parenting podcast. My name is doctor Justin Coulson, and today
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Speaker 1: I am joined by sleep specialist extraordinaire, Doctor Moya Vandelur
0:48
Speaker 1: is a respiratory and sleep specialist at the Royal Children's
0:51
Speaker 1: Hospital in Melbourne. We've got some results from the latest
0:54
Speaker 1: children's health poll that comes out of the RCH and
0:57
Speaker 1: we're going to discuss sleep today. Not so much your sleep,
1:02
Speaker 1: although that might come up, but absolutely your beliefs about
1:07
Speaker 1: your children's sleep and how that works out for them.
1:11
Speaker 1: Doctor Moyer, I'm so glad you're joining me. Thank you
1:13
Speaker 1: for being here, Thanks.
1:14
Speaker 2: For inviting me. Justin I love talking about sleep, so
1:17
Speaker 2: I'm in the right place.
1:19
Speaker 1: It's one of those things where you talk about sleep
1:21
Speaker 1: and the obvious joke is I hope I don't put
1:23
Speaker 1: you to sleep, but I find sleep fascinating. Like I
1:26
Speaker 1: can't wait for our discussion. I've been looking forward to
1:28
Speaker 1: this for a few days since we booked it in.
1:30
Speaker 1: Before we kick off, though, I want to do something
1:32
Speaker 1: a bit unusual, just to make sure everyone is fully awake.
1:35
Speaker 1: I've put together a list of common ideas about sleep.
1:39
Speaker 1: Some of them are true, some of them are false.
1:41
Speaker 1: Some of them you'll just say absolutely yes, others are
1:43
Speaker 1: completely no. I know that a couple of them are
1:45
Speaker 1: a little bit murky, but I'd like to start with
1:47
Speaker 1: a quick game. We're not going to hold you up
1:50
Speaker 1: to any kind of horrendous academic scrutiny here. We're just
1:53
Speaker 1: looking for what's useful for parents to know. I'm going
1:56
Speaker 1: to give you a couple of passes. So it's a
1:57
Speaker 1: lightning rat. It's just yes or no, true or false.
1:59
Speaker 1: But if you really do have to elaborate, we'll let
2:02
Speaker 1: you do that on two. We can come back to
2:04
Speaker 1: others later in the conversation. If that's Okay, does that
2:07
Speaker 1: sound horribly unfair.
2:09
Speaker 2: Very unfair, But let's know it all right.
2:12
Speaker 1: Number one tru or false. Teens who can't get up
2:14
Speaker 1: for school are just being lazy.
2:17
Speaker 2: One false.
2:18
Speaker 1: Oh that was that was much stronger than I thought.
2:20
Speaker 1: Next one, A child who reads on a tablet before
2:23
Speaker 1: bed gets the same quality of sleep as one who's
2:26
Speaker 1: reading a physical book.
2:28
Speaker 2: False.
2:29
Speaker 1: Huh. Teens naturally need much less sleep than primary school children.
2:35
Speaker 2: Not much less, but yes, less sleep. Okay, that was
2:40
Speaker 2: a little bit of a politician's answer, wasn't it.
2:42
Speaker 1: What I heard was teens don't need as much sleep
2:45
Speaker 1: as primary school age children as a general rule, is
2:46
Speaker 1: what I heard?
2:47
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, okay.
2:49
Speaker 1: Kids can catch up on last sleep during the weekend.
2:52
Speaker 2: They can, but it's not effective in a long term.
2:56
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, I'll take that as a year. Nah's later.
3:00
Speaker 1: That's a really Australian phrase. Yeah nah, here's an X
3:04
Speaker 1: one exercise right before bedtime helps children sleep better. No false,
3:11
Speaker 1: So my wife has been right. Don't roll the kids
3:14
Speaker 1: up before bed.
3:15
Speaker 2: Your wife is the expert.
3:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, all right, Keeping a consistent bedtime only matters
3:20
Speaker 1: on school night. It's true or false?
3:22
Speaker 2: False?
3:22
Speaker 1: Screen time before bed can help kids to wind down.
3:26
Speaker 2: Else.
3:27
Speaker 1: I love the way you We're not videoing this, but
3:31
Speaker 1: the look on your face as you it was this
3:33
Speaker 1: disapproving stare down the camera like can we please?
3:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, my poker face isn't working too well at all.
3:40
Speaker 1: All right, I have two more. Warm milk before bed
3:44
Speaker 1: is scientifically proven to help kids sleep.
3:48
Speaker 2: I haven't looked at the evidence on this recently. You
3:50
Speaker 2: might have got me there justin I don't know about
3:52
Speaker 2: the science.
3:53
Speaker 1: But my grandma, Oh, my grandma was a big believer
3:57
Speaker 1: in the warm milk before bed to settle the tummy
4:00
Speaker 1: and get the kids asleep.
4:01
Speaker 2: Well, she might be onto something. As long as you
4:04
Speaker 2: warn a bed wetter, maybe it was helpful.
4:08
Speaker 1: All right, here's the last one. Children who share a
4:11
Speaker 1: room typically have worse sleep.
4:14
Speaker 2: Quality, not always. Okay, I'll pass on that one.
4:19
Speaker 1: Okay.
4:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can talk about the you know, the importance
4:22
Speaker 2: of a healthy or sort of optimal sleep environment later,
4:28
Speaker 2: I guess. But I would say there's no hard and
4:31
Speaker 2: fast rule about that.
4:32
Speaker 1: Interesting. I thought i'd throw that one in there because
4:36
Speaker 1: the concept of a sleep divorce for adults has become
4:38
Speaker 1: quite popular in recent years. That is you can stay married,
4:41
Speaker 1: but just sleep in different rooms, because the quality of
4:43
Speaker 1: your sleep is better when you're not sharing the bed.
4:45
Speaker 1: And I thought, I wonder if kids. I know that
4:48
Speaker 1: when my kids share room, which we live in a
4:50
Speaker 1: fairly modest home on the Sunshine Coast because it's a
4:53
Speaker 1: pricey place to live, and we've got kids that are
4:56
Speaker 1: sharing rooms, and we find that they go to sleep
4:58
Speaker 1: much later, but they still seem to sleep pretty well.
5:01
Speaker 2: Look, we know that a dark, quiet room will help
5:05
Speaker 2: with sleep. I guess if one of your children was
5:08
Speaker 2: really noisy and snoring or sleep talking, they might interfere
5:12
Speaker 2: with the sleep of the other. But I mean, generally speaking,
5:16
Speaker 2: they're no hard and fast rules. And I think if
5:20
Speaker 2: you have a good sleep routine for both children, and
5:24
Speaker 2: obviously there's a dynamic between the two kids, and that
5:27
Speaker 2: might change with age as well. But I mean, I
5:30
Speaker 2: certainly wouldn't commit to saying that kids sharing a room
5:33
Speaker 2: is a bad or necessarily a good thing. I think
5:36
Speaker 2: in my experience looking after you kids with sleep problems,
5:41
Speaker 2: there are some children that probably do better actually sharing
5:44
Speaker 2: a room. So kids that have you know, anxiety, a
5:47
Speaker 2: sort of separation anxiety, they might do better with the
5:49
Speaker 2: sibling sleeping in their room. No hard and fast thrills
5:53
Speaker 2: about that one.
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Speaker 1: What I do know is that parents who share a
5:56
Speaker 1: room with a bed with a toddler do not get
5:58
Speaker 1: any sleep at all.
6:01
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, well, I mean babies, babies and toddlers. Well,
6:05
Speaker 2: toddlers are very restless, so we know that with aged
6:08
Speaker 2: a toddler compared to an adolescent, is going to naturally
6:10
Speaker 2: and normally move around a lot more during sleep. So yeah,
6:15
Speaker 2: for lots of reasons. Probably I can understand why you
6:18
Speaker 2: wouldn't be getting much sleep with the toddler.
6:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, starfish, that's their favorite post Starfish. While I sleep,
6:23
Speaker 1: just arms and legs out as much as they can. Okay,
6:26
Speaker 1: thanks for humoring me with some fun questions. Let's stad
6:28
Speaker 1: into I guess a broader and deeper discussion about sleep.
6:33
Speaker 1: Can you explain what the recommended amount of sleep is
6:37
Speaker 1: for different age groups, starting with our youngest kids going
6:40
Speaker 1: right through to later adolescents. But to kick that off,
6:44
Speaker 1: I guess there's going to be some caveats, right, we're
6:47
Speaker 1: talking about averages here, So what do we need to
6:50
Speaker 1: know when it comes to how much sleep kids need?
6:54
Speaker 2: So, look, that is an important question. I guess the
6:57
Speaker 2: caveat I should probably start with the caveatchoo is that
7:00
Speaker 2: every individual there are Whilst there are guidances or guidelines
7:04
Speaker 2: around how much sleep children need, it really is an
7:10
Speaker 2: individual thing. So I guess what I mean by that
7:14
Speaker 2: is that one child, you know, might be getting the
7:17
Speaker 2: recommended amount of sleep as per the guidelines, Whereas if
7:22
Speaker 2: you find that your child is tired, then I'd probably
7:25
Speaker 2: recommend that you try and extend their sleep with an
7:27
Speaker 2: earlier bedtime. Does that make Does that make sense? Yeah?
7:31
Speaker 1: Of course, yeah, I mean yeah, this is one of
7:33
Speaker 1: those things as well where I think most parents just say,
7:35
Speaker 1: got a bit because you're tired, and when you wake
7:37
Speaker 1: up in the morning, we'll get things going. So, doctor Moyer,
7:40
Speaker 1: how much sleep should our kids be getting? Let's just
7:42
Speaker 1: start with the toddlers.
7:44
Speaker 2: Okay, So justin that is a really important question, I
7:48
Speaker 2: should start really by saying that every child needs a
7:50
Speaker 2: different amount of sleep, and obviously that changes as they age.
7:56
Speaker 2: As a guide for toddlers, so from age one to
8:00
Speaker 2: three years, we would recommend twelve to fourteen hours, right, And.
8:05
Speaker 1: That's in a twenty four hour period, isn't It's not
8:07
Speaker 1: like it's forty hours at not because toddlers often have
8:10
Speaker 1: a daytime nap.
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Speaker 2: That's really important to remember exactly. It's a twenty four
8:15
Speaker 2: hour period, so twelve to fourteen hours in twenty four
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Speaker 2: I should really explain a little further though, when we
8:23
Speaker 2: talk about recommended hours of sleep, if your child is
8:27
Speaker 2: getting the recommended hours of sleep and still seems tied,
8:31
Speaker 2: or you know, there are behaviors that you think might
8:34
Speaker 2: be in the setting of not getting enough sleep, it's
8:38
Speaker 2: important to keep in mind that we all have different
8:41
Speaker 2: sleep needs. So trying to extend the amount of sleep
8:44
Speaker 2: your child's getting and seeing if it makes a difference,
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Speaker 2: it would definitely be worthwhile.
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Speaker 1: And I guess the inverse would be true as well.
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Speaker 1: If you're trying to get them to go to sleep
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Speaker 1: and they won't and then they still wake up energized
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Speaker 1: even though they had less sleep than you think, and
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Speaker 1: that's a consistent pattern, then maybe they don't need that
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Speaker 1: twelve to fourteen They need eleven to twelve.
9:03
Speaker 2: Yeah. Correct. When we think about getting enough sleep for
9:06
Speaker 2: your child, well, there's three things that make up healthy sleep.
9:10
Speaker 2: One of them is getting enough sleep. And as we've
9:14
Speaker 2: just said that there might be slight, you know, variations
9:16
Speaker 2: between individuals for how much they need. The other is
9:20
Speaker 2: the quality of their sleep, so that they're sleeping through
9:23
Speaker 2: that they don't have any sort of issues that are
9:25
Speaker 2: interfering with their sleep quality like snoring and sleep happen now.
9:29
Speaker 2: And then the third thing that we know contributes to
9:32
Speaker 2: healthy sleep is a regular sleep pattern, so regular bedtime
9:37
Speaker 2: and regular amounts of sleep. So they're the sort of
9:41
Speaker 2: three things that are important to think about with healthy sleep.
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Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, we're going to come back to some of
9:47
Speaker 1: that a little bit later. Yeah, let's move the preschoolers
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Speaker 1: on average, assuming that the quality is decent. We've got
9:52
Speaker 1: a decent pattern in twenty four hour period for our
9:54
Speaker 1: three to five year olds, what should we be usually
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Speaker 1: looking at? Something in the ballpark?
9:58
Speaker 2: Off, it's a little bit less, so ten to twelve
10:01
Speaker 2: hours for that sort of preschool three to six year
10:04
Speaker 2: age gree okay.
10:05
Speaker 1: And then as we move into middle childhood kids between
10:08
Speaker 1: let's say primary school age five to twelve.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so ten to eleven hours.
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Speaker 1: So that's interesting because the preschool was right through to
10:16
Speaker 1: about that early adolescent period sort of hovers around that
10:20
Speaker 1: ten to twelve hour range ish, so there's a lot
10:23
Speaker 1: of obviously a lot of variability. Teenagers we talked about
10:26
Speaker 1: this with my lightning round question. You said that they
10:29
Speaker 1: do need less sleep than the little kids.
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Speaker 2: Where do we land here, So for teenage kids high
10:37
Speaker 2: school thirteen to eighteen years, we'd say eight to ten hours.
10:41
Speaker 2: This is a bit interesting, actually, because we recommend eight
10:44
Speaker 2: to ten but more recently there's some research that's come
10:48
Speaker 2: out in favor of sort of more nine plus hours
10:52
Speaker 2: of sleep. I guess it all just comes back for
10:55
Speaker 2: the child and whether they're rested with that amount of sleep.
10:59
Speaker 1: Okay, question for you. That is the source of a
11:03
Speaker 1: little bit of conflict in my home. So I'm currently
11:05
Speaker 1: currently raising my fifth fourteen year old daughter. We have
11:10
Speaker 1: six daughters. We've our Our youngest is turning eleven soon and
11:14
Speaker 1: she will be my final teenager I'll ever have to raise.
11:17
Speaker 1: And it's been a delight for the most part, but
11:19
Speaker 1: every now and again it's tricky, as you can imagine,
11:22
Speaker 1: and a source of ongoing frustration is that the kids
11:24
Speaker 1: do get enough sleep during the week, that is, they're
11:26
Speaker 1: having appropriate amounts somewhere around about ten hours a night,
11:30
Speaker 1: sometimes a fraction less. Usually about right though, But on
11:34
Speaker 1: weekends they just don't want to get out of bed
11:38
Speaker 1: and they're happy to sleep for fourteen hours. Geez, you've
11:42
Speaker 1: talked about sleep patterns. What is this doing to them?
11:47
Speaker 1: If anything? Is it good? Do they need to have
11:50
Speaker 1: that catch up sleep? Or Am I right? And they
11:52
Speaker 1: should be getting out of bed first thing in the morning,
11:54
Speaker 1: coming down to the beach with me for a walk
11:56
Speaker 1: along the beach, to swim in the ocean, getting a
11:58
Speaker 1: little bit of that Andrew Schuberman, sunlight hitting them as
12:01
Speaker 1: soon as the sun comes over the horizon. Am I
12:04
Speaker 1: two fall on here? Should I just let them sleep
12:06
Speaker 1: in on the weekend because they're teenagers, which is what
12:09
Speaker 1: I am doing at the moment.
12:10
Speaker 2: If I'm honest, look, you're probably well, there's always there's caveats,
12:15
Speaker 2: but you're probably doing the right thing in the sense
12:17
Speaker 2: that I would say to parents that any sleep is
12:20
Speaker 2: good sleep. Although you know, so sleep is good all right.
12:24
Speaker 1: As a parent, I definitely do agree with that.
12:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for the teenager. So for your daughters,
12:31
Speaker 2: if they are well rested during the week, they're able
12:35
Speaker 2: to concentrate at school that get up in the morning,
12:38
Speaker 2: they're not sort of really grumpy and tired, they're not
12:41
Speaker 2: having afternoon sleeps, they're you know, you feel convinced, and
12:44
Speaker 2: they report that they're pretty rested and they're not having
12:48
Speaker 2: trouble getting to sleep during the week then asleep in
12:52
Speaker 2: on the weekend. There's no issue with that, I guess.
12:55
Speaker 2: The question is why are they needing that sleep? Because
12:57
Speaker 2: your daughters because.
12:58
Speaker 1: They're lazy, because they well, so I think, yeah, it's
13:04
Speaker 1: important to.
13:05
Speaker 2: Try and understand or to think about this a bit,
13:07
Speaker 2: because I would say, and you know your daughter's will aside,
13:12
Speaker 2: but if you're getting fourteen hours sleep on the way,
13:15
Speaker 2: if you're needing fourteen hours on the weekend, is there
13:18
Speaker 2: a reason for that? Does that mean that they really
13:20
Speaker 2: are catching up on sleep? Because the idea of catch
13:23
Speaker 2: up sleep is that you're not getting enough sleep during
13:26
Speaker 2: the week. So I'd be less surprised if you told
13:29
Speaker 2: me that your daughters were getting seven hours of sleep
13:32
Speaker 2: generally during the week and then needed that extra sleep
13:35
Speaker 2: on the weekend, because generally catch up sleep is exactly
13:37
Speaker 2: that they're making up for some sort of deficit. So
13:40
Speaker 2: whenever parents tell me that their child is having difficulty
13:44
Speaker 2: getting up in the morning, rather than thinking about or
13:48
Speaker 2: rather than you know, jumping to the conclusion that they're lazy,
13:51
Speaker 2: I'd be more curious about how much sleep they're getting
13:54
Speaker 2: and is the sleep good quality. So my first thought
13:56
Speaker 2: about a teenager who doesn't want to get up in
13:58
Speaker 2: the morning is that because they haven't had a good
14:02
Speaker 2: night sleep. Is that because they're chronically sleep deprived? I
14:05
Speaker 2: guess the other thing is, you know, there's a difference
14:08
Speaker 2: between genuinely sleeping in till ten eleven twelve o'clock and
14:13
Speaker 2: lying in bed looking at your smartphone, you know, texting
14:17
Speaker 2: with friends and having a good time.
14:19
Speaker 1: So there could be a little bit of I mean,
14:22
Speaker 1: there's no phones in our bedrooms apparently, but there might
14:24
Speaker 1: be a little bit of that game.
14:25
Speaker 2: It might be a bit of.
14:34
Speaker 1: Doctor moy Vandeler from the Royal Children's Hospital in Melbourne,
14:37
Speaker 1: I have a question for you about physical activity and
14:43
Speaker 1: sleep data from around this nation. Unfortunately highlights that our
14:47
Speaker 1: children are simply not moving their bodies. Certainly not like
14:51
Speaker 1: we did ten twenty forty years ago. Physical activity rates
14:56
Speaker 1: have dropped through the floor relative to where they've been historically.
15:00
Speaker 1: Certainly neither adults nor children on average. You're getting the
15:05
Speaker 1: minimum daily requirement of physical activity. Surely that's impacting sleep.
15:10
Speaker 2: Absolutely, So we know that regular exercise really sets your
15:16
Speaker 2: children up for a good night sleep, and it's so important.
15:19
Speaker 2: I guess what we also know or the caveat I'm
15:22
Speaker 2: full of caveats today, is that vigorous activity or vigorous
15:27
Speaker 2: exercise in the hour before sleep, it can be stimulating
15:31
Speaker 2: or arousing, and so that isn't good for sleep. But
15:35
Speaker 2: daily regular physical activity, whatever your child enjoys, is really
15:41
Speaker 2: a benefit to set you up for a good night sleep.
15:43
Speaker 1: Let's talk about sleep patterns then, because this is something
15:46
Speaker 1: that you high loted before. You said, you know that
15:48
Speaker 1: you've got a sleep problem if there's an issue with
15:51
Speaker 1: the quantity of sleep, the quality of sleep, or the
15:53
Speaker 1: pattern of sleep. And when you talk about sleep patterns,
15:56
Speaker 1: you're talking about consistent bedtimes, consistent wake up times. That
15:59
Speaker 1: the that sleep routine. So the child health pole that
16:05
Speaker 1: has just had results come through shows that and this
16:09
Speaker 1: really blew me away. Forty two percent of children have
16:14
Speaker 1: problems with their sleep patterns. What does that tell you?
16:19
Speaker 2: We were surprised too, you know, I mean for me
16:21
Speaker 2: working in sleep clinic, these are the kids I see
16:24
Speaker 2: I see kids with issues with their sleep, whether it's
16:27
Speaker 2: falling asleep, staying asleep, being tired, not getting good sleep.
16:32
Speaker 2: Kids with sleep hap now, But I was really interested
16:36
Speaker 2: in the results as well, because that's almost half.
16:39
Speaker 1: That's massive, and.
16:42
Speaker 2: I guess we you know, if you look at the
16:47
Speaker 2: studies from around the world, we know that about a
16:50
Speaker 2: third of school age children have some sort of behavioral
16:55
Speaker 2: sleep issue. So I guess in terms of, you know,
16:57
Speaker 2: an issue with their sleep pattern, it was sort of
16:59
Speaker 2: high than we expected. But it's interesting, and I guess
17:03
Speaker 2: the purpose to the poll was then to better understand
17:07
Speaker 2: what sort of issues were contributing to those problems with
17:11
Speaker 2: sleep pattern.
17:12
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go a little bit deeper here. Why is
17:16
Speaker 1: the problem there? And maybe I can tap into what
17:20
Speaker 1: you've highlighted in the research that was done by the RCH.
17:24
Speaker 1: The study revealed that children who use screens before better
17:27
Speaker 1: twice as likely to have difficulties sleeping. And yet you
17:30
Speaker 1: also found this was another statistic that staggered me, in
17:34
Speaker 1: spite of all of the work that I've been doing,
17:37
Speaker 1: Doctor Moyer. Forty seven percent of parents believe that screen
17:40
Speaker 1: time helps kids wind down. So what I'd like to
17:45
Speaker 1: understand is why why do so many parents think that?
17:50
Speaker 1: I mean, this is half of parents that you were
17:52
Speaker 1: surveying across a general part of the population. Why do
17:55
Speaker 1: half parents believe that screen time helps kids wind down?
17:58
Speaker 1: Is it because they sit on the couch and watch
18:00
Speaker 1: TV at night and they feel like that's helping them
18:03
Speaker 1: to wind down or is there something else going on?
18:05
Speaker 1: This seems going to me.
18:08
Speaker 2: The pole results were really interesting because it highlighted a
18:10
Speaker 2: lot of those mythbeliefs about what is helpful for sleep.
18:15
Speaker 2: So you mentioned, you know, a high rate of parents
18:18
Speaker 2: reporting that they thought that screens were part of a
18:22
Speaker 2: winddown routine, And there were other things as well that
18:25
Speaker 2: were surprising to us, for instance, that you know, the
18:27
Speaker 2: majority of parents, or the majority of children, or a
18:32
Speaker 2: substantial number of children rather had difficulty getting off to
18:36
Speaker 2: sleep and didn't have regular bedtimes. But in terms of
18:40
Speaker 2: your question about why, I think you could be right.
18:43
Speaker 2: I think it could be that perhaps parents associate their
18:47
Speaker 2: own screen time sitting in front of the TV and
18:51
Speaker 2: enjoying a movie or a program before bed as being
18:53
Speaker 2: a typical windown thing, and that somehow that translates or
18:57
Speaker 2: is similar to a child on their phone or their
19:00
Speaker 2: device or watching TV before bed. I mean, there's a
19:05
Speaker 2: lot in the media about the growth in sort of
19:11
Speaker 2: screen use amongst young people, and I guess the thing
19:14
Speaker 2: about using different screens, particularly for teenagers, is that they're
19:19
Speaker 2: generally introduced as an education tool, you know, so there
19:23
Speaker 2: are benefits to our young people having screen access. But
19:28
Speaker 2: I think what we know as fleet specialists is that
19:33
Speaker 2: the light, the blue light that's emitted from screens, really
19:39
Speaker 2: can make it problematic to falling asleep because that light
19:43
Speaker 2: switches off the release of our sleepy hormone, which is
19:47
Speaker 2: called melatonin, And so any sort of exposure to screens
19:52
Speaker 2: in that sort of blue light that comes from phones
19:55
Speaker 2: and iPads video games can reduce the melatonin secretion and
19:59
Speaker 2: make it difficult to fall asleep. I guess the other
20:02
Speaker 2: thing relates not only to that sort of more physiological
20:07
Speaker 2: effective screens, but also the fact the content of what
20:10
Speaker 2: you're watching is important to so kids that are on
20:15
Speaker 2: phones and iPads, you know, engaging with friends. That sort
20:18
Speaker 2: of interaction can be quite stimulating and really doesn't set
20:22
Speaker 2: you up for that wind down period before bed. I
20:26
Speaker 2: guess the noise and the light that comes from phones
20:29
Speaker 2: is another reason why we think that why we think
20:32
Speaker 2: having screens at their time and overnight isn't a great idea.
20:36
Speaker 2: But to look back to the question you ask me,
20:39
Speaker 2: which is why do parents think that we sort of
20:41
Speaker 2: think about where do we get our information from. We
20:43
Speaker 2: don't have children and get some sort of little booklet
20:47
Speaker 2: on all the things to do with child health and parenting,
20:51
Speaker 2: and so, I mean, people get the information from lots
20:53
Speaker 2: of different sources. And you know, most parents are just
20:56
Speaker 2: trying to obviously do the best they can with their kids.
21:00
Speaker 2: But I guess what the poll really revealed is that
21:04
Speaker 2: there's a lot of misconceptions about sleep, and some of
21:08
Speaker 2: those misconceptions can lead to behaviors and sleep that set
21:11
Speaker 2: them up, I mean, in children, that set them up
21:13
Speaker 2: to have an issue with their sleep.
21:17
Speaker 1: I feel like screens are really at the core of
21:19
Speaker 1: everything else that you found. Yeah, I mean another stat
21:23
Speaker 1: that came out of it. You found that teens sleep
21:24
Speaker 1: patterns are dramatically different from younger kids. Forty one percent
21:27
Speaker 1: of teens feel tight in the morning compared to twenty
21:29
Speaker 1: seven percent of younger kids. I'd note that you didn't
21:31
Speaker 1: ask parents because you would have found that ninety nine
21:33
Speaker 1: point nine percent of parents feel tight in the morning.
21:37
Speaker 1: But maybe let's go a little bit deeper here, if
21:39
Speaker 1: we can stand outside of the screen issue. Clearly, teens
21:41
Speaker 1: are much more likely to be on a screen at
21:43
Speaker 1: night than younger children. There are other biological factors here, though,
21:50
Speaker 1: aren't there, Like the adolescent hormonal and neurological architecture is
21:56
Speaker 1: different for younger children, and that has some impact on sleep.
22:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, correct, So I mean it's a normal part of
22:04
Speaker 2: teenage development that there's changes in hormones. And I think
22:11
Speaker 2: it's very normal and natural that there are changes in
22:14
Speaker 2: our body clock, or changes in the body clock of teenagers,
22:18
Speaker 2: and that's circadian body clock, if you like. That directs
22:22
Speaker 2: all sorts of activities within the body, and one of
22:25
Speaker 2: them is sleep. And what happens for teenagers is that
22:29
Speaker 2: naturally they want to stay up later and they want
22:32
Speaker 2: to sleep in later. So it's part of healthy, normal
22:36
Speaker 2: teenage development that teenagers are going to want to stay
22:39
Speaker 2: awake later than their younger siblings.
22:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a source of great stress and struggle for
22:45
Speaker 1: any parent of a teenager because there's this thing you
22:48
Speaker 1: get used to the kids for the first ten twelve
22:51
Speaker 1: years of life. You put the kids to bed, and
22:53
Speaker 1: then you go and have adult time because the kids
22:55
Speaker 1: have gone to bed. I mean, it's wonderful when they
22:57
Speaker 1: go to bed at six or six thirty, and as
22:59
Speaker 1: they get older, it gets verily later until it's seven
23:01
Speaker 1: and seven thirty and eight o'clock, and then they kind
23:03
Speaker 1: of hit thirteen fourteen, and by then you're older as
23:07
Speaker 1: well as an adult, and you kind of you're already
23:09
Speaker 1: forbett at about five thirty, let's be honest, but you
23:13
Speaker 1: push through because the kids. We got to a point,
23:16
Speaker 1: as I'm sure any parent of older adolescents has, where
23:19
Speaker 1: we say good night to the kids and then we
23:21
Speaker 1: go to bed and close the door and they just
23:22
Speaker 1: put themselves a bit because we can't stay up any later.
23:26
Speaker 1: This is a really common challenge that parents have. You
23:30
Speaker 1: so like, promise you're going to go to bed by
23:31
Speaker 1: nine thirty, because it's nine o'clock and I am tapping out.
23:34
Speaker 1: I'm done, yea moya. Let's sort of move towards a
23:39
Speaker 1: couple of conversation points that have been quite striking for me.
23:45
Speaker 1: I'm not a caffeine consumer myself, so I only drink water.
23:49
Speaker 1: That's one of my personal health rules. I just have
23:52
Speaker 1: a thing. I'm not going to consume my calories in
23:56
Speaker 1: my fluids. I want to eat my calories, not drink them,
23:58
Speaker 1: so I only drink water. However, lots of people love
24:02
Speaker 1: their coffees. Your research has shown a strong connection between
24:07
Speaker 1: caffeine consumption that happens after lunch and sleep difficulties. And
24:13
Speaker 1: we know that many parents, as the kids move into
24:16
Speaker 1: their mid and late teens, are increasingly comfortable with their
24:20
Speaker 1: kids drinking coffees. What's your advice around that?
24:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you're right, So, I mean, so firstly, I
24:31
Speaker 2: guess what the poll data showed was at about ten
24:34
Speaker 2: I think it might have been eleven percent of children
24:38
Speaker 2: are consuming caffeine containing products regularly during the week. And
24:43
Speaker 2: I guess that's so. You mentioned coffee, and coffee is
24:47
Speaker 2: the obviously.
24:48
Speaker 1: The energy drinks as well.
24:49
Speaker 2: I guess that's right. So, I mean energy drinks that
24:52
Speaker 2: contain caffeine. There's lots of sort of new sort of
24:56
Speaker 2: more well, I think they're being marketed as sort of healthy,
25:00
Speaker 2: and it is to a coffee like Matcher or green Tea,
25:04
Speaker 2: you know that are not only well that are found
25:07
Speaker 2: those sorts of flavors as well, found and lots of products, chocolate,
25:10
Speaker 2: all sorts of things that contain caffeine. So I guess
25:14
Speaker 2: what we know is that caffeine takes about six hours.
25:19
Speaker 2: Well it's active in your system for about six hours.
25:22
Speaker 2: So the first thing to say really is that if
25:23
Speaker 2: your child is having issues falling asleep, and if your
25:28
Speaker 2: child is consuming caffeine containing products, it would be worth
25:32
Speaker 2: looking at the timing of those of eating and drinking
25:36
Speaker 2: those products, because having them before lunch is probably going
25:39
Speaker 2: to have less impact on their sleep. I think the
25:43
Speaker 2: key thing though, is probably awareness that there are many
25:46
Speaker 2: things that you wouldn't think contain caffeine that do. I
25:50
Speaker 2: think that's probably one of the issues here. And if
25:53
Speaker 2: you look at energy drinks for instance, some of them
25:55
Speaker 2: have caffeine and some of them do not have caffeine.
25:58
Speaker 2: So I think the interesting thing to think about the
26:01
Speaker 2: teenagers and energy drinks is why are they drinking those?
26:06
Speaker 2: And is it a bit off? I was going to ask,
26:08
Speaker 2: you know, bi directional? Is it that you know they're tired,
26:12
Speaker 2: so they're consuming them and they're drinking caffeine and that's contributing.
26:16
Speaker 2: It may be the case or it may just be
26:18
Speaker 2: that they enjoy drinking those drinks.
26:20
Speaker 1: I have a provocative question for you around caffeine. I'm
26:24
Speaker 1: a fan of listening to podcasts about health. There's a
26:27
Speaker 1: guy called Steve Bartlett who does the Diary of a CEO,
26:29
Speaker 1: and he's always having the latest health expert on human
26:33
Speaker 1: I mentioned before. Everyone knows that Andrew Hubman's podcast is
26:36
Speaker 1: the world's leading health podcast. And it seems that everyone
26:40
Speaker 1: has a different opinion about caffeine, whether it's beneficial or not.
26:45
Speaker 1: Some people say stay away from it, don't have it
26:47
Speaker 1: at all. Other people say it's the wonder drug and
26:50
Speaker 1: you need more of it in your life. It seems
26:51
Speaker 1: to be a really provocative topic. I'm not asking about
26:54
Speaker 1: adults here. I'm genuinely concerned because I do regularly see
26:58
Speaker 1: parents willingly and joyfully handing caffeine products over to their kids,
27:05
Speaker 1: whether it's on a Saturday morning at sport or wherever
27:09
Speaker 1: it might be. Kids in caffeine, yes or no?
27:13
Speaker 2: I would say no because there are many products. If
27:15
Speaker 2: it's just a sort of about a taste or an experience,
27:18
Speaker 2: and there there's probably an equivalent product that doesn't have
27:22
Speaker 2: caffeine in it. Beyond the impact on sleep, and you know,
27:30
Speaker 2: there's probably at low levels no other negative health impacts
27:36
Speaker 2: of caffeine. But I guess the question is why does
27:38
Speaker 2: a child need to be consuming caffeine? So, I mean
27:42
Speaker 2: that's somewhat of a personal view, I think strictly related
27:45
Speaker 2: to sleep and sleep problems. The key thing is, you know,
27:50
Speaker 2: if a child is having issues falling asleep and you
27:53
Speaker 2: have a look at what they're eating and drinking and
27:55
Speaker 2: there's something caffeine related that as a parent, you think
27:58
Speaker 2: you still want to let your child have, then give
28:01
Speaker 2: it in the morning, not the afternoon. But yeah, I
28:05
Speaker 2: mean it's also I guess it's a cultural thing as well,
28:08
Speaker 2: justin because you know there you know, we think about
28:10
Speaker 2: Italian culture and families that you know, desserts like tiramassou.
28:14
Speaker 2: There's so it's sort of hard to say yes or
28:17
Speaker 2: no when it comes to these sorts of things because
28:20
Speaker 2: I think it's a it's a bit of a personal
28:22
Speaker 2: one for families, and I think a lot of the
28:24
Speaker 2: advice that we give about sleep is really it's very
28:27
Speaker 2: important for families that are struggling with sleep in you know,
28:31
Speaker 2: sleep issues in their child. But again, I guess you
28:34
Speaker 2: asked me about your child who is sleeping on the weekend.
28:36
Speaker 2: You know, if they're otherwise healthy, happy, they're getting enough sleep,
28:40
Speaker 2: probably we tend to not be so concerned about sleeping
28:43
Speaker 2: in so it always comes back to whether there's actually
28:46
Speaker 2: a problem and whether the child and parent are identifying
28:50
Speaker 2: something as a problem.
28:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, eating, you mentioned tramsou. I don't know why I
28:57
Speaker 1: mentioned m Well, it's loaded with and sugar.
29:01
Speaker 3: Yeah.
29:01
Speaker 1: I mean, what I'm really hearing you say is if
29:03
Speaker 1: you want to have a good night's sleep, you want
29:05
Speaker 1: to reduce the things that are going to be stimulatory
29:07
Speaker 1: and that are going to keep you awake. So caffeine
29:09
Speaker 1: and sugar, you probably want to ease off on that
29:11
Speaker 1: and don't load the kids up with a plate full
29:13
Speaker 1: of anything like that when it's around bedtime.
29:17
Speaker 2: I should actually say, one of the other main issues
29:20
Speaker 2: for people in terms of you know, kids or teenagers
29:23
Speaker 2: that have insomnia, is a relationship between having a sleep
29:27
Speaker 2: issue and being anxious or having some sort of problem
29:30
Speaker 2: with you.
29:31
Speaker 3: I was going to ask, and yeah, yeah, well caffeine
29:35
Speaker 3: it might, you know, do a good job at keeping
29:39
Speaker 3: keeping you awake, but can also make people feel anxious,
29:42
Speaker 3: so you know you would wonder whether.
29:45
Speaker 2: Teenagers are more susceptible to those effects as well.
29:49
Speaker 1: Wow. Okay, yeah, great, great advice. Okay, here's my last
29:52
Speaker 1: question for you. A lot of parents will be listening
29:55
Speaker 1: to this and saying, my kids are sleeping. Okay, Every
29:58
Speaker 1: now and again, there's a rough night, but in the
30:00
Speaker 1: main things are okay. Based on all of the research
30:03
Speaker 1: that you've got, and given that we know that sleep
30:06
Speaker 1: is probably one of the most important factors for good health,
30:11
Speaker 1: full stop, period, end of story. What would you say
30:15
Speaker 1: is the single most important change that families could make
30:17
Speaker 1: tonight if they wanted to improve their kids' sleep.
30:21
Speaker 2: I think the wine down the PREBD routine and for
30:25
Speaker 2: that to be a relaxing activity.
30:29
Speaker 1: I'm laughing because I'm so bad at this.
30:32
Speaker 2: Well, I think, you know, having a regular bedtime and
30:36
Speaker 2: getting enough hours of sleep in general, it would be
30:40
Speaker 2: two pieces of gold, I think for most families. And
30:44
Speaker 2: to have a regular bedtime and to get enough sleep,
30:47
Speaker 2: the focus should be on that hour before fleep. That
30:50
Speaker 2: that's doing something whatever it is for your child or
30:53
Speaker 2: your family that is relaxing and sets them up for
30:56
Speaker 2: a good night's sleep. So generally screen free would be
31:01
Speaker 2: you ask for one tip and now I think.
31:05
Speaker 1: Vive. Now here's what I'm hearing. The basics are, get
31:09
Speaker 1: the kids off screens now before bed, have a nice
31:11
Speaker 1: and easy relaxing wine down, get them to go to
31:13
Speaker 1: bed at a consistent time and at a reasonable hour
31:16
Speaker 1: so they can have the quality and the quality that
31:19
Speaker 1: they need. That's what I'm feeling is really at the
31:23
Speaker 1: core of your message.
31:25
Speaker 2: It's really important if a.
31:26
Speaker 1: Parent is worried that the child isn't getting enough sleep.
31:30
Speaker 1: Is it the sort of thing that you just let
31:33
Speaker 1: let nature take its course, like they'll mature through it,
31:36
Speaker 1: they'll be fine. Or do you recommend going and getting
31:38
Speaker 1: some support, some help from a medical practitioner, from a
31:41
Speaker 1: doctor around this.
31:43
Speaker 2: I think that's a really important question. Justin so, if
31:47
Speaker 2: you have done everything you can to try and set
31:51
Speaker 2: up for a regular bedtime, you think that your child
31:55
Speaker 2: is getting enough sleep and they're still tired during the day,
31:57
Speaker 2: or you think there's some behaviors that are aboutness and
32:00
Speaker 2: yet they're getting in our sleep, that would be a
32:04
Speaker 2: reason to go and see your GP. The other thing
32:07
Speaker 2: is if you've tried really hard to try and support
32:09
Speaker 2: your child to get to sleep, and then've got an issue,
32:13
Speaker 2: for instance, with insomnia and really struggling to get off
32:16
Speaker 2: to sleep, there might be something else going on. It's
32:19
Speaker 2: not all necessarily about good sleep hygiene. So for instance,
32:23
Speaker 2: young people with anxiety can certainly have issues with their sleep,
32:29
Speaker 2: and often the way they present is with insomnia. So
32:33
Speaker 2: I think if you're really worried about your child's sleep
32:36
Speaker 2: and you've sort of exhausted all your strategies at home,
32:39
Speaker 2: it's definitely worth going to have a chat to your GP,
32:42
Speaker 2: and you might need a referral to a specialist. I
32:45
Speaker 2: guess the final thing to say is we haven't mentioned snoring,
32:50
Speaker 2: and I'd just like to put a plug in.
32:52
Speaker 1: I guess that put a plug in.
32:56
Speaker 2: That snoring is never regular snoring. So if your child
33:01
Speaker 2: snores more than three nights a week, that's not normal
33:06
Speaker 2: and you should go and have a chat to your
33:08
Speaker 2: GP about it because your child might have issues with sleep.
33:11
Speaker 1: At here, this is such a fascinating conversation. I could
33:14
Speaker 1: talk sleep all day, but our time is well spent.
33:17
Speaker 1: I've been speaking with doctor Moyer Vandler, who is a
33:20
Speaker 1: respiratory and sleep specialist at the Royal Children's Hospital in
33:22
Speaker 1: Melbourne about the Children's Health Pole. We will link to
33:27
Speaker 1: more details about that pole and the findings in the
33:30
Speaker 1: show notes. Doctor Moyert, thank you so much for sharing
33:33
Speaker 1: your time and your expertise on the Happy Families Podcast today.
33:37
Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Justin the g.
33:39
Speaker 1: The Happy Family Podcast is produced by Justin Roland from
33:41
Speaker 1: Bridge Media and if you'd like more information and resources
33:44
Speaker 1: about making your family happier, you'll find them at happy
33:47
Speaker 1: families dot com dot a you