Latest / ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence / How CMOs Can Make Enterprise-Wide Impact | Prof. Venkatesh Shankar | Ep 06

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How CMOs Can Make Enterprise-Wide Impact | Prof. Venkatesh Shankar | Ep 06 · ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: There's all kinds of dire predictions.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Goldman Sachs came out with a very dire warning that close to 300 million jobs may be uh eliminated.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, it's it's probably uh an exaggeration in terms of elimination.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: It may be disrupted, displaced uh into some different degrees.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: But the point is that we are looking into an age where uh generative AI is going to improve productivity, uh uh take over a lot of routinized work, and also even uh impinge on creative work, which used to be the bastion of a lot of marketing, creative talent, you know, creating brand communication, brand positioning, brand uh uh promise.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: All of these things are gonna be challenged, right?
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: So a good CMO has to be futuristic and say, hey, how am I going to use these tools?
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: What is it going to look like?
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: And how do I retool, reorganize, and be prepared for this future.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, Professor Venki.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks a lot, and thanks for being uh guest in the Super CMR show of Contra Minds.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks a lot for your time.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Swami, for inviting me.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: It is great to be on your show, and I'm really looking forward to the conversation with you.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Great, Wenki.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh one thing that I noted as I went uh through your amazing body of work that you've done over so many years.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you have now about more than 25,000 citations uh according to the Google Scholar uh rankings that I saw.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it now stands at 26,000 as of today.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: And uh that's an amazing uh you know recognition to the amount of research and work that you have done.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: And uh having started in IIT Karakpur, moving to IAMC, where did where did this interest for marketing get triggered, Vinki?
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Great question, Swami.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, thank you for your kind words.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I never look at uh uh citations.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when we do research, it is because we are interested, we we are basically passionate, and I'm I'm like that.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I still see myself as a young kid in the uh candy store of all research ideas and research problems, uh managerial issues the companies are facing.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, that has helped me a long way along my journey.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: And back to my uh roots where we started.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: And uh when I went to Ayati Karakpur, uh I was very thrilled because I was amongst uh uh whole bunch of very super smart people, many of them smarter than myself, who from whom I had to learn from, and it was a great opportunity.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so I was focused on learning at that time.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's uh, you know, it invariably happens at the in your final year when everybody has to decide what to do next.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: I had two choices: one to go overseas and pursue engineering or other disciplines, or stay in India and do that.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I did it with both, like many of them may apply to from school.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I had, in fact, uh scholarships to study, pursue structural engineering uh at uh Rice University.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh also I simultaneously I got admitted to uh I am Calcutta.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so I was there in IM Calcutta because it started before before I could even get my visa and so on.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: So Serenipri, you know, it is accidental.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: Once you start, once I went to IM and spent like a month, I really fell in love with management and wanted to do more about business.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so I never looked back after that.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: And during my first year, I was exposed to a number of uh uh not only classes and courses, but you know, we had corporate speakers who used to come and talk about.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I remember uh there were lots of uh visiting uh talks from advertising executives of all the people, and uh that used to fascinate me how um the concept of branding, brand positioning, uh it all started the journey, uh the curiosity started then.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I also started taking classes in finance and systems.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to be an all-round, well-rounded person, but somewhere in the second year it dawned on me that maybe marketing is where my biggest strength would be.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: But strangely enough, I did spend uh a few years at uh HSBC, which is a banking corporation in financial services, but mostly in marketing, a part of it.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I do have the intersection of marketing and finance in my DNA, but more probably you know, customer-oriented, marketing-oriented, that mindset started coming very early.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: So uh that's how my path changed.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: So uh when you look back, uh Wenki, uh who were your mentors who who you remember, who passionately helped you pursue what you really loved uh you are doing right now, and who created that interest in you?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: A great question, too.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh to be honest, uh, you know, I was when I started uh work and when I was working in the industry, although, you know, working for a multinational bank, working in Hong Kong, Bombay, and Delhi was uh exciting, gave me a lot of experience and exposures.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I was never satisfied about lots of questions.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: I I always used to ask questions, why is uh, you know, why is this brand successful?
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: Why is this uh why do customers like this?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: What is why is the business trend going this way?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: What's the impact of technology?
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: And somehow in your day-to-day job, you cannot answer those questions.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I always had that.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: Plus, uh at that time, my older brother uh was a uh faculty in finance.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: So in some respect, um I was very uh fortunate that there was somebody in my family who already had exposure to what the PhD is.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: But um then I started reaching out and saying, what would be uh like if I were to pursue a PhD and a career in research?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: At that time, I remember my brother was uh discouraging me to do because I had already worked a few years in the industry, and he says you have to come back.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: And he was naturally cautioning me, you know, you'll be a poor PhD surrender, you was you'll be having to start all over again.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: But uh but I was, you know, as I said, I was uh ignorant at that time and I was very curious.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I just still wanted to pursue my passion.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I applied to uh the PhD programs.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: And at that time, you know, Phil Cotler was my um role model because I have always we all grew up reading his uh textbooks and his readings.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: And uh when I applied to Northwestern's Kellogg School and got admission, my immediate goal was to work with uh Phil and work under Phil, do some research.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: But then when I got here, I found Phil to be a fantastic human being, great advisor, great mind.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: But he was not working with PhD students because he was past that stage in his life where he was uh more into more thought leadership and so on.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, but that didn't matter because I met uh a lot of exciting other smart people and which who with whom I could work and expand my interests.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, you know, the urge or at that time my role model was Phil Cotler, but then slowly I discovered there are so many smart people that I would like to work with and emulate, and I found a lot of people in the research area.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um of the things uh that I noted very recently uh that you've taken uh responsibility uh is around this whole area of the marketing accountability standards board.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: And uh for me that sounded really interesting because uh I think this is an area that's probably the most important for marketing because a lot of money gets spent uh but there are no standards as uh even after probably you know hundred years of marketing being there, uh, what are the general accepted uh practices for marketing accountability is something that I think sounded very interesting to me.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, can you tell me what is this whole thing around developing marketing accountability standards and uh what's your uh role in actually uh you know building this as a uh platform and how do you see marketers adopting this over the next couple of years?
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Swami, for raising this uh important question.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: You're right that marketing's uh uh criticism of marketing over the years has been that marketing is more to do with spending money, right?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and not being uh fully accountable.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the MASB or the marketing accountability standards board uh was modeled after the FASBI, the financial accounting standards board, which is the equivalent for accountants and finance professionals.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: And there the idea was uh was more of a um uh thought leadership and oversight body for accountability of decisions made in those finance and accounting areas.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, slowly it dawned on a lot of marketers that uh marketers have to come out and become more accountable and responsible for his decisions, um, mainly because you know if you if marketing's impact has to be felt and uh appreciated, uh, especially the suite suite and the board level, uh marketing has to become more quantifiable, accountable, and so on.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so it started in the late 2000s.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: And um I was very fortunate to get this opportunity recently to become the chair of the advisory council.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the whole role of MASB is to basically act as a body which encourages, promotes, and um enables um marketing functions to be performed in a way uh that all the decisions are not only highly accountable, quantifiable, justifiable, and also to elevate the role of the CMO, of the chief marketing officer, uh, in a way that they should be involved in as many decisions and as many interfaces and interaction with the shareholder community as maybe a CFO who is primarily the point person for many of the meetings, because marketing has a very important role to play in uh because it is the function that is accountable for customers, the brand assets, uh, and all of them, and to view it in the same language uh as maybe the the financial professionals and so on.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the last 15 years or so, MASB has got a lot of traction and uh following.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: And my goal as a chair of the advisory council is to bring the best minds together, put them uh into more initiatives where this can spread more.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: And now we are in the age of addressability, uh, targetability, measurability, and uh uh you know, serious accountability.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, with uh all our targeted advertising, targeted um brand measurements, and so on, we're in a better position as a as a functional area or as a practice marketing to do that.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: And this is the time to do that.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: And we are starting a lot of initiatives as part of that.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we are addressing many of these issues and uh doing maybe large-scale projects.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, for example, one of the projects that we finished was on the impact of sponsorship uh and what is the um return on that so that firms can clearly understand.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Now, sponsorship is widespread and prevalent all over the world.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we think about sporting events like IPL, World Cup Soccer, everybody sponsors, but everybody wonders how the sponsorship went.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: And often oftentimes people say soft metrics like, no, we got written up in media, we got so many likes and so on.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: But we are trying to go beyond that to final accountability.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: So that was one.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: And we have again started another initiative where we are trying to look at the uh how you know marketers, especially CPG or consumer package goods or FMCG marketers, um, constantly use a lot of um, you know, advertising, uh targeting using mass media like TV, as well as the digital media.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: And uh one of the questions I asked is do you have the right uh uh, you know, are you are you sure that you're targeting the right people?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: Are you sure that your measurements and metrics are correct?
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so one of the things is we are starting right from the beginning and seeing the data quality, data integrity, and uh, and also the models that are being up covered.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one initiative we are starting.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: We'll also do more initiatives centered around now uh issues of um uh you know using AI and machine learning uh to better assist marketers for more accountable decisions.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the uh the um privacy issues involved, the safety issues involved, all of them we are looking at.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um we're also looking at creativity, how to really quantify marketing creativity.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's also another project that we are taking up.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: So we're in a very exciting time.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: I have to say, Swami, that uh this is a great time for marketers to be in in this emerging world where we have more, much more opportunities to make marketing more accountable.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so Venki, uh, I want to start off uh with this whole thing around marketing accountability that uh you know that you've been uh you know now appointed as a chair in the advisory in uh advisory council.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: But many, many years back, uh you had done some work around do marketing CEOs create more shareholder value?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: You had actually done a fantastic study, I know, uh, from 2004 to 2016, I think, where you looked at fortune-finder companies where you know marketers were CEOs, and uh you actually studied these companies.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so much before uh you know marketing uh you know accountability standards board, I think you started this thinking.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: So uh what are your uh findings and learnings out of it for marketers to get the seat on the table and what should they do?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, great question.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for asking that.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: And uh as you as you rightly said, when we started looking into this uh phenomena where most of the CEOs, right or wrong, you know, people associate them with uh previous erstwhile CFOs or people coming from the finance background or operations background.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um and a lot not much was known about CEOs who had marketing background and how uh impactful they were to the shareholders, right?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um typically people used to say marketing CEOs are people in CPG companies, companies that used to have a lot of advertising budgets and so on.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, I was curious, uh, this is with my former doctoral student Human, and we started looking at it and started uh seeing that first of all, how many CEOs uh have marketed come from marketing background versus others?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh definitely by the time somebody becomes CEO, they have exposure to all the functional areas, but uh there's always a home area that people come from, right?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what we wanted to look at and say the percentage of marketing CEOs and what happens when they become CEOs, what happens to shareholder value compared to when you know CEOs come from other background.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: And what we found was at least in the Fortune 500 or the uh top 1,000 companies in terms of uh sales revenues, um, we found a very, very high correlation of people with marketing CEO background and shareholder value enhancement over a long period of 12 years or 13 years.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so um the idea was to understand, you know, first of all, it's um to discover this and then disseminate that that hey, there is marketing CEOs add value and how we can uh enhance this, right?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: I uh what can um managers and companies create a culture to do that.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was the whole purpose in undertaking the study to really better understand uh if they're similar to other CEOs or if they are they're different about them.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then when we then we started looking at you know what areas or industries they tend to do well and under what conditions and so on.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: So we have some uh additional insights on that.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was a good starting point for us to understand that marketers do play a part in creating value for the shareholders, right?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: So ultimately at the end of the day, it's about value creation and uh value appropriation or uh extraction.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we found that marketers tended to do well on that dimension, um, and not many people knew about that, right?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that that was the starting point.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: So if I were to uh uh you know uh ask you a little bit uh you know deeper into that uh research because it's interesting because many a times this is something that is not normally discussed because you discuss campaigns, you discuss uh you know creativity, you discuss uh all other things in marketing, but literally a CEO uh you know generating shareholder value with a marketing background.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, what do you think they were doing right in your assessment?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: And if a marketer becomes a CEO, uh what would your learnings out of that study be?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: And what do they do, right?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: And what should they be doing if a marketer is appointed a CEO?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great question.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, we are actually continuing the research even as we speak, um, because I think you know, I have to be uh cautious about this.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: We're not saying that CEOs who come from marketing background alone uh tend to do well.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: What I'm trying to say is people with marketing experience.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, in other words, uh the amount of years you've put in as a marketing in the marketing function, better understanding and better doing um in the tasks that you're set out to do.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, what uh would be the effectiveness uh effect of having a uh wider experience to marketing function, right?
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the things we found is that marketing, people with wider exposure to marketing CEOs with uh tend to have um uh higher uh focus on RD.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: So they would be working on products that uh would add value to the customer, even if it takes uh a longer time frame to develop that.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: So they have that longer customer value-adding mindset, right?
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then we also found that they are willing to spend on marketing to create that value.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: So looking at marketing as investments uh to be able to generate long-term value.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think the the exposure to marketing and experienced marketing actually results in a long-term thinking and long-term view and a customer-centric view, which are very important in today's world, uh, an increasing competitive world.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um so, you know, the uh the lessons for firms is that not only you encourage more uh executives of marketing experience up the CEO path, but also give exposure to non-marketing people uh who have the potential to become a CEO who's in the fast track and so on, uh, with a lot of exposure to customers, which marketing uh so that they can get that long-term perspective, uh, the customer-centric perspective that many organizations seem to lack.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one of the things, uh, Swami, you know, is that most of the marketing's people in marketing function, at least uh in the early days, is to do is to they would go a lot of times in the field to the customers and actually live in the customers' shoes to a certain extent, right?
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're a uh CPG marketer, you would go and um spend time in your retailers or distributors or even the end customers' shoes trying to uh understand how it is that they shop.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Similarly, if you're a B2B CEO, you would go and spend time better understanding putting yourself in the shoes.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: And those things are very important because to add value to the customer in the long run, those are very critical.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: And what happens if you're a non marketing person or CEO, you never probably meet customers.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: You never get to understand what goes on in the customer's mindset.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so this is why we feel that marketing has such an intrinsic role to play, marketing experience.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: In creating that mindset for the CEO towards adding shareholder value.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, our research is still going on on this, so we have to we have some more months to do and finish this.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully, these insights will be helpful for firms to create that culture in the organization, to create that fabric in the organization by which more and more people become long-term oriented and shareholder value generator, making marketing's role important and accountable.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think you've given a beautiful canvas of how the skills can be brought to fore for building shareholder value.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: And if a marketing person is out up there, not just have marketing skills, but have, in addition uh to other skills, have the marketing skill, the value uh really gets multiplied, is really what I think you are saying.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Menki, you are also somebody who's worked really, really deep in retail, right?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh, you know, the the body of work that I saw in retail is something amazing.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, you know, you were uh a retail influencer, I think, in 2020 when you were awarded.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so the amount of work that you have done in retail is fairly uh you know deep.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so one of the things that uh uh I read and uh I've been following you on this, is this whole framework that you have on you know big data in retail, right?
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: And uh the effect of big data and therefore uh you know the impact of customer engagement, personalization, omni-channel is something that you've really written and spoken about.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, can you really talk to us about if I were a retailer, uh, you know, how can omnichannel personalization and analytics?
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, you know, you really talk about hindsight, insight, and foresight, right?
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a very interesting concept that you speak about.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: So, can you walk me through what was what's the framework all about?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: And if I were a retailer, how can I use these big data as a concept, AI, ML, uh, and how can I take advantage of how I should be uh leveraging all this data?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's these are an excellent bunch of questions.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and uh this is my passion.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've been very fortunate to be not only working in retail but also technology.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so the confluence of retail and technology is uh shaping, reshaping a lot of the retailing landscape.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, retailing is one-fourth of the GDP of developed countries and developing countries now.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: Retailing is a big source of employment for a lot of people in the economy.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: So it's absolutely vital and fascinating to research retail.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: And what has been the biggest transformation in the last 25 years, ever since, let's say, the uh advent of the internet in the mid-90s and Amazon.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: Amazon is a big game changer.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they change the whole retail experience, how people shop uh forever.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: And uh is data driven.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: And basically the data has only exploded and it's exploding even further, right?
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: As we speak.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Previously, we used to have data on metric data, that's basically point of transaction, point of sale data, um, at best, some uh proprietary data from retail firms by interacting with the customers through the loyalty programs.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: But what has happened in the last few uh 10 years or so, or maybe 15 years, there's been an explosion in unstructured data, right?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: Unstructured data, we are talking about social media conversations, review data.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we're talking about uh not only text data, but we're also talking about images.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh there's all these social media platforms, you know, Instagram, TikTok, all of these things are producing not only static images, but video images, short form videos, long-term videos.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: YouTube is one of the largest uh uh social media platforms with you know reach of 2.5 billion people.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: All of these that exploded in uh unstructured data.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: They have audio data to podcasts like this.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do retailers now start to harness all these data, right?
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: You've got tons of data floating around and they're just going on real time, exploding, right?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, how do you leverage this, harness this data for you to make better decisions to understand how who your customers are going to be for the future, how you're going to target these customers, how do you make value propositions for these customers that are meaningful and resonating for them?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: How do you make sure that you have a business model that actually monetizes the value that you create for the customers?
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what we talk about accountability marketing, right?
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're a retailer, today you have to be thinking very differently.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Previously, the concept of retailing is in-store retailing, personal experiences, right?
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: And don't get me wrong, you know, in-store retailing is still very important.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: Physical brick and mortar is so important.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, one of my recent research, we showed that if you close stores, it has spillover effects on omni-channel, other channels.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: Don't think that, you know, everybody's migrated to online.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: We don't need stores.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: We absolutely need stores.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: But we have to understand in a holistic perspective data.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, their customers are now facing uh all kinds of touch points, devices, they're using devices.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: They want experiences that are seamless, they want experiences that are uh very integrated and synergistic, right?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: So as a retailer, you have to think differently.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: You have to think customer-centric, and you have to start saying that now I have all this data, it helps me to understand what different sets of customers want.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: Down to the level of you mentioned personalization, that's where the machine learning and the AI really come in handy.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: Now we can analyze and we can understand what different customers want.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: We can predict, even, you know, that's what the Netflix and the Amazons of the world are doing.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: They're able to uh proactively anticipate what customers might need, even without customers telling what they want, right?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so that's why you get these recommendations.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: You might like these books, you might like these movies, you might like this Spotify gives you uh choices, all of these things.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: So all of these things are are starting to change the dynamics of retailing.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I'm not a retailer who's you know trying to think of you know what my uh retail concept is, a format is, and uh expect which customers will walk into my store and how do I make sure that they're have a good experience and they keep coming back to me.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: That used to be the old uh way of thinking about retail.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: Now I have to be a retailer, has to be deeply analytical, uh very uh technology savvy, and try to think about uh understanding retail as a business in which they are trying to get closer to the customer through all kinds of channels, all kinds of touch points, and so on, right?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's why we have to be more proactive.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I give you lots of examples, right?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: Domino's uh used to be a very uh uh plain and old pizza uh location where used to go and buy pizzas or even order takeouts and so on.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: But now they think themselves as a technology company who happens to be in pizza business, right?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: So why?
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because they have changed the way in which they approach it.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so people can order from anywhere, anytime, and keep track of the orders, and they fulfill the orders through you know, now drones, um through uh um dry um self-driving vehicles, all kinds of possibilities uh exist for them.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: So they're deeply investing in technology.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: So this is what um the framework that retailers have to think about is that you know, to manage this, harness this data, you mentioned this, you know, I have um hindsight, what be what has happened in the past.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh I have insights, what is happening right now, and how do I use the data to have foresights to anticipate, predict, and recommend things uh that's positive for the customer experience and also creates value for the firm.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so you can also use the car driving analogy where you know you're driving a car, you know, your hindsight is the rear-view mirror view of what is happening and what happened, and what how should I uh insights is what's happening on the road, and I'm following that.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: And foresight is where do I want to get to, and what are the changes taking place.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: Now you have all the GPS and you have uh maps and all those things, which tells you precisely what time you're likely to reach, what are the different routes possible now, right?
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, if you go by this route, you'll save this much, or you you can be more, you can save the environment if you it might take a few longer.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how retailers have to look at it.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they have a bunch of data from hindsight past, they have data currently that's going on inside real time, and they have to generate using generative AI and uh um uh similar tools, what could be some scenarios for the future, and then they have to act on this future.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: So that calls for a very holistic thinking, not from a conventional point of view, that I have uh retail stores, people come to the stores, but rather thinking about whether I how what big a retail footprint I have, how should this be facilitated by the different technology, the different channels, right?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um now, how do I translate that retail uh physical presence into virtual ones with the metaverse that is emerging, right?
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: All of these things add to the experience of the customer.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: You have to value those experiences and you have to monetize that value.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: So again, I'm coming back to accountability uh in a roundabout way, but that's exactly the world that is emerging right now.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so when you look at retailers specifically, uh uh Winky, uh, one question that I've always had is they have tons of data, right?
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but typically what you see of these retailers is they are pretty deal prone or promo uh prone or coupon prone, right?
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh I see very rarely uh you know uh what I call as personalization by uh you know recommendations of my lifestyle of what I bought with them.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so therefore, if I were to harvest this big data, uh, you know, there are there's a very different thinking that's needed rather than just you know actually creating door hangers kind of strategy, right?
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: Which is you know, you just throw in something in as a door hanger as a coupon, and I walk into your store.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, is that something that uh you know that thinking uh is there any interesting example that you can uh you know share with us on a retailer trying to do something different and uh which has had a severe lift in the way uh you know the retention, the uh you know the average uh basket size, the uh average value has increased and the engagement has increased.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: Is there any interesting example that you can share with us?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great question.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you're right.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think we are living in a retail world, for right or wrong, we've been habituated as consumers, right?
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: To expect promotions, deals, and so on.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: And let's face it, you know, uh consumers uh and shoppers uh have a budget, uh they want to maximize their value that they seek from that, right?
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: They they have favorite brands, they have second favorite brands, and so on.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and you know, if I can get my favorite Nike sneakers at a discount, why would I not want that?
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: So let's not uh pretend that this this is going to go away, right?
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you are gonna have promotions and deals.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's one significant part of interesting people to come and buy more, especially in events times, holiday times, and so on, because you are trying to increase the volume of uh things bought, right?
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: So that will go on.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: But what you raise is the most important point is that you know, let's step away from those things which we'll continue to do on a regular basis and well, but are there any other ways to identify the right offers of values for the customers and then make these customers a lifetime uh uh customers for you uh because they love to shop at your retail, because you are providing the best matched offerings for them, and uh increasingly uh they look out for you, right?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: So give you the best experience and so on, right?
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so you you feel holistically satisfied.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what I can say is that there are lots of uh use cases.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: People would, I can come up with some few examples, but uh the most promising right now is uh the role of uh AI and machine learning in trying to personalize the experience, right?
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, let's take Chat GPD, for example, right?
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: Now, a lot of firms since Chat GPD was introduced, or generative AI in general, have jumped into the bandwagon and tried to test a lot of offerings.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it uh it allows you to um to create um a lot of offers and recommendations on the fly because it's pretty fast, and creating the first draft may not be accurate, may not be, may have be, uh it may be uh fraught with errors and flaws.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but it does help you to uh generate some ideas and uh predictions based on uh what they find, especially because it is multimodal.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you can use images, text, and data.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: People you can use people's reviews, what they say about you, what the images, and so on, to come up with a better personal experience or recommendation.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: So um a couple of uh firms that I know, Levi Strauss, for example, is using that to create uh gene styles and gene colors, and now that'll be more uh personally uh suitable for you, right?
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes what happens is they have themselves tested it and they have reported that they've experienced a 150% lift in sales in the initial testing phase.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and these are just the you know, tip of the iceberg examples.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see more of these examples come about.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh lots of cosmetic retailers now using the um uh the concepts of uh you know virtual try-ins and mirrors, right?
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you you can now uh give more ideas to people, right?
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh recently we completed a study where we um looked at the differences between inspirational offers versus uh deal-oriented offers, right?
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: And we found remarkably by you know, we did through multiple methods, you know, we did experiments, we did uh field experiments, we did lab experiments.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: We we could show that if you come up with the right inspirational ideas, you get much better lifts for your offers than just deal uh oriented offers.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: But the in fact, uh in fact, I wanted to talk to you about that because I read that paper and between inspirational uh you know and deal-oriented uh you know work.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so uh so can you talk to me a little bit about that?
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: It was very interesting because uh something that uh you know what I saw there was uh you know, in store, if uh you use inspirational communication versus uh deal-oriented communication, uh, you know, you studied that and you there are some interesting findings.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: So uh how could me as a retailer uh differentiate between a deal-oriented communication and uh inspirational communication?
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: Can you walk me through that?
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I think the retailers are leaving a lot of money on the table because they are not fully understanding and exploiting this.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: For example, uh retailers have a lot of avenues to reach customers, right?
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: You in a physical store, you have kiosks, you have checkout counters, there are so many message, you know, shelf uh uh talkers, there are so many ways to uh communicate.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then using mobile devices.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: If you have the app, you can message people ahead before they come in to store uh during the time of purchase, uh, after purchase.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: There are so many ways to touch them.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: The the thing that that has been underexplored or under exploited by retailers is that uh retailers always want to get their offers, uh the promotional deals, right?
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: Retailers get uh some promotions from the manufacturers, right?
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so they decide to pass through some of the promotions.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: They decided to keep some of them and so on.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: This is their story.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: Every week they keep doing this, and this is the story of their uh life based on the past, right?
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: But what they have missed out in the process is I could actually message you, Swami, knowing that Swami, you like maybe, let's say, let's talk about categories like you know, cooking, right?
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, if you're doing baking, rather than giving you a deal on one uh set of uh uh you know floor or one set of chocolate chips and so on, I can give you some uh inspirational ideas with all the ingredients and stuff like that and help you to assemble very quickly.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: Now in a virtual basket, you can put it all together and deliver it.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: So it's almost uh, and and I if I can get a product for you that works better for you, that I save a lot of time for you, I save and give you a better experience, right?
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's the inspiration that you're getting.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now, let's take gardening, for example.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, um you discover that you need some uh utensils or you you need some uh uh you need some equipment and you need some uh seeds and you need some plants, all of these things.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're just looking for deals in each one of them, but somehow I inspire you and say, here are some garden ideas for you, here are the ingredients, here's how it is.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, if you decide to buy it as uh this, you will you you'll save a lot of time and money, right?
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: And as let's say you're going camping, so I give you an inspirational set of ideas rather than uh you know, maybe an offer for a sleeping bag, which is all set sold separately.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I can go on and on.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: So so many activities, you know, if you think about shoppers, we engage in activities.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: We think in terms of activities, right?
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: But retailers are siloed, they are thinking in terms of products.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: And also, and most of the products are sold on deals, so it's incumbent on the shopper to really search for these deals and pick and choose the right ones and assemble them.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: But instead, if I made it easier, it gives you inspirations.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say vacation, right?
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: So if I give you some ideas of vacation and think of Chat GPD now, you can put things on Chat GPD and say, hey, you know, you want to have a vacation uh, let's say in Bali, right?
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: So you just type what will be an ideal vacation like that.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it can give you all that you want to do at different days and different things that you might require.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and and that could be another source of inspiration for you, right?
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: So uh bottom line is I'm what we found is that uh when we tested it in the field, it gives much, much greater lift.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, in inspirational condition, people many times end up buying products that are not in promotion because they fit into the inspiration, right?
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's the thing that now it's more possible with the data, with the technology, and um with the way that consumers are the new generations of shopping, you can do more of it now.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant, brilliant.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and more recently, uh Venki, I think uh, you know, you also uh you know uh did a research around how you know Apple Pay and PayPal, uh, you know, uh when actually you put it into the uh app, uh it uh you know how it increases engagement.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, there's a study that you have done, and that's very, very recent.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: So what is the learning that uh you had out of that?
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh this is a study by my doctoral student, Tao Tao A, myself and Dan McCarthy of Murray University.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and what we were looking at is uh when mobile apps of retailers, for example, introduce payment methodologies like Apple Pay, PayPal, you know, what happens to shopper behavior?
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, first of all, you know, the initial thinking is oh, you know, when you introduce that, you know, it substitutes people are paying by credit card, now they'll pay by Apple Pay or PayPal, right?
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: We wanted to look at that question more carefully, deeply.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: Is that the case?
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: Or is there any other spillover effects, unintended effects, both positive or negative, right?
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: What we find a path fascinating, right?
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, rather than just being substitutional from credit card to um to these new payment methods, uh, we found an increased engagement in the app, which in turn leads to more purchases.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, particularly we found lots of impulse purchases.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, unintended consequences as a result, we have more returns, right?
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: So there's return.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: But what we found is net net, the increase is substantial, anywhere between 30 to 40 percent in the short term.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, of course, in the long term, it won't be that high.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: But even if you stimulate people to purchase so much, now they bring in newer items into the basket that they've not bought before.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: And once they start doing that, it's easier for them to repeat those items.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: And now you have a higher customer lifetime value than they have before.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: And how does this happen?
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: We went deeply into understand that, you know, uh what one one major reason is uh it reduces friction for the shoppers, right?
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: With credit card, uh, you know, many times when you shop, you have to enter your credit card information in different apps, right?
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: If you having 10 retailers you shop from, you have to put it in.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: The advantage of this is that Apple Pay or PayPal is that you have to do it only once.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: So that's reduces friction, right?
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: Second thing is, you know, people are concerned about security.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: Every time you give credit card information and multiple times multiple ads, you're increasing your risk exposure, right?
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh fraud exposure.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: So with this, you are actually, you know, because these are very reputable uh payment uh vendors, uh, you reduce your risk uh with that.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: So that also enables to a certain extent.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um but what we find is that it allows people to engage with the mobile app, right?
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: Rather than spending time.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, people uh want to spend very less time.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: And if I have to spend one minute on the payment process, you know, the cart uh um placement of card, making the payment details, and check out um uh this time can be used in uh you know searching for something or being entertained by a new offer and so on.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: So again, we find positive spillover benefits of that.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that was the more fascinating findings for us.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the other uh work which you have done, uh which I want to spend a want you to spend a couple of minutes, is uh you've done a lot of work around customer satisfaction and loyalty in an online and an offline environment.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, did you see any differences or uh was it pretty similar?
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, how how do we uh you know, if I were a company, uh, you know, there's there's a set of customers purchasing from me in an offline environment, uh, there are a set of customers purchasing from me from an online uh environment.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: Do I need to treat these customers differently and do different kinds of marketing programs and retention programs?
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: What is some what is something that uh you know you saw and uh what would you advise them?
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, very good question.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: This goes back to my research with Arvind Rangaswamy and Mike Pusteri, who was uh with uh Marriott at that time when we started that.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and then Arvind, myself, uh Amy Smith, who was a doctoral student at uh University of Maryland at that time, we started engaging in this out of a managerial question.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the problem was like this uh Marriott wanted to be uh in in back in the early 2000s, uh in the internet was really expanding.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: They were not yet online, and uh companies like Travelocity, um Expedia were already there, right?
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: They were booking travel and so on.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: So they were going to um Marriott and saying, hey, so many travelers are coming to our site and they're booking your hotels through us.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to pay us uh uh the commission that you pay to a travel agent, right?
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: And all of a sudden, you know, this if you're the CEO of uh uh Marriott, you're shocked and says, Hey, uh, why should I pay you, right?
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because I don't even have an agreement with you, you're not my distributor, you're not my travel agency, and so on.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so um then they wanted to do a study, Marriott wanted to study saying that, you know, what's the benefit of uh going online, creating my own site, let's say Marriott.com, uh, and going through these places, versus uh going offline, uh keeping offline, you know, people book me through my 1 in 800 number or uh travel agencies, right, which used to serve as well, right?
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and initial fear, the the CEO of Marriott was fearing that once people go online, they can actually switch uh in a jiffy because you know it just needs a click to go from Marriott to Hilton or Hyatt and so on.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: Once they find a lower price, so it'll become a flea market, right?
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: People will start going back.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then their satisfaction will be lowered and they will not be loyal anymore, and so on.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: So we handled all of these things in two studies.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: One, we looked at price sensitivity.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: Do become do travelers will they become more price sensitive if they choose primarily online versus offline?
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and another study was looking at what happens to their level of satisfaction after they stay in a hotel and uh you know, are they satisfied and would they continue to come back to you, right?
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: So these are very difficult questions at that time because you had to make investments uh in websites, and you know, sometimes some this this would be not uh uh reversible once you make that go down the path.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: So when we did the study, we had a very uh we were also apprehensive, we might get some findings that are not very pleasant for the uh companies, right?
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: But to our surprise, what we found was people who actually started to use online to choose, at that time mostly desktop and laptop, now increasingly mobile, they tended to become more satisfied of the experience if if their booking experience was you know frictionless and uh flawless in terms of no errors and so on.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then post satisfaction, you know, they have to stay at the hotel, the service matters there.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then they are more loyal, consequently.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: And we were scratching our heads and say, how is it possible, right?
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: Here's a CEO who believes that you know it could be devastating for the price sensitivity royalty.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: And we also found that they're less price sensitive.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: Then we tried to understand why it is happening, right?
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: When we started peeling the layers from the onion, we started understanding why this happens, right?
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um what is happening, and it's even true even today, is that uh when people use online to make choices, to do search, and so on, they are reducing the time spent, uh, if it's done efficiently, to make the choice, right?
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: And if the experience is frictionless and flawless, they tend to like it.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then it becomes a sticky experience, right?
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: Now I can repeat this.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I can you know do a reorder and so on.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: And at the same time, online uh allowed hotels and uh to really showcase the property, right?
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: Before that, you know, you could call a 800 number of Hilton, Hyatt, um, and Marriott and just you know go on on the brand reputation alone.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: You won't know how the property looks and so on.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: Now you can showcase that time and Marriott could come up with 3D uh views of that, which we are very familiar with the used to now, right?
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: So all these things matter a lot, and that's what is contributing to the satisfaction.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I can do a virtual tour of the property, I can know which property which um locations are close by.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I go to a hotel for official visit, I can know how close is my uh uh client uh to that hotel, right?
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: I I can see virtually, I can map it, I can see what I can plan my routine, right?
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm on top of that, you know, if I enter a hotel, uh then I I have the same experience uh translated, then it enhances my satisfaction and loyalty.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: And this today, even till today, is true.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: What we find is continuously people who are using online, whether you know, in multiple formats, um mobile, desktop, laptop, and other things, they continue to be more satisfied and loyal uh than we were people purely picking based on offline.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_00: And you back to your question about segments, right?
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: We also find some segments are want to be primarily online, primarily offline, some of them balanced.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and and so we have to uh engage with them differently.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a service provider or a retailer, uh, we have to understand their needs better and try to uh satisfy them and delight them in these different channels.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really the lesson for um marketers.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh a couple of last questions, uh, Wenki.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh now that uh you know you are a chair at the uh marketing uh accountability standards board, uh one question that keeps coming back to me when I look at the white papers there, when I look at all the research work that gets done, uh today companies look at marketing as an expense, as you rightly said.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_01: But when you look at uh uh when you look at gap uh and the way if I buy a laptop or if I buy a uh CapEx, I'm able to depreciate it over you know X number of years, or if I you know do up my office, there's a certain kind of accounting method that I use uh to show my uh PL, right?
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: So uh my view is uh if you really want to build a marketing metric, uh how do you treat marketing expense?
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, some marketing expense are Capex-like, some marketing expense are short-term, and therefore the accounting standards need to be uh, you know, in a way uh you know standardized so that uh even during a recession or a hard time for the company, marketing investments will be seen as long-term investments and not just writing it off on my balance sheet or on my PL this year.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, are there things like this that need to be done if you really want to make marketing more and more accountable?
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: Great question.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, this has been the biggest challenge uh for the community because the accounting standards are very deep and uh very long established, very hard to change.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, in fact, uh, you know, marketing assets like brand assets, channel assets, customer assets have not been recognized as uh marketable assets.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_00: And even in the traditional accounting sense, for example, you know, the value of a brand will be shown as goodwill, right?
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: Especially in mergers and acquisitions uh when it comes to valuation.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_00: But increasingly more and more companies are using marketing experts uh for this evaluation.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: I've personally been involved in quite a few of these analyses.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_00: But when it comes to changing um the accounting uh practices uh principles, uh, it will take a while.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_00: We are getting there.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, MASB is actually working with uh FASB and uh ISO, which is the International Standards Organization.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, Mark MassBee is now being appointed by ISO as the uh standards body for all marketing-related activities uh in many small contexts, right?
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_00: But the big context is how to change the whole accounting function is a big question that it's not easily answered because we still have to uh you know to make sure that the intangible asset, so to speak, which is still not accounted in balance sheets, of which marketing assets are a large part of it, right?
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh do have a role to play, right?
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: Now, more and more companies, they know that you know this CapEx, OpEx uh treatment in in the balance sheet in the PL account uh goes on.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: But they also doing separately their own valuation because ultimately the shareholder value is tied to the intangible assets more so than the tangible assets, right?
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_00: So they do the evaluation.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that you know it is uh not an easy task without getting everybody involved and the whole business community to have a rethink.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so it'll take a while, but we are already getting there in terms of decision makers, using a lot of these marketing uh MASB principles to evaluate the value of brands, value of customers, and so on.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: And they are using it in their decisions.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: Many of the companies are whether they're acquiring new brands, new customers, and re uh you know, evaluating now, especially in this age where you know we have bank collapses, uh, we are we are seeing uh witnessing um the valuation of uh uh you know the new economy with bitcoins um and uh other cryptocurrencies, um uh and other blockchain-related accesses, which are hard to value, but we're seeing more value in tying them to these more scientific principles in marketing that we are evolving.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so last couple of questions uh uh from uh somebody like you.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_01: If I were a CMO, what are the skills that I need to uh you know prepare myself and equip myself as I go into the next decade?
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think are the couple of skills that are what are the hard skills and soft skills that I need to equip myself with?
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think many ski CMOs are uh right now aware what the skills needed are, but I'll articulate them nevertheless.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um the first and foremost skill is be completely data driven, uh, because the entire organization is becoming data driven right now.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_00: So that means analytical, deeply analytical.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_00: So accountability is number one in that uh space because of data orientation.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and second is cross-functional or interdisciplinary, right?
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_00: More previously the CMOs that in fact the CMO title is itself is uh fairly new in the last few decades.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_00: But uh it used to be the senior vice president or executive vice president of marketing function and so on, used to be there.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_00: Regardless of the title, uh it used to be mostly about uh you know spending on marketing assets, brand assets, and also about customers.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: But nowadays the uh CMO has to be increasingly uh cross-functional.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_00: So they have to not only speak the language of the C-suite, the board, uh especially in finance and accountability, but also need to understand most of the marketing is uh now more uh synergistic and streamlined with the other operations.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_00: For example, marketing IS and operations, they're all now more intertwined than before.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to have a better understanding of all these functional areas and you have to be more process point.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's uh these are two important um uh I would say uh prerequisites for a CMO, right?
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_00: On top of that, uh CMOs also have to be very uh talent-oriented.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, identify spot the talent, uh acquire the talent, retain the talent.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: So what it takes for my team in a CMO office, whether you're structured by brand, by customers, uh combination, all of this, I have to really uh make sure I identify the child, make sure that the talent is nurtured and retain the talent.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's becoming very difficult because you know the talent, the hunt for talent is there.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then futuristic orientation, ability to see the future, you know, with uh generative AI taking hold, there's a uh there's all kinds of dire predictions.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Goldman Sachs came out with a very dire warning that close to 300 million jobs may be uh eliminated, or forced.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's probably uh an exaggeration in terms of elimination.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: It may be disrupted, displaced uh into some different degrees.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_00: But the point is that we are looking into an age where uh generative AI is going to improve productivity, uh uh, take over a lot of routinized work, and also even uh impinge on creative work, which used to be the bastion of a lot of marketing, creative talent, you know, creating brand communication, brand positioning, brand uh uh promise.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_00: All of these things are gonna be challenged, right?
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_00: So a good CMO has to be futuristic in saying, hey, how am I going to use these tools?
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_00: What is it going to look like?
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_00: And how do I retool, reorganize, and be prepared for this future?
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_00: In which I am more proactive as a CMO rather than being reactive, trying to understand these are the trends, so I'm keeping up with the trends, right?
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so that is a very difficult uh skill, you know.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's the most difficult skill, but also having the right mindset and orientation is very important.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I feel like you know, then the concept of being open, uh being more open to changes is very important.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_00: And uh that would be my four set of major skills that a CMO would have to focus on.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_01: Fantastic, fantastic.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and if you were to give an advice to a young marketing student in an university, uh what would be the piece of advice for him or her to be a practitioner of excellence in their field?
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_01: What would you what would be the advice?
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh these are excellent questions, and and and since I teach a lot of them, including the Gen Zs and Gen X's, and this is uh something very close to my heart in the sense that I'm I know that I'm impacting a lot of these people, and so I look for.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um I want to go back to uh very basics.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_00: Where what are the basics?
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_00: Basics is that uh, you know, a successful marketer, uh a budding marketer has to be, you know, have an open mind, which is very difficult nowadays.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_00: In this world where you know attention is scarce, right?
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_00: People are in their silos, they keep focusing on that.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think you have to be different.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_00: You have to really be open to different viewpoints.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we talk about diversity, inclusion, equity, and all that's absolutely important, but be open to a diverse set of views, different viewpoints and so on, because uh there's no one single answer to a lot of questions.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of um possibilities, and so that's openness.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, you've got to be like a sponge, you have to keep absorbing, uh, you know, because we're learning new things as been as we go along.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_00: So that means even though I might have done a degree undergraduate or an MBA or something, it it just gives me the starting point.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_00: It does not make me an expert, it does not make me uh an authority and expert, right?
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so being open to you know, absorbing uh newer things and changing my views as I go along is very important.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh another important skill is that be very analytical and hands-on.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, in other words, it means understand, uh, you know, be very comfortable with data analysis, um, be seeking out rather than saying I can tolerate it, right?
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people say I'm a creative person, I don't want to deal with data.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that orientation will not work anymore, right?
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be open to this.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you're a creative person, now you have, you know, you have generative AI, that's also giving creative outputs, you know, whether it's poetry, whether it is uh images, whether it is copywriting, all of these things are being uh enabled, disrupted, assisted, whatever way.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I have to really embrace that very carefully.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_00: Data is going to be the engine, uh uh the oil uh that feeds the future engine.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so I I need to be uh really soaking myself in data to be comfortable with that.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_00: And also I should not be intimidated by um technology people or uh you know programming and so on.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't have to be a great programmer or anything.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you know, coding is being redefined by uh uh generative AI, right?
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_00: So in fact, uh the hardest language uh in the world right now is English, because you know you need to know how to how to how to ask the right questions, right?
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I think asking the right questions become a very important skill now, right?
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so a good marketer student has to be thinking about what are the right questions to ask, not only to my chat GPT, but to really make decisions, right?
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it is very important, as you may have heard of prompt engineering, that's a new field, uh, which is growing very fast.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_00: How to ask the right questions, how to uh you know, think in a way that is more proactive rather than reactive.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so these are kind of a bunch of soft skills plus hard skills, but these are going to be very different from generations, a couple of generations ago.
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, uh thanks, Professor uh Venki Shankar.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_01: It was a brilliant conversation, lots of insights, lots of uh deep work that you have done, which you shared with us, some interesting viewpoints around what skills and uh uh you know competencies that people need to have.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it was totally uh intense and engaging.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks a lot for your time.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_01: Lovely talking about it.
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for the opportunity, and I I look forward to interacting with you more in the future.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate it.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening to this episode.
• 1:06:08
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