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Nevzat Bucioglu - Building no-bull**** partnerships · Partnerships Unraveled

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Partnerships Unraveled, the podcast where we dive deep into the mysteries and the secrets of partnerships and the channel.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Michel Tol.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm head of marketing at Chanext, and I'll be your host for today.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really, really excited to sit down with Nevzat Bujolu, Channel and Alliance Director for AMIA Central at Commvault.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Nevzat, how are you?
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm good.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Good morning, Michel.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really good and excited.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Meet you in next minutes, yes.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think everybody's probably wondering why we're both so excited, but we had a prep call and we just hit it off.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we uh we we have a kind of a shared philosophy, which I hope will come forward a little bit more in this uh in this podcast recording.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I'm I'm really looking forward to this uh conversation.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: So let's get into it.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: Let's start with the uh the boring kind of scripted part, which is could you tell us a little bit about yourself and your background?
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yes, yes.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um myself um basically I'm living north of Frankfurt, father of two uh boys, high maintenance means high energy, 12 and 8.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I have a dog um in the IT industry uh since ever, since 1996, even.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: So my first job was manufacturing PCs and selling them and case modding them.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: So uh lights, water cooling, that's why I smile today when the water cooling is coming back into data centers.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Several roles in sales.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think only managing director is missing in in the vita.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I started as inside sales, was sales coach, I have an uh pre-sales uh uh background education.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and since 2013, I'm in the channel, and that's uh uh where uh I'm now I'm I'm running the channel business for Sentient Emea, which is Dach in Poland at Comvault, um, and leading a team of channel managers.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for sharing.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: And and you mentioned that you started out.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, first of all, I always have to laugh when I think about those days of uh computers and modding where I just have this memory of being so proud of getting my Pentium 1, 133 megahertz, you know.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man, running meat for speed on that.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's just the best feeling.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: You could talk about it for for for for hours, and then and then when you have those hemenses, and then when you have overlocking and you you get a little bit of more uh frames per second, but you need to check the temperature, yeah.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe maybe uh over a coffee for the next two hours.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: To talk about what kind of uh impact water cooling has on a Pentium One, right?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: So you you mentioned that you kicked off uh your career in inside sales, and while we were prepping for this, you shared a little bit about that, you know, that it's really all about cold calling hundreds of accounts that didn't really care what you had to say.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that a lot of us listening, including me, uh, have been there.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um now, I don't know about you.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it did really impact my confidence at the time, but it also taught me a lot about how sales actually works.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: So if you kind of look at that time in your career, how did those learnings help kind of shape your current ideas about building relationships in the channel?
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um basically, I I at at the beginning, in the first two weeks, or let's say in the first months, I hated it.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: I thought like it, this is the most shittiest job on the planet.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I learned three important lessons over, let's say, my first year in inside sales.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so my my first quarter in Insta sales was also my weakest quarter ever.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: I had 5% achievement.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: 5%.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: Despite doing dozens of calls, executing scripts, really obsessive, having a sales coach by my side, always saying, Yeah, you should say this, da da da da da da da da.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, then um I my my team lead took me aside.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: This is the first lesson um I learned.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: He said, mate, you need to stop sounding like a robot.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, talk to people.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: Talk to people and listen and listen between the lines, get the feeling, are they busy?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, are they stressed?
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, are they pissed?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: So at that time I started at Dell.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: So did they have a bad Dell experience?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they they are a Dell customer two years ago, or some of their friends and their notebook didn't work, or something like this.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: You never know where you catch the guy.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and when you when you get the feeling they are stressed, don't push for the conversation.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Leave it and try another day because just the next day it can be a better mood.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe he had problems um in a traffic jam, stressed with the kids to school, uh uh a bad weekend, family uh discussions, whatsoever.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: So he taught me with talking, you talk to humans, sound like a human, be a human.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: Then the next month, I throw away all scripts.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: I said to the sales coach, I tried it, it didn't work.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I started to have conversations and tried uh then then to get to know a little bit um whom I'm talking to via phone.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, and get this connection.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then and then started to sound like a human and say, like, oh Michelle, I I I I I sense that today is not a good day.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um can I call you next week?
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you say, yeah, it may be better, I call you next week.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: All of a sudden I catch you in a different mood, and then I ask you, what do you think about the la la la la and try to engage in the conversation and just get one nugget of information?
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: And if if you are in a talking mood, then of course getting more.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: But if I have the feeling, just getting one and not doing my medic whatever thing for 20 minutes.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: That was the second uh uh uh thing.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like coaching, yes, but mindset is everything.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: So the the the the feeling was uh uh different.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I approach the conversations differently, and then um I learned um that the third thing is uh success in sales uh has five letters.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: Doing.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's it's a it's it's simple a meth game.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: If I call 50 customers or prospects, I have 15 conversations, I turn down to three opportunities, I win one.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: If I have if I'm doing 100 dials, I have 25 conversations.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then I have then what I saw, what I found out quality conversations.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: But at one point, it's not about quality, quantity.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and those three things shaped me a lot, especially the the the third one, uh doing sales is a game of grit and it's a game of activity.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I learned my team leader uh uh said to me the sentence, activity drives results.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then I learned at the end that the right activity drives results.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you put shit into the funnel, then shit comes out, excuse my language.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: But if I'm calling the wrong customers, the wrong size customers, I'm not selling big storage solutions.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's not gonna work.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: But basically, sales is uh a number of uh success in terms of the amount of conversations and then the quality of the conversations by being a human being who's talking to human beings.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I find this even more important in the age of AI.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, 100%.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: You need to balance out that everybody's expecting everything to be fake.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, and then when when when somebody's uh calls then or an AE and is talking like, yeah, uh Michelle here, what are you concerned about?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and and I I talk like I'm sounding like a walking brochure.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and my counterpart immediately sense either being manipulated or feeling interrogated, and that's not gonna work.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's not gonna work.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I would not get the the right information from you before I don't establish trust.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: And and the foundation for trust is chemistry/slash sympathy.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: If I sound like a robot and the you feel it's another sales call, trust will not be established, and I will not get the right information to build my business case, all those kinds of things.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: And after having learned this, um, because the day at Dell um they said here are 250 customers or prospects, they haven't bought zero.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of the probation period, you need to have brought in one million of margin.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then you will survive probation period.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: If not, you're out.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, on the month four, my probation period was uh shortened and I uh became out of the probation period because I hit the one million margin at the at the end of year of month four because of activity and found my way talking to the customers, and uh I enjoyed it.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: Was every customer uh turned every prospect into a customer?
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: But I got referrals because at the end, prospect said to me, Finally, somebody who's not sounding like a scripted machine.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, but that's exactly it.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's two things that uh kind of triggered me while you were talking that I thought was interesting.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: One, that approach that you mentioned, where if you cold call someone and you notice that they're not in the mood, they don't have time, they don't feel good, whatever, and you explicitly respond that way, like, hey, I feel like this isn't a good time.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Can I call you next week?
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: When you do call them next week, it's no longer a cold call.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it's no longer a cold call.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's already warmed up, and I expressed empathy and I already created a great first experience, a first expression.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then and then it's like this second, third, fourth expression, and then it's stacked.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: And all in a sudden that the sympathy and chemistry starts, and then it's the first foundation of trust.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because, but yeah, you're absolutely right.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: The second call is not already a cold call, it's because we already had a short interaction.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, that's amazing.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: I I think one thing I've learned, having done inside sales myself, and I mean, first of all, it really helped me deal with rejection.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the second thing is that it learned it taught me to respond differently to when I received cold calls, because obviously I get a lot of companies calling me all day.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: And these days when I get a cold call, I try to be helpful and kind, even if I don't remotely need what they're selling.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: It takes a minute, it's not difficult to be nice, and every single time there's almost like they they respond almost emotionally, like, oh, thank you for sharing that.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: You didn't have to tell me that.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, you're just a person, you're doing your job.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know me too.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: So so this the you you you hit a nail mate that I I'm the same, yeah.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: Is it cold calling or is it people uh ringing the door because they want to sell a subscription or get donations or something like this?
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: I don't, you know, I excuse my French, but I'm not a cold asshole then and say you disturb my day or something like this.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: I just react respectfully, friendly, and a 30, 60, 90 second conversation, even five minutes sometimes, it can can lift up a human being on the other side.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and this helps me in my in my mind just try to say, yeah, being being a nice human being and lighting up the day of somebody else who's thus just doing their job.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because I was there like you.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: We were there on the other side of the trench.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and that also kind of taught me to also feel that way, even if I haven't experienced what people are going through.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Just assume that they're doing things for the right reasons.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: But like you say, they are doing it for a reason and the intention is good.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: So my behavior is good.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: No, I I think it's interesting because this this relationship building is the bedrock, it's the foundation of everything we do.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes I do struggle.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you can can help me out here.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, your LinkedIn headline, it says no BS, not like a slogan, but like a philosophy, and I love that.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: But when you look at like vendor partner relationships, sometimes you just need to do what you have to do.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you balance those kind of relationships, that no BS, with kind of the outcomes that you need to achieve?
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, it's it's a very good, good, good, good question.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I I get it asked quite frequently.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the answer to that is is simple as that.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I have this philosophy of dealing with human beings and and uh appreciating then the time and and and everything, and I don't want to waste time, I don't want also uh to annoy people by approaching and let's do business or something like this.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that the ultimate form of respect is talking no non-bullshit, no BS.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: So having the conversation and finding out, and if the end is say, Michelle, it sounds like this is not a good match for your business, like our solution, or I think we will not get along very well.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: We share different values, whatever.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I have partners who then come back and say, you were the first vendor who openly said, go and sell our competitors' product, go and do it.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you have a strong relationship with them for five years.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: I understand it.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for explaining it to me that you don't want to switch because you are a loyal character to the other side.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate loyalty, but then I will not show up once you are interested, call me.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, stuff like this.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Another part of non-BS is also calling out bad behavior.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: For example, when I find out that people want to trick us, use us for a second or third quote, uh, where we are not getting maybe allowed to talk to customers, uh, maybe uh I wouldn't say cheating, but playing games.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm calling it and saying, what's going on?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: And when the other side is saying, Yeah, you know, then I say, Why didn't you tell it to me at the at the right?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes uh people need a second or third offer, a proposal, out of compliance reasons.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: I started to say years ago, tell it to me.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: I will give you one.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: But then I don't waste time to create the perfect proposal.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have it in my forecast, so I don't look stupid internally, but I help you.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: This opened more doors than programs.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: So while I do what I need to do in terms of acquiring partner, acquiring partner reps, pitching to partners our solution.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm doing also uh in the pitch, those are the five things where we are great.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: But here are two things where I think we shouldn't be considered.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Let's focus on where we are really good at.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, and this is what the customers like about us, or this is the customer, what the customer likes about Nevzat.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um so giving the other side the opportunity to decide does it fit to me personally from my values, and would it be beneficial to my prospects or customers?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: This is this is what I mean, non-bullshit.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um we have something in place which called page on a plan.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: We don't do business plans with 50 pages, all those kinds of things.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't want to have false promises about uh uh quantrillions of revenue.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: I always say, let's start finding one project, work together, and then and then review how it was.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: Are you happy?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Can we trust each other?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then I found out that out of this one project, two additional come, three additional, and at the end of the year, we see oh, we booked one million together.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: How this happened, we had only one plan on a page, and that's what I mean, uh Michelle, by uh uh uh uh non-bullshit.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: Really talking honest with integrity, uh which doesn't mean to be rude, it means respectful.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: Some people feel it rude because it's very direct and open, but it's never.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's just making it clear like I get your point, uh, or expressing my point under these circumstances, I'm not interested in engaging in some sort of business relationship.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think it is it's a mindset shift, right?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like I would rather be hurt directly than hurt in secret.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: So if yes, and on the other side, it's building the communities, yeah.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: And and and we know everybody knows that you can only prosper when you have fans slash evangelists.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: So and and when they then scale and and pitch the story when I'm not in the room, yeah, I need to to to to fire up them, yeah, to create this this this this desire inside them and create trust.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, trust is being created with being very honest, transparent, and integrity.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: And this is not with scripted NLP, whatever techniques, it's just saying things how it is in a respectful way, and the other side decides then I like that.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: And this I like that is the first start that the other side can become an evangelist.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: And if I have 20 of them, I have a small tribe or community, and then when we meet and gather, we talk to each other honestly, which means then we can say, This sounds like a plan, let's execute.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: But then things just fall apart because we are all human beings who share the common values and we are committed to each other, which means then we are committed to what we say we do.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it all starts with this non-BS.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I I love it.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what's interesting about this is that something that some people who don't yet realize this completely need to understand that when you're even when you're in business, the person across from you, especially in the high end, they know all your tricks, they know all the stories, they've been hurt before, they've hurt people, they've done these mistakes, they it's all done.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: So when you start, you've instantly lost.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I recently had a situation like that where I was cold called by uh this uh CRM company, and I was very transparent.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Look, we already have HubSpot that's totally fit for purpose for our needs right now.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for calling.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: He was like, Oh, can I at least send you an email?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, sure, you can send me an email, that's totally fine.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: A week later, he calls me again, and then I said, What are you doing?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Said, I said I I don't need you.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: I said, You can you can send me an email, it's all totally fine.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: But what are you doing now?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, Well, I kind of wanted to check, are you sure that and that totally changed my perspective about this company because I'm like, no, we had this conversation already.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now you're just wasting my time, you know what I mean?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: So being real and understanding when to walk away.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: And if he in a year or two years would have called me and said, Hey, your company is growing so fast, I wanted to re-check in with you.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to check if it's a fit now.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Totally different.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: But a week later, I'm done.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want anything to do with them.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: And and maybe we're doing the same with our prospecting campaigns.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we we we we stay constantly in touch with the customers on on a base like two to six months, because then something might have happened.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody disappointed you, the actual vendor, whatsoever, a new project, whatever, yeah, but not one week.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're right.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then um, and this uh non-BS approach um is also because I think that not I think everybody is a human being.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: Even the CISO of a Mittelstand company in Germany, he is going home, he has kids, he has the same thoughts, worries, is living in the same ecosystem environment, uh geopolitical, whatever.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: He's not having a totally business, a different business personality, like a cult.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: The underlying person is the same.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and and that's why I think that with these honest conversations, human to human, and then saying, Thank you very much, Michael, for the call, um, is it okay if infrequently I stay in touch with you?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, maybe every second month, and you say, Yeah, of course.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then I call every second month, but it's still this disrespectful thing, but I don't do what you experience, call two weeks later and say, Oh, did you change your mind now?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh no, not in two weeks, yeah?
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're you're setting off for failure because the chance that your question gets answered positively is zero, but also you're not keeping your own promises, right?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that's that's what you were just talking about.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: That that realness, that transparency, that also it translates to being memorable.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because people aren't used to having human conversations.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't matter if you're in direct sales or in channel sales or in marketing or whatever, it's the same thing.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's the same thing.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm I'm totally in this, let's say, I'm I'm saying it and also writing now on LinkedIn, in experience.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: And every contact is an experience.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: If you leave a negative one from the the first or second call, we remember the negative ones.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it needs to we need to stack the positive ones and the small ones.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: First interaction.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm calling you two months later, a small email, then maybe oh Michelle, here is a webinar.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think this might be of interest to you.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: But then those are the in so the irregular touch points, let's say 10 touch points over six months.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: But you are not feeling stalked or harassed.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then when something comes up uh and I call you, or maybe I say, Ah, can I do can I do a survey?
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what do you actually like about your actual solution?
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I still can stay in touch with you.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's in this human, respectful way, and not not you feel not like a prospect and number, and the other side is cold calling me every week because a coach is saying to say.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Starts with a no, which is utter bullshit.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: If that's the case, then no one would be in sales, right?
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I I you know I know that yet that's that on the other side, staying in touch.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we we we share the same feeling.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that I don't call you, I stay in touch with you, I nurture you.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because uh uh when I when I researched you as a company who would be a good prospect, but still I'm dealing with a human being, so I'm I stay in touch with you maybe over six to nine months, not about six to nine days.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's the difference.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's the difference.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's a little bit like uh uh a dating.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um if I approach somebody and and and I say, Do you want to go with me to prom night?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: or can I can I invite you to a coffee?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: And she says no, and I call her tomorrow, it yeah, you know, it feels a little bit.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: But if I bump in her infrequently, check in, then I check she's sick or here is something, and then six months later I ask the same question, maybe the mind changed, and maybe not, yeah, then I still don't come over as a psycho.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and it's the same as sales, especially in chat.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: So especially as a vendor, if I want to approach channel partners and encourage channel sales reps to bring us in front of their customers, and they have like not only one, they have maybe 30 to 50.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: If I annoy the individual, I don't burn just one prospect.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: No, their entire network.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: 50.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it it's stupid to approach channel with with the pressure um in before creating this connection to the human being.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: No, I agree.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think there is one challenge though.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: At least there's lots of challenges, but this is something that that came up.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: You have channel leaders who really do rely on frameworks, who really do only do kind of they focus on the medic, they focus on their processes, they build their three-year strategy.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's very difficult if you're used to working like that to then start pulling in that more human aspect.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, what tips would you have for them to kind of start being more human?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the the paradox thing is I have the I have my business plan as well.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: I have a three-year, a one-year vision as well.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm uh I like Medic as a framework.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I also have frameworks.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: What I would give uh uh uh as an advice is build in the human touch to be able to connect with people, to get the right information.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, it takes more time in the beginning to uh get the connection and build the trust in terms of a deal, for example.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: Let's take coach shortly with medic.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: If I prospecting and I spend more time getting the connection and the chemistry, and then I can jump in a call with Michelle and do my discovery and get the information to fill my medic high quality.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: If I do it in the first or second conversation, you feel manipulated, you sense it because you don't have the first medic conversation with me, maybe the 15th.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: So you feel interrogated, I'm not getting the quality information.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: The same in the business plans, the same in activity.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm not willing to understand and or and spend time, get to know my counterpart, get to know the comp plan, what drives the behavior, what are his plans, what kind of money he needs to earn, how is the compensation plan looking like?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: Does he need to win new logos, for example?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if a partner rep needs to win new logos as part of his comp plan and I get to know it, and I have then 10 partners who have a little bit like the same comp plan, I can build my business plan around new logo hunting.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: And guess what?
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: In my comp plan is new logo hunting as well.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: So if I combine this both, I can still have my three-year business plan, grow my business, but I rally channel partners because I took the time, understand them as human beings, and understand their comp plan and say, what if I would help you, Michelle?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: You have in your comp plan, you need to win five new logos.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: What if Comvault is three?
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then you say, That's great.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: And and you have five other peers as a partner, um, and each need to win five new logos, so 25.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I say, but what of those 25, 15 would be Commvault?
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: Shall we build a plan around it?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: And all of a sudden, this human touch, understand what drives you, what makes you tick, what makes you happy.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um then build in the business plan and I grow.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm not growing by having jumping into the traditional show me your accounts, let's do account alignment, let's book telemarketing, and nothing happens because you are not emotionally engaged.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because I, as a human being, have not proven that I'm of value for you.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: If I doing this, you see, like, oh, NEVSAT can help me finding new logos because I'm not good in code calling.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm good in presenting or running events, and I can say, okay, let's build this.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: We have SDRs, they are good in cold calling, you have territory intelligence with your prospects, you nominate the prospects, and all of a sudden yin and yang apply together, and the business plan comes to life because of the human touch.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: The same with medic.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: You you will then give me the information who's the economic buyer, who's the champion, or you need to talk to Larry.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: Larry is our godfather in backup.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Without him, our MD is not deciding everything.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: I would not get this kind of information before I have a good connection with you, and that's the human human touch.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: So to my channel peers, I would say be more human.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: Simple as that.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know why I'm smiling?
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh obviously, I knew I was going to ask you this question.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know what you were going to answer, but it also pushed me to think about what I would answer.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I was smiling because what I wrote down as some notes for my answer are almost exactly this.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a nice coincidence.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Focus on the person across from you and how you build towards outcomes together.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: At the end of the day, buyer and seller are in this together.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: We're both looking to achieve something which only works if you're alive.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, in in all the frameworks, we have it like positive business outcome.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Magic is like the decision criteria.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: What is the impact on the customer, yeah, or on the channel partner?
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: That the framework is helping, guiding me.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's like football.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: You have a plan, you do the analytics.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: But then you need to put the work and the emotions to make the game plan working.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: And he's the same.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: The system by itself is not selling.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I need informations, and I it's a human-to-human business.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: People buy from people that people they trust.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then I get the informations, and then all of a sudden, I have a qualified pipeline.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if I have this trust level with the partners, the partners will say, Look, this account, yeah, I gave my word to your competitor, and we are in there for five years because they brought me into this account.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: I took this, I take this account off.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: But then I say, But Michelle, this account is on my target list.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: I will approach this with another partner just to let you know.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: But then the response from the partner I'm talking to actually is, yes, I know.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we can be friends in five accounts and competitors in two others.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then we're coming back to the non-bullshit because we're talking to each other like this.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't put this account into a prospect campaign with this certain partner when he said to me, I'm loyal to another one, another vendor.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's why I say if you have five new logos as a goal, uh, I'm I'm not a dreamer to say uh we will uh make you win with us all.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: Two to three.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: And two two with others.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Go.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: Managing expectations, right?
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: But but two is more than zero because actually we have zero business.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: Simple as that.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I honestly, I also think that uh competition is a bit of a paper tiger in every industry.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because if I look at like the companies that I worked for and their direct competition, I usually had very good relationships with them.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes, indeed, you can't fulfill a deal.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you're not the right fit.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: How much better is it then to bring the like to lift the industry up together as opposed to just be fighting all the time?
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's it.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and we have the same.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, a couple of my former pure peers are now at Cohesity, our direct competitor.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we call each other, we make jokes, obviously, we don't share business, uh whatever, but then they say, Yeah, I heard that your last channel event was massive.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: And say, Yeah, thank you very much.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: But then I get the appreciation because somebody said to them the Commort channel event was super.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's this kind of things.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: But on the other side, it saves time.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: I had one experience like years ago where I talked to a sales rep, and then he said to me, Never said, You will not win in this account.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Why?
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then he said to me, Look, the daughter of the CISO is the fiancee of the AE from your competitor.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: And this this level of trust was established because we we know each other for five years and we trust each other.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I took this account of my list because I got medic informations like the EB is totally bought in something else.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's what I mean by it will help you doing the right activity to drive results.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because you you have the right information for your business plan, for medic, for command of the message, for spin selling, whatsoever, but you get quality infos to have quality pipeline at the end.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, amazing.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: So two things.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: One, I'm going to see if after this recording is over, I can trick you into doing a round two for this podcast.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because this is I can I can already give you a commit because uh uh I enjoy this kind of conversation and I think it comes very it comes along very, very, very well that um it it comes out of my heart.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I did I don't need to think about it.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I can do two or three if you want.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: We'll just do an entire series.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: Lebseth and Michelle talk about no bullshit.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, quick question.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: As I told you in the prep call, we always ask people to nominate another person uh to come on this podcast, besides yourself, obviously.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: But is there anyone you can think of where you're like, oh, that would be great to have these types of conversations with?
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, yes.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I would nominate uh uh uh my my my leader, Jamie Ferelli, who runs the Emea business, but not only channel, also GSI, MSP, Alliance.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and and I tell you why, because he's living and breathing this kind of philosophy, and he's actually recruited me to Comvault to be his sparring partner to drive it in my region.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and he's even living it on a different level because he always says, I want to create a happy space for people that they they enjoy their job, and he's also onto something um at the moment leading a project, how uh AI used in a positive way can enable and scale channel.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: That is his heart.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: So he's combining it very cleverly the um emotional intelligence with the artificial intelligence, yeah.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: So how this can be together, and and that's why I would nominate him.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's actually a fascinating topic to discuss, especially in the channel, because it is hard also for me sometimes to think like, oh, of course I I use AI, I care about AI, it helps us do a lot of things, but I also don't want to lose who I am or lose the human aspect.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, how can we then elevate that even more, right?
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, uh uh him he him is leading a project where when we talk about this in our one-to-ones, we say AI is here to enable creativity or streamline processes, yeah, um, to create great human experiences.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because for me, as a like like as a channel leader, I can create cool intro videos for my presentations, but still I need to have the story in mind.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, AI is not creating it for me, or the pictures to visualize a message I want to uh uh bring over, but it's not that AI is doing the pitch.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: I need to have the story, yeah.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: And and and and and that's uh where um he he has his heart and mind at the moment.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm definitely gonna reach out to him.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: To close out, do you have any final tip to the people listening right now?
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um only only what we what you and I already uh shared the last uh uh 40 minutes close is um just be aware in in all LinkedIn, artificial, social selling, frameworks, medic, all those kinds of things.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: They are they have their place and they are needed and good, but they are either systems, frameworks, or tools.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: But just being a little bit more human, yeah.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um I have, for example, a couple of ex-peers, they don't even greet me at an event because I work at the competition.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: Don't do that.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, pick up the phone, call your mate, and say, Ah, you you bastard won against us in this account.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: I win, I will now win the next two.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: Make it a friendly competition, but still human beings.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: And just make the the interactions in day-to-day business joyful and happy for other people.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like your experience, what you said at the beginning.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: Listeners of this podcast are most likely in IT sales and get approached by others as well.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: Outbound, inbound, direct mail, LinkedIn, just to respond friendly, just in lighting the day of another human being.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that would be my final message.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: Sounds a little bit spiritual, but it is.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the environment is is is harsh.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um the competition is harsh, the projects, we are fighting all for the same projects.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: And if somebody approaches us in a cold call, just be friendly and say thank you very much.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's engage in a small conversation.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: We're talking about two or five minutes.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: Don't don't don't biohack your day and and plan it like minicious.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: Just be a friendly human being.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: I have nothing to add to that.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: I fully agree.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Nevzat, thank you so much for sharing.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: And uh taking the time to speak to me listening.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and and and my my last zip is this is my favorite team.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: I know a couple of people will be annoyed.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: Dortmund, uh uh uh let's say, wish me luck for uh the Champions League uh versus Atalanta.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and thank you, thank you, Michelle, very, very much.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: I enjoyed the conversation a lot.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: Amazing, thank you so much, and you dear listeners, thanks for tuning in and see you in the next episode.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks again, Nevta.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Mm.