Latest / The Prompt / Ep. 547 | ABM without the buzzwords: A real-world GTM playbook

Transcript

Ep. 547 | ABM without the buzzwords: A real-world GTM playbook · The Prompt

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  This is on base your one stop shop for solving your most
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  pressing B2B go to market challenges.
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  Each week, host Chris Moody and Paul Gibson talk to sales and
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  marketing leaders to get you in depth insights and creative
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  strategies to set your revenue teams up for success.
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  Hey, everyone, welcome back to the Home Based podcast.
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  I'm your host, Chris Moody and today I'm very excited to be
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  joined by Angie Bruns Hurley to talk about crafting ABM strategy
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  from the ground up. Angie, thanks for joining us
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  today and welcome to the show. Thank.
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  You for having me? Well, it's a pleasure.
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  We were just talking before you hit record.
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  We've had some intersecting points in our journeys, but
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  that's where we like to start. What led you to what you're
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  doing today? So I'm going to go way back.
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  So people are always very interested in this, but I grew
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  up in South Dakota and I was a competitive gymnast.
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  That's where I learned early on the value of focus, grit and
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  consistency, and those traits have stayed with me throughout
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  my career. I went to College in Denver and
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  later earned my MBA at Syracuse University, and that's where my
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  journey to business really began.
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  My career technically began in market research, but I quickly
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  transitioned into what was known then as database marketing.
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  One of my earliest formative roles was at a company called
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  Laser Spine Institute and from there I really had hands on
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  various marketing animation platforms including Par Dots and
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  then later on Eloqua. I use those platforms to develop
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  highly segmented nurture campaigns, automated direct mail
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  campaigns, integrated lead scoring and tracking into the
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  sales floor CRM and that was well before revenue marketing
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  was a standard function. Eventually, I transitioned into
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  a new role that was cross functional under the IT and
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  development team and I LED a successful Salesforce
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  implementation. I managed a team of developers
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  and business analysts and drove operational efficiency across
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  multiple departments. I then made a pivotal career
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  move to Gartner, joining a newly formed division called Gartner
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  Digital Markets. I was focused on scaling
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  reviewer acquisition and review expansion for Kaptara Get Off
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  and Software Advice. It was there that I transitioned
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  from B to C to B to B, shifting my focus from individual
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  consumers to professionals inside companies.
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  That change had a real profound impact on my long term
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  trajectory. I started out at Gartner as an
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  individual contributor. I focused on automating and
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  optimizing offers for reviewers. Over time, I expanded my role to
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  lead demand Gen. across paid social, web development, events
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  and analytics while overseeing the strategy for campaign
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  execution. It was during this time that I
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  worked alongside many former startup employees from the
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  companies that Gartner had acquired, and that experience
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  sparked my next professional goal.
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  I really wanted to join a startup on the path to
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  acquisition or an IPO. That goal became a reality when
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  I joined Double Verify. I was drawn to the company's
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  momentum and the opportunity to build the from ground up again.
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  I came in as an individual contributor and have since grown
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  my team to a multidisciplinary group.
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  In 2021, I achieved a career milestone at Double Verify
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  because they went public, and over the last five years I built
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  full stack operations function covering market animation,
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  analytics, campaign and program management, lead management,
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  website and social, digital strategy, and now ABM.
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  Across each chapter of my career, I followed a pattern
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  where I start as an individual contributor, I build from
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  scratch, I scale teams, and I leave the function stronger than
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  I found it. That's awesome.
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  I I love the the competitiveness that started in gymnastics too.
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  I I was kind of sensing that like individual contributor to
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  building a team like you set your mind on something and then
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  barreling down there for the vault or or whatever event it
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  is. Our nieces and gymnastics.
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  It's very competitive, very young, so it.
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  Is and it teaches us skills too. It's because you want to be
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  successful as an individual, but then you also have like the team
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  aspect of it too, where you want yourself and everybody on the
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  team to perform well. So it's just it shifts mindsets.
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  So where you can? Do you know player coach type
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  roles? I love that.
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  I love that. I was basketball on baseball.
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  So almost everyone in B to B, it seems, has some competitive St.
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  kid. And whether it's gaming or what,
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  it doesn't matter. But you know, I'm curious, when
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  you're thinking about account based strategy, why should
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  organizations prioritize addressing their internal
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  challenges when they're moving to an account based strategy?
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  Yeah, Adm has a way of surfacing every operational misalignment
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  and organization has been able to tolerate.
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  If sales and marketing aren't aligned, or if your data is
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  fragmented, your tech stack is disjointed, or accountability is
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  unclear, those cracks will become immediately visible the
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  moment you start discussions around AVM strategy.
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  What I've learned is that ABM doesn't just require operational
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  alignment, it truly forces it. And that's a good thing.
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  If you take the time to address those internal challenges
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  upfront, the impact goes way beyond marketing.
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  You end up creating a more coordinated go to market motion,
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  better visibility into account progression, and shared
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  accountability for outcomes. That alignment accelerates
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  everything from deal velocity to customer expansion because
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  everyone's finally rowing in the same direction.
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  Addressing internal challenges upfront like process clarity,
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  data ownership, and defining what success actually looks like
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  will completely change how you operate.
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  It will help you move faster, target smarter, and drive more
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  meaningful engagement with the right accounts.
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  I also had to reposition ABM internally for a lot of teens
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  and I become sort of a catch all term used to describe a
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  campaign, list of accounts or even a shiny new tech
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  initiative. I had to reframe what it
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  actually is, which is a strategy.
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  It's a strategy that requires alignment across teams, a clear
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  operational backbone and shared accountability for outcomes.
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  Yeah, I love the the reframing and when you said catch all, if
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  you saw me smile, I was going to.
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  That's really good because a lot of times this goes back to my
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  analyst days too. A lot of times with account
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  based, you see one of two things.
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  You see folks who focus primarily on one to one and
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  they're running very personalized, individualized
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  campaigns. And then you see people on the
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  opposite end of the spectrum where they're doing slightly
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  better demand generation, but they're calling it ABM.
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  So it becomes this term that's not very clear and what it
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  means. So I'd love to hear about that
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  reframing and into making account based a broader ongoing
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  strategic approach. What were some of the biggest
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  lessons you learned? I mean, I'll even admit like
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  when I first got into ABMI saw it primarily as highly
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  personalized 1 to 1 campaigns for a few top tier accounts.
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  And while those efforts they will make an impact, they're
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  often difficult to scale and it can feel really disconnected
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  from the broader go to market motion if it's treated as a one
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  off initiative. The biggest shift came when we
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  stopped thinking of ABM as a set of campaigns and started
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  thinking of it as actual strategic framework that
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  supports the entire account life cycle.
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  And that meant building a tiered approach SO1TO11 to few and one
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  to many. And we did that based on account
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  potential, engagement signals and sales priorities.
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  Once we made that shift, ABM became more than just a
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  marketing tactic. It became a driver of growth
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  across the business. So we align more effectively
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  with sales, we prioritize resources more strategically,
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  and we set up the foundation for success in terms of account
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  progression, not just campaign metrics.
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  Relevance and consistency took priority over one off
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  personalization and that's when we really start to see momentum.
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  Love it. All right.
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  Let's pick on the journey going from Gartner to start up.
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  So Gartner for those who have not worked there is very well
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  run internally. So it's a perfect example of
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  running an organization effectively at scale and almost
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  everyone who's worked there will attest to that.
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  So Gene has done a great job at building process and
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  efficiencies and a lot of those things.
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  We know that every company has data challenges and fragmented
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  data and data in all different silos.
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  Every company has their own version of tech debt, but going
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  from a more established company to a startup, there's usually a
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  lot more limits on the resources you have, whether that's
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  technical, budgetary, anything there.
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  So I'd, I'd love to hear about how you navigated all of those
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  hurdles with data fragmentation and tech debt and limited
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  resources to build a functioning ABM framework.
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  Yeah. I mean, honestly, we just have
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  to get scrappy. I mean, a lot of companies, they
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  have fragmented data across multiple systems, whether that's
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  your CRM, your marketing animation platform, or even in
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  spreadsheets on someone's desktop.
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  None of it is talking to each other cleanly.
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  And then there'd be no single source of truth.
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  So for this, we started thinking about what we could trust.
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  So we mapped out where key account and engagement data
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  lived, clean what we could manually, and created a
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  centralized view in Google Sheets and dashboards.
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  It's not perfect, but it gives us a shared source of truth
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  across sales and marketing. And from there, we built
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  lightweight processes like fast tracking and auto assigning
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  records to specific sales reps based on accounts, tracking
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  buying group engagement, and flagging intense signals
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  triggering alerts to be sent to sales.
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  This allowed us to act strategically, so key was not
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  trying to solve every single tech problem at once.
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  We prioritize just enough integration and structure to
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  keep moving while building credibility and momentum.
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  Awesome. Well, let's pull the thread or
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  go deeper on the sales alerts. So when we think about
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  alignment, I'd love to know what specific strategies you found
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  effective in aligning marketing and commercial teams around
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  shared priorities and success metrics.
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  Yeah. So the first strategy I focus on
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  is bringing sales into the process.
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  And it's not just to bring them in to inform them of like the
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  campaign themes that we've decided that we're going to go
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  with, but rather to collaborate on account selection, messaging
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  strategy and defining what success actually looks like for
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  both of us. And then from there, we can move
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  on to shared success metrics, focusing on account level
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  signals, engagement, meeting creation, pipeline progression,
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  and deal velocity. All of those indicators both
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  teams can influence and they help keep the focus on
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  meaningful progress and not just vanity metrics.
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  We're also building out shared visibility frameworks like
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  dashboards, Salesforce campaigns, engagement trackers,
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  so sales and marketing can see the same data in the same format
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  at the same time. That transparency has been
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  really crucial. It prevents misalignment and
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  gives both sides a way to course correct together when
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  something's not working. But at the end of the day,
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  alignment isn't just a one time exercise, it's a practice.
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  And it works best when you treat marketing and sales as Co owners
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  of the same revenue outcomes from the very beginning.
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  Yes, absolutely a revenue outcomes.
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  There's another topic we can dive into there.
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  One of the common traps in embracing an account based
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  approach is often times we have long sell cycles that can take a
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  a long time, years in cases to get to revenue and many view
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  success as revenues. So what are the ways that you
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  ensure your team stays focused on meaningful account based
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  metrics knowing that it might take a long time to get to the
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  revenue attribution? Oh, definitely.
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  I mean, it really starts with setting the expectation that
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  revenue is a laggy indicator. If we only measure success by
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  closed deals, then we're missing months of meaningful signals
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  along the way. So we focus on leading
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  indicators, so things like buying group engagement, moving
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  through deal stages, meetings created from target accounts,
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  and pipeline influence. We also use visuals like
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  progression dashboards to show momentum, so even if the deal
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  isn't closed, we can see if we're deepening relationships or
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  influencing progressing the opportunity.
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  We're giving the team visibility into those early signals to help
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  them stay motivated and confident in the strategy.
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  And it also builds credibility with sales and leadership
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  because we can speak to progress before the revenue actually
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  shows up on a report. Awesome.
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  Let's dive into buy in a little bit more.
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  So you talked about redefining account based early on.
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  I think many of us in the industry have always despised
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  might be too strong, but the term ABM has marketing at the
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  end, which I've I've found in many instances Atopo and at
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  Gartner just being called account based marketing was
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  almost insulting to sales because a lot of sellers had
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  done approaches like this before.
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  It just wasn't called ABM at the time.
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  So how do you approach redefining the value of ABM
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  internally to make sure that you have buy in from teams who may
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  interpret the roles that they have or the benefits of ABM
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  differently? Definitely.
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  I think it's really just meeting people where they are.
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  As mentioned, different teams here ABM and think different
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  things. Sales might expect highly
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  personalized outreach while leadership might expect a fast
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  pipeline. So I've stripped out the jargon
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  and really reframed Adm as a strategy focused on deepening
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  relationships with the accounts that matter most.
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  So I use real life examples like targeting existing clients that
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  have an open up sell opportunity for a specific product or
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  targeting individuals at high value accounts when renewals
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  typically occur. These are proof points and that
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  can really help people connect the dots between ABM and a
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  tangible outcome. And I always tie back to their
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  goals, right? So it's either pipeline
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  acceleration for sales, influence metrics for leadership
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  and clear targeting for marketing.
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  And then over time, ABM starts to feel less like just a
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  marketing experiment and more like a business wide growth
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  strategy. And once people see that, I
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  think buying becomes a lot easier.
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  I've also heard people calling A/B MABX, which I really like.
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  I haven't rebranded that yet at the company.
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  But to your point, when it has marketing at the end, it just
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  seems like it is a very marketing focused strategy only.
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  Yes, absolutely. I mean, you know, here at demand
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  base, we've, we've gone ABM, ABX, we sometimes just say
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  account based. And now with the rise of buying
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  groups, you know, we're toying around, does the term completely
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  change? And, and look, we're, we're
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  talking about terms and, and ownable things, but at its
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  heart, it's exactly what you said.
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  It's just redefining what it means for everyone.
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  So I think that's a really smart approach.
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  We've always talked about right message, right time, right
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  place, right person, all all the things.
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  So we know that the time element is extremely important.
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  With the increasing importance of real time data and as fast as
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  things are happening in our industry, how are you balancing
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  speed and accuracy and optimizing all of your
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  campaigns? Yeah, this is something I've had
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  to evolve in my own approach over the years because early on
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  I was very focused on speeds like refreshing dashboards,
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  constantly reacting to performance shifts in real time
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  and making quick changes based on just surface level engagement
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  data. And while that kind of
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  responsiveness it can be useful in some cases, especially paid
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  or e-mail channels, I quickly learned that reacting too fast
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  can backfire, especially for more complex multi touch
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  programs where you're influencing a long sales cycle
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  and you have multiple decision makers.
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  So now I've learned to treat real time data as more of an
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  early signal, not an immediate directive.
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  It's like we look at things like e-mail engagement, website
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  activity, intense signals, and campaign performance daily, but
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  we resist the urge to optimize based on just one metric or
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  short term fluctuation. Instead, we want to use those
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  real time signals to flag areas for deeper investigation.
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  And then we paired that with qualitative input from the sales
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  team and longer term performance data like pipeline with velocity
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  or deal progression. But I mean, ultimately it comes
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  down to discipline. You want your team to be
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  responsive, but also grounded in the bigger picture.
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  Real data is only powerful if you're clear on what you're
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  solving for. Otherwise you just end up
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  chasing short term wins at the expense of long term strategy.
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  Absolutely. OK, This next question, I'm
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  going to limit you to one thing and it's going to be it could
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  potentially be tricky. So what do you think is the
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  single biggest challenge in B to B marketing today?
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  I would say it is probably just adopting account based marketing
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  and not because it's a new concept but because it requires
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  A fundamental shift in how teams operate.
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  Because AB Ms. not just a tactic, it's a cross functional
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  strategy that touches sales OPS content leadership.
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  The challenge isn't understanding what ABM is, but
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  it's aligning people, systems and processes to actually
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  execute it well. Perfect, great answer.
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  That wasn't tough for you at all.
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  In my head I was thinking, oh, you're going to have a hard
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  time. There's so many challenges.
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  OK, we're shifting into the the lightning round here.
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  We have a few quick hitters that we like to ask every single
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  episode. So the first what are your
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  favorite tools or technology that you're using today?
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  This might be a little more long winded than you're expecting,
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  but before recommending any tech, I always say tools are
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  just tools, right? They're not a strategy, and they
• 17:29
  definitely don't fix foundational problems.
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  So without the right people, processes, and ownership and
• 17:35
  accountability in place, even the best technology will sit
• 17:39
  unused, or worse, create even more confusion.
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  I've seen companies invest in platforms that never got adopted
• 17:44
  because nobody owned the rollout, expectations weren't
• 17:47
  aligned, or there was just no accountability to actually use
• 17:49
  the tool. And that's why my recommendation
• 17:51
  is to focus on your operating model first.
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  Hire an OPS person or empower somebody internally to get the
• 17:56
  framework right. Until that foundation is in
• 17:59
  place, just be scrappy. Use what you have, and then when
• 18:01
  you're ready to scale, you'll actually get value out of
• 18:04
  whatever tools you bring in. However, I must say that with AI
• 18:07
  at the forefront of everything, I would recommend ChatGPT,
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  Perplexity, and Claude. And I also have to say that I
• 18:14
  really admire HubSpot and how quickly they've been able to
• 18:16
  scale and expand their product offerings.
• 18:19
  Awesome, great answers there. What about good reads?
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  Now we expand this. It could be book, blog,
• 18:25
  newsletter, podcast, video, any type of format.
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  But what are some of the stand out things for you?
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  Yeah, I'm more of a podcaster, so there's a couple I listen to
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  1's called Talking Shop by Kelly Hopping.
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  It's a go to. She brings in GTM leaders and
• 18:41
  gets into the real world challenges of marketing and
• 18:46
  revenue alignment. And it's very relevant for
• 18:48
  anybody doing ABM or building a modern, modern marketing org.
• 18:52
  And then I also really like the Prof G Pod by Scott Galloway.
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  It's sharp, often contrarian take on business, tech and
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  leadership, and it really forces you to think beyond the
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  marketing silo and speak the language of the C-Suite.
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  And then my favorite newsletter is The Market Tunist by Tom
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  Fishburne. You might see his illustrations
• 19:15
  on LinkedIn. People really like to share
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  them. I really enjoy it.
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  He uses humor to spotlight the absurdities and real tensions
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  and marketing. It's insightful and funny, and
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  it's surprisingly useful for aligning teams around what not
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  to do. Yes, I love a lot of those
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  cartoons. I see them in slide decks
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  everywhere and smart approach that he's taking.
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  You can license individual images too, which I think is
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  brilliant. What about the folks who inspire
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  you? Who are some of the most
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  inspirational for folks for you, especially being in B to B?
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  Yeah, definitely. So there's a lot of people that
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  inspire me, but I want to keep it personal to people I actually
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  know and that I've worked with. So 1st I'm going to give a shout
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  out to is Ashley Mcalpin. She's currently the Head of
• 19:58
  Marketing at Rocker Box. She's a seasoned B2B marketing
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  executive. She's known for leading high
• 20:03
  growth teams at multiple companies with one successful
• 20:06
  exit and bringing deep expertise in digital marketing, paid media
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  and data-driven measurements. I worked with Ashley when we
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  worked at later Spine Institute, so like a decade ago.
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  And then Fast forward to now, the company that I'm with now
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  just acquired her company. So now we are technically Co
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  workers again, but she's absolutely brilliant and
• 20:27
  somebody to to look out for. Another person that really
• 20:30
  inspires me is Anthony Tong. He's the VP of Marketing
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  Technology and Operations at Gartner Digital Markets.
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  He is absolutely brilliant. I was his manager and we worked
• 20:39
  together at Gartner and he's just continued to grow
• 20:40
  professionally. He really blends strategic
• 20:43
  leadership with hands on technical expertise across a
• 20:46
  wide range of platforms. And his background, it really
• 20:49
  spans from B to C&B to B. And he's known for building,
• 20:52
  building scalable frameworks that connect data platforms and
• 20:55
  performance. Like I said, he's just brilliant
• 20:57
  and somebody that I highly recommend.
• 21:00
  And then last, it's going to be Kelly hopping.
• 21:02
  So I realized that she's the CMO at demand base now, but she and
• 21:06
  I also crossed paths at Gardner Digital Markets when she was the
• 21:10
  CMO there. She's very inspiring.
• 21:12
  She's a a best selling author, she's a Forbes contributor, she
• 21:16
  has a podcast, she's a Ford member.
• 21:18
  She just has a lot of deep experience in B to B SAS
• 21:21
  marketing, strategic GTM alignment and operational
• 21:23
  leadership. She's very active on LinkedIn
• 21:26
  and definitely somebody I enjoy keeping up with.
• 21:29
  Awesome, great folks there and I'm fortunate I get to have one
• 21:33
  on ones with Kelly every week, so Kelly's my boss.
• 21:35
  So boom, that's a good one to have there.
• 21:37
  And then the last question, most important of all, how can
• 21:41
  everyone get in touch with you after this episode, Angie?
• 21:44
  Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn, so Angie Bruns
• 21:47
  Hurliki, or you could send me an e-mail, so it's just my last
• 21:51
  name, hurliki.angie@gmail.com. Awesome.
• 21:56
  Well, thank you so much for joining us today.
• 21:57
  You crushed it. Thank you for having me, really
• 21:59
  appreciate it. Thanks for joining us for On
• 22:03
  Base. If you enjoyed this episode,
• 22:05
  please be sure to share, rate, review and subscribe on Spotify,
• 22:08
  Apple, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.
• 22:12
  The show is brought to you by Demand Base, the only account
• 22:14
  based experience platform built for sales and marketing
• 22:17
  alignment.