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Scaling a Business: Part 2 · The Ground Game

0:03
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the ground game for mortgage professionals built for the fight.
0:09
SPEAKER_01: Hosted by Brian Lovell and Mark Milo.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: You know, I I can't believe I get to earn a living like this.
0:18
SPEAKER_01: And at the end of the day, man, I'm just trying to serve other people.
0:24
SPEAKER_01: Right.
0:24
SPEAKER_01: Right?
0:25
SPEAKER_01: Like there are certain things that you're talking about.
0:27
SPEAKER_00: That's where your passion is.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: You you say it uh and you're you're you're genuine about it.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: But I think people who have those interactions with you feel it.
0:36
SPEAKER_00: And for that reason, I think you find great traction and great success.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: And then the money follows.
0:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
0:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
0:41
SPEAKER_01: And I just, you know, I think just like, you know, some of these skills, or we'll call them gifts, like they're not necessarily anything I feel like I earned.
0:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying I didn't put in work, right?
0:51
SPEAKER_01: I didn't, I wasn't, I was learning based.
0:54
SPEAKER_01: I was growth-minded.
0:55
SPEAKER_01: I wanted to sharpen my skills and improve my skills.
0:58
SPEAKER_01: And I and I did all of those things, but to some degree, some of this stuff, like it's just kind of the fabric of who I am.
1:04
SPEAKER_01: And somehow that turns into a blessing of, man, I get to do this for a living and and provide for my family.
1:11
SPEAKER_01: Like, it's pretty incredible.
1:13
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:13
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's kind of the point that you're making.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: It is interesting.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: Back to the financial side of it, the cost of manufacture alone, you know what it is now?
1:21
SPEAKER_00: I I yeah, no.
1:22
SPEAKER_00: A little over$13,000.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: And that's here or industry wide.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: Industry wide.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: So when we do our benchmarking, our financial you know analysis every single month, you know, we get our you know, our uh CEO summary.
1:34
SPEAKER_00: I get it.
1:35
SPEAKER_00: And it's sort of the story of the financials.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: Like I can go through and look at every line item if I want to, and until I'm bleary-eyed.
1:41
SPEAKER_00: But the the story of the financials really focuses in on how much does it cost us to manufacture a loan versus how much are we making, and this is our our net margin, you know, and um all of that stuff.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: You start to realize the scale of things can get really big quickly and it you can completely lose touch with the whole reason you started the thing to begin with.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: Um and I think always keeping a renewed focus on that.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: That's my job.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: Patrick, the president of the company, he is much more involved in those financials and trying to figure out hey, if we can do an extra basis point here, an extra basis point there, reduction or in revenue, look at what a big difference it'll make.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: We get a pickup there.
2:23
SPEAKER_00: And that's a good compliment.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: We're a good compliment for each other in that regard.
2:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I I totally agree.
2:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, so going back to like the scalability part, because I think this is what we really want people to take away, right?
2:32
SPEAKER_01: So whether you're an individual producer, whether you're running a mortgage branch, you know, with a couple of LOs in it, or whether you've got, you know, a division or a large company or whatever, you know, the I the conversation here was about scale, is about scalability.
2:47
SPEAKER_01: So have you have you run through times where, like, hey, the systems and models that got us to where we're at right now no longer work for the volume that we're at.
2:58
SPEAKER_01: And what does that shift or pivot look like?
3:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:00
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's also even in the the sale, the comp composition of the sales staff.
3:04
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you know you can be doing a lot of volume on really low margin products and taking a lot of concessions, and you start to realize that the more volume isn't resulting in any more any more revenue.
3:16
SPEAKER_00: In fact, it's probably costing you revenue.
3:19
SPEAKER_00: We've definitely Patrick and I have definitely had conversations of maybe we need to shrink back a little bit um over the years.
3:25
SPEAKER_00: That conversation has definitely come up of sort of resetting and then growing again a little more purposefully.
3:32
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
3:32
SPEAKER_00: Um, that not every candidate who wants to come here is the right candidate for the company.
3:36
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
3:37
SPEAKER_00: And that's true from pieces of technology to operations, you know, to marketing initiatives or whatever.
3:43
SPEAKER_00: You have to really start to evaluate our be let's be thoughtful about this.
3:47
SPEAKER_00: Is this the is this a direction to go down?
3:49
SPEAKER_01: No, I love that because you're basically talking about slowing down to speed up.
3:55
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
3:55
SPEAKER_01: And that's where like things get uncomfortable for people because we're asking, hey, yeah, this is the way we've always done it, but maybe for us to get to that next thing, we need to look at it a little bit different.
4:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:08
SPEAKER_01: And getting people to buy into what that looks like.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: I would say this if I could go back and have a conversation with myself when we started the company, it's when you know you have the right individual in a position, you never talk about it.
4:23
SPEAKER_00: It never comes up.
4:24
SPEAKER_00: Somehow magically you'll get through all these different conversations over beers and over dinner and meetings in the conference room, and you never once go, huh?
4:31
SPEAKER_00: Are they the right?
4:32
SPEAKER_00: When you find yourself talking about it a lot, you already know.
4:36
SPEAKER_00: You already know that that's not you, you have the wrong position, wrong person in the wrong position.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: And that's a stumbling block for your company.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: And it's gonna lead you down a path that is gonna be a path you're gonna have to back your way back out of.
4:49
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
4:49
SPEAKER_00: And I I would tell my, I'd go back and tell myself, trust your gut more.
4:53
SPEAKER_00: If you're having conversations about this particular individual, it doesn't mean they're a bad individual, it just might mean they're in the wrong spot.
4:58
SPEAKER_00: Or maybe they are in the wrong company.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: And maybe you're doing them a disservice by keeping them on and not allowing them to go find a place that would be more suitable for them.
5:06
SPEAKER_00: I would trust my gut a little bit more.
5:08
SPEAKER_00: And then once you have the right people in the right positions, and I see this throughout our organization, and God, this is what brings me the greatest joy.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: And I will quote, I quote uh 38 Special to say, you can hold on loosely, but don't let go.
5:23
SPEAKER_00: Let them do their thing.
5:25
SPEAKER_00: Let them go do their jobs, and you don't have to micromanage or have any sort of like, um, let me see your, you know, your reports or any of that.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: Can I see your business plan?
5:36
SPEAKER_01: You can talk about one of the activities that you're doing.
5:38
SPEAKER_00: Uh it's so wonderful.
5:40
SPEAKER_00: And it is such, it's that is it's probably its biggest blessing for me since we started the company is watching people in different departments flourish and take off, and they feel the same passion and what they do that I felt in starting the company.
5:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:53
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think when you give people that freedom, they also probably outperform your expectations of them too.
5:59
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes like you take a pause and you take a little bit of inventory of everybody that's on the team.
6:05
SPEAKER_01: Now, this is, you know, we're a company today that has over 250 employees, but I'm I'm talking about like a branch that maybe has seven or eight.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: And let's sit down for a minute and let's talk about who everybody is, what role they play, right?
6:18
SPEAKER_01: And because we need to scale to the next level, where do we look at people's jobs even shrinking a little bit?
6:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: Right.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: So, like you go back to the beginning of the story is you guys did everything, right?
6:31
SPEAKER_01: But at some point, the as we've grown, your job and Patrick's job and Rebecca's job have all gotten more narrow over time.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: Sort of narrow and deeper versus shallow and wide.
6:42
SPEAKER_00: Shallow and wide, yeah.
6:43
SPEAKER_00: I think we're gonna see this uh as it pertains to loan officers and particularly loan officer assistants with this technology that's you know the the way that AI is progressing and the way that AI can do a lot of the, you know, whether it's keystroking or data aggregation or proactive communication, things that you might rely on a on a loan partner or a loan officer assistant, the technology is going to be able to do that.
7:06
SPEAKER_00: Does that mean loan officer assistants go away?
7:08
SPEAKER_00: No.
7:09
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely not.
7:10
SPEAKER_00: Does it mean their role evolves?
7:11
SPEAKER_00: 100% it will evolve.
7:13
SPEAKER_00: And what it should evolve to if you're smart, is business development.
7:19
SPEAKER_00: Right.
7:20
SPEAKER_00: How does the LOA become more of a business development backbone logistics coordinator to help tee this stuff up for the originator who's out there developing relationships?
7:31
SPEAKER_00: How can they facilitate that?
7:34
SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna necessarily need you to be the logistics expert in the next decade like I needed that in the last decade.
7:41
SPEAKER_00: But I'm still going to need you if we're gonna propel this thing forward.
7:44
SPEAKER_00: I'm still going to need capable, smart people.
7:47
SPEAKER_00: You're but your role's gonna have to evolve.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: And I think that that is no different for you know me.
7:53
SPEAKER_00: Like my role will evolve as a salesperson for sure.
7:56
SPEAKER_00: And as a CEO, also understanding all right, where do I implement the technology to relieve the thing that doesn't necessarily make you special?
8:04
SPEAKER_00: This is what I would tell salespeople this all the time.
8:07
SPEAKER_00: No one comes to do business with me at Highland Mortgage because of my wonderful keystroking abilities.
8:12
SPEAKER_00: As great of a typer as I am, there's not one person who said, Man, it was the typing that got me.
8:17
SPEAKER_00: So, like, like talk to 1003 as a means of taking an application.
8:22
SPEAKER_00: You take an application verbally and let artificial intelligence convert it into text and populate a 1003.
8:30
SPEAKER_00: I can stay focused on you, the client, and hear what you have to say.
8:33
SPEAKER_00: I'm no longer doing this.
8:35
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
8:35
SPEAKER_00: But this isn't what made me special to begin with.
8:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right, solving problems better.
8:40
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
8:40
SPEAKER_00: So the human experience of it, the human element of it, and it's no different.
8:44
SPEAKER_00: I'll I'll talk about my assistant James, who is an incredible human being.
8:48
SPEAKER_00: I've known him for a couple of decades.
8:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, his role will evolve from being more logistics.
8:54
SPEAKER_00: I need to make sure all of these different loose ends talk to each other.
8:58
SPEAKER_00: Well, when they start talking to each other elegantly and seamlessly, well, then his role will have to evolve to being more client-facing.
9:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:05
SPEAKER_00: Right.
9:05
SPEAKER_00: Which I know he can do.
9:07
SPEAKER_00: 100%.
9:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:07
SPEAKER_01: I mean, at the end of the day, you know, at growth is messy.
9:13
SPEAKER_01: All right.
9:13
SPEAKER_01: And it does show some holes, and we'll get to that whole, the whole part in a second.
9:16
SPEAKER_01: But growth is messy, and especially when you're doing it as fast as, say, like you've experienced over the last couple of years, where everybody's role does have to shift or change a little bit.
9:29
SPEAKER_01: But what I feel like you've done a remarkable job at is how do we show these people that we still value them at a high enough level that we're gonna walk them through this?
9:40
SPEAKER_01: Like we understand you don't like change.
9:42
SPEAKER_01: None of us do, right?
9:43
SPEAKER_01: Right, because that requires change within us, but we value you enough in what you do to walk you through what the next steps look like.
9:51
SPEAKER_00: Right.
9:52
SPEAKER_00: This conversation is so big around AI, right?
9:55
SPEAKER_00: And it's hard to get through any conversation these days without touching on AI.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: And I sometimes it's just exhausting to have to go back to this topic, but it is such a big freaking topic, Brian.
10:04
SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh I know you know that.
10:05
SPEAKER_00: I was reading this article in and uh on the New York Post this morning, and it was an interview with Elon Musk, and Elon Musk was basically saying if you're contributing to a 401k or an IRA, you may as well stop.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: Because there's going to be so much abundance in in the next 10 to 50 years because of AI, AI will be doing generating so much revenue that you won't need a retirement to save for retirement.
10:30
SPEAKER_00: And he was so bullish at that thought, right?
10:33
SPEAKER_00: So bullish at the thought that AI will do all of the menial work, but it requires, you know, very little and it doesn't require medical benefits, it doesn't require time off, it doesn't get sick.
10:44
SPEAKER_00: And there will be so much abundance for all of us, there's really no need for you to save any longer.
10:50
SPEAKER_00: This is Elon Musk talking.
10:52
SPEAKER_00: I'm direct quoting.
10:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:54
SPEAKER_00: At the opposite end of that spectrum, you'll have people say the world's coming to an end.
10:58
SPEAKER_00: AI is taking all your jobs, there's going to be 40% on the city.
11:01
SPEAKER_00: I need to ramp up the savings.
11:03
SPEAKER_00: Right.
11:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
11:03
SPEAKER_00: Right.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, what what do I think?
11:06
SPEAKER_00: What where does that leave us as business owners knowing that we have to implement this technology?
11:12
SPEAKER_00: I I don't really subscribe to either of those schools of thought.
11:15
SPEAKER_00: Now, obviously, Elon's pretty smart dude.
11:17
SPEAKER_00: He's a trillionaire.
11:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
11:18
SPEAKER_00: But um got a couple bucks.
11:20
SPEAKER_00: A few bucks.
11:20
SPEAKER_00: He's made some right calls.
11:22
SPEAKER_00: I just think it will it will change how we work, just like computers changed how we work, just like the combine changed how we work, like the industrial revolution changed how we work.
11:32
SPEAKER_00: It's going to change how we work.
11:34
SPEAKER_00: If you're if you refuse to change how you work, you're gonna become obsolete.
11:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, and I know that that's not always comfortable news to hear, but the good news is I think if you're willing to evolve, there is a there's a place for you.
11:49
SPEAKER_00: 100%.
11:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: I think uh listen, I think for any of us in any career at any time, forget the AI race, right?
11:55
SPEAKER_01: And I was sharing with you earlier, like I heard that described um recently on a podcast as like the arms race of the 1980s, like that we're in this AI arms race.
12:05
SPEAKER_01: Um, I think before all of this, if you didn't have that mindset, you were less valuable.
12:11
SPEAKER_01: You know?
12:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: I just think now it's elevated or magnified.
12:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's definitely magnified.
12:17
SPEAKER_00: Uh for 20, I've been doing this 21 years.
12:19
SPEAKER_00: For 20 years, I have quoted the exact same way.
12:23
SPEAKER_00: Exact same way.
12:24
SPEAKER_00: It's never changed.
12:24
SPEAKER_00: I use the same, it's now I I might have added a couple of terms here or there, but I've used the same general backbone of an Excel spreadsheet.
12:32
SPEAKER_00: I use the relatively the same pre-approval letter.
12:35
SPEAKER_00: It's a it's got a different logo on it.
12:36
SPEAKER_00: Maybe I've added a few enhancements, but it's basically the same thing.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: I don't do any of that anymore.
12:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:41
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and that has changed with the advent of AI.
12:44
SPEAKER_00: And it's altogether exciting, a little unnerving.
12:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but but you do have to kind of decide, hey, I I gotta jump in here and learn this.
12:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:52
SPEAKER_01: So going back to like I I said uh made a statement just a minute ago that growth is messy and it show hole shows holes.
12:58
SPEAKER_01: Maybe we could put those together.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: They're the same thing, but in that vein, can you talk a little bit about what some of that messy has looked like, or maybe some of the holes that it that it showed you that you were able to work through?
13:11
SPEAKER_00: Um so some of it it's people, some of it's people, some of it's expense.
13:16
SPEAKER_00: So people that you love, that you've known, that you spent your whole career with, that you wound up promoting into a position of management when that wasn't their strength.
13:25
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
13:26
SPEAKER_00: Their strength was doing.
13:27
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
13:28
SPEAKER_00: They're awesome at doing the job, but when you extract them from doing the job and put them over people that are doing the job, that sometimes doesn't work super well.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: That's almost like taking a lead guitarist and saying, You're no longer playing lead guitar, you're a musical director.
13:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:45
SPEAKER_00: Some lead guitarists can do that.
13:47
SPEAKER_00: A lot of lead guitarists can't.
13:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:49
SPEAKER_00: They just want to play that thing.
13:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:51
SPEAKER_00: You know?
13:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:52
SPEAKER_00: And that I think that's a really big challenge, was a really big challenge for us early on.
13:56
SPEAKER_00: And it and it was a tough because a lot of these people had personal relationships with.
13:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I get that.
13:59
SPEAKER_01: I I had a similar scenario well over a decade ago, maybe probably even longer, where we had somebody in a role that was exceptionally good at it.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: And my thought process was if I take that person out of that role and just ask them to duplicate the way they do that role among all of the people that they're going to manage, that this thing would take off.
14:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:23
SPEAKER_01: Nope.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: Didn't happen.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: And I listen, I had the same thing.
14:26
SPEAKER_01: Like the first promotion I ever got in in like my life, I was in retail before I got into the mortgage business.
14:32
SPEAKER_01: They think like big big box retailers.
14:35
SPEAKER_01: And I got promoted from store manager to district sales manager.
14:38
SPEAKER_01: And I thought this is easy.
14:39
SPEAKER_01: Like I was the top store manager in the district.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: I'm just going to get all these guys and gals to do things exactly the way that I did them, and we're going to have the number one district in the company.
14:49
SPEAKER_00: Right.
14:50
SPEAKER_01: Did not work.
14:52
SPEAKER_01: Right.
14:52
SPEAKER_01: And the reason is I didn't give people the freedom to excel in their strengths because I was trying to get them to excel in mine.
15:02
SPEAKER_00: So uh in 2008, uh ish time frame, maybe 2007, I started going to this one particular church here in Atlanta, and the pastor there just gave these great sermons, you know, and I was kind of trying to find my place in that particular community.
15:16
SPEAKER_00: And one of the things he said is whenever you feel this tension inside of you, his quote was pay attention to the tension.
15:24
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
15:25
SPEAKER_00: Pay attention to the tension.
15:26
SPEAKER_00: Don't ignore the tension.
15:27
SPEAKER_00: Like whenever you feel a tension inside of you about someone in a particular uh position or a piece of or like a vendor or a third party you've gotten in business with and you're feeling this tension about that, or a direction that your company's going, or a loan type that you've decided to start doing, pay attention to the tension.
15:43
SPEAKER_00: And don't just ignore it.
15:46
SPEAKER_00: That's your obligation in any capacity, whether you're a leader of a department, a leader of a branch, or a leader of business.
15:53
SPEAKER_00: It's your obligation to sit down and have a discussion about why do I feel this way about this thing?
15:59
SPEAKER_00: Is it just because it's new or is it because it's not congruent with who we are?
16:04
SPEAKER_00: It's we're not going to get there going down this road.
16:06
SPEAKER_00: I need to back out of this.
16:08
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
16:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:08
SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of times that's hard to do when we're in the grind.
16:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:11
SPEAKER_01: Right?
16:12
SPEAKER_01: Or we're riding on the bullet train.
16:13
SPEAKER_01: Things are just happening so fast.
16:15
SPEAKER_01: Things are growing so fast.
16:16
SPEAKER_01: We're trying to react to everything that's in front of us.
16:19
SPEAKER_01: A lot of times we don't slow down long enough to have those honest conversations with ourselves.
16:24
SPEAKER_00: There's this great, you know, like if you're a football team and you have a crap ton of dysfunction in your locker room.
16:30
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you got prima donnas over here and you got people over there that are holding out for more money, but you're winning and you're, you know, you're winning titles and you're winning, you'll put up with a lot of dysfunction because you're winning.
16:40
SPEAKER_00: You're making money, right?
16:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
16:42
SPEAKER_00: But as soon as the winning stops, as soon as there's a little couple of losses in there, boy, all of it gets exposed.
16:48
SPEAKER_00: You know?
16:48
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes.
16:49
SPEAKER_00: One of my favorite quotes was uh you don't know who's swimming naked until the tide goes out.
16:53
SPEAKER_00: And uh and that I I think that if there's one thing that the pandemic ending, inflation going to 9.1%, mortgage rates, you know, tripling, going from the mid-twos to you know, up over six, seven percent, at one point approaching eight percent.
17:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah I I think if there's one thing it did, is it it will it really expose whatever dysfunction you have, and you're not just winning by virtue of showing up and fogging a mirror, and now it's time to get down to work.
17:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
17:20
SPEAKER_00: Mark, any closing thoughts here as we wrap it up?
17:23
SPEAKER_00: So do I look really geeky?
17:26
SPEAKER_00: Is it bad?
17:27
SPEAKER_00: I I think it's a cool look.
17:28
SPEAKER_00: Actually, it's like like nerd is cool now.
17:30
SPEAKER_00: Because does it make my nose look big?
17:32
SPEAKER_01: Because my I know my nose isn't normally that big.
17:34
SPEAKER_01: Uh maybe you need one of those Groucho Mark's mustaches.
17:37
SPEAKER_01: Right.
17:37
SPEAKER_01: That would just that would just complete the look.
17:39
SPEAKER_00: Got it.
17:42
SPEAKER_01: All right, listen, thanks for joining us on another episode of the Ground Game.
17:45
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17:50
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17:53
SPEAKER_01: Appreciate your time.
17:54
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