Latest / The Psychology of Relationships / The Most Important Ingredient for a Healthy Relationship: How Conflict Can Actually Bring You Closer w/ Vienna Pharaon & Connor Beaton

Transcript

The Most Important Ingredient for a Healthy Relationship: How Conflict Can Actually Bring You Closer w/ Vienna Pharaon & Connor Beaton · The Psychology of Relationships

• 0:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Julie Kraftcheck and I'm U.A.S.U.A.U.
• 0:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is the psychology of relationships.
• 0:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: The reality is, no relationship is perfect, conflict happens, sometimes we hurt each other, and rupture the connection, even in the healthiest of relationships.
• 0:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: And here's the thing, where really matters is how we respond.
• 0:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Accountability is the key, owning your mistakes, being honest, and committing to making things right, can turn a fight into a chance to grow closer.
• 0:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: When you show up ready to repair, you rebuild trust and remind each other you matter, this relationship matters.
• 0:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: You may be familiar with the Gotmans, but if you aren't, John and Julie Gotman are world-renowned for relationship researchers and psychologists who've spent over four decades studying what makes couples succeed or fail.
• 1:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: The Gotmans found that couples who successfully repair after conflict have a 70% chance of staying together for the long term.
• 1:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it makes sense now that when we sat down with the power couple, Vienna, Farad, and Connor Beaten, to talk about how to have a healthy relationship, the majority of time was discussing conflicts in repair.
• 1:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Vienna and Connor aren't just a couple we admire, but they're also seasoned professionals in the relationship space.
• 1:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Vienna is a licensed marriage and family therapist based in New York City.
• 1:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: With over 15 years of experience, she specializes in helping individuals and couples identify and heal patterns from their family of origin that impact current relationships.
• 1:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Vienna is the founder of Mindful Marriage and Family Therapy, and is known for her compassionate approach to therapy.
• 1:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: She is also the author of the best seller of the origins of you, how breaking family patterns can liberate the way we live in love.
• 1:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: A book that explores how early family dynamics shape our adult relationships.
• 2:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Connor Beaton is the founder of Man Talks, an international organization focused on men's wellness, success, and fulfillment.
• 2:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: He is also the author of the bestselling book, Men's Work, a practical guide to face your darkness, and self-sabotage, and find freedom.
• 2:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Connor has spent nearly a decade working with men to help them navigate challenges, related to mental clarity, relational communication, and personal growth.
• 2:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: They've experienced firsthand what it takes to make their own relationship thrive, while also drung on insights from the many clients they've guided.
• 2:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: When we recorded this episode, they just had their first child, which as we know is one of the biggest relationships dress tasks, even for strong couples.
• 2:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: We truly believe repair is the number one skill to have in a relationship.
• 2:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not about ever breaking.
• 2:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's about willing to fix what's broken and move forward stronger together.
• 2:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Remember to go to Apple Podcasts Spotify or wherever you get your podcast and leave us a rating and review.
• 3:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: And better yet, a comment about what you learned from this episode.
• 3:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is the psychology of relationships and you're listening to an episode that might just change the way you show up for love.
• 3:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: So what is a healthy relationship?
• 3:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think all I learn these days is that your relationship is really informed by your childhood and you're upbringing.
• 3:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: So if you know that you're upbringing, to not give you the best example of a healthy relationship, how do we know what a healthy relationship is?
• 3:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: So this is why we're having this discussion with Connor Beaton and Vienna Farron, who
• 3:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: you have been studying this and can give us examples of what a healthy relationship is that how to build wine with your partner, but let's really start with a two of you.
• 3:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Can you share a little backstory of how you two met and became a couple?
• 4:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
• 4:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: You want to start?
• 4:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: We attribute this to our dear friend Mark Rose.
• 4:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, I hate the love on Instagram.
• 4:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: A dear friend to both of us.
• 4:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: We met through Mark.
• 4:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: We were speaking at a conference together years ago and the relationship obviously developed over time.
• 4:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: Connor was living in Vancouver.
• 4:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: I was living in New York City at the time and yeah, so we had to do a lot long distance for What do you think like a year and a half or so or longer?
• 4:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, really like navigating what it was like to be on two different coasts two different countries I'll be at pretty close to one another different time zones all of that and then eventually somehow convincing concert
• 4:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: to move east and yeah and gosh I don't know we got engaged we got married we just had our first child together yeah first child not just together it's our free child altogether first child all together yeah the only child and yeah just like growing through life together doing the things but yeah I mean really
• 5:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: all the differences and and challenges that but yeah what would you add?
• 5:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah I mean I think like with love comes logistics you know there's always going to be things that you need to figure out always doesn't matter on the couple doesn't matter the relationship I think it's just one of those things where just because you fall in love with somebody doesn't mean that
• 5:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's sort of smooth sailing and so we had a lot to figure out, you know, my business was rooted in Vancouver, Canada.
• 5:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: I was living there.
• 5:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, it was in New York and so there really was a lot to sort of sort out in the meeting in the relationship.
• 5:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: But, you know, we met through a mutual friend.
• 5:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: We had a lot in common and I think it was just one of those, one of those things where we contributed to one of those lives in a really powerful way and a palpable way.
• 6:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: So did you guys know from like the get go that you would like found your person or did it kind of evolve over time?
• 6:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I think a little bit of bow, it's like definitely it was interesting that before we started dating I was in New York and we had just like through a like through our friend connected and she had reached out because I put up a post to say I'm in New York and I want to like go out and meet whoever's here and so she had just hit me up and and I went out with her and a couple of her friends and I remember having this experience where
• 6:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: I went and met her out of her apartment and knocked on the door.
• 6:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: She welcomed me inside.
• 6:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's not finished getting ready yet And I sit down on the couch and I can see her.
• 6:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's in the bathroom doing her hair.
• 6:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's getting finishing up getting ready and just like this voice in my head goes off and it's like you're gonna marry
• 6:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: this woman.
• 6:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know this woman.
• 6:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know this woman.
• 6:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's like a stranger on the street and that's the most random thing ever.
• 7:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: Fast forward.
• 7:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: How much, how much time was it after that?
• 7:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: That we actually started connecting like four months, five months.
• 7:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: So anyway, we go out on this night on the town.
• 7:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: We go out for dinner.
• 7:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: and then we part ways.
• 7:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: We don't take it to this phone number.
• 7:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: We don't stay in contact.
• 7:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: We just totally went our own way and then we, you know, see each other again in this conference months later and really hit it off.
• 7:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so yeah, and then the rest is kind of history.
• 7:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: this was the first time you met that you're describing.
• 7:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
• 7:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I mean, we attacked technically we had met once before in like shook hands.
• 7:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: But that was that was a different event in Vancouver.
• 7:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, oh, hi, I'm Connor Oha, I'm Vienna.
• 7:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: So different context.
• 7:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: So Connor, you knew pretty early on then.
• 7:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: So I mean, something, yes, something new pretty early.
• 7:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Vienna, what about you?
• 7:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: I, yeah, I, it was actually, there was something deep inside of me that knew that this man was, I don't know if I knew for sure that you were going to be my husband, but I knew that there was something very deep in there that was going to make me commit to what we were having to go through
• 8:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know that I would have pursued or stayed in the pursuit and the receiving of the pursuit.
• 8:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: If I wasn't like so connected to, yeah, like this is going to be someone for me.
• 8:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: Again, I mean, I guess I didn't know for a certain, obviously, but yeah, I think pretty early on that we joke because Connor,
• 8:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: all the New York City folks all understand this.
• 8:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: But Connor came to town from Vancouver and for our first state was like wearing these orange shorts and like I mean it's like it does not have enough black in his
• 8:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: I was like wait, I don't understand what this is and we're like, we joke around about it as it was almost a deal breaker that first Hey, that's how you know he's different.
• 9:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know he's different.
• 9:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: We laugh so hard about that, but
• 9:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, he came through and to New York and we spent some time together and then he wound up going to Miami.
• 9:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: He was coming through for work and I remember at one point after we had gone in many dates.
• 9:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: He was in Miami at the time and I said, I would really like for you to come back.
• 9:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: And again, sort of just like a gut thing of, there's something more here.
• 9:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'd really like for you to not fly back to Vancouver after this.
• 9:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'd like for you to fly back to New York City and he wound up doing it.
• 9:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think both of us agree that had you gone back to Vancouver.
• 9:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if we would have continued the relationship.
• 9:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: because we were like 3,000 miles apart.
• 9:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's nice, like a wee, what the hell are we actually doing?
• 9:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
• 10:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think neither of us were really interested in pursuing a long-term relationship.
• 10:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: I know that wasn't, that was not on my agenda, like I was not on my agenda.
• 10:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: You mean a long-term or long-distance, or a long-distance, or a long-distance, or a long-distance, or a long-distance, or a long-distance, or a long-distance, or a long-distance, or a long-distance, or a long-distance, or a long-distance, or a long-distance, or a long-distance, or a long-distance, or a long-distance, or a long-distance, or a long-distance, or a long-distance, or a long-distance, or a long-distance, or a long
• 10:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: I had been single the last relationship that I had been in was a relationship that I thought would be someone that I would have would have married and it was a big it was a big loss for me and even though there had been time and space between it I think there was still a part that wondered or thought maybe this person would reenter into my world.
• 10:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: yeah there was a tenderness there right it was like you know this person had had re-entered another relationship and Connor was actually coming off of a relationship and so it was interesting because it was a very there was familiarity to for me in my experience that there was familiarity and like oh like this is really tender and raw
• 11:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: I've been in the situation before where a person can change their mind and go back into a dynamic that they had before and, you know, as Connor was exiting this relationship, for me there was a sensitivity there was like, oh, this is either like my wounding or this is going to be such a beautiful healing opportunity for
• 11:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: me, looking at that line is so thin and it's so heart-right, it's like wisdom and discernment and yeah, like our awareness and our ability to have these conversations with each other is oftentimes right that difference maker between just being in a pattern and versus being in the healing of something that gives us that new ending.
• 11:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm grateful that course where our relationship developed into was, was the healing for me.
• 11:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: But there were times in the beginning stages where Connor was definitely sort of pulling me back off the edge a bit because I was like, ah, this is, you know, I know this, you know, this is so familiar for me and I definitely don't want to experience the same thing, you know, over and over and over again.
• 12:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so yeah, there was definitely a rawnest there, even though there had been a lot more space between the ending of my previous relationship than for Connor.
• 12:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there was like this fear of history repeating itself that like he was potentially get back with a next girlfriend.
• 12:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Is that kind of what was showing that for you?
• 12:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I wasn't sure that I was going to go back.
• 12:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: No, I didn't know that.
• 12:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't know that I was concerned about that, but I think just sort of like your full availability, right?
• 12:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
• 12:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: Got it.
• 12:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: Got it.
• 12:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: But it's like a normal question, right?
• 12:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's like if somebody's coming out of a relationship how much time do you normally need after that relationship?
• 12:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: Because it was, you know, it was a more long-term relationship that I had ended, that I had exited.
• 12:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so there was apprehension on her part.
• 12:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.
• 12:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: I see.
• 12:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that makes sense, right?
• 12:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's even if you haven't gotten out of a relationship recently, we're constantly wondering how ready, any other person is.
• 13:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes we just don't know.
• 13:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: So something you said earlier, Connor, that made me think, oh, that's so true with love comes logistics.
• 13:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: So what do you think is the chicken or the egg here?
• 13:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you figure out the love part first and then the logistics?
• 13:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Or do you figure out the logistics and then figure out the love part?
• 13:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: What was it for YouTube?
• 13:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I think in part it was like pursuing whether or not the connection that we had was something that we wanted to navigate the logistics of because that, you know, it's sometimes you're like, I like you and I appreciate you, but the challenges and the obstacles that come along with this relationship maybe aren't realistic and that's maybe a pretty direct.
• 13:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: Way of looking at it, but I think for us it was like that time where I went back to New York and flew back there and we spent you know another a week or two together That was sort of like this feeling out process of okay, are we going to invest in developing this relationship?
• 13:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: And we were both pretty clear and pretty realistic with each other at that time because you know, where we were also at was building our businesses, you know, we were both professionals, both building our business.
• 14:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, so being honest and up front and transparent about what was important to us at that moment in our life was also, I think pretty crucial to that.
• 14:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, I think
• 14:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think it really is about understanding the connection that you and the other person have, but before getting lost in the logistics.
• 14:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: So I think people can go into, this is impossible, or there's all these challenges.
• 14:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: And especially when people are getting together when it's mixed families, right?
• 14:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's like people have been divorced before and they have kids that they're bringing into it.
• 14:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's like you can get caught up in all the practicalities and that can erode your capacity to see
• 14:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: to genuineness and the authenticity and the potency of the connection.
• 14:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so I think, you know, we, I think we did a good job of exploring the connection first.
• 14:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: And then once we were sort of secure with that saying, like, okay, now, now how do we logistically make this work?
• 15:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: What is this actually going to look like and how do we explore these conversations?
• 15:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's a good segue because obviously we wanted you both on this podcast because we see you and think of you as kind of like the A pit of you of what a healthy relationship looks like so be curious one first of all What do you define a healthy relationship and then I guess the second part is like where there ever peaks of the relationship that were kind of like Maybe I don't know if the word is unhealthy is the right word, but you know like a differing feeling of where you are today
• 15:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
• 15:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think that what goes into it for me is the self and the relational awareness.
• 15:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's like, of course, we are not in a perfect dynamic.
• 15:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, we have, you know, our conflict and things that require attention from from the two of us to move through the challenges, the things that are confronting for us.
• 15:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: But I think what allows for that to happen is our commitment to our own awareness of the self and our commitment to the relational awareness, right?
• 16:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: Meaning what's happening in the system right between the two of us and also kind of relationally like I know Connor very well.
• 16:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: I trust that Connor knows himself the best, but I know Connor probably second best.
• 16:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, and I think that's in return too.
• 16:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I know his inner world, you know?
• 16:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: I know his inner world, I know his inner map, I know the things that are going on in his life, in his fears, in the doubts, in the insecurities, et cetera.
• 16:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: I know what plays out in the family system, and he knows that about me too.
• 16:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: And we know those things because we talk about those things, right?
• 16:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: We're committed to sharing vulnerable and intimately with one another.
• 16:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: We want each other to understand each other's inner worlds.
• 16:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: There aren't a lot of question marks there.
• 16:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't actually don't think that we have many question marks really at all.
• 16:54
  [SPEAKER_02]: We kind of lay it out there and because of that, right?
• 16:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: Because we have an inner working and inner understanding of the others and our worlds, right?
• 17:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: Then there's so much beauty that can happen from that.
• 17:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: To me, that is a huge pillar of what allows for a, whether you want to call it a healthy relationship, a functional relationship.
• 17:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: a productive relationship, a relationship where we have the tools to be able to navigate the things that are inevitably going to show up.
• 17:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: That is what I believe allows it to happen.
• 17:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: We need to be able to take a look at ourselves and we need to be able to take a deep look at each other.
• 17:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think we do that in generally in a really beautiful way, one where we have compassion for the self and each other.
• 17:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, okay, I'm human, you're human.
• 17:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: And we also strike a really nice balance of the accountability and ownership and responsibility, right?
• 17:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, we can understand anything, why somebody does something, why somebody would say something, right?
• 17:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: With enough context, it all makes sense.
• 17:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: But we also need to have ownership, responsibility, accountability for like,
• 17:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, and that's still crossed a line or and there wasn't that boundary there or and this still really hurt my feelings or there was a betrayal there or you know, whatever it is fill in the blank and so yeah, I think that I would say that for us at least what what makes our relationship, you know, function well is when we are tuned in to our own selves and each other.
• 18:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: Right, when we're up to speed on that, when we're able to look at those parts, where there's not a whole lot of defensiveness, right?
• 18:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like we're like, there it is, yep, you know, and like being able to call that part forward, right?
• 18:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: There's so much tenderness around that when we're talking about fears and securities doubts are shadow, but I think we do a beautiful job of holding this stuff that a lot of people don't like to touch.
• 18:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: you know a lot of people don't like to say like this is what I'm insecure about you know it's like fuck gulp right like people don't want to admit that and I think Connor and I uh kind of just admit everything you know to each other and that allows for a lot of movement and navigation and the things that uh like I said inevitably will show up in any relationship.
• 19:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think what makes a healthy relationship is that the relationship becomes a vehicle for both people to expand within and expand.
• 19:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: It can mean many, many different things.
• 19:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: But I think often times that requires a type of radical transparency or honesty that people are terrified of.
• 19:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, the truth is sometimes a really scary thing that we don't want to
• 19:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is kind of related to Julie's part two question, which is what were some of the more challenging points in your relationship, but I also want to relate that back to something you said, which is you feel up to speed about each other, but
• 19:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I do feel like in a lot of relationships in times of conflict, people hold back as opposed to revealing more about themselves.
• 19:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: So can you give us kind of a concrete example of maybe a conflict or challenge where both of you were able to lean in and reveal to your partner about yourselves?
• 20:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: one of the major conflicts is like where do we live, you know, that was one for a while of like where where do we occupy our lives and how do we make this decision to either be in Vancouver or be in New York or be somewhere else entirely and that
• 20:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: you know, that was a conversation that took a long time because there was a lot of skin in the game, right?
• 20:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's like our businesses, you know, who's going to move, who's who's business was going to adjust and the reality was it was that I was much more flexible on that.
• 20:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like just logistically, it was easier for me to move to New York, but there was also a kind of sacrifice in that because I love nature.
• 20:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so New York City is a concrete jungle and, you know,
• 20:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's a very different lifestyle.
• 20:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: So I think initially that was a challenging maneuver, but we worked through it through a lot of open communication, me sitting some very clear expectations around timeline.
• 21:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: I definitely am not moving there to live there for the rest of my life.
• 21:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not interested in that.
• 21:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so you know there's a lot like right now we live upstate New York on a lake and so we don't live in the city anymore.
• 21:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so, you know, a lot of it was about having these hard conversations where, you know, just because we were in a relationship together and love each other didn't mean that we did both didn't have to then make decisions about how we were going to co-create the life that we that we saw for ourselves.
• 21:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, would you anything to that or did you have a different example?
• 21:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: Come on.
• 21:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I was just going to talk a little bit about, like, our different, um, conflict style.
• 21:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
• 21:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
• 21:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, like, because, you know, I'm thinking about, although I, I don't know that it plays out as much as it used to, but I, I was definitely more like active and conflict than, than you were.
• 21:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: And, and certainly true, like when we look at our family systems, right?
• 22:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: and the way that both of us grew up, yeah, like Connor, well, you can speak for your experience.
• 22:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I grew up in a family system with a mom and a dad and they separated and then divorced for nine years, no other siblings, neither one of them remarried or really even dated anybody.
• 22:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so, yeah, I was part of this kind of tiny system.
• 22:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: And there was a ton of conflict and hostility through the separation and the divorce process that was very long and I was tiny.
• 22:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: I was in first grade when it began.
• 22:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, there was just like a lot of fighting, a lot of tension, a lot of manipulation, a lot of gaslighting, a lot of paranoia, a lot of emotional flooding.
• 22:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, like literally everything you could possibly think of was part of that experience.
• 22:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: that will all be in the book.
• 22:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: It'll all be in the book.
• 22:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I learned how to engage with a system that operated that way.
• 23:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: And especially my father, who was a master at manipulation, he was very quick with his words, he was
• 23:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, even before like the term gas lighter, you know, was was even popularized right it was like there was a lot of manipulation and yeah just like quick on his feet right and OG gas lighter.
• 23:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah
• 23:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I, you know, I always talk about obviously part of my work is under family systems and origin stories.
• 23:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think about the origin story, right?
• 23:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: And the first time, right, where I was observing, right, both through observation and through experience, the manipulation really wasn't directed at me as a kid.
• 23:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: But I watched the manipulation with my mom.
• 23:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: And, and I saw, in her, someone who was not able to stay on her toes and keep up.
• 23:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: And it was confusing
• 24:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: destabilizing for her.
• 24:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so I watched as a little kid and I saw what he was doing.
• 24:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so I talk about how like when you are a kid who's, you know, reality is being denied or you're watching manipulation.
• 24:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like there's something about this need to be right that emerges, right?
• 24:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I would battle with my dad at a certain point and be like, nope, that's not what you said or nope, that's not what you did.
• 24:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I was the only person who could actually catch and watch and like call him on the things that he was doing and kind of trip him up with it.
• 24:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: And that turned me into an adult who, you know, who needed to be right in conflict because right meant safety.
• 24:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: you know, right meant that I wasn't being duped.
• 24:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't being fooled.
• 24:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
• 24:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: That was a position of, you know, stabilization for me.
• 24:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so when Connor and I would get into conflict, there was this part that would emerge, right, where I needed to be right.
• 24:54
  [SPEAKER_02]: I needed to prove my point.
• 24:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: I would go to all lengths to show Connor that he was wrong and that I was right.
• 24:59
  [SPEAKER_02]: And.
• 25:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: So, so you when you're asking this question about like why it's important, right?
• 25:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like any couple can get stuck in that place.
• 25:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, that could be something that is a massive rupture in a relationship, right?
• 25:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: If you're not able to navigate out of that.
• 25:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: But because there is at least even if I'm blind to it in the moment, right?
• 25:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: There's a willingness to explore like, okay, what's showing up here, right?
• 25:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: And like,
• 25:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: you know, and even at the time, I mean, we've been together for, you know, five and a half years now, even when we started dating, I'm a therapist, I'm a family sister, you know.
• 25:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, I'm an expert, I'm a pro at this, right?
• 25:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's still these are still things, right, that I wasn't always able to catch or see or even know.
• 25:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so sometimes through relationship,
• 25:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: the the light focuses in on those things right it sheds light on these spots and there's a desire a willingness to say okay let me look at what's playing out here interesting usually what we see and in working with people and over the years is like people who get into relationships for another they consciously choose for another.
• 26:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: but they also unconsciously choose one another.
• 26:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so you might choose your partner, but so does your shadow, so does your insecurities and your inferior parts and your fears and your anxieties, those things also choose your partner.
• 26:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: People need to also be aware of that because your stuff's enabling you to show up in the relationship.
• 26:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so yeah, when we first started dating, she was very like conflict oriented.
• 26:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, no problem with it.
• 26:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like ready for battle, wanting to prove her point and that was like, what the hell is this, you know, like, I'm not, I'm not interested in this at all because Like in my, in my upbringing, I grew up between two families and conflict was either entirely avoided or incredibly volatile, like really, really volatile, right to the point of like physical abuse.
• 26:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: extremes, right?
• 26:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so for me, she had like conflict that I've joked around now then when we started dating her conflict was like a love language for, you know, there was lots of service, words of affirmation, and conflict, you know, and conflict, you want to go?
• 27:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: You want to go and so so I really had to start to adjust because I didn't understand what was going on until one day We were at her father's place and I saw the cycle that had been going on in our relationships showing up with her dad and I was like, oh
• 27:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: Shit, that's what's going on.
• 27:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's what you're doing to me, right?
• 27:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: You're just getting caught in this, you know, I got to see how I was showing up in that space where I used to be the guy that just avoided conflict altogether in a relationship right where somebody was unhappy You know, I'm not going to engage in this I'm going to go play video games and I don't care I'm going to go to the bar and have drinks with my buddies and
• 27:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so I would either disengage or become very sort of assertive to the point of like, I'm not putting up with this.
• 27:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so it was one or the other.
• 27:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so I started to have to find this more middle-ground orientation of standing my ground, setting them some boundaries being firm, but also understanding where, you know, where are you coming from?
• 28:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like, why do you need to prove your point right now?
• 28:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: What's actually behind the point that you're trying to make?
• 28:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: What's the emotional experience behind that?
• 28:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so that changed a lot.
• 28:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: So it's less about the details of the conflict and more about why we are engaging in conflict.
• 28:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: And that's what couples can get lost in, right?
• 28:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: As we get lost in the details of what we are arguing about versus what is the conflict that actually telling us about ourselves as individuals and about the relationship as a third entity.
• 28:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of it.
• 28:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it was like less specific things, but just more of how you two were like navigating each other in the dynamics between you.
• 28:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Interesting.
• 28:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there are so many questions I have, but I guess the first one is how did you come out of it?
• 28:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, because I know I think one of the myths that healthy relationships are going to be conflict free.
• 28:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's just not realistic from everything we've heard and what you just said.
• 28:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: But
• 28:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you do handle conflict well, it can bring you closer together.
• 29:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: How are you able to kind of make that shift from what you're just describing to more of a connection?
• 29:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, I do think that it's important for people to understand that that conflict is an inherent part of life of being a human being and you want to not that you want your relationship to be
• 29:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: completely devoid of conflict or be all conflict-oriented, but you want to start to develop a kind of anti-fragility within the relational dynamic, right?
• 29:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: You want to develop more assertiveness or more compassion as a result of getting into conflict within a relational dynamic.
• 29:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's not a bad thing, right?
• 29:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of conflict happens in a relationship because something's trying to sort itself out for you to have better intimacy, better connection, better understanding.
• 29:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: origin stories around conflict are really important for the, you know, for anybody who's listening right it's like, you know, what's attached to that word, you know, what's what's the story around it your job at first is to say like, yeah, like, what, what narrative do I hold here around conflict, what did I experience in these original templates right in these original experiences of conflict in our family systems, what did it look like right conflict can be abusive right conflicts can be passive aggression, it can be
• 30:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: putting things underneath the rug.
• 30:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: It can be never speaking about things.
• 30:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: It can be the silent treatment, right?
• 30:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like it can be an endless amount of things.
• 30:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so it's so important for each person to understand, like, what is associated with the word, right?
• 30:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: What is the association there?
• 30:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: Because most people are not like, I want to sign up for coffee, because most of the time, right, the experience with it is that it's negative, it's negative, we don't plan it.
• 30:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a pleasant, it doesn't lead anywhere good, right?
• 30:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: parents or caretakers of parental system navigating conflict in a really successful way.
• 30:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think part of what we talk about is seeing conflict as an opportunity for connection, for intimacy, for closeness, for understanding something,
• 31:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: new about yourself and the other, of course we don't want to hang out in the extremes like Connor was saying, but it's like if you're just happy all of the time in your relationship, beautiful, lovely, right?
• 31:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: But like there's not there's not a whole lot of newness that's going to happen in that space, right?
• 31:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: A new understanding of self or the other, right?
• 31:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: There needs to be
• 31:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: many ruptures and sometimes they're moderate and sometimes they're massive but there needs to be ruptures that that reveal something like like Connor was saying before and so I always say like conflict is like the set this flag in the sand that says like something very important is happening here that is so worth paying attention to.
• 31:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: If you are in conflict right if there's any kind of reactivity your system is telling you that there's something that predates this moment.
• 31:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah right that needs your
• 31:54
  [SPEAKER_02]: I just wanted to make sure that we started with like the origins of like how we relate to conflict as a working understanding of like why you might not be interested in being in conflict.
• 32:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: But seeing if there's a reframe here to say, okay, yeah, this is not thrilling and this is not fun, but I also understand that something very profound and healing continues here.
• 32:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's not just surface level.
• 32:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, and that's basically where I was going to start is that, you know, what we did, where we started our process was understanding and starting to communicate with each other about what our origin story was around conflict and how we were both individually showing up in the conflict within the relationship, right?
• 32:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: So point proving and then either avoidance,
• 32:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: or jackhammer, right?
• 32:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I'm going to shut this conversation down.
• 32:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like, sorry to understand each other in the sense of why we were approaching conflict from that perspective.
• 32:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: So that based level understanding, like a lot of people get into a relational dynamic and their married
• 32:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: and they don't even understand why their partner is reacting to a conflict or a discussion in a certain way.
• 33:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: So if you have a different understanding of like, oh, right, your father, try to manipulate you and gasoline you constantly and you feel like you need to protect yourself right now.
• 33:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I can have a lot of empathy for that.
• 33:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: But if I just am focused in on, your pissed off that I didn't take the garbage out
• 33:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: you know, or I forgot to buy something, then I get lost in my capacity to have empathy, understanding, compassion, et cetera.
• 33:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: So that's number one.
• 33:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: I would say a few other pieces.
• 33:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: We instituted like a cause for a pause, right?
• 33:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: So it's like when do we need to pause within our conversation if it's not going anywhere anymore?
• 33:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: And that was an individual responsibility, right?
• 33:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: So for me, if I
• 33:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: found that I was like completely shut down like I was checked out.
• 33:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: That was that was cause for a pause.
• 33:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's like I'm checked out.
• 33:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not even in this conversation.
• 33:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: We need to pause and the pause is important.
• 33:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: Right?
• 33:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's not saying I'm ending this conversation.
• 33:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's saying I need to pause this conversation for right now and we're going to revisit it and then we would communicate okay we're going to revisit this conversation later tonight or sometime tomorrow and then you know one of us would
• 34:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: The other thing I think is having some rules of engagement, you know, like we would have conversation about how we want to actually try and operate within conflict.
• 34:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: Knowing that you're going to get heated in those moments, knowing that you're going to get angry or shut down or run away or get anxious or whatever it is.
• 34:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: creating some basic rules, right?
• 34:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: So like what's okay and what's not okay within relational conflict?
• 34:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: Again, a lot of people don't put any structure around how they argue, how they have conflict.
• 34:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so sometimes anything goes, you know?
• 34:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so if you grew up in a household where, you know, just like thinking of a very specific client, like a written a very traditional Italian household, and so conflict was very loud, and there was name calling, and that was totally acceptable.
• 34:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: And but that doesn't work within within your marriage.
• 35:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so sometimes you need to have these very sort of basic rules and agreements that are in place that say this is how we're going to try and operate and if any of these agreements get broken, then we're not going to continue to engage that's another reason for us to pause.
• 35:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think something else that was really important was that once we understood, you know, the cycle that was playing out, if one of us had like more capacity in in that moment of conflict, which is true a lot of the time, right?
• 35:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes we're both heated and you're at the same level and you're like shoot this is what we need to take the pause and all the things.
• 35:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: But if you're at a place where like one of us has more of a capacity in that moment, right, more of the facilities are still there, I found it very helpful.
• 35:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: If I got into that space, for example, of needing to prove my point.
• 35:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: And he didn't get destabilized by it, right?
• 35:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: If he stayed really grounded in that moment and was like, be, what's going on?
• 36:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
• 36:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: It feels like you're trying to prove something.
• 36:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: So like, what's scary right now?
• 36:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: Or like, what's actually happening in your internal world, right?
• 36:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: There was something that was so, that was so, like, gentle, you know, like, and still very firm, right?
• 36:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: I could feel that I wasn't moving his stabilization.
• 36:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and there's something about, like, unconsciously, right?
• 36:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, when we get into the chaos, then it's like, let's go, you know?
• 36:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: To get destabilized again, not like a conscious thing that you're doing right, but like when you energetically can feel the groundedness right and then that commitment of like I love you what's happening there's something that sort of would move me out of that right where there's almost like a surrender very emotional actually
• 36:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: I remember many times when I'm in the point-proving position and role, you get like, I got in whatever and you can't get through my skin.
• 36:59
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's strong and it isn't hard and it is rough.
• 37:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: And there was something that was very softening about that.
• 37:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: So much that it was very emotional.
• 37:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like I would cry.
• 37:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: It was like a surrender of like, oh my gosh, like you got it, you see me.
• 37:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: And now I can let go of the need to prove anything right now.
• 37:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, again, I know that we're not always in those moments, right?
• 37:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes conflict gets us to a place where we are both very upset.
• 37:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: But I remember the first time that that happened, you know, early on in our relationship and just thinking like, oh my gosh.
• 37:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
• 37:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: like you're actually moving me out of a shame spiral by being able to stay grounded in the space because the moment that you continue on right is the moment that more of the shame enters in right you double down you triple down right now I'm like I'm proving my point and I'm really proving my point
• 37:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: You're proving my point and then you're like, what was my point?
• 37:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: What was my point?
• 37:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: You're just like, oh my gosh, this is awful and gross and you get into that space and it was such a profound thing to have someone love me so much in that moment to say, like, I'm not gonna go with you there, right?
• 38:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm right here.
• 38:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: I see you, I understand what's happening because we've had those conversations and we're gonna stand firm in this and I'm gonna love you through it.
• 38:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: And it was such a surrendering experience like the armor would come off and yeah, I could drop it then is it one really really brief it also was very helpful for us to label and like give a name to the dysfunctional versions of us that would show up in conflict right so you've probably heard us say it but like Vienna's was the point prouver and mine was the jackhammer.
• 38:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: Right, and so that was also helpful because we could then identify it's like, oh, she's really in the point prove her right now.
• 38:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's really trying that it's like, okay, I can hold space for this because I know I know where she's coming from or when I would go and like this jackhammer space.
• 38:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes she would just say it she'd be like your jackhammer right now.
• 38:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, she just look at me and be like good Jackhammer going to be like, yeah, I am able to let and yeah, so just put a label to that part and that can be a fun exploration as well for you.
• 39:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: Fun.
• 39:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Quick question.
• 39:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you two see a therapist individually?
• 39:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Individual, okay, so, okay.
• 39:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then my other question, my other question is, so it is enlightening to hear this conversation from the both of you, but not every relationship can be who you two are with your backgrounds, right?
• 39:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: So in, I guess these relationships where our listeners are listening to, I feel like one person has to lead the way to talk about conflict and how to cope with conflict,
• 39:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: So in your example, Connor, when you witness Vienna with her dad, how did that conversation go down when you had that light bulb moment of ah, I see this is why she handles conflict because I would love for that to set an example for people in relationships who kind of like want to instigate this conversation.
• 39:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it was just curiosity, you know, because I had also seen her with her mom, which was a very different form of conflict and so has like, okay, so it was just a lot of curiosity, like, what was it like growing up engaging with your mom when she wouldn't hear you or what was it like growing up when you're dad would, you know, when you would
• 40:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: see him try and manipulate your mom or you would see him gaslighting somebody you'd see him acting in this way.
• 40:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, to her credit, she did a good job of opening up and being able to communicate with that was like.
• 40:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so it's just a lot of curiosity, you know, what happens for you in those moments where you go at him, you know, when you attack, when you try and prove him wrong, when you, you know, turn into like lawyer.
• 40:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: And it was just it gave me a much broader understanding of you know what happens in her thoughts what happens physically in her body what happens emotionally underneath that and so just asking questions and getting curious about what was it like in the past what's it like right now what happens
• 40:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: what thoughts do you think, what emotions do you feel, what do you physically feel in the body, like do you want to run away, do you want to attack, do you want to, you know, whatever it is.
• 41:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: And, and that was kind of it.
• 41:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think that sometimes we underestimate the value of just understanding and getting a really robust full version of what's going on for somebody in the moment.
• 41:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: Right?
• 41:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: If we just leave with curiosity, you know, kind of like being a kid again, if you remember if you've been around a child and like the last, however long, they just ask endless questions, you know, they're just so freaking curious, but that's how they learn and so sometimes we need to bring that curiosity to our partner, because if we can have that type of context, then it can inform our decision making process of like, well, maybe I should engage differently, or maybe I can ask this question when you're heated or
• 41:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: or even I just understand what's going on for you in those moments and so I don't need to react because I know it's not about me.
• 41:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: So I think the biggest thing was I got really curious about what her experience was so that I could de-personalize it in the moments where it felt like it was personal, right?
• 42:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: Because that's why we get caught in conflict is if
• 42:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: I take it personally, what you're saying or, you know, you're unhappiness or disconnection or complaint or criticism, then it's a losing battle.
• 42:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: But if I can not take it personally, and I can hear what's happening, and that's a very different, it's a very different place to come from.
• 42:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: So I would just say curiosity, curiosity, curiosity, you know, ask questions about what it was like in the past, what it's like in the present, and let that inform your decision
• 42:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know what?
• 42:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: There is a sense of irony of like that we're talking about healthy relationships and we've spent the majority talking about conversation.
• 42:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
• 42:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
• 42:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think that that's for most couples dysfunctional conflict is the barrier for a healthy relationship.
• 42:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: And we live in a culture and a society that has sort of disneefed relationships and that sells the very fraudulent version of what love should look like.
• 42:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: Where there's no conflict and you don't have any issues and it's like, well, that's all bullshit.
• 43:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I think most people know it.
• 43:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: Most people know that if you want to be in relationship with somebody, you're going to have to go through some hard things.
• 43:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so I almost, you know, what I tell a lot of men is like find a partner that you want to do conflict with, you know, obviously somebody that you love, obviously somebody that you're attracted to, obviously somebody that you respect and all these things, but don't forget about this part because if you do, you might be screwed, right?
• 43:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: You might find yourself in relationship with somebody where you're like, I hate how you do conflict and now we're having to make these big decisions together and I don't want to deal with you.
• 43:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: And that builds resentment and that destroys and erodes intimacy and it collapses the relationship.
• 43:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so, you know, if you want to help the relationship, how you do conflict should be at the very forefront of the conversation.
• 43:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm, that's great.
• 43:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I was going to segue us to takeaways because I think that is like the master takeaway of this, but
• 43:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think, too, it's like, when think about, you know, happy, healthy relationships, it's the happy part of just things being good all the time and us, you know, not having that conflict.
• 44:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: But what I'm hearing here is it's not that we need to show up like a hundred percent, you know, quote unquote fix.
• 44:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, that's just not realistic in general.
• 44:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're always doing work on ourselves.
• 44:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's how do we get to know our partner?
• 44:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do we listen to our partner?
• 44:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I love this like curiosity about the partner.
• 44:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: And how all of that is what takes like surface level and makes it go deeper, which is what builds this bond that makes a healthy partnership ultimately.
• 44:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I think, you know, if people are wanting something that's not conflict oriented, what we probably could sort of wrap with or talk about is appreciation.
• 44:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I think appreciation is the currency of intimacy in many ways.
• 44:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, and if you want intimacy to thrive and flourish in your relationship, how you express appreciation and gratitude towards your partner, towards the relationship itself,
• 44:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: All of that is going to determine the the quality of the connection and maintain it, right?
• 45:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: Appreciation is relational maintenance and so making sure that we can actually engage and Appreciating one another and everything that we do is very, very important part.
• 45:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I like I think that we notice when that falls off, like it definitely impacts the relationships.
• 45:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: So it's one of the toss that in there as well.
• 45:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, that's great.
• 45:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's like we forget when we're dating that we are two people coming together that have
• 45:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: In some cases like 20, 30, 40 years of life experienced before even meeting each other and there's so much rooted in their family dynamics, how they were brought up like all of that that we can't just expect that there is no conflict and there's no like that someone's going to think the exact same way that we think I think that is like what you're saying, Connor, it's a fairy tale that.
• 45:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's when the credit stop at the movies.
• 45:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's just not how relationships work.
• 45:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think people want to bail when that happens, but conflict is inevitable.
• 45:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I love this piece of how can you find someone that you can navigate it with.
• 46:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's willing to do this deeper work and truly understand you.
• 46:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: And not take it personally and just fight back, but like really understand where it's coming from.
• 46:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think that really is so key in finding that healthy relationship.
• 46:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I think we also need to like check our expectations, you know, I think the modern dating world is interesting and I'm grateful that I'm in some ways I'm grateful that I'm not any right now because I think it's challenging and I think, you know, dating apps and all that kind of jazz has thrown in some some complications, but I think, you know, just both having expectations.
• 46:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: of your partner, of the relationship, but also not being entitled within a relationship.
• 46:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: Because I think a lot of people go into relationships in modern dating and they are looking for someone to be everything for them.
• 46:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: And that's the unrealistic.
• 46:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's like you have to you have to you have to kill that off in some way.
• 46:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: You know you have to let go of this idea That the other person needs to be everything for you because it pressurizes the relationship and the other person and it's a form of perfectionism Where the other person can never live up to what we want and expect and so I think it was Francis Weller that says like relationships grow in community
• 47:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: right we are we're meant to be nurtured right so I have a very good community of friends of men in my life.
• 47:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yena has a very good community of people that are in her life and they are also the container that supports our relationship and that's that is I think in many ways we we kind of
• 47:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: and not just supports by telling you what you need to hear.
• 47:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
• 47:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's really important is like, we don't have friends who say Connor, you're right, Vienna's wrong, right?
• 47:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: Or Vienna, you're right, and Connor's wrong, just to side and be like, I wish you didn't so much.
• 47:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, we have people in our lives who also are curious and say, okay, well, what's coming up for you know, it's like, it's not just this siding with, you know, where you don't actually have growth from that.
• 48:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, I mean, I think, you know, it is it is ironic to really like, of course, right, you're like, tell us about how to have a healthy relationship, you know, and.
• 48:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: And this is I think that this is a huge part of it right where I where I started today was no self and relational awareness where like that the inevitability of life and relationships is that they're going to be hard things that show up even if they're not showing up right in the beginning right there going to be hard things that
• 48:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: They're going to be endings and deaths and fertility issues and that like the list is endless, right?
• 48:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: And to know that we can do hard things together is so, so, so, so important, right?
• 48:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: And that is not always easy and fun and light-hearted, right?
• 48:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: But that there's growth that is there and knowing that line between something that is growth-oriented versus harm-oriented is
• 48:54
  [SPEAKER_02]: is so important, right?
• 48:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, no, of course, you don't want to just stay in something if if there's nothing that's changing.
• 49:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: But if there is growth that is happening there, that is, you know, evolving you and the relationship, right?
• 49:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, that's, yeah, that's it, right?
• 49:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's, that's what we're here to do.
• 49:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's great.
• 49:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, three major light bulb moments for me in this conversation are one.
• 49:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not about the conflict.
• 49:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's about why two people are getting into the conflict.
• 49:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Most recently, my partner and I had a whole fight about getting a sideboard.
• 49:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, I don't fucking see a reason to get a sideboard.
• 49:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know what that is.
• 49:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he was like, our rooms on balance.
• 49:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: But ultimately, it was not about this piece of furniture.
• 49:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's about the fact that I had to prove my point right.
• 49:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he was looking for someone to
• 49:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: That was a huge, huge one for me and that really connected, you connected the dots for me on that one today.
• 49:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: A second light bulb moment is asking the question, how does that feel for you and how did that feel for you?
• 49:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: And this applies to anybody dating right now.
• 49:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: You don't even have to be in a relationship.
• 49:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: We go into dates talking about events in our lives, but we don't talk about how we felt during those events.
• 50:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it could be I work here.
• 50:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: I grew up here.
• 50:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have three siblings.
• 50:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think a great follow-up question for all of us on dates is, what was that like?
• 50:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: How did you feel?
• 50:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.
• 50:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Tell me more about what you were feeling during this moment.
• 50:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that is a way to get to know someone, peel back the layers and also promote this vulnerability, you know, in on these dates.
• 50:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the third major light bulb moment for me is,
• 50:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: I open this conversation with saying maybe none of us have had good examples of healthy relationships, and I was like, are we all screwed?
• 50:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the answer is no, because even the healthy relationships have worked for others may not work for you.
• 50:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the ultimate healthy relationship is what you create.
• 50:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: with your partner and the system to create, especially around conflict resolution that work for only you and your partner and maybe our kids will grow up seeing what we did as parents and maybe that wouldn't work for them and their partner and that's okay but we have to create these systems on our own with our partners and you know anything that's the most special takeaway.
• 51:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: I love that you had all of that through, like, you're, you're, you're good.
• 51:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: You're, like, taking notes and engaging the conversation and very good.
• 51:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, this was very, uh, top of mind for me because we literally just had this, this fight.
• 51:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, why am I fighting about a sideboard?
• 51:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is great.
• 51:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: We should probably wrap up this conversation before we go on forever since we can continue to forever.
• 51:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: If people want to learn more about the both of you or individually, whether the main websites and resources that they can go to.
• 51:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: For me, on Instagram, it's Mindful MFT as in Marriage Family Therapy.
• 51:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: The website is nearcouplescounseling.com, and I also have the origins of you course, which is a deep dive in understanding where you came from, your family system, and the origins of communication, conflict, et cetera, et cetera.
• 51:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and then I'm just at ManTalks on Instagram, or at ManTalks.com.
• 52:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: And that's it.
• 52:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: You have a shadow work course.
• 52:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: Let me shadow work course.
• 52:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: You can find it online.
• 52:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's really all about discovering the parts you that sabotage in your life.
• 52:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much, Vienna and Connor, for being on our show.
• 52:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: It is such a pleasure to witness you two together on one call, so really appreciate your time.
• 52:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you haven't done so yet, subscribe to the psychology of relationships today.
• 52:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you don't miss an episode.
• 52:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we'll see you all next week.
• 52:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Bye.