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Marriage 101: The Relationship Skills Nobody Ever Taught You w/ Dr. Alexandra Solomon · The Psychology of Relationships

0:00
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Julie Kraftcheck, and I'm UASU.
0:03
[SPEAKER_03]: This is the psychology of relationships.
0:07
[SPEAKER_02]: So most of us were never actually taught on how to be in a relationship.
0:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we're expected to just know what to do.
0:14
[SPEAKER_02]: We're left to figure out communication, conflict, intimacy, and commitment through experience alone, often without any real framework.
0:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Our guest today, Dr. Alexander Solomon, licensed therapist and author of Loving Bravely and taking sexy back, teaches one of the most popular courses at Northwestern University called Marriage 101.
0:36
[SPEAKER_02]: But instead of focusing on finding the one, the course centers on becoming the one, developing self-awareness, emotional responsibility, and relational skills.
0:46
[SPEAKER_02]: We explore how family history and past relationships shape the way we love, by conflict is something to work through rather than avoid, and how emotional and sexual intimacy are built over time.
0:59
[SPEAKER_02]: We also unpack differentiation, staying connected to yourself while in a relationship, and why it's essential for lasting love.
1:06
[SPEAKER_02]: This conversation is a reminder that meaningful relationships aren't accidental.
1:11
[SPEAKER_02]: They're built with awareness, intention, and practice.
1:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Remember to subscribe to the psychology of relationships on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and if this episode shifted how you think about love and partnership, we love a rating or review.
1:27
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the psychology of relationships, and you're listening to an episode that just might change the way you show up for love.
1:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Enjoy!
1:36
[SPEAKER_03]: So we were invited to be on episode of KQEDs The Forum where Kate Julian from the Atlantic came on to talk about an article she recently published about this section that we're in.
1:49
[SPEAKER_03]: And in her article, she talks about how young people are having less sex than ever.
1:55
[SPEAKER_03]: and there's like a sex drought going on.
1:57
[SPEAKER_03]: But in this conversation that we had, a very interesting topic was brought up where she mentioned that one of the most popular courses at Northwestern University is this course called Marriage 101, taught by Dr. Alexandra Solomon.
2:11
[SPEAKER_03]: so we thought we got to get her on the phone.
2:14
[SPEAKER_03]: We got to get her on an episode.
2:16
[SPEAKER_03]: This is all about because the most popular course when I went to college was like computer science, right?
2:22
[SPEAKER_03]: We're like computer science 101.
2:24
[SPEAKER_03]: But people are much more interested in learning about marriage and how to make more just last, which is great.
2:31
[SPEAKER_03]: I love hearing that.
2:32
[SPEAKER_03]: So we have Dr. Alexandra on the phone right now.
2:35
[SPEAKER_03]: Hi.
2:36
[SPEAKER_03]: Hi, guys.
2:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for having me on.
2:38
[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for coming on.
2:39
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to give a little background of who you are.
2:41
[SPEAKER_03]: She is from Chicago.
2:43
[SPEAKER_03]: She's been there for 23 years, originally from Detroit.
2:47
[SPEAKER_03]: She's married in her knit 40s.
2:49
[SPEAKER_03]: And she specializes in sex, love, and intimate relationships for the last 20 years.
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[SPEAKER_03]: She does individual and couples therapy.
2:56
[SPEAKER_03]: She teaches and trains graduate students to do couples therapy and teaches a globally recognized undergraduate relationship course at Northwestern University.
3:06
[SPEAKER_03]: She currently writes and presents to a wide variety of audiences, and is a huge love nerd.
3:14
[SPEAKER_03]: I've never heard of that before.
3:16
[SPEAKER_03]: Love nerd.
3:17
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to be a love nerd.
3:20
[SPEAKER_03]: And likes to turn other people into love nerds as well.
3:22
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, there we go.
3:23
[SPEAKER_03]: We will learn about how to be love nerds ourselves.
3:27
[SPEAKER_03]: So let's first start with talking about this course, Merit and 101.
3:32
[SPEAKER_03]: What do you think it is about this course that makes us so popular?
3:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that the topic is inherently curiosity provoking, right?
3:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And we've spent the entire quarter talking about attraction, dating, sex, intimacy, commitment, marriage,
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[SPEAKER_00]: conflict, like it's really hard to resist.
3:53
[SPEAKER_00]: This spring, it'll be the 19th time the class has been taught.
3:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's something that has been refined over many years and it's a hard complicated class to pull off.
4:04
[SPEAKER_00]: But the teaching assistants and I work hard to make a really meaningful, emotionally evocative, thought-provoking experience for the students.
4:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I find this so fascinating because we always say that you never learn these types of skills.
4:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like school and education, they don't teach you how to communicate with others and have relationships and build relationships.
4:26
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like college prepares you conceptually in the workplace and in life, but then it pushes you out into the real world and you have no idea what to do.
4:35
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, wait in terms of your human relationship.
4:37
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
4:38
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, how did this course even get created?
4:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so it got created when back when I was still a graduate student and two of my mentors and teachers Art Nielsen and Bill Pinsoff who are couples like long time couples therapist.
4:53
[SPEAKER_00]: we're feeling disturbed by the fact that they would spend hours and hours in their offices working with miserable couple after unhappy couple after discouraged couple and they started to think like what could we because there anyway to prevent this like what if we taught people how to do love like before they even had chosen their life partoring what would that look like what would what would we want them to know so a team got together and kind of just like create this
5:22
[SPEAKER_00]: of relationship science available to us.
5:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So in the course,
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[SPEAKER_00]: We weave together science, clinical theory, narrative, and then a ton of self-exploration.
5:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Because there's actually a ton of skills and background in paradigms that if you know them and understand them, you can just be more successful in love.
5:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I was a graduate student.
5:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I was involved in the beginning as a teaching assistant and a guest lecturer.
5:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And then maybe like eight or nine years ago, the class was sort of passed on to me and it's been really fun to kind of like,
5:54
[SPEAKER_00]: make it my baby ever so.
5:55
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm guessing it's pretty dynamic content because it's probably changing all the time.
6:00
[SPEAKER_03]: So how do you come up with your syllabus?
6:02
[SPEAKER_03]: The class is called marriage 101.
6:04
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a little bit of a misnomer because we really are also working hand like it could be called hookup culture 101.
6:12
[SPEAKER_01]: sex 101.
6:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's why it's so pop.
6:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it was so much fun.
6:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because I think it's happened over 20 years.
6:18
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, every once in a while we still will have some engaged students, but 20 years ago when we first started we had more engaged students.
6:24
[SPEAKER_00]: So the biggest, you know, the modern dating landscape is you too know very well.
6:28
[SPEAKER_00]: It's pretty different than what our students' parents and certainly with their grandparents.
6:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, dealt with.
6:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So I really backed it up and we really start now with like, okay, let's break down hook up culture and let's break down dating apps and let's talk about what a good breakup looks like.
6:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we're sort of filling in some of the, yeah, I'm a gen X person and.
6:47
[SPEAKER_00]: My students don't get any older, you know, I come back through the class year after year and the distance between my world and their world kind of grows.
6:55
[SPEAKER_00]: So I work really hard to try to stay as close as I can to their experiences and bring wisdom and experience, but also compassion because it's really tricky.
7:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the biggest thing we're all trying to get our heads around is the impact of technology and what that does to our human relationships.
7:12
[SPEAKER_03]: what is so one takeaway from that?
7:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think the one takeaway is when it comes to love and sex and hooking up, you've got to kick it old school.
7:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I always think about love as like this sort of like entity like hanging off to the side, like laughing at all of us who think we can get super clever and use technology to do something that is really about like how somebody moves their body and how somebody smells and what you feel like in this space, you know, between you and them.
7:42
[SPEAKER_00]: to find somebody, but then as quick as possible, you've got to go from screen to screen to face to face and just let the magic and mystery and pull of attraction kind of take you in, right?
7:54
[SPEAKER_00]: You've got to figure that out, face to face.
7:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And we can't like technology our way through love.
8:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there are reasons, and there are lots of reasons we try to do that, right?
8:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Because when love goes poorly, it hurts like hell.
8:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So the desire to be clever and cut corners is so understandable.
8:10
[SPEAKER_00]: and so futile.
8:12
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like a problem we keep hearing on our show is that people don't give you each other enough time because there's that paradox of choice.
8:19
[SPEAKER_03]: They feel like if I'm not clicking with this person in five minutes of meeting them, I can just swipe for the next choice.
8:25
[SPEAKER_03]: Is that something you also address?
8:27
[SPEAKER_00]: It totally is.
8:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I've had students say to me like,
8:30
[SPEAKER_00]: God forbid you get stuck with, like, an entree between you and this person.
8:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
8:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
8:37
[SPEAKER_00]: But what we think about, the thing that I'm always inviting and challenging our students to do is kind of flip the lens.
8:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And imagine what it feels like that somebody else would decide that quickly about you.
8:48
[SPEAKER_00]: That's it.
8:50
[SPEAKER_00]: The big concept that drives the class and drives, I wrote a book.
8:55
[SPEAKER_00]: The year and a half ago,
8:56
[SPEAKER_00]: that kind of addresses this, it's this idea called relational self-awareness, which is a more important framework than ever what happens when we swipe as we think I just have to find the right person and then that mentality can come into a first date where we think I'm going to sit down and I'm going to, you know, I can decide really quickly whether they're for me are not for me.
9:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And the thing that gets lost is looking at how we are showing up, like what's the energy that we are bringing into that date, how are we being experienced by the other person?
9:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So we get into this sort of like consumer mentality, you know?
9:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think for sure, attraction and chemistry, they take time to unfold.
9:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you can't see my best self, my deepest self, my most
9:41
[SPEAKER_00]: quirky fun funky self right away like that stuff takes a while for me to be able to kind of reveal and unfold.
9:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that's a bit of a dangerous mindset and I do see that yes very commonly.
9:54
[SPEAKER_03]: But it's also just about it's that exercising empathy and knowing that you're meeting a new human being who's going through their own journey.
10:04
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's sometimes we forget that you're so right about this like consumer culture that we're in, it's kind of like shopping on Amazon shopping for people.
10:12
[SPEAKER_03]: If this is not the product I want, I'm going to look for something better with better reviews.
10:16
[SPEAKER_03]: When we all deserve time to uncover who are many layers of art.
10:22
[SPEAKER_01]: So we actually had another guest a while back that asked the question like, do millennials actually even want to find love.
10:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, are they willing to put in the
10:34
[SPEAKER_01]: have done.
10:35
[SPEAKER_01]: What are your thoughts on talking to students?
10:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I don't have a doubt in the world that plenty of millennials want to find love.
10:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
10:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there is a fear that they can't, and there's a cynicism that sets in.
10:49
[SPEAKER_00]: and there's a really deep, I think, oftentimes, like, lack of trust in their own resilience, and there's a massive skill deficit.
10:57
[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't have a doubt in the world that what people that people really do long for, just that the sort of companionship intimacy, like, journeying through life together, I see that very commonly.
11:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's a lot of longing and desire for that, just it just feels fraught, complicated and hard.
11:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So what are the skills that millennials are lacking?
11:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm always also super careful to not, I'm not trying to come down at all.
11:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm learning else because I don't know that my generation or the generation above me figured it out any better.
11:32
[SPEAKER_01]: That's true.
11:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, there's different challenges.
11:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, different challenges.
11:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And this whole element of choice, like there's such an opportunity now.
11:41
[SPEAKER_00]: to really kind of like buffet style, pick and choose what you want and what you don't want.
11:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So the degrees of freedom about what it is to construct a relationship.
11:49
[SPEAKER_00]: There are more of those.
11:50
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not just sort of like a plug-in chug, like put a person in there.
11:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And of course you know, partner A does this and partner B does this.
11:57
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a sort of like crafting from the ground up of, do we want this or do we want this?
12:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Do we want monogamy, not monogamy?
12:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Do we want, are we living the same place or separate places?
12:07
[SPEAKER_00]: All these different variables?
12:09
[SPEAKER_00]: that are so cool because when you do create something that feels super authentic and super aligned, it's something that's strong and hardy and exciting, but it just means that you have to have the skill of relational self-awareness, which is like being able to basically look at what the relationship is stirring up in you right now and feeling whatever and feeling trapped.
12:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm feeling afraid of losing myself.
12:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm feeling afraid of, in a lot of times, very often what we, what stirs in us in a romantic relationship is stuff from our past, stuff from our childhood, stuff from the love we saw growing up, problems that our parents had that were terrified to repeat, all that stuff comes up, and so we've got to be able to like know how to work with it when it, it's not problem if that stuff comes up because it's going to come up, it's just like, can you work with it within yourself and with that person that you're dating?
13:03
[SPEAKER_03]: And how do you work with your students to come up with these issues that they may uncover?
13:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Pretty directly.
13:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the major, one of the major assignments for the class is that they go talk to, basically like their attachment figures, you know, the people who raise them, their elders, oftentimes parents or grandparents or aunts and uncles, they're becoming ethnographers.
13:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Like trying to understand their own family system and like how did my family do love?
13:28
[SPEAKER_00]: How did my family handle emotions?
13:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Because the more you understand the internal map that you bring into everything like from like the first date really expectations about gender expectations about touch expectations about how you navigate difference all that stuff is there.
13:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that assignment in particular is one where that's how you become a love nerd.
13:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And you're like, no, no, no, no, no.
13:52
[SPEAKER_00]: You look at your life as it's like, infinitely curious thing, like, oh my gosh, no, where did I, where did that belief of mine come from?
13:59
[SPEAKER_01]: But you know, because anytime you're in therapy, it usually roots down to your attachment styles.
14:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
14:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And that usually comes down to family and the way you were raised or seen love in other instances show up.
14:10
[SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.
14:11
[SPEAKER_03]: And so once you uncover these for a lack of better word of these issues, what do you do with them?
14:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it really, I think one thing is you accept that it's the work of a lifetime.
14:26
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm in gear, let's see, my husband's had a nice elevator 20 year anniversary in August.
14:32
[SPEAKER_03]: Congratulations.
14:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
14:34
[SPEAKER_00]: We've been together since college.
14:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
14:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And we'll have a moment where I get triggered by something he's done.
14:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And my knee jerk reaction is to make it about him.
14:45
[SPEAKER_00]: What kind of a person does that?
14:47
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you not know by now that that is a bad silly wrong, disappointing thing?
14:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And so
14:54
[SPEAKER_00]: The question is, can I pause, take a breath, and sort of like hold up a mirror and wonder like, okay, so what is it?
15:02
[SPEAKER_00]: If I'm feeling critical of him, what's going on inside of me?
15:05
[SPEAKER_00]: What's the unmet need?
15:07
[SPEAKER_00]: What's the longing?
15:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And how can I bring my concern to him in a way that advocates for myself without putting him down?
15:15
[SPEAKER_01]: So what's an example you could watch through?
15:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Like how you would say it to me.
15:19
[SPEAKER_01]: You'd spin it.
15:21
[SPEAKER_03]: Julian, our book, like, take a note.
15:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, I'm like, like, your student's class, right, right, right, right.
15:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's really awesome.
15:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, whenever Todd and I have a fight, I can create, I mean, you know, when it's like super raw, I can't bring it into the classroom, but they're pretty quickly bringing it into the classroom.
15:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, okay, so here's what I, you know, in it.
15:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, always a learning experience.
15:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And like, okay, I got another piece of this, like, really wild puzzle that is my relationship with this man.
15:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Just feel about that.
15:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't, he doesn't really know in the other way.
15:52
[SPEAKER_00]: We've been together so darn long.
15:54
[SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't know in the other way.
15:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So what's the example?
15:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
15:58
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's say I thought he ought to have done something and he didn't do it.
16:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I would feel inside of myself, like a desire to let him know that that's wrong and I might even make it to like, it feels like you don't even care about me or don't you see how busy I am?
16:15
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a very common one that I'm, I just look into.
16:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't you see how busy I am?
16:20
[SPEAKER_00]: if I approach him like that, it's going to invite him to put his defenses up.
16:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but you didn't, you know, you didn't tell me it was important or yeah, but you didn't do these four things that I asked you to do.
16:32
[SPEAKER_00]: So attack invites defense versus if I could pause and just kind of like,
16:39
[SPEAKER_00]: very often from me what I have learned about myself is that if I become critical of him is because I'm somehow feeling guilty or some amount of shame about what's going on in my part of the relationship and often for me it's a story about, you know, I'm of, I've got teenagers and I've got this like really busy career that I adore and so I'm more likely to be critical of him if I've been having one of those days where all day long I've been kind of like critical of myself.
17:05
[SPEAKER_00]: You didn't get an Instagram post up today, or you forgot to do something for the kids, or, you know, you didn't go to the gym this morning.
17:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Whatever it is, if I get, if I'm getting lost in my own self-critical story, I am much more likely to be critical of him.
17:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.
17:23
[SPEAKER_00]: So if I can pause and kind of like send myself some love, like put my hand on my heart, like send myself some love, that will help me.
17:31
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't mean then that I take my concern off the table.
17:35
[SPEAKER_00]: But it means that I say to him, honey, I'm having a really hard time.
17:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I'm so disappointed that this didn't get done.
17:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm having a really hard time.
17:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's going to invite him to be more sympathetic towards my plight in the world and feel more like a partner.
17:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so what do we want to do about it?
17:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so let's figure out what we're going to do from here.
17:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Some more of a team effort, and this is a relationship with you.
18:00
[SPEAKER_03]: So what is the secret to a long lasting marriage?
18:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it finding the right partner or knowing just how to communicate with your partner?
18:10
[SPEAKER_00]: The thing we know with all this relationship science, there's no such thing as a
18:15
[SPEAKER_00]: afflict free relationship.
18:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Think about all the romantic to comedies that we've ever seen in our lives.
18:20
[SPEAKER_00]: They sort of end with the sort of like walking off into the sunset and we don't get to see the real year down the road.
18:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
18:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think this ties back to the online dating is it then lowers our frustration tolerance.
18:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And we think the moment that there is one of those like pain points, misunderstandings, disappointment.
18:39
[SPEAKER_00]: The knee jerk is to just go back into the pool and find somebody else with the idea that it wouldn't that that thing wouldn't happen if I was with the right person.
18:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
18:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
18:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Certainly there are things we ought not tolerate.
18:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Nobody ought to tolerate, you know, neglect abuse violence certainly.
18:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
18:55
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm not talking about those things.
18:56
[SPEAKER_00]: But when there's that moment of friction or misunderstanding, the most successful couples are able to kind of navigate it with a sense of like, what are we going to learn from this?
19:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And
19:06
[SPEAKER_00]: How can I use this to more deeply understand you and how can you more deeply understand me and how can I more deeply understand myself so that's
19:15
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the attitude that leads to a long and happy marriage.
19:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.
19:20
[SPEAKER_01]: So you talked earlier that you believe that the younger generation and millennials really do want to find love.
19:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And you also talked to the point that the way people approach relationships is more like based off your own needs opposed to like a set script that has been in the past.
19:37
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you think people feel about marriage?
19:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think the views have changed over the last 10 years?
19:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I do and it's complicated.
19:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Some of it has to do, some of it has to do with really big macro factors in our economy.
19:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I think in order to imagine being a married person and pulling off the kind of interdependence and resource co-mingling that's required of marriage, you have to feel like you can stand on your own two feet and that you can lean on somebody else and I think that we've got
20:13
[SPEAKER_00]: inequalities that seem to be only getting worse and worse and this really big divide between heads and have knots.
20:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I think cultures, countries, governments, have responsibility to create policies that people can support themselves in a match and like hitching themselves to somebody else's wagon.
20:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that any conversation about what's happening to the institution of marriage has to always be put in that bigger framework of what's happening around social policy, really.
20:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, interesting.
20:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I've never thought about it that way.
20:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I have not either.
20:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's been a lot of discussions that people feel like it's like kind of outdated like the laws and all of that piece.
20:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I've never heard the policy end, which is interesting.
20:54
[SPEAKER_03]: If you had to make a prediction for 10 years from now, do you think there would be more people getting married or less people getting married?
21:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it's so interesting.
21:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
21:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the trend line is certainly going towards less people getting there.
21:07
[SPEAKER_00]: But what I would love to see is us really creating family friendly policies in this country and moving towards like creating more even playing fields for everybody and creating more inclusive cultures or LGBTQ plus people feel as well than into the fabric of everything, as heterosexual people do.
21:28
[SPEAKER_00]: So if we can sort of like course correct around some of that, I think that marriage then becomes something really like beautiful and things that people can something that people can feel proud of and that it is theirs to create.
21:39
[SPEAKER_00]: in a way that feels good to them.
21:41
[SPEAKER_00]: But we've got to be inclusive about what that looks like, what a family looks like and be able to make policies that family can feel really good about and that they are supported and held by their community.
21:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So if we can do that, then I think for sure.
21:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Mirage will start to go back up again.
21:56
[SPEAKER_00]: People will feel more optimistic and more hopeful about what's possible.
22:00
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, let's bring up the opposite end of this because some would argue that marriage is actually not a natural structure for us and it's a product religion or a product of bidding into of the way our economy works.
22:15
[SPEAKER_03]: How do you feel about marriage?
22:17
[SPEAKER_03]: Is it is is something that's that we should accept as a natural course of human behavior?
22:22
[SPEAKER_03]: How do you feel about?
22:24
[SPEAKER_03]: Marriage, is it?
22:25
[SPEAKER_03]: Is it something that's that we should accept as a natural course of human behavior?
22:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I kind of like bypass this whole, is it natural or not natural?
22:33
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do think that when people are talking about that, what they're often talking about is sexual monogamy.
22:38
[SPEAKER_00]: We have historically tied together marriage and sexual monogamy.
22:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Those are one and the same.
22:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think what's really interesting and important and where I have had millennials really
22:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Push my thinking is around like why would we why do we choose sexual monogamy and what are the consequences of that?
22:54
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would say in the last five years or so I have become much more intentional about saying that part of Part of building a relationship with somebody like a new couple is they're kind of figuring out Okay, we're gonna be a couple and what does it look like?
23:08
[SPEAKER_00]: There has to be a conversation around sexual monogamy often times it is sort of assumed that it's the knee jerk
23:16
[SPEAKER_00]: natural, of course, is what we're doing.
23:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is a setup for sexual boredom, for infidelity, for boundary violation versus a couple who is courageous enough to have a conversation about what is sexual monogamy mean to you?
23:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Are we choosing this?
23:33
[SPEAKER_00]: If we're choosing it, what are we going to do to keep our sexual relationship really alive and dynamic?
23:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And how will we
23:46
[SPEAKER_00]: the more we can start to put those conversations into voice and have people not be scared.
23:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I think it feels like that conversation feels like it's piercing this bubble that is romanticism.
23:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think in fact, the conversations like that are incredibly romantic because they're like, what are we gonna do?
24:02
[SPEAKER_03]: Like how are we gonna take care of ourselves and each other?
24:04
[SPEAKER_03]: And what are we gonna do about the fact that we're gonna be having sex with only each other for a really long time?
24:09
[SPEAKER_03]: What's gonna look like for us?
24:11
[SPEAKER_00]: How are we gonna know?
24:12
[SPEAKER_00]: So I love those conversations.
24:14
[SPEAKER_00]: supporting people having those conversations.
24:17
[SPEAKER_03]: What about the conversation of someone who doesn't really believe in marriage for someone who really wants it?
24:23
[SPEAKER_03]: Some, you know, the people who really don't believe in marriage would say, what's the point?
24:27
[SPEAKER_03]: Why can't we just be together forever, not have that certificate, and not have they recognized by law?
24:33
[SPEAKER_03]: What do you think about that?
24:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I would be so curious to have a conversation with them about where, how do they come to that belief?
24:40
[SPEAKER_00]: and what are the experiences in that person's life that feed and fuel that belief?
24:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And if it is a truly authentic belief system, then I think there I think it ought to be respected, but I think oftentimes a belief system like that forms from a place of fear and from a place of seeing people in your family really, really, really screw up on their edge.
25:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's often, it's often times what happens is when our parent, when we see a really painful thing in the generation above us, we course correct to 180 degrees, which is really understandable, but what it omits is all of the shades of gray that are in between repetition and total opposition.
25:23
[SPEAKER_01]: That's super interesting, because I think one of the reasons to why people are getting married later and really trying to hold out for that lack of a better term perfect partner, which is what you brought up earlier, too, about the first sign of things not working, seeing if there's someone better, is because our generation before us, there was such a rise in divorce.
25:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you've any thoughts about how that impacted this generation?
25:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
25:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh, so many thoughts about it.
25:53
[SPEAKER_00]: You're totally spot on.
25:54
[SPEAKER_00]: The thing that I always say is that, you know, I'm the product of divorce.
25:58
[SPEAKER_00]: My parents were divorced and remarried and and so yes, being from a family like that does increase your chances yourself of getting divorced.
26:08
[SPEAKER_00]: But it also means that you have this massive invitation to heal and learn and grow.
26:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And in some ways, people like that who do their work end up being far more safe bets to Mary than somebody who just kind of heads their head and the clouds and this super romantic idea that I believe you pick the right person and you, you know, try it off into the sunset.
26:29
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's data from Harvard from a couple of years ago that shows that about 70% of young adults
26:37
[SPEAKER_00]: wish their parents had talked to them more about love and sad relationship and marriage is a massive, massive area of silence and families and I oftentimes see parents silencing themselves if they went through a divorce and their wound then becomes, I can't do love, I'm a failure at love.
26:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I love when I have the chance to work with those parents and talk about what might you want to share and how could you just rather than giving advice just make space to kind of stand shoulder to shoulder with your young
27:06
[SPEAKER_00]: and talk about all of it without a need to say, do this or don't do this or don't be like me or any of that stuff.
27:13
[SPEAKER_00]: It could just be like, yeah, it's hard.
27:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And here's the things I've learned and tell me what you're going through.
27:18
[SPEAKER_00]: What does it look like for you and what feels the hardest and what feels most confusing?
27:23
[SPEAKER_00]: That's such important and healing.
27:25
[SPEAKER_03]: And going back to the example of two people in a relationship, one person really believes in marriage, the other one doesn't, how would you address the other person who really believes in marriage and part of what we've heard from people from doing our show is that they, you know, you almost have to question those people even more.
27:51
[SPEAKER_03]: socially and culturally.
27:53
[SPEAKER_03]: So how would you address that person in helping them untangle what is actually socially constructed versus what they actually consciously choose?
28:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Well yeah, that I mean that's a beautiful way right there is just um yeah so I think I think I mean I'm obviously a huge advocate for couples therapy and you might students often laugh that like the biggest thing they got out of the class is like they're now in therapy.
28:21
[SPEAKER_00]: So, starting early, yeah, which I frankly feel pretty good about.
28:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we still have, I think we've done a nice job reducing the stigma for individual therapy, but I think we have a long ways to go reducing the stigma for couples therapy.
28:35
[SPEAKER_00]: and oftentimes couples wait an average of six years before from the moment they know they need help until they actually get help.
28:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And I will tell you as somebody who's been doing couples therapy for a long time, it is so much harder to disentangle patterns that have been around for years and years and years.
28:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So when I have a chance to work with the young couple, I'm super excited.
28:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I would love to work with a couple like this.
28:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I imagine a conversation with a couple like this goes something like this.
29:03
[SPEAKER_00]: If you love me, you wouldn't expect me to marry you, but if you love me, you would just get over your fear of marriage and marry me right there be some version of push pull and pain around you must not love me because you don't understand how important this is for me.
29:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's through couples therapy we can kind of find the threads.
29:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And for the person who is right hell bent that marriage is the only way, I want to understand for them what that's about.
29:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And very often it's this idea that I'm afraid of being, I'm afraid of being a abandoned.
29:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And so my idea is if we get married, you could never leave me.
29:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And so there's this sort of false equating of marriage and safety.
29:44
[SPEAKER_00]: A promise of promise would never be left behind.
29:46
[SPEAKER_00]: You know?
29:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's see that.
29:48
[SPEAKER_01]: So another area that's changed I feel like dramatically is children, like I think the generation before is almost as expected if you've got married you had children.
29:57
[SPEAKER_01]: What do your thoughts on that?
29:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I have noticed that just again like in the last five years I have not to have um I have more graduate students than I would have had ten years ago.
30:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I have more graduate students these days who say you know they're 25, 26 and who say like I just know that I don't want to be a parent.
30:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's different for me than 10 years ago, or 15 years ago, knowing graduate students where they probably wouldn't have been as clear.
30:21
[SPEAKER_00]: This is something they just don't envision for their lives.
30:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think a part of a ties to what we were saying before, like, at least in the US, we're really lousy at supporting families with little kids.
30:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think this generation saw their parents like, crambling to,
30:36
[SPEAKER_00]: balance, family and career and doing all kinds of, I mean, working really challenging shifts and making really elaborate arrangements and feeling like there was just it was really hard to get all the needs met.
30:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I cannot really imagine.
30:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I can really imagine empathize with
30:55
[SPEAKER_00]: that sense of, like, I saw how hard everybody worked.
30:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know that I can do that.
30:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think we're making much progress in that area around family, family, family, family policies.
31:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And until we do, it's hard to blame people for not wanting to become parents.
31:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think there's a perception to that you're like giving up your own self in life, sacrificing, like, what are your thoughts on that?
31:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I know, well, I'm super biased because I feel like I cannot even imagine my life without my kids.
31:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that I have to breathe like take a deep breath again and again when I because if I get out of my lane and I start looking at
31:34
[SPEAKER_00]: other people in my field, either who don't have kids or whose kids are grown or who had different, you know, I'm primary caregiver and my family system.
31:43
[SPEAKER_00]: So I know the ways in which my career is different and is smaller and is not as like quote unquote, I'm not as like far along as I would have been if either I wasn't the primary parent or if we hadn't have had kids.
31:57
[SPEAKER_00]: So when I start to
31:59
[SPEAKER_00]: walk down that road like imagining what if and what would be different.
32:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I just stop because I stop and I get focused again on like the beauty and bounty of my life choices, you know?
32:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So I do think yes, it is definitely having kids.
32:14
[SPEAKER_00]: requires a really different arranging of priorities and my gosh my I learned more from I'm learning more from my kids than they will ever learn from me like they've taught me so much about patience and sacrifice and compromise and love so it's not a not a thing that I would have traded in and I think also there again like if it's a choice that is
32:37
[SPEAKER_00]: truly deeply aligned.
32:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I do not envision myself as a parent.
32:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want that.
32:42
[SPEAKER_00]: That's very different than somebody who maybe feels really afraid because they had super painful, traumatic experiences as a kid.
32:49
[SPEAKER_00]: For those people, I would want them to have a chance to do therapy and kind of reassess.
32:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it a choice being made from a place of alignment or is it a choice being made from a place
33:01
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you had to give a very quick breakdown of everything you cover in your class for let's say a potential new student.
33:10
[SPEAKER_03]: What would that look like?
33:12
[SPEAKER_03]: What would someone take away from your course?
33:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, well, they would take away kind of an understanding of the modern love landscape.
33:21
[SPEAKER_00]: and sort of how it's different today that was before and how it's different today than in other parts of the world.
33:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So we kind of begin with like this 10,000 foot view.
33:30
[SPEAKER_00]: We spent a lot of time talking about sex and I feel like a lot of what I do is round out really, really in complete cyclical education because cyclical education in our country is really pretty deeply inadequate and oftentimes gaps have been filled in by pornography.
33:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah.
33:45
[SPEAKER_00]: spend time talking about how do you come to know who you are sexually and where your boundaries are and what pleasure is like for you and how do you know that and how do you ask for that and we talk about conflict, how do you fight fair, how do you make an apology, how do you forgive?
34:01
[SPEAKER_00]: We talk about expected challenges of relationship, like um
34:06
[SPEAKER_00]: What it is to create a home with somebody and some of the challenges that come there, we talk a lot about what happens when love bridges cultural difference.
34:16
[SPEAKER_00]: What is it to be, you know, a white Midwesterner who marries somebody who is first generation from Pakistan?
34:22
[SPEAKER_00]: What happens there?
34:24
[SPEAKER_00]: and how do you work with your family systems and ways in which they're getting triggered?
34:27
[SPEAKER_00]: What happens if you are from a really wealthy family and you marry somebody where they're really, really, really, really blue collar.
34:37
[SPEAKER_00]: That's one of the biggest cultural differences that we don't talk nearly enough about
34:41
[SPEAKER_00]: how socioeconomic difference shows up in an intimate relationship.
34:45
[SPEAKER_00]: The students leave with a lot more language and frameworks for how to face the challenges of love.
34:51
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not about making the challenges go away.
34:54
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just about making people stronger to be able to face the complexity.
34:58
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I'm just so mad that I'm the age I am right now and I did not have this opportunity to learn this in college because, you know, I talked to a 20 year old of the other day and she said, you know what I don't understand about our education system is that, for example, in math, they teach you a structure and a framework for problem solving.
35:26
[SPEAKER_03]: it's all driven by fear and consequences.
35:29
[SPEAKER_03]: And so she said something so fascinating.
35:32
[SPEAKER_03]: She said, when I lost my virginity, I realized I was only taught about safe sex, but not how to enjoy sex.
35:40
[SPEAKER_03]: And it was mind-blowing for me because I thought, how did I learn to enjoy sex?
35:45
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess through pornography because where else would you turn to do that?
35:49
[SPEAKER_03]: And then the pornography enjoyment of sex is totally different than what anybody experienced.
35:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Or dating, it's like you learn from these really terrible dating books that have been out there.
35:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Or wrong times, yeah, which is like the rules and like shit that's like not communicative at all.
36:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Was, yeah, so that was why that was the point I got to when I wrote Loving Bravely, was Loving Bravely is a book that is sort of like in response to the rules and the advice about dating and it's much more of like an inside out how to become, you know, somebody who knows how to navigate the dating world from the inside out, not because you've like learned the rules and the structure.
36:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm now working on a second book and maybe we'll reconnect with that one comes out, which is all about sex, because
36:37
[SPEAKER_00]: That's another, I mean, I had that story about the 20-year-old losing her virginity is that's the reason that I'm writing this book is, yeah, that we do a really good job teaching people to be afraid of sex and associating sex with danger, disease, risk, and sin.
36:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And the thing that we know from the data is that the quality of a couple's sexual relationship,
36:58
[SPEAKER_00]: has a really big impact on their overall relational health and happiness.
37:03
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
37:03
[SPEAKER_00]: But where do people go to kind of have adult sex education?
37:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is the book I'm working on now.
37:09
[SPEAKER_00]: It's been so fun and so emotional for me.
37:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I cannot even wait for it to come out.
37:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't do all I want to talk to you when you do this.
37:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Please let us know in the comments.
37:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's so fascinating though because it's like all the rules.
37:24
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like teaching you like a formula that does not work across the world.
37:28
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's not for real life.
37:30
[SPEAKER_00]: it's for it's like it's a game and it's like bringing someone and like getting the upper hand it's like yeah how to be a scam basically yeah and it does that and basically it reinforces the the idea that I don't know anything so I need your system in order to be okay versus helping people just really be able to trust themselves
37:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep, and it also reinforces the fact that like if someone does something wrong, the next person out there, they're just not the right fit.
37:58
[SPEAKER_01]: There's right people out there because they don't, they're not responding exactly how you want them to.
38:03
[SPEAKER_03]: But so if we're not under grad students at Northwestern, how do we take your course?
38:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, well, I certainly have a lot of, I've got a YouTube channel, and I have an Instagram feed and blogs on psychology today and books.
38:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And so there's lots of ways in which the lessons from the course are out there in the world.
38:28
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's lots of ways to kind of
38:29
[SPEAKER_03]: Keep in touch and go a little deeper in some of these topics with me and give us your website Dr. Alexander Solomon dot com.
38:37
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we'll link it as well.
38:38
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's definitely do some takeaways.
38:39
[SPEAKER_03]: We'll take ways of Julia and I have not your own takeaway.
38:42
[SPEAKER_03]: What did you learn from my biggest takeaway from this and I've been dealing with this for a while is accepting the fact that someone else's actions are just actions and my mind and my brain is what
38:57
[SPEAKER_03]: process that action into a feeling for myself.
39:01
[SPEAKER_03]: So taking that moment to step back and say, why am I feeling that way versus why is this person doing this to me is huge.
39:12
[SPEAKER_03]: Because that's how my parents used to fight.
39:14
[SPEAKER_03]: It's pointing fingers.
39:15
[SPEAKER_03]: That's what I grew up with.
39:16
[SPEAKER_03]: That's how my family has always been.
39:19
[SPEAKER_03]: That's what I witnessed.
39:20
[SPEAKER_03]: But it took me 37 years to realize that this is not
39:24
[SPEAKER_03]: the most productive way of communicating.
39:27
[SPEAKER_03]: So unraveling those 37 years of witnessing that and taking the time and effort to just pause has been really great for me, but also the most challenging thing for it.
39:40
[SPEAKER_03]: It takes a lot of effort.
39:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I think my biggest takeaway is the statement that you saw that every relationship has conflicts and that like you just have to work through the conflicts and it's how to do that opposed to trying to find this dream relationship that is completely
39:57
[SPEAKER_01]: conflict free because that just doesn't exist.
39:59
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think like there is definitely that notion, especially with the abundance of choice that's out there right now with apps.
40:05
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think it's doubling down really just making a work with someone opposed to like always looking for the next option that's really not going to ever result in a perfect relationship either.
40:15
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
40:16
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like what I really enjoy with my partner is talking about our past and not just like relationships, but also how are you brought up and how did your parents show love to Jess?
40:29
[SPEAKER_03]: And being loved nerds that you would call them because it really helps understand how someone defines your relationship with that involves.
40:39
[SPEAKER_03]: What love is and how they like to receive it.
40:43
[SPEAKER_03]: And these are conversations we never think about having because you just assume everybody thinks the way the same way you do, which is not the case.
40:50
[SPEAKER_03]: All of us are so different and it's been eye opening to have these conversations with everybody I've met because
40:56
[SPEAKER_03]: You start to realize that love is defined in so many different ways.
41:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
41:01
[SPEAKER_01]: This generation, I think, the one part that's really amazing about us finding love, you could set your own rules.
41:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's not like this is what I'm supposed to do.
41:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm supposed to get married, I'm supposed to have kids.
41:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, if that's what you want to do, great.
41:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And if it's not what you want to do, that's also great.
41:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, there's different things that work for different couples.
41:20
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, definitely.
41:23
[SPEAKER_03]: So to wrap things up, what piece of advice would you give to people who are trying to figure out what they're looking for?
41:31
[SPEAKER_03]: Because this is one thing Julian and I have really learned from all of our guests is that nobody really knows what they're looking for.
41:37
[SPEAKER_03]: So how do people get to at least a concrete idea of what they're looking for?
41:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Part of it is letting go of the expectation that you have to know what it is you're looking for
41:50
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, the idea of mindfulness is so popular in the field of mental health right now.
41:55
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a well-researched.
41:57
[SPEAKER_00]: concept.
41:58
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that when we're in the dating world, a big part of it is just to show up and just be really, really present with this person.
42:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And just rather than assessing evaluating future tripping, you know, the imagining what's going to happen, just be like let yourself really, really dive into that present experience.
42:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And so letting go of the idea that you have to have
42:22
[SPEAKER_00]: chapter 13 figured out when you're only on chapter one.
42:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a really, that would be my big piece of advice.
42:28
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is super interesting because we've had other guests have other opinions of like having a set goal and mind i.e.
42:35
[SPEAKER_01]: marriage for example.
42:37
[SPEAKER_01]: and kind of making sure that they're not putting other eggs in one basket in like really making sure that they're driving to get to their goal of marriage, whether that be like having multiple partners at once or dating around, what do you take about the balance of your goals versus being mindful and present and really should be able to relationship with your goal?
42:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Because we all know it's hard to really get deep with a lot of people when you have work in friends
43:06
[SPEAKER_01]: and the other life, a life, basically.
43:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it's the word goal that I'm struggling with, okay?
43:13
[SPEAKER_00]: What about if it was, I'm really open.
43:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm really open to intimate partnership.
43:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I do think part of the challenge of hookup culture is people, I think women especially, sometimes women who date men can feel pressure that they have to act really chill and no drama and no expectation.
43:36
[SPEAKER_00]: thought leaders are thinking is helping women be like less apologetic for.
43:42
[SPEAKER_00]: So so I do I am really pro people just standing in their truth.
43:48
[SPEAKER_00]: which is, yes, I really, I'm super, I'm really open to a relationship.
43:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So maybe it's a different between openness and goal.
43:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I guess for goal, it again puts us in that energy of strategy, and a little bit more like transactional, consumery, but I am definitely supportive of everybody, men, women, and those who live beyond the gender binary,
44:10
[SPEAKER_00]: being really comfortable with like, yeah, I really do want to wake up on a Sunday morning next to somebody and just snuggle.
44:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And I will not apologize for wanting to love and be loved.
44:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm definitely for that.
44:21
[SPEAKER_03]: That is so refreshing to hear because, you know, on the app bumble, they have this section called Looking For.
44:28
[SPEAKER_03]: And you can choose relationship or marriage, or you don't know.
44:32
[SPEAKER_03]: And I hardly ever see anybody put marriage.
44:35
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I think people think
44:39
[SPEAKER_03]: But if they change the wording to open to, yeah, I'm open to these things, right?
44:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it one of the other?
44:46
[SPEAKER_03]: Or not one of the other.
44:47
[SPEAKER_03]: Then it makes a lot less daunting to say, I'm open to these and they're exploring or open to like describing your dream relationship.
44:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it's certainly like a relationship mirror.
44:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's so that's so binary.
45:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's choices.
45:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
45:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, what about I'm open to I'm open to really sitting with you with my 100% full presence and getting to know you.
45:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because that's where it starts from, right?
45:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
45:29
[SPEAKER_01]: when you're just meeting someone on the bumple, you don't like it very much.
45:34
[SPEAKER_01]: But you know who you are yet.
45:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And I want to do what you just said.
45:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to sit there and get to know you.
45:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
45:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you think, I mean, then when you go to gender role, socialization, we are yet to really raise a generation of men who would say without apology.
45:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
45:50
[SPEAKER_00]: What I want is to be a husband and a father.
45:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that there are ways in which we're kind of like stacking the deck against
45:56
[SPEAKER_00]: men because we've been quite shaming of men naming their vulnerabilities.
46:01
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I have a, and the mother of a teenage son who wants to read, um, who'd really interest in reading romance books.
46:08
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, how hard it is to find a romance book with a male protagonist?
46:11
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, you're really a pretty impossible.
46:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
46:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I love this.
46:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to ask you before we wrap up one more gender role question.
46:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess how have you seen this shift with your younger students?
46:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean one thing is that the younger generation is they're they're reconceptualizing gender in ways that weren't possible a generation or two before right so just everything around around being gender queer and having different notions of gender expression gender identity gender fluidity sexual fluidity there's just a pretty new interesting complicated rich landscape there.
46:45
[SPEAKER_00]: heterosexual gender dynamics play out so powerfully around dating.
46:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And so whenever somebody's stepping out with any kind of creativity, stepping out of that like,
46:56
[SPEAKER_00]: then our women are, it requires, it requires self-awareness.
46:59
[SPEAKER_00]: So oftentimes my students who are LGBTQ plus are miles ahead of their straight peers around self-awareness and sexual awareness, because they've just needed to be.
47:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And my heterosexual students are oftentimes, I think, quite held back by the heavy, heavy, heavy gender expectation loadings that happen around heterosexuality.
47:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you find that like this there's like is notion of like then having to like make the first move and pay and do all of that you still see that oh my god.
47:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm I'm sure you guys do too.
47:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, I was just curious because it's a college student so it's even like a generation below who we're talking to so I was wondering if that was going away at all.
47:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, the whole like asking people out on dates is is tricky on college campuses because it doesn't happen a whole lot but the place I see it showing up is around hookups where one of my students was I'm telling me recently she's a
47:49
[SPEAKER_00]: a woman who hooks up with men and she was hooking up with a guy and they were, you know, getting into it and she said to him, can I talk to you a little bit about what gets me off?
47:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And he was like really like flimx like, oh my gosh, no one's ever said that to me before.
48:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Because his script was, he just leaves and he knows what to do and he knows how to take care of himself and take care of her.
48:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And so she was in that moment busting up the script, you know, and saying like,
48:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Listen, my pleasure is going to be central, and my pleasure is not going to come from, you know, penis to vagina intercourse.
48:22
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'd like to have a conversation about how I'm going to get myself some pleasure with experience.
48:28
[SPEAKER_00]: That's revolutionary, right?
48:30
[SPEAKER_00]: That is bringing the, you know, feminist revolution into the bedroom, which is where it is much, much, much needed.
48:36
[SPEAKER_01]: So, one other last question around just the college students, you said they're not really asking each other on dates.
48:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Where do you see like the hoarding and like dating culture going like in later generations?
48:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think that if we do relationship education right, it will come back around.
48:55
[SPEAKER_00]: So one of the assignments in my class also is they need to ask somebody on a date.
48:59
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, nice.
49:00
[SPEAKER_03]: Amazing.
49:01
[SPEAKER_03]: That is good.
49:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's, and it really, they just need a nudge.
49:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's, it just, it's again, I think that fear of being awkward, that fear of being perceived as drama or needy.
49:14
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really quite oppressive and so they just need, there just isn't need to kind of like break through that and then people are able to kind of like ask for what they want which is I'd like to have some time with you I'd like to get to know you better.
49:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to hang out with you.
49:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that just to wrap up I think that is like one of the other biggest takeaways on this is like just putting out what you're looking for and not being so scared because If you really do scare someone away, they're not the right person.
49:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, putting out what you're open to.
49:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you're letting sure what you're open to or what you're like what you want in a relationship.
49:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, definitely.
49:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I love it.
49:53
[SPEAKER_03]: This is so good.
49:54
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so getting a fake student ID tomorrow.
49:57
[SPEAKER_00]: We absolutely.
49:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Guys, I always have.
49:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I've got mamas and papas and journalists and all kinds of people popping on the class.
50:04
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's always fun.
50:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And my door, the doors are always open.
50:06
[SPEAKER_00]: We get a lecture hall bigger than what we need so that we can accommodate.
50:10
[SPEAKER_00]: visitors.
50:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much Dr. Alexander Solomon for coming on our show week and if you haven't done so yet subscribe to the psychology of relationships today so you don't miss an episode.
50:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Bye.