Latest / 🎙️ Rebuild & Fulfill Real conversations on burnout, rebuilding, and becoming stronger than before. / What BPD Really Feels Like: Dene Dubois on Trust, Trauma, and Purpose | Episode 16
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- Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: What if the very thing you wanted most was also the thing you feared losing the most? Connection, trust, love, belonging. Yet you're constantly wondering if the people who care about you are going to leave. Imagine questioning your own worth, struggling to trust, and feeling emotions so intensely that other people can't understand what you're experiencing. For millions of people living with borderline personality disorder, those aren't occasional feelings. They are daily realities. Today's guest is helping change the conversation around borderline personality disorder, or BPD, by sharing what it actually feels like from the inside. Welcome back to Rebuild and Fulfill, where we have real conversations about adversity, resilience, mental health, personal growth, and whatever it takes to rebuild your life and recreate something meaningful from the challenges you've faced. I'm Kelsey Dunbar. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: And I'm Marc Rogala. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Today we're joined by Dene Dubois, an Australian mental health advocate, writer, speaker, and podcast guest, and creator of BPD Raw. Dene speaks openly about living with borderline personality disorder, trauma, trust, loneliness, relationships, and the realities many people experience but often struggle to talk about. He's also the author of The Places I Didn't Belong, a memoir exploring identity, mental health, belonging. And finding meaning through lived experience. Dene, welcome to Rebuild and Fulfill. Dene: Thank you Kelsey and Marc, it's great to be here. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Fantastic. So for those meeting you for the first time, tell us a little about yourself, your journey, and what led you to become such a passionate advocate for mental health and BPD awareness. Dene: Okay, my childhood was pretty traumatic. I had an alcoholic compulsive gambler father and a very bipolar mother. Though I have other siblings ⁓ in my memories, I can only remember myself with my mother in her manic episodes. I basically a carer before becoming a child. ⁓ And what... created where I am today. I went through a journey of running away from my problems and I've just basically landed where I need to be now. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: Dene, thank you very much for being part of the show today. So a lot of people have heard of the terminology, borderline personality disorder, but they really don't understand it. ⁓ you can just give a brief explanation of what it is, what it's like to live with day to day, and then what is the biggest misconception that the general public has about individuals that have this condition. Dene: For me, having BPD is just like we feel things strongly. had, we've having the condition, I feel that it's something bad to have. I think it's because people just don't understand it. It's like when you're dealing with it, ⁓ you people to see, basically to see you as a child, but speak to you like you're an adult. if that might sense. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: When you first were going through this, I guess the question I have for you is how did you find out that you had it? Did you consult a therapist or medical professional? Were you feeling something on the inside? What gave you the awareness to seek out help to get the actual diagnosis? Dene: Well, I'd always had something wrong with me. I always felt people didn't understand me. I also had a hearing disability which didn't show up until 30 years later. But I've gone through therapies for 30 years of my life on and off. I've been diagnosed with different things. One was separation anxiety, made me feel like a dog, because they use that term with animals. And that they tried to diagnose me bipolar, but it was definitely not bipolar. And the BPD thing came probably five years ago. Most, some of it made sense, but it still doesn't really make sense to me today because I don't suffer the other way, the way other people suffer with it. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: Yeah, and I know that this condition is rather difficult to diagnose and I have seen that in my work in the field that I do, you know, where a lot of times there's therapy sessions and there is some misdiagnosis up front. So it sounds like that was the case with you until they were actually able to, you know, pinpoint, you know, what the actual cause was and what was going on on the inside. Dene: Yeah, and the normal standard therapies never worked for me because my trust is that bad and because the other people in the group settings are all crying and getting upset on going, no, no, no, this isn't for me. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: Yeah. So what is it like to live with it day to day? mean, do you have coping skills that you're constantly working on? Dene: Not really, I just have to remind myself. I have to remind myself what I'm doing. Look, to be honest, the only really bad things are the trust. I honestly, I think it will eventually get better as my journey is growing and the project I'm on now. But it's about being upset, when someone upsets me. I think in lots of ways it's... hurts me more and I say things that people wish they could say, if that makes sense. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: Yeah, slowing down your thoughts, mindset, resets, know, thinking through the particular situation. Completely understand that. What's the biggest misconception that people have about individuals that have this diagnosis, do you think? Dene: Yeah, yeah. ⁓ that we're unlovable and incapable of relationships. Because I think if get someone, that is going to be lucky because they're not gonna be loved like anything else. All we need is understanding. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: I understand and I completely agree. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Yeah, it it's I I have to say, in talking to Dene to set up this podcast, ⁓ he had some other podcasts that he was working with and some people that were making false promises and things like that. And just told me from the jump, he's like, just understand that with my condition, don't leave ⁓ conversations open-ended. So he was very proactive about telling me like these are some of the things that might trigger me a little bit. So just, you know, make sure don't give incorrect information when we settle on a date and a time, just make sure that it works for you. I'm I'm flexible, but you know, just things like that. So I think that you do a really great job, Dene, where you're explaining, how this affects you and the things that would generally trigger you and then ways to ⁓ have higher level of understanding and patience with you, which I think is awesome because honestly there's certain things that I don't know if I'm Clinically OCD, but there are things that I'm OCD about. so I I definitely get that. so I'm just gonna go ahead and lead into my next question here. But I just wanted to give you a a compliment there because the way that you're handling your condition actually is pretty extraordinary, in my opinion. So one of the themes I I kept seeing throughout your story, is trust, you know, that we've talked about. How have your early life experiences shaped the way you experience trust, Dene: Thank you. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: connection, and relationships and how you feel about belonging today. So like your upbringing, how did it shape that? Or it was r really always about the condition. Dene: Well, considering that the people that were supposed to care about me the most, my parents, didn't show me that I never got to trust. had to learn to soothe myself myself. So that's, I think that's what's given me my strength. And ⁓ still mistrust today. ⁓ I said before, I don't know. I think it will eventually get better the more I talk about it. and share my story with people. Because is where I was meant to be right now. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Yeah, and honestly, I think that as you said, the more success that you find in this space and the more people that are interested in in learning about your condition, I think that is gonna be almost kind of like ⁓ own version of therapy to ⁓ through your condition where you kinda almost have that Sally Field Oscars moment of like, they like me, they really like me. ⁓ And I that's actually gonna help you quite a bit. Dene: you Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: Yeah. And just to kind of go back a little bit earlier in the podcast of what Kelsey said about your individual conversations and some of the things that you would like to see setting those expectations, you know, about, you know, not asking open any questions and things like that. That's huge. And that's growth. And my guess, and I want you to clarify this, is it probably took you a little while to get there to be able to set those expectations and have those conversations with individuals. Dene: Yes. But once I started, once I started, it's been easy. I overthink things. I overthink things. I'll be honest with you. When I got the questions, I had a whole script. I threw it out. I threw it out because I have to be me. I'm raw, unfiltered. And people, and as I've noticed through my videos and stuff, and I'm using... Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: Yeah. Yes. Dene: the F word and stuff, people say, yes, use it more, use it more, we wanna hear you. So yeah, because I look at it this way, when it comes to swearing, who decided what was a swear word? I'm not using it in a derogatory manner, so yeah, I'm using it in a passionate manner. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: Yeah, no, I completely... Kelsey knows how I feel about that, right? I mean, I'm very blunt and very open. I mean, I am who I am. I mean, whether you love me, whether you hate me, I'm not going to change for anybody. But it took me years to get to that point. I had a lot of anxiety, social anxiety. I cared about what people think. It was years working. mean, I think a lot for me personally, it was falling in love and actually with the person in the mirror. You know, because for years I thought, me personally, I thought I was defective, know, with panic attacks, anxiety, depressed thoughts. Then I started self-medicating, you know, with alcohol and substances and so forth. Then I had to get sober off of that stuff, learn my mental health conditions, and then acquire certain coping skills and set some expectations or boundaries or what have you with the individuals around me. And that initially was difficult for me to do. But as you said, now it's very easy conversations for me to have because I value where I'm at right now with my sobriety and I value where I'm at right now with my mental health. And I don't want anybody to take that away from me or anything to take that away from me, if that makes sense. Dene: Yeah, totally makes sense. No one's ever gonna take my voice away. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: Yeah. So here's a question for you. For someone who doesn't have BPD but loves somebody that has BPD, what message would you want to send to them about what their partner might be going through on a daily basis or experiencing? Dene: Love them. Don't treat them any differently. there could many things have gone in their life that ⁓ triggered a trauma in them. They're reacting to that what happened in their in their journey. So, yes, but always remember there are different parts that everybody have in their brain. Some are negative, some are positive, but they all work for the greater good. Unfortunately, when it comes to BPD, that part of the brain tends to take over. love them, love them, try to understand that ⁓ it's not doing anything wrong. It's the reactions to the trauma that they've faced. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: Very first statement. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Yeah. So you've spoken openly about trauma, ⁓ CPTSD therapy, medication, TMS, and your own mental health journey. What have you learned about yourself through the process ⁓ what has genuinely helped? Has there ever been anything that's helped other than that self-talk of yours? Dene: The only thing was the TMS. So throughout my life up until probably six months ago, every dream was a nightmare. Every single dream I had was, I was used to it. I always dreamt about death. Every single night. It was like a fact that I I tried to delay sleep, but TMS, wow, that was a game changer. ⁓ Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Can you explain that for us, please? Dene: So TMS is where they basically put something onto your head and it zaps parts of, I don't really understand the technical term, it zaps parts of your brain and rewires it. So basically I went from five hours sleep a night to eight hours sleep a night with no nightmares. So it was a game changer for me. But unfortunately, when it comes to TMS therapy in Australia, it's only done over 35 treatments. and then it stops and you have to, you can get another 15 treatments top up. But what I found is, and I'm going to get a machine actually from the States that I can do it at home for myself. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: You recently wrote that people talk about BPD instead of listening to people who have it. And that's a very profound statement and a very interesting statement. And just to give you some background with me, and I'm just being honest, okay? Before I went through what I went through, I was a little judgmental of people. I'm just keeping it real. You know, people that had a drinking problem or a substance problem or mental health. I had an ignorance just like society has an ignorance when it comes to this stuff, right? I had a preconceived notion. And now going through what I went through and realized that this can happen to anybody at any time. Does it make a difference? What age? Does it make a difference? What sex? What race? I mean, this shit's non-discriminatory, right? When I see somebody struggling, whether it's somebody that's publicly intoxicated or high or somebody going through a bad phase in life. You know, I tell Kelsey all the time, I just, my mindset has changed so much that I literally would love to have 10 to 15 minutes with them and find out what the hell happened in their life to put them in that particular position and learn and learn. And I've done that sometimes. And when I do that sometimes, I'm dumbfounded with what people go through in life. I everybody has a story. That's the one thing that I've learned through this journey. Okay. So when people talk about people that have BPD, instead of actually listening to them or talking to somebody, what... ⁓ What inspired you, I guess, to make that quote? And what would you want people to do differently when it comes to this particular condition as far as an educational perspective goes? Dene: Okay, I've been to many therapists in my life and even tried to approach pit therapists. The moment you mentioned BPD, can't help you. It's closing the door straight away. They aren't listening. I tell you what, I have got more from listening to ⁓ other people, experience. ⁓ I don't psychologists, therapists know what they're doing with this ⁓ at ⁓ They listen. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: Yes. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Yeah. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: do we talk about? I say this all the time. I think this is like the third podcast in a row now we've had guests and I always talk about the similarities and people's stories, even though it's different diagnosis and everybody's going through different things. There's always similarities ⁓ I do a lot of work. Okay. I don't have ⁓ a degree in this. ⁓ have my live life experience. And the reason why I'm sitting here today talking on this podcast. And I'm not knocking therapists because there's a need for them or psychiatrists or psychiatrists, there's a need for them. But the reason why I am sitting here talking to you today, because people that were through the storm, show me the way out of the storm. Their lived experience. I'm a big believer in the peer model, matching people up that have similar conditions. you know, and almost like a coaching program or mentoring program to help the individual that might be struggling a little bit to get them to the other side, get them into a into recovery. And then I'm a big preacher, not I don't want to say preach, but I'm a big believer in paying it forward and getting active in the community or one by one, bringing our fellow brothers and sisters, picking them up, standing them up. and making them functional members of society again. That's how we're going to get out of this mental health crisis and addiction crisis in this world. I strongly believe that in my heart. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Well, and that and Marc talks about that all the time in the fact that ⁓ you look for the similarities rather than the differences, I mean, so all of us have experienced mental health issues ⁓ and so can find the commonality in that, even if we don't suffer from BPD or I didn't have a a drug or alcohol addiction. It doesn't mean that I can't relate to what you guys are going through because you're struggling on the mental health side. Marc always talks about find the similarities, not the differences. You pay too much attention to the differences and you're not gonna be able to make that connection. If you wanna make a connection with someone, look for the similarities and then all of a sudden you have an inspired conversation. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: know, and the other thing too is the people that came out on the other side, you know, that have the live life experience, it also provides hope and inspiration to you that recovery is possible. Dene: Yeah. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: And that's what I needed. You know, I'm not speaking for you, but you know, that's what a lot of people need is hope and inspiration that, can be, I live a normal life, be a functional member of society, even though I got this underlying mental health and I dealt with this addiction and alcoholism. And that was inspiring to me. And that's what drove the change. Not the therapist, not the psychiatrist, not the psychologist. Again, there's a need for them, but you know, obviously you need support. Dene: there. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: in the structured support. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: So actually so speaking of peer support, perfect segue into my next question. So tell us about BPD Raw. So this is ⁓ you know, what is it, why did you create it, and what impact are you hoping it has? Dene: Okay, well, it started many, years ago, probably about 10 years ago, I was in New York City and I walked into this shop and all it had was letters on a wall. So letters of hope, ⁓ dismay, lost loves. So these are letters that won't be going to their recipients, but the general public can read. I have never felt so emotionally alive. I had goosebumps up my arm, hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I walked out with tears rolling down my face. It was just that powerful to read that. I never thought it would lead to what happened now. So I have been working most of my adult life. ⁓ I finally got into a job that I loved and unfortunately it ended up in discrimination. ⁓ Due to legal things I can't mention them which is fine but so after that I waited through three years through a court case it was found in my favour but unfortunately they still wouldn't admit fault. So I had to live with that. probably went on, as I said, I don't get depressed, but I probably went on a bit of down and felt sorry myself for about five months. Then I started going on ⁓ Facebook and joining all the borderline ⁓ groups. And I was noticing something interesting is people would share their story, whether it be anonymously or using their name and... because it was in a group of people that had mental illness, they would occasionally something that's gonna ignite something in them and it would turn into a brawl basically. So it would stop people speaking up. And then I'm thinking, wow, what if we could get those stories out without having that immediate attack? So that's why I created BPD Raw. So for those people have their voices and... It's been amazing. Though my trust issues come into play and I look up my statistics and I share it with my AI and they say, you're basically blowing this out of the water. I would tell you you're in the top 10 % pages and I've only been there in five weeks getting 20,000 views. I don't get it, but eventually I will. it's just been amazing. it's not just reaching people that want to their story. people are asking me for advice on other things. And it's just, it's, and when they, and when I'm getting all this thanks and we love you and people are tearing up at me, it makes me feel good. And yeah. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: So to clarify, people can put their their thoughts out there ⁓ about their condition and letters and things like that. Dene: It's not about sharing. I basically advertise in a group to get people to come along to join my page. So I tell them about what I'm doing and they come join my page. This isn't about displaying it online. If they wish to display it on my page, they can, but they don't have to because some of these people are sharing their stories anonymously. So they're just sending in an email. and it's raw, unfiltered. We don't change the wording. be honest, I've got letters of suicide on there. It's everything and it's so powerful and it will change. It will change the stigma. I have no doubt about it. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: ⁓ 100%. I mean, it's again, I don't have that medical diagnosis, but I have other diagnosis and I belong to groups where people are sharing their stories, you know, their journey, the chaos in their lives and so forth. It's open, honest and raw. And it's very healing for them to be able to get those words out. and be able to speak what's going on in their life in a non-judgmental or judgment-free zone, if you will. Dene: Yeah, I have found out with borderline groups, it's totally different. As soon as, yes, yes, there's a lot of attacking of people, a lot of attacking. Because there's so many, there's so many... Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: Really? That's sad. Dene: things that go along with borderline because you've got people that ⁓ have bipolar as well and everything. So it's like someone will say something and it'll affect them and it just turns into a slinging match. So that's why I thought, well, these people, there's so many people that leave groups because of that. They don't want to speak up anymore. This is now going to give them the opportunity to have their voice because nobody's voice should be silenced. Everyone. has the right to be heard. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: 100%, I completely agree with that statement. I love that you're doing that. You're welcome. So you recently wrote a memoir called The Places I Didn't Belong, which I love the title by the way. Looking back, why was it important for you to get your journey or get your story out there? Dene: Thank you. Thank you. Okay, so even in my 20s, I always wanted to write a book. I always wanted to be known for something. ⁓ And whenever I put pen to paper, those days it was pen to paper, I always saw I was writing in circles. And I also didn't like some of the things I was writing down and going, ⁓ my God, did I do that? And it was only on, I was actually having a bad day. I actually done this in a day. I got onto chat GPT and I basically spoke to it for a couple of hours and I said, look, I want to write a book. I can't type for shit. And I even said to him, I feel like I'm cheating, but it kept on saying to me, I don't know your story. It's your story. So it actually took about eight hours because I kept on saying to him when he was writing it, I said, I don't speak like that. I don't want to speak like that. So he kept on changing the things. But till this day, I still believe parts of me and it might be my B PD brain that I cheated because there's so many people that are against AI out in the world that I want acceptance from everyone and I'm never going to get that. I will be comfortable with the acceptance that I do get one day. I know I will be, but I'm not there yet. But I strongly suggest if people want to know my journey in between my childhood and reaching where I am now, they need to read my book. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Yeah, let that let that be their problem. If they have a problem with AI, you know, ⁓ no tells handyman that they shouldn't use a screwdriver or a drill or a hammer. It's a tool. And for you, this was a tool to be able to get your thoughts, your feelings, your journey ⁓ onto paper in way that allowed you to be expressive and in the moment to ChatGPT, which was able to then Dene: Yeah. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: helped create this book and you made all the corrections that so that it really spoke with your voice. It's still you man. Don't let don't let the haters ⁓ hate like that. It's not worth Dene: They'll always be around, unfortunately. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: What's a great analogy you just gave, Kelsey? I never thought about it from that perspective, too. That's a great analogy? So a follow-up question for you. So for individuals that actually buy the book, read the book, ⁓ is your hope they take away the book with their learning experiences or one takeaway from reading the book? Dene: That pain doesn't define you. You can turn your pain to the greater good. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: Absolutely. Well said. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Yeah, I mean it's that's you know turning pain to purpose. You know, we talk about that all the time. So and ⁓ one thing I admire is that you don't talk about being fixed, you talk about understanding yourself and using your experiences to help others. So what does healing and purpose look like for you today? Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: Yes. Dene: You use the word fix, I don't want to be fixed. I don't think I need to be fixed. I just need understanding. Nah, don't need to be fixed. There's nothing wrong with me. I just feel stronger than you. I've always believed that the world everyone could do with a bit of borderline personality disorder in their life. Everyone needs some of the traits, like even with the communication, how to close the door on a communication. How hard is that? I think it's manners in a way as well. Where's our manners gone? I think we are new improved people. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Yeah, I d I just think that honestly, between the internet and the social media and things of that nature, everyone is just in such a hurry to communicate that they're not communicating properly. And like you said, it does come down to manners and it's interesting because I really think differently about the way that I end conversations with people versus via text or messenger simply because of getting to meet and know you. That has already changed something about me because now I'm much more mindful about it and going, wow, like this is kind of open-ended. I want to just get back with this person and say, you know, I'm really sorry that the conversation ended like this. You asked a question, I never got a chance to really answer it. So I mean, I'm much more mindful of it. So, like you said, we could all benefit from thinking in terms of how would I want this conversation to end so it didn't hurt someone's feelings that might. be feeling more than some others and that might be sensitive to that. And it's actually already started helping me. Dene: That actually made, thank you Kelsey, because that actually made their hairs on the back of my neck stand up. Because I've noticed that I am planting the seed with people when I talk about things. And I planted a seed with you and it changed you. I've had people that I do voice messages. They're starting to voice messages back at me. Not that I wanted them to do because I'd like to read what they're saying, but yeah, it's amazing how ⁓ to little things that I'm do, I am planting that seed. And throughout my journey in life, that's what I've always wanted. Whether it's ended badly, as long as I've left some of my good with them, that keeps me alive. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Yeah, I mean we can all learn and we can all grow. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: Absolutely. Well said. So another question here for you, I think this is going be my last question. If someone listening today just got a medical diagnosis of BPD, or if somebody is experiencing symptoms, having trouble processing past trauma, they have loneliness, maybe some trust issues because of what happened in the past or just feeling misunderstood. and you're speaking to them right now, they're watching this podcast. What's ⁓ message that you want to send to them? to provide some hope and inspiration to them. Dene: What I've found throughout my journey is when you're not in the right place or you're not trusting who you are, not loving who you are, you're going to run into the wrong people. Share your goodness with the right people. Put up your boundaries, block the wrong people. And that will get you far. Turn your trauma into purpose. We've so many wonderful, powerful qualities inside of us. Just believe that, because you can do it. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: It's Kelsey two podcasts ago, and I don't remember the exact quote, but Michael said something that I've actually used at the behavioral health facility multiple times. But it was something to the effect of pain without clarity can lead to chaos, but pain with clarity can lead to purpose. And I thought that was such a powerful statement. And when I hear Dene talking and sharing some of his journey and what his goals, hopes, aspirations are, that quote just keeps coming in my mind as we're having this conversation today. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Yeah, a hundred percent. So, before we let you go, we always like to give the opportunity for our guests to tell the the where they can find you, where they can connect with you, follow your work, learn more about BPD Raw ⁓ and pick up a copy the places I didn't belong. you wanna share some information on how people can connect with you? Dene: Okay, so look on BPDRAW, you'll see my page. ⁓ I've got my lovely face on there, ⁓ as well ⁓ as there's a website, bpdraw.com. You submit letters there, you can ask for advice, there are help numbers, everything's available on there. ⁓ And for my book, just look on Amazon. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Right on. Okay, well, Dene, thank you so much for sharing your story, your advocacy, and your lived experience with us today. And thank you for helping us better understand not just borderline personality disorder, but the human being behind the diagnosis. So if you'd like to connect with Dene, learn more about BPD Raw or pick up a copy of his book, we'll have all of those links in the show notes when you're watching this. And so to everyone listening, remember you are not broken. You may be carrying experiences, struggles, wounds, or challenges that others can't see. But your story still has meaning and your next chapter is still being written. One step, one conversation, one day at a time. So until next time, keep rebuilding, keep growing, and keep moving forward. And we will see you on the next episode of Rebuild and Fulfill. Take care.