Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / High Conflict Communication Skills: Navigating Personal Change and Blended Family Dynamics
Transcript
- Speaker 1 (00:05): Welcome to, it's All Your Fault On True Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you deal with the most challenging human interactions, those involving high conflict people. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-host, bill Eddie. Speaker 2 (00:20): Hi everybody. Speaker 1 (00:22): We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute and conflict influencer.com, where we focus on training, consulting, classes, classes, methods and programs, all to do with high conflict. And we hope you'll visit us at our website anytime. Welcome back, faithful listeners. We really appreciate you and we're grateful for the questions you've been sending in and the feedback and all the comments that you've been sending to us as well. It's very encouraging to us and so we're grateful. Today we're talking about relationships, of course. This first one, it's about one of the most difficult dynamics a stepmom can face, navigating a high conflict relationship with your husband's ex. If you've ever felt like no matter what you do, you can't win. This story will really sound all too familiar. But first, we're going to start with a raw and honest message from a listener who before moving on into the step Magdalena, she describes herself as someone who has lived nine different lives. Speaker 1 (01:30): And we're going to get into that in a second. It's a story about transformation and fear of repeating the past. And I'm a deep human longing to find love and stability. So let's talk about it. This listener's written in, I've broken the 10 Commandments twice with no true remorse. I think I'm a sociopath and I know I'm an actress. On and off the stage. I've been legally married and divorced to random people nine times. I'm 62 years old and I've had nine different lives, and I'm afraid to repeat the same pattern. Staying married this time around would be a dream come true for me. How can I attain this? Becoming ordained as a non-religious Buddhist nun has changed me insight. I'm different now. Drugs and alcohol are no longer an important part of my life. I desperately want to be normal. What can I do, bill? Speaker 2 (02:26): Well, first of all, I would say it is possible to change if you want to change. The thing that I would emphasize is the skills that we talk about a lot here for managing other difficult people can also be used for managing oneself and kind of rounding off some of the rough edges of your own personality. A lot of what we teach, for example, are new ways, skills, new ways means new skills. Four, big skills, flexible thinking, managed emotions, moderate behavior, and checking yourself are things to learn and practice. And let's suppose you did have sociopath tendencies or traits. Most people with a sociopath personality have no interest in change. They're very comfortable with their view that the world needs to be dominated by them and that they can do no wrong and they like dominating other people. But there's a continuum there. And some people may have some traits and have more capability of change from the description that the woman says. I guess she said she become a non-religious Buddhist nun, so it must be a woman, Speaker 1 (03:51): Yes, Speaker 2 (03:52): That she has potential just by wanting to change that there's that possibility and that's very exciting. And what's great is she seems to have learned from her experience, which sounds quite extensive. If she had nine marriages, I would suggest that these four big skills one place you may learn them. We have a method we call new ways for couples and families, for people that want to stay together and that it's good couples skills, applying flexible thinking, managed emotions, moderate behavior, and checking yourself. And that might be something that she might want to do is take that eight session online course, no one else has to be involved. Or if she has a spouse now it might be helpful if they both took it so that they can be on the same wavelength, managing their own emotions, communicating with our Biff method, brief, informative, friendly, and firm, and making proposals, making requests of each other. Things that really help couples work, but especially helpful is when people focus on their skills rather than finger pointing to others. So I would be encouraged, and there's a lot of things that she can learn and hopefully grow with. Speaker 1 (05:24): And so let's kind of go back to where we were in the last episode where we started off with choices. We were talking about a neighbor situation with bullying and some troublesome things happening. So choices in this situation, whether we're dealing with someone on the outside or whether it's with ourself, we still have choices. And one of those choices is to change. So I think a lot of people end up getting discouraged about they expect that the change is going to be rapid fire. I want to change and it's magically going to kind of be better. But I guess it's important to understand that these things come in layers and we can make choices, we can make decisions about our lives, but sometimes we don't even know what those things are we need to decide about because they've been building for a lifetime and these thoughts and the patterns and they're deeply ingrained in a rut. Speaker 1 (06:27): If you think of your brain as a racetrack, and it's been, the race car has been going around that track for a long time, and the grooves, the ruts are getting deeper and deeper and deeper, and the deeper they get, the more ingrained it is. And this just becomes what you do in every situation. So if you think of that, I hadn't thought of it this way before, but if you think of that car going in reverse, and maybe I'm learning some of this or the groove can change, and I think that's important to understand, like you said at the beginning, bill, people can change once they have insight, but the insights come over time Speaker 1 (07:09): And don't, maybe you see these big things like I've been married repeatedly and I know that I'm being an actress and kind of convincing people to do things and I'm behaving different ways with different people or at different times. But what about these very small things? What dominating someone else really feels like or what it is? And so it may take quite a bit of time of checking oneself and changing behaviors to you understand even what dominating someone else even means. I think we will hear the word dominating and it sounds big and imposing and loud and scary, but it can be just very sort of nuance things that I don't want that person to get attention. I don't want that person to get the promotion. I don't want it fill in the blank. And those are kind of dominating thoughts. Would you agree with that? Speaker 2 (08:14): I would. I would. Speaker 1 (08:15): And then I'll go to a part two. Speaker 2 (08:17): In many ways I want to picture, you talked about digging that path deeper and deeper. And in many ways I think you don't get rid of that path. You start a new path. And that's where I think of Alcoholics Anonymous has really figured this out is when you feel like having a drink, go to a meeting. It's like when you feel like dominating somebody, have an alternative, have a conversation where you take turns, things like that and keep it simple and repetitive. How we really learn, it's like learning a song or a sport or something is it takes a lot of practice. I would also encourage this person to either get an individual counselor or go to a group counseling situation where they can practice being more reasonable with other people who aren't sociopaths may have other issues. And so they can learn what normal looks like for other people interacting with them. And I've been thinking a lot lately about how group therapies, group counseling can be really good for practicing interpersonal skills. You have other people that you can practice them with and that of the whole group. Usually there's some healthy behavior that everybody can aim for, that some people have pieces of already. And you may have some pieces of healthy behavior too for this woman. And so that is one way to change and improve behavior as well. Speaker 1 (10:03): Yes. And can you go back, bill, because I've just been dying here, body, my lip, what you said was so profound and comical at the same time about practicing having a two-way conversation. How did you say that? Speaker 2 (10:17): Yeah, that instead of trying to dominate, having that two-way conversation where you take turns and listen. Speaker 1 (10:25): That's it. Taking turns, having a conversation, right? I mean that's a big tell, which I just dominated you as that conversation. Sorry, I interrupted. But that's it is instead of having all of that attention and you feel yourself, I mean measure yourself if you need to take your watch and your phone and time, a conversation that you're having with someone and how much percentage of the time you are talking as opposed to the other person, if you're not catching yourself doing it purposely, set yourself up for success in those ways. Measure yourself and then get better. Keep practicing it, develop that new path. Speaker 2 (11:04): Exactly. Path. Yep. Speaker 1 (11:06): Okay. Excellent. That's it. Thank you for sending that question and that was really fascinating and we wish you all the best and keep moving forward. Now we're going to move on to a question about being a stepmom in this situation. And of course the names have been made up to protect the innocent. Tammy married a man whose ex-wife often lashes out through emails, texts, and other accusations at different times. She's been accused of treating the kids like second class citizens and also of trying to replace their mom. Tammy says no matter what she does, she cannot win publicly. The ex can act friendly, but in private, she may unleash a barrage of angry messages, which makes it very difficult for Tammy to then be warm at a ball game or a school event just hours later. Over the years, Tammy has tried empathy, setting boundaries, using air statements, and even direct conversations. Speaker 1 (12:04): She's explained repeatedly, if we can keep communication about logistics for the kids, I'm happy to engage. But if it turns into personal attacks, I can't yet. The pattern continues. Short cycles of promises to improve, followed by more hostility. Recently Tammy agreed to go to lunch with her, the biological mom. The meal was civil until at the very end the ex asked why they couldn't be friendlier in public. Tammy gently explained how hard it is to pretend that everything's fine. After repeated attacks, the ex broke down in tears, insisting she had no idea what Tammy meant. Within days, the cycle repeated apologies than withdrawal and then more hostility. Tammy's husband suggests cutting off communication altogether, but she wrestles with that not wanting to seem unkind or to make things harder for the kids. What Tammy wants is simple, a way to coexist, to keep communication short and focused and to protect her own piece. So is there anything in this bill that setting the limit, Tammy said to the biological mom, if we can keep communication about logistics for the kids, I'm happy to engage. But if it turns into personal attacks, I can't. Is that an appropriate way to set a limit and impose a consequence? Speaker 2 (13:31): Certainly, certainly it is. If she's dealing with a high conflict person who can't follow that limit, there's two approaches. One of course is the cutting off contact. If you keep doing this, then I'm just not going to respond. But another is to keep reminding yourself. It's not about you. It's really this other person lacks self-restraint, lacks the ability to not criticize. And so finding ways to kind of ignore it may be better. And she might even say, I'm going to ignore statements that are critical or criticizing of me, not the way I think we can solve problems. If you want to make a proposal for some way, we do something in the future, I'm all ears, but criticisms about the past, I just won't respond to. I think letting the other person know and the first wife know that that may be sufficient consequence is just you're not going to get a response. And sometimes that burns out the other person's statements and they start focusing on the future, which is where you can do something. I don't know. What do you think? This is an issue you've addressed many times with people? Speaker 1 (15:00): Yeah, I think even beyond being a stepparent, it's also, it happens in any relationship. And you were just saying Bill, sometimes just keeping quiet is a good strategy and just letting it it go. But what I've been noticing recently with people in a lot of my trainings is they feel like because we're teaching them a skill, using an ear statement or setting a limit or asking for a proposal or any of those strategies, they kind of take those in and those sink in very quickly. And then they practice the skill and they get it. And what that sets them up for it seems, is that they feel they must respond or think they must respond in every situation or to everything that's said to them. And sometimes it's just, it can be the absence of a response or a reaction. That is one of your options. Would you agree? Speaker 2 (15:59): Absolutely. And you get an email that's criticizing you and you've already said, I'm not going to be responding to criticisms, then you just ignore that. Or there may be something in there, and this is the example I've been using lately. You're a piece of dirt, you've done everything wrong, you're a terrible parent, and what time is the school play tomorrow and where is it? And the response is, thanks for letting me know your concerns. The school play will be at two o'clock in the main auditorium and you just ignore Speaker 1 (16:37): All Speaker 2 (16:37): That other stuff. Speaker 1 (16:38): Mic drop. Speaker 2 (16:38): And there's a principle of behavioral psychology, and that is extinction. If you don't respond to something, it runs out. It wears itself out because we get more of what we pay attention to. And so pay attention to a useful request, pay attention to a proposal about the future. But all the criticisms about the past, you could say, stop doing that or you could ignore it and frankly stop doing that is like an engagement. And so if you just ignore it, it's more likely to go away than if you keep saying, stop doing that every time they do it. Speaker 1 (17:23): Yeah. It reminds me of one of my first jobs, and I may have told this story before, so apologies if I have to our listeners. And one of my first jobs was working at a solid waste landfill, and it was newly implemented in law that there must be a landfill. And the ranchers must bring their, and farmers must bring their garbage to town and pay to do so. They weren't happy about it and I guess didn't know about it even though there were public notices in the newspaper. Who reads those, right? So I was the person that answered the phone when they started getting their bills for $8 a month and for the privilege of bringing their garbage to town instead of bringing it in their burn barrels and things. So I heard a lot of vitriol, very upset people and not the farmers and ranches or high conflict, but there might be one out of 10. Speaker 1 (18:21): But regardless, there were a lot of upset people. And I learned after maybe a few days that some if you just kind of let it go, let them run through, take their course, kind of get it out. Not everyone but some, they would finally pause and they expected me to say something and I would just stay quiet and they would talk a little bit more and pause. And it seemed after each pause, they became less angry, less upset, and then they were done. And if I'd had engaged in those moments with big explanations and information or any arguing or any of the things you're not supposed to do, it probably could have turned into something bigger. So I like that. What'd you call it? Extinction. Speaker 2 (19:09): Extinction. It's a behavior modification technique. Yeah. Speaker 1 (19:13): Yeah. So it's the absence of that, and I've been trying to really convey this in my teaching in my classes lately, is it's as much about using that skill as it is about what you're deleting, what you're not using, what you're letting expire and extinguish, right? Speaker 1 (19:31): Don't do this. And it can sometimes just be the absence of that. So instead of giving that explanation in the moment or argument in the moment, I'm just giving nothing. And that in and of itself can be great. Okay. And then going back also to that message, right where you're talking about, there's maybe one core question in the original message sandwich between some yucky stuff. So what I've been having class participants do is take one of those hostile emails and cross out anything that is a personal attack, an accusation, just nonsense, whatever. Is there anything left? And if there is, that's what you respond to. And it may be that question about what time you're going to meet at McDonald's or whatever, and that's what you respond to. That's, it can be that simple, and it doesn't have to be all friendly smarmy. I think with the Biff method, when we get to the brief informed it friendly part, some will take it a little to the extreme, like, oh, I have to say something really kind, and then I put the answer and then I say something really kind. It's like, no, it's just a tone. It's just a friendly tone, meaning you're taking your emotion out of it. If you have upset emotion, just let it go. Just respond to the question, move on, don't let it ruin your day. Speaker 2 (21:00): Totally agree. Let me just mention what I often use and recommend to say, thank you for telling me your concerns and you can use that in response to the most hostile whatever. Thank you for telling me your concerns. And then choose what information you're going to give two o'clock in the auditorium or whatever, but it's setting the tone. I totally agree with that. And a lot of times you don't need to have some extra friendly comment at the end. If you just say, thank you for telling me your concerns. Here's some information you may not have and leave it at that. I think if it's Friday afternoon, you can say, have a good weekend, but maybe it's Wednesday morning and it's a little early for that, and you just say, here's some information, have a good day or good luck, or don't even say anything. Speaker 1 (22:01): Is it okay just to sign your name? Or if it's a text, I guess we don't sign our names, but to just end it. And I think for a long time I was teaching it as have a friendly greeting, a friendly first sentence, and a friendly close. And I would always tell the class participants that, now, bill Eddie might not do it this way. And then I learned that over time. I realized it depends. It really depends. We say, I'm a reader, the writer in the situation. So you respond in your natural way, not if your natural way is to be angry and mean. Don't do that, but just be you. And you can't put something as a friendly first sentence, and it's going to depend on the situation. If someone's on their third email and they're attacking you and they just won't stop, then no, I'm not going to say thank you for sharing. Again, your concerns with me. You have to be natural, have to be you, but just take out any of the stuff that, anything that's not factual and neutral and formative. It just makes life so much easier. Speaker 2 (23:14): Exactly. Yeah. I like to think of it as pouring cold water on the flames rather than more hot water. Speaker 1 (23:23): And you have to say, it's not about me. So I just have to focus on what to do. Speaker 2 (23:29): And that's so important is their hostility is not caused by me. They carry hostility apparently. Most people in public don't say all these nasty things about you. It's just most of us learn. Maybe I'm old school, but I remember my mother saying, if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything. And so I was taught that lesson of me and my three siblings. We really got that. And so it's very rare that we would be venting like that. And especially in writing where you can think about it and go, whoops, that's not good. Yeah, but just being civil is so easy, but we have to overcome our own upset or defensiveness, but it really isn't about us when someone else is hostile and expressing that openly. To me, they lack the skill of managing their emotions because that's not a problem solving technique. Problem solving is like, here's a proposal and here's what I hope you'll do, and here's what I'll do. And that's how in many ways most people solve problems. Venting has nothing to do with problem solving. Speaker 1 (24:49): And I think in this situation, the stepmom is dealing with someone who has a lot of emotion dysregulation, breaking down in tears at the luncheon, which by the way, to the stepmom Bravo for making the effort to have a meal Speaker 1 (25:06): And a conversation with the mom, I think that's really commendable. And you tried in the absence of that, there's no communication. There's no connection. So I wouldn't see that as a failure that the mom broke down in tears and then wanted apologies or apologizes and then withdraws and just kind of back and forth. So it's accepting that this is how this person is going to, this is their pattern, this is her pattern, this is what she does, accept it, and then figure out what to do about it. So the questions are what Tammy really wants here is a way to coexist, to keep communication short and focused and to protect her own piece. And I think the protect your own piece is this isn't about me. I can let all this stuff go except who she is, and then I can keep those communications short and focused. Use a little ear statement before you pivot to, like you said, bill, giving a proposal or asking for proposal. It's so hard to really get it until you use it. And once you use it, it's just like, wow, I just remove this from my head space and I no longer have to stress about it and worry about it and try to please someone and try to walk on eggshells or avoid a misstep. I can just do something really simple. There's like four simple things to do, Speaker 2 (26:39): And Speaker 1 (26:39): That's about it. Speaker 2 (26:40): It's Speaker 1 (26:40): Using your statements, using what I call now a think action, which is a choice option or proposal. Just call it cop choice option or proposal or setting a limit. And it can be that simple. Speaker 2 (26:56): It's true, it's true. And I want to add something that you came up with and tell you, I've been using this a lot even this past week with several different seminars, is the idea that they have a different operating system Speaker 2 (27:11): And it's their operating system and you can't talk them out of it, and you can't stop them by yelling at them. And all of that isn't just who they are and understanding their operating system is more defensive, protective, maybe more fearful. All of that makes it possible to have some empathy at a distance for them, even if you really limit how much you communicate. But that it's not about me. This is how they are who they are, and in many ways it's sad because they're not as happy as you can be by being able to manage yourself and know to keep things flexible, et cetera. Speaker 1 (27:55): Isn't that the truth? Speaker 2 (27:57): So I think the operating system idea is another real helpful way to think about it. Speaker 1 (28:04): Kind of removes judgment and blame and the question mark. Yeah, it really, really does Remove that question mark. Then you just have a simple skillset that gives you a lot of peace and freedom. Speaker 1 (28:20): So good. Well, thank you for sending in that excellent question. To both listeners and to the rest of you, thank you for listening today. We'd love it if you hit the like button or leave a review. We don't get a lot of reviews. I don't know why I think people like our podcast because we hear from you privately and at seminars and things, but we'd love to see it out there on Apple or wherever you listen, so we'd appreciate it. If you're looking for a training or consultation about a high conflict situation, or if you have a high conflict situation in your personal life, come visit us@highconflictinstitute.com or conflict influencer.com. You'll find us both places and keep learning and practicing the skills, be kind to yourself and to others while we try to keep the conflict small and find the missing piece. It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show notes and transcripts at True story fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.