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The Inside-Out Practice: Book Announcement!! | WOM 013 · The Word of Mouth Podcast

• Jeffrey Lunt: Welcome back to the Word of Mouth Podcast, the podcast that covers the business, news, and trends in the dental industry. Today we have a very special episode. We've been talking about it long enough that we finally decided to write the book on it. So today I've got Troy with me here to announce the launching of our book, The Inside Out Practice. Welcome to the podcast, Troy. It's great to finally be on. Yeah, super excited. ⁓ we've talked a little bit about adding you as a third host. So moving forward, Troy will be a regular part of the show. looking forward to being part of it. So So let's talk about the inside out practice. Great. We ⁓ it's a concept that we've talked a lot about. ⁓ that there's those different layers in the practice. And ⁓ the more we thought about it and ⁓ the more we tried to explain it to different ⁓ dentists and different practitioners and office managers, ⁓ the more we decided that ⁓ a good approach would be to write a book about it, ⁓ using kind of a fable to explain the concept. So Yeah, the the point that really came up, and we've talked about it in a lot of our episodes so far, is the kind of squeeze that's happening in the dental industry. It's a different viewpoint that we have that we take with our clients and with marketing for dentists in general. And we wanted to outline that in a way that's digestible for dentists so that they can understand and apply these principles in their practice. For sure. I mean, it's what they're feeling, you know, as we've talked with. hundreds of of dentists. They ⁓ they all are expressing the same pressure that that costs continue to, you know, squeeze from the bottom and and at the same time, fees and particularly reimbursements just aren't keeping pace. So what that's doing is really squ squeezing the margins, you know, squeezing the take home pay that's available for private practice owners and and as as they've looked for ways to to respond to that, that's what really has ⁓ has reinforced or is brought to bear the the idea that they need to look at things differently than they have historically or at least over the last 10-15 years. Yeah. The book starts with talking about the boiling frog analogy. And as most people know, the boiling frog, you put a frog in boiling water, as the water starts to heat up, the frog doesn't jump out if it's heating slow enough and eventually it's too late, the water's boiling and the frog is is dying in the water. And so we start out with that analogy because that's sort of what's happened in the dental industry. For sure. And and if we look at it just from the the marketing perspective, ⁓ if we take that filter, what's what's really happened is that things worked well enough, especially with the introduction the introduction of Google and ⁓ and that online marketing platform, th it worked well enough that people got complacent. It ⁓ a lot of practices were were growing. And they it it it became easy. So there there just was less attention paid to some of the area other areas of the practice. Dentist practices aren't different than other businesses. You know, they have some unique characteristics, but at the end of the day, they're still a small business. And what we have realized and what we've what we've experienced is that some of those business practices that are common in other other ⁓ industries, ⁓ there's just not the same awareness. There hasn't been the same awareness anyway, in some of these small practices of what those key business ⁓ considerations are. Yeah. And I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that dentists are part of the healthcare industry. The healthcare industry as a whole is big business. Dentists are kind of siloed in this unique way where they have their own separate insurance. They all or a lot of them operate as like kind of an independent brick business. Where 75% of doctors operate in a big hospital, 75% of dentists are independent practice. And so rather than looking at their marketing like maybe a hospital would, they should be looking at their marketing more like a small business owner. Yeah, and and particularly a local business. Yeah. You know, they are not an e-commerce, they are not a a a a business that is going to have wide reach in terms of ⁓ the clientele that they draw in. And so you know, particularly as DSOs and some of these other pressures have come to bear, the opportunity is to take that small business approach, that brick and mortar ⁓ marketing approach, ⁓ and leverage the advantages that come with it, while recognizing the risks of ⁓ of ⁓ of the ⁓ digital first approach or oftentimes digital only approach that ⁓ that we're seeing in a lot of practices where They associate marketing with Google Rankings or Google ads or Facebook ads. And there's just limitations on how far that can take you. And that's the pressure that a lot of ⁓ of the practices are feeling right now. And we felt that ⁓ in our own set of clinics. We operated ⁓ clinics across eight different states, and we tried to compete in the digital first marketing approach and found that a lot of the things that we were doing weren't effective and the things that no one was telling us to do were the things that were actually working for our clinics. And yeah, it's a great point. And you know, our history is ⁓ you know, is summarized in in the book ⁓ as as why we where where this paradigm came from, where this framework came from. ⁓ it and and not only did we try it, it was what people told us to try. And when we were struggling the the answer was always maybe adjust a few keywords or Or change your approach slightly in terms of the digital appro ⁓ the digital focus, but the answer was also always spend more. Yeah. You know, that was more of the same was was the feedback that we got from the marketing agencies we were working with, to the point that we were spending hundreds of thousands of dollars in marketing every month and the and and we weren't getting the results that we needed. And yet the answer was always just tweak a little around the edges and spend more. And after we recognized the the the failure of that model, we started looking at these other opportunities like you mentioned and and realized that there are just other elements that need to be ⁓ taken into account. Yeah. The book highlights a lot of the kind of internal systems where there might be leaky buckets. And that's what we call our expensive education, where we were spending a ton on marketing and then we Audited our call center and some of the clinic's best practices and patients weren't converting, not because we didn't have enough throughput, but simply because we didn't have the systems in place to convert those patients and and have them come back. For sure. And so when we say inside out, that's what we what we really learned is if you try to minimize the loss or the leaks. inside the practice and at the same time really try to amplify the opportunities that you have via referral or reactivation within the framework of the you know within the walls of the clinic those that you you sort of own there are there's a lot of revenue that you can that that you can generate just from that alone but it also Allows you not only to be more efficient on whatever spend you are doing on the marketing side or effort you're doing on the marketing side, but it it gives you better information. You're you're going to be more ⁓ effective in terms of the targeting. So there's just so much value by by refining those internal systems and internal strategies. ⁓ that's why we really highlight that as in the book is kind of the first place to really start is ⁓ is by looking internally at where those opportunities lie. Yeah. Let's go through the book maybe a little bit high level overview. We kind of talk about it. ⁓ we have a a tooth with a geode on the front because it really is inside out. The the kind of valuable stuff starts inside and and works out. ⁓ we have kind of a few layers. Let's maybe walk through those. Yeah, and the the so we really talk about three layers in this inside out framework and really a fourth if you ⁓ start with differentiation. So let's start with that that first layer or pre-layer, which is really defining who you are, you know, and who you are the best fit for. the one of the problems with the digital marketplace is that it really encouraged copycatting. And so what you end up with is most dental websites, most ⁓ online presences ⁓ are are really indistinguishable. I don't know, you know, if if if that's the f the right way to frame that or not, but it it just there is it doesn't encourage. Google has not encouraged you to be different and to really highlight what is different about. Your practice. Yeah, and we see with a lot of people, a lot of dental practices that they focus on cheaper keywords because they're higher volume, like general dentistry or emergency dentistry. But those are also the lowest value patients on an ongoing basis, where I think a lot of people are afraid to target higher value cases like full mouth restorations or implants because the spend is so expensive. And what we found is that. The real key is to make that marketing component complementary to what's happening on top of the dental practice. And it starts with identifying who are the ideal patients that you want to see. What's your ideal case? What's the kind of ideal patient flow through your practice? Yeah, and it's it's a there's a nuance to it that a lot of people miss that there's a a concern that dentists And all small business owners face that they just want to make sure they're getting more calls. And so a lot of that digital strategy, the promise is is, hey, all you need to do is pay for ads and you'll get phone calls. And there's some level of truth to that. But at the same time, if you're getting calls from people who are just all caught, you know, price sensitive, ⁓ if they're if it's all about insurance coverage. and doing the minimum amount of work. If there are people that are just gonna be poor patients, you know, poor quality patients over the long term, getting more of those isn't isn't a solution. In fact, oftentimes it's just exacerbating the underlying problem of of profitability and and and ⁓ practice sustainability. So the promise of digital marketing oftentimes is it's a it's a a mirage. It looks great from a distance, but when you when you get up and realize, ⁓ this is the kind of patients or the kind of calls that we're getting. And the no sh the people that don't show up for ⁓ you know their their appointments, all all of that, you you've just created a bigger problem. You haven't solved it. And so that's what some of that identification of you know, who are we? What is our kind of core value? What is the, you know, the essence of of our practice. And who matches up with that? who's the right fit? Yeah. Depending on patient quality, you could be less busy and make more money, or more busy and make less money. And that's kind of the false dichotomy that's created by ads where you feel like you're getting more people, so you should be making more money, but that's not always the case. Yeah, and and we I mean, not to get too far into that, because we'll talk a little bit more about the digital element as a separate layer, but ⁓ it it really There is a liberation that we found with our clients when they're really able to say, this is who we are. And it doesn't mean that you dump all of your client base or anything like that, or your patient base, or anything like that, but just getting that clarity and starting to ask the questions of who is it that we we're the best fit for and where are they? How do we target them? It it just results in. The right questions are more satisfying questions, and consequently, you know, better answers and better, better focus. But again, that's not an exercise that ⁓ that we found a lot of practices do is really differentiate themselves. We see a lot of sort of ⁓ marketing slogans that have been pitched. You know, we're family friendly and you know, we're ⁓ high quality dentistry, you know, a lot of things that are very generic. But it's it they're the type of things that you could take and apply to every single dental practice, you know, the fifty dental practices within 10 miles of you, and and it would be equally true of of or at least all of them would represent it as being equally true of them. ⁓ so it's it's not about you know those kind of slogans. It's really, you know, getting a better sense of of who you are and and who's the right fit. Yeah, and as we move into that kind of first or second layer, depending on how you look at it, of the internal systems. I just want to point out that this identity, a lot of people I think view it as important for the practice owner or the dentist. But this is something that all of the staff, the front desk, the office manager, the hygienists, the assistants, everyone, if they can get on board, it does create and and amplify the next layer, which is the internal layer. It's not just for those kind of running the practice. It's the whole team needs to get on board. And it is liberating. Once you kind of have a vision, people like to be part of a movement. And so it the whole staff can get excited and and move forward with growing the practice. And and so w moving from that kind of first layer of that differentiation or identity into the second layer like you're talking about, it's important to recognize that it's not just about operational efficiency. You know, it really is about practice effectiveness. And that does take the form of maybe some automations or or a focus on making sure that that you're answering a higher percentage of phone calls or whatever it might be. There may be some of those tactic or efficiency type things for sure. And you want to identify those and reduce those leaks. But there's also the effectiveness where each Patient interaction is intended to advance the probability that they will come back, that they will accept treatment recommendations, that they'll refer. All of that happens as a consequence of how they feel about the practice. So to your point, 100%. It's not something that is to be on a, you know, a little plaque on the wall of the dentist, you know, as a little rah-rah. The more that identity, the more that differentiation permeates the interactions and just kind of the the culture of the practice, it it is a big revenue and profitability driver. Yeah. Yeah. I was just actually working on a report last night and I found out that only forty-one percent of new patients come back for a second visit. If they come back for a second visit, it's around 65% that come back for a third visit. As soon as you get to that third visit, it's 70, 80, 90% re are returning. And fourth visit and onwards, it's ninety to ninety-five percent are coming back. And so the more you can cultivate kind of that retention mindset for your patients and create an experience where it is enjoyable to come back and be a part of your practice, the better off your patient retention is. And we all know a retained patient is five times cheaper than a new patient. So From that perspective, it's huge. But then on the flip side, someone's having a great experience. They've been coming to you for 10 years or five years or two years, even, they're so much more likely to give you a referral at that point than trying to just swing for the fences on referrals with a first-time patient. Right. And that that low return rate that really speaks to the the commoditization of dentistry. And and this is really both on the The DSO and on Google, what they've done is they've really ⁓ reduced the the practice of dentistry to a transaction. And for DSOs where volume and scale is really the key of the business model, that's not the worst thing in the world. You know, for the private practice, there's this great opportunity to recognize that it is a relationship that you're selling. It is not dental services. Right? They can get dental services everywhere. But if the if you can create a situation where they feel like they have a relationship with you, now what happens? Retention becomes, you know, axiomatic. It's it's it's a no-brainer because they're not coming to get a cleaning, they're coming to continue this relationship they have. ⁓ treatment acceptance. Of course that's gonna go up with somebody with whom they have a trusted relationship. ⁓ that of course that's going to happen. And in terms of the referral, how much more likely is it to refer someone who, hey, I love their practice, they treat us well, they, you know, they I I know them. I I I I have a relationship with these people versus hey, they have cheap cleanings. You know, I mean it's it's just it changes everything. And so that's why why we view it as such an important opportunity. And such a missed opportunity for those that aren't focused on it. Absolutely. I just wanted to also point out that with the internal, ⁓ anyone who's in the kind of treatment plan acceptance and financing part of dentistry will just absolutely appreciate the relationship building because it changes the conversation at that point where a lot of people say, ⁓ that's too expensive, I'll defer treatment. If you have the trust built with the dentist where They feel like this person is being honest with me. They're only prescribing what I need and and what will be best for me. They're being clear in how they're communicating those things to me. They get to the financing thing, and it's not the number isn't the question. It's how do I make this work? That's a question. And then whether it's financing it over time or splitting payments, however it works, the the conversation is completely different. So it's it's not just from a clinical side that. Treatment acceptance goes up, but across the whole practice, everyone appreciates and benefits from developing these kinds of relationships with patients. And and so on the inside layer, of course, a lot of that might feel like platitudes. You know, everyone would say, ⁓ of course, you need to have a you know a friendly practice and everything. The the point that we like to emphasize is one, the mechanics, so the discipline and the efficiency pieces. They provide the framework that allows you to then be more consistent in implementing some of those those effectiveness things. So it it is something like anything where it requires intentionality. I mean, it has to be something that is a priority, not a nice to have, but really viewed as a need to have. You know, it's like i if if there's a a a piece of equipment that you don't have that you need, you don't just say, well, you know, whatever. It it it it it is an essential you you have to solve how to get it in order to continue to practice, you know, that el that element of dentistry. It needs to be that it needs to be highlighted with that type of necessity if if you're really wanting to grow a practice. Because those that get it right, getting more patients is it really becomes a non issue. They can be selective of the type of patients they, you know, they want and the types of of of treatments they're going to focus on or whatever. That that's the result. You know, so so it it really is important. now the the next layer up is and it it becomes ⁓ there there's a a synergy when you're really focused on that community layer. Yeah. And so that's why that's the next layer is you go from Identity or differentiation to those inside considerations, and then really looking at how do you make those connections with the community. Yeah, there's countless opportunities in any community to network with other business owners, to provide mouth guards for a school sports team, ⁓ to go out and do education events for the local community. And those are the things that Continue to cement that relationship-driven patient where the patient is coming to you and then they hear, hey, he sponsors my kids' high school, or they taught they're teaching this class, I'm gonna go attend. And it just continues to compound that trust that is developed in clinic first, and then attract more patients where now you're getting referral word going out. And then you're kind of doing outbound coming in in terms of some of these community and local engagement events. Yes, and and an important thing to to recognize is that the term community, it's not the same as neighborhood. You know, neighborhood tends to be geographically bounded. Community isn't r isn't actually com geographically bounded. It really means connection. And so what we say what we see with a lot of practices is they're trying to do that kind of community outreach. And they're doing so sponsoring a lot of teams or or trying to work with schools or what ⁓ whatever it might be, but there isn't really a cohesive message as to why they're attempting to connect with with whomever they're trying to connect with. And so this comes back to that identity question. Who is the right fit. Now it really may be that neighborhood focus where it is just geographically, we take care of ours. And that's a powerful message. And it's it's an important message if that's the approach that a practice is going to take, to make that super clear. You know, to to to make you you and and the the thing, the math that's important is you don't need 50,000 patients. You know, a practice can't handle that many. So you need to really be cognizant of what is the patient ⁓ count that you're needing for the practice that you're wanting. And oftentimes it's a lot the the the community that can produce it is a lot smaller than it initially feels like. Yeah, I mean running some of these reports for these dental practices, just looking at a geographic boundary of 10 or 15 minutes, it's astounding the amount of dental work that is produced in these areas. ⁓ so capturing just your share of that big pie is more than enough for a lot of these practices. It's just being efficient about how you're tackling those things. And so depending on again, going all the way back to the identity, but then looking at the internal systems as well, what is kind of the goal for the practice? We have One client that we work with that their practice does a lot of sleep disorder treatment. And so his community, this dentist community, involves a lot of pediatricians and getting involvement with them to help their them recognize the signs and symptoms in their patients. And ENTs on the other side, where they're already treating a lot of these airway issues and and Creating that community that way. It may not be necessarily so much school sponsors that works for the community outreach. So it really does come, everything builds. That's again why it's the inside out practice. ⁓ it builds from the inside and that internal identity going outwards. And and yeah, and and so there may be certain treatment types ⁓ or focuses that you have that would drive some of the decision of what your community looks like. It may also just be interests and and the the places where you're already connected with a you know with a broader community ⁓ you know if you're engaged in say the the mountain bike community or or something like that that's leverageable and it can expand the radius relating to that particular affinity group ⁓ is is the term that's often used in marketing but but pay attention to where you're already connected And recognize that that you do have a community. All practices have a community. Not only the dentists, but the staff, associate ⁓ dentists as well. They have connections that can be leveraged if they're done so intentionally. Not not in a utilitarian way. We're not talking about being disingenuous, but make instead making the identity of the practice match what your identity is. And the connections that you already have. That's your community. And there's always going to be opportunities to be better at tying in and creating those relationships in your community, whatever that is, and or communities, I should say. It's not, it doesn't mean that there's only one, but just being aware of how you can connect with people and and develop and and and utilize the relationships that are naturally going to to to be a part of who you are and and where your focus is. Yeah. And I I think that this is a great segue into expanding into the digital layer. Because once you develop your ideal community, let's say you're into mountain biking and that's kind of the those are your people and they're the patients that you're going to be able to connect with in office. When you run ads, make sure that's a part of it. It does on the landing page, have the a part of your about me be that you're into mountain biking. And you'll start to create these w based on your internal identity, the the systems that you're creating in practice, and the communities that you're trying to target. You you can form much more effective digital campaigns. And it may be Google Ads, which is kind of standard practice, but it may be somewhere else. It may be Facebook groups, it may be some of these other things. ⁓ Reddit, I know is ⁓ super popular. For ads for certain industries as well. And so there are just different opportunities. As long as you understand all of those downstream layers, the digital layer can be super effective. It's just when you start there with kind of a generic, we're a great dentist, that's where it fails. Yes, we we say it we like it to be the amplifier, not the initiator. ⁓ and and on the flip side of the coin, you brought up a lot of great examples of. how to do it right. On the flip side, what we see so many practices doing because it's what marketing agencies recommend, because it's what's easiest and most profitable for the marketing agency is a lot of promotion heavy advertising. So the, you know, 49 or 79 or 99 dollar cleaning, ⁓ that that is the lead or that is the approach that the majority of practices that we see are utilizing. And you have to just take a step back and say, what is the patient profile for whom that approach is going to work? Yeah, I actually have a great example. My wife's aunt is one of those patients. And ⁓ we talked to her a little bit about what we're doing, and she said, Yeah, I'm definitely not the ideal patient because I've been to six different dentists for my last six cleanings. I just find who has a cheap deal and go there next. And so she is part of that 59% statistic that's Skidaddling after visit one. And skedaddling is a great word. But that is what you have to be mindful of. Because what has changed, and we saw big changes in 2025, and we're and it's just in a continue to increase, is more personalized search results. Where local search, if I'm even if I'm searching dentists near me, if I move into an area and I'm looking for a new dentist, Google knows a lot about me. They know about my search. Patterns. They know about my purchasing patterns. And if I'm the type ⁓ of digital user that is always looking for those inexpensive options, Google's going to feed that to me. You know, that's that's who they're those practices are who they're going to show to me. Conversely, if I'm someone that's always looking for, you know, really high authority and and I do research and I'm looking for Quality, not cheapest price, Google recognizes that, and more and more they're going to send me ⁓ search results that align with my personality, my persona. So when you think about that and you're running ads, if your approach is we're cheap, you will get more of the looking for cheap patients. That's who you're gonna get, that's the flow you're gonna get. And we hear from so many dentists, boy, my you know, I'm getting calls, but it's just their the patient quality is low, you know, they're just wanting cheap and everything else. Yeah, if that's who you're getting, whatever you're doing from a marketing perspective will only produce more of that. You you will never you will never win by spending more on that same marketing approach. Exactly. More of more of bad. Is more bad. It does not somehow convert to good. ⁓ and I think that that's the the myth or the great lie, and we bought into this with our with our practices, ⁓ with our clinics, that there's some threshold that if I can just get over this threshold of volume, now it's all, you know, milk and honey. And the reality is that's that is the the the great lie of. Of digital first marketing. Yeah. And I think it goes back to what we talked about at the beginning. That threshold is met. There that threshold exists, but it's for Fortune 500 corporations that big DSOs. Yeah. Big DSOs, Fortune 500 corporations, big hospital groups. It's not for a local business. It's you can't do the throughput as a dentist to make that those kind of numbers work for your practice. And so You do just need to, I mean, it ultimately dentists have kind of three choices right now moving forward into kind of the new age of digital marketing and marketing for dentistry. They can either stick with what they're doing, kind of try and ride it out, try and hit that mythical threshold. They can sell to a DSO, and that certainly takes that burden off of them, the marketing burden, and they can kind of get that threshold through. selling to a DSO or change the approach. Work from the inside out. Go back to what made dentists great. ⁓ what made being an independent dentist so appealing and what made them fixtures in their community for the last 200 years. ⁓ going back to the things that that make a practice grow. That probably sounds a little doom and gloom, but the reality is we are super Bullish or super positive about the outlook for private dental practices. That is a great model because of the advantages that it has to tie into the community and really focus on building that identity in a in a unique way. Where DSOs, that's a that that it just doesn't work that way because they've they're starting with an employee model. And so ⁓ we see that the outlook is really. ⁓ really optimistic for dental practices that focus on you know building these different layers of their practice. Yeah. So let's talk finish up talking about the book. So it was a fun ⁓ book to put together that we that we all worked on. ⁓ It's done in a fable format. So you know Patrick Lancioni and the Arbinger Institute. The goal. The goal who moves ⁓ moved my cheese kind of out of that vein. And the idea is to focus really primarily on that internal ⁓ layer. And ⁓ we expect that we'll we'll write some additional books that focus a little bit more on the other layers. But the idea was to really ⁓ help dentists understand the funnel idea, the idea of funnel, even though that is way too ⁓ overused the concept, it's still an important one to recognize that there are those different points where there is leaks. And the more that you're able to move down to a retained patient, but also one that's really an evangelist for you, one that really enjoys what you bring to the dental the dental practice and and their dental care. Yeah, we cite it all the time, but we have that dentist who has that patient that ⁓ has become an evangelist and they can trace twenty three patients, twenty three individual patients back to this single patient. And so over the course of just a few months. Yeah. And those patients are now starting to refer people. And so it does it it it snowballs ones you can kind of get some of these ideal patients in who are referring more of the ideal patients and then ⁓ like you said earlier in the podcast, the new patient conundrum just kind of solves itself. It it does, you know, and it and it if for n in no other way if it it provides clarity of how to go and find those additional those new patients. And so that's the really the focus of the book is to walk through a dentist's kind of his his increasing understanding of the power that comes from trying to solve some of those internal internal problems that he feels but doesn't necessarily hasn't really put his finger on. And so that's the purpose of the of the funnel or of sorry of the fable is to hopefully make it a little bit more understandable ⁓ and a little bit more ⁓ practical why that internal layer is so powerful. Yeah, it was a blast putting it together. We're really proud of the story and the way it does tie everything together. And we look forward to writing more of these kinds of books that help dentists continue to build out the the inside out practice. And really to understand that it is a business, but that's a good thing. You know, it's an exciting thing when you really focus on the best business practices and private practices again, part of why we're so optimistic is those best business practices ⁓ where where in other industries they they obviously improve the business, but they they don't have the characteristics that a dental practice does, where the person is coming in to see you ideally. Multiple times during the year. It's a really heavily trust-based ⁓ industry. ⁓ there's just so many great things about it that when you get the business principles right, it's a an atypically large multiplier for the private private dental practice. Absolutely. So if people want a copy of the inside out practice, the link will be in the description. You can click it through there. Get your free copy. We'll ship it out to you. ⁓ we may even sign it. Who knows? ⁓ we're not we're not big authors yet, but this is gonna be be the one. So ⁓ probably want to hold on to that autograph. as far as the podcast goes, it's been a blast having you on. It's been a blast writing the book, it's been a blast talking about it. We love talking about dentistry, the business, all of the things, the trends and and the different news that's coming out about how. Dentists, private practice dentists can own better businesses. And that's a good thing, like you mentioned. So if that's something that's interesting to you, ⁓ we are here on YouTube ⁓ or we also stream the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. So please subscribe, connect with us in the comments. We love connecting with our dentist friends, and we'll look forward to seeing you in the next one.