Latest / Scalability School / The One About Meta's Andromeda

Transcript

The One About Meta's Andromeda · Scalability School

• 0:00
  Like if I search, I'm just going to say,
• 0:02
  I like searching how to
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  like fix bloating on Instagram,
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  the type of content that
• 0:06
  I see in the organic side.
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  And if I go into my ad library and I
• 0:10
  don't see similar type
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  of content, if my product
• 0:13
  is to help with
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  bloating, then that's a problem.
• 0:15
  Because the audience that will go and
• 0:18
  look for or the
• 0:18
  algorithm that will actually show
• 0:20
  you this content that's actually doing
• 0:21
  really well, they're
• 0:22
  going to want to see the same
• 0:24
  type of stuff that actually helps them
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  and gives them
• 0:26
  insights and they will comment
• 0:27
  and share and like and all those things.
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  And I think that meta is wanting
• 0:30
  advertisers to create
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  more content like that.
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  In terms of like daily spend around your
• 0:35
  creatives and you know that,
• 0:37
  then you can do a few things
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  that can actually build upon that.
• 0:39
  So that means like building a freelander,
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  listicle, specifically
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  focused on that group
• 0:44
  of people talking about the problems,
• 0:46
  talking about whatever that is.
• 0:47
  If that's your brand, if your brand can
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  do that, if that's
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  something that you would be,
• 0:50
  that would be helpful for you.
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  That's something I could
• 0:52
  see working really well.
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  And that does work really well.
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  Then that actually can create more scale
• 0:56
  behind that group because
• 0:57
  there you're speaking directly
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  to what the issues are, not just on your
• 1:00
  ads, but also on like more of a listicle
• 1:02
  or advertorial type of setting.
• 1:04
  I come from health and wellness, so
• 1:05
  that's kind of very focused for me.
• 1:07
  Not to extend this point too long, but
• 1:08
  like you just mentioned
• 1:09
  creators, like when we
• 1:10
  were talking about landing pages and
• 1:11
  offers, like that's another way to do it.
• 1:12
  So you just take the core message and you
• 1:14
  go find creators that
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  resonate with that message
• 1:16
  that's working.
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  And then they're best
• 1:17
  suited to go talk about it.
• 1:18
  Like when you do your creator briefs, if
• 1:19
  you find the right
• 1:20
  creator, you don't have to
• 1:21
  explain to them the problem that you're
• 1:23
  solving because it's like
• 1:23
  they intimately understand
• 1:25
  it and they make better
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  briefs as a result of that.
• 1:27
  On the other side, I've been so focused
• 1:28
  on paid, but it's kind of merging.
• 1:30
  So that is like, what's your experience
• 1:32
  going to be across the board?
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  And if you have a bad experience on the
• 1:35
  organic side, then
• 1:35
  they're probably going to ding.
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  So you have to really
• 1:37
  focus on better organic.
• 1:39
  So that would be one thing.
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  The other thing that I'm focusing on.
• 1:43
  And now let's take a listen to the
• 1:50
  Scalability School podcast.
• 1:52
  Okay.
• 1:53
  Welcome to another episode of the
• 1:54
  Scalability School
• 1:55
  podcast talking about Andromeda.
• 1:58
  Wow.
• 1:58
  So congratulations to all the tens of
• 1:59
  listeners that brought us here with our
• 2:02
  Ferraris we're getting off of
• 2:04
  sponsorships and shit.
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  It's insane.
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  So thank you.
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  We were making so much money off of this.
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  It's, it's crazy.
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  It's, I think it's more impressive.
• 2:12
  This comes out in order of like, if it
• 2:14
  comes out in order that
• 2:15
  this is actually 20, I
• 2:16
  think that would be super impressive.
• 2:18
  This is coming to probably won't.
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  Yeah.
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  Right.
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  We're, we're a very
• 2:21
  high production podcast.
• 2:23
  Somebody asked me the other day if we
• 2:24
  were going to get better cameras.
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  And I was like, probably not.
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  To be honest with you.
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  We're too locked in on the ad accounts.
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  That's right.
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  Too locked in.
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  Well, for those of you that don't know,
• 2:31
  Daniel O'Con is a incredible brand
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  owner, agency owner, dear friend of mine,
• 2:36
  dear friend of the podcast.
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  I'm somebody who I absolutely love and
• 2:39
  respect so much and is a brother to me.
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  So I'm excited to have you here, Daniel,
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  and talking about everything related to
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  Andromeda and the way
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  things are working for you.
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  I'm excited to be here.
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  And this is the only
• 2:53
  podcast I listened to.
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  So other than some other ones that are
• 2:56
  not e-count focused, this is literally.
• 2:59
  It's super actionable.
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  So it's actually really exciting to be on
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  this and hopefully I can
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  share some dual value as well.
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  Well, that's, I were glad to hear it.
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  Yeah.
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  I mean, we're honored that you chose to
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  take time out to talk about this.
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  So today we're talking about Andromeda
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  and in case you don't
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  know, basically we're
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  just going to run
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  through this really briefly.
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  And Brad, give me some color and Daniel,
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  feel free to chat in.
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  So Andromeda decides, you know, they
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  rebuilt, Andromeda is like how
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  Meta rebuilt, but besides how, what ad
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  gets shown, it's one big system now.
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  And so the smaller ones and the system
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  prefers creative variety.
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  That's the big one.
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  So if the ads look or feel too similar,
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  Meta basically do duplicates them
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  and it reduces your reach.
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  Um, so you need different
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  types of ads, not small tweaks.
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  Then you talk about gem, which this is
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  Meta reading and watching.
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  Your ads more like a human would, it
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  understands the message, not just the
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  words or visuals, and if your ads say the
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  same thing, Meta sees them as repetitive.
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  So again, same type of thing.
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  You know, and then there's lattice, which
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  is the third system, which is Meta
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  figuring out what's working faster.
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  So you don't need to like run things for
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  as long as of a test as you used to
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  and that kind of thing.
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  So these are kind of the three systems.
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  But I think with the advent of Andromeda,
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  especially, and the
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  differences that we've
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  had to see coming out of it in terms of
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  creative, that's what
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  we're talking about today.
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  Right.
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  What are the big swings creatively that
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  people that you've had to go through and
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  that you've had to really develop to be
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  able to reach net new people because you
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  can't keep showing them the variations on
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  the same shit, Brad color on this.
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  Daniel let's rock.
• 4:36
  Yeah.
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  So I think a lot of people have been, not
• 4:38
  that it really matters, but like a
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  lot of people have been lumping all of
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  this into just the Andromeda name.
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  But I think it's all
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  kind of goes together.
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  So I actually heard recently, like a way
• 4:49
  of how this flows really nicely.
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  And it's to your point, it's kind of like
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  gem is like the personalized
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  library on an individual level.
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  It's like what you care about
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  as a, as a potential customer.
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  Lattice is your preferences across
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  content type platform objective.
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  And it tries to combine those libraries
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  into like one general understanding of
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  this is everything that
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  you care about as a person.
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  That's a very simplified version of it.
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  There's one thing that is also useful,
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  which is the sequencing of all that.
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  And I hear this word sequencing several
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  times and it's the way that meta
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  specifically
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  described, it was interesting.
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  And they're like, Hey, think about it is
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  you get served a snowboard ad and you buy
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  a snowboard and instead of seeing a bunch
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  of snowboards moving forward in your ads,
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  it's, you see the ski trip next, like the
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  ski trip to buy or the boots or whatever.
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  It's like, it's a
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  better flow of seeing ads.
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  I'm sure we all have been scarred by
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  like, you want to buy
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  a mattress, you know,
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  three years ago as you click a mattress
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  ad, it's like, Oh my God, my entire
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  feed is fricking mattress ads.
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  I cannot escape.
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  It's like, I bought one, leave me alone.
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  And so sequencing is
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  doing a better job of that.
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  I, my, I think, and I may be wrong on
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  this, so anybody feel free to correct me,
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  but I think sequencing also matters in
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  terms of like an individual advertiser.
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  Right.
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  So Daniel, think about your brand.
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  It's like, I'm sure you think about
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  building ads that speak to
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  people at different phases.
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  It's like, you know, a lot of people talk
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  about this as top of funnel,
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  middle funnel, bottom of funnel, or
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  unaware through product or whatever that,
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  that flow is.
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  So it's sequencing both on a product and
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  what you're interested in, but also
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  sequencing as in people might need to see
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  different messages from advertisers
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  in order to feel
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  comfortable making a purchase.
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  Uh, and then Andromeda is the, is like
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  the thing that it's like way more
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  computing power, I don't know.
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  I'm, you know, whatever.
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  I can't say a touch grass, but maybe I
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  touch grass more than the
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  people that built, built Andromeda, but
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  it's like the power.
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  It's like the power
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  behind all that, that helps it.
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  It goes through the ads at a much faster
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  rate to find the one that matches you
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  in this moment when you open up Facebook,
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  you open up Instagram
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  and start scrolling.
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  That flow of it was, was really
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  interesting to me to hear it kind of
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  positioned in that way.
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  Um, so yeah, hopefully we can give some
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  tactical things to say.
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  I was like, this is what we're doing with
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  that information in mind.
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  I think that's good.
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  I mean, I think Daniel has gone through,
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  Daniel has gone through so much of this
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  and like thinking about
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  this in the last few months.
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  So Daniel, walk us through like you
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  hearing this, the changes, the way
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  that you thought about this, the deep
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  introspection that
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  you've done surrounding
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  this, and then the work that's resulted
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  and results out of it too.
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  Yeah.
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  So I think some of the things that are
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  helpful in this is like, actually as a
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  user, like people need to go onto
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  Instagram, like a lot of people are like,
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  I don't use Facebook,
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  I don't use Instagram.
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  Like go onto Instagram and search for the
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  things that people in your like
• 7:24
  customer base are searching for.
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  I mean, there's a lot of research that
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  you need to do to understand them better.
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  But I think what's changing is the, the
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  way that people are buying and what,
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  how meta is actually going in front of
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  people is like you said, Brad, like
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  there is this unaware to like, like
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  problem where to solution where to like
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  product aware, and you have to be
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  building out creative and your strategy
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  needs to actually be focused on how are
• 7:49
  you approaching these people?
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  And if you're actually creating the same
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  stuff, like what I'm seeing is.
• 7:54
  We saw stuff working in the past that was
• 7:56
  like doing great, getting to people,
• 7:58
  new customers and new audiences.
• 7:59
  But a lot of brands are seeing that like
• 8:01
  net new reach go down, down, like down
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  further and further and further because
• 8:05
  they're not actually creating
• 8:07
  different types of creatives.
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  That's wildly different.
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  So like, if you think about some like AI
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  looking thing that you probably a brand
• 8:15
  owner would like be scared of to be
• 8:18
  putting in their ad account versus
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  something that's like wildly interesting
• 8:22
  and unique, like you have to create
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  wildly different types of creatives.
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  And then you have to understand your
• 8:28
  customer, like what their like desires
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  or what their like needs are and what
• 8:32
  their pain points are and like what
• 8:33
  you're actually speaking to.
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  Because if you look at the core and
• 8:38
  understanding this audience of your
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  audience, like if, if I search, I'm just
• 8:42
  going to say, like searching how to like
• 8:44
  fix bloating on Instagram, the type of
• 8:47
  content that I see in the organic side.
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  And if I go into my ad library and I
• 8:51
  don't see similar type of content, if my
• 8:54
  product is to help with bloating, then
• 8:56
  that's a problem because the audience
• 8:59
  that will go and look for or the
• 9:01
  algorithm that will
• 9:02
  actually show you this
• 9:03
  content that's actually doing really
• 9:04
  well, they're going to want to see the
• 9:07
  same type of stuff that actually helps
• 9:09
  them and gives them insights and they
• 9:10
  will comment and share and
• 9:11
  like and all those things.
• 9:13
  And I think that meta is wanting
• 9:15
  advertisers to create
• 9:16
  more content like that.
• 9:18
  So that they actually get, you know, more
• 9:20
  reach, lower cost per click, higher
• 9:23
  engagement rates, all that stuff, longer
• 9:25
  watch time and our engagement.
• 9:27
  So we need to become smarter at like
• 9:29
  researching our customers and
• 9:31
  understanding them deeply and talking and
• 9:34
  saying the words that they say and
• 9:36
  actually like creating
• 9:37
  content they consume.
• 9:38
  Because if we don't do that, then we're
• 9:40
  just going to like, if we look at
• 9:42
  somebody's ad library and try to copy
• 9:44
  that, it's not going to work.
• 9:45
  It maybe worked before,
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  it doesn't work anymore.
• 9:48
  I think you just gave like an insane hack
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  that I had not thought about.
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  And I did it as you were talking.
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  I literally just typed in bloating to my
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  search bar and I'm looking at the
• 9:57
  visual differences and what I'm seeing.
• 9:58
  It's like, okay, they're probably talking
• 10:00
  about similar things, but even the
• 10:02
  visual distinctness and like what I'm
• 10:03
  seeing and there's, I'm only, I can only
• 10:05
  see nine things I
• 10:06
  haven't scrolled at all.
• 10:07
  But as I'm starting to scroll, it's like,
• 10:08
  oh, there's a bunch of different
• 10:10
  visuals, like this is crazy.
• 10:12
  Like, and this is sorted by probably the
• 10:13
  most relevant stuff, maybe to me, right?
• 10:15
  Maybe there's some stuff that's a little
• 10:16
  bit more adjusted for me, but have you
• 10:19
  actually done that?
• 10:20
  Like, is that what you do when you, when
• 10:21
  you're, you're doing this research is
• 10:22
  like, you're going in
• 10:22
  and researching this thing.
• 10:23
  And then it's like, you're watching
• 10:25
  probably the individual content, but also
• 10:26
  like that grid just gave me like a ton of
• 10:28
  inspiration for how to
• 10:30
  communicate these things.
• 10:32
  Yeah.
• 10:32
  And, and I think if you, if you go like
• 10:34
  deeper and in your research and your
• 10:36
  customer, you're
• 10:37
  understanding their problems, right?
• 10:39
  And then you understand
• 10:40
  what questions they're asking.
• 10:41
  And then you put those
• 10:41
  questions into place like that.
• 10:44
  And yes, that's part
• 10:44
  of my process for sure.
• 10:47
  Guess what AI can't do that right now.
• 10:49
  Like AI is not going to go and tell you
• 10:50
  like these were the most viral videos.
• 10:52
  And they're going to tell
• 10:53
  you exactly what they said.
• 10:54
  You have to go and do this yourself and
• 10:56
  do some manual work, which people really
• 10:59
  see not to like to do.
• 11:00
  They want to like put a prompt into chat
• 11:02
  TBT and spit out the best solution.
• 11:04
  But I think that that to me is like one
• 11:06
  of the best ways to actually understand
• 11:08
  your audience because your customers are
• 11:11
  watching this stuff and you have to
• 11:13
  understand what
• 11:14
  they're actually consuming.
• 11:15
  And, and like, right.
• 11:16
  It took like 20 seconds.
• 11:17
  Anybody could do it quickly.
• 11:18
  That could help you market a lot better
• 11:20
  as a, as a marketer and a brand owner.
• 11:22
  Yeah.
• 11:23
  That's sweet.
• 11:23
  I'm literally, I think I'm going to send
• 11:25
  a screenshot of that to our team and be
• 11:26
  like, Hey, this is a really cool idea.
• 11:28
  I was like blown away
• 11:29
  instantly from that.
• 11:30
  Like it's such a small,
• 11:31
  super quick thing to do.
• 11:32
  Okay.
• 11:33
  So you're mentioning a couple of
• 11:35
  different points around
• 11:35
  like visual diversity,
• 11:37
  like, you know,
• 11:37
  communicating things in different ways.
• 11:39
  And there, there was an interesting
• 11:40
  discussion kind of happening where we're
• 11:42
  talking about like visually diverse
• 11:45
  things and looking different.
• 11:46
  And I think we can actually talk about
• 11:47
  tactically what you can change.
• 11:50
  Um, but I think there's, there's a,
• 11:51
  there's kind of like this important
• 11:52
  distinction of, uh, like talking through
• 11:55
  creative and I'm going to see if I can
• 11:57
  frame this up in, in a way that's makes
• 11:59
  sense, but let's say you have something
• 12:01
  in your ad account that's working.
• 12:02
  Like let's use bloating and let's say you
• 12:03
  have like, it's a three reasons
• 12:05
  why video from a female creator.
• 12:07
  And like, that's the
• 12:07
  thing that's that's working.
• 12:09
  What, but I don't think meta is
• 12:11
  necessarily suggesting.
• 12:12
  And what we're not seeing is like, you
• 12:13
  need to completely abandon like that
• 12:15
  format of video, that type of message,
• 12:17
  that type of creator, like you can.
• 12:20
  If you create ads that are similar to
• 12:22
  that, that meta buckets into similar,
• 12:24
  like a similar, that similar bucket, what
• 12:26
  they're not saying is that can't
• 12:28
  make your ad performance in
• 12:29
  that bucket more efficient.
• 12:31
  You can, you can get a
• 12:32
  little bit more scale.
• 12:33
  What they are saying is that you're
• 12:34
  probably not going to get a ton of
• 12:35
  like volume out of that.
• 12:36
  Like if you think it's really easy to
• 12:38
  think about this in the
• 12:38
  framework of cost controls, right?
• 12:39
  If you have an inflated budget and you
• 12:41
  keep making all of the same stuff, it's
• 12:42
  like, it might get a
• 12:43
  little bit more efficient.
• 12:44
  You might get a little bit
• 12:45
  more delivery, five to 10%.
• 12:47
  We're probably not doubling your budget.
• 12:49
  Like you're not really expanding out in a
• 12:51
  way that's going to lead to
• 12:52
  like a ton of meaningful scale.
• 12:53
  So I'm curious, like when you are
• 12:55
  thinking about making ads, like are you,
• 12:58
  I've heard this, I think for a manager of
• 12:59
  affairs, he called, he's like,
• 13:00
  he's a expansion and exploration.
• 13:03
  I think it's a really
• 13:03
  interesting way to frame that up.
• 13:05
  But, um, I guess like in that context,
• 13:07
  like, you know, how are you
• 13:08
  thinking about that piece specifically?
• 13:10
  Like, are you trying every single piece
• 13:11
  of creative you make is like
• 13:13
  completely new
• 13:13
  motivator, completely new persona?
• 13:16
  Like how do you diversify within the
• 13:19
  framework of like what's working
• 13:20
  today and keeping that
• 13:22
  thing pulled forward?
• 13:24
  Yeah.
• 13:24
  So I think like essentially what we do is
• 13:28
  we, the best way to go about this,
• 13:30
  especially if you have limited resources,
• 13:32
  most brands that do in the smaller
• 13:34
  medium size is testing through diverse
• 13:37
  images that either could be native
• 13:40
  looking short B roll type of stuff with
• 13:44
  the different type of headlines
• 13:45
  that you could use based on that avatar
• 13:47
  based on sub avatar, whatever you call
• 13:49
  it and doing those tests like wildly
• 13:51
  different based on the highest possible
• 13:55
  chance of, of, I would say like winning,
• 13:58
  winning grouping of, of this sub avatar.
• 14:00
  So that you would do that.
• 14:02
  Maybe do these tests, test these concepts
• 14:05
  out, X amount of like a test
• 14:07
  you can do depending on your ad budget.
• 14:09
  And maybe that means like three to five
• 14:12
  different ones a day or one to two
• 14:14
  a day, whatever you can do
• 14:15
  over time to test that out.
• 14:17
  And then once you find stuff that is
• 14:19
  actually performing well, because
• 14:21
  meta is going to pick up quickly.
• 14:23
  And I think like you guys are going to
• 14:25
  talk about this where like, actually
• 14:27
  it doesn't take that much time and spend
• 14:30
  to see what's working.
• 14:32
  So you can actually get something like we
• 14:33
  had something based on our research
• 14:35
  and we put in that account on Monday and
• 14:37
  it's now the top spender in one of our
• 14:39
  accounts and it's just clear that
• 14:42
  metametano is in the CPA is amazing.
• 14:44
  Like it's super top of funnel and it's
• 14:47
  getting people through because
• 14:48
  we hit on the specific things.
• 14:50
  And now we're going to take that from
• 14:52
  that ad, which is just a very simple
• 14:55
  static ad and we will start to build out
• 14:58
  briefs on scripts to build out
• 15:00
  different concepts for like videos that
• 15:02
  will be specifically based on that.
• 15:03
  And I think that's what you should be
• 15:05
  doing is testing stuff that you can
• 15:07
  test quickly through images, short videos
• 15:10
  that are really easy to kind of put
• 15:12
  together for your team and then take
• 15:14
  those tests and find out whatever those
• 15:16
  winners are and do it
• 15:17
  in a systematic way.
• 15:19
  Because I think a lot of people try to
• 15:20
  like test in a really like chaotic way.
• 15:23
  And like try to spray and pray based on
• 15:25
  your research, based on your
• 15:27
  highest chance of success, then you
• 15:29
  should find winners that actually
• 15:30
  work in our impactful.
• 15:31
  I mean, that's like a, that's one of the
• 15:33
  biggest ones, right?
• 15:34
  Of the actual creative system that you
• 15:36
  have built in your organization.
• 15:37
  I think is something that a lot of brands
• 15:40
  and agency owners even are coming
• 15:41
  around on and thinking about
• 15:43
  how do we do this right way?
• 15:44
  How have you changed the structure of
• 15:47
  your organization to be creating
• 15:50
  better ads along with creating more
• 15:53
  volume of them, you know, what, who
• 15:55
  have you built in there that you didn't
• 15:57
  have before and what does the workflow
• 15:59
  look like? Because even things like
• 16:01
  tagging is so essential, right?
• 16:04
  Like versus what it was.
• 16:06
  I mean, a year ago I was like tagging was
• 16:08
  like, we would throw it on and then
• 16:10
  you just like highlighted a certain color
• 16:11
  on a Google sheet and it was like,
• 16:13
  and now the volume is such that you're
• 16:14
  like, I want to kill myself
• 16:16
  thinking about how I used to do that.
• 16:18
  So I'm wondering like, how have you built
• 16:20
  it differently now in your
• 16:21
  organization and from
• 16:23
  like a process standpoint?
• 16:24
  Yeah, it's an ongoing process because
• 16:27
  we're changing a lot of things right now.
• 16:28
  So I wish I could tell you that we have
• 16:31
  this like very clean process.
• 16:33
  I think some things that we're doing is
• 16:34
  in our naming conventions.
• 16:36
  So we have very clear naming conventions
• 16:39
  around, let's say a sub avatar.
• 16:41
  We'll just use that word.
• 16:42
  Avatar is like a core desire.
• 16:43
  Sub avatars like behaviors, experiences
• 16:46
  connected to that core desire.
• 16:48
  So let's say I'll just
• 16:49
  give an example of bloating.
• 16:50
  So I want to feel healthier.
• 16:52
  And in the past, my experience was I've
• 16:55
  experienced bloating
• 16:56
  whenever I eat pizza.
• 16:57
  We'll just use that word.
• 16:59
  That group of people that could be sub
• 17:01
  avatar, like avatar one, which
• 17:04
  I would be healthier sub avatar one is,
• 17:06
  is the person who ate pizza and gluten.
• 17:09
  And that would be like how we would do
• 17:11
  naming conventions in the ad specifically
• 17:13
  so that we can track what, what grouping
• 17:16
  is actually getting the most spend.
• 17:18
  And obviously you can use tools and
• 17:19
  notice tools like, you know, motion
• 17:21
  and other tools that you can actually
• 17:23
  take these and you can track that in
• 17:26
  those analytic tools, but I think that
• 17:28
  for us, that's kind of the biggest thing
• 17:30
  is like, how are we doing naming
• 17:32
  conventions so that we can keep things
• 17:34
  in a really organized way that we can
• 17:36
  find like what's working and what's
• 17:38
  actually deserving to spend more time to
• 17:40
  actually scale and our team can
• 17:42
  actually organize it in a way that they
• 17:43
  can actually see the
• 17:44
  results and the data better.
• 17:47
  And your team now is you, it's you and
• 17:50
  then you have creative strategists and
• 17:52
  you have like a how, who's handling
• 17:54
  creators and what does that look like?
• 17:58
  So essentially like our creative team
• 18:00
  looks like we have our head of creative
• 18:01
  strategy and that would say like
• 18:04
  overseeing about four brands.
• 18:07
  So it would say our head of creative
• 18:08
  strategy, creative strategists, our
• 18:11
  producer, which is more so like our
• 18:12
  script writer working with the creators.
• 18:14
  And then we have our video
• 18:15
  editors and graphic designers.
• 18:16
  So that's kind of like the core kind of
• 18:19
  team structure that would be
• 18:21
  working on these brands that really focus
• 18:23
  on like research, the process of
• 18:27
  getting like the script built and working
• 18:28
  with creators as well
• 18:29
  as our video editing
• 18:30
  team, and then essentially like going
• 18:32
  through that process on that loop of
• 18:34
  getting everything right now.
• 18:35
  I've been spending a lot of time myself
• 18:37
  doing a lot of research
• 18:37
  to be honest with you.
• 18:39
  I'm doing a lot of research in
• 18:41
  conjunction with my
• 18:42
  head of creative strategy.
• 18:43
  So it's, it's just something that I'm
• 18:46
  reworking a lot of this process around
• 18:48
  and I need to just do it myself and then
• 18:50
  be able to implement this process with my
• 18:51
  head.
• 18:52
  All right, friends, quick break.
• 18:53
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  the scalability school.
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  I can't wait to hear about it.
• 20:00
  I don't, I think when people say that
• 20:02
  they have it all
• 20:02
  figured out and they have
• 20:03
  this beautiful system, like it's not
• 20:04
  true, first of all,
• 20:06
  and the cell that won.
• 20:08
  Beefs.
• 20:08
  And beefs earlier.
• 20:09
  Yeah.
• 20:10
  And I think that you, yeah.
• 20:12
  I have beef with anybody that says that
• 20:13
  they have it figured out because nobody
• 20:15
  fricking does because this
• 20:15
  shit changes like every minute.
• 20:18
  But until I think to your point, Daniel,
• 20:20
  you know, you doing it yourself is, is I
• 20:23
  think maybe something that more founders
• 20:25
  want to think about and more operators
• 20:26
  want to think about, right?
• 20:27
  Because it's not to do this well.
• 20:29
  It's not something
• 20:30
  that can be outsourced.
• 20:31
  I think, you know, it can be to a degree,
• 20:33
  but to really find
• 20:35
  true unlocks, you know,
• 20:37
  I mean, you've been talking on X about
• 20:39
  how many hours you've
• 20:41
  dedicated to thinking
• 20:42
  about this, you're like, I
• 20:42
  think it's not a hundred hours.
• 20:44
  It's 300 hours, like
• 20:45
  of really understanding.
• 20:47
  And I think that gives to the, you know,
• 20:49
  you can talk about that, but that
• 20:50
  goes to that point of how long it
• 20:52
  actually takes one question I have, which
• 20:54
  we get asked all the time, I get asked
• 20:56
  all the time, people in the founders
• 20:57
  community ask all the time, and this may
• 21:00
  be simple questions, but your ads, your
• 21:03
  budget is, is, is high.
• 21:05
  You have, I think you run cost caps.
• 21:07
  And so you take a new concept that you
• 21:10
  said it's the winner.
• 21:11
  It started on Monday.
• 21:12
  Now it's like, you
• 21:12
  know, doing really well.
• 21:14
  So you put that in there and you're just
• 21:17
  putting it against preexisting creatives.
• 21:19
  Or are you starting a
• 21:19
  new thing to test it?
• 21:21
  Or like, how are you running it and how
• 21:23
  are you determining?
• 21:23
  Are you looking at soft metrics to say
• 21:25
  it's winter and then scaling it?
• 21:26
  Or are you just saying, let
• 21:27
  it fly baby and go from there?
• 21:30
  Yeah.
• 21:30
  This is a process.
• 21:33
  Uh, this is a pre-work process.
• 21:35
  So there's a couple of different things
• 21:37
  we're doing for the main, so the main
• 21:39
  process we were doing now is we do have
• 21:42
  an account that is
• 21:42
  fast cap in our, in our
• 21:44
  winning winners campaign, it would say in
• 21:46
  that, that we would put anything that we,
• 21:49
  that is a winner in there and we let it,
• 21:52
  you know, let things just like roll and
• 21:54
  get spent, we do have the ABO setup.
• 21:58
  So we do have, you know, testing
• 22:00
  campaigns and ABO, you
• 22:01
  need three to five ads for,
• 22:03
  per ad set and ABO, and we, we do let
• 22:07
  that spend and then
• 22:08
  anything that's promising,
• 22:10
  we will put into the winning
• 22:13
  campaign and let that spend.
• 22:15
  And usually like the stuff that's
• 22:16
  promising is usually show,
• 22:18
  it shows up fairly quickly.
• 22:20
  With not just soft metrics, like your
• 22:22
  click through rate, cost per click and,
• 22:23
  and your hold rate, but also just like we
• 22:25
  see stuff working fairly quickly.
• 22:28
  And that is kind of
• 22:29
  finding that this is working.
• 22:30
  And then we'll, we'll quickly raise
• 22:32
  budgets in those testing campaigns.
• 22:35
  Then with stuff that's actually starting
• 22:37
  to see good success, then usually they'll
• 22:39
  show up to be pretty strong winners in
• 22:41
  the, in the scaling campaign.
• 22:42
  So can we, can we go back to something
• 22:45
  you were saying earlier?
• 22:46
  It's like been stuck in my head, wrote
• 22:47
  down, so I wouldn't forget.
• 22:48
  You were kind of talking about like how
• 22:50
  you found with this, with the
• 22:52
  statics, like you found a thing that's
• 22:54
  working, but then what you're not
• 22:56
  doing is, okay, cool.
• 22:58
  We found that one thing.
• 22:58
  Like that's, you know, let's go.
• 23:00
  We need to find more messages.
• 23:01
  What you're saying is, okay, we've got
• 23:02
  this thing that's working.
• 23:03
  We want to pull that forward into new
• 23:05
  projects and expand the way that we're
• 23:08
  communicating it, how we're showing it,
• 23:10
  how we're doing that.
• 23:11
  Um, I have a couple of like framework
• 23:12
  things that I can list off for like how
• 23:14
  we're thinking about
• 23:15
  pulling that forward.
• 23:16
  But I'm curious, like when you find a
• 23:18
  thing that's working
• 23:19
  and it could be a video,
• 23:20
  it could be an image and whatever.
• 23:21
  It's like you have a, what you have to do
• 23:22
  is like have a hypothesis about what
• 23:24
  it is about that that's working.
• 23:26
  And then you pull that
• 23:27
  forward into new stuff.
• 23:29
  Do you guys have like a system for how
• 23:30
  you're doing it, how you think about,
• 23:32
  because that's like, that is creating
• 23:33
  diversification from that point.
• 23:36
  Diversification, like I wanted to find
• 23:38
  diversification a little bit more.
• 23:39
  So I'm curious, like, how do you, um, are
• 23:41
  you taking that and going from there?
• 23:42
  Do you have any like
• 23:43
  frameworks for how you do that?
• 23:44
  Yeah.
• 23:44
  So generally I always want to see and
• 23:47
  understand and, and the, the highest
• 23:50
  percentage of success I think is when you
• 23:52
  know that the actual like angle,
• 23:55
  we'll use angle tied to a sub avatars
• 23:57
  actually the thing, like this is
• 24:00
  the reason why it's working.
• 24:02
  And so if you know that if, and if you
• 24:04
  understand that based on your research
• 24:05
  and for example, there's one, this was my
• 24:08
  like second on my list in terms
• 24:10
  of like top chance of success.
• 24:12
  Then I know that it's not just because it
• 24:14
  was like a native image.
• 24:16
  I know that it was because of this
• 24:18
  research that I did, that that actually
• 24:20
  made an impact on the actual typos
• 24:22
  created that I created.
• 24:24
  And then this, you know, headline really
• 24:26
  worked and resonated these people,
• 24:28
  the content and the copy and then, and
• 24:31
  all those things actually was resonating
• 24:32
  with this audience and then that makes it
• 24:35
  easier for me to say like, well, now
• 24:37
  I can do deeper research on this specific
• 24:39
  angle slash sub avatar and uncover
• 24:43
  more information and find out some
• 24:46
  details that either people are already
• 24:48
  talking about on Reddit and other places.
• 24:50
  There's, there's this thing that I found
• 24:52
  out in this one process of my research.
• 24:54
  I'm not going to go deep into the
• 24:55
  details, but it's
• 24:56
  like a pyramid and a lot
• 24:58
  of people talk about how like this,
• 25:00
  there's supplements
• 25:01
  that are not effective.
• 25:03
  And this was their reasoning for why
• 25:05
  supplements aren't effective.
• 25:06
  It was essentially in Reddit.
• 25:08
  Lots of people know about this specific
• 25:10
  term and, and the word for this thing.
• 25:13
  Again, I'm, I'm drinking very vague
• 25:14
  because I'm just trying not to like talk
• 25:16
  about our specific, like brand.
• 25:18
  But when we actually dug deep into this,
• 25:21
  found out that like we can actually talk
• 25:22
  about the fact that the, our product
• 25:26
  actually is directly impacting the bigger
• 25:30
  like problem that people have and the
• 25:32
  solution to this actually like works its
• 25:35
  way into being the solution for people.
• 25:37
  And it's such a weird thing.
• 25:39
  It's like such a detail, but I wouldn't
• 25:41
  create a creative around that.
• 25:42
  I wouldn't have like a creator do a green
• 25:44
  screen talking about this thing and
• 25:46
  pointing this out if I didn't actually
• 25:47
  know that this was the angle that was
• 25:49
  going to work based on my research.
• 25:51
  So I would say like, because this process
• 25:54
  would be like finding out this
• 25:55
  conflict, the concept to me is, is not as
• 25:59
  impactful in the framework.
• 26:01
  It's like the angle connected to sub
• 26:03
  avatar, then you can
• 26:05
  make several different
• 26:06
  types of variations or concepts, whatever
• 26:08
  you want to call it.
• 26:09
  And it might be a POV.
• 26:11
  It might be like a reasons why it might
• 26:13
  be us versus them, but you should find
• 26:15
  more winners and you might find it like
• 26:18
  different types of awareness levels and
• 26:20
  different parts of the funnel on the
• 26:22
  phone or middle front top of funnel that
• 26:24
  actually build more trust and build that
• 26:27
  kind of funnel, if you will, for this
• 26:30
  customer base to actually trust you and
• 26:31
  buy from you based on that.
• 26:33
  So I would say that's how I would go
• 26:34
  about it because I think a lot of people
• 26:36
  will be like, we all we're
• 26:38
  seeing that this is trending.
• 26:39
  We're seeing that like, you know, the
• 26:41
  yapping tick tock, a person is, is
• 26:45
  trending that type of concept and they'll
• 26:47
  take that and they'll run with it.
• 26:48
  But then they're, and I'm like, but why
• 26:50
  are you, what's the perfect way?
• 26:52
  Are you trying to tell the customer like,
• 26:54
  what's your purpose behind it?
• 26:56
  Do you have any information
• 26:57
  why this is actually working?
• 26:58
  No, it's because if you actually went
• 27:00
  through the process, did the research,
• 27:02
  got the angle that's actually super
• 27:03
  strong based on the data
• 27:05
  and you build from there,
• 27:06
  you can build tons of different concepts.
• 27:08
  You definitely find a higher chance
• 27:09
  percentage of winners because of that
• 27:12
  process, I think, in my opinion.
• 27:13
  Yeah.
• 27:14
  That makes sense.
• 27:14
  And something that you mentioned, Simon
• 27:17
  in static, he said something on that
• 27:18
  episode that I thought was interesting
• 27:19
  and hopefully I'm not completely
• 27:20
  misquoting him here,
• 27:21
  but he was kind of like, you need to
• 27:23
  figure out to your point
• 27:23
  the message that you want
• 27:24
  to communicate and then you find the
• 27:26
  format for how you communicate it.
• 27:28
  Similarly, and I'll just kind
• 27:29
  of contrast with our process.
• 27:31
  It sounds really similar to yours.
• 27:32
  It's like, you have to have an idea about
• 27:33
  what is, what is working.
• 27:35
  And if you have nothing that's working,
• 27:36
  okay, that's a
• 27:36
  different, different process.
• 27:38
  But like, let's assume you're spending a
• 27:39
  couple thousand dollars, you know,
• 27:40
  low thousands, couple thousands of
• 27:41
  dollars a day, which is
• 27:42
  probably a lot of people
• 27:42
  listening to this, so you probably have
• 27:44
  some theory behind the
• 27:45
  thing that's working.
• 27:46
  And it's probably not
• 27:47
  the format of the ad.
• 27:48
  It's probably the message behind the ad,
• 27:49
  how you communicate to your point.
• 27:51
  So what you can do is if you want to
• 27:53
  diversify from there,
• 27:54
  it's like you create,
• 27:55
  you take that thing, you've got that
• 27:57
  thing, that thing that
• 27:58
  you're communicating,
• 27:58
  that main big point,
• 27:59
  it's whatever the angle is.
• 28:02
  And you can maybe diversify that across a
• 28:05
  bunch of different types of ads.
• 28:07
  I've been looking at our, we have a,
• 28:08
  we're starting to build
• 28:08
  a database of different
• 28:10
  types of ads across
• 28:11
  statics, videos, and whatever.
• 28:13
  So you go through that and you try to
• 28:14
  match that angle to a different format.
• 28:18
  So it's like big hero headline is a
• 28:20
  static review highlights
• 28:21
  that match that, that message.
• 28:23
  Native Q and A and UGC, that's one that's
• 28:24
  working really well right now.
• 28:25
  It's like, it looks like
• 28:26
  an Instagram Q and A thing.
• 28:27
  And it's like
• 28:27
  addressing that specific angle.
• 28:29
  It looks like somebody wrote a question
• 28:31
  and asking about this
• 28:32
  thing in your answer.
• 28:32
  So it's like, you take the thing, you can
• 28:35
  apply it across a
• 28:35
  bunch of these and statics
• 28:36
  are super easy to crank out.
• 28:38
  So the way that we do it is we try to do
• 28:39
  like four to 10 statics
• 28:40
  across these different,
• 28:42
  they all look different.
• 28:42
  So it's not just like changing the
• 28:43
  headline, it's the different
• 28:45
  forms with that core message
• 28:47
  and you're applying it in that way.
• 28:49
  So that's like one
• 28:49
  framework that we use for that.
• 28:51
  It sounds really
• 28:51
  similar to what you're saying.
• 28:52
  It's like take the message, apply it to
• 28:54
  the format once you have
• 28:55
  the thing that's working.
• 28:56
  The other way that I think about it is
• 28:59
  like from a visual
• 29:00
  diversity perspective is yes,
• 29:02
  you can do the, the, the actual like way
• 29:04
  that it looks with
• 29:05
  the visual style, visual
• 29:06
  side, I think is just one of them.
• 29:08
  But I think you can create diversity
• 29:09
  through a couple of other things.
• 29:10
  So like setting, it's like, where's the,
• 29:12
  like, if you're
• 29:12
  thinking about creator videos,
• 29:13
  like where's the creator actually filmed?
• 29:15
  And it's like, it doesn't mean just go
• 29:16
  sit in the car because
• 29:17
  you saw somebody filming
• 29:18
  a video, somebody sitting in a car.
• 29:19
  It's like, well, you know, the car could
• 29:21
  make sense for this
• 29:21
  reason because it looks
• 29:22
  less, you know, it looks a little bit
• 29:23
  more organic, but also
• 29:24
  like, you know, maybe in
• 29:26
  a doctor's office makes more sense for
• 29:27
  your product or whatever it is.
• 29:28
  Like so you can create a setting
• 29:30
  composition, which is like
• 29:32
  POV versus creator talking
• 29:33
  camera versus whatever context, which is
• 29:35
  like a product demo
• 29:37
  versus lifestyle usage
• 29:38
  versus gifting perspective, which is
• 29:41
  actually similar to
• 29:41
  concept visual style, which is
• 29:43
  kind of what we were just talking about.
• 29:45
  And then the talents, like the actual
• 29:46
  person in the, in the,
• 29:48
  in the ad itself, to give
• 29:49
  an example of that, we had a, we had an
• 29:50
  ad that was just like
• 29:51
  cranking from one of our
• 29:53
  clients and we took the video and it's
• 29:55
  like, well, we don't
• 29:55
  want to just like keep doing
• 29:57
  this the same way.
• 29:58
  So we just like sent the script to a
• 30:00
  slightly older creator
• 30:01
  and I was like, Hey, this,
• 30:02
  this message is working.
• 30:04
  Like she's also sitting in her car.
• 30:05
  You can sit in her car.
• 30:06
  It's like, she looks different.
• 30:07
  She's a little bit older and she starts
• 30:09
  the video talking about her age and like
• 30:11
  whatever, and then the script is
• 30:11
  literally identical otherwise.
• 30:13
  And it immediately became the, you know,
• 30:15
  it worked just as well, if not better.
• 30:17
  And so you don't always have to take
• 30:18
  these massive swings, but
• 30:19
  it's like, okay, there's
• 30:20
  a different type of person that's going
• 30:21
  to resonate with
• 30:22
  somebody who's 10 years older
• 30:23
  than the, you know, the 30 year old
• 30:25
  versus the 40 year
• 30:26
  old is going to resonate
• 30:27
  differently.
• 30:27
  So just trying to give like a specific
• 30:29
  tactical example,
• 30:30
  like where you can take,
• 30:31
  you pull forward the thing that's working
• 30:32
  to your point and then just like change a
• 30:35
  couple of things about it and you, you've
• 30:37
  get, you've reached diversity and you're
• 30:39
  not losing the element of what's actually
• 30:41
  caused the ad to work in the first place.
• 30:44
  Yeah.
• 30:45
  And I think like that
• 30:46
  is such a good point.
• 30:48
  Diversity doesn't mean diversity of like
• 30:50
  even angles, tons
• 30:52
  like trying to reach all
• 30:54
  these different types of customers.
• 30:56
  You could have a very specific angle
• 30:59
  based on a specific
• 31:01
  niche sub avatar, and that
• 31:03
  could crush, and you could probably spend
• 31:05
  five K 10 K a day just on that.
• 31:08
  If you continue to create really strong
• 31:10
  creatives, obviously it has to be a big
• 31:12
  enough grouping of people and a need, but
• 31:15
  people for me, one of
• 31:16
  the biggest mistakes
• 31:17
  I made this year, which I like kick
• 31:19
  myself for is, is I, I
• 31:20
  try to go too broad in
• 31:22
  terms of our focuses.
• 31:24
  So essentially once I started
• 31:25
  understanding a deeper
• 31:26
  understanding of like what we're
• 31:27
  trying to do, we're talking about lots of
• 31:29
  different types of desires that people
• 31:31
  had, we're talking about lots of
• 31:32
  different types of
• 31:32
  people, wildly different type of
• 31:34
  people, how to consume content.
• 31:36
  And like, then we started narrowing and
• 31:38
  like, what does this one type of person
• 31:41
  consume?
• 31:41
  What, what is their core desire?
• 31:44
  What are their problems?
• 31:45
  What are their issues?
• 31:47
  And I get very, very clear on that.
• 31:48
  It takes a lot of time to figure out just
• 31:50
  one type of person and like understand
• 31:52
  their deepest desires and deepest needs
• 31:55
  and deepest problems,
• 31:57
  and then figure out,
• 31:58
  yeah, you can create a diverse amount of
• 31:59
  content around that for them.
• 32:02
  There's so much, there's so many
• 32:03
  different types of ways
• 32:04
  you can go about that, but I
• 32:05
  think that's something for a lot of
• 32:06
  people to realize and
• 32:08
  recognize is don't go so
• 32:10
  broad in your, the way that you go about
• 32:13
  things, go broad in your diversity.
• 32:16
  And the way you're talking about, even if
• 32:17
  it's like a different age group, a person
• 32:19
  talking about this talk about the same
• 32:21
  thing, but you need to
• 32:23
  figure out what that is.
• 32:25
  But many people are not doing it in a way
• 32:27
  that's actually very actionable.
• 32:29
  Yeah.
• 32:30
  I mean, I think that's really a good
• 32:31
  point and something that
• 32:32
  hasn't been said a lot.
• 32:34
  I think a lot, a lot of the discussion
• 32:35
  around Andromeda that
• 32:36
  you said has been around
• 32:37
  finding, let's say, you know, taking
• 32:38
  Zach's example of Hollow, right?
• 32:40
  He's talking about talking to hunters.
• 32:41
  He's talking about, you know, talking to
• 32:43
  people that are mountain bikers and these
• 32:45
  are core different sets of people.
• 32:47
  And that's how you've
• 32:48
  thought about Andromeda.
• 32:49
  That's not necessarily wrong, but to your
• 32:50
  point, Daniel, it's
• 32:51
  like go depth within the
• 32:53
  niche of like within the super sub set of
• 32:56
  who these people are and understand them
• 32:58
  before you start to go out into this way,
• 33:00
  because I think
• 33:01
  there's more scale in that
• 33:04
  and more sustainable scale in the depth
• 33:07
  of understanding the core desire of that
• 33:08
  particular person.
• 33:09
  I think that's super interesting.
• 33:11
  So just for like a tactical standpoint,
• 33:13
  you're going through,
• 33:14
  you're doing all this
• 33:14
  work, you're developing these core
• 33:16
  desires more appropriately
• 33:18
  around different segments.
• 33:21
  How are you designing the customer
• 33:23
  journey then separately for them too?
• 33:25
  Are you, do you, is it, you know, landing
• 33:28
  page that then do they
• 33:29
  get a different flow?
• 33:30
  Are they, you know, like you've done all
• 33:33
  the research on the front end.
• 33:35
  Are you mirroring it then on the, on the
• 33:37
  whole thing for them to become a customer
• 33:39
  and get them to subscribe and, you know,
• 33:41
  keep them around or how
• 33:42
  are you thinking about?
• 33:43
  Yeah.
• 33:44
  So I think the key indicator is once you
• 33:48
  get to a certain amount of
• 33:49
  spend on that sub avatar in
• 33:52
  terms of like daily spend around your
• 33:54
  creatives and you know
• 33:55
  that, then you can do a few
• 33:57
  things that can actually build upon that.
• 33:59
  So that means like building a freelander
• 34:01
  listicle specifically
• 34:03
  focused on that group of
• 34:04
  people talking about the problems,
• 34:06
  talking about whatever that is.
• 34:07
  If that's your brand, if your brand can
• 34:09
  do that, if that's
• 34:10
  something that you, you would
• 34:11
  be, that would be helpful for you.
• 34:13
  That's something I could
• 34:13
  see working really well.
• 34:15
  And that does work really well.
• 34:16
  Then that actually can create more scale
• 34:18
  behind that group
• 34:19
  because there you're speaking
• 34:21
  directly to what the issues are, not just
• 34:23
  on your ads, but also on
• 34:24
  like more of a listicle
• 34:25
  or advertorial type of setting.
• 34:27
  I come from health and wellness, so
• 34:29
  that's kind of very focused for me.
• 34:31
  And you know, there's brands that aren't
• 34:32
  in that group that
• 34:33
  might not be super, that
• 34:35
  might not be helpful, but the, the next
• 34:37
  thing is also your offer.
• 34:39
  So I think like once you start to get
• 34:42
  this group of people,
• 34:43
  you might find that these
• 34:44
  people aren't willing to spend more than
• 34:46
  $50 or whatever on their first purchase.
• 34:49
  So how do you make sure that you cross
• 34:50
  the right offer for them
• 34:52
  that actually works well?
• 34:53
  I think there's a post from Nick Stockes
• 34:54
  for yesterday, he was
• 34:56
  talking about how like they,
• 34:57
  they were scaling breeze and I think they
• 34:59
  started doing like
• 35:00
  several different offers,
• 35:01
  different AOVs, different types of
• 35:02
  structures, and that
• 35:03
  helped them scale quite a bit.
• 35:05
  And I think that's something that more
• 35:07
  people will want to do.
• 35:09
  I don't think you should be doing a ton
• 35:10
  of offers like in the
• 35:12
  same, at the same time.
• 35:13
  I think testing different offers are
• 35:14
  good, but all the stuff
• 35:16
  that you're doing in terms
• 35:17
  of research should be kind of
• 35:19
  understanding what you're
• 35:20
  like, what your audience or what
• 35:23
  your new customer, what the new customers
• 35:24
  would be willing to
• 35:25
  pay, what's the best offer
• 35:27
  for them, and then what
• 35:29
  language is going to be helpful.
• 35:30
  I would say that those are certainly the
• 35:31
  most important things, especially with
• 35:33
  customer acquisition.
• 35:35
  One thing, Daniel, I've always respected
• 35:37
  about you is your
• 35:38
  ability to take on a lot of
• 35:40
  information and learn relentlessly, dive
• 35:43
  into a topic and really
• 35:44
  become obsessed with it.
• 35:47
  And because of that, you also have to
• 35:49
  separate a lot of wheat from the chaff.
• 35:52
  Like there's a lot of that you take, you
• 35:54
  know, garbage that
• 35:56
  you take in that you're
• 35:56
  like, that's not high signal, right?
• 35:58
  But you have, but you
• 35:59
  look at it to check it out.
• 36:01
  What are the pieces of advice that you've
• 36:04
  received or the
• 36:05
  frameworks or something, you
• 36:07
  know, whatever you want to talk about the
• 36:08
  couple of things this
• 36:09
  year that have really
• 36:11
  driven, had made you more money.
• 36:15
  Like I'll just say it simply that have
• 36:16
  driven your businesses forward.
• 36:18
  What are the things
• 36:19
  that you've listened to?
• 36:20
  I mean, you could also talk about the
• 36:21
  inverse and we could
• 36:22
  get to the segment of
• 36:24
  beefs and be like, that's some bullshit.
• 36:25
  Actually, that's some
• 36:26
  garbage coming out of that place.
• 36:27
  But I was, I was going to focus on the
• 36:30
  positives of the things that have really
• 36:31
  helped you.
• 36:32
  Yeah.
• 36:32
  I think the best thing that I've done is
• 36:35
  like spending less time on Twitter for
• 36:38
  X and spending more time
• 36:40
  understanding my customers.
• 36:42
  And that could be as a creative
• 36:44
  strategist, as a brand
• 36:45
  owner, as an agency owner, I
• 36:47
  don't really care understanding the
• 36:49
  customers, finding out
• 36:51
  more about them, listening
• 36:52
  to like calling them for example,
• 36:56
  emailing them, you know, the customer.
• 36:57
  Going to where they're hanging out and
• 36:59
  doing, I think research based and then
• 37:01
  building like everything from there.
• 37:03
  And then I think good communities, sorry,
• 37:07
  obviously the Foxwell group, I've been
• 37:10
  loving the group, but also different
• 37:13
  communities as well as like resources
• 37:14
  that people are
• 37:15
  actually like doing the work.
• 37:17
  I think extremely valuable.
• 37:19
  So I find that like trusting people,
• 37:22
  asking questions and for people who are
• 37:24
  seeing really good results and growing
• 37:26
  their brands to me is
• 37:28
  extremely beneficial.
• 37:30
  To me, that's probably
• 37:31
  been the most impactful.
• 37:33
  So yeah, I don't listen to most things.
• 37:35
  I think there's a lot of
• 37:35
  people talking a lot of things.
• 37:37
  I think there's clear value in those
• 37:40
  places that you can actually learn a lot
• 37:43
  from other people, but I don't try to
• 37:45
  listen to many people because it's a lot
• 37:47
  of stuff.
• 37:48
  There's a lot of stuff out there.
• 37:50
  Because like, for example, the ABO
• 37:51
  testing versus CBO
• 37:53
  testing, whatever it is, like
• 37:54
  you could do all this
• 37:55
  stuff, but does that even matter?
• 37:57
  It's actually not that important.
• 37:58
  It's understanding your customer deeply
• 38:00
  so you can do better work in terms of
• 38:02
  creating your offer in your phone.
• 38:04
  Yeah.
• 38:04
  I mean, I think you also, you think about
• 38:06
  the beginning of 2025, you know, was when
• 38:09
  we first all started to have to navigate
• 38:11
  the health and wellness, you know,
• 38:13
  categorization and everything that's come
• 38:15
  through that, which is like just fucking
• 38:17
  crazy.
• 38:19
  So talking about that and talking about
• 38:23
  the taking that as an
• 38:25
  example, okay, health
• 38:26
  and wellness categorization, and then we
• 38:28
  now have, you know, Andromeda has really
• 38:31
  ramped up this year,
• 38:32
  creative diversification.
• 38:34
  We have a whole bunch of
• 38:36
  stuff we can see that's coming.
• 38:37
  I feel like right with with meta and the
• 38:42
  way that that online marketing continues
• 38:44
  to shift, what are the things that you
• 38:47
  believe will really like you're preparing
• 38:50
  for?
• 38:52
  I assume some of it's our
• 38:53
  organizational changes, right?
• 38:55
  And improvements you're talking about,
• 38:57
  your creative process improvements.
• 38:58
  What are the other things that you're
• 38:59
  like, man, I'm really looking at that
• 39:01
  because that's going to, I know that
• 39:03
  that's going to be important.
• 39:04
  Yeah.
• 39:04
  So if we're talking about, we'll start,
• 39:07
  I'll start with like meta performance
• 39:08
  ad stuff.
• 39:09
  So for example, we're talking about gem.
• 39:12
  And I think I will be doing more like
• 39:15
  partnerships with
• 39:17
  influencers, specifically
• 39:19
  creators, you call them whatever, and
• 39:21
  like do like, like collaboration.
• 39:23
  So they're posting on organic.
• 39:25
  They're taking the brand.
• 39:26
  We're posting it on
• 39:27
  our, on our organic feed.
• 39:30
  And we're, because as we see meta kind of
• 39:33
  put everything together, we'll lump it
• 39:35
  together.
• 39:36
  Organic is going to be extremely valuable
• 39:38
  and important for the whole like customer
• 39:40
  journey.
• 39:41
  So the not just really great creative,
• 39:43
  but where are you, where are you
• 39:45
  living in the organic side?
• 39:46
  I've been so focused on
• 39:47
  paid, but it's kind of emerging.
• 39:49
  So that is like, what's your experience
• 39:52
  going to be across the board?
• 39:53
  And if you have a bad experience on the
• 39:55
  organic side, then they're
• 39:56
  probably going to ding you.
• 39:57
  So you have to really
• 39:58
  focus on better organic.
• 40:00
  So that would be one thing.
• 40:01
  The other thing that I'm focusing on is
• 40:04
  doing a deeper dive on LLM stuff.
• 40:08
  So like getting, getting found on chat
• 40:11
  DBT and other places like that.
• 40:13
  That's obviously a completely different
• 40:15
  conversation, but seeing how I can, you
• 40:18
  know, we've, again, people look at
• 40:20
  Reddit, for example, as a resource.
• 40:22
  So how can you show up more in Reddit?
• 40:26
  Don't do stupid stuff and don't do the
• 40:28
  stuff that's like gray hat or something
• 40:30
  or not, not so good that I hear people
• 40:33
  doing cause you're going to get dinged.
• 40:34
  How do you do it in a way
• 40:35
  that's, that's above board?
• 40:38
  But how do you show up in ways that,
• 40:39
  cause essentially chat DBT and other
• 40:42
  places will look at some different,
• 40:44
  stronger resources, including Reddit to
• 40:47
  to find your brand.
• 40:48
  So as we move towards that way of people,
• 40:51
  like what is the best
• 40:52
  bubble block for this?
• 40:53
  That is essentially what
• 40:54
  you have to try to rank for.
• 40:55
  So I'm moving away from focusing on SEO
• 40:57
  and focusing on LLM and then also
• 41:00
  focusing on organic type of creative.
• 41:03
  That can actually like help us scale
• 41:05
  going in the next year.
• 41:06
  We had a, so we've been doing LLMs like
• 41:09
  work for about a year and a half.
• 41:12
  And it, and the funny story is I have
• 41:15
  been working with this, these friends
• 41:17
  that do it and they're doing really well.
• 41:18
  Like, and they do, they traditionally
• 41:20
  have done SEO and have done it well,
• 41:21
  among other things, but they have a
• 41:23
  particular expertise in LLMs now.
• 41:25
  And they've been working on that with
• 41:26
  different e-com companies that I've
• 41:27
  connected them to and that kind of thing.
• 41:29
  And they're working with us as kind of,
• 41:30
  we're obviously a little bit different
• 41:31
  at Foxxle Digital cause we have all these
• 41:32
  different properties.
• 41:33
  But I said, how much of the work is, I
• 41:37
  said, what's been surprising about
• 41:38
  working with companies and helping them
• 41:40
  get their products into LLMs.
• 41:41
  And they were like, the funny thing is we
• 41:43
  in like 85% of cases, we aren't even
• 41:46
  doing LLM like SEO work because they
• 41:51
  don't even have their core SEO shit.
• 41:53
  Right.
• 41:54
  So I'm like, Oh yeah.
• 41:56
  I mean, cause it's like forever, you
• 41:58
  know, you, it's a rare thing.
• 42:00
  If you hear someone be like, yeah, you
• 42:02
  know, we really dialed in on SEO because
• 42:03
  it obviously it takes so much patience
• 42:05
  and it takes it's structural.
• 42:08
  I mean, it's not sexy.
• 42:10
  It's not screenshot sharing, but I just
• 42:12
  thought that was funny.
• 42:13
  You know, it's like you're, you're
• 42:14
  focusing on this whole other thing.
• 42:15
  It's like, well, you don't even have,
• 42:16
  you're trying to put a second
• 42:17
  story on, you don't even have a fricking
• 42:18
  foundation, you know?
• 42:20
  So that's, that's an interesting topic,
• 42:23
  but that's just an anecdote.
• 42:24
  Yeah.
• 42:24
  Yeah.
• 42:25
  There's, there's so many
• 42:26
  things you can do, right?
• 42:27
  So she had to focus on, but yeah.
• 42:30
  You want to, I got beefs ready.
• 42:32
  I'm unload it up.
• 42:33
  If you're a, if you're ready to, let's
• 42:34
  go, let's fire it up.
• 42:35
  I'm stoked for it.
• 42:37
  Uh, my, my round one.
• 42:39
  Yeah.
• 42:41
  Um, I, I actually think like people, I
• 42:44
  think there's a lot of like vagueness
• 42:47
  in what creative diversity means.
• 42:49
  I mean, like how people are saying it.
• 42:50
  I think one of the most, I mean, you,
• 42:52
  Daniel said a lot of like awesome things.
• 42:54
  Like, I think one of the things you said
• 42:55
  here, that's like people need to
• 42:56
  internalize a little bit more is like
• 42:58
  you, you have to have an idea about what
• 43:00
  is actually driving the thing that's
• 43:02
  working behind your ad and like you
• 43:03
  have to have a hypothesis and you're not
• 43:05
  just diversifying randomly to get
• 43:08
  different looking
• 43:08
  things in your ad account.
• 43:09
  It's like you're trying to, you're trying
• 43:11
  to find the format that matches
• 43:13
  the message that can be shown in a bunch
• 43:15
  of different ways that like your
• 43:16
  customer, your potential
• 43:17
  customers expect that to show up.
• 43:19
  And so I guess my, my, if I had to
• 43:21
  summarize my beef, it's just kind of
• 43:22
  like with the, like saying diversity with
• 43:25
  that, without defining it.
• 43:26
  It's like, what does that actually mean?
• 43:28
  And like, where do you start with it?
• 43:29
  And I think where you start is by taking
• 43:31
  the core thing that's working
• 43:33
  and expanding it out from there, not to
• 43:35
  extend this point too long, but like
• 43:36
  you just mentioned creators, like when we
• 43:38
  were talking about landing pages and
• 43:39
  offers, like that's another way to do it.
• 43:40
  It's like, you just take the core message
• 43:41
  and you go find creators that resonate
• 43:43
  with that message that's working.
• 43:45
  And then they're best
• 43:45
  suited to go talk about it.
• 43:46
  Like when you do your creator briefs, if
• 43:47
  you find the right creator, you don't
• 43:49
  have to explain to them the problem that
• 43:51
  you're solving, because it's like they
• 43:52
  intimately understand it and they make
• 43:53
  better briefs as a result of that.
• 43:55
  And then they probably make great oil
• 43:56
  listing partners and blah, blah, blah.
• 43:57
  You know, it's like you just, yeah.
• 44:00
  So I don't know.
• 44:00
  Anyways.
• 44:00
  I just want to agree with you so much on
• 44:03
  that, Brad, because the more that we,
• 44:05
  like there's this process that we had
• 44:06
  before and it was like, oh, like how are
• 44:08
  we finding creators, blah, blah, blah.
• 44:10
  And then like, if you're just trying to
• 44:12
  find a creator that like
• 44:13
  meets the brand aesthetic, for example, I
• 44:17
  am just throw that out the window.
• 44:20
  If you're going to pay somebody thousands
• 44:22
  of dollars to create content for you,
• 44:24
  maybe a thousand dollars, two thousand
• 44:25
  three, whatever, five thousand.
• 44:26
  Find somebody who your audience will
• 44:28
  trust based on your research and based
• 44:31
  on the actual like grouping,
• 44:33
  like what are they watching?
• 44:34
  Who are they listening to?
• 44:36
  Cause that is, those are influenced, but
• 44:38
  there's creators that
• 44:39
  create good content.
• 44:41
  Find those people based on your research,
• 44:43
  based on the angle, based on that.
• 44:44
  And then go pay them money.
• 44:46
  Cause then you're going to find that
• 44:47
  that's going to bring a much bigger ROI
• 44:50
  than going and yeah, like, oh my God.
• 44:53
  Sorry.
• 44:53
  Go ahead.
• 44:54
  Well, no, you can, first of all, you can
• 44:55
  definitely find great creators
• 44:56
  at hivehousegcc.com my other creator
• 44:59
  community that is also for brands.
• 45:01
  We can find direct access to creators.
• 45:04
  Um, but the on thing, generally on the
• 45:09
  point of what you were saying, Brad,
• 45:10
  and I think there's a fun, there's always
• 45:12
  been a fundamental issue in creative
• 45:15
  and Andromeda with the industry that we
• 45:19
  live in, which is people get clients
• 45:21
  by scaring the shit out of everyone and
• 45:24
  making them feel like they are
• 45:26
  behind and they're fucking up.
• 45:29
  And by the way, I'm the
• 45:29
  only one that has the solution.
• 45:31
  And so they talk about all of these.
• 45:34
  New wants to crazy,
• 45:35
  like backwards things.
• 45:38
  You end up poor brand owners end up being
• 45:40
  more confused and they come
• 45:41
  into the founder's community and say, I
• 45:43
  heard this from this person.
• 45:45
  I heard this from this person, and I
• 45:47
  don't know which direction to go.
• 45:49
  And the answer is, you know, one that,
• 45:51
  you know, it has many different
• 45:53
  solutions and it doesn't
• 45:55
  translate well with nuance.
• 45:56
  So I think creative and the way that you
• 45:58
  get creative, like, yeah, it's.
• 46:01
  That's a beef that I have around all of
• 46:03
  this and it's, and it's unfortunate.
• 46:05
  And so anyway, that's one of the missions
• 46:07
  of what we're trying to do here
• 46:08
  is like decode some of this crap.
• 46:10
  So you can actually go
• 46:11
  and apply it immediately.
• 46:13
  But anyway, that's,
• 46:13
  that's my beef for today.
• 46:14
  My beef is that people want the easy way.
• 46:19
  It's not going to be easy.
• 46:21
  And, and you're not going to like, you're
• 46:22
  not going to win by just like
• 46:24
  putting a bunch of prompts into jet TBT.
• 46:27
  Like you have to do work and it's hard
• 46:28
  and you can be smarter, but like stop
• 46:32
  trying to just get the easy way out.
• 46:33
  And there's going to be, you can hire
• 46:35
  people to try to do stuff.
• 46:37
  Cause a lot of the work you
• 46:37
  have to do is yourself, like the
• 46:38
  work that you have to do yourself.
• 46:40
  So I think the main takeaway from me is,
• 46:44
  and the beef I would say is like
• 46:45
  people trying to like find that comment
• 46:48
  on this and this post, and then you're
• 46:50
  going to get the whole guide of all the
• 46:51
  prompts and all the stuff that's
• 46:53
  going to make this great ad you're not,
• 46:55
  it's not going to work.
• 46:56
  So stop trying to do it.
• 46:57
  I love it.
• 46:58
  Yeah.
• 46:59
  Daniel, I appreciate, uh, we'll put your
• 47:01
  contact information in the show notes.
• 47:03
  I appreciate you joining us.
• 47:04
  Thank you for your
• 47:04
  insights that you've shared.
• 47:05
  Always wonderful to speak with you and
• 47:07
  thanks for listening everybody.
• 47:08
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• 47:09
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• 47:10
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• 47:12
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• 47:13
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• 47:15
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• 47:17
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• 47:20
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• 47:22
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• 47:24
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• 47:30
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• 47:32
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• 47:35
  Honestly, we've, we've done an episode
• 47:36
  with, with Jacob from Homestead.
• 47:38
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• 47:40
  probably one of the smartest
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• 47:42
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• 48:02
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• 48:05
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• 48:08
  So just killing it.
• 48:09
  Yeah, absolutely agree.
• 48:10
  You know, if you are looking at your
• 48:11
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• 48:12
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• 48:13
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• 48:17
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• 48:19
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• 48:22
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• 48:26
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• 48:28
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• 48:28
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• 48:30
  I actually had a member who sat down
• 48:32
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• 48:35
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• 48:37
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• 48:38
  to him for 10 minutes.
• 48:39
  And literally he, he's revolutionized my
• 48:42
  entire email department.
• 48:44
  So agencies are modeling themselves off
• 48:47
  of what Jacob is giving them for advice.
• 48:49
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