Latest / The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten / Don't Overinvest In (Or Guilt-Trip) Your Adult Kids

Transcript

Don't Overinvest In (Or Guilt-Trip) Your Adult Kids · The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten

0:05
Hi everybody, and welcome to the doctor psych mom show.
0:08
Today, we're going to be talking about why not to over invest in
0:11
your adult children. And what I mean by this, I have
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a post coming out about this. So I figured I'd do a podcast
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too because we are not all wired to read posts, that I'm learning
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that more and more that many people prefer podcast, which is
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just crazy to me, because I always prefer to read outlook
0:27
for the transcript for like everything.
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But, but anyway, we're not all the same.
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So lots of people love podcasts. So, I want to make sure if I
0:36
have a good post coming out that I do a podcast about a, to which
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you would think would be part of my, you know thing, but I don't
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have a thing. The I just do random randomly,
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whatever I am thinking about. I probably ought to do a podcast
0:50
for every post, but, hey, I got like thousands of posts.
0:53
So, who knows? Anyhow before we get to that,
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please do subscribe. I have one coming up on why your
0:59
wife fantasizes about other men and how to feel about that
1:03
except if you want to tell yourself, If that she doesn't
1:06
ever do that in which case, I guess just don't listen because
1:10
you can't handle the truth which is which is something a quote
1:14
from a movie anyway that I obviously don't know what movie
1:19
it's fro. So anyway, what do I mean by
1:21
over-investing in your kit so a lot of people in today's
1:24
child-centered marriages and families are, like, I mean, it's
1:29
like you don't want to do something for nothing, right?
1:31
If you're sacrificing your entire life for your children,
1:34
which so many Many parents. Nowadays are particularly ones
1:38
that are anxious or who don't have much going on in the
1:40
marriage itself of worth. You know, they're not close to
1:43
their partner, so why are they staying married for well?
1:46
For Christ's sake, it's pretty goddamn children, you know?
1:48
And so what then they have this fantasy that there's going to be
1:54
this payoff, right? So it's been a thankless job to
1:57
take care of particularly teenagers, who could be moody
2:00
and unpredictable not want to hang out.
2:03
And that's the last time that they're in the house.
2:04
So you're In real bad and then but then when they're adults
2:09
somehow, you're telling yourself that they are going to be around
2:12
and want you involved, and you guys are going to be real close
2:17
and you're going to be helping out with the grandkids all the
2:18
time and they're going to be living next door or wherever and
2:23
your city. I see a lot of people go down
2:26
this road and it is so dangerous.
2:29
It's so dangerous because kids nowadays, it is a totally
2:33
different culture than the one that you grew up at And you may
2:37
have fear, you may feel obligations towards your parents
2:41
and maybe even not even resent them for it.
2:43
You know, you may just assume that of course, you go to your
2:46
mom's house, every Sunday for dinner or for every major
2:49
holiday or that you have to see them every month and that you
2:52
can't really move away. And then that they're going to
2:55
help with the kids is just you know maybe you like it, maybe
2:59
you don't like it. But you don't know how to say,
3:00
no, whatever the case, maybe you grew up in a different culture
3:03
where there was a lot more obligation and your Rinse grew
3:06
up in a culture where they're filial obligation was the norm.
3:10
So, you know, they they totally did not ever think about saying
3:13
no to their parents or their in-laws.
3:16
And so a lot of mother-in-law's actually, the reason that
3:18
there's so much in it, so many in law problems, nowadays in
3:24
particular, isn't that people didn't used to also hate their
3:28
mother-in-law in previous generations, but they, they
3:32
didn't have an option. So like you could hate your
3:34
husband's mom. Mom, but you would still go
3:36
there every other Thanksgiving. Nowadays, people have a much.
3:40
There's a much different feel. It's like if somebody is acting
3:43
in a way, that's unhealthy. That makes me not feel good
3:45
then. I don't have to see that.
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And so there's a lot more estrangement.
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I've talked about this a lot and there's a lot more boundary
3:52
setting and this is just a social change.
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So there's no real value judgment.
4:00
It used to be everybody thought that there was more filial
4:02
obligation. And now, everybody, doesn't it
4:04
pretty much it? Upton more religious or
4:06
traditional cultures. So.
4:09
So then if a woman is raised having to constantly defer to
4:12
her own mother-in-law, then she's necessarily going to
4:15
assume that when she that there is some payoff and eventually
4:19
her own daughter in law, will have to defer to her.
4:21
In some ways, not that she has malicious intent, but she just
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assumes that's the way of the world, but it's not the way of
4:26
the world, right? It's not the way the world
4:28
anymore. So if you're assuming that
4:31
there's going to be some sort of big payoff to devoting Entire
4:35
life to your kids and that they are going to know that they're
4:40
not supposed to move away or that they're supposed to come
4:42
back for every Christmas or whatever you may be in for a
4:46
real rude awakening. And as you as you may already
4:51
realize, this is not the, it is, it is not the norm anymore for
4:57
people to defer to their parents.
5:00
So if you do not coincidentally, magically have a child that
5:04
wants to Be with you. Then you're going to possibly be
5:07
shit out of luck. Now, what some parents do
5:10
subconsciously is they enforce dependents, you know, and they
5:13
keep doing things for the kid forever and they are it
5:17
subconsciously. They're hoping that this will
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keep the kid close to that. So they'll say things like, oh,
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you'll need me to watch your kids or you'll need me to give
5:26
you money or you'll need my advice for, you know, buying a
5:30
house or whatever. Whatever.
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I see this a lot in the boomer generation where Most of the
5:36
people are not, not most. Many of the people, I see, we're
5:40
children of immigrants, you know?
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And the Immigrant parent, really had no idea how to navigate
5:46
America as well as the child who was born in there, you know.
5:50
And so, that's really kind of the first generation that I see
5:54
where from a very young age, the kids were the expert on the
5:59
United States, you know, and they were the expert on the
6:02
culture. And so they kind of learn That
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they were even better at that than their own parents.
6:08
So then they come into that with their kids on this like massive
6:11
expert level. Like I know everything about
6:14
business. I know everything about Finance,
6:15
I know everything about everything and so basically
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they're the expert to their own parents and then they're the
6:20
expert to their own kids. Too much expert expert.
6:23
Power can really go to your head and can make you think that this
6:27
is kind of your role. So when I have younger people
6:30
say that the boomer generation is quote, narcissistic, my
6:33
entire generation can't be narcissistic.
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But you could think about the social, you know, constructs
6:38
that led to one generation may be thinking that they know a
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lot, you know, more than a previous generation thought that
6:45
they knew because it's really hard to think.
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You know, a lot when you come to this country and you're shown to
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not know anything, you know, when your kid knows how to talk
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to, you know, officials of whatever sort better than you do
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you know, because you don't know the language.
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So anyway a lot of people particularly, you know, people
7:05
in their 50s 60s plus, I know 50s isn't Boomer still, but you
7:11
know what I mean, the older Generations.
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Now, when I talk to their kids, the young adult kids, they are
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really kind of, in this between a rock and a hard place.
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They frequently want to be very independent, but their parents
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continue to tell them that they can't be.
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Of course, these are the kids that end up in therapy, so it's
7:27
not everybody, but so, for example, they'll say, you know,
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like I got into law school in California but I feel like it
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would be so hard. To be away from my dad.
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He's the one that you know, like goes with me you know and checks
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out on the lease and whatever apartment I Saw II want and he
7:43
helped me figure out if I should sign the lease and he co-signed
7:46
the lease and it's like, well, you're not going to go to
7:49
California, something that you want to do.
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Because you're scared that like, he's not going to be able to
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check out your apartment. It's like it's very sad because
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the kids are really, they want to be independent, but they've
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been inculcated in this idea that they can't be.
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Well, it's some point, they wake up.
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Right? And they may be dating somebody
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or they may be going to therapy and at some point they say, hey
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I want to be as independent as I can be some children.
8:13
Some people, some children like to stay, you know, live across
8:16
from the parents for the rest of their life.
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But many don't, you know, it's a much more mobile Global World
8:22
and at some point, like, for example, if that person wants to
8:26
go to law school in California, which I obviously just made up
8:29
starts to date a girl, who's like?
8:31
Yeah, you should. That would be so much fun for us
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to do well, then guess who's moving.
8:35
To California, right? And if his parents were pretty
8:38
much only staying together for him and or just very much were
8:44
tied to the idea that they would be an integral and essential
8:47
part of his life forever. Including you know, watching his
8:50
kids every you know, the week when he worked or whatever the
8:54
case or for date night. He's in California now, you
8:57
know. And so they're at real risk of
9:00
you of if they previously had this conception of the way that
9:04
things would go. Which is now being challenged or
9:07
outright denied by the kid and his choices.
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They are at risk of guilt tripping him and really ruining
9:13
the relationship because they're still so hurt.
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And so personally attacked by his choices.
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So this doesn't have to be a geographic move, it could be a
9:23
belief system move as I discussed in a previous podcast
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about what to do. When your kid has different
9:29
beliefs than you. This one, you're a real risk of
9:32
estrangement because if your child decides to believe
9:34
something different, But politically, or in a religious
9:38
way than you do the parents. Remember when they used to bring
9:42
things up like this to their parents, their parents had,
9:44
don't talk to me about that shit and they just stayed in line.
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And they were like, okay, well, I guess I'll be quiet, you know,
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because that was more of the culture.
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Today's kids feel like, if you don't know, my authentic self,
9:54
then this relationship isn't worth happening.
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That's been a seismic cultural shift.
9:58
And so, those parents are at risk of being estranged, if they
10:02
can't get with the program and the program on abroad, A
10:05
philosophical way summary of that should be.
10:09
This kid is an adult. They can believe whatever they
10:11
want and I should be happy to be in a relationship with them of
10:14
any sort. It never used to be like this.
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I can't overstate it enough. You know that children adult
10:21
children didn't have a choice of whether they were going to be
10:25
close to their parents. That was not a thing that you
10:27
chose or not. If they were alive and they had
10:30
not been terribly, abusive or something, you were going to
10:32
remain close to them or at least act like you were.
10:35
And it's not like that anymore, it's very similar to.
10:39
It was interesting. I have like a lot of listservs
10:41
that I'm part of, as a therapist and somebody was saying
10:44
something like, I'm trying to hire a therapist in a group
10:47
practice, you know, something I do myself a group, practice
10:50
owner, and the, and specific therapist will not see more than
10:55
x number of clients. It is not profitable for me to
10:59
hire somebody that does not see more than x clients.
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Like, what should I do and Just ten years ago or possibly even
11:08
less. People would have said, wow,
11:09
what the hell, why is that person being lazy?
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You know, and nowadays, like uniformly, all of the comments
11:16
were let this person set their own boundaries at what work they
11:20
can do, and you will have to just hire more people or figure
11:24
out other ways to, you know, cut costs.
11:26
So that this person can never go outside their comfort zone, and
11:30
always see the exact number of clients that they want to see a
11:33
no more than that. That is obviously a tremendous
11:38
radical shift in how work is conceived of, you know,
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similarly, with telecommuting with flexible hours.
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Like this just didn't, it didn't used to happen that people could
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just kind of like structure their lives how they want.
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And that is really over all my my summary.
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And if you still, if you believe that that is that shift has been
11:58
bad in some way. Then you need to really
12:02
interrogate that deeply because having Having a value judgment
12:07
about the way that the entire world is moving toward more
12:11
flexibility, right? And more boundary setting.
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If you feel that that is quote bad, then you are really at risk
12:18
of alienating yourself from your children and everybody who ends
12:21
up alienated from and or estranged from, or low contact
12:25
with or whatever their children wishes that they could go back
12:29
in a time machine and be more flexible that is uniformly.
12:32
True with all the people that I see Ew, of parents who are
12:36
strange from kids, they all wish.
12:39
And of course, again, sample sizes, people who come into
12:41
therapy to discuss it but of who are open-minded enough about
12:45
that. But they all wish they had been
12:46
more open minded sooner. So if you're in a situation
12:49
where over-investing in a certain conception of how your
12:52
life is going to look, vis-à-vis, your adult child and
12:55
their relationship with you. It is advisable to just
12:59
completely get rid of this and burn it you know your mental
13:04
model I love the way that your relationship with your adult
13:07
child is going to look because this is not the generation where
13:11
you want to fuck around with guilt trips because the way that
13:14
this goes is that you raise these kids to think that that
13:19
they okay. So there's two things to there's
13:21
a social shift of like more boundaries more, you know, you
13:27
know more agency and how you feel that you can structure your
13:30
own life and then ironically most parents have Have on a
13:35
pedestal this idea of like every time their child has a whim or a
13:39
desire, they try to somehow make it happen and manifest it.
13:44
So this is the age. So the same child that at age,
13:47
25 will say to you. Well, you know, I don't want to
13:51
see you anymore because you have not validated.
13:55
My politics is the child who you were telling from the age that
14:00
they can remember learning to speak.
14:02
You were telling them that their thoughts were super important.
14:05
An invalid, you were validating them, validating them,
14:08
validating them. You can't stop that train, you
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know, that's considered a grievous, empathic rupture, you
14:14
know? So if from the minute that they
14:15
could talk, you were saying be your own person.
14:18
Don't defer to peer pressure, have your own thoughts and then
14:22
they do and you don't like them and it's not going to go well,
14:25
and again, it's so it's very dangerous to go down a path of
14:32
whether this is right or wrong. This Is a social shift and I
14:37
don't see it going back, really? I mean, of course, every every
14:39
pendulum swings back with social trends, but overall, things are
14:43
going things are always heading in a case of like, more and more
14:47
individual agency. And so, this is where we're at
14:51
now. So, do not think that there are
14:53
ways that you can Guilt Trip adult children, and it may not
14:56
bite you in the ass. It will bite you in the ass.
14:59
So or at least it's best for you to be scared that it will
15:02
because in that can prevent you from having these Pathak
15:05
ruptures with adult children. So then some people say well is
15:08
my job to only say you know great sure.
15:13
Move away from me, I don't care. Yeah, I won't miss you.
15:16
Of course not. Of course not you would say Oh
15:20
California, what an adventure, you know, that sounds good for
15:24
you, you know? I mean, that sounds fun for you.
15:26
I I'm hoping that that we can visit tell me as soon as you'd
15:31
like us to visit. That's the sort of way that you
15:34
can say. Say yes, I will miss you.
15:36
I certainly want to see you, but I'm not going to hold you back
15:39
from moving or with the politics thing.
15:42
I mean, these are things people. I mean Beyond regret being
15:46
closed-minded about or the religion thing or like, the kid
15:51
had the kid parents, their own kids, don't get involved in that
15:54
really don't and start thinking about these things.
15:56
Even if you have teenagers, you know, because if a teenager,
16:01
like some thing that you don't like some activity as long as
16:04
it's not Darrell Dress. Why like don't be a dick, you
16:08
know? Like they like some certain
16:09
music don't be a dick like just be nice and be open-minded in a
16:13
way that you wish that your own parents had been really even
16:16
though you never would have alienated yourself from your
16:19
parents because that was not the social milieu in which you found
16:22
yourself. You still wish that they would
16:24
have been more open minded and affirming.
16:26
I'm sure who doesn't wish that of their parents.
16:29
So you can certainly be honest, you can say to your kids.
16:33
Oh it would be bring me joy. Way to watch your children, one
16:36
day if you have children. Certainly, I mean, I'm not
16:39
saying to walk on eggshells around your kids.
16:41
What I'm saying is not to say guilt-tripping things and to be
16:44
very cautious about the guilt trips.
16:46
So in terms of guilt tripping or kids, you should be walking on
16:49
eggshells, because that does not go over the way that it used to.
16:52
And so saying, something like my whole, meaning in life is going
16:55
to watch, is going to be being involved with you.
16:58
And with your children, then they, they come into therapy and
17:01
they say, I'm so upset, because now I feel this pressure to
17:05
Children and my parents should not be giving me any pressure,
17:07
it's my life, you know, and that that doesn't that, that's that
17:11
doesn't go well overall for the relationship between the adult
17:15
child and the parent. So you need to kind of get your
17:19
head screwed on straight about this early so that you do not
17:23
have any risk of alienated. You're alienating your children
17:26
later because it's a really devastating thing for people
17:29
when they're kids, just stop texting back, stop calling go
17:33
low contact, whatever. Ever.
17:36
So anyway, so think about this stuff and if you are drawn to
17:39
guilt-tripping your kids frequently, you got to go to
17:41
therapy or just introspect about.
17:44
Why most likely this was done to you most likely you fucking
17:47
hated it, but you couldn't really ever do anything about
17:50
it. So you know, just how your
17:52
parents are their guilt tripping.
17:54
They are people that you don't really like to be around, but
17:56
you have to, if you make yourself into a guilt trip or
17:59
your kid is going to say, they don't really like to be around
18:02
you and they don't have to be so.
18:05
So that's the difference and so you if you are drawn to a lot of
18:10
guilt trips, then you can also think about what else you have
18:13
going on in your life because your life should not be
18:16
predicated on whether you could be involved with your adult
18:19
children. And because they may move
18:22
internationally, they may decide not to have children, they may
18:26
go to an ashram and live a different kind of life.
18:29
Completely, they may decide to be, I don't know travel to the
18:34
space station. Action.
18:35
That they're going to create on a different planet?
18:37
Who knows what the hell they're going to do but they have to be
18:40
able to do it. That is how you raise them after
18:42
all to pursue their dreams. And again, this is not the
18:46
social environment in which you could say your dreams are only
18:49
valid so long as they involve me watching your children or being
18:53
involved in your life or still telling you whether or not
18:55
you're making sound financial decisions or what have you.
18:58
And so focus on filling your own life up with you know, Delaying
19:05
and meaningful life activities and Pursuits and goals and then
19:11
it will not seem so important to you.
19:14
What your children do, you can get to a place where you see
19:17
adult children as peers and even, and this is children
19:22
adult. Children love this.
19:23
I mean, think about how you would love it so much.
19:25
If you ask them for advice on certain things that they're good
19:27
at, I mean, that is really the counter of, you know, positing
19:32
yourself as the expert to, to which all Deference is needed.
19:36
What if you ask them? What they think about things
19:38
kids, kids love that certainly and adult kids love that, and
19:42
I'll people really love that. So if you say good point, good
19:45
idea. What do you think I should do?
19:46
About X? You're really switching the
19:48
frame from where you are. The one that is the elder on
19:52
high to that you're more equal and this whole lateral, we are
19:56
all equal type of stuff is much more appealing to young adult
20:00
children and to people, you know, in general which is why a
20:03
lot of businesses are being Or more like that.
20:06
You can't say boss anymore. Forget what the hell you're
20:08
supposed to say. But, you know, people don't say
20:12
where they not say subordinate, you don't say, subordinate, you
20:15
say, like reports or something, you know, everything is changing
20:18
in this Dimension. So if you're sociologically
20:21
inclined, you can read up on it and all sorts of areas, but our
20:25
our focus is do not make your kids think that if they don't do
20:29
what you want as an adult, then you are going to be mad because
20:33
they may frequently choose. To just not be involved with you
20:36
in general to perceive that as emotional blackmail and to cut
20:39
contact. So if you don't want that, you
20:42
know, which nobody does then think deeply before you try to
20:46
mobilize any sort of guilt or shame, even in ways that you
20:49
feel like the means of the end would, would, would be worth the
20:54
means or whatever and just 20 minutes Mark.
20:57
I get a little bit groggy of in the, I can't talk for this long,
21:01
but you know what I mean, the ends justify the means, right?
21:04
So, sometimes Times people think the ends justify the means if I
21:07
could Guilt Trip my adult child into giving me more time with
21:10
the grandchild. I know the grandchild is going
21:11
to benefit from time with me that is a narcissistic delusion
21:16
and what's probably going to end up happening is you're not going
21:18
to end up with time with anybody and regretting it deeply.
21:21
So so think about it. So this was a good PSA for
21:24
anybody who has child of any age that this is the way that the
21:27
wind is blowing. So if you thought that there is
21:30
any way in which you're going to be able to keep your kid close
21:33
to you with the same sort of Emotional guilt-tripping
21:37
blackmailing tactics that your own parents use, you're going to
21:40
be shit out of luck, and that's not a bad thing because you
21:43
didn't like that relationship. If it was full of guilt tripping
21:45
even though you did not see any way out of it.
21:48
Alright. Hopefully everybody got
21:50
something from this or at least one person somewhere did and
21:52
I'll talk to you all soon.