Latest / Friendship IRL: Real Talk About Friendship, Community, and What It Actually Takes / Why We Need to Stop Using the Word “Toxic” in Regards to Friendship

Transcript

Why We Need to Stop Using the Word “Toxic” in Regards to Friendship · Friendship IRL: Real Talk About Friendship, Community, and What It Actually Takes

• 0:02
  Podcast Intro/Outro: All right, gang. Here's to nights that turn into mornings and friends that turn into family. Cheers. Hello, hello, and welcome to the Friendship IRL podcast. I'm your host, Alex Alexander. Each week we talk about what is working(and what is not) in our friendships, community and connections. Have you ever wished you could sit down and have a conversation about what is really going on in your friendships? Well, you found your people. Join us as we dive into real life stories and explore new ways to approach these connections. Together, we're reimagining the rules of friendship
• 0:58
  Alex Alexander: Toxic. Energy vampire. Protecting my peace.
• 1:01
  Alex Alexander: Low vibrational. Friendship ick.
• 1:04
  Alex Alexander: Fake friend. I outgrew them. Bad vibes. Frenemy. Bare minimum friend. Just cut them out. We have an entire vocabulary for this kind of world in which our friendships aren't working, an entire language. Take your pick.
• 1:22
  Alex Alexander: And when you hear me say that, do you actually have any idea what happened in that friendship? Because that's what I think is wild is we have an entire language that's, quite frankly, not very useful. Some of it gave people words for things that they didn't know how to name before to maybe stand up for themselves. But what I want to talk about today is what this vocabulary is actually doing to us, because I hate to say it, but I think we've gotten lazy, and I think that that laziness is costing us something very real. This is not an episode about tolerating bad behavior. I want to be clear about that up front. This is an episode about what happens when we reach for a label instead of doing the harder, more honest work of figuring out what we actually need. The term toxic starting is actually more of a clinical term. Therapists used it carefully in specific contexts to describe specific dynamics or specific diagnoses like toxic stress response, and then as so many things do, the word 'toxic' hit the internet — TikTok, Reddit, Instagram, therapy accounts, and the more and more and more that it got used, it got flattened because, like so many colloquial terms that are characterizing psychological phenomena, toxic is pretty unspecific. What does toxic mean to you and is it different from what it means to me? Probably toxic people are bullies or victims overly involved or overly removed, too negative or too positive, and well, this blanket label is very enticing because it encompasses a lot of problems, and you actually don't really have to be that specific.
• 3:33
  Alex Alexander: It's not very helpful. And then an entire subset of this vocabulary appeared after that right, gaslighting, trauma dumping, narcissist, weaponized incompetence. These are all very real clinical concepts that get borrowed, stretched and turned into everyday shorthand, especially if you are scrolling through any social media. I mean, if you take the phrase protect your peace that basically became an entire cultural movement and look, I get it. I understand why it resonated. People needed permission to prioritize themselves, to honestly say, I'm past capacity. The world is exhausting. I'm not here to say it's not but I do think that we need to take a moment to reflect on how far we have taken this word and what it is costing us when you call someone a toxic person. This is my number one pet peeve, and I've had so many podcast pitches around how to tell toxic people I don't like it. Okay, I'm putting my stake in the ground.
• 4:49
  Alex Alexander: My flag is here on the side of I don't like this term because.
• 4:54
  Alex Alexander: When you call someone a toxic person, not someone who did a hurtful thing, but a toxic person, you are handing them a label, and labels stick as much as we like to be like, Oh, it's just a word. Let's all think of some label that we received, probably when we were younger, that as adults, we are still very much trying to fight against I'll share mine. You probably have one, and maybe it's mine, but it's probably different. I've talked about on this show before, the fact that as a kid, I always heard that I was too much, and if I'm being very honest with you, I am still, to this day, trying to unravel all the places that I try and make myself less because I'm convinced that I am too much. I am still untangling what that label did to how I see myself, how I show up, and what I feel like I'm allowed to take up space for. That's what labels do. They don't just describe a moment, they become this kind of built in identity that we walk through the world with. And once someone gives you that identity, it can feel really impossible to shed it. So when you call someone a toxic person, even someone who genuinely hurt us.
• 6:17
  Alex Alexander: We are deciding on their behalf that they are not capable of change. That's what I believe, that who they are right now is who they will always be and Well, I think there are definitely people that we all need to cut out of our lives. I don't want to believe that people are not capable of change now. I am not saying that maybe they are capable of repair of your friendship, or that you should ever bring them back into your life, but I do hope, even the people who have hurt me the most, I hope that they are capable of change, and they don't do this to someone else, and maybe they Don't keep repeating their same patterns for their own sake, so that they can build healthy friendships that don't have to cut them off.
• 7:10
  Alex Alexander: I really do think that almost everyone, almost everyone is capable of growth. Will they?
• 7:17
  Alex Alexander: Maybe not. Not everyone does the work. Not everyone wants to, but I am saying that I hope they do, maybe for the sake of another relationship, that their story isn't over, because my chapter with them is. And I think that distinction matters, because when we say that like this is a toxic person, that is very different than saying this is a toxic behavior. A toxic behavior is specific, nameable, something that happens and keeps happening. A toxic person is a verdict, a closed case, a label that follows them forever and ever. You can walk away from someone's behavior, but labeling them as a toxic person is a fundamentally different thing, in my opinion, and I think it says something about how we all see people. Are they fixed, unchangeable beyond growth, or do we have hope that maybe somewhere out there, even though it's not with us, they will find relationships that fulfill them.
• 8:22
  Alex Alexander: I'm definitely of the second belief. The other thing is that when we are using the word toxic, we're doing something to ourselves.
• 8:33
  Podcast Intro/Outro: So you have to start with the honest question, why is it easier to say, well, they're just toxic. I can't have them in my life anymore than it is to name the actual behavior. Because here's what naming the actual behavior requires. You have to know what you need. You have to believe that you are allowed to need it, and then you have to say it out loud, maybe to yourself first in the mirror, and maybe not always, but maybe to them. And when you just say, well, that's toxic. It is. You going into your gut, and being like this is not acceptable to me. I will not put up with it, but you're going straight to the verdict. You are skipping all the actual work.
• 9:22
  Podcast Intro/Outro: There's no deliberation, no self reflection, just verdict the end. And I get why we do it. I get why that's appealing, especially in that moment where you are actually in the middle of the hurt, when you're exhausted, when your life feels overwhelming, the time it takes to actually name something and give it words just feels impossible. And instead just saying, well, that's toxic, moving on, closing the door, it feels like a relief, because you have done something. You are no longer allowing the behavior, but you haven't. I actually reflected on what that is. And so because of that, you are skipping a couple things. What exactly is the behavior that you won't accept? Do you know? What does that tell you about what you need in future friendships?
• 10:17
  Podcast Intro/Outro: And if this is like a deal breaker, if this is a you're toxic. The end of our friendship, I'm cutting you off.
• 10:23
  Podcast Intro/Outro: I'm ghosting. Whatever you're doing here, not that I'm promoting ghosting, but you might make that choice. If this is a deal breaker, are you actually admitting that to yourself, that, like you have a boundary and a standard in your friendship and you will not accept less. Or is it easier to depersonalize it and say, well, they they're just toxic. I'll give you an example. A lot of people will label a friend as toxic if they never reach out or they never initiate in a friendship. And I want to be careful here, because, yes, one sidedness is very real. It is exhausting. It matters. You are allowed to say you do not accept it. But have you ever said to them or to yourself, I need more of an equal split in who initiates. I deserve that.
• 11:21
  Podcast Intro/Outro: That's something I need in a friendship. Have you named it and claimed it? Because for me, personally, and this is where the nuance lives. I have friendships where I am the sole initiator, and quite frankly, I have made peace with that, not because I'm a pushover, not because I don't respect myself, but because I have thought it through, I know why I am okay in certain relationships, in certain seasons of life, with circumstances that I and my friend know I have made the conscious choice that I am okay, taking on that responsibility, and that is very different from just tolerating something silently that actually is really upsetting me and then eventually kind of cracking right, being really upset and just be like, well, you're toxic because You never initiate sometimes they're toxic, is actually a way of avoiding an even harder sentence, and that sentence is, I deserve to be treated better than this, and I've never said that out loud before. That takes guts. That requires you to put your own worth out there, to claim it, to admit that you have needs, to believe that those needs are legitimate, and for a lot of people, and I say this with as much compassion, because I have been this person before.
• 12:52
  Podcast Intro/Outro: That's the scariest part of all of this. It is genuinely easier to make someone else the villain than to say I matter enough to ask for what I need. Now there's another layer to this.
• 14:15
  Podcast Intro/Outro: A red flag to you is not automatically a red flag to me, and that's not me being wishy washy. That's just true and toxic. Erases the nuance completely. It implies universality, right? It implies that anyone reasonable would agree. But friendship needs are personal. They're shaped by your history, your attachment style, your current season of life. So if you and I were to meet and you were to tell me that a past friend of yours is toxic, well I'd be like, okay, but maybe the reason that you think they're toxic is fine with me and vice versa. If I told you about a friend that I have cut off, I told you they're toxic, you might find out that the exact reason I cut them off is something that doesn't bother you at all, which means that you have to know your red flags toxic doesn't help you figure that out. It actually gets in the way of you making future friends. So if I've convinced you at any point in this episode to stop using the phrase toxic friends and you're like, Alex, that's great. But what do I do instead? I do have three questions for you before you reach for the word toxic or any of those other words or phrases that I started the episode with, right? They're an energy vampire. They're friendship.
• 15:43
  Podcast Intro/Outro: Ick, I want you to sit with these three questions. What specifically happened or keeps happening. You can't be like, Oh, they make me feel bad, or the vibe is always off. What do they do? What do they say? What do they not do that you expect them to do? Name the behavior.
• 16:06
  Podcast Intro/Outro: Get Rid. Specific, they walk in every room and they say hi to everyone but me. They ask everyone a question, but they ignore me. They always talk about themselves, and they never ask me a question, because when you are specific, that is where the information is, and that is something you can actually work with. Which brings me to my second question, Have I communicated what I need, or am I expecting them to read my mind? I know this is an uncomfortable question, I know, but it's an important one, because so much of what gets labeled toxic is actually just an unspoken expectation that nobody ever said out loud, and you might be like, Well, Alex, there are some universal expectations, like, my friend shouldn't always be talking about themselves, maybe, right?
• 16:58
  Podcast Intro/Outro: This is where the nuance comes in, and this is what I always struggle with here on this podcast, is you could message me that, and then it's like, okay, well, is this a new friend, and maybe they're really going through the hardest time of their life, and you just happened to meet them at your ladies golf league in the hardest moment of their life, they want to talk to somebody about it. You are an impartial person, and so the first three times you got together, they've kind of gotten carried away, and they've talked about themselves the whole time, and they haven't really asked too many questions.
• 17:32
  Podcast Intro/Outro: Now that I know that full story, I'm like, well, that's not a toxic behavior. They're just having a hard time. So you either need to decide whether you're willing to stick it out or not, because you are saying, Well, Alex, it's just normal when you meet a new person that you would expect it to be 5050 conversation. And I would tell you that I don't expect that if I found out that somebody met me and two weeks prior, they had asked for a divorce, or they had lost their spouse, or they had lost their parent, I'm telling you that I personally, upon finding out that fact, would not expect that person really, to ask me any questions, but that might be unacceptable to you. So do you see? It is not universal, and these people cannot meet their needs if they don't know you have them. They might be so caught up in their own world, if that's their situation, you might need to tell them, like, hey, I really want to get to know you. But part of that is like me telling you about me.
• 18:39
  Podcast Intro/Outro: Question three, is this a deal breaker for me? And have I been honest with myself about that?
• 18:47
  Podcast Intro/Outro: This is that question where you bring up your worth, where the real work is? Because sometimes the answer is yes, this is a deal breaker, and you are allowed to walk away if you meet someone, and it's really important to you to always feel like you get to share for an equal amount of time. And that's not what's happening. You have to claim that that you deserve equal amounts of time,
• 19:11
  Alex Alexander: and maybe you're in a situation where you're like, you know what? I actually haven't decided yet. Maybe I'm okay testing it out in this friendship and seeing how I feel a couple more hangouts down the line, if it equals out or if it doesn't equal out. And in previous friendships, I've just been using well, they're toxic because I always talk about themselves to avoid making the decision that I am worth half the conversation. If after those three questions, you decide to walk away from the friendship Great. Walk away with clarity.
• 19:47
  Alex Alexander: Walk away knowing what you need, what you will accept and what you're looking for next time.
• 19:53
  Alex Alexander: That's useful, actually, that travels with you, that helps you make future friends. When you meet someone and you're on the first hangout and they talked about themselves the entire time, don't hang out with them again, because, you know that's a behavior you won't accept. But what isn't useful is when you didn't do any of that reflection, and you go back to hang out with a new person who is having a hard time and keeps talking about themselves, and you're on hangout five, and you're just frustrated because you're like, Why do I keep making all these toxic friends?
• 20:32
  Alex Alexander: Well, because the label, the verdict, it closed the door, but it didn't tell you why you shut it, and therefore you just keep walking back through the same door and wasting your time. Why am I bringing you this episode today? If we zoom back out on all the work that I do, I've talked about this before. We are living in a loneliness epidemic.
• 20:55
  Alex Alexander: That's not me just making things up. It is documented. It is real, and I don't think it's getting much better. Now simultaneously, we are finding more and more reasons to cut people out of our lives with less and less friction. Hmm, if you go and meet somebody and they tell you they were just a toxic person, and I had to cut them out, most people won't ask you any more questions than that. It is not hard to walk away anymore. We don't have the community ties where we have interconnected friendships and people are asking questions and trying to push you to do repair you can just walk away. And I'm not saying that the loneliness epidemic and us being able to easily walk away are entirely 100% like cause and effect. It's definitely more complicated than that. But what I'm am saying is that in a world where there's lots and lots and lots of talk about decreasing the loneliness epidemic. Part of that is learning the skills to be better friends, better community members, better neighbors. And part of that is communicating our own needs to ourselves, number one, but also to other people. So no matter what, even if this episode does not save a friendship that you are struggling right now, if you found me because you typed in toxic friends, and now here you are, even just doing the reflection portion makes you more capable of making the connections you want. You know, I've said this before on the podcast, doing the work to become a better friend, to better your communication style, to get better at repair and conflict benefits you. But it is work. If you don't want to do that, you want to keep just living a life where you say like they're toxic, and you walk away, then that is also work, right? Because you're going to want new friends, so you're going to go out there and you're going to keep trying, and it's a lot of work to make a new friend, but it's also a lot of work to learn the skills to be a better friend. And then I suppose the third option, that's not really an option, is that you just go through life alone, which is also incredibly hard. I would argue, the most hard of the three options, all three of them are work. So which one are you going to choose? And with that, I'll see you next week.
• 23:29
  Podcast Intro/Outro: Thank you for listening to this episode of Friendship IRL. I am so honored to have these conversations with you. But don't let the chat die here. Send me a voice message. I created a special website just to chat with you. You can find it at
• 23:46
  [alexalex.chat](http: //alexalex.chat).
• 23:48
  [alexalex.chat](http: You can also find me on Instagram. My handle,@itsalexalexander. Or go ahead and leave a review wherever you prefer to listen to podcasts.
• 24:00
  [alexalex.chat](http: Now if you want to take this conversation a step further, send this episode to a friend.
• 24:06
  [alexalex.chat](http: Tell them you found it interesting. And use what we just talked about as a conversation starter the next time you and your friend hang out. No need for a teary goodbye. I'll be back with a new episode next week.