Latest / Expertly Said / Micki Pflug Mounce on Making Corporate Communications Relatable
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- Kristen Sweeney: My guest today is Micki Pflug Mounce Communications Lead, U.S. Plasma Services Business at Takeda. Micki started her career as a travel writer. When she developed a fear of flying, a fear she has since overcome, she transitioned to textbooking. If you were in elementary and middle school in the aughts, you'd know her work, as she's ghostwritten over 100 textbooks from kindergarten through high school. She also ran a company called Biographies Incorporated, writing clients, memoirs and personal stories and those of their loved ones to help people heal and get their unique voice into the world. For the past 15 years, Micki has been in the health, tech, and pharmaceutical industries, working for Abbott Labs, ABV, and now Takeda Pharmaceuticals. In her current role, she develops and executes external and internal communications plans within Takeda's Plasma Derived Therapies Division. She's also the Vice President of the Board of Trustees for the Fremont District Public Library in Northern Illinois. Nikki, welcome to the show. Micki: Thank you, Kristen, for having me. Glad to be here. Kristen Sweeney: I'm very much looking forward to this conversation. I'd like to start with a little bit more of your origin story. We've heard some some kind of interesting highlights here. So I'd love to hear how you became a travel writer, but even earlier than that, where your interest in communications first began. Micki: Sure. I have a degree in journalism and then right out of school I began working as a local a lo a local a journalist for local newspapers. And there was one summer when I had to cover all of the Fourth of July parades. And they were at different times, different days. And by it must have been like six or seven parades I had to cover. So by the end, they were writing themselves. You know, you get the quote from the mayor, a quote from a family member, and you always close with the weather. So I was a freelancer, and you're you get paid based on where your story was placed. And since I was just doing neighborhood stories about parades, my stories were always at the back. And my last parade that I covered. There was a little blurb on the front page at the bottom. And it led it said go, you know, to watch the r or to read the rest of the story, you know, go to page forty five or something. It's a very Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yeah. Micki: black. But I thought, I made it. So I got, you know, the big bucks back then just because Kristen Sweeney: Uh-huh. Micki: that little blurb was on the front. And you know, my stories were always neighbor neighborhoodies, so you know, my i rarely did they get the front page, but I remember being a especially excited about that. Yeah. So and then, you know, I kind of got tired of the newspaper news part of it. So somehow I worked my way to travel writing. And that was That was really exciting. I covered a lot of I covered a lot of Florida and a lot out east. I'm located in Illinois. And I was writing, I got in a bit of a niche where I was writing about tourism spots but the other like the other Florida. So if you wanted to go to Orlando but not Disney World. you know, I would find these spots or they would find them and say, Can you please, you know, write about this and promote it. So but eventually developed a fear of flying, which I'd heard that that that is common or not uncommon among travel writers that eventually Kristen Sweeney: Interesting. Wow. Okay. Micki: you do. And I was offered to go on this great trip to I believe it was Maine to tour haunted Houses and haunted graveyards, and I just thought, I can't do it, I can't get on a plane. So then I had to pivot a little bit and I worked my way into textbooks. And I wrote about a like you mentioned, I wrote about a hundred textbooks of all ages, from kindergarten, even some college. And I learned a little fun fact that You know, in college when you're looking at a book and it's the fourth edition or the seventh edition and it's the same topics essentially. Well, I learned that the professor who wrote that or the author, they aren't really writing it. It's it's a ghostwriter like myself. Kristen Sweeney: It's you. Micki: It's me. And they send you an outline and they they you know, for for some Other topics like history, you know, there's updates and there's changes and and for talking about maybe media, digital media, there's updates. But if you're just writing about philosophy, there isn't a whole lot that changes from Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Micki: year to year. So I would get an outline from the professor. We would just shift text around. He would give me he or she would give me a little bit of the new stuff and then I would I would plug that in and and then there's your seventh edition of philosophy or mass communication. So yeah. And I also wrote I wrote the younger grades too. And you know, it is very hard for me to write those younger grades. You would think it would be easy. But like writing Kristen Sweeney: Interesting. Micki: for first and second graders, you know, it's 18 point font. So there's not a lot of space for a lot of words. You know, it's this this Kristen Sweeney: Mm-hmm. Micki: large text Helvetica. And you have to, you know, for a seven year old in social studies, they want to give an overview of what's government. Well, okay, that's tough to do when you have eighteen point font and you have to make it interesting, but they they aren't, you know, well developed readers yet. So I just found that so tricky. Kristen Sweeney: I feel like this is so cool because there's so much crossover. I mean, we're not necessarily always writing for second graders, but when we think about, you know, what we're gonna talk about a little bit later and different kinds of stakeholders. I really relate to this. So my oldest, we were just talking offline, is seven right now. And I'd say most of the time I pretty much talk to her like she's an adult, but there are certain concepts where I just hand it off to her dad because I'm like, I could explain photo it's not that I don't know what photosynthesis is, but I to calibrate it down feels so it like makes my head explode. And I'm like, your dad will be happy to tell you why the earth revolves around the sun. Like Micki: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: things that we take for granted. And I can imagine that having to kind of like strip back all those assumptions and things that you know as an adult that you've already learned. Micki: Mm. Yes. It's Kristen Sweeney: Could be really tricky. Micki: tricky because you wanna make it very high interest and and and engaging, but their vocabulary i is is limited still. So it's it's tricky to yeah, it's it's very tricky to write about these sophisticated concepts when you don't have a lot of you know, space on the page or or or their, you know, their knowledge of the world is limited. So Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yeah. Micki: Yeah, that was that was it was good though. I I did actually I got burnt out after that and right after I had my second child. I'm like, you know, I need a break. I need a break. And unfortunately around that time we had a few deaths in the family. My dad passed away, my grandpa passed away, some other relatives passed away. Kristen Sweeney: Mm-hmm. Micki: And I realized for myself also, because I'm an only child and I realized if if no one passes some of these stories down, you know, how how are how are our our our ancestors or how are our youth gonna know? How are kids gonna know about some of these great stories? And so I I use my writing skills and I created a company called Biographies and the way I spell it with my maiden name where I have the the German PF for flug I I Kristen Sweeney: Yes, love it. Micki: replaced that in the in the word biographies. and I started that just so that we can get memoirs down on paper or there's a lot of stories within our grandparents, but they're not necessarily passed down. And I learned in talking with my grandma before she passed away. She used to be a dairy farmer in Minnesota when she was little. I had no idea. I had no Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Micki: idea. So I thought okay if I didn't know that my kids aren't gonna know that. Their kids aren't gonna know that. So I thought, okay. So I created this company to help people get their memoirs written, get their personal stories written, or if they have personal books that they want to talk about, we'll get on paper. So so I founded that. Kristen Sweeney: That's really cool. I we were also talking offline. You're in the, you know, outside of Chicago. I was in Chicago recently. and my dad is from just outside of the city. And speaking of like things that you kind of that family history that you passed down, I knew in college he had worked as an elevator operator. but we were in and I had had heard some some stories, we were in the rookery, which is like one of the most famous buildings for the interior in Chicago. It's considered like one Micki: Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: of the first skyscrapers. When all of a sudden we're in there looking around, admiring it, and he goes, You know, I think I worked the elevator here. And just starts like telling us all of these stories Micki: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: and then how we worked at the like nearby at the like Federal Reserve and he'd run the elevator and they were just like piling millions of dollars onto the elevator with them and all this stuff that came out because it was like circumstantial or he had the right sort of prompts, right, in the environment, Micki: Well. Kristen Sweeney: the right triggers to bring up the stuff that we'd never heard before. And it was just a really, really cool moment. All that kind of hidden treasure. Micki: Yeah, yeah, and I feel like our grandparents and parents and aunts and uncles have all these little unique moments. And they, you know, I think a lot of time the the tradition of passing storal stories down orally is gone a little bit with with the internet and social media. So I you know, it's we don't wanna lose that because they're they're really cool. You know, like that's a a Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah. Micki: really a really cool story that and I just and I feel like a lot of times people don't have an opportunity to share these stories. So I think Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah. Micki: it's It's a good thing when you know, when we can have people share unique tidbits Kristen Sweeney: For sure. Micki: about their life, about an elevator or dairy farming or, Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Micki: you know, what have you. Kristen Sweeney: It's not dissimilar to certainly the work that we do and I'm sure that you do as well when we're working with stakeholders, right? And we're gonna talk about a little little bit how to get how to develop communications that go beyond the sort of Pat corporate messaging. And I think this digging in and uncovering like, what does that leader have back in their experience? You know, I remember a time when, or I had this Micki: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: really interesting, touching kind of connection with a patient story or something that is sort of be above and beyond the the core messages that, you know, certainly Micki: Right. Kristen Sweeney: are important, but where where the gold often is and where that like true authenticity can really shine through. Micki: Right, right. And This is a great segue because as I was developing that company biographies, I'm I moved over also into the world of pharma and and and healthcare writing. And I didn't I didn't set out to do that, but it just so happens that an opportunity came up, and where I live, there happens to be luckily a lot of large companies, a few pharmaceutical companies, so I was able to make the jump there and and began working. in corporate communications. So and like we had spoken about earlier, you know the word corporate can corporate communications when I first joined, I thought, okay, this is kind of vague. What exactly is this? What it Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Micki: what what is it? You know, is it is it marketing? Is it PR? Is it just newsletters? You know, I didn't know. And the way I like to think of it is it's often compared to marketing, I will say that, and also public relations. But the way I like to think of it is if you compare marketing. Marketing tells you why that product or service matters. But corporate communications tells you why the company matters and what's important to the company. Kristen Sweeney: I love that distinction. Yeah, yeah. Micki: Or a funny analogy that I like to think. marketing will get you to the first date, but corporate communications gets you to the second date. Because then you learn a little bit more about the company's values. Maybe you develop a little trust in the company or you learn that they're, you know, maybe into recycling or or you know, feeding children and things like that. So it's it's it'll get you to the second date is is what I like to say. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. nice. Nice. Let's let's go there. because I Micki: Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: I don't want to dance around too much. This is the one big idea we want to cover, which is this idea of corporate comms and r relatability, which is not the status quo for a lot of corporate communication. So one of the things that I think we all take for granted, maybe too much, is that Corporate communications are kind of have that veneer, right? They feel corporate. There's a reason that's sort of attached to it. that they feel vague, they feel often like kind of those key pillars just sort of recycled over Micki: Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: and over and over and over again. And in some ways, I think there's a broad when I speak with other communicators, we're just kind of like. That's how it is gonna be. a little bit of an acceptance, a real recognition that there's Micki: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: that's so much associated with the status quo, especially in maybe you know, highly governed, highly regulated sectors. Micki: Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: I'm curious to dig in before we start talking about like how can we make it better? How could we change things? How do we make comms more corporate comms more relatable? Why? you think it is that things have sort of developed in that direction. Why is CorporateComs got the repu why does it have the reputation it does? And what are the the benefits of that kind of communication? Micki: Those are great questions, Kristen. I I feel like if a company is managing their corporate communications well, it it doesn't have that veneer or that that washed over feeling. If they're doing it well, you know what the company stands for, which as a consumer, which we all are, that can inform you do I want to buy this product from this company or or what are they doing in this space of sustainability? So I think that if a company's doing it well, you know what it is important to the company. You know what it's what is important to the CEO. you know that the companies can be or the employees can become the company's own ambassadors and they can talk about all the good things. So if they're doing if corporate communications is doing well, you feel trust in the company. You are aware. I feel when companies don't do it well, it gives the feeling there's something to hide. And if there's Kristen Sweeney: Mm. Micki: something to hide Why should we buy from them or why would I want to work there? Because now I'm a little suspicious. And maybe there's reasons behind why they can't tell certain things. And there certainly are. Maybe they can't reveal something for whatever reason. It's it's not public knowledge yet or there's privacy concerns. But I do think if a company's doing it well, doing their corporate communications well, you have you you have a window into what makes that company not only prosper but you know, kind of w what what matters to them. So Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Micki: I think if you if you do it well, but there's always that that element that companies can't share everything, you know. Kristen Sweeney: Sure. Micki: 'cause you we can't share everything, you know, companies and humans, we can't share everything with everybody. So yeah. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. One of the things I think about a little bit is sometimes, and not necessarily speaking in terms of big pharma or life sciences companies more broadly, but there are times I've experienced where a company's messaging feels quite flat and the root cause isn't really the messaging. The root cause is that The organization itself isn't all that differentiated, doesn't have a really strong point of view, doesn't have key initiatives they really care deeply about and are authentically like exciting for leadership. And so I think one of the things I would add to this is that you can only beautifully communicate what already exists. You can't make it you know, you can't make up the whole story and the differentiation out of whole cloth. That has to reflect the organization itself. And if there's no sort of there there in a particular Micki: Mm. Kristen Sweeney: area, then it's a really uphill battle to try to just put that responsibility on the communications to make something stand out and be different and unique and authentic and all those things. Micki: Right. Kristen Sweeney: when you're like, well what do what do we think about this? And it's kind of a there's not a lot of opinion or perspective sort of in in the room, so to speak. Micki: Yes. Yeah, it's it's when, you know, there's a crisis and and the company says, Well, we're working on it now but they say we're working on it for three weeks and and then okay, we know that. So I do feel that a lot of times what gets said in the corporate communications world, not necessarily marketing or or product selling It reflects what's going on inside the company. So it gives you an opportunity to see, well, maybe maybe what's going on inside the company isn't isn't going well. Maybe they're making a profit, but are the leaders not agreeing? Do they not have a strong path forward? So I feel like if you know a lot about the company or if they make a mistake and they own up to it, that tells you something about what's going on inside the company, about their philosophy or their culture or their their numbers even. Are they are they being successful? Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I've definitely had situations where with clients we have to balance you know, they want to be transparent about these are our initiatives, this is what we're working on. But sometimes, you know, that initiative's not going the way they planned, or it's more challenging. And yes, there's a time and a place to be open about your problems and your challenges, but usually not. Publishing that externally at the exact same time that you're trying to work through something. It's a little better to say, this was hard. Here's how we are moving toward the other side. Micki: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: you know, not crisis comes, that's kind of separate, but for, you know, something like, this change management is harder than we thought it would be. you know, we definitely have to be sensitive to where does the leader want to go, what is their vision, and balancing that with what's the practical day to day reality inside the organization because of course your Micki: Right. Kristen Sweeney: your employees are always an audience, no matter who your Micki: Yeah must. Kristen Sweeney: communications are intended for, as the primary stake primary audience employees are always an important Micki: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: group to consider. Micki: Yeah, and believe it or not, you know, we talk about being authentic and especially for influencers in social media, you know, being authentic. And there is something to being for being said for a company to be authentic if they make a mistake to publicly acknowledge that. We all make mistakes, companies make mistakes. So there is something to be said, I feel, that there there can be a certain level of authenticity that you can share with your audiences. And like you mentioned, your audience is also your employees. It's also your your vendors that you work with, in addition to the the general public. So there is something to be said for a certain level of transparency. But you it it is it is a tricky it is a tricky tightrope to walk. You know, there's a lot that you Can say lot that you don't want to say. And and what makes sense? Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. And so we've talked about, you know, a little bit about relatability as this kind of way forward for corporate communications. Some of that is being transparent as to the extent possible, right? That's something I've heard you mention. We've got all these different stakeholder groups to consider. maybe not quite the span of second graders to college, but you know, in some Micki: Right. Kristen Sweeney: ways I think the parallels are are obvious in terms of just that their different, their different needs, different level of familiarity Micki: Right. Kristen Sweeney: with the information with information being presented. How do you think about being relatable to so many different types of audience members, so many different types of people? And what does relatability really look like? Micki: Kristen, those are great questions. I think, you know, we're personally, and we're taught this from the age that we're small as individuals. We can't be all things to all people. And I think that's okay. companies strive to reach as many of their stakeholders and and different demographics of audience members as much as possible. I think what it comes down to is how authentic a company can be. And I think a good way to see that is is look at their leaders. How what what are they doing out there in the world, in the public? What are what are they wearing? What are they saying? Where are they where are they attending? Wh what conferences are they attending? And I think that that you can reach audiences, even if you can't relate to a company's message or their product if you can see their leaders and their employees speaking about the company I think that's a another way that corporate communications kind of sneaks in into be relatable because you can't be relatable but I think if you have a a good sense of what you want to tell and and who who is interested in hearing that who needs to know it. And I think that can help increase your relatability. But there are gonna be stakeholders that probably, you know, there's that small percentage where they're never gonna relate to anything that you say, and that's normal. That's okay. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Micki: So I think an increasing relatability, I think just you know, I think it's just honing in from a from a communication standpoint, it's honing in on your message. What do you value as a company? What do you want people to know about you? What matters to you as a company? And what do you want the employees to know about that? So they can speak about it and continue the corporate communications message, if you will, just in going about their daily lives. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, that's it's interesting. And I what I'm kind of hearing and taking is that as much as it's relatability, that part of that's defined by just intention, right? Not every CEO is gonna show up in, I don't know, jeans and cowboy boots and like be someone you wanna get a beer with. Like that's okay. right. Micki: Yeah, yeah. Kristen Sweeney: and someone who's not not kind of inclined in that type of personality probably shouldn't try to fake it either. Micki: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: That there but that there's also the idea of being able to relate to values and mission and purpose and Micki: Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: commitment. and that someone might be, you know, yeah, like the person who wants to show up in a suit and is a little bit more formal and that doesn't mean That there's a a way that that can be relatable, but it's maybe through again like the brand's values and what they stand for and what they're trying to achieve. Micki: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: That it's not about kind of twisting a leader up in knots trying to get them to conform to a certain way of being or Micki: Right. Kristen Sweeney: presenting that's overly performative. Micki: Right, and if you are not a a a beer drinking jeans wearing person, then wear what you wear because w you know, in today's world where everything there's cameras everywhere, it's such a visual global world these days that that we'll see that if if if their if their intention if they aren't coming correct, if their intention is a little bit not what they feel is is good for them, we'll be able to tell. And I think that Even though that's not corporate communications per se, I feel like it's part of it. It's part of that environment. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, sure. If you were coming into a company, you know, kind of fresh and they had that corporate comms function that everything felt a little bit stale, vague, where would you where would you start in kind of tr trying to transform or change how that function looked and bring some of this relatability in? Micki: That's another great question. I think I would ask I I would ask the people in the company, you know, what what if you work here, what makes you proud to work? You you are working here, what makes you proud to work here? What do you want people to know about the good things about this company? What what should we be known for? What do we want to be known for? is it making is it making shoes? Is it making shoes out of recyclable materials and we donate a million shoes to kids every year? You know, so I would take a look at what what do we want to be known for? Aside from product that is or services, but Kristen Sweeney: Right, right. Micki: what do we want to be known for? What's important to us as a company? And and you know, you can even bring it down to the individual level as as an employee, what's important to you? What what do you value? And then you can just expand that to the company a little bit Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Micki: bigger. So I would I would get a little more, you know, existential and say what what matters to us? What matters to us? Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Backing up all the way from the beginning. And I love the idea of, you know, bringing that not to okay, what is it we want to say to people, but again, starting with what do we have here? What's here? What's different? Micki: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: What's unique? What what matters to us? What do we value? Let's and then you can always look at that and say, I I love this. This is great. Or, you know. I really want to move things in a different direction. So how do we take action accordingly? But your baseline is how pe how do people feel today? it's there's there's already like a what do I wanna say like Even if your messages aren't directed, it's not that there's no no sense of how people perceive you, right? Like Micki: Yes. Kristen Sweeney: it it already there the reputation sort of exists whether or not you have shaped it in the way you want to. It's still there. so Micki: Yes. Kristen Sweeney: finding out kind of what it is first. that's a great Micki: You know what, that's a great point. Like, even if you do nothing as a company, you're gonna have a reputation. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Micki: So w what do you wanna be known for? Where do you where where do you where you know, how do you wanna shape that? And sh I mean shape it in a good way, you know, if do you wanna change something is or is the perception incorrect? Well then how as a company, how can we change that? Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yeah. I love that. Lots to think about, lots to chew on. as we all kind of fight that good fight of looking toward broader differentiation. And there's risk involved, right? I think that's something to kind of go back to. Why is it this way? Micki: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: the status quo gets such a sort of negative, you know, connotation, but we have to remember what it means is like you're with lots of other people doing the same thing and that feels very safe. Micki: Yes. Kristen Sweeney: And people like to feel safe. Micki: Yes. Yes. Yes. People like to feel safe. Companies like to feel safe. And Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Micki: I can understand if if something's always been working, you know, if i if it ain't broke, don't fix it. But maybe Yeah, Kristen Sweeney: Well enough, yeah. Yeah. Micki: but maybe that's not a good enough reason. Maybe, you know, where can we do better? You know, where can Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. And that's why I like too what we've been talking about of like that ability to demonstrate like this this is who we are already, but we need to talk about it more. We need to share that information or share our perspective. But we're not necessarily like revamping the whole image of the company. We're just surfacing kind of Micki: Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: the the parts that we really wanna wanna share with our audience. Micki: Right, and sometimes a company is doing good things for the environment, say specifically, saving a lot of water in their manufacturing plants. But if nobody knows about it, maybe that's an opportunity to share that Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Micki: so that you can have more of a rounded picture and round out the reputation that we know already exists. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah. Love it. Well, thank you for the conversation on this topic. I wanna make make sure we have enough time to get to our lightning round. So we're gonna move on to the last word. This is a segment where every guest gets the same five questions. So you just go with your gut on these answers. Micki are you ready? Micki: I I hope so, yes. Kristen Sweeney: All right. Question one. What's your favorite word to say out loud? Micki: Okay. It would be the word barnacles. it it's a it's my G rated version of a curse word. When my kids were little and at times if I felt the need to curse, I would say barnacles. So I still get a kick out of the word. Kristen Sweeney: I love that. I love I was gonna ask if you were you know, had a a sailing hobby or something, but I understand. That's a nice nice genesis for that. Question two. What's a word you know from reading, but you are not sure how to say it out loud? Micki: Okay, I'm gonna embarrass myself, but it's emerit emeritus Professor Emeritus. Kristen Sweeney: yeah. I think so, I'm Eritus? Micki: Yeah, so the way I always say it in my head is I add a whole bunch of accents to it. So I make it this big word and really it's like I take a plain white t shirt and I'm bedazzling it and adding lace. No, I don't need to do that. It's just it's just a word. But I stumble over that word all the time. Kristen Sweeney: So where you get that workaround, like a professor who used to be a professor. Micki: Yeah. This well respected former professor, but maybe still occasionally teaches a class. That person. Yeah. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, exactly. Question three. What's a phrase or saying you wish could be retired for good? Micki: Okay, I'm probably gonna you know, we're probably gonna get hate emails for this, but I've never liked the phrase it is what it is. I'm guilty of saying it all the time. I get what it means, but I just you know, if that phrase were removed from our world permanently, I wouldn't be sad. Let's just say that. Or those that Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Micki: yeah, if it was if it was gone I'd be okay with it. Kristen Sweeney: So I figure our third, third or fourth guest who's brought this up. My husband used to give me the hardest time. He's like, how is this not every guest's answer? What's funny Micki: Ha ha ha. Kristen Sweeney: is that ever since I've been having guests tell me that this is the phrase they'd like to get rid of, I say it more often. Micki: Of course, 'cause now it's in your head. Kristen Sweeney: Because I think it's just in don't think of an elephant, you know? so now it's in my head and I have to stop myself from saying it, which is not a phrase I used to say, but this is a good one, a very popular one. So you are in good company. Micki: Okay. Kristen Sweeney: I certainly haven't come across anyone who's like this phrase must exist. I think it is Micki: Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: often a a placeholder for some kind of emotion that we're feeling that we don't know quite how to. Micki: Right. Kristen Sweeney: Do the mental work of of articulating or spelling it out. So Micki: Right, right, yeah. Kristen Sweeney: Question four, how about a communication practice or principle that's non negotiable for you? Micki: do not send the first draft ever. And you know, I have to laugh because I don't know if you do this, but during the winter holidays we receive a lot of holiday letters from family members. And there's one family member in particular that sends it in, you know, nine point font single space. just this long letter talking Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Micki: about a fish that they may have caught over the summer. And I thought, if they would just read it over just just one time. Just Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Micki: we don't need a professional editor to come in, but just just please read that over before you send it. And I don't think they do, but they're entertaining letters, but I feel like just in general, just it's never a good idea to send the first draft. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yeah. I love that. My number one editing simple editing hack is just read it out loud because you're forced Micki: Yes. Kristen Sweeney: to look at the words, but then you can hear where the sentences are weird or Micki: Yes. Kristen Sweeney: things are confusing or your tongue naturally trips over the phrase. I think as a an actor and a singer, I'm very I really I read and I kinda hear the Micki: Okay. Kristen Sweeney: the melody of the words, so that's a powerful one for me. Micki: Yeah. Yes. I I agree. Yeah. I think that I think that's that's yeah, that's very good. That's a very good 'cause then you can see where Kristen Sweeney: It's a quicket. Micki: you're where a reader might get tripped up on what they're reading. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yeah. Micki: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: All right, last question. What's the last thing you read, heard, or watched that really stuck with you? Micki: Okay well I would have to say I I read a lot of self help books. I'm always in the in a couple of different books at the same time. And I would say it's not so much the books, but I love it when people say the phrase in the books or whatever where they say, you know, don't dull my sparkle or however they word it. And even if it's in a in a in a fiction film or something in a character says a version of that, however you want to say it. I just I just get so I get so touched because I think, yes, you know. or another version of that is is your your yum might be someone else's yuck or your yuck might be someone else's yum. Kristen Sweeney: yeah, don't yuck my yum. Micki: Yeah. So I I just like that. I think that not everyone has to love what you love and that's okay and you can love your own version of yuck or yum. So yeah. So that it always sticks with me whenever I see that phrase or a version of that phrase. Kristen Sweeney: Good Wares to live by Micki Thank you so much for Micki: I yeah. Kristen Sweeney: joining us today. I wanna give you a chance if our listeners want to learn more about you, where can they go to find you? Micki: The best place is on LinkedIn. Kristen Sweeney: Awesome. We'll include that link in the show notes as well. Micki: Okay. Kristen Sweeney: This has been a great conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time to join me. Thank you so much for being here. Micki: thank you for having me, Kristen. This was great and I I loved all these questions. It it's some of the trickier questions are food for thought and I love the lightning round. So thank you. Kristen Sweeney: Awesome. Awesome. Talk soon. Micki: Okay, bye-bye.