Latest / Social In Security / Luxury Branding is a Feeling | Heather Wiese & Emily Paulsen

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Luxury Branding is a Feeling | Heather Wiese & Emily Paulsen · Social In Security

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There is an invisible language underneath every interaction you
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have. I've spent my career learning to
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read it. I'm Heather Wiese and this is
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social insecurity, where we get into modern etiquette, luxury
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and the social intelligence that decides how you are received.
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The quiet art of the first impression and the confidence to
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carry yourself anywhere. The rules are real, and they are
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also learnable. Consider this your invitation.
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Luxury online is interesting because I think we know it when
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we feel it, even before we can explain why.
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A website can have beautiful photography, an expensive logo,
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all the right words, and somehow still feel noisy or crowded,
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like it's trying too hard. And then when you land somewhere
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else where there is less, maybe more space, it feels
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intentional. Fewer choices, a handful of
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details. Somehow the business feels more
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valuable even before you know what they charge.
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My guest today has built a company around understanding why
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that happens. Emily Paulson spent more than 14
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years in branding and marketing, working with companies ranging
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from Abercrombie and Fitch and The Wendy's Company to startups
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and small businesses. Today, she is the founder of
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Electric Collab. It's a psychology based branding
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studio that helps founders create premium brand experiences
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that actually reflect the level of the work they do.
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It helps people communicate luxury to clients.
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Simply put, today I want to talk about the psychology of luxury
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online. Why does space feel expensive?
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And why can restraint communicate more confidence than
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filling every inch of the page? And by the way, that happens
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with event branding and invitations as well.
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So what makes something feel considered rather than
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decorated? And can a brand feel luxurious
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without having to be minimal or serious or completely stripped
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of personality? Welcome to the podcast, Emily.
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I'm super excited to have you here.
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I'm in luxury now, which is where this podcast came out of
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Bell. And Vito is obviously a luxury
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stationer lifestyle brand. And where I came from, the world
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of Neiman Marcus before this, where I was, you know, employed
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as a baby coming out of school and where I cut my teeth,
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obviously also luxury. So what you do is fascinating.
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And I mean, you've been doing it for a decade and 1/2 at least.
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And it's, it must have evolved tremendously.
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Like you must just have to learn on your feet, for one thing.
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Yeah. But the world of branding, it's
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funny, there are some tenants that I think have always been
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true since companies started thinking of themselves as brands
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or thinking of the brand as sort of a way to interact with the
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public, which is really what it is.
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It's the way that the outside world understands a business and
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can emotionally connect with it. Hopefully that's what we're
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striving for. I think there's been some
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similarities and what that requires all along, but
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obviously the world around us is changing all the time.
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Now we have AI, why the content machine is so much noisier than
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what it was even 51015 years ago.
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So when we think about branding and trying to define that first
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impression and lasting reputation that it gives a
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business, there's always evolution into how we can
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connect with people and stay relevant regardless of what's
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evolving around us. That in and of itself it just
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like it blows my mind because I'm like this.
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That's just a constant stream of having to like keep up and
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change and algorithms change and you have to pivot and all of
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that. But starting with the basics,
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just when you land on a website or I'm guessing that's also the
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e-mail blast that goes out, That's the social media that's
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tied to the website. So just talking about when you,
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if I'm wanting to convey luxury, whether I'm a retail business,
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whether I'm a real estate agent, if I'm an attorney that deals
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with certain level of clients industry wide, is there
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something that what is that thing?
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I know there is something. What is that thing that I see
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instantly that makes me go They're high end.
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Yeah, it's a feeling, right? It's a feeling more than
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something specific you can usually put your finger on.
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And yeah, let's talk about all of it.
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This is my favorite subject. I think first it's helpful to
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zoom out and kind of define what is a brand and what is marketing
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because those things get really muddied and we use them
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interchangeably. Founders, businesses, even
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service providers, we can talk about them very similarly.
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I think of a brand as the soul of a business.
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So really defining who are you, what do you stand for?
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What's the meaning behind this? What's the purpose that drives
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you forward? What's the tone of voice?
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What's the personality? What are you doing in your
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industry that's totally unique and different than what buyers
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could get anywhere else? All of that is part of shaping a
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brand. And none of those things even
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have to do with visuals yet. We're just talking about the
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strategy, the position that you really want to claim in your
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industry, whatever that industry is.
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So if branding is the soul of the business, marketing is the
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mouth. Once we've figured out who are
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we, what do we want to be known for and who do we want to serve,
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marketing is the way to tell that message over and over and
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over again in a lot of different ways in a lot of different
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places. So whether that's social media,
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e-mail marketing, relationship marketing by networking with
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people, attending events, speaking on stage, there's so
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many different ways that we need to get our business out there in
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front of new eyeballs. That's kind of the communication
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of what the brand is already set up to be.
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So I think that's important because sometimes when we're
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like, my brand needs to shift or maybe I'm building a brand for
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the first time, we jump to like, well, let me get an Instagram
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setup or I should probably start emailing people.
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And unless you're really clear on what's the intention of that
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message before you start sending it, we can kind of confuse
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people and frankly, we can confuse ourselves.
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So I think there's a lot of value in understanding where to
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start when it comes to thinking about your brand.
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And to answer your question about luxury, I mean, there's a
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lot to it, but I think that the secret ingredient that people
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miss the most is restraint. You mentioned that you kind of
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have a feeling, right? If you land on a website or if
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you see even a piece of merchandise out in the world, we
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can tell almost from far away. Like is this a high end item or
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is this maybe a little less expensive, a little lower end?
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And sometimes we just have this drive within us that if we want
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to charge more money or we want to be seen as expensive, we just
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start shoving in more. More explanation and the way we
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describe it. More visual design, more
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elements, more animation. If it's a website and actually
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stripping those things down, having enough confidence and
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clarity to do something that's a little bit more restrained, that
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has such a more luxurious feeling to the user error.
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Because we don't have to sift through all this stuff.
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Like we don't have to read a million things and kind of look
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through all these different design elements.
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They've stripped it down for us, which feels intentional and
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therefore a lot more luxurious. That makes me think of what it
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feels like to shop at a discount store where it's just racks and
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racks and racks versus what it feels like to walk onto, you
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know, a curated floor and a boutique.
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And it's just, you know, the specific colors and it's all
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laid out. And it feels like the decisions
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are well made for you. So instead of making this many
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decisions, you make like this many. 100% I use that example
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all the time. Like picture the shelves at
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Walmart and picture the shelves at Dior.
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Very different, and that's on purpose.
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Yeah, absolutely. So is that so I think when I'm
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creating branding for a client and this is for me for it's an
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event, right? People feel like minimal, I
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can't have personality. I don't have the words for this.
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So I'm throwing this into your court.
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I don't know how to explain this.
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And I have a feeling you're going to be really good at it.
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So I think of, I'm trying to think of a brand right now
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that's like really stripped down and minimal.
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I think of like Jill Sander or one of these great, you know,
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fabulous brands that's exclusively minimal by design
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across the board. And then I think of Hermes,
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which obviously very luxurious, but whimsical.
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And when you see their windows or you see their, you know,
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cartoons that they make for social media or whatever, these
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are both luxury. They both are very good at
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saying luxury, but they both have personality and well, while
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one is stripped down according to this kind of like restraint
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thing, the other one has restraint but it's not lacking
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personality. What is that like?
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How is that accomplished? Minimal or luxury does not mean
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boring, and luxury doesn't even have to be minimal.
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So when we think about OK, what truly is luxury, but beyond
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restraint and we can get into design details of what type of
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font and how much white space do you have on the website and how
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do you think about a color palette?
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All of those things have a role in this.
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But before we get there, going back to those strategic
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direction pieces of what are we trying to communicate?
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Who are we as a business? And we know that Hermes has
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roots in the equestrian industry, and they're so
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connected to color and pattern, and they use a lot of animals,
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whether it's a horse or, you know, lots of other stuff.
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If you look at the history of their scarves, it wouldn't even
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make sense connected to their history for them to just start
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doing everything black and white.
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There's a whole story behind the orange.
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They've trademarked that color. So it goes back to who are you
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as a business. And I think we are in a really
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sad epidemic right now of people feeling that luxury means
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sameness. Like, oh, then I have to have a
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beige background. I have to have black script
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font. I have to only use this type of
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imagery because that's what I'm seeing other luxurious brands
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doing. That just makes you forgettable.
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It doesn't equal looking high end.
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So I think infusing the self-expression of your
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personality and who you are into the brand, you can do that
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without losing that luxury feel. An example I use a lot is Kelly
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Worsler. She's an interior designer and
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her designs are very loud and she seems really cool.
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Her outfits are weird and they're put together in these
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unique combinations and she's wearing, you know, a $6000 see
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through top with like ripped up jeans.
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Like it's very unmistakably her, but she charges a massive amount
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of money and works for celebrity clients.
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So I think we we risk losing out on really differentiating
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ourselves and letting that personality shine.
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If we just lead with like, let me try to look expensive, we end
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up stripping out some of that stuff that makes U.S. special.
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Right. It's sort of like wearing brands
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as opposed to wearing something that's stylish for the sake of,
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you know, I mean, I that's when you say that, that's immediately
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what I thought of. If you have a, a way that you're
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trying to convey yourself as luxury, where do you start with
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a client? To your point, do we start with
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a website? Do we start with someone told me
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once, and this was years ago, you people aren't even going to
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need websites anymore. Instagram's going to be your
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website or whatever, you know, social media channel.
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You choose TikTok, whatever it is.
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Where are we today? Great question.
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And AI has really changed this as well.
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The idea that you don't need a website because we have social
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media, I think is a big brisk because when you whatever you
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build on Instagram, Tiktok, it doesn't matter.
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You don't own that platform. That is you're basically
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borrowing A teeny tiny piece of real estate on somebody else's
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platform. And I'm sure we've all heard
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horror stories of people who have lost their entire account,
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they've lost their following, something gets hacked or they
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get locked out and you have no course.
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And that you also don't own any of the data for your followers.
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Like you can run analytical reports, but you can't
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communicate with them outside of the platform unless you get them
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to go sign up for something else.
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So there's a big risk there. You don't own that digital
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presence. You're just kind of renting a
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tiny piece of it. You can use that as a marketing
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channel, and that can be incredibly effective and
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important, but it's not the same thing as having a digital home
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on the Internet. I've also heard people saying
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that with AI, websites aren't going to become relevant.
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And I also don't think that's true because AI search is going
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out on the Internet and they're mining everything that exists
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out there. If you don't have a website, if
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you don't have a digital presence, ChatGPT is not going
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to know to recommend you if one of your ideal clients is asking
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ChatGPT about your type of product.
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So we still have to have some ownership out there on the
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Internet if we want Google to recommend us ChatGPT, Claude,
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any of the AI platforms, or even to connect those social media
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channels that we're using for marketing so that we're driving
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people back somewhere to purchase.
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I don't think websites are going anywhere.
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I would agree with you. I'm really happy to hear you say
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that. Cuz when I was told that, I
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thought first of all, it's like when Instagram was introduced, I
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was like, I'd have to do this now, you know, but you made me
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think of something like for right now, my brand, we can't
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sell on Meta. Something happened with our
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catalog. I can't tell you how many hours
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I spent on customer service. So in order to sell anything, we
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have to link, you know, off back to the website.
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But to your point, if I didn't have a website to link to, I
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couldn't sell product because of some sort of disconnect in their
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server that they don't have the people to fix, right?
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So that's really interesting. And the other thing I thought of
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when you said that was AI is not able to crawl social media.
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They can't see when somebody, right?
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They can't see when somebody has a huge following or engagement
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or if they're selling something. I mean, right.
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How does that work today? I don't know all the nuance of
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where AI is with search. I think they can find and serve
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up social media profiles so that presence is relevant.
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And there was a big change in the summer of last year, the
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summer of 2025, where Meta social platforms became SEO
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optimized. So basically if I was searching
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for the best cake decorator in Chicago, they could serve me an
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Instagram account and not just a website.
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So social media is relevant for AI and traditional search.
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It's more about the ownership of what happens when that person
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clicks into that search result. Are they able to buy from you
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there? Can you communicate with them
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there? And do you have ownership of all
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of that data and that relationship so that if that
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company went away tomorrow, which is totally possible, are
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you going to be able to stay in business?
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That's why I think it's a risk to base everything off a social
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presence. That's interesting.
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So going back to just as far as like reading the brand before we
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read anything about the brand. So I'm going back to the visual
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of a luxury brand. A website can be objectively
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beautiful and still somehow feel inexpensive.
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So we're trying to create luxury and somehow we missed the mark.
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What are the cues? Do you have a read on things
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that are actual cues that we, I don't know if we're conditioned.
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I don't know if it's a natural response to something I know
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curated. I know white space, but can you
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elaborate on that or give me a little more?
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Yeah. So basically when we think
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about, there's kind of two key pieces to a luxurious brand
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experience and we'll use a website that's kind of the
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digital home, right, where the brand comes to life.
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One of them is emotional connection.
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So we want people to feel something specific when they
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land on our website. And that's totally dependent on
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what your business is. You could have a party supply
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store and we want people to feel really excited.
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Maybe you have a somatic healing therapy practice and you want
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people to feel really calm and relaxed.
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You maybe want people to feel relieved, happy, shocked, right?
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It doesn't matter what that emotional response is.
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We can think about like nonprofits that use a lot of
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emotional triggers, right, to get people to take action by
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showing the cutest little puppy who really needs your help on
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the homepage. I'm a fucker.
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It works like a charm and I'm very pro puppy, so it's a great
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tactic. So that's part of it.
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We want to think about what is the emotional experience that
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our audience needs. If you're trying to sell, let's
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say, a luxurious spa getaway and your target audience is stressed
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out moms, if you have really bold colors or bright colors and
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you have a lot of text that's over explaining, like how it
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works and what you get, that's a lot.
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That's too much for a stressed out mom.
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She's just going to X out of that, right?
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It's too overwhelming. So we have to think about the
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emotional state of our ideal client when they're searching
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for our types of services. I think that piece is really
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key. And that's really what gets
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conversions. Like we have a lot of data that
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shows 95% of purchasing decisions are made in the
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subconscious. So we even when we're buying
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something, we can't even necessarily explain why.
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We can justify it with logic and say, oh, like I, I outgrew my
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last pair of jeans. I don't feel confident in them.
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I need another pair of jeans. But the reason I really bought
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those jeans is much deeper, right?
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It has to do with a feeling that I am seeking and I believe I'm
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going to get it if I get this new pair of jeans and it doesn't
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matter what it is. It could be a $5 cup of coffee,
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a $50,000 car. We always, almost always make
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purchasing decisions based on emotion, so that piece is
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critical before we get into like the fun, sexy.
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I just had a like an oh wow moment.
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I mean, I'm 25 years into my business and we're almost 25
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years into my business and I'm going, I have listened to so
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many marketing pitches and I've had like 3 different marketing
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teams through the eras. And you know about the emotion
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you want to convey, but no one has ever put it into the terms
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of the emotion people are having, the emotions people are
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having while they're searching for what they want to buy from
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you. And that put it in a completely
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different context for me. That was that's so true.
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That's so true. So I'm so glad it's helpful.
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Yeah. I mean, all of this really comes
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down to like, you want to show your perfect buyer, I understand
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where you are today. I understand where you want to
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go. I am the bridge to get you
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there. I will.
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Get you there? Exactly.
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Tell me more about that. OK, so when we think about how
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do we tactically achieve some of this stuff with our visual
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design, we want to think about clarity for our brains.
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Our brains process images 60,000 times faster than they can
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process words, which is hard for me to wrap my head around.
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We form a visual impression. I think it's like 13
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milliseconds or something like that.
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It was a study that came out of MIT.
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So the visuals hit us first and hopefully we hit people in the
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in the right way. So they actually read like, what
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is this business? What do we do?
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And they ultimately they buy from us.
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But part of that initial visual experience connecting back to
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that emotional need, we want to think about how do we create
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something that feels easy on the eye, enjoyable to look at
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somewhere where I want to spend my time.
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White space is part of that because clutter equals chaos.
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And we know this, like picture your kitchen counter like it's,
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it's like an ick when you wake up and you're like, oh, why
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didn't I do the dishes? And I have all this mail piling
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up. Like you can feel that in your
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body. There's a little bit of a stress
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response. Same thing if we open a web page
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and there's like a million different things for us to look
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at. So white space matters a lot.
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Order, thinking of a hierarchy of the information that you're
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sharing with people. What is the most critical thing
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that they need to read first? That hook or headline that opens
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the page? Do you have a feature image or a
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carousel of images, and do the colors feel cohesive when
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somebody's looking at those as a set?
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Are we telling an emotional story?
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Like are we showcasing products or are we showing people using
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our products and, you know, kind of giving more of a lifestyle
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vibe? So imagery really matters as
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well. But again, we're thinking about
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the order in which people are experiencing these things,
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having things that are linear. That doesn't mean you have to
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have a bunch of actual lines all over your website, but making it
21:05
easy on the eye so we don't have to look and see.
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OK, do I go left to right? Do I go up to down?
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Am I supposed to look at? On the movement of the eyes.
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Easy on the movement of the eyes and that was something I learned
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a lot. I got certified as a UX
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Designer, which is User experience Design.
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And that comes into play not just on websites, but products.
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Like really anything that's being created and users are
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going to interact with it. Somebody is thinking about
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designing that experience. And I learned a lot about left
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justifying text and even using logos strategically in certain
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spots on a website, because if you think about like a paragraph
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that's left justified versus text that is centered, every
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time you go down to the next line, it's starting in a
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different spot. If we're looking at centered
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text that is so micro like it feels like, how could that
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possibly make a difference? But if it's those tiny things,
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our brain is having to work a little bit harder.
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Our eyes are working a little bit harder when we have to go
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through information like that. And we don't want to put up any
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barriers at our brands. We don't want to make it harder
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for people to spend time on our website or with our business.
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So understanding all of those subtle updates that make it
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easier to read literally also make it feel a lot more luxury.
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And I think part of that is just because those subconscious
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associations that I don't want to work hard, I don't want to
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sift through a bunch of stuff, make it easy for me.
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That feels like a more luxurious experience.
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That makes sense. OK, so I'm going to ask you if
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you have a hack or something as a business owner, the luxury
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website, one of the things that I feel like especially small
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business owner and you know, I've actually talked to someone
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who is in a huge business and they're doing the same thing.
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They have AI crawl the websites now, right?
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It's like, tell us what to do better, tell us what to improve
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and AI tells you what to improve.
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And in my case and then this other person's case, I was
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having a conversation with again, two totally different
23:01
businesses. One was more mainstream, the
23:03
larger one and then mine, the luxury 1.
23:06
You get all this feedback from AI, you don't have enough of
23:09
this information. You have to tell more of this
23:11
story. You're going to do better ROI if
23:13
you have this. And it's more and more and more
23:14
and more and it's what I was struggling with is that feels
23:19
like I'm cluttering things up. We spent money on the
23:22
photography to capture the luxuriousness of that.
23:29
Do we really need to also explain it or is the text hidden
23:32
somewhere, you know, from a marketing perspective?
23:34
So Google reads it, but the human doesn't have to, because
23:38
that's too much for the human. How do we navigate that now?
23:42
Yeah, I think as much as I am pro AI and I am, there's a
23:47
danger in that, right? Because AI is not a human
23:50
customer. It's not a luxury buyer, right?
23:53
They're using frameworks that they've learned just by mining
23:56
everything on the Internet and they're kind of throwing
23:59
everything together and like, what could a website ever be?
24:03
And I've tried this too as an experiment.
24:05
I've done it on my website, client websites and the things
24:08
that it spits out. I, I disagree with most of it.
24:12
I think it's much, much more valuable to spend time putting
24:16
yourself in the mindset of a potential buyer.
24:19
And that's hard to do for a founder or business leader
24:22
because we are incredibly close to our business.
24:25
So we can look at something and feel like this is so clear, this
24:28
is so great. It's so differentiated from
24:30
everyone else. Like I feel like I've nailed it.
24:32
It's hard to get that outside perspective.
24:34
Obviously, hiring help with your brand can achieve that.
24:38
I also think like you can, you can push yourself, right?
24:41
Like read through some of your favorite client testimonials or
24:44
even your e-mail interactions and just try to get into the
24:47
headspace of the person who's actually going to buy from you.
24:51
That's not AI, right? It's a real human.
24:54
And I think going back for your website with fresh eyes to the
24:58
best of your ability and thinking, OK, we had a whole
25:01
e-mail conversation about price. Is it worth me putting the price
25:05
on the website? Like, was that a sticking point
25:07
that I could have made more efficient?
25:08
Or we had an e-mail interaction where they really didn't
25:10
understand how long it would take for me to craft their
25:13
custom stationary or whatever it is.
25:15
Should I just add a really streamlined section that says
25:19
orders take 6 to 8 weeks? Here's step 12 and 3 of what to
25:22
expect, right? So there there are important
25:25
wayfinding information pieces that we should have on a
25:29
website. Luxury doesn't mean we strip it
25:31
down to a few gorgeous photos and we hope people figure it
25:34
out. We need to make sure that we're
25:35
giving them enough information that they can step forward.
25:39
But I just think you're going to have a lot more success if you
25:42
decide which pieces of information are most valuable
25:45
based on real people versus what AI is telling you and telling,
25:50
you know, everybody else across different industries that might
25:52
not apply. Right.
25:54
Is there a generational thing to like if I said, OK, my
26:00
demographics are 35 to 65, are you going to coach me different
26:06
visually specifically for luxury than if I say we really are
26:12
hitting that, you know, fresh out of college, 25 to 45 year
26:16
old, How are they? Are the visuals the same are
26:20
because they're luxury? Are the visuals different
26:22
because of the age groups? Yeah, that's a good question.
26:26
I think there is there is a difference between the way
26:29
somebody who's 65 today and 25 today evaluates a business and a
26:34
product. Demographics matter for that
26:37
exact reason. Gender, right?
26:38
Like are we targeting mostly men or women?
26:40
That's the difference. And how we want to visually
26:43
appeal. Are we targeting younger people
26:44
versus older people? There's a difference in that
26:46
too. Where that becomes complicated
26:49
is if you have an audience that's 25 to 75, right then what
26:53
do we do? Do we try to squeeze in all of
26:55
it? Do we try to talk to Gen.
26:57
Z on the homepage and then talk to the older people on the
26:59
service page? Like, that's going to be like a
27:02
chaotic, disjointed mess. So I always encourage people,
27:05
demographics matter. Age, gender, income, you know,
27:09
location, all of those stats about a person.
27:13
Psychographics matter so much more So thinking about the lived
27:18
experience of your buyer, especially if you serve multiple
27:21
age ranges. What do they have in common?
27:24
Why are they all buying from us, even if they're 25 or 75?
27:28
I worked at Wendy's as a brand manager years ago before I
27:33
started my own business, and Wendy's is for a lot of
27:36
different people. It's for moms, it's for college
27:39
boys eating Baconators in the middle of the night.
27:41
It's for retired people who go every day at 11 AM and get a
27:44
junior cheeseburger. So they have a lot of different
27:46
audiences to speak to, a lot of different messages to send.
27:49
And they have new ones that, like the Baconator brand, is a
27:52
little bit different than the Junior Frosty Kids meal brand,
27:56
right? But the overarching messages are
27:59
similar. It's about quality, family,
28:01
legacy. They're showcasing things that
28:04
make Wendy's different compared to other brands.
28:07
So I think understanding the commonalities in your audience,
28:11
start there. And if one of the commonalities
28:14
of your audience is that they're all Gen.
28:16
Z, great. Weave in that tone visually and
28:20
in the language so that you're going to appeal to those people.
28:23
That's interesting. And I think that's, that
28:25
actually helps simplify something that I really struggle
28:28
with because specific to a large part of my clientele, we're
28:33
doing wedding invitations a lot, right?
28:35
And so am I talking to the mother of the bride?
28:39
Because half the time that's the client or the mother of the
28:41
groom, or am I talking to the bride?
28:44
Because, you know, a certain section that's the client and,
28:47
and people come in and that's a common question I get asked,
28:49
especially if someone's doing marketing or PR there.
28:52
Who are we talking to? Are we talking to the, you know,
28:54
who's your main? And I'm going they kind of range
28:57
from brides that are 25 all the way up to the mother of the
29:01
bride who's planning the whole thing and her daughter doesn't
29:03
really care because it's mom and dad party anyway.
29:06
So I like what you said about figuring out the main message,
29:11
you know, what are you paying to everyone?
29:14
And then how do you reach specific groups?
29:17
Do you find that businesses reach specific groups by having
29:22
separate landing pages? Do you have something like, how
29:26
do you actually give the same message on something as simple
29:30
as a website or on your one social media channel?
29:33
How do you convey that overarching everything and then
29:38
hit certain demographics separately, but where they need
29:42
to be hit? That seems like it's tricky.
29:43
It's tricky, but it's doable. And I think it depends on how
29:47
different your audiences are. So for a business like yours,
29:50
and we have not talked about this and you know, beyond this
29:53
podcast, so I can't speak to to it too much, But for a business
29:57
like yours, I, I don't think it would be necessary to have
30:00
something on your website that's like for the mother of the bride
30:02
or for the bride, right? I think finding that commonality
30:04
in the feeling and kind of pairing that with what makes you
30:08
different from wedding invitations that they could get
30:10
somewhere else, whether it's the experience, the end product,
30:13
right? All of those things.
30:15
I think it's going to make the most sense to get clear on those
30:18
overarching ideas and then just have points within that that,
30:22
you know, speak to all those different people.
30:24
Sometimes the audiences are much more diverse than that.
30:28
So an example comes to Miami rebranded, a business this
30:32
summer. It's an agency that helps women
30:34
entrepreneurs sell their business.
30:37
So all of their products are about exit readiness, like at,
30:41
at different phases of that process.
30:44
And they're targeting women for different services that are exit
30:48
curious. They're just starting to think
30:49
about it. Women who are ready to sell
30:52
within a year, women who already have a deal on the table and
30:55
they need like true financial and legal support to execute on
30:58
that deal. And women who've already sold
31:01
their business and now they're coming back into a community as
31:04
an exited female founder. So somebody who's already sold
31:08
their business and somebody who's just curious about what it
31:11
takes to sell a business are in 2 very different places.
31:14
So the way we handled it, their headline or the core hook that
31:18
really describes what the business is.
31:20
We say that they're an advisory serving women before, during and
31:24
after their best exits. And then the next thing that
31:28
happens on the website is we put them into 4 buckets.
31:31
Are you curious about what it takes to sell a business?
31:34
Click here. Do you have a deal on the table
31:36
and you need somebody on your side?
31:38
Click here, right? So you can get really specific
31:41
and really lead people down individual paths.
31:45
So they literally click into different parts of your website.
31:48
And then you can make those parts super specific to their
31:52
state of mind, their problems, the solutions, the next steps
31:56
for that group. But you still need some umbrella
31:59
message that makes it makes sense to everybody so that when
32:03
you land on this website, no matter where you are and those 4
32:06
categories, you start by feeling like, OK, I'm in the right place
32:10
now let me just find my way into the information that I need.
32:14
You made it sound so simple, but I think there's a lot of brands
32:16
that struggle with like How do I?
32:19
Segment this message, diversify it, but also keep it whole in
32:22
that you put it in real simple terms.
32:24
I like that. If you know me, you know that I
32:28
believe details are the point. It's why I founded Bell and
32:32
Veto. For more than 20 years, we have
32:34
designed invitations that introduce life's most
32:38
significant occasions, pieces that are held and kept and
32:42
framed, the quiet art of making an impression long before anyone
32:46
enters the room. Today, that same devotion to
32:50
design extends beyond the invitation into a collection of
32:53
pieces created to bring beauty and intention to the way we
32:57
gather, give and live. discovertheworldofbellandvito@bellandvito.com.
33:04
Live beautifully. Since we talked a lot about
33:09
etiquette, social intelligence, you know, since that's a lot of
33:12
what people come to social insecurity looking for brand
33:17
wise, something that I don't hear about a lot and I'm curious
33:20
where you feel like it falls into play.
33:23
Is the culture map within the company, the handbook, how
33:29
people dress, what language you use, like the lexicon.
33:33
You might get this in, you know, a huge company, but I feel like
33:37
this is where small businesses need coaching.
33:41
That doesn't necessarily always come with the marketing or the
33:46
PR or anything. I it was something that I was
33:49
taught by somebody who was just another brand owner really.
33:52
I didn't get it from any of the marketing teams, but talk to me
33:55
a little bit about that. So you've got this beautiful
33:57
website. We've done everything you've
33:59
said. And then an employee shows up
34:01
and answers the door and AT shirt because we didn't think
34:04
through, you know, what it looks like when the back of the house
34:07
is the only person who can answer the front door because
34:09
the front door persons at lunch. I mean, there's this is like a
34:11
real life small business struggles.
34:14
Like how do you suggest people navigate that?
34:16
It's such an underrepresented area of real brand execution.
34:21
Like it does no good to have a strategy document somewhere that
34:26
sits on a shelf and it has all this stuff about the tone of
34:28
voice and language that we use if everybody who represents your
34:32
company doesn't know about it. So I think it is incredibly
34:36
important, like you said, you go through a brand build, which in
34:40
my opinion should always include language first, then design,
34:44
then a digital presence. If you go through those steps
34:47
and it's like, OK, we really have a cohesive experience here
34:51
that represents us. We're incredibly proud of it.
34:54
We're confident it's going to resonate with the buyers we
34:56
want. The full team has to be welcomed
35:00
in to take ownership of that brand experience.
35:03
It's not just the name above the door, it's them.
35:06
It is the way they speak, the way they behave, what they wear.
35:09
If this is an in person business or virtual, I mean, the way we
35:12
show up on Zoom has an impact. So I mean, the way that we
35:16
approach it, we do. I just have these on my desk.
35:18
We do like a hardcover brand book.
35:20
If you're listening, I'm just holding up a book, but it has
35:23
like a ton of detailed direction and how the brand comes to life
35:27
and how it sounds and doing a team training for internal
35:32
employees and also any contracted partners.
35:35
If you have a social media agency, if you have a virtual
35:37
assistant, anybody who's representing your brand online
35:41
or in person should be up to date on exactly what the
35:46
business stands for and how it should look, feel, sound in the
35:50
world. And people should be held
35:51
accountable to that because it really is your reputation in
35:55
tangible form. So I think training people on
35:59
the brand experience is important and I think that can
36:02
be a really fun thing. Hopefully it makes life easier
36:06
for them because they're not guessing on like, well, how do
36:08
you want to introduce things or how do I talk about it?
36:11
If we're at a trade show or what do I say if somebody calls, how
36:14
do I close my emails? Should I have business cards to
36:18
pass out? Like all of those questions are
36:20
answered. They don't have to think on
36:22
their feet as much because we've trained them in exactly how to
36:26
show up and represent. That's, I think, so crucial and
36:29
I feel like it's the missing piece.
36:31
I feel like there's so many companies that, you know, even
36:35
just girlfriends that I have that are entrepreneurs.
36:37
When we all meet up at the end of the day for a happy hour, we
36:40
usually have a complaint at some point.
36:43
That could be like, we wouldn't have the complaint if we had
36:46
gotten ahead of it from this perspective because the walls
36:50
are painted, the signage is perfect, the logo is done, the
36:53
brand book is on the desk. But we don't know why Kristen
36:57
can't figure out how to answer the phone and answer a question.
37:01
Well, it's because no one ever really trained her.
37:03
And I like the way that you put it.
37:05
No one welcomed her in to the conversation and made it
37:09
inclusive instead of directive. Yes, inclusive and hopefully
37:14
exciting. I think it's a great way to get
37:17
people pumped up about working for your type of business
37:19
because you're sharing, not just here's what you need to do when
37:23
you're on the clock. Here's the purpose behind why I
37:25
started this business in the 1st place.
37:27
Here's why I'm so passionate about supporting the people who
37:30
buy from us. And here's why it's a really big
37:32
deal when they do. Like look at what we've had to
37:34
do to get these customers. They're really important to us.
37:38
So I think it can be an emotional attachment for
37:42
employees as well to connect them to the brand, just like
37:45
we're trying to connect potential buyers to the brand.
37:48
I love that it's, I mean, that was just for me.
37:50
That was just a hugely helpful conversation to have as a
37:54
founder LED business. I have a question for you.
37:56
This is something that I have always struggled with.
38:00
I think a lot of founders go through letting somebody else be
38:03
their voice, then they're their own voice on social media or
38:07
emails or whatever else. And then as I have had marketing
38:13
teams come in and I was very behind the scenes, I'm more
38:17
comfortable. Even though I'm doing podcasts
38:19
and all in front of everybody when I'm working, when I'm in my
38:22
design mode, when I'm helping clients, my hair is up, I'm in a
38:26
studio running around and I am more comfortable behind the
38:29
scenes. I used to work some of the
38:30
presses back in the early days and putting myself out as the
38:35
face of the brand was terrifying and annoying.
38:39
And then I was convinced to do it because I was basically told,
38:42
well, that's the way you're going to become successful as
38:44
people want to know the founder when it's a founder LED brand
38:47
and all this kind of stuff. As a business grows, can it
38:51
outgrow that? How important is the founders
38:55
face? And then when does it feel like,
38:57
when does it become a vanity project?
38:59
And how do we talk, Especially somebody else talking about me
39:02
is fine. And then I can do the creative
39:05
director thing and I can kind of objectify even a picture of
39:07
myself and be like, that's doing its job.
39:10
That's not doing its job. But when you have to talk about
39:13
yourself and you have to do it for yourself, for me, it felt
39:17
icky. And I think a lot of people
39:19
either love doing it and they're great at it and they're great
39:21
self promoters and that's awesome.
39:23
I envy those people. And then there's a lot of people
39:25
like me who hate doing it, self promote and feels like I'm not
39:29
doing my job, like I'm distracted by my vanity or
39:31
something. How do we navigate that?
39:34
Do you have? Surely you've worked with both
39:36
types? Yeah, absolutely.
39:38
I think most small business owners start a business because
39:41
they're passionate about what they're doing in that business.
39:44
You are an artist, right? That is the work that you love
39:46
doing. You like working with clients,
39:48
doing these beautiful designs. If you're somebody who starts a
39:50
business as an interior designer, it's because you like
39:52
interior design, not necessarily because you love to talk about
39:55
yourself on Instagram. In the early days of starting a
40:00
small business, I think it is hard to circumvent that founder
40:05
visibility and the reason for that, the bigger reason people
40:09
have to connect to something. We have to have this level of
40:13
human connection. If we know that people are
40:15
making buying decisions in the subconscious that's driven by
40:18
emotions, what are we connecting to?
40:21
If there was just a new shop that popped up on a block and it
40:24
was called Stationary R Us and we had no idea, like who is this
40:29
who? Started it is there work any
40:30
good nothing to that and kind of watch converse with understand
40:36
it's going to be very hard for that business to get roots into
40:41
their community or build a following.
40:43
So there's a lot of advice out there for earlier stage
40:46
businesses that you need that founder presence.
40:50
I don't think it's absolutely necessary, but I think you
40:54
absolutely have to have human connection in some form so you
40:57
can build a beautiful story about the real reasons you got
41:01
into business, a philosophy that makes you different in the
41:04
industry, a unique path to getting into this field.
41:09
Maybe. You know, I've had clients who
41:11
were in the military, then they became a wedding planner.
41:14
Well, how does that happen? You know, like what, how did
41:17
that come up? And are you planning military
41:18
weddings? Like what?
41:19
You know, it just like sparks questions, right?
41:21
It's interesting. So you can craft that in a story
41:24
and that wedding planner could be on Instagram telling the
41:26
story herself over and over again.
41:29
Or you can get that story out there in other ways through
41:33
graphics and storytelling. You could hire other people to
41:35
talk about your story. You could showcase clients.
41:38
So I don't think it is absolutely you have to make
41:42
yourself the center of the show, but you have to figure out some
41:46
way to build a connection with your audience.
41:48
And that is usually the easiest, fastest way to do it.
41:51
Even if you don't, I really like it.
41:54
Now you get to a point where the business grows a little bit
41:56
bigger and you started to hire. You have a team you've scaled
42:01
beyond it really just being the founder in the business.
42:05
That's where I think you have a really sweet opportunity to
42:09
weave all of that personality that you as the founder leaned
42:12
on in the beginning into a bigger brand experience.
42:16
And when I say experience, I mean the positioning, the
42:19
messaging, the words you use to describe the brand, the strategy
42:22
that you used to share it, images you select, like
42:24
everything that we do for clients.
42:27
And that allows it to scale beyond you.
42:30
That is important if you ever want to sell your company, if
42:34
you want to scale to multiple locations, if you're at a point
42:37
where you're never interacting with clients because you have a
42:40
team that handles all execution and you're just up here, not
42:44
just, but you're up here leading the vision and managing and
42:47
leading people. You don't want people to come in
42:49
and say, oh, I, I'm only here to work with Heather because
42:52
they're not going to get to work with Heather.
42:54
So there does come a point where it's actually really strategic
42:58
to build a brand beyond that founder presence.
43:02
But there's so much nuance to this conversation.
43:04
It depends on where you are in business, what industry you're
43:06
in. Are you somebody who really
43:08
wants that personal brand? And deep down you do want that
43:10
recognition? You want to speak on stage.
43:13
There's so many questions to answer on the quote, UN quote,
43:16
right way to do it. It's different for every
43:19
founder. But but the personal connection
43:22
really is what you're saying. You can't really get away from
43:24
that, especially when you're in luxury.
43:25
Yeah, absolutely. We have to have something to
43:28
cling to if we're eventually going to buy.
43:32
Going back to things that work, things that don't work, things
43:35
that are sort of like dead giveaways on a website luxury
43:39
page, are there a couple of things that you would say, hey,
43:43
don't do this, stay away from this?
43:45
I mean are do you have like your top?
43:47
Don'ts. I don't have very many strict
43:51
rules because I think the beauty is in the individual expression.
43:55
So crafting something that's original, I don't think it
43:58
should be formulaic that oh, we always have to have language in
44:02
this spot. Then we always go to an image,
44:04
then we go to bullet points like those types of layout things.
44:08
I don't, I don't want it to be the same from business to
44:10
business. I mean, accessibility matters.
44:14
Like you need to have a certain amount of contrast in your
44:16
colors. The font needs to be readable.
44:18
I think that is something that happens a lot when we think
44:21
luxury. It's like the teeniest, tiniest
44:23
font. I'm almost 40 and I am
44:26
struggling. If we think about the whole
44:28
world of people who we want to read this like it does us no
44:31
good if nobody can read what we're trying to say.
44:33
So that is something that's like a pet peeve of mine, but I don't
44:36
have a list of absolutely not. I think it's better to kind of
44:41
zoom out and think about what you're trying to achieve and
44:44
then plan the layout in the visuals according to that.
44:48
Another question, this is just coming from my own personal need
44:51
to know is you don't know any, You know, we don't have like a
44:55
set size of people's browser windows anymore because people
44:58
are looking at browser windows and all different sizes and
45:01
scale and move. So this above the fold versus
45:05
below the fold, is that still a very important conversation?
45:08
Do you want to see that there's a fold so that you scroll or do
45:12
you want things to be a certain height so that it just is a nice
45:17
clean thing? Is there a psychology there?
45:21
Above the fold still matters a lot.
45:22
That's still like the most critical piece I have seen
45:26
websites. Like you can have a website
45:27
where the homepage itself is kind of just the size of above
45:31
the fold and there's nowhere to scroll.
45:34
I don't recommend that because if we just think about our
45:37
typical consumer behavior, we're used to scrolling.
45:40
That's what we want to do. We want to just like Scroll
45:42
down. That's what we do with our
45:43
computers all day, with our phones all day.
45:46
So it's jarring to feel like, wait, is there more?
45:49
And then we kind of question, is this an error?
45:51
Is it not loading? Is it my browser?
45:53
It can be a really clunky experience.
45:55
So above the fold is still critical.
45:57
It is that 1.2 second moment. Like whatever they see there is
46:02
going to make them decide whether or not to stay.
46:04
And as far as the different browsers, if you're working with
46:06
responsive web design and if you work with any website designer,
46:09
they should do it that way so that it automatically resizes.
46:13
It looks great on any device that should be mandatory for
46:17
any. Website Bill.
46:19
So we have a question on social insecurity.
46:22
You know, social insecurity that we use as 3 words and social
46:26
insecurity. This is the two word question so
46:29
that we can alleviate our social insecurities when we're building
46:33
websites as, as you know, as business owners in your world,
46:36
when you land on a website or when you look at a brand and
46:40
you, you know, whether it's just, however, they're
46:42
presenting themselves visually and you can tell they just, they
46:46
missed the mark. They just, they're trying to be
46:48
luxury, for example, and they just, they missed it.
46:52
What is the tell? What do you see most often?
46:55
Do you have a story that helps illustrate that that as an
46:58
expert, when you see something that's a little off, what is
47:01
that tell? Generic messaging, that is the
47:05
tell. I see it all the time and people
47:07
think as long as they have something that sounds kind of
47:11
creative, kind of ethereal, and they have beautiful design, that
47:16
will be enough to get buyers and it just isn't beautiful design.
47:20
We still have a huge opportunity.
47:22
Like there's a lot of room for growth, I think for a lot of
47:24
founders and getting this luxury aesthetic.
47:27
But there's also a lot of stuff out there that is really pretty
47:30
to look at. So if you can't cut through with
47:33
hyper specific language on what you do, who it's for and why
47:37
it's valuable. The prettiest design in the
47:40
world world will not win buyers. Well, it just it just falls flat
47:44
sounds. It falls flat.
47:45
It's forgettable. And I feel like that's where
47:49
that human connection comes back in because I can't tell you how
47:52
many times I've said, hey, what's a catchy headline?
47:55
And you just look at all 20 AI gives you and you're like, no,
47:59
no, no, that's terrible. You could say that about
48:01
Kleenex, or you could say that about, I don't know, T-shirts or
48:04
tires. Like, I don't know what you're
48:05
talking about. So yeah, that, yeah, that human,
48:09
that human cleverness that I don't think AI is mastered yet,
48:12
I think is really important. Cleverness and clarity, like
48:15
knowing who you are is so key. And that sounds easy, like of
48:20
course we know who we are, but being able to say it in five
48:23
seconds or less becomes a lot more complicated.
48:25
Knowing who we are, knowing what our buyer needs to hear,
48:28
marrying those two pieces and your messaging first above the
48:32
fold to get that capture, but throughout the rest of your
48:35
brand experience and in your marketing channels, that is the
48:39
key. I love that you added.
48:40
Clarity, that was that yes and it's funny because I the first
48:45
thing that came to my mind and my world is attire.
48:48
There's so many people that go of course we know what we mean
48:50
by this chic little clever thing, but it's not clear.
48:53
And when it's not clear, it's confusing.
48:55
And when things are confusing, this is when you lose buyers.
48:59
This is when guests go. I don't know.
49:00
I don't know, it's worth it, you know, something like that.
49:02
So. Totally.
49:03
Interest adds A barrier, right? I got invited to something that
49:06
was like evening disco chic and I was like, how disco are we
49:11
going? Like a costume.
49:13
Are we in a costume? That's the first thing I wear.
49:16
Sunglasses and roller skates. But you said chic.
49:18
So is it just like a nod like a sequin on a dress?
49:22
Like I don't know what to do and then be in like vintage Versace.
49:25
Or am I wearing something from the thrift store with like what
49:30
are we doing? Exactly.
49:32
And if you're, you know, as a party guest, you work through
49:34
it. But if we put that in the lens
49:35
of a potential buyer, they're just gonna opt out because we
49:38
made it confusing. So I love that comparison.
49:41
That's so perfect. OK, so where do we find you in
49:44
your amazing services? Thank you for asking.
49:47
My website is Electric collab.com.
49:50
You can find me on Instagram at Hey Emily Paulson and I'm on
49:53
LinkedIn as well. Hey, Emily Paulson.
49:55
I really enjoyed this, thank you so much.
49:58
Thank you for having me, it's been a pleasure.
50:02
That was Social insecurity with Heather Wiese.
50:06
New episodes drop every Thursday.
50:08
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