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Living With Suspicion: Paranoid High Conflict People · It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People

• Megan Hunter: Welcome to It's All Your Fault on TruStory FM, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most damaging humans, people with high conflict personalities. I'm Megan Hunter, and I'm here with my co-host Bill Eddy. Bill Eddy: Hi, everybody. Megan Hunter: And we're the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California. In today's episode we're going to talk about paranoid high conflict personalities, but first we have a few quick reminders. We want to hear from you. Have you dealt with a high conflict situation? Been blamed? Experienced violence or abuse from an HCP? Or maybe you simply dread seeing that person again, but you probably have to tonight at home or tomorrow at work. Send us your questions and we just might discuss them on the show. You can submit them by clicking the submit-a-question button at our website, HighConflictInstitute.com/podcast, emailing us at Podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or dropping us a note on any of our socials. You can find all the show notes and links at HighConflictInstitute.com/podcast as well. Make sure you subscribe, rate and review and please tell all your friends about us. Telling just one person that you like the show and where they can find it is the best way you can help us out and help more people learn how to address high conflict people. We appreciate you so much. And now on with the show. In this episode, we continue talking about the five types of people who can ruin your life. In the previous three episodes, we talked about narcissistic, antisocial and histrionic HCPs, which is an acronym for high conflict people. In this episode, we are talking about paranoid HCPs. This one has always been a little confusing for people, because the other four types can also appear to have paranoia. And then other mental health disorders may also experience the same. But paranoid personality disorder is a little different. Personally, it took a few years for me to really understand paranoid personality disorder. And it remains to be the one that's sort of the most mysterious for me. So, I guess, we'll just dive right in, Bill, and talk about, what is paranoid personality disorder and the paranoid high conflict personality? Bill Eddy: Yeah. I'm glad you made that distinction, because we want to tell people about personality disorders in terms of the ones who have targets of blame. That's the high conflict personalities, or HCPs, as we often say. And by the way, we say this to understand them, not to say this to a person. Don't tell anybody you think they're an HCP or have a personality disorder, because these personalities are very defensive and that no one likes to be labeled. But you also should understand what you're dealing with. That's why we're doing this whole podcast. So in terms of HCP, they have targets of blame. In terms of paranoid personality disorder, they generally are extra suspicious, that they have exaggerated fears. They see things as more threatening than they are. They see things as much more dangerous than most people see things. They may hear things as personal attacks that are unrelated to them. They go, "I know you're talking about me and I resent it." And you're not talking about them. And so they often start a conflict that wasn't there, because they think there was one there and they get defensive and counter attack. And often that's the problem with paranoid is, because they think someone's out to get them, they initiate a conflict and that's really confusing to people, because they go, "Whoa, I wasn't doing that. And now you're attacking me for doing that." They often see conspiracies. In the workplace they see, "Well, my coworkers are conspiring against me. That's why they're whispering." Well, they're whispering because they know how sensitive the paranoid person is and they don't want to trigger their sensitivity. Or they may say, "I'm not progressing in the workplace. I'm not getting promotions, because other people want to ruin me," when, in fact, it's their own behavior. And so this is the personality that often blames other people for doing what they're doing. In other words, they're creating conflicts that aren't there. And there's some research says that it's paranoid personalities, the personality most likely to sue their employer. So this is one where the workplace runs into trouble and they don't always understand that maybe what's going on here isn't what the person's saying, and that they're exaggerating it because of their personal perceptions. So that's a lot of what that personality's like. Megan Hunter: It brings to mind someone I knew in the past who would come up with some really bizarre statements like, "I know that this particular person doesn't like me, because I saw them in the aisle at the grocery store and just the look on their face. I could tell. I could tell she hates me." And you're thinking, how, what? So would that be an example? Bill Eddy: Yeah. That would be. Now, what's interesting is I also have a similar story of waiting in line at a grocery store and a man punched the woman and knocked a tooth out that was in line behind him, because he thought she was talking about him. Well, he seemed to have schizophrenia. And so schizophrenia often has some paranoid aspects to it. By the way, we rushed her to the dentist and she got her tooth put back in. If you do that within an hour, you can save the tooth. And someone else called the police and had them deal with the guy. So there's a distinction between that kind of extreme paranoia that someone with schizophrenia might have versus someone with a paranoid personality trait who's in touch with reality. And all the personality disorders are in touch with reality, but they put a spin on reality, an exaggeration or all-or-nothing jump to conclusions. And paranoid jumps to the conclusion that people are trying to harm them, who aren't. Megan Hunter: Well, then how do you differentiate between, let's say, schizophrenia, schizotypal with paranoid, other mental disorders and the paranoid personality? Bill Eddy: The thing is, with the personality disorders it's a spin. Whereas, schizophrenia, people really are out of touch with reality. So they may hear voices that aren't there. They may see delusions that aren't there. And what's interesting is I worked with a lot of people with schizophrenia in a psychiatric hospital for several years and they really, generally aren't hostile to other people. That incident I described is actually quite rare. Generally, people with schizophrenia cause themselves much more trouble than anybody else. And it's sad. And, however, schizophrenia, there's medications that have made a huge difference. People are able to work. People are able to have relationships. With personality disorders, we don't have medications for that. It's really more fundamental and how they operate in the world and hard to change. And often they don't, because they don't think they have a problem. Megan Hunter: Right. You mentioned suspicions and I think of that combined with accusations. So with the paranoid personality, maybe that's it, is the suspicious personality combined with the accusations. Would that be accurate? Bill Eddy: Yeah. Well, that'd be the HCPs, the paranoid. So maybe half of these five personality disorders aren't HCPs. They don't focus on targets of blame, but maybe half are. And the paranoid half that are, will sue you for things that didn't happen. Will engage you in public sometimes, that this horrible behavior's happening. And they may be convincing. Again, just like the histrionic personality, the narcissist, the antisocial, they can be very persuasive blamers. It's all your fault. And they convince other people, which can make your life really miserable. That's why we say can ruin your life. But we say can ruin your life. That's not necessarily they're going to ruin your life, but you need to be kind of on notice that there's a possibility here. Megan Hunter: Mm. What are the stats on paranoid personality disorder? Bill Eddy: Well, that big National Institutes of Health study from the early 2000s put it around 4.4% of adults in the U.S. population. So that's a little higher than say, antisocial or histrionic, but not as much as borderline and narcissist. And it's a little more female than male, but not much different. They're within a 60-40 range. So you'll see men like this. You'll see women like this. Megan Hunter: Hmm. I was just thinking about some of the other types that we've talked about. For example, the antisocial personality. You hear the term antisocial and think, "Oh, they're going to present to you with anger and hostility and maybe some terrorizing behaviors." But really, they present with charm in the beginning, not every time, but sometimes. In thinking about the paranoid personality, it doesn't seem like someone who would be suspicious is going to present with charm at first. So do they? And, I guess, if not, what do they present with? Bill Eddy: First of all, some have overlap with the other personalities. So I think of family court case I had, where the man was identified as having paranoid traits in a psychological evaluation about the child, about parenting. But he also seemed to have antisocial traits. So he was very charming when he found his soon-to-be wife and married her. But then the charm went away and the fears and paranoias took over and he became abusive with her. Now, that's not necessarily a frequent paranoid trait, but this person overlapped with an antisocial personality, which often is abusive. Megan Hunter: Interesting. We talked about the five types having fear-driven personalities or, as I like to call it, a fear-wired operating system. What is the fear that drives the paranoid personality, the HCP? Bill Eddy: Well, they really do believe in their fears. And so they think that people are going to betray them, that they can't trust people, especially in close relationships. And so that makes them, in many ways, quite lonely, because the people that're around them get scared away from them, because of their own behavior. If they are in an ongoing relationship, it's often a tense one, because they keep thinking, "Well, I know you're sleeping around on me," or, "I know you're trying to get me fired from my job." So they often lead high-stress lives and can be quite unhappy in their view of the world. Megan Hunter: We talked about, in previous episodes, what the experience is like for the person in a relationship with someone, whether it's at work or at home. So what's it like when you're in a relationship with someone with a paranoid personality? What is that experience like? Is it as exhausting as the histrionic or maybe terrorizing as the antisocial? Bill Eddy: It can be. And again, all of these, there's a real range of severe to less severe. But it's often a walking-on-eggshells experience, that what they find is they're being tracked. There may be surveillance cameras that you don't know about, because they're so suspicious. They can say, "Where were you at 10:03? And where were you at 10:45? And then who were you with at 11:15?" And that can get really stifling and can really become abusive, even though it may not be physical. Megan Hunter: Hmm. That kind of brings to mind the stalker. When you talked about they want to know where you are at 10:15 and where were you at 10:30, would this be the stalker type? Bill Eddy: Could be. Could be. Yes. Let me just say it could be. I think more of antisocial and borderline personalities, more likely to be stalkers than paranoid, but paranoid could be. Megan Hunter: Mm. Are they social? Bill Eddy: They try to be, but they're too suspicious. And what's interesting for therapists, I know therapists have had people with this diagnosis in individual therapy and they want them to be in group to develop more group skills, but they're too paranoid in the group. So usually, they make everybody nervous, because they're so suspicious and quiet, because they don't want to say anything that someone will take advantage of is what their fear is. It's sad. And all of these personalities are sad. I have a lot of empathy for them. But until they learn to change and really work on themselves, the people around them need to be aware of what some of these difficulties are. Megan Hunter: Yeah. And that's why we do what we do, is really helping people understand what drives people that have these high conflict personalities. We never, ever are demeaning toward them. We're talking about a group of people who don't know that they have a kind of a different wiring from others. It's just very normal to them. And so the actions they take and their behaviors seem very natural to them. Based on the feedback we've had for many years is that people don't believe that a person with a high conflict personality doesn't know what they're doing. So what do you think about that? Bill Eddy: I think they really... It's part of who they are. And they aren't really thinking, "Oh, I'm doing something bad or harmful right now." If they're thinking at all about it, they're thinking, "This is what I have to do to protect myself." And especially paranoid personalities, always fearing they're being taken advantage of or going to be harmed. And so it really is. They're was these underlying fears that drive these behaviors. With antisocial, which we talked about before, antisocial lie constantly. And people say, "I know he knows he's lying." Well, yes and no. Many times they say a lie. They know it's a lie. And next thing you know, they're really starting to believe it. And so I think most of the time, most of these folks don't understand their own behavior and don't see that what they're doing is harmful and they believe that it's necessary to do these awful things to defend themselves. Megan Hunter: Yeah. I mean, it's like they're in survival mode. I mean, they are in survival mode, really. And so it feels for them and seems to them, and they wholeheartedly believe this, because it is their operating system, that any bad feeling they have is coming from an external source. It's coming from you. And that's why you get the blame, because they don't connect the dots back to themselves. They just don't have that insight. Bill Eddy: And that's it exactly. They don't connect the dots. All of these folks don't connect the dots and don't believe that they do and they're acting badly on purpose. Think of them as sometimes like a child, who just doesn't see the connections yet and aren't able to. Megan Hunter: So once we understand this fear-driven personality and we accept that they aren't behaving this way on purpose, with intention, it's just part of who they are, it really behooves the rest of us to understand the rules for their operating system. Or as you like to say, Bill, you need the necessary skills to handle and manage those relationships. So what would that look like in the workplace, if you have someone, maybe an employee like this? Bill Eddy: Well, I think building a strong relationship between the manager and the employee so that they have regular positive contact. "You did a good job on that such and such project." Or, "We've got a new policy coming down, so we're all going to need to do such and such a little differently," so that they're not feeling singled out, unless there's something really they've done that they need to be talked to about. But in all cases is to try to be encouraging, even in disciplining, is, "I want you to succeed here, but you do have to come to the office on time." Things like that. Megan Hunter: So give a little sugar first and then kind of the directive, so to speak? Bill Eddy: Yeah. Yeah. So in many ways it's like EAR statements and redirect behavior, empathy and redirect. And talk about policies are the reasons for things so that they don't take it personally, because they automatically take stuff personally if you're not really careful about that. But just say, "This is something we all have to do. It's the policy. It's the policy. It's the policy." Megan Hunter: What was that? Bill Eddy: Yeah. Megan Hunter: So what don't you want to do with this personality type? Bill Eddy: Well, certainly don't publicly criticize them. There's a saying for a lot of managers is public praise, private criticism. And I think that's true in every line of work, but especially for paranoid personality. They just can't take it. They'll feel like they have to get revenge for something like that. And they can hold a grudge. I didn't even mention that. But they can hold a grudge for months or years. Megan Hunter: Oh, the grudge holders. Bill Eddy: Yes. Yes. And so do it privately, if you have to do discipline. And do it with a lot of EAR statements and talk a lot about policies. Megan Hunter: Yeah. The longer I do this, the more I realize you just start everything with an EAR statement and then you can get most of the things done, right? Bill Eddy: I think you're right. And what's great about all these techniques, EAR statements, and BIFF responses, you can use them with anybody and they're positive. So it's a safe bet. Megan Hunter: Yep. So you mentioned revenge. What would that look like? Bill Eddy: Well, they might hide your project from you the day that it's due. In a marriage, they might destroy something important to you. "After what you did to me," that kind of thinking. But they would do it in a way you might not trace it back to them. Megan Hunter: So maybe a little more devious than say, one of the other personality types that's doing it just out of complete rage, out-of-control emotion? Bill Eddy: Possibly. Yeah. But depending, sometimes they overlap with the more impulsive personalities. And so you might get them yelling at you that you betrayed them, and how could you do this, and you're a horrible person. But they might be more sneaky about it, because they don't want to be discovered. Megan Hunter: If you could summarize paranoid high conflict personalities in one word, what would that be? Bill Eddy: Fear. Fear. They're really afraid. They're honestly fearful. If I could have two words, it would be fear of betrayal. Megan Hunter: Fear of betrayal, that's what I was looking for. Fear of betrayal. Interesting. Bill Eddy: Which is hard to live with in a relationship if you're always being questioned and treated- Megan Hunter: Under suspicion. Bill Eddy: Under suspicion. Yeah. Megan Hunter: Wow. And I can imagine in this world of technology now that someone with this type of personality might use technology to track other people, because they are so suspicious. Would that be accurate? Bill Eddy: Absolutely. And with all these personalities, they often do the thing that they're most afraid you're doing to supposedly protect themselves. And so paranoid's a good example that. Paranoid will be surveilling their neighbor, because they think their neighbor's out to get them. And the neighbor's like, "Why has this guy got cameras on me?" And it's like, "Because he's afraid of you." "But, I'm afraid of him now. And maybe I should be." So that's the irony. Paranoid people could become dangerous, because they think you're dangerous. Megan Hunter: Do they draw other people into these conflicts, into their suspicions? Bill Eddy: Yes. They can. And a group of people with a shared paranoia can be very persuasive that there's some incredible danger that doesn't exist, but these people may share it. I think of Jonestown, the cult that went to... I forget what country in the 19- Megan Hunter: South America somewhere, wasn't it, or? Bill Eddy: Yeah, Ghana, I think. Or Guyana. One of those. Megan Hunter: Either Africa or South America. Bill Eddy: Yes. Somewhere south. And Jim Jones was, I believe, antisocial, but also paranoid. And he convinced everybody to take [crosstalk 00:24:27]- Megan Hunter: Drink the Kool-Aid? Bill Eddy: Kool-Aid. Exactly. It really was Kool-Aid. And 900 people died, because of his paranoia. And he convinced some of them to share the paranoia and the ones who didn't agree, ended up getting killed. So it can be a very dangerous thing. And that's, fortunately, it's not as common, but the fear can drive dangerous behavior. And, I guess, that's the thing people need to understand. Megan Hunter: What tips do you have for dealing with someone like this in your life? Bill Eddy: Well, as with all of them, I think EAR statements, calming people, and looking at choices, what we call the CARS method, connect with them with empathy, attention, and respect. Analyze choices. Let's look at what your choices are now, so they get to pick something. Respond to misinformation, and they have a lot of misinformation. So you may want to just say, calmly, "Actually, this and this is what's happening." So they'll say, "Well, I think people are out to get me." And you can say, "Well, that's one theory. But another theory is that such and such happened, because of totally unrelated causes." And then setting limits. That's connecting, analyzing, responding, and setting limits. Megan Hunter: Interesting. Okay. Bill Eddy: Using policies by the way, to set limits. That's our policy here. Don't take it personally. I just have a policy that I can't have that behavior in my office or in my bedroom. Megan Hunter: Mm. Interesting. Yeah. In the workplace, most organizations have policies that they can refer to and that's such a good idea for dealing with any kind of high conflict situation and high conflict person. In the family, it does look a little bit different. So something I've been recommending to people is have a family mission statement or have a marriage mission statement. And in that mission statement you can put those policies, so to speak, without them being called policies, like, "Here's who we are as a family. Here's who we are as a couple. Here's how we treat each other." And then when you're in that, the heat of the moment with this person, who's blaming you, accusing you, being suspicious of you, you can refer back to your family mission statement as the external policy. Bill Eddy: I think that can be a very effective thing to do. And I think some marriage counselors sometimes encourage those kinds of things. It just normalizes things, and also says what's inside and outside the standards of our relationship. Megan Hunter: Good. So if the light bulb just went on for you about this personality type, and you think someone in your life may have a paranoid personality or high conflict personality, it's important to avoid telling them that you think they have this, or that they have high conflict personality or they're paranoid. They won't react well, right, Bill? People don't want to think that they're flawed. They don't see themselves as flawed, because this is very natural. This is their operating system. This is their default. And they don't connect the dots back to their own behaviors. So keep it to yourself. Get educated. And learn the necessary skills, like Bill was talking about, the CARS method, to learn how to manage your relationship with them. In the next episode, we'll talk about the fifth and final of the five personality types. It'll be on borderline high conflict people. You won't want to miss it. It will probably be a little bit longer than this episode. And for now, be sure to look in the show notes for links to all of our books and on-demand courses. Books like, It's All Your Fault, It's All Your Fault at Work, which is particularly beneficial and a lot of insights into high conflict people at work. Of course, the BIFF series and Calming Upset People with EAR, these are just really good resources. In the meantime, be sure to tell all your friends about this podcast. And we wish you all the best in your relationships. It's All Your Fault is a production of TruStory FM. Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins, and Ziv Moran. Find the show, show notes and transcripts at TruStory.fm or highconflictinstitute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows rating and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.