Latest / Content, Briefly / Can you actually get your company posting?

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Can you actually get your company posting? · Content, Briefly

• 0:00
  [upbeat music] This podcast is brought to you by our friends at Wistia. As content marketers, you know this feeling.
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  You spend weeks creating one great, awesome piece of content only to turn around and ask, "Okay, how can I get more out of this?" That's where Wistia comes in.
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• 0:53
  That's less time managing tools, more time creating content people actually wanna watch. Learn more at wistia.com/superpath. That's wistia.com/superpath. Welcome to Content Briefly.
• 1:05
  I'm Alex Hillery, joined today by my content friends Eric Doty, Ruth Rovella, and Superpath founder emeritus Jimmy Daly. So Jimmy wrote a piece recently for us about how to operationalize people following people.
• 1:16
  We'll link that in the show notes.
• 1:18
  Most of you are probably familiar with the concept, but for those of you that aren't or might need a refresher, the idea of people follow people is that personal brands can sometimes be stronger than company brands in building an audience.
• 1:32
  The concept has gained a lot of momentum in the last few years as social media algorithms and AI search prioritizes personal voices.
• 1:40
  Marketers have adapted in several ways, everything from spending on external influencers to funneling more content through founder, CEO, and exec team accounts.
• 1:50
  But today we're gonna talk about another option, employee advocacy, the idea of marketing teams empowering non-executive employees from across the company to share content that's relevant for the target audience.
• 2:02
  Employee advocacy isn't a new concept, but the impact it can have if done really, really well seems to be growing.
• 2:07
  I really enjoyed hearing what Jimmy was up to at Miro and chatting with the rest of the crew about the experience everybody else has had with employee advocacy. Hope you enjoy the episode.
• 2:16
  So this whole idea of people follow people is very top of mind because this is exactly what I'm working on at Miro right now. We're starting with executive content/thought leadership.
• 2:26
  You know, the idea there is that we're putting together, like, a proper resourced program to elevate a handful of people within Miro.
• 2:34
  We're taking the approach that each person should have their own lane, so, like, you know, someone-- like a developer, a product leader, you know, someone from people ops, so that we're, like, kind of touching on the different angles.
• 2:44
  All, I mean, our theme, our broader theme in Miro's case is AI transformation. But there's so many elements of this, from the culture component to the tech stack to the data and privacy and whatever.
• 2:56
  And so these are all things companies are thinking about, and so, like, we wanna be talking about all of these different things. So we're building a content engine to power all of that. It's simple but difficult.
• 3:06
  [chuckles] You know? Like, I guess a lot of work is that way. You know, it's building the content creation part of it is relatively easy. The difficult parts are, like, okay, do we have buy-in?
• 3:15
  Can I get time on this person's calendar? Can I, you know, create content for them, and then they review it and give me the feedback I need in a timely way? How do I actually make sure it gets onto their LinkedIn?
• 3:25
  You know, like, at the moment, I'm trying to connect Claude code to the Buffer API so that I can just, like, send content directly into a queue that they can approve.
• 3:33
  So there's, like, a bunch of, like, little things that are making it somewhat difficult to operationalize. These are not, like, giant hurdles by any means.
• 3:40
  My hope is that this program is the core of what becomes a much larger PFP program.
• 3:46
  I'm probably not gonna call it that, but, like, where anyone at the company is not only incentivized to create and post content but that they have some resources to make it a lot easier.
• 3:56
  Probably not having stuff ghostwritten for them unless they're in the C-suite, but, you know, templates, ideas, brainstorming sessions, Slack channel, contests. Like, what...
• 4:05
  I can imagine, like, a bunch of different things that would help people do this, where the content program, or at least this part of the content program, turns into micro-content to micro-audiences all over the place, hitting on the themes that we wanna hit on.
• 4:17
  So, you know, three months, six months from now, I'm hoping that's where we're at.
• 4:21
  So the idea is that employees are, across the company, are writing their own content guided by you and the Miro marketing team but not ghostwritten by you all, right? So, like, they're kind of creating their...
• 4:36
  It's not-- They're not sharing your stuff. You're not writing for them, but they are writing their own stuff with, like, a few guardrails that you put in place. Exactly.
• 4:45
  So we'll have, say, eight to 10 people who will have content ghostwritten for them, and then I would like to set up kind of a self-serve mechanism for anyone else who wants to do this. Here's what you need.
• 4:55
  Like, here's all of our messaging and positioning. You know, here are some starter ideas. Here's some stuff we've seen perform well that you could draw some inspiration from.
• 5:04
  You know, every Wednesday we have a brainstorming session, so if you wanna, like, talk through some ideas, there's people you could do that with.
• 5:11
  So the idea there will be people are getting resources, and there's something in it for them, right?
• 5:15
  Like, there is definitely an incentive, just an inherent incentive, I think, for people to have visibility and grow a personal brand and be known for their work and that type of thing, and we're gonna ideally put some resources behind that to make it easier for them.
• 5:26
  So that feels like a win-win, you know? And then there's other incentives I imagine we'll put into it later, but that's kind of the gist of it.
• 5:32
  I've done that on a smaller scale, probably with, like, a go-to-market team of 50 people, and in my experience, Jimmy, it's the same thing of it comes down to a really big change management issue of how do I get them into, like, into buying in that this is, this is for you, right?
• 5:51
  Like, this is to grow your network. This is to grow your LinkedIn profile. This is to show off your work, and this is about you, not about-...
• 6:02
  the organization or to just promote more content from me that I want you to post. But, like, in my experience, it was really hard to get people over the hurdle of, "But I'm not a writer.
• 6:15
  People don't care about what I have to say," and all this stuff. So do you have a plan for that yet? Or have you begun to face that in your, in what you're building right now at Miro? Yeah, that's a great point.
• 6:28
  I feel like, a few thoughts. I think you're 100% right, and, like, we haven't hit that yet, but I expect that we will.
• 6:33
  One is that I think part of it is that you cannot engineer authenticity, so you just have to be authentic. So the company really can't say, "Okay, we really would like you to post these things." [laughs] You know?
• 6:44
  It's more like, I think a different pitch to a team would be like, "Writing is an amazing way to gain clarity on your own thoughts." You know?
• 6:51
  Like, we want a culture where people are, like, thinking very deeply and analyzing the way that they work.
• 6:58
  And if you're gonna bother, you know, using writing as a tool for that, like, publishing it is a great way to, like, share what you're working on, like, gain some credibility in that space.
• 7:08
  Like, attach your name to a certain type of work, that sort of thing. I think the other thing I think is that Claude helps a whole lot. [laughs] You know?
• 7:15
  Like, one thing that we're seeing, I mean, I'm sure this is happening everywhere, but, like, it's the first time in a long time I've worked at a large company, and the first time since we've had AI, is that everybody in the company is creating Claude skills.
• 7:27
  And there's this push right now to figure out, like, what do we do with all of them so that they can be shared amongst the team?
• 7:33
  So that if I wanna create a LinkedIn thought leadership writing Claude skill, that it doesn't just live on my Claude account, but could be shared with other people who wanna do it, too.
• 7:43
  And so, like, that could be a prompt that, like, you know, poses questions first to get the thinking going, and then walks you through, like, LinkedIn best practices and blah, blah, blah.
• 7:53
  But, like, if somebody creates it, it will soon be pretty easy to make that available to everyone.
• 7:58
  And I imagine that AI, at least as a sort of a catalyst/sparring partner, will be a really useful way to get people up and running. T- I mean, that's a hypothesis. We'll see.
• 8:12
  You're answering a question that I've been thinking a lot about in terms of, like, what is my role in this?
• 8:17
  Because when you wrote this blog post about, like, people and how authenticity's the most important thing, I was thinking, like, okay, so I think the ideal scenario is that each person is their own, like, authentic creator, and they would go out and do this on their own, and they'll post whatever they wanna post, and that will be the best possible content.
• 8:35
  Like, maybe. And so my question was, okay, but as the content marketer, like, what is my job?
• 8:41
  And so I don't think any company has 50 of those people, the, like, born creators who are, like, ready to go, unless you're specifically hiring for that.
• 8:50
  Like, I'm gonna make sure that when I hire a head of sales, that they're also amazing at LinkedIn, and, like, there are companies that do that. But I think- Yeah...
• 8:57
  the more typical case is you have, like, a lot of smart people who are not... They're very good at their jobs, but they're not content native people.
• 9:06
  And so I think what you're describing is, like, the role of the content marketer, is like, how do I enable really smart people to also become really smart content people? Yes. 100%, yes. And I...
• 9:17
  When I think about this, there is, like, a little bit of tension, I think, involved in, like, kind of adding a thing to someone's workload that is not in their area of expertise. You know?
• 9:27
  Like, if you do anything besides content, and writing, you know, public content is not, like, part of your role, like, I can understand why you're like, "Why do I need to do this again?"
• 9:36
  Or, "Do I really wanna do this in addition to everything else I already have going on?"
• 9:40
  Again, I think it's sort of part of the culture of, like, gaining clarity on how we work is a really good way to actually work better. It's like a way of sharpening the saw, you know? Like, I actually...
• 9:49
  I think back to Intercom did this in probably, like, 2015, and their version of it was to hire 10 editors led by a guy named Geoffrey Keating, who I interviewed, like, a million years ago for a blog post about how their content team functioned.
• 10:05
  And the fascinating thing was that all of them were facilitating content that was from a subject matter expert that didn't wanna write.
• 10:13
  I think that AI solved so much of what they were doing 10 years ago that I don't think you need 10 people to be ghostwriting for, you know...
• 10:22
  They, I mean, Intercom probably had 25 different voices on the blog, something like that.
• 10:26
  So I feel like nailing the incentives, and I sort of described, like, what I imagine some of those would be, is, like, really, really important.
• 10:32
  Because, like, we can make the execution part so much easier now, but the part where, like, people are actually, like, bought into this idea and wanna do it, and will do it regularly and all of that, like, that's a problem that I don't think technology can solve.
• 10:43
  I, I do think it's really interesting, like, the role that AI plays in helping out with that.
• 10:48
  Like, I'm thinking back to my own experiences, maybe five or six years back, with pretty traditional, like, employee advocacy that was kind of, you know, we had the software that, sit around, here's the blog post we put out this week.
• 11:01
  Like, please share on Link- and add a few thoughts to it.
• 11:04
  And just, like, the lack of comfort a lot of people had in just writing stuff at all, and wanting help with that, versus I wonder how much confidence has been instilled with just, like, oh, I can just throw it in.
• 11:15
  I mean, the flip side of that is you get very bad quality writing from people, but I do think it helps overcome the, like, blank canvas problem from, like, a salesperson's perspective, that they've got maybe 10 minutes between calls, and they wanna share something, but they're not really confident in their writing.
• 11:31
  So they're just gonna, like, re-share the post, and it's not gonna do anything 'cause they didn't add any context to it, and... Yeah, yeah. Well, the AI is, to me, like, fascinating, this use case.
• 11:40
  Like, someone internally built... They kinda, like, vibe coded up a tool that will, it will roast your LinkedIn. It, and it's really funny.
• 11:47
  And so, like, at first it was just, like, roasting people's public stuff, and then he, like, he changed it so that you could send it drafts, and it will roast your draft before you post it, so that you can, like, decide if you wanna make changes on it.
• 11:59
  And it was really funny, and I think that got a lot of people really interested in it, actually.
• 12:04
  Because it sort of, like, helped all of us acknowledge, like, there is, like, a bit of cringe- When you're, like, going hard on LinkedIn, and, like, it's, like, we can sort of, like, laugh about it, you know?
• 12:12
  And, like, this sort of brings people together on this topic. There's, like, one, like, tiny little example about... I mean, this person was not a developer.
• 12:18
  They spun this tool up in an hour or two, you know, and it, like, has been a, a catalyst for, like, conversation about this.
• 12:24
  There is a dedicated Slack channel now, and people are constantly roasting each other, and it's, like, a fun thing, you know?
• 12:30
  But, you know, the other thing I was thinking about, about this, a question for everybody here is, like, do you, over the course of your career, has posting wherever you post, blogs, your own blog, a company blog, LinkedIn, Twitter, wherever else, has it been an accelerant to your career?
• 12:46
  Like, I would say yes, like, in a huge way, and I'm curious if you guys feel the same way. Yes, I would agree. Just in either connections and growing my network or in, you know, knowing you guys.
• 12:58
  I don't think I would know you guys without [laughs] without, you know, without posting on LinkedIn or being willing to share my thoughts and be like, "Hi, what's your name? What do you think about this?
• 13:12
  Let's chat about this." And if you're not posting online, how are you supposed to have conversations like that? So I definitely think so for my personal career.
• 13:21
  I'm still not sure how much net positive it's had for the companies I work for- [laughs]... like, to be completely honest with you, right?
• 13:28
  Like, my salary has, like, doubled or tripled since I started doing LinkedIn and Superpath and all these things, and, like, you know, I've become a more, like, known commodity. I'm gonna capture that quote. Like- Yeah.
• 13:38
  Yeah. It's true, though. Like, I think you can go back to maybe the very first time I was on the Superpath podcast as a guest, I think it was, like, episode three, and you were like, "Oh, so you're posting on LinkedIn.
• 13:48
  Like, that's pretty crazy." [laughs] Like, it must be weird to, like, have an audience suddenly, and, like, that's literally how it all started, so yes. Mm-hmm.
• 13:55
  So I think the company side is, like, how do you capture that magic in a bottle? And this is actually a question I was gonna ask you guys, so it's a great transition.
• 14:04
  Like, it's very easy when you're a marketer at a company that sells to marketers, and, like, you are doing the thing that you're selling. I'm at a position at Dock where, like, we actually don't have our ICP in-house.
• 14:17
  Like, we don't... We're selling to a different kind of company than we are. We don't have a sales enablement leader in-house.
• 14:23
  So, like, it makes sense for our CEO to say, like, "Here's what I think about the future of sales enablement," but we don't have a practitioner in-house that's like, "Here's what I do every day for sales enablement with a 200-person sales squad."
• 14:35
  And so, and, like, whenever I've seen this done well, it's, like, the video marketer at video company. It's the, you know, you think of Ahrefs.
• 14:44
  It's, like, our SEO people are writing about SEO, and it's very much like the person exists in-house. So do you think this can also be a good strategy, like, across the board?
• 14:54
  Like, could Dock's developers have, like, a developer blog that means anything? Like, will that actually benefit the company? Will it just benefit those developers?
• 15:02
  Like, and I think Jimmy, too, like Miro is a company where you're selling this, like, idea of remote w- work and culture and collaboration and all these other things that, like, I think it makes sense to do this sort of building in public content.
• 15:15
  So I'm curious if it's a fit for all companies. That was a really big question, but what do you guys think? Yeah. In the HR world, this was, like, a very quick thing that got picked up on.
• 15:26
  Like, in the early days, when I'm saying early days of LinkedIn, the early days of, like, LinkedIn thought leadership, so, like, five years ago, a lot of the companies that were doing the best marketing were the ones that turned their own internal HR people into, like, half HR and half marketing and just, like, turned on this, like, hose of, like, thought leadership over LinkedIn, and it was really, really impressive to see.
• 15:51
  I think it fully depends on the product that the company is selling. Like, for example, you know, to your point, Alex, yeah, you can do that in HR and have your person be an HR marketing person, right?
• 16:05
  I recently worked in weather, and boy, was that difficult. [laughs] Because everyone deals with weather. So who are you talking to, and what specifically are you talking about and to who, right?
• 16:22
  It was like the world of content was our oyster, truthfully. Mm-hmm. And we had to be very strategic about what exactly we were going to be talking about on our specific social channels.
• 16:34
  But at the end of the day, what this company had was, okay, we have...
• 16:39
  We're talking about space, we're talking about weather, and we're talking about how they come together to transform operations for our very specific verticals that we're targeting.
• 16:50
  So we focused on, let's talk about the science behind this. Let's talk about the really cool space stuff that nobody else can talk about.
• 17:00
  And then let's grow the founder pages alongside the company pages in a way that captures attention and also is talking about the company, but is more so educating us, right?
• 17:17
  So I think there's a way to do it without really using people as, like, what's the word? I don't know.
• 17:24
  I feel like it's done so differently when you are marketing to marketers or when you're selling to sellers versus, "I need to educate you about weather and science. Follow me to learn more, and then if you want to,
• 17:37
  down the line, talk to somebody who's an expert in this field, I know somebody who's your guy." Like, that's the goal, and I don't know very many marketers who deal with that, for example. [laughs] That's much tougher.
• 17:52
  I do think, like, I think Miro is, like, the example of a perfect company for this type of thing because it's very horizontal. There's tons of different use cases.
• 17:59
  Anyone at Miro could talk about any work they do, and it could, in theory, be done in the product that we are selling. I also think that-
• 18:07
  Like I think of like a company's marketing efforts, I think of the people buying the product, and then in between those is like this big gray box where like a million things happen that you'll never really fully understand.
• 18:16
  And I think that there are connections probably made in there because someone wrote a thing or liked a thing or reposted a thing that like finds its way into someone's feed that, in a way that you might not anticipate, that can still be influential.
• 18:29
  That said, I think I probably, like depending on the type of company you with, like this makes more or less sense. And then I think also one other just like...
• 18:37
  I think one other thing I think is worth clarifying is like when I think of people follow people, I think of at least three subcategories. We're talking about employee advocacy primarily.
• 18:46
  There's others too, like Ramp is an example of they basically bought an influencer.
• 18:52
  That's like a crude way to put it, but they have a single individual running a substack that is a very narrow lane, and that person has resources, but also is like free of the red tape of the rest of the marketing organization, which means their content can be effective because it's not part of marketing.
• 19:09
  And then there's a third subcategory of executive content programs.
• 19:14
  And I think they're all very related 'cause like all like trying to find different ways to engage an audience that you wanna engage with by putting the people in front of the brand. So this is just one of them.
• 19:25
  So like I could imagine, like Ruth in that scenario, like employee advocacy is a lot, a lot, a lot tougher than it would be at a company like Miro. And then I think the other two could still apply.
• 19:34
  Do you have examples of the other two that you think are working outside of like Ramp? Of Ramp? So part of the struggle I had with writing this article is that no, I could not find a lot of examples.
• 19:44
  Carna and Peter Walker are like the same concept as Ramp. Like, it's the same sort of structure where they've got this like internal data person who's sharing this out.
• 19:53
  Like for example, are you guys following Zapier and their team and how crazy they're going [laughs] with all of their...
• 20:02
  With everything that they post, which is around the product, but is also like, "Look what we're building, and look how we do things at the company, and look how we're growing.
• 20:13
  [laughs] And also look how we're growing our advocacy program in public." [laughs] Zapier falls into that same bucket though, of a type of product that appeals.
• 20:23
  They're like, they can use their own product for like every function of the business, and in theory, they can sell to like every type of persona.
• 20:30
  So it like fits into that same category as like you can have an HR person highlighting stuff, you can have a product person highlighting stuff. Like that's- I mean-...
• 20:40
  in my mind, very similar to like the Miro situation that maybe if you are selling to a very specific vertical, it doesn't translate quite as well. Yeah. I was thinking Clay as well, or- Yeah... like Notion even.
• 20:52
  They've gotten more into the people, like the internal influencers, if you wanna call them that lately.
• 20:57
  What's interesting to me though about like Zapier and Clay and those companies is like, don't hate me people of those companies, but like I still think of the brand before I think of the people, right?
• 21:07
  Like, I'm like, "Oh, this person is at Clay, and they're sharing what they're working on." Like, I see that and like that's like a legitimacy signal to me that makes me pay attention.
• 21:16
  I think there's also the other way around where it's like very interesting individual brings attention to the company, or it's like they're just sharing such interesting things that it like pulls you in.
• 21:26
  And not to say that... I think there's like a give and take between the company brand and the personal brand.
• 21:33
  And so I think the, the people follow people theory is good, but I also think like the brand attached to that person carries so much weight.
• 21:40
  Like, you know, you see, oh, this person works at HubSpot, and you go, "Oh, okay," like that's a legitimacy signal. I'll pay attention to them.
• 21:47
  So there is still like a company brand thing at play, even if they're not like the distribution channel.
• 21:53
  So I definitely think like people are the distribution channel now, but there's something like more interesting at the interplay between person and company that like muddies the waters a little bit here.
• 22:04
  That's interesting.
• 22:05
  I do feel like one really huge challenge to this, I think, is when people are good at this inside a company, often they leave because they're more powerful on their own than they are within the business. You know?
• 22:16
  Like, I can think of a couple of examples, like Heike Young is an example, who we had on this podcast to talk about everything, kind of the creator type work she was doing on LinkedIn. Like, she left Microsoft.
• 22:26
  Like, Microsoft is a really... I mean, I think a lot of people would be really pumped to work at Microsoft. And that's a strong signal that like this is going well for her. [laughs] You know what I mean?
• 22:35
  That she's more powerful now outside of Microsoft. Could probably sell the attention back to them now for more money than they paid her.
• 22:42
  I mean, I don't really know that for a fact, but like you definitely see this trend.
• 22:46
  I do wonder, can you do this without having a couple of your kinda like superstar creator types leave, or will the trend reverse at some point, and like that the creator market is saturated enough that there's not room for everybody who's good at it to wanna go out on their own or not?
• 23:02
  And that's thinking down the road a little bit. I think that's a really real issue, and I wrote about this on LinkedIn as we were exploring this topic last week.
• 23:10
  And in a past job that I had, I ran into this problem where I was trying to prop up some people within the company that were not executives, that I was like, "Hey, they're really interested."
• 23:21
  You know, somebody on the sales team, somebody on the product team. Like, can I make a little group, and can we help them like build up their profile?
• 23:27
  And the pushback I got at the time was that, "Hey, we don't wanna prop up people that we aren't sure are gonna be here for the long haul," right?
• 23:36
  And so like better to focus our attention on, you know, the executive team and people that we think will be here and like won't, you know, potentially ditch us in a year and a half for a competitor and then take the audience we built for them with them, which, you know, I think i- in some ways, that's like, okay, well, you know, you gotta recognize that like there is some risk in this, but like there is still like a lot of value to the company potentially in doing this very well.
• 24:02
  I do think these days though, there's a lot more awareness of the power of having an audience and what that can bring to you, and I would be a lot more wary I think, especially like in 2026, if I'm propping up somebody and they're building a really big audience.
• 24:18
  I've started to see a lot more of those people turn independent and say, "Hey, why am I doing it for this brand? I could create my own whole business off of this." I think that comes out of also the-...
• 24:27
  state that we're in where people aren't trusting their employers.
• 24:30
  They think they might get laid off at any given moment, and so the second they're like, "I have leverage, I have this audience," they're gonna run and build their own thing right now. I don't think that's, like, untrue.
• 24:40
  I think that is definitely true. I also think, I think it was Rachel who left this feedback in my draft for this article. Rachel, by the way, leaves very good feedback, but I get nervous sometimes to open the doc.
• 24:52
  [laughs] Lots of devil emoji. [laughs] It's awesome. But I think she was the one who said, like, "Isn't all marketing fickle to some degree?" You know, like, you're constantly building on someone else's platform. Like,
• 25:05
  you can build up an amazing brand presence on LinkedIn, and they can change an algorithm and see you later.
• 25:10
  Or, you know, the Google being, like, probably the biggest one right now, like, everyone, seems like everyone, has, like, lost a big old chunk of organic traffic. So it's kinda like,
• 25:20
  I think the tricky thing about this is there's, like, a follower number attached to it, so, like, if you invest in an employee and they get 10,000 followers and then they leave, they keep the followers, which is, like, a very, like, concrete way of saying, "Oh, but we helped them get that."
• 25:33
  Whereas, like, if you invest a lot in SEO and your organic search declines over time, it's not like someone else has it.
• 25:41
  Or I guess maybe in some cases they do, but it doesn't feel as sort of, like, sensitive as, like, but now they have the thing. This person has the thing that we helped them get.
• 25:50
  But I think that's why I like the way you're going about it, Jimmy, and also why, like, I try to go about it this way too, right? Mm-hmm.
• 25:56
  Like, let me give you the resources to teach you how to write better, to teach you how to create better content for LinkedIn, and then you can go and create content yourself.
• 26:07
  Rather than, here's a whole bunch of content for you to repost, put your own narrative on it, and then, you know, have it only be company-led.
• 26:17
  Because I think when you direct it as, "Hey, we want you to post a whole bunch of content, and it can only be about the company, and that's your only perspective," then, yeah, I'm gonna be a little annoyed [laughs] if I build your network, if I build your audience, and then you leave with it, right?
• 26:33
  But if I am teaching you this is the impact of growing your network with the value of it, you know, how much it would cost us to do this if we were to pay for it versus what it would look like if you were to build this on your own.
• 26:47
  Here's what a good post looks like versus what a bad one looks like. Here's some skills that we can use in this process. Go have at it, you know?
• 26:57
  Test some stuff out, and then we can all talk about it and learn from each other. I would definitely put my money, like, in the executive bin first. I think, like, that's just the easy...
• 27:06
  I mean, we're saying this anyway, that, like, okay, you start with your executives, then what? I think there's also certain flavors of, like, internal creator.
• 27:14
  There's the ones who are, like, the influencer type who are, like, built for this, and they're, like, they're the ones that I would be kinda worried about, and I wouldn't be as worried about internal subject matter expert that you're platforming in the way that, like, Jimmy, you've described it, I think.
• 27:29
  But I think it's not that hard to tell the difference between those types of people, and, like, I've seen, like, junior employees at very big companies sorta do this where they, like, piggyback off the brand, and they're like, "I'm the top AE at this company."
• 27:44
  And you're like, "Well, yeah, 'cause, you know, you're selling Salesforce," or, you know, whatever it is. Like, yeah, of course you're successful- [laughs]... 'cause it's a really, like, viral, big product.
• 27:52
  And then they build themselves off that brand, and then they go and take that audience elsewhere. And, like, I don't think that's malicious necessarily, and I think there's still some mutual benefit.
• 28:01
  But I- I've definitely seen, like, I would be more worried in that world than, like, if I were Salesforce than if I were, like, you know, fledgling startup with nothing to lose, where it's like you've got 10 employees.
• 28:12
  Like, make as much noise as possible with the 10 of you. Like, so there's more to gain, I think, that way. For every hundred people within a company, I bet there's one or two- Jimmy or mute...
• 28:22
  who fit the bill of what you just described. Like, I think it's, like, it's such an outlier and probably was gonna happen anyways. [laughs] You know, like- Yeah...
• 28:30
  that person probably doesn't need you to provide them with templates and a Slack. Like, you know what I mean? They're...
• 28:34
  Some people are just, they like it, they're good at it, they're motivated by it, they're probably gonna do it anyways. The irony is, like, too, is the people with the most to say have the least time to say it.
• 28:46
  So I've found, like, some of these, like, so the executives in your company are the ones that, like, you really have to, like, to help and enable them, and th- they're not going anywhere, but there's the internal effort there.
• 28:57
  And then, yeah, the, like, the junior employee type who's just, like, creator native and can go out there and, like, virally build an audience, like, I don't think you actually even have to invest that much time in that person, because they can kind of...
• 29:08
  They're the one in 100 person who can do it themselves, and there's very, like, investment from you as the brand in that. Maybe where I differ from y'all is, like, if I were to start this from scratch, I would...
• 29:19
  I think I'd build a team of internal influencers with, like, all very specific objectives and, like, at least give them half their job is to do this kind of internal influencing stuff.
• 29:30
  Because, like, the more we talk about it, the more I'm like, okay, the junior people who are doing this on the side, like, they're working, you know, they're at a startup, they're working 50 hours a week, and then they're deciding to dedicate an extra 10 hours to doing this stuff that's outside the purview of their job.
• 29:46
  Like, I would think those are the people that are more likely to leave, because, like, why, why are they doing this? Like, they've got some other objective. Like, I'd rather define...
• 29:55
  And the challenge with executives and with other people at the company is just, like, they're too busy doing their job, which already has, like, way too many things to do, especially at a startup, and so they can't dedicate, like, enough time to it.
• 30:08
  So I think if I were building this, I would craft internal influencer roles and carve out time and say, like, "This is part of your job," which is what I did see with a few of the, like, HR people I worked with, where, like, truly, like, you look at their actual job description, and it was half doing the job and half doing marketing.
• 30:26
  And I'd create a whole lot more roles like that. I think that's... Because-
• 30:30
  Then it kind of bridges the gap of, like, it's not somebody who's motivated to build their audience because they're thinking about the next thing, and it's not somebody who's, like, too busy with the actual job to do the marketing stuff well.
• 30:42
  When I've done this in the past, that's like just kinda like one of the challenges that I dealt with is, like, you end up... I feel like you end up having people who are like, "Well, I don't have time to do this.
• 30:55
  Like, help me do this." And then you find ways to help them do it so much that you end up just ghostwriting for them.
• 31:03
  [laughs] And then, and you prioritize ghostwriting for the executive team versus teaching everybody else how to write for themselves, right? And then now you are writing for the company, and then you are...
• 31:16
  And all of your channels, and writing for your four executives and all of their channels, and making sure that it's going through reviews, and that they're happy, and that everything is there, right?
• 31:29
  So I think it's just one of the things that you end up having to deal with, and again, a change management of, hey, is this worth it for you, and how do we create a process [laughs] where I'm not writing all your content?
• 31:41
  Or if I am, we have a really easy way that this is content that is still in part being created by you, AKA, let's record a 30-minute conversation at least once a week.
• 31:50
  [laughs] To me, this has to be a, like a top-down, full company buy-in thing from square one. Like, all, every time we're listing companies that do this well, like Buffer's a great example.
• 32:01
  Since they were founded 15 years ago, had, like, we're gonna build in public as our content strategy from day one.
• 32:08
  And, like, people are being hired knowing this, and so I think you're absolutely right, Alex, in that, like, it has to be... I don't think... It's very hard to implement this after the fact, I think.
• 32:19
  I think you [laughs] have to either, like, start your company with this is how we're gonna do it, or your founder has to say, "Everyone we're gonna hire at this company is gonna be a creator," or, you know, all the executive roles also have to post.
• 32:32
  Like, I think it, it's very hard to implement after the fact. Am I wrong, or do you guys agree? [laughs] No, I agree. [laughs] Because it's, I mean, it's like anything that requires change management, right?
• 32:43
  Like, implementing AI, implementing a new process. It has to come from the top down, and if you aren't seeing your executive team doing, then what incentive do I have to do it, or to get everybody else to do it?
• 32:54
  Or to then prove ROI from it? [laughs] I think you're totally right. Leading by example I think is super important.
• 33:00
  And Eric, the only reason I partially agree is that as I was doing research for this article, I found, I was trying to find examples of people and teams within companies that write about their function outside of the company's typical marketing, and I found tons of engineering blogs.
• 33:19
  This is, like, a phenomenon, I think, of like, why are engineers writing engineer... Like, Airbnb has an engineering blog. Yeah, and they've always done it. Like, engineers are... Yeah, but like, it's still going.
• 33:29
  And like, I found lots of examples of this, of like, people who are, you don't think of as writers or marketers writing about the work that they are doing.
• 33:38
  And, like, but I couldn't find any design blogs or product blogs or sales blogs that are separate from the company's marketing.
• 33:46
  And I found that to be very interesting, and I feel like at least one reason I think that is true in engineering is that people are solving, like, really hard problems.
• 33:52
  Like, a company like Airbnb is dealing with a scale that most don't, so they're solving, like, novel problems, and the engineering blog is, like, a way for people to kinda get a little bit of credit for the work that they did, which if they didn't publicize it, maybe no one knows outside of like, the, you know, the team that they work on.
• 34:13
  Might also be, like, an employer branding thing sometimes. Like, you're trying to attract developers. Yeah. But I think it's- Very much... normally the, the buy-in is still from the developers.
• 34:23
  Like, they're doing it just 'cause they're interested in it and... Totally, but that's, like, a bottoms-up- Like, yeah... version of it. You know what I mean? Like, that sort of happens somewhat organically.
• 34:32
  Like, I can't imagine someone from the top saying, like, "The engineers need to write..." Maybe they are because of their, like, we have to hire more engineers, so, like, this is a great way to appeal to them.
• 34:40
  But I do generally agree that, like, if the founder or the early employees are not prolific content creators, then it's a lot harder later on to do it without a top-down initiative. Yeah.
• 34:50
  And also just culturally, like, that this is like, this is set, we all do this.
• 34:55
  I just, I keep on thinking to, like, the time you spend and, like, asking the one salesperson to do this, when at their performance review what's gonna come up is, like, "How many deals did you close?"
• 35:06
  And they're not gonna be able to say, like, "Oh, but I spent 20 of m- percent of my time- Yeah... supporting the marketing team doing this," right?
• 35:11
  Like, if the whole team's not doing it, if it's not in the job description... This comes up in, in, like, in the HR world all the time.
• 35:18
  Like, we talked about the same thing with, with ERGs, like, employee resource groups. Like, you gotta put it into the d- job description. You gotta pay for it separately.
• 35:25
  You've gotta, like, create the space for that to happen, or else you encounter this problem where you're just, like, saying, "Hey, please do this free work on top of your regular work that you're expected to do the same thing as your peer that's not doing this other whole thing on top of it."
• 35:39
  So I just believe in, like, you either have to, like, culturally instill it that everybody's doing it, or have these, like, predefined jobs that, like, this is in the job description.
• 35:47
  You're going to be, your performance review's like, this is gonna come up because it's part of the job. It's not, like, an extra credit thing. Yeah. And I think getting it across the broader team is what's harder.
• 35:58
  'Cause like, yeah, I'm happy to sign up for a job or to add to a job description when I'm hiring someone, you know, advocacy is part of this role, but how do you do that for a sales team?
• 36:09
  Or your, like, you know, your customer success team and everyone else that you're partnered with as the marketer, and ensure that like, okay, well, does everyone who is getting hired know that they are going to be doing this as part of their role?
• 36:21
  Because this is what I'm running, and this is part of my job. That's the challe- [laughs] That's like, that's another challenge. [laughs] Is it possible to do this without, like, a scoreboard?
• 36:31
  Or, like, does it, do you need, like, a spreadsheet that says everyone posted this number of times? Like, Jimmy, what are you doing at Miro? Or is it like... That's, I think Buffer's team does that, yeah.
• 36:41
  I think you need something, yeah. Oh, no. Well, I was gonna say, yeah, I haven't gotten that far, but I agree, Ruth- Okay... you have to have- Yeah... something. Like, I hesitate... Like, you know, now you see...
• 36:51
  Actually, the first time I saw this was from Zapier, actually, that they're like, "Oh, here's our new AI fluency matrix, and we're making sure that, like, your fluency is part of your performance review."
• 37:01
  And I was like, "Ugh, I don't like that." [laughs] Like, you know what I mean? And I could imagine people having the same reaction to being told like, "Oh, we're gonna be...
• 37:10
  You know, you have to do your job, and you have to write a lot about how you do your job, and we're gonna kinda grade you on that, too." I can see people being like, "Ugh, I don't know. I don't like that."
• 37:16
  I think it just, to the point of like you can't engineer authenticity, it's like I think the top-down message is, like, the benefit of you doing this is that you will sharpen the saw, you will sort of gain clarity through the process of doing it, you'll gain visibility and claim some credit for the work that you're doing, and, like, this is gonna be good for your career, and is it good for us, too?
• 37:37
  Yes, it is, and that's, so, like, that's part of why we're gonna, like, help you make it happen.
• 37:40
  But I think it has to, like, feel good in order for anyone to have e- even, like, any interest at all in actually participating.
• 37:48
  And then as people do participate, I feel like if 20% of the company did, that's like a huge win. Like, I'm not expecting that every single person does this. Yeah.
• 37:56
  When I did this, Eric, it was with a tool that had a ga- like, that had gamification built in.
• 38:03
  So there was already a scoreboard, and, like, Jimmy, if you're looking for something, there's a tool called GaggleAMP, big, big fan of that, if you don't wanna, like, completely replace your entire social platform, because I was using a different tool that, like, had advocacy built in.
• 38:18
  But I added a tool called GaggleAMP on top of it, and a big piece of it was literally just I need to get more eyes on our content, like, on the actual company content.
• 38:31
  And what is the most important window in the algorithm, right? It's, like, that first hour, or at least it was [laughs] back, I don't know, a year or two ago. Exactly, right? So that's at least what I was running on.
• 38:45
  Okay, I need to get people to this post in the first hour, and I can't do that right now. So can I build out a system, can I get a tool that sends everyone a notification on Slack, and boom, you get 10 points.
• 39:00
  And at the end of the month, if you've liked enough points, or if you've liked enough posts, then you get added to the system where I send you kudos, and those kudos turn into swag or company gift cards.
• 39:13
  And, like, that worked for a few months for me to adopt a system and actually see impressions go up, right? And now I'm like, "Hey, guys, great, you guys have liked things. Can I get you to share?
• 39:25
  Can I get you to actually post your own content? Can I get you to write your own stuff, because a lot of you have interesting thoughts?"
• 39:33
  And then I was just kind of growing the motion from there, but the entire time having a game board where I could take a screenshot and be like, "Hey, guys, look who's at the top of it. It's Sean with this many points.
• 39:47
  If you wanna catch up, remember, this is what you need to be doing."
• 39:51
  And then that way it was reminding them, incentivizing, and trying to build up a little program, which in the end did end up having a really big impact. That's awesome. I love the idea of just building the momentum. Yes.
• 40:06
  A- a- you know, and like- And how we all know LinkedIn is very much about consistency. Yes. And people love free stuff. That's the lesson here. Yeah, exactly. People love free stuff.
• 40:16
  They love points, and they love games. This is totally irrelevant, but, like, my old head of HR was like, "No one will remember the salary, the raise you gave them.
• 40:23
  All they'll remember is, like, did they get a pizza party, like, [laughs] once a month." [laughs] He's like, "That's the trick, just, like, give your team pizza parties."
• 40:30
  [laughs] So that's the biggest take-home lesson here. Yeah. That's awesome. Any, any managers out there listening, pizza parties. [laughs] I think that's a good takeaway to end it. Thank you everybody for tuning in.
• 40:42
  Thank you Jimmy, Ruth, and Eric, and we will talk to you all soon. Bye. Bye, guys. [laid-back music]