Latest / Sharp Strategies Sweet Success / #104 - Seth Greene on Why Law Firms Should Stop Chasing Visibility and Start Tracking Results

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#104 - Seth Greene on Why Law Firms Should Stop Chasing Visibility and Start Tracking Results · Sharp Strategies Sweet Success

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: We are not a brand building agency.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Our goal is not to get your logo out there,
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: your name out there, get you recognized by focus groups.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Our goal is every dollar you invest with us, have dollar babies.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: It should bring back more dollars.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Everything we do is designed to build either trackable leads in cases
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: or relationships to generate trackable results in terms of referrals.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of overpaying on Google AdWords pay-per-click,
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: we're taking the actual list,
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: using it as a custom audience on meta and running ads there
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: where there's no competition.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: You are listening to Sharp Strategies Sweet Success.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, everyone, and welcome.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: You're listening to Sharp Strategies Sweet Success.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: I am your host, Tiffany Swedensky, and today I have with me Seth Green.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: Seth Green is of market domination,
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: and I'm going to turn it over to him to have him talk a little bit about himself and
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: the company.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me, Tiffany.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's an honor to be here.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Let's see, marketdominationllc.com.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: I founded it 19 years ago.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: We are a direct response marketing firm.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Our goal is to grow your business so that you can run it.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: We've been on the Inc. 5000.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: I've written 11 bestselling books.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a Two Comic Club award from Russell Brunson and Dan Kennedy,
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: who also,
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the only person in history they ever nominated
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: for their marketing award three years in a row.
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  SPEAKER_00: And in year four, they stopped having the contest and they won't tell me if I break it.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm super excited to get to share with your audience.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: You said direct response marketing, which is like a magic buzzword when it comes to me.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: And of course,
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: my old boss,
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Ben Glass,
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: my former boss rather, you know, he's definitely in the Dan Kennedy universe.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm very familiar.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: So are you specifically in the legal space or are you not industry specific or
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: who do you help primarily?
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's a small world.
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  SPEAKER_00: I had breakfast with Ben a week and a half ago.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we are in three different verticals.
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  SPEAKER_00: Professional practices are our largest vertical,
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  SPEAKER_00: which would be legal, financial, accounting, medical, coaching and consulting.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Then we are in the e-commerce space and we are in the raising capital space.
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  SPEAKER_00: So those are the three verticals that we play in.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: I have a hard question for you.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: I've been waiting for...
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: I guess a Dan Kennedy disciple is sometimes what I call him.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: I hope that's not offensive, but I have a question for this.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna wait till the end though, because it's a good one.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: As far as direct response marketing for law firms,
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  SPEAKER_01: in your words, currently, what does that look like in practice?
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: Everything we do needs to be trackable and needs to make the phone ring.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: So if we are not a brand building agency,
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: our goal is not to get your logo out there,
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: your name out there, get you recognized by focus groups.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Our goal is every dollar you invest with us should go have dollar babies.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: It should bring back more dollars.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Everything we do is designed to build either trackable leads in cases
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: or relationships to generate trackable results in terms of referrals.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: What channels would you say that you're doing direct response marketing on?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: I can see direct response marketing fitting in social media or print, but what's the scope here?
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: So we would say, and maybe I'm a little controversial to say this.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need to be omnipresent.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need to be on every channel.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think you should focus your efforts as a business owner or law firm owner on
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  SPEAKER_00: the channels where your prospective clients spend their time.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: So if your clients aren't on TikTok, you don't need to be on TikTok.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: So what channels we work on depend on.
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  SPEAKER_00: So yes, that does encompass social media.
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  SPEAKER_00: It encompasses print.
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  SPEAKER_00: It encompasses direct mail a lot.
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  SPEAKER_00: It encompasses radio, TV, online.
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  SPEAKER_00: If there is a media channel that we can make trackable and generate results
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  SPEAKER_00: because our clients' ideal prospects are there, we'll make it work.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: So you mentioned that you wrote 11 books.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm kind of curious,
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  SPEAKER_01: is it kind of the situation where the older ones like you hand wrote
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  SPEAKER_01: or did you outsource part of it?
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  SPEAKER_01: Like how did you get so many books published?
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  SPEAKER_00: Great question.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, in the beginning, a number A number of those were written by me one word at a time.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: Then I learned the process that is much easier to speak your book than typing your book.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: I did a few that way.
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  SPEAKER_00: We've also taken some compilations of an interview series.
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  SPEAKER_00: I wrote, but I, again, spoke them and then turned them into readable text.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing a lot more transcription to articles these days because I mean,
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: AI processing it makes it easy to organize maybe disjointed thoughts on
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: a transcript.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really useful for me.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, these days you have to make so much content to stay relevant.
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  SPEAKER_01: So for, I guess,
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  SPEAKER_01: social media specifically,
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: because this is kind of related to the question I want to ask you at the end of
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  SPEAKER_01: the show.
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  SPEAKER_01: So you said like, if your clients aren't on TikTok, don't go to TikTok.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: How should a law firm determine where their clients are?
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how would they answer that question?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: So first you have to define who your ideal clients are.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: Once we've got the demographics and the psychographics,
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: the research is fairly easy these days in terms of finding out where the audience is
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: that matches that target demographics.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: So whether that's an audio ad on somebody else's podcast that's aimed
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: at your target market,
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  SPEAKER_00: or whether that's in a social media ad platform targeting,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's relatively easy to figure out if they're there.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: And if you want to do the low-tech route,
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  SPEAKER_00: you could literally email or call your clients
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: and ask them what platforms they spend the most time on.
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  SPEAKER_01: I imagine with like personal injury attorney, I mean,
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: correct me if my
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: assumption's wrong, but let's say you're a personal injury firm,
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: you're going after motor vehicle accidents.
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  SPEAKER_01: My feelings is that that's an audience of everyone
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  SPEAKER_01: because car accidents don't necessarily discriminate.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: A law firm may choose to go after one subset of people.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: I would say you are reinforcing.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: And you're absolutely right.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: We created last year
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: A process by which we can extract search intent data.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I can build an audience of people who search for car accident lawyer near me
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  SPEAKER_00: in your city on Google, but I can run ads to them on Meta or anywhere else.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Which means I'm in a competitive vacuum
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  SPEAKER_00: because no other law firm is targeting them this way unless they're a client
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: of ours.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: It means your ad cost,
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  SPEAKER_00: your cost per lead,
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  SPEAKER_00: your cost per case drops significantly because there's no competition bidding up
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: the price.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: And your lead quality goes up because, again, you're showing up somewhere where nobody else is.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: So with meta ads specifically,
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: one of the things I struggle with practically speaking as a marketer is
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: the creative.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because with meta ads, you need a lot of creative.
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  SPEAKER_01: You need a lot of video.
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  SPEAKER_01: You need a lot of images.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like how do you address that?
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  SPEAKER_01: Not just with personal injury firms, maybe with small businesses in general.
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  SPEAKER_01: How does your agency solve the creative problem?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Honestly, we do all the work for them.
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  SPEAKER_00: We used to have that problem of every week, email, hey,
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  SPEAKER_00: we need more creative,
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  SPEAKER_00: we need more creative,
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  SPEAKER_00: and they wouldn't always get it done,
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  SPEAKER_00: they wouldn't always get it done on time,
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  SPEAKER_00: and we said,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know what,
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  SPEAKER_00: we just need to take it over and do it for them, or at least batch it together.
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  SPEAKER_00: So if I'll say, hey,
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Lawyer John,
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  SPEAKER_00: you need one day a month where you're going to block off an hour and record video
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  SPEAKER_00: for me and we'll supply the scripts.
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  SPEAKER_00: That works.
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  SPEAKER_00: Or everything that we can create without them,
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  SPEAKER_00: whether it's making an avatar of them in 11 labs,
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  SPEAKER_00: cloning their voice,
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  SPEAKER_00: creating the images ourselves, which our graphic designers can do.
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  SPEAKER_00: The more we can do,
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  SPEAKER_00: the less they have to do,
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: the better,
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  SPEAKER_00: because the more likely it is to get done out the door and actually work.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's an ongoing problem.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: With Facebook ads in particular,
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  SPEAKER_01: I've been told by ad experts recently
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  SPEAKER_01: that really video ads aren't necessarily what you're shooting for.
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  SPEAKER_01: That image ads,
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  SPEAKER_01: at least for the personal injury segment,
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  SPEAKER_01: convert better than maybe a video ad recorded by an attorney
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  SPEAKER_01: or something else would.
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  SPEAKER_01: Is that correct?
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  SPEAKER_01: Or did I get bad info?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: Good info?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: I would say it depends on the target market and the city.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: So there are cities where image ads work better.
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  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't do a super slick video recorded by that attorney that looks like a TV commercial.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: We've been pleasantly surprised.
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  SPEAKER_00: That more authentic selfie style videos by the attorney or testimonial videos from
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: the clients work better.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that brings up something else that I struggle.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I struggle with,
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  SPEAKER_01: but when I talk about video,
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  SPEAKER_01: social media video in particular to attorneys,
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  SPEAKER_01: they tell me they want a polished professional video.
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  SPEAKER_01: But what you do see in the marketplace on Instagram, on TikTok are not that.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're more selfie style, less polished.
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  SPEAKER_01: Is that like a mindset mindset?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: I would ultimately prove it to them.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: I would split test a professional video that they feel good about from an ego perspective.
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  SPEAKER_00: They might resonate more with the video that looks authentic like
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: He just grabbed his phone and recorded this.
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  SPEAKER_00: This isn't overly produced.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't fake.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: You're a direct response marketer.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, that's where I come from, too.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so direct response marketers, we're kind of like snubber noses a little bit at branding.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: I talk to a lot of attorneys and a lot of them want,
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: I guess, all as nicely as I'll say it as nicely as I can.
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  SPEAKER_01: They want those ego-driven, polished ads.
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  SPEAKER_01: So let's say an attorney says they want to create an ad that's like that,
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: walking down the courthouse steps, logo suits, shaking hands across the business.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you could make it a direct response style ad.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you can make it work,
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: but I would ask that attorney,
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: it may cost you more per lead per case for everything using that style of video.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: Or Mr. Attorney, you might, Mr. Attorney, you might be right.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: That might be the way to go.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: We won't know in your city until we test.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Are you open to doing it both ways and seeing which one wins?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're right, then we'll just, we'll stop running the other app.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of hard, I guess, for some of the business owners to take that leap of faith.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: But that, at least as far as I understand it, that's the way to do it.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: You can't know how marketing will perform before you test it or attempt it.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: And there are plenty of examples of major Your company is making huge investments
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: and things that have famously flopped.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, it feels like kind of obvious with Facebook ads.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: When I talk to attorneys about Facebook ads, they say they don't work.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: The leads are junk.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: And some of them have been through.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: That process enough times that they've just lost confidence in it, which is unfortunate.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say to that attorney?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: I would say I can't go back in time and replace all the people who did this before
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: that didn't work.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Are you open to a different way of doing it that might actually work?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Or if you're too jaded and skeptical, then fine, it's your money.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go to a different platform and see how that goes.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: Something I tried when I talked to attorneys about Facebook ads or any type
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: of digital marketing is that it will generate a lot of leads and a lot
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: of those will be jumped.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it's important not to be offended by that.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: Is it a good idea for a personal injury firm to use like AI automations
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: to prioritize certain leads and reject the bad ones?
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: Or I don't know if you have a take on that,
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: how they should handle the intake of those types of leads.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: So number one,
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: there's certainly things we can do to reduce the amount of junk and increase
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: the amount of lead quality and targeting the people actually looking
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: for you like we talked about earlier would probably be a great place to start.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Then, yeah, absolutely.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: There are probably AI apps or you could build one for lead scoring purposes so
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: that your intake staff spends more time on the most likely qualified leads
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: and less time on whatever junk is still left.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so I actually remember when I think we attended the Pilma Summit together
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: because you gave a talk.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's where we met.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: You figured it out.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you were talking and it finally all clicked with me.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Antonio, yes, you were at my presentation.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so tell me a little bit more about that because it's been a while since we talked about it.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that was back in January, I think.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: What is this that you're doing with Google and Facebook?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: So we are serving as the bridge between the two.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: So we're taking the search intent data of people searching for,
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: you know, hey, car accident lawyer, San Antonio.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then instead of overpaying on Google AdWords pay-per-click,
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: we're taking the actual list Using it as a custom audience on Meta
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: and running ads there where there's no competition.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, there's probably growing competition on Facebook, but it is still.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's not targeted because they're running everywhere
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: because that's all they know how to do is run to everybody 21 to 65 in that city.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas they're wasting a ton of money and causing a lot of ineffective noise.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas we're only going after the people literally searching.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: Correct me if I'm wrong.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: You're literally taking people who have searched on Google,
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: use these terms,
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: taking their data,
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: their personally identifiable data,
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: using that to create a custom audience in Facebook and showing ads to them.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: Effectively, I guess showing ads to people who have searched on Google, which my listeners...
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: Who don't know, that's actually incredibly, I've never heard of that.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: You're actually the only vendor who's presented that as an option.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want you to give away any secret sauce.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not trying to needle you, but that seems so intuitively a good thing.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: Good idea.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: I guess let me ask you this.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: Are there any downsides?
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like why would a firm not want to do something like that?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: So great question.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll give you the answer without giving away our secret sauce.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: So we had other folks attend that film a presentation that you were at.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: We had meetings with almost everybody in that room.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: If we upload this list to Meta, what are we saying?
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: We're certifying by checking the box, blah, blah, blah about the list.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: And legally, strict interpretation, that's not true.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it's not our customer list.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: We can't lie or exaggerate to Meta.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: We're not going to do it.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: I said, okay, that's your choice.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Or, hey, we're worried that if the rules change, our account's going to get shut down.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Or if some other thing happens from Zuckerberg, that we're going to get Facebook trouble.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I said, okay, what if we run
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them said, oh my god, sign us up.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: And some of them said, no, no, no, it's still too much.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: We can't get there.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: We can't get our head around it.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: The reasons why they don't do it are skepticism and fear,
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: but that's keeping you from helping more people and making more money.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, really,
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: when you think about what it's like to be somebody with a legal issue,
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: and attorneys don't appreciate this,
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: but attorneys are extremely hard to get a hold of.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm a non-attorney,
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: and I talk to my friends about what I do,
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: and they talk about their experiences working with attorneys and law firms.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: And most of them, they've told me they're scared just to call a law firm, not even...
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: They're just terrified of placing a phone call and telling somebody
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: about their legal issue for whatever reason.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so I don't feel like attorneys appreciate how hard it can be
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: to actually reach people with a legal issue
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: because we're assuming they're always doing I don't know.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's one of those too good to be true kind of things, but if there were no rules...
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: If there were no issue,
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: if Meta didn't have rampant issues with like actual fraud on their ad platforms,
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: which is not what this is,
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: if they didn't have these issues,
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: this would be like a no brainer kind of marketing idea.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so I don't I don't know if I have any other questions except to kind of marvel
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: at how cool that whole process is.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: And really,
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: it's something I feel like a lot of in-house marketers have been trying to crack for
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: a long time and kind of figure out.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: Let me ask you my Dan Kennedy social media question.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you've given like three hooks for this.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm super excited.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: Completely unplanned.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: This is an interesting question I've been mulling over.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: But so Dan Kennedy is famously against social media.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: Would you agree?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: No, I would say he's not against social media.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: He's against wasting money on social media.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: True.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: I've heard it.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the reason I wanted to ask this question,
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: I've heard him like poo-poo the idea of developing followers and chasing.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: You can't deposit followers or likes in your bank account.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: But if you use it to generate real leads of real people, I mean,
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: he wrote a book with Kim Walsh Phillips about the No BS Guide
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: to Social Media Marketing.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: So he's not opposed to it.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's a question of,
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: can you make it a direct response medium that generates trackable,
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: profitable results?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: In which case, go for it.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: Just don't build your whole business on any one platform.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: Don't make it so all your leads are coming from Facebook.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: And if the algorithm changes, you're screwed.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you answered my question.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: Something I think about
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: a lot is how influencer marketing is not unlike direct response marketing at all.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: And if you look at what influencers do,
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: they are building a following on Instagram, but they're also getting...
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: I just believe that wholeheartedly.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: If you use it correctly, it can be a direct response marketing medium.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: And what attorneys don't realize is they should be doing what we call micro
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: influencer marketing.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because if I'm a PI attorney,
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: there are micro influencers in my city who see the same clients I do before I do.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: There are chiropractors.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: There are insurance agents.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: There are pain doctors.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: There are other people who see the same clients I do.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: We've actually got an entire process for that for the PI industry in terms of how
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: to build relationships with other centers of influence in your city and get them
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: to literally promote you to their patients.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's just classic referral marketing.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it is so important.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: And you're right.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like social media is a vehicle for that because you nurture those relationships.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe a lot of times when people come to you and ask for that type of service,
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: they've already kind of bought in mentally.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: I try to convince my clients all the time.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, hey,
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: whether they realize it or not,
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to pull all of them into being something of a micro influencer.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I get a little bit of resistance.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Some of them don't want to post B-roll or videos of themselves to social media.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: There's hesitancy there.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say to them to convince them this is something, this is like the future almost?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: I would tell them to go get a copy of my book,
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: The Ultimate Guide to Growing Your Business with a Podcast.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: And for your listeners, we've got a special offer at ultimatepodcastbook.com.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: They can get 30% off the Amazon price of the physical book and we will ship it right to them.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that book will do a fabulous job,
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: in my opinion,
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: of convincing them of why they need to be a micro-influencer in their space and how
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: to get an army of other micro-professional influencers to promote their practice.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like that's maybe what is subtly changing
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: from what things were like 20 years ago when you could promote a law firm as
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: a law firm.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: But it seems to me these days you promote a law firm by promoting law.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that's true for other businesses.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like I have the owner of the local karate gym where my kid goes is
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: a micro influencer and posts on Facebook every day.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's how he recruits new parents to come in.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: It seems to me that's actually the mode in which most people are getting referrals
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: as opposed to, you know, refer to the brand.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: In today's day and age,
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: people want to do business with people that they know, like,
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: and trust or they feel they have a relationship with and that people in
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: the law firm's case are going to be the attorneys as opposed to,
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: you know, a faceless logo.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not going to change because AI is making it so people are craving
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: that human connection,
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: authenticating if the people they talk to are human
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: and sometimes just avoiding talking to people they don't know.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Earlier today,
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: I got pulled What was effectively a sales meeting was initiated because of
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: a AI actually was somebody who was an AI profile on LinkedIn that reached out to me
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: and I wanted to demo their tool.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: I took a look at it and realized they had used AI for the whole sales process
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: because that's what they were browsing.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's what they were selling me on.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: A hundred percent.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's all about the human connection in today's day and age.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: I have two questions I usually close out the show with.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: What's something that we didn't talk about on the show that ultimately you wanted to discuss?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think you did a pretty good job.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think you were very thorough.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Check us out.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: Get the book at ultimatepodcastbook.com.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: The website's marketdominationllc.com and my most active social profiles on LinkedIn.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Mine.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was going to be my next question, how to find you and look you up.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: So you covered that.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so much for being on the show and talking with me.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: Actually,
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: I need to follow up with you because I think I've been meaning to for like
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: a few weeks and just keep getting busy.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate it.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for everyone who is listening.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: We appreciate you tuning in and we'll see you next time.