Latest / Dispatched & Dysfunctional / Trapped at 2 A.M. — The Way Out Starts with You — Dr. Greg Obert

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Trapped at 2 A.M. — The Way Out Starts with You — Dr. Greg Obert · Dispatched & Dysfunctional

• Chris Stockton: All right, you're listening to Dispatch Dysfunctional, real calls, real people, real conversations about the weight we carry. And today's really matters because there's a whole lot of people in EMS, fire, law enforcement, dispatch, nursing, military and healthcare walking around functioning just well enough to keep their wheels on while internally they're holding together by caffeine, dark humor and pure well stubbornness, bullheadedness, whatever you want to call it. They're showing up, they're doing the job. their stance on the radio, but inside they're smoking, they're burned out, they're disconnected, they're not properly communicating. And a lot of these cases getting absolute dog shit help when they finally ask for it. So today we're getting into the leadership burnout trauma and what bad therapy actually looks like and why some people keep feeling trapped even when technically they've got the options. And I've got to guess that who doesn't set, who doesn't sound like a brochure and doesn't seem interested in blowing smoke up anybody's asses. Dr. Greg, welcome. Before we get into it today, without any resume titles, LinkedIn, BS, bullshit, whatever you want to call it, ⁓ introduce yourself to everybody. Dr. Greg: Absolutely. I'm glad that I don't sound like a brochure. So I'll be sure to put that on my resume. No, I'm Dr. Greg Obert. I'm a clinical psychologist by trade. I've been working in mental health for over 15 years now. And I've just found that work to be incredibly rewarding. I've worked in all sorts of different treatment settings. But the number one thing that's always kept me motivated to keep doing this work is to see the relief that people get, in particular, people that have experienced some kind of trauma in their lives, to be able to reclaim their lives after really witnessing the worst of humanity. And I can't quit it. It's just a good feeling. And it makes me really ⁓ proud to know that I contributed in some way to people's healing journey. ⁓ Also very, very humbling too, to see how the power of a therapeutic relationship can really change people for the better. I don't know if that was without all the titles that you mentioned, but hopefully that was down to earth enough. Chris Stockton: You're good. You're good. I actually have a big heart for psychology because of the fact of how much it does affect us. And it's amazing to meet people like you that actually do give a shit and don't just, you know, brush everything. Like you said, PTSD, trauma, any of that off to where it's just a, ⁓ you're just diagnosed. You actually try to help people, you know, walk through it and become better in the end. Dr. Greg: I mean, I appreciate that, you know, thanks for the for being the advocate for mental health. But it's true that people walk around and they just feel like I'm never going to get out of this dark hole. So fuck it, right? They just kind of live their lives in that dark hole. And they don't they don't they don't reach their fullest potential. And I think what you said at the top about how I forget the exact wording. People are showing up to their jobs with the wheels ⁓ barely on. They can function well enough to accomplish the mission, but once the shift is over, I mean, the wheels just do fall off. And that's no way for anyone, let alone people who I value greatly, like first responders, veterans, to live their lives. They deserve better. Chris Stockton: agree 100%. You know, and I've been a victim of that myself. I was burned out and working and didn't really give my all like I was supposed to. And I guess that was partly my fault, but partly the job's fault at the same time. So, you know, it's my fault for not asking for help. And it was the job's fault for, of course, seeing all the crap I've Dr. Greg: Well, that's just it, right? It's a bit of both. mean, it's easy to sit here and say we all have free will and choice, and we do. And ultimately, we can be the ones to ask for help. It's also true that we're heavily influenced by our environment. In the work I've done with a lot of veterans in particular, and I think this applies to first responders too, the joke that I will make is, OK, so you were in this really intense battle and just awful, awful firefight. And so you're feeling some kind of way about it. And you can just go to your CEO and tell them all about your feelings, right? Tell them just how afraid you were and you know, how you just wish you could, you know, have done something differently. I mean, they'll usually laugh at that point. And then I'll say, what would have happened? And they said, well, the best case scenario would be rub some dirt on it, you'll be fine. Maybe go see the chap. I'm like, yeah, that's probably the best case scenario. But in other ways, some people might take advantage of the soldier at that moment because they know they're hurting. And certainly probably one of the worst outcomes too, though not the worst. But you can't cut it. You've got to get reassigned. You've got to go somewhere else because you can't handle it. So your career, your reputation, everything gets thrown out. And I mean, the same is true with first responders. You guys have a job to do. And depending on what that job is, I mean, you might be walking into some serious danger. You you might be dealing with someone who's seriously injured and you're trying to keep them alive on the way to a hospital. I mean, it's intense stuff. And if you're perceived as not being able to cut it, well, then you gotta go, right? You can't really hang. So it's better to not ask for help and to keep all that stuff buried so that you do, quote unquote, fit in, even though you're really suffering on the inside. Chris Stockton: I think on that note too is I'm sure you've seen it. I know when people try to get help and they let, for instance, supervisors know or something like that, they're internally labeled within companies or, you know, the propaganda behind, you're in therapy, let's push you to the side so you can't do this anymore. know, to me, that's bullshit and it does happen, but I think that... that should go away in my opinion because you are trying to seek help. You should not be punished for seeking help. Dr. Greg: Yeah, I agree with you. It should. But unfortunately, it doesn't always right. And so that's where, you know, I hope as well as you know, some other people I've spoken to on this topic, I hope I can sort of ⁓ break through some of that stigma. Because it's not really weakness to actually go take care of ourselves. In fact, a lot of times Chris Stockton: Bye. Dr. Greg: I mean, I hear that all the time where it's it's weak. Why are you talking to someone? I would argue the opposite. I would argue it takes an immense amount of strength and courage to meet with someone who you don't really know all that well and then start to go through some of the most ⁓ intimate personal parts of your life that you don't really want to look at, especially if it's trauma based. Like, I don't really want to think about the worst thing that's ever happened to me. and I don't blame my clients for feeling the same way. It's perfectly natural to act that way. It's human nature, excuse me, and that's where the healing begins. So if anything, I find it way more impressive and way more inspirational for someone to turn and face that thing that they've been running from. Even if... other people are going to make fun of them or think that they're less than because the truth is they're not there. I would argue more than. Chris Stockton: Right. And that actually brings me to a question I got right here is what – so psychologically speaking, or from your perspective, I should say, what does trapped usually mean when someone comes to you saying I'm trapped or I feel trapped? Dr. Greg: Yeah. Usually what that looks like is somebody who isn't able to move past a significant event or a series of significant events. So I like to sort of define my terms here a little bit because unfortunately, this is my soapbox and it's my pet peeve on social media. I cannot stand, I cannot stand the term trauma-informed care. because it is a completely meaningless term. Essentially, if you've gone to grad school for any kind of mental health therapy, you've learned about trauma. All care is trauma-informed care. It's nothing but a buzzword. So I think a lot of times people will end up going to somebody for care, for trauma-informed care, and then maybe have a bad experience because the therapist isn't necessarily someone who treats trauma, they just like to use the buzzword because that's what's hot on social media. What I do differently is I actually bring the evidence-based trauma treatment to people. So what is trauma? Well, typically this is going to be some kind of severe stress reaction to an intense event. And I like to divide these into two categories. We have our lowercase t traumas. So these are going to be events that occur that are maybe a little bit more planned or not involve any kind of risk of injury or death. So for example, the planned death of a loved one. You know someone's going downhill, you know they're going to pass. That can be traumatic depending on how they go. It might not rise to the level of what I call a capital T trauma. These are the same idea severe stress reaction to an event, but that event is going to include or consist of ⁓ sudden unexpected violence, serious injury, death, maybe some kind of sexual crime. And when people experience that, they might develop and are at a significantly greater risk of developing PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder. So when people have that, They find themselves unable to move beyond, hence why they are stuck or trapped. And what I do with them is educate them on what PTSD actually is and then select from a variety of treatments that may work best for their personality, their schedules, ways to actually face the thing that they've been avoiding. So if we tie this into something like first responders, Firefighters, know, I mean, seeing all sorts of burns and awful stuff from all the calls that they go out on. ⁓ know, EMTs, I mean, they're dealing with emergencies most of the time. I mean, they probably have to get dispatched for, you know, like the occasional, I don't know, I lock myself out of my house for some, I don't know, there's probably, I'm sure there's crazy stories out there where it's not really an emergency, but for the most part, ⁓ it's gonna be serious medical issues. Police officers, obviously, they never know what they're walking into. mean, what seems like a traffic stop ⁓ could turn violent. Actually, I just watched a video the other day. Some dude was sleeping in his car. The cop went up to try and wake him up. He just wanted to ID him and then send him on his way. And the guy started the car, tried to drive away. And the cop ended up hopping into the car. And now there's a high speed chase with this guy who kidnapped a police officer. It didn't end well for him. So he got got. So that's a good thing. I mean, routine stop, you know? And so when you're exposed to that over and over and over and over again, this stuff is going to build up and people are going to feel like the world is a terrible place because that's all they're seeing. They're going to feel like I'm getting burned out. I can't handle this yet I feel like I have to keep showing up because I don't want to let anybody on the team down so it's almost like I'm being forced into this position that I don't want to be forced into and when this builds up people lose the quality of their lives. Classic example with PTSD is substance use. Turning to the bottle, turning to some other substance. avoiding people, isolating, not being in open areas, freaking out at loud noises. All of these things really affect people in negative ways. The good news is that when they actually go through real trauma treatment, they come out the other side feeling better. I've seen people that I work with who, I mean, the thought of doing, of talking about what happened to them. that one thing that they just can't stop thinking about or showing up in their nightmares. They thought they would never talk about it. And by the end of treatment, it's the best compliment I can ever get, they're bored of talking about it. I mean, can you imagine the worst thing that's ever happened to you for maybe decades you've been running from and then by the end of a round of therapy, it's, can we stop talking about this? Because this is getting old, So. Chris Stockton: I thought that's a feeling. Dr. Greg: Yeah, it really is. And I love being able to bring that hope back for people because even if someone's experienced some kind of trauma, they don't have to live with it for the rest of their lives. Now, my caveat to this is the trauma treatment doesn't erase what happened. Unless they have a DeLorean that can go eight, miles an hour and take them back in time, we can't change what happened. But what we can do is Chris Stockton: reference. Dr. Greg: change, what was that? Thank you, appreciate it. But what we can do is change how people relate to that memory. So ⁓ for instance, instead of ⁓ say a Vietnam veteran looking out into the woods every time they see woods freaking out because it takes them right back to the jungles, ⁓ they can look at woods and they might feel uncomfortable. Chris Stockton: That's a nice reference. Dr. Greg: but their nervous system isn't jumping into that fight or flight state, freak out, I'm unsafe. That kind of thing is, it's just life changing. Chris Stockton: That's amazing. And it sounds like you've done this quite a bit. Like you said, used 15 years. So have you ever had someone come to you and just say, I have no other options. I have no options other than offing themselves or what have you. How would you go about listening or trying to alleviate that, I should say? Dr. Greg: Yeah, well, yes, ⁓ dealing with trauma, ⁓ suicidal ideation tends to come up fairly often. In fact, it's usually the exception to the rule that people aren't thinking about killing themselves. It's not that it's ⁓ a bad thing to have those thoughts. And what I mean by that is it's a normal reaction to something that feels hopeless. But the thing that I work with people on is, listen, this is a very permanent solution to what might be a temporary problem. You might not have had the education. You might not have had the knowledge about PTSD trauma treatments. You might have just felt like there is no hope. I mean, my heart goes out especially to some of the older guys and gals that I've worked with because PTSD as a diagnosis wasn't created until... to the 83 or 84, I think it was 84. So before that was Shellshock syndrome. And well, if I didn't go to Vietnam, I didn't have Shellshock syndrome. So they just kind of had to sit with that for who knows how long. I mean, even, I know some people really like him, but I never really got into George Carlin all that much. even he I saw in a standup of his once was just like, ⁓ they're changing the name from shell shock syndrome to PTSD. Well, that's just you know, PC culture and it's shell shock syndrome. And it's like, man, with that one clip, like how many people have you misled? Not maybe maliciously, but just because he was trying to be funny, or make a joke, where people who actually could have gotten help, were just like, Yeah, that's right. You know, I what I'm dealing with isn't the same as what those people in Vietnam dealt with. So anyways, I feel like I'm going down a tangent there, but to bring it back, the thing that I like to say to people who are having those suicidal thoughts is that you don't have to go through with it. And also ⁓ give me X number of weeks depending on the treatment that you select. Like I want you to live Chris Stockton: You good? Dr. Greg: I want you to get your life back. It's not gonna be an easy treatment. I don't bullshit people that I speak to, and this is gonna be the second hardest thing that you ever do. The first being living through the trauma itself. Even still, if you've already done the hardest part, then you can do this. Give me X number of weeks, and let's see how you feel after that. But don't just jump into, okay, I haven't. found anything that helps me up to this point, so it's better to just end it all. I mean, I've also worked with people who are, you know, the, for lack of better word, the survivors of someone who did kill themselves, and it's devastating, you know, what that suicide can do. And if someone is actively thinking about that, I mean, try and think about the people around you. I mean, what that would do to them. So, and get help. mean, there's help out there. The National Suicide Crisis Line is 988. ⁓ If you're a veteran, press one, and you get the veteran's crisis line. don't make a permanent solution to something that may actually have a fix. Chris Stockton: And also just so everyone knows, that 9 out of line, you can text it, you can call it, and it's completely anonymous. ⁓ I'm sure Dr. Gregg knows that well, but I have had a lot of people that I referred to it and has helped them tremendously. Dr. Greg: That's great. Chris Stockton: ⁓ you know, one thing in this field, ⁓ that is damn good is normalizing stuff that should be normal or not normal. should say, ⁓ you know, we normalize the exhaustion and we normalize the emotional shutdowns. ⁓ we don't realize bad sleep, bad coping, bad marriages, snap, get people drinking too much. Just doing all that as being part of the job, you know, after a while, folks stop asking whether. something is healthy or not, they just ask whether it's common or normal. To me, that's a dangerous game. That's not how we should do this. So when you look at leadership, burnout and trauma, what are you seeing people get wrong the most? Dr. Greg: It's funny you bring this question up because ⁓ we were just having a discussion about this earlier in the week. ⁓ My team. Yeah. So. Chris Stockton: ⁓ wow. Dr. Greg: I think the biggest issue that a lot of leadership gets wrong is the numbers game. So a lot of leadership tends to be looking at stats because their job is to report numbers. And there's nothing wrong with that. mean, we need to make sure whatever organization you're a part of, you know, we all need to make sure that we are being held accountable and that numbers are being met, especially, you know, if you're in a place where it's a business, it's not funded by taxpayer dollars, right? I mean, even if you are being funded by taxpayer dollars, we need to make sure that we're using that judiciously. So a lot of leadership is just gonna look at the numbers and they might not understand what it's like to be on the ground. So if my numbers are being met, then I don't really need to do anything differently for the frontline workers. The issue is, We have a national shortage of many healthcare workers. And I suspect, I don't have the numbers pulled up, but I suspect that's true for a lot of first responders as well. I know for psychologists, that is absolutely true. And so a lot of people are being overworked and the response from leadership tends to be not all, not all, not all, but tends to be. As long as the numbers are being met, just keep it moving. Let's just keep going. You know, and then, okay, well, you guys are feeling underappreciated. What's the classic meme, right? Here's a pizza party. Thanks. Really appreciate that. That's going to help me after a shift where I've had, you know, 13 or 14 emergencies that I've had to deal with that were really intense. But yeah, please put pepperoni on mine, you know. So. I think one of the things that a lot of leadership needs to start thinking about is just because numbers are being met does not mean that the people who are getting those numbers are doing well. So what are some things they could do to support those individuals? Well, I think even just getting to know them a little bit more personally can be helpful. And if it's especially a difficult day or a difficult call, being able to support them, even with just a few kind words or gestures. So as an example, I read a book a number of years back on trauma. I wish I could remember the name of it. But the officer that they were talking to in this particular chapter was doing just fine. And then he got called out and there was an awful firefight. He ended up having to shoot and kill the criminal. And they gave him, I think, some time off. And then when he returned to the station, he put his belt on and he's like, just something does not feel right. I just, still don't feel good about this. And his boss said, then you need to take some more time off. Don't you worry about it. Go get your head straight. Cause we need you, you know, at a hundred percent when you come back. And so the guy took another like week, week and a half off. And when he came back, he put his belt on. This feels right now. And he could go do his job. There's probably a lot of organizations out there where the boss would say, ⁓ well, your belt doesn't feel right. Well, yeah, I mean, because we do a tough job. So I guess just deal with it. And, you already had some time off and we don't need to pay you more, more to just sit around and do nothing. It's like you're taking the humanity of your workers that are doing God's work for much of society. And you're just for lack of better phrase, you're just kind of shitting all over it. So to summarize all this, and I'll stop talking, but ⁓ I think leadership would do well to look at the people, to look beyond the numbers at the people and not just say, as long as there are no fires that are breaking out, metaphorical fires, we're just gonna keep this going even if it's hurting people. Chris Stockton: You go. Dr. Greg: the people that work for them. Chris Stockton: that yeah that actually makes a lot of sense. Damn. Wouldn't expect you to hit that that hard. was – I love that. ⁓ So what does burnout actually look like before it becomes obvious? I know, like you were just saying, that could be all kinds of things, but what would be one sign that as coworkers or partners or even spouses, we could look for each other to know that, my loved one or my partner or so on? Dr. Greg: Well good, I'm glad. Chris Stockton: is burned out and we need to see how to get them help. Dr. Greg: Sure. And some of these signs, you know, they could be related to other things. So don't think that, well, because Greg said this one thing, that must mean I'm burned out. No, I mean, it might just mean that you're dealing with something else. But one of the biggest signs is you're having a hard time turning off from work or turning work off in your mind. So you're going to be thinking a lot about what happened on the job. You're going to be talking a lot about what happened with people around you, loved ones, friends. And it's not to say you can't, you shouldn't ever talk about your job, but it just, it seems to become the focus that keeps coming back over and over and over again. You're probably going to start to feel pretty exhausted. ⁓ That could be from lack of sleep, but it could also just be like, as you go into the job, like, God, I have a 10 hour shift or however long my shift is, I have to get through this day. I don't know how I'm going to do it. So those are some of the early signs, right? But if these things continue to progress, you're probably going to start to see a lot of irritability. You're probably going to start to see a lot of anxiety, that nervousness popping up, you're probably going to start to see a lot of withdrawal or isolation. People that are burned out a classic thing that I hear from them a lot is I'm so over stimulated and I don't know what to do with it that when I get home I just like stare at a wall for like 30 minutes Because there's just so much happening Internally, they just need some space to do nothing and if that's happening on the regular That's a pretty good sign that that you're feeling burned out you find that your emotions start to take over, not just the irritability I mentioned, but some of the other emotions, maybe feeling disgust, shame, guilt, ⁓ fear, all of that starts to take over much more regularly, much more quickly. When your emotions are out of control like that, ⁓ it suggests that there's pretty poor emotion regulation going on. You're not really taking care of yourself enough. to have the resources that you need to keep those in check. And I could go on and on, I think you mentioned friends, family, spouses. If you start to see the person that you care about going through all of these things, and then of course on top of that, any substance use, it's likely that they're dealing with some pretty heavy consequences from their jobs. Maybe just bringing it to their attention is enough, but maybe they need some professional help. And hopefully they're willing to get that help because like you said, Chris, it's that stigma against it. Well, you just need to deal with it and suck it up. But I'm here to say that you don't need to. And in fact, there is light at the end of the tunnel if people want it. Chris Stockton: Very true. I've had friends commit suicide. I've actually found a friend when I was working at one point. He hung himself on a vessel and that was one of the roughest calls for me. yeah, there is. ⁓ yeah, that's one reason I got from offshore is talking about PTSD is that was one of them as I every time I'm after that incident trying to open a door because I couldn't find a patient. ⁓ Dr. Greg: Yeah, must have been devastating. Chris Stockton: kept replanning and replanning and replanning. But anyway, so how often do you think people are praised for coping mechanisms, like you said, alcohol, drug abuse that are pretty much just wrecking them or deteriorating their lives? Dr. Greg: ⁓ all the time. Chris Stockton: Thank Dr. Greg: all the time, right? I mean, you mentioned dark humor at the top and you need to be able to have dark humor when you deal with the darkest parts of humanity. And so when I think about veterans, when I think about first responders, one of the things that they often say is, man, I wasn't really a big drinker until I entered this. And now all of a sudden it's like, oh, come on, come drink with us. Let's go, pull your weight, you can do it. So of course, if you can drink the most and still be standing, good for you. You're the alpha, right? Which is, I understand the sentiment behind it. And I would be lying if I said I hadn't once or twice in my life played a drinking game. But what I am saying is if that's the thing that you do to stay somewhat even keel. You're not you're not gonna stay even keel if you're doing that. But of course, you're just engaging in this coping skill that is doing more harm than good. Yeah, it might help numb you out a little bit. So you don't have to deal with those emotions from the shift you just got off. But what's that doing to your body? And what's that doing with you know, the cycle of addiction, it's chasing the high right? And so I have to keep using more and more and more. And now all of sudden, I'm using just to stave off. You know, the withdrawal symptoms, the tremors. ⁓ So it's not really helpful, but it's praised. You know, someone that might be feeling numb on the inside might have this kind of cool, calm exterior, even though inside it's complete chaos. You know, what do people tend to say about those who present themselves that way? Wow! They've got it all figured out. They're cool as a cucumber. Look at them go. But not dealing with our emotions is not dealing with a major core part of what it means to be human. That doesn't make us cool. It just means we're holding ourselves back from reaching our fullest potential. Chris Stockton: I gotcha. But yeah. Okay. So I was reading your form earlier this morning when I was prepping everything. ⁓ You put on here that we don't talk about enough what bad therapy looks like. That's one part I really want to hit on right now, you know? So people ask for help. They finally get the nerve for it. They get help. It sucks. And bad therapy can do real bad damage to people. know, it's not just that wasn't my favorite session. I mean, actual bodily harm or mental harm to them. It can make people shut down even harder, make them feel misunderstood, make them feel therapy as whole as a bullshit. ⁓ You know, make them feel the problem is all them. It's not an actual mental issue. It's not something that caused it. ⁓ And then they never go back. ⁓ So let's just say it plain as it is, you know, that's bullshit in my opinion. And what, what do you think a bad therapy would actually look like to somebody who's going there, you know, the red flags, ⁓ how it would feel after the session's over. for instance, Dr. Greg: Yeah, this is a great question. And I'm glad you asked it because you're right, we don't tend to talk about bad therapy enough. In fact, most of the time I'm posting my videos on YouTube about mental health tips. I can't tell you the number of comments I get about, well, you're just a bullshit artist because therapy is bad. I went to therapy and you just charge all this money and it doesn't work. It's like, well, first off, mean, sort of a separate issue, but what was the willingness to engage in the actual treatment? Because therapy is a team sport here, right? So if the client doesn't want to do anything, then of course therapy is not going to work. But we're going to set that aside and we're going to focus on the therapist. There are unfortunately bad therapists out there. As I suspect is probably the case in every field, ⁓ people get into it for the wrong reasons. So sometimes there are gonna be therapists that get in there because they want to fix themselves and they do it by trying to fix other people. Sometimes people just think, ⁓ well, you know, someone said I'm a good listener. So why not just do this whole therapy thing? Which is a great quality to have. It doesn't mean that you're gonna be a great therapist. So what does bad therapy tend to look like? Well, first off, Bad therapy is going to be somebody who is not actually active in their treatment with you. So that's going to be the stereotype that you see in all of media. Someone goes into the room and the therapist sits there. ⁓ how did that make you feel? ⁓ That is not therapy. That is not therapy no matter what anyone tells you. That is the client paying somebody who pretends to be a therapist a lot of money to just sit there and nod along and say, mm-hmm. Real therapy is going to be active. You're going to see the therapist asking engaging questions. You're going to see a therapist pointing out discrepancies or have questions about certain thought processes or work through the muck. of the emotions that are coming up for somebody, maybe coming up with ways to tweak behaviors that are not helpful. If somebody isn't doing that, if the therapist is not doing that, then they're not really doing good therapy. I would argue they're not doing any therapy at all. Second, I think you're going to have a bad time if the therapist does not define what the treatment is supposed to look like. So, When I meet with people, I do an intake. I get their history. I get a sense of their symptoms. I get a sense of what they want to work on. And this is put in a treatment plan. Every 90 to 120 days, we review the treatment plan. Are these still the goals that you want to work on? If so, great. Let's continue to do so. If you've accomplished them, let's knock the goals out. If you feel like you've accomplished everything else, and this is going to lead to my third point. You don't need to be here anymore. That third point, therapy doesn't need to last forever. So if you're going to a therapist and they're saying, well, the joke is, you know, the meme of someone kind of like wringing their hands happily. And they're like, ⁓ this person, you know, with multicolored hair and all these piercings just walked into the therapist's office and the therapist is all excited because they're going to have, you know, like, decades of money from this person. That's not That's not how most therapists, at least good therapists, are looking at it. Or I would argue should look at it. Because for some people, yes, they're gonna need five, ten, twenty years in therapy because there's a lot of stuff to go through. For most people, there should be an end date. It's like if you went to the doctor for a fever and then you were still seeing that same doctor a year later for that same fever. I mean, they're not... necessarily doing their job, and it's not appropriate to see that same doctor for the same fever, because the fever should be gone at that point. So, as an example, I mean, even in thinking about some of the trauma treatments I offer, one is a five-session treatment, you know, so with the intake, give me six weeks of your life, and that's it. We'll see kind of how things go from there. Maybe you need a more intensive treatment, but there's meant to be an end date. And if you feel better after that, you're done. Goodbye. Have a good life. You know? But this idea of just staying in it forever is not at all what a good therapist is going to do. Those are the three big ones. If any more come up, I'll mention them. Chris Stockton: I've never heard that before that there should be an end date. That's actually interesting. That's – and it does make sense. Like you said, you're not going to be going to a doctor for, like you said, a fever or pneumonia that's already over with. You're not going be going back to get treated for the same thing over and over and over again. And that makes a lot of sense. I swear these dogs are driving me insane. Dr. Greg: Yeah. They agree with me so... Chris Stockton: ⁓ Lord. And I think that's the part that a lot of the public misses on going to therapy is, know, people act like going to therapy is plain, simple answer. ⁓ Because sometimes it is, sometimes it's not. You know, sometimes it saves the people and sometimes the first person they sit down with is fucking horrible if you pardon my French. ⁓ I've had horrible therapists that, ⁓ well, that's not that bad. I was just talking about a dude that was decapitated. Don't tell me that. know, what do mean it's not that bad? Have you been in my field before? Have you been in my shoes? No. And I think I'm with a therapist, well, psychiatrist now that actually understands it because he has witnessed a lot of things that I've witnessed. And to me, that makes a better appeal for someone trying to trust someone to talk to them. Dr. Greg: Uh-huh. Chris Stockton: And that's something that I think is a big thing that a lot of people miss too, is you have to be able to trust your therapist. You have to be able to trust your psychiatrist or psychologist. Your whole mental team, you have to trust them with your life, literally. Dr. Greg: Yeah, well, and that's a great point. mean, the relationship is paramount. ⁓ In the thousand years of school that I've been in, you know, to get that PhD, the number one thing that always kept coming up again and again and again, the most important part of any therapy is the therapeutic relationship. Sometimes it's called the therapeutic alliance. ⁓ Because if... You guys don't have a good working relationship, one where the client feels like they can really explore those tough parts of themselves with you, then it doesn't matter what the skills are that come afterwards. Because the most important part is that relationship. And if you don't have it, because someone's trying to tell you, ⁓ you just saw this decapitated corpse, that's really not a big deal, just get over it, well, How can you trust them with doing any other inner work when they can't even validate the fact that you saw this grotesque scene? So of course the relationship is important and I'm glad that you found someone that works for you and I encourage anyone out there if you're currently with someone who's not giving that to you, well maybe talk to them about it first if you have a history. But if they're unwilling to change, you know, then it's time to find someone else because you should feel comfortable with who you're talking to. Therapy isn't about, God, I gotta go see this nerd again. You know, I mean, certainly it comes with a territory for me when it comes to trauma work because it's hard. So people like really cross their fingers and hope that I cancel on them the day of. But that's not the norm. It shouldn't be. I hate seeing this person, but I'm... supposed to quote unquote see this person to feel better even though I'm not feeling better. You wouldn't put up with that for a doctor like you said for pneumonia and people shouldn't put up with it for their mental health care either. Chris Stockton: perfectly said. And that actually brings me to my next question is, you know, what should first responders or really anybody specifically look for if they're trying to find a therapist or a psychologist? Dr. Greg: Yeah, so one of the things that this might be a little controversial for your audience, but it comes up fairly often in this work. You don't necessarily, you don't necessarily need to find someone that has done the same things as you. So a lot of times I will see, know, well, ⁓ you know, I'm a veteran, so I got to find someone who's a veteran. Now, I personally... I'm not a veteran. I've had a lot of military service in my life or in my family, excuse me. ⁓ So it's a population I respect. I just didn't serve myself. So automatically, a lot of people would say, well, I can't deal with this Greg guy because he's not a veteran. He's never a first responder. Although for some weird reason, for like a ⁓ split second, mental health care workers were first responders for discounts during COVID. Which I really liked that was really nice, even though I felt like an imposter, but I took it when I could take advantage of it. The analogy I kind of have is this that, you know, I've had my wisdom teeth pulled. And so if you need your wisdom teeth pulled, you would let me do it. And then they should know absolutely not. Why not? Well, because you didn't have the schooling, you didn't have the knowledge. But I went through the same thing. So shouldn't I be able to just pull your wisdom teeth? Well, you know, no. And eventually they relent and say, OK, maybe you don't need to have the same experiences. Even though someone might not have the same experiences as you, it doesn't mean they're automatically not going to be able to get you. I would look for somebody who may have experience with populations that you belong to. So if you're someone who is a first responder, look for therapists who specialize in that. They are out there, whether they are first responders themselves or not. You can look... for people who also specialize in conditions that maybe a first responder would experience. So for example, anxiety. If someone specializes in anxiety, ⁓ it doesn't really matter if their specialty is, one of their specialties is first responders, because anxiety is a universal human emotion. Now, the therapist should do the reading and get the knowledge to tailor the treatment to a first responder setting. If they do not do that, then that person might not be for you. I would also say, look for the people who do evidence-based care. So I mentioned a trauma treatment that was five sessions. I have a few different treatments that I do of varying lengths, of varying intensities. If someone says, treat trauma. and that's it, they don't really tell you anything else beyond that, then I would be a little skeptical of how they specifically treat it. Because if it's just coming in each week and talking about it and rehashing it, I'm not saying that can't be helpful, but it's probably not gonna get the results that the people want. Chris Stockton: Make sense. You know, and. Are you good? going. Dr. Greg: I would all- ⁓ go ahead I'm sorry. ⁓ no, give me a minute to think. I might have some more, but my brain just gave me a blank, so go ahead, please. Chris Stockton: ⁓ Yes, sir. So, you know, this is where some people make some people might get uncomfortable. And honestly, that's a good thing on this topic I'm going to bring up, because one thing you mentioned that stood out to me was radical responsibility. And that's a phrase people love right up until the point it points back at them. A lot of people take here, you know, take responsibility for your actions and think immediately blame or shame or great. Now, this is my fault, too. But that's not really what we're talking about. So if you don't mind for me, break that down. What is radical responsibility when we're talking about mental health, trauma, burnout, and getting unstuck, if you will. Dr. Greg: Sure. So I have ⁓ training in a specific type of ⁓ theoretical orientation. It's called dialectical behavior therapy or dialectic behavior therapy sometimes. ⁓ DBT. And the woman that created it, Dr. Marsha Linehan, ⁓ she was very heavily influenced by a lot of Eastern philosophies. Mindfulness, Zen, Buddhism, all that stuff. And one of the things that I really appreciate about what she talks about, though I don't believe she uses this phrase. I'm pretty sure this is just a Greg special that I came up with. Or at least I'll say that until someone proves me otherwise, is this idea of radical responsibility. So when we think about the word radical, extreme, and we think about responsibility, owning our stuff, it is our jobs to own our stuff as best as we can to the the utmost that we can. The whole point of a dialectic is to take two or more opposing sides and to try and synthesize them into a new truth. It talks a lot about the power of and. We usually say but, right? ⁓ Chris, that was a great point, but you know I'm just invalidating everything that you just said. So when it comes to radical responsibility, yes, it is true that the world can get in our way, other people can get in our way, it can negatively influence us, and it is our job to own our stuff. Even if other people aren't gonna own their stuff, we need to own our stuff. Well, we don't need to, but if we want to live a better life, it would behoove us to own our stuff. Because the truth is that everyone on this planet is working through things that aren't necessarily their fault. I usually phrase it like this for those out there that are Billy Joel fans, you we didn't start the fire. ⁓ If you don't know the song, your homework is to go listen to it. You can forego the Fallout Boy sequel that came out a year two ago, because that one wasn't that great. But the chorus is, we didn't start the fire. It was always burning since the world's been turning. And that's true of all of us, that we've been thrust into a life where problems show up on our doorstep. We didn't cause them. It's oftentimes not fair that we have to deal with them. And also, if we don't deal with them, they're just gonna pile up and make our lives worse. So even if it is unfair, even if it's not something that you want to do, own your stuff. Okay, yeah, maybe this person pissed me off royally and they deserve the verbal tongue-lashing that I gave them, but you know what? I did not behave in a way that was really effective. So I need to own that. And even if they deserved it, I need to do something different in the future. Yes, it's true that my boss isn't really valuing me at work. That's not fair. And what are some ways that I can value myself? If it's that bad, maybe I need to find another job. Whatever the case may be, we can't just sit and blame everybody else. It's the classic... phrase if you've heard it, you know, when you point a finger at someone three point back at you, and that's the whole point of radical responsibility. It is a tough, bitter pill to swallow. And I think it's also a really hopeful optimistic thing because if we are in charge of us, yeah, sometimes we can look at that as man, I really fucked up and I just I did not do that thing really well. It can also mean that, well, I have the power to change that moving forward and I can do something different. So let's own our power. Let's take that and let's do something different. Chris Stockton: I love that theory. That's amazing. Dr. Greg: Well good, I'm glad. I happen to be partial to it too. Chris Stockton: What is the correct theory so So when someone comes to you and says I already know this, know, I just can't do it Where do you go from that next? Dr. Greg: ⁓ I'll take it. I'll take it. Well, they might already know it. ⁓ It's not like what I'm saying is some radically incredible new groundbreaking stuff. You know, I mean, even Linehan herself, like I mentioned, inspired by thousands of years of Eastern philosophies. So it could be that someone says that they know it, they think they know it. When they don't actually, there might be some ⁓ misunderstandings there. But let's just say for the sake of the thought experiment that they know. Well, knowing is, as they say, only half the battle. Like you need to actually be able to implement these skills. So I work with people and start out small. As an example, ⁓ the foundation of everything in DBT and various other treatments as well is mindfulness. So I'm gonna save you and your audience thousands of dollars on mindfulness seminars right here. So it's paying attention on purpose. to the present moment non-judgmentally. And I'll say it again, paying attention on purpose to the present moment non-judgmentally. By non-judgmentally, I mean focusing on the facts of the situation as they are, not as I want them to be. So in order for me to actually implement mindfulness into my daily life, just like going to the gym, You know, I'm not going to start by benching 300 pounds if I've never gone to the gym. I'm not going to start my mindfulness practice by shaving my head and becoming a monk and sitting on a mountaintop for 30 years. It's not going to work. We start small. So as an example, ⁓ how is the shirt on your skin feeling right now, Chris? Chris Stockton: Soft? Dr. Greg: soft, right? Yeah, perfect. Now I bet you that you hadn't even thought about what that shirt feels like on your skin until I said something about it. That's not a failing on your part. It just means that we're trying to increase that awareness. I would be concerned about you for another reason if you spent all day thinking about what that shirt feels like on your skin. Chris Stockton: or anything. Dr. Greg: The same is true for the audience. Chris Stockton: be doing that later today but it was Dr. Greg: Okay, all right. But, you know, it's that idea of we tend to just overlook or ignore or put our minds on autopilot. Everything's a habit. We just kind of keep going and multitask and not really focus on the present. I might start out by checking in on my clothing, right? How that feels on my skin. Another common one, I suspect you and hopefully everyone in your audience brushed their teeth this morning. ⁓ Did you brush your teeth and really be in the moment with it? Or was it brushing your teeth, listening to music, listening to a video, thinking about something else, moving over here? I'm guilty of it. You know, I do it too. And for most, it's probably going to be the latter. There was a lot of multitasking going on. Well, how long does it take to brush your teeth? One to two minutes, typically. So let me focus on this moment. Give me the gift of one to two minutes. with brushing my teeth. What does the weight of the toothbrush feel like? How do the bristles feel on our gums and on our teeth? What is the taste of the toothpaste in our mouths? Spend time with this experience and only this experience. Maybe you don't like the taste of your toothpaste. That's okay. We're being non-judgmental, right? We're just focusing on the situation as it is, not as we want it to be. If you notice your mind starts to wander, that's OK. You don't need to call yourself an idiot or dummy. Just gently bring it back to the moment. Congrats, you noticed you were mindful of the fact that your mind wandered and now you're able to bring it back. It sounds very simple. And it is simple in practice. Now think about how we can work and scale this up, just like moving from a five pound weight to a 10 pound weight, etc. Now I can take this and maybe use it with my meals. Now I can take it and maybe use it with, I don't know, going for a walk, being fully immersed in that walk. Now maybe I can use this in how I'm communicating with my spouse. What are some things that are going through my mind, emotions that I'm feeling, physiological reactions that might happen that can influence my communication? For instance, I'm probably not going to be all that willing to talk to someone if I'm sitting there all hunched up with my arms crossed. You know, so if I'm doing that, well, maybe that's why people have a hard time speaking with me. No need to judge ourselves, just recognize it's happening, then we can do something different. I can scale that up to, how am I feeling after this emergency call that just came in? What's going on in my mind? What's going on in my body? What do I need to do or tweak? to help me be more effective for the rest of my shift. You're not gonna be able to start there because if this is new and you've never done it before, you just don't have the skills. It's not that you're a dummy, you just don't have the skills. So let's start going to that mental gym. Let's start working on those small things so we can build up our capacity for mindfulness, bring it into our shift. That's just one example of skills that I start with people. in small ways and scale them up. There's all sorts of other ones that I could get into, but I recognize that that might be too much for an hour episode. Chris Stockton: ⁓ Man, I've loved this conversation with you. ⁓ I really appreciate the conversation. You know, we didn't drift into a bunch of bullshit, a bunch of fluff. This wasn't a, go take a damn bubble bath, get out of your trauma. ⁓ This was real, know, burnout is real, leadership failure is real, bad therapy is real, feeling trapped is real. ⁓ But so is responsibility, so is self-compassion, so is the action, and so is getting unstuck. Dr. Greg: Sure is. Chris Stockton: Before we close all this out, ⁓ tell people where they can find you, what kind of work you're doing now if you want to share that, and if you want the listeners to remember when they listen to this episode. Dr. Greg: Sure. ⁓ Well, first off again, thank you for having me on. It was a pleasure to be on and I hope I've served you and your audience in some way. ⁓ The best place for people to find me is my practice website, Royal Oasis Psychotherapy Institute. I didn't want people to type all that out, so it's royaloasispi.com. And there you can take a look at all of the virtual psychotherapy that I do. So... ⁓ part of an interstate compact I joined, I'm able to give therapy to, I believe it's up to 43 states now, as well as some territories. So unless you're in one of the holdouts, I'm sorry. But if you're not in one of the holdouts, I can absolutely see you for therapy. You can look at my specialties, my background a bit more. I also have a free ⁓ daily, what I call autopilot interrupt protocol. So. can download it. a PDF. It's got micro drills in there to help you start to increase your mindfulness capacity. I've got some premium meditations on a store there that people can purchase. And if you're unsure if you like it, I have a podcast called Meditations by Gregory T. Obert with over 150 free guided meditations, interviews by people who are doing great work. In fact, fairly recently, I had another first responder on actually, and we talked, which was great. And if you want to see some of the other content that I put out, I do a weekly live stream called Dark Psychology, where I delve into the sort of darker, seedier parts of the human brain. ⁓ And I also stream games with my wife. So if you want to see us scream at the zombies of Resident Evil 9 as we record this, that's what we're currently playing. You can see me make a fool of myself. So hopefully I'll see you over there. Yeah, thank you. Chris Stockton: That's Especially that dark therapy, that's pretty cool. Or dark psychology. I'm definitely gonna, and that's on YouTube, or that's on your website. Dr. Greg: So YouTube doesn't like it. So it's exclusively on Rumble and Twitter. But there is a link to it on my practice website. Chris Stockton: So thank you. I'm definitely going be watching that one because the dark psychology is very interesting to me. ⁓ Yeah, it's something that I don't think we really delve into until we start looking into psychology because of a lot of people are, in my opinion – I'm not a psychologist, so don't take this – everyone take this with a grain of salt – but ⁓ in my opinion, the… Dr. Greg: Appreciate it. A lot of people. Chris Stockton: The baseline that we study in medical school or even nursing school or possibly I've never been to med school, but med school ⁓ is just a base. know, once you delve further into it, it becomes a almost a rabbit hole, if you will, to dig into because of the vast majority of objectives there are that you can discover and find out and understand. And that's to me, it's that's the biggest thing in the world is to understand psychology. That's It has such a physiological standpoint on us. changes us mentally, physically, even if you believe in it, or as a people. And that's just, it's amazing. Dr. Greg: Yeah, I agree. There's a lot there. We don't always get to talk about it in school, even though we're in school for a thousand years. ⁓ So hopefully, you know, people want to learn a little bit more. It's out there and I appreciate anyone stopping by. Chris Stockton: Yes, sir. And to everybody listening, if this hits you good, sometimes that means it found the bruise. And if you're listening, if you're the one listening here at 2 a.m., feeling trapped, burned out, hell, pissed off, disconnected or just tired in a way that sleep doesn't fix it, hear me out clearly. You're not stuck forever. You're not weak for needing help. And you do not have to quietly just do it because this field taught you to laugh and suffer professionally, you know, reach out. Dr. Greg has therapy reach out to him reach out to someone in your area You know need help get 988 text or call them 988 lifeline org, you know So I appreciate everything Greg. Let me go ahead and hit stop Unless you've got something else you wanted to say Dr. Greg: Just to echo what you said, people don't need to be stuck in the dark, in the darkness. So please do reach out and get help. And I'm wishing everyone out there the best on their healing journeys. Chris Stockton: Thank you, sir.