Latest / Between Two Chairs - Demystifying Commercial Real Estate / How Commercial Real Estate Brokers Help Retail Businesses Expand | Tenant Representation, Site Selection & Franchise Growth with Lindsey Barden

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How Commercial Real Estate Brokers Help Retail Businesses Expand | Tenant Representation, Site Selection & Franchise Growth with Lindsey Barden · Between Two Chairs - Demystifying Commercial Real Estate

0:00
Welcome to Between Two Chairs, Demystifying Commercial
0:04
Real Estate, the podcast that brings you the
0:06
latest insights and trends on the South Florida
0:09
commercial real estate market with your hosts,
0:12
Fernando Arencivia Jr. and Jennifer Wolman. In
0:16
each episode, we dive into the world of commercial
0:18
real estate and break down complex concepts to
0:21
make them accessible for everyone. Whether you're
0:24
a real estate professional, a curious investor,
0:28
or just interested in the South Florida market
0:30
in general, Between Two Chairs is the podcast
0:32
for you. So pull up a chair and join us. Welcome
0:49
everybody to another episode of Between Two Chairs.
0:52
My name is Fernando Arencivia Jr. and with me
0:54
as always is the animal lover that is Jennifer
0:57
Woman. Jennifer, say hi. Hi, everybody. So, of
1:01
course, this is always the kinds of episodes
1:05
that we really look forward to and it is when
1:07
we have an amazing guest. And so, Jennifer, would
1:10
you do the honors and introduce? Lindsay do all
1:14
of us sure and I was gonna say this is the horse
1:16
episode But I have a horse necklace and there's
1:21
a beautiful horse behind not a real horse a horse
1:25
Our guests today, but let's just jump right in
1:31
So if you are involved in real estate or just
1:34
interested in retail real estate in specific
1:37
I think you're really gonna enjoy this episode
1:40
today and you're gonna leave with a ton of great
1:42
insights about what we call the fun asset class
1:46
and tenant representation especially. And I am
1:51
a huge, huge fan of our guest today. Our guest
1:55
today is Lindsay Barden and Lindsay is the principal
1:58
broker and co -founder of Dark Horse CRE, hence
2:02
the horse. And Dark Horse CRE is a boutique firm
2:07
in retail brokerage in Knoxville in East Tennessee.
2:10
And they specialize in tenant rep and user, which
2:15
we'll get into in a little bit. So we're going
2:18
to talk about niches. We're going to talk about
2:20
horses. We're going to talk about retail. So
2:23
let's just dive right in, Lindsay. Thank you
2:26
so much for joining us today. Thank you for having
2:29
me. Yeah, it's so much fun. I'm so excited when
2:32
you said yes. I'm like, she does. know me other
2:34
than the comments on Instagram that I'm constantly
2:38
posting. I'm down for it. Anything on social
2:40
media. Y 'all are all my friends. You're amazing
2:42
on social. So let's get started with you telling
2:45
us a little bit about yourself outside of CRE.
2:49
Where did you grow up? What kind of kid were
2:52
you? What were your hobbies, your interests,
2:54
et cetera? Sure, sure. Nobody really asked me
2:57
what I was like as a kid. So I grew up in Richmond,
3:01
Virginia. I obviously grew up with horses, but
3:06
I was a competitive figure skater growing up.
3:08
I also was a dancer, so did a little bit of competition
3:13
in dance, but from elementary school all the
3:16
way through high school and parts of college,
3:20
I was a competitive figure skater. So I traveled
3:22
up and down the East Coast. competing in competitions
3:25
and it was that was actually my first job as
3:29
a teenager was teaching ice skating lessons so
3:33
I feel fortunate I didn't have to like scoop
3:35
popcorn at the movie theater but and it taught
3:38
me a lot about time management because I had
3:42
to create my schedule and sort of monitor my
3:46
skaters. progress. So I was just a very competitive
3:50
kid growing up. So it led right into real estate
3:55
as a broker for sure. Great. And now you moved
3:59
to Knoxville. You live in Knoxville. So tell
4:02
us how what what brought on that move and what
4:05
made you form your own brokerage. So I actually
4:08
had my own brokerage in the Virginia market.
4:12
I covered central Virginia. all the way from
4:16
the Roanoke area to Hampton Road, everything
4:20
south of Fredericksburg. I opened Dark Horse
4:23
in 2017. And in 2023, my husband and I moved
4:28
to Knoxville, Tennessee, just looking for a different
4:31
lifestyle. And all of my family is from Knoxville.
4:34
So I grew up coming here for every SEC football
4:37
season and holidays. And my husband loved it.
4:42
So we decided to make the move in 2023. So it's
4:45
very familiar with the market. It has changed
4:47
a lot since I was a kid and just decided to really
4:52
hone in. I was already focusing mostly on tenant
4:55
representation, but when I expanded into East
4:58
Tennessee, just solely focused on tenant representation
5:02
here and I cover Knoxville down to Chattanooga
5:05
and the Tri -Cities area in East Tennessee. So
5:10
anything that's in Nashville or Memphis, I usually
5:12
refer out to other companies and brokers. Now
5:16
I understand how you were able to get such a
5:21
Deep understanding of the market in a short period
5:24
of time like how can someone become such an expert?
5:28
Basically on an area in two and a half years
5:30
in commercial real estate, right? So now I understand
5:34
the fact that you'd been traveling there You
5:35
kind of knew the market you were probably like
5:38
Fernando and I we seen wherever we travel We
5:40
always seem to be looking at zoning and and being
5:43
like, oh, that is a great zoning. Look at that
5:46
That's you know textbook zoning. So you probably
5:49
were already looking at Tennessee and during
5:52
your visits at Knoxville to Knoxville and stuff?
5:55
I was. I was. When I would come for football
5:58
games or any visit, I would see some cool concept
6:02
and I would be like, oh, we need that in Virginia
6:04
or sort of figure out what the new development
6:08
was happening. I'm just like you guys where you
6:11
travel. I recently traveled to Tulsa, Oklahoma
6:14
with a girlfriend and she was like, are you going
6:16
to keep taking pictures of random buildings?
6:19
Yes. really cool here in this like downtown area.
6:23
We need this in this area of East Tennessee.
6:26
So yes. I'm right there with you. That's awesome.
6:29
So in commercial real estate, everybody, as soon
6:33
as you get in, they're like, you have to pick
6:35
a niche, niche, niche, niche, niche, right? Everyone
6:37
puts that into your head. So your niche is really
6:41
on the user side of retail, right? You do mostly
6:44
tenant rep, but you also do buyer rep, et cetera.
6:48
Can you tell us a little bit about how you decided
6:51
what you were going to focus on when you first
6:54
got started? Were you generalist? totally different
6:57
asset class, et cetera. And then we can get into
7:00
some of the specifics of how to choose your niche
7:03
and what being a tenant rep in retail is. Sure,
7:08
sure. So in college, I was a real estate major
7:12
and I was fortunate to have an advisor that introduced
7:14
me to for my internship. a retail developer.
7:19
So I interned with a retail developer for a period
7:21
of time before I graduated. Really fell in love
7:25
with the retail component of real estate. However,
7:29
the development side was a little bit slow in
7:32
terms of being married to one. project for two
7:36
years and not really working on anything else.
7:39
They saw that and fortunately they had some really
7:43
great connections with larger brokerage firms
7:45
and introduced me to a local CNW office in central
7:50
Virginia and I was with them for about seven
7:52
years. I just focused on the retail side but
7:55
did landlord and tenant representation but through
7:59
the time with them really gravitated towards
8:03
the tenant. side of the business. At one point,
8:06
I had 30 listings and 10 or 12 tenants that I
8:10
was running with, but the tennis side really
8:13
grew in my business and I really gravitated towards
8:16
that relationship building of doing not just
8:20
one location with one individual, doing five.
8:25
10 rollout stores in a market. So as I opened
8:30
up my own shop that continued to grow, I also
8:33
work with the developers of those users, buying
8:37
pad sites or larger parcels and helping that
8:41
development side. I really sort of just gravitated
8:45
towards the tenant representation. developer
8:49
representation in the market. I will say that
8:52
I always felt like I was negotiating twice, which
8:55
was my biggest thing on the landlord side. I
8:57
felt like I was negotiating with the landlords
9:01
to convince them what the market was like and
9:04
then negotiating with the tenant themselves.
9:09
I felt like I was part of a team on the tenant
9:11
side. That is so interesting. So let's back up
9:14
a second because I have so many questions. But
9:16
the first one is, you know, one of the things
9:18
that we always talk about commercial real estate
9:21
is there's no two deals are ever the same. If
9:25
you're looking at it as a box of toys or so many
9:27
things or so many different things that to play
9:30
with, you know, you have all these different
9:31
asset classes. So. First, why retail? What is
9:35
it that you like about retail just overall? I
9:38
feel like I know retail, you know, as a shopper
9:43
and understanding sort of how they merchandise
9:48
products. You know, when I was in college, I
9:52
came home between my. sophomore and junior year
9:56
and there was an entire area of a retail corridor
9:59
that had once been cow pastures and then there
10:02
was a massive target development that was underway
10:05
and I was like that's kind of interesting I would
10:07
kind of be into why that was developed there
10:10
and just I've always sort of watched people and
10:15
how they navigate areas and shopping malls and
10:20
retail centers and been really curious about
10:24
why they make decisions that they do. So I just
10:28
feel like I understood it. Whereas like the office
10:31
side, you know, I felt like, okay, it needs to
10:33
be 20 minutes from their home or the industrial
10:36
side. It needs the right size doors. And I just
10:40
felt like there were so many different components
10:42
to the retail. I was never going to get bored.
10:46
And, you know, I just understood that from being
10:50
such a watcher, the retail component and why
10:53
things made sense, why a McDonald's wanted to
10:56
this corner, why Ulta wants to be next to these
11:00
tenants. Co -tenancy wise, it just makes sense
11:03
to me. Yeah, it's really interesting because
11:06
it's really the place where people interact the
11:09
most. with commercial real estate is all the
11:11
retail that is around us. You know, your interaction
11:15
with logistics and office, it's you have a different
11:18
relationship with those places than you do with
11:22
retail. So that that makes a lot of sense to
11:24
me. And, you know, it's interesting you mentioned
11:27
before, but we always talk to our agents that
11:29
the thing about our business is that we have
11:31
two points of sale. First, you got to convince
11:34
the person that you're helping, that you're the
11:35
right person for the job. Then you have to do
11:38
the job. Right. And you have to bring it home.
11:42
And I really like that idea that of you mentioning,
11:45
well, I had to negotiate with two people. But
11:48
in when I'm a tenant rep, I feel like I'm part
11:50
of a team. So speak, speak a little bit on that,
11:52
because I think that's a really interesting way
11:55
to cement. OK, this is kind of where I want to
12:00
build my business and where I want to play. But
12:03
within that. This is the kind of thing that I
12:06
that I'm really more eager to do. Yeah, sure.
12:09
So, you know, when I was doing landlord work,
12:11
I would have landlords that maybe had a class
12:14
B shopping center, but they were in love with
12:16
Starbucks and they wanted a Starbucks and Starbucks
12:19
wasn't going to go there. And just convincing
12:21
them of that was difficult for me. When I get
12:25
a tenant that I work with, I try to dig in and
12:28
really understand. who their clients are, what
12:33
drives their sales, what type of sub -market
12:36
is really going to be beneficial for them to
12:39
enter the market. for location number one, two,
12:42
three, four, five, so that they're not going
12:44
in a secondary market and not getting that wow
12:47
factor entering into, let's say, Knoxville or
12:51
Chattanooga to really create that momentum. So
12:55
I spend a lot of time understanding, you know,
12:58
their concept as a whole. And then when I go
13:01
into the market, I really study what the public
13:06
is doing to find out where those people are and
13:10
By creating that atmosphere in my business model,
13:13
I feel like I'm part of their team. I'm invested
13:17
in their business. I want them to be successful
13:19
when they sign franchise deals that are, you
13:22
know, three, five unit deals. I want them to
13:25
do all of them. I want that first location to
13:27
be such a success that they can continue building
13:31
quickly and get to that. that number of units
13:35
that they allocated. This is very eye -opening
13:37
to me because I always thought that it was the
13:40
landlord that would curate the shopping center
13:42
but what I hear from you is almost like you're
13:45
curating that for the tenant to say go here not
13:49
there because of all the other conditions so
13:53
all the things that a landlord would consider
13:55
you're asking them to consider as a tenant. Yes.
13:58
And I think that's so impactful. Yes, absolutely.
14:02
I mean, it's not necessarily the landlords who
14:06
are creating traffic patterns and why people
14:10
like... a certain shopping center over another
14:13
unless it's driven by specifically co -tenancy.
14:17
You know, if a tenant next to the building has
14:20
failed over and over and over again, it just
14:22
gives it this flavor that, you know, the public
14:24
starts saying, okay, this one's going to go in.
14:27
How long is this one going to last? And you need
14:29
that sort of understanding when you're working
14:32
with these tenants and retailers to shape. sort
14:37
of their development plan. So it sounds to me
14:39
like you work more with, are you, do you see
14:43
yourself working more with franchises or do you
14:46
do a lot of small businesses? Because I know
14:50
putting a small business, especially a first
14:52
time small business into a space is, is harder.
14:56
Can you talk about which one you do more of?
15:00
And also the differences between working with
15:04
a first time business opening their first location
15:08
versus one that's either expanding or part of
15:11
a franchise. Sure. So when I started in the business,
15:14
I worked with a lot of like local mom and pops,
15:17
one location, one off. And as I've continued
15:22
to grow my business, now I. almost exclusively
15:25
work with multi unit operators. Now some of those
15:29
operators are first time franchisees for the
15:33
brand, but they're not first time business owners
15:36
typically, but they need sort of that initial
15:39
understanding of the market and how the brand
15:43
operates. So the majority of the operators that
15:47
I'm working with are franchise driven, or it's
15:50
a corporate company where they're all corporate
15:52
owned stores. unless I'm working with, again,
15:56
a developer who has a relationship with a retailer
16:00
or sourcing sites for that retailer and the retailer
16:03
might own them all or they might be then sending
16:07
a franchisee to each location. But again, most
16:12
of what I do now is a multi rollout. So they're
16:14
new to the East Tennessee market or they're just
16:17
entering and have done maybe one or two locations
16:19
and they need more of a plan overall to where
16:23
do we go next? What some market is most important
16:26
for us to enter into now? And what's the plan
16:30
in five and eight years for? role applications.
16:34
So did your business naturally kind of move in
16:38
that progression right from the small individual
16:42
mom and pop into these multi -unit stores or
16:45
was that a conscious decision on your part that
16:49
you said I'm going to focus on these tenants?
16:53
It was more of a conscious you know I wanted
16:56
to build relationships long term with my clients
16:59
and when I started working with some of these
17:03
franchisees and we were looking at multiple units
17:05
at the same time or multiple locations at the
17:09
same time. I understood that we were creating
17:12
more of that team atmosphere. We were working
17:14
as a team to develop something over a period
17:17
of three to five years. And I really liked that
17:20
aspect of having a client long -term, not just
17:24
getting to the lease and saying, okay, it's time
17:26
to buy, I'm out. But really being part of their
17:30
process and their growth plan. and their success
17:34
in the market. Did any of your individual first
17:38
-time small business owners when you first started
17:41
leasing to, you know, retail leasing in Knoxville,
17:45
did they, did any of them end up expanding and
17:49
becoming one of those multi -location tenants
17:52
or for the most part, did they stay single operator?
17:56
I will say that not in Knoxville yet because
17:59
I've only been here for two and a half, three
18:02
years. In Virginia, yes, but more so when they
18:06
purchased let's say one unit of a franchise concept.
18:09
And then they were successful at that one location
18:12
and then decided to buy a three unit package
18:14
and open three more units. You know, I haven't
18:18
really worked with anybody yet that has opened
18:20
a sort of off the cuff concept and then went
18:25
and tried to franchise it at a later date. The
18:28
franchise laws in Virginia are a little bit challenging,
18:31
so I can see that happening here in East Tennessee
18:33
more than I could in Virginia. And since it was
18:36
a conscious decision to move in that direction,
18:40
how did you go about doing that? I mean, franchisees
18:44
tend to be part, you know, obviously the franchisor
18:47
is huge. A lot of times they have their own in
18:50
-house real estate team. How did you? become
18:55
that person or how did you navigate being a franchisee
19:01
rep for a larger chain? Sure. Well, my cold calling
19:05
changed for one. I was calling mom and pops to
19:10
try to represent them who are existing in the
19:12
market, who either needed to open that second
19:14
location or I was trying to get them to open
19:16
a second location. You know, my networking went
19:20
to more ICSCs and retail lives where you're just
19:25
coming in contact with those multi -unit operators
19:29
and just developing. my knowledge of the market
19:34
and as a whole understanding where franchisees
19:38
or where retailers should be placing multiple
19:41
units, making sure that they're far enough apart
19:44
and they're capturing different sub markets,
19:47
what a rollout plan looks like. So understanding
19:51
that aspect is a little bit different than somebody
19:54
who just knows one corridor. very, very, very
19:58
well, or they just specialize in one area of
20:02
the market. I typically cover a much larger area
20:05
than most brokers. Most brokers will just focus
20:08
on Knoxville, or they'll just focus on Chattanooga.
20:11
But these franchisees typically sign on for a
20:16
much larger territory to make sure that they
20:19
have the opportunities to do multi units. making
20:24
sure I knew the market in order for those rollout
20:27
plans to be successful when I'm going to pitch
20:29
myself to these retailers was really important
20:32
in changing that concept of my business. You
20:35
probably have great instincts. I'm sure that
20:38
you can walk into or tour a site and instantly
20:42
know if this is going to be a fit or not a fit.
20:45
But it sounds to me like you have been very data
20:49
driven in your understanding of the marketplace.
20:53
We try to kind of demystify commercial real estate
20:55
here. So I guess that the way the way I would
20:58
like to phrase this question is, is there a data
21:00
point that you feel it's maybe overestimated,
21:03
overutilized, and maybe it doesn't really move
21:05
the needle? And is there is there a data point
21:08
that you feel is kind of like, pardon the pun,
21:11
like a dark horse of really understanding, hey,
21:14
this is really how you decide whether to pull
21:17
the trigger or not. And that, you know, that
21:20
most people ignore. I won't say that there's
21:22
a data point that really pulls the trigger for
21:27
everybody because I think every concept is different
21:29
and everybody's client is different or customer
21:34
is different. I will say that there's something,
21:37
there's a gap between local knowledge and sometimes
21:41
what the corporate retailer seas, they want to
21:45
see, you know, a certain number of people in
21:48
a three mile radius ring or they want to understand
21:51
what the 10 minute drive time is. And sometimes
21:56
that becomes a hurdle when coming into a market
22:00
and not understanding traffic patterns, growth
22:04
patterns. You know, a three mile radius ring
22:07
in Knoxville is going to be completely different
22:10
than a three mile radius ring in Nashville. and
22:13
the rent in Knoxville is gonna be much lower
22:16
than it is in Nashville. So your sales might
22:20
be comparable, but when you're looking at actual
22:23
data on a demographic sheet, it might not check
22:27
that box at the population level that you want,
22:30
but it trades so differently. So it's really
22:34
important for me to get clients actually in my
22:37
car, drive them through these centers and show
22:40
them There's your client, there's the mom in
22:43
the yoga pants that's buying the coffee and she's
22:48
got to pick her kids up. So she's going to come
22:49
back through this drive -through before she heads
22:51
home, is your client, you know, the business
22:55
owner that needs a quick lunch, understanding
22:58
like that AM and PM traffic, which you can't
23:01
see. There's no data that really shows that.
23:05
to the exact. You've got to live and breathe
23:08
and be in those shopping centers. So I always
23:12
think it's important to not necessarily ignore
23:15
the data but take it with a grain of salt, the
23:18
actual data points and get them in the car. and
23:21
have them look at where their clients and customers
23:24
are shopping. That's so true. And it's funny
23:26
that you mentioned Tulsa, Oklahoma, because I
23:28
spent a week in Tulsa a lifetime ago. And I remember
23:32
that we would we would traverse very long distances,
23:35
but it was a very short drive time just because
23:37
it was wide open road. So it was a very different
23:40
experience than you are in a highly dense city.
23:43
So to your point, that totally shifts the pattern.
23:46
You can't apply the same expectation. from market
23:51
to market because it's so diverse. Right. Absolutely.
23:55
And understanding where the growth is going.
23:58
I mean, you need a local resource to tell you
24:00
that. When a traffic pattern is about to change
24:04
because there's two anchor stores that are going
24:06
east instead of west and, you know, knowing that
24:09
pre -development weather. T dot or V dot is going
24:13
to make a major road improvement that's going
24:15
to adjust some of the shopping patterns. So yeah,
24:20
just looking at a 10 minute drive time or a three
24:23
mile population. The population with the radius
24:26
rings is a big one for me too, because when you're
24:29
looking at an actual site, many times the retail
24:32
corridor is impacting the population because
24:35
in that one mile ring, you're not getting a lot
24:37
of population because it's all big box stores
24:40
and it's the retail corridor itself so you really
24:43
need to go out further to get the actual population
24:47
that is trading that corridor or market. And
24:49
I think you did a great post on street cuts.
24:55
and curb cuts and how, and I think those are
24:59
data points that, like a lot of the franchise
25:01
documents that I've looked at, they don't really
25:04
talk about that. They're not looking at that.
25:07
So if they're looking at specific data points,
25:10
they might be focusing on the center of that
25:12
to your point in that post if that cut changes.
25:17
then everything changes. Can you talk a little
25:20
bit and expand? Do you know which post I'm talking
25:22
about? I think so. It was probably how when you're
25:28
looking at a site, if you have a median cut that
25:31
certainly appears and you are getting all of
25:35
these left -hand turns or you're getting your
25:38
drive -through jammed up because now your access
25:40
has changed, that can completely adjust your
25:44
model. and how many people you can get through
25:48
your, you know, drive through in a certain amount
25:50
of time. So when you look at a site and it seems
25:54
perfect today, but you know it's in maybe a greener
25:58
area or there's future development plans, you
26:02
have to think about, is this site still gonna
26:04
work if they throw a median in the middle of
26:06
that road and no one can take a left? They got
26:08
a U -turn around and where are they gonna have
26:11
to U -turn around? Is the next light? a half
26:14
a mile up and my competitor, they're gonna hit
26:16
before I get there. So just thinking long -term
26:20
because these leases are 10, 15 year deals. Just
26:24
making sure that you're checking all those boxes
26:26
now when you're doing the deal so you're not
26:29
in a jam in five years when population has, especially
26:32
in East Tennessee or in Tennessee as a whole,
26:34
we've just got so much influx. that is that going
26:39
to change? What is the reputation of Knoxville?
26:41
Is it more of a college town or has that shifted,
26:45
grown? You're speaking about growth, so I think
26:47
it's a good segue into what you envision to be
26:51
the future of Knoxville. Sure. I would say that
26:55
we used to be sort of, you know, the UT college
26:58
town or known as that we weren't. And for a long
27:02
time, we were kind of the redheaded stepsister
27:05
to Nashville. You know, we weren't as exciting
27:07
and we didn't have Broadway and all the music
27:10
and just not as much growth. But we're really
27:14
getting attention because, you know, the cost
27:16
of living is. lower here in Knoxville. You're
27:20
getting a ton of institutional landlords that
27:24
are now looking at the market. You have a lot
27:27
of new businesses that are coming and relocating
27:30
because it's less expensive for them to move
27:33
their business here in East Tennessee or Knoxville
27:36
versus Nashville, especially for their employees,
27:39
if they have to move their employees. you know,
27:41
housing costs or whatnot. So, you know, our reputation
27:46
is definitely on the up and getting a lot of
27:50
action from the retailers as well. If I could
27:52
just come up with more space, that would be great.
27:55
We have a we have a very, very tight market here.
27:58
Has Morgan Wallen opened a bar in Knoxville already?
28:01
Not yet, but we have a massive, massive development
28:05
underway that will be set right next to the university.
28:10
Um on the river and it's it'll have a hundred
28:13
thousand square feet of entertainment and restaurant
28:15
space. Um, so I can imagine there will be some
28:18
component of that that will be you know, it's
28:21
a music bar or tell Kenny Chesney to you know,
28:25
fly back to and just you know, settle in the
28:27
river. Right, right. They you know, they sell
28:30
out those Neyland Stadium uh concert. So why
28:33
not? Exactly. On the tenant rep side, since you
28:37
do so much work beforehand, I mean, like just
28:40
talking about how you tour them around, showing
28:42
them not the spaces, but the community, the center,
28:46
the nuances of each one. Do you do tenant exclusives?
28:53
Do you have your all client sign an exclusive?
28:57
No. I don't think I have ever had a tenant sign
29:01
an exclusive with me. You know, I develop a relationship
29:04
with them and become part of their team. But
29:08
if there's ever a time that they feel like they
29:10
want to leave or, you know, work with somebody
29:13
else or I feel that I'm not the right fit. And
29:17
I've certainly had occasions where I have, you
29:20
know, I'm not the best fit for this type of concept
29:24
or your strategy. You know, sometimes if I feel
29:29
like it's just going sideways, I will take a
29:31
step back and say I think you need to work with
29:33
somebody else. So I do not sign exclusives. I
29:37
want to be part of their team and all of us moving
29:39
in the same direction. And a lot of my clients
29:44
are not local. You know a good majority. I'm
29:48
picking up at the airport. We're doing an entire
29:51
day tour. Maybe they're spending the night We're
29:53
doing another day tour and then I'm dropping
29:55
them back off at the airport. So they're not
29:56
local They're they're using me as their sole
30:00
resource here in East, Tennessee So do you get
30:04
those types of clients who said you're cold -calling
30:07
change? Are you calling the franchisor and saying
30:10
hey, I heard you're expanding in East Tennessee
30:15
or Knoxville, can you can you kind of walk us
30:18
through how you get those clients and then how
30:21
ICSE because it's funny this month's theme is
30:25
building the American dream and that's why you
30:27
know we figured tenant rep is small business
30:29
owners etc but next month's theme is community
30:33
building and I think you're the perfect one to
30:36
end July and go into August because you're on
30:39
that cusp right so how do you call and speak
30:43
directly to franchisers to get the clients and
30:46
then they send the franchisees to you or? Typically,
30:52
yes. I will say that A lot of my business comes
30:56
from referrals from past clients or past retailers
31:00
that I've worked with or retail directors that
31:02
are in -house within corporate. And then they've
31:06
jumped ship or moved to another retail concept
31:09
and they'll pick up the phone and say, hey, Lindsay,
31:11
you helped me open 10 units in this market previously.
31:16
I'm now working for whatever it is. use me as
31:20
their local resource again. When I do pick up
31:23
the phone, it is directly to the franchisor or
31:26
the corporate company. And most of the time,
31:29
they're not here. It's a new concept I've heard
31:31
of that's coming out of California or Texas.
31:35
And I think it would be a great fit for Knoxville
31:39
or East Tennessee. And I'm pitching them constantly
31:43
before they even decide on Tennessee. Typically,
31:47
you know that we're not there yet, you know,
31:48
we haven't decided and I'm continually following
31:51
up because I know that they'll be successful
31:53
here so that when they do Have a franchisee for
31:57
the market Or you know, they do decide to expand
32:01
here. They have a resource already So I offer
32:06
you know, if you ever are interested in the market
32:09
happy to jump on the phone walk you through an
32:11
aerial you know, whatever it is to help you understand
32:15
if it is if you feel like it would be a fit for
32:18
expansion. And you mentioned Tulsa that you were
32:21
always when you were there, you were taking pictures
32:23
of stuff. Do you go to other markets and see
32:26
a concept and be like, oh, my gosh, I'm thinking
32:28
of salty dough. Salty Donut, you know, they opened
32:32
in Nashville, but I'm thinking of how they started
32:35
in Wynwood and then they started expanding. So
32:39
do you ever go to a place like Miami and say,
32:42
oh, my gosh, I would love to have this. They
32:44
would be such a good fit and then just call the
32:47
owner or the franchiser. I do. Absolutely. I.
32:51
I went to High Point, I guess it was earlier
32:55
this year and ran across a concept and thought
32:58
that would be really great here. So I picked
33:00
up the phone, figured out who the contact was,
33:04
found their master broker, made the connection
33:07
because I knew that they would be a good fit.
33:09
They are not ready to expand now, but. Yes, you
33:14
know, it was just driving to High Point that,
33:17
you know, where I saw the concept. Anytime I
33:19
travel, I'm looking around if something looks
33:22
like it's not a one, you know, location shop
33:27
or maybe it potentially would be a franchise
33:30
driven concept. I'm picking up the phone and
33:32
introducing myself, just finding out about the
33:34
concept, you know, Googling everything I can
33:37
about how many locations they have and where
33:39
they are and what their expanded track has looked
33:42
like. I have to apologize, Lindsay, because my
33:45
partner, as we told you, we just moved into a
33:48
new office and we actually have a salty donut
33:50
downstairs and we haven't we haven't visited
33:54
yet at all. We haven't had breakfast. I didn't
33:57
hear anything but donuts. All I could think of
34:00
was right after this recording, we're going downstairs
34:03
to get a donut. Now you know why I love retail.
34:07
It's like you always talk about food. I'm like,
34:10
well, food is part of retail. It's one of the
34:12
apps. When I'm walking into these shopping centers,
34:16
I'm shopping. I'm walking in. That's where I
34:20
get a lot of my data too. I'm spending time in
34:23
you know, the boutique stores or the restaurants
34:26
and I'm asking the employees questions, you know,
34:29
how's business? Are there heavier days? How do
34:33
you like your landlord? That's a great one. I
34:37
love that scoop. So just getting those data points
34:42
from the existing tenants is ideal. Just to kind
34:47
of piggyback on your relationship building with
34:50
this franchise franchise source, do you also
34:52
attend any any franchise conferences? Are there
34:56
any that that are that are worth your time? I
34:58
have not attended specific franchise conferences.
35:01
I would love to. They just have thus far backed
35:06
right up next to an ICSE or a retail live. So
35:09
it's on my list for next year. But there's there's
35:14
the IFA, which is the I think the International
35:17
Franchise Association. They have a couple scattered
35:20
throughout the year that I would love to attend.
35:23
But really right now it's Where the retailers
35:27
are at ICSC and retail live locations or conferences
35:31
and tell us a little bit about ICSC Which ones
35:34
you go to how you work the conference? Etc and
35:40
same thing with retail live sure because they're
35:43
a little bit different. They're both deal with
35:45
retail, but they're set up differently they are
35:48
so I I leave my conferences for future clients
35:56
and prospecting. I typically don't go to an ICSC
36:00
or a retail live and meet with existing clients
36:04
to review deals. I feel like technology has come
36:07
far enough along that we're on Zooms every week
36:09
or I can easily contact them and we can push
36:13
these deals forward. If I need them to be in
36:16
front of a landlord face -to -face, I feel like
36:18
the Zoom or teams call to do that now. So when
36:22
I'm going to an ICSC or retail live, I am just
36:27
trying to make connections with retailers that
36:29
aren't here yet and trying to understand would
36:33
they be a good fit, trying to understand their
36:35
expansion models. When I go into the conferences,
36:39
I'll scan the attendee list ahead of time and
36:44
sort of make a short list of who I definitely
36:46
want to see. and network with, but I try not
36:51
to pigeonhole myself too much with meetings.
36:55
ICSC Vegas is the hardest to do that just because
36:59
everyone has... you know, for so many years just
37:02
booked their schedule. So it's hard not to, if
37:04
you want to meet with somebody, not go ahead
37:07
and schedule a meeting up in advance. Retail
37:09
Live is very different where it's more casual.
37:12
You can hit 40 retailers in four hours and get
37:15
all the information that you need without setting
37:18
any meetings at all. But I'm using those conferences
37:22
as prospecting tools for Knoxville and my own
37:27
business. Because even if they're not going to
37:30
work with me, I need to know if we are on their
37:34
radar. And so both ICSC and Retail Live have
37:38
multiple conferences. I know you said you went
37:41
to you go to ICSC Vegas. What feeder markets
37:46
do you go to in terms of ICSC and retail live?
37:50
Do you try to go to all of them? Do you alternate
37:53
every, I don't know, every year with, okay, this
37:56
year I'm going to do Vegas and New York and Florida,
37:59
but I'm not going to do some of the other. How
38:01
do you figure out? Sure. Which area, which ones
38:05
you're going to go to? So I've always gone to
38:07
Vegas. I think this past year was my like 18th
38:10
Vegas. And I Typically go to New York. I haven't
38:15
the last couple years that ICSE has transitioned.
38:18
In my opinion, there are fewer actual retailers
38:21
there and it's more institutional landlord heavy.
38:24
So when I was going, the landlords were trying
38:28
to schedule meetings with me to talk about my
38:32
tenants in their shopping centers, which I felt
38:35
wasn't a beneficial use of my time. They could
38:38
pick up the phone and call me in my office in
38:40
Knoxville. So for ICSE, I'll consider going to
38:45
Charlotte and I'll consider going to Atlanta
38:47
because that's where the retail reps that would
38:51
cover Tennessee will be. But outside of that,
38:54
I typically always go to Vegas. And then for
38:58
retail live, I go to Nashville as well as the
39:02
one that is in Florida. When you get outside
39:05
of the southeast or within, you know, too far
39:08
away from your home state, the retail reps that
39:12
attend those conferences, if it's more of a regional
39:15
or local conference, they're not going to be
39:17
the same retail rep that covers your state. So
39:19
there's a disconnect in that personal introduction
39:23
at the show, which is what I'm going for. So
39:26
they can see me in person and have a conversation.
39:29
and we can talk about the market. Awesome. Thank
39:32
you for that because I know people work conferences
39:35
differently and have different reasons for going.
39:38
So thank you for sharing that. You are, I've
39:41
got to say, one of my favorite Instagram. Dark
39:45
Horse CRE is one of my favorite Instagram accounts
39:48
to follow. I appreciate that. Because you and
39:52
everybody needs to follow Lindsay. It's Dark
39:56
Horse CRE on Instagram. I don't want to use the
39:59
word authentic because I feel like that word
40:01
has been so overused. So I'm going to use one
40:04
of your own self -describable words, which is
40:08
crunchy. And Just the amount of information,
40:13
how you portray it, I'm assuming you probably
40:15
do use some AI for your postings, but you can't
40:19
tell that you're using AI, so you've obviously
40:23
done a really good job of making sure the content
40:26
is yours, the voice is yours, and you're one
40:29
of the few people in CRE on Instagram, in my
40:35
opinion, that really... is like the whole package,
40:38
right? You show your personal, I love the one,
40:41
I'm telling you, my stalker -dom is going to
40:43
show. Did you haul one with you and your husband?
40:47
That was hilarious. Yes, yes. Following you and
40:51
your horse back riding. So tell me a little bit.
40:55
about Instagram, when you started, how you started,
40:59
how you can be you, right? Because for me, it's
41:03
uncomfortable to be me on Insta, right? I'm always
41:06
trying to be the professional, but you are so
41:08
crunchy. Well, thank you. I feel like in order
41:15
to be successful with my clients. It's best if
41:19
they know what they're getting into. So if I
41:21
can show them my personality and what's important
41:25
to me and the good, bad and ugly, I'm kind of
41:28
a no filter person anyways. You know, I feel
41:31
like showing that on Instagram and LinkedIn is
41:37
important because if they're going to do business
41:39
with me, you know, I want them to know, you know,
41:43
what's important to me because if it doesn't...
41:47
look like it's a good match just by following
41:50
me on Instagram or, you know, some of my posts.
41:53
We probably aren't going to work well together.
41:56
You know, I'm very sarcastic and I try to find
42:00
humor in things, but I also am very opinionated
42:05
and, you know, we'll share the good, bad and
42:07
ugly about anything. So I'm not going to just
42:10
tell you why it's great and why we should do
42:14
this side and. you know, it checks these boxes.
42:17
I'm going to tell you why it doesn't too. And
42:20
I feel like by sharing my personality through
42:24
social media, it, you know, the clients that
42:26
gravitate towards that or the people that gravitate
42:29
towards that are going to tend to, we're going
42:31
to work really well together and be a really
42:33
good team. So I try not to be so professional
42:36
that it's just cut and dry. And when you meet
42:38
me that, you know, this person is totally different
42:42
than, you know, they're living in my car for
42:44
you know, 12 hours from the airport. So I hope
42:48
that they get a little piece of me before they
42:50
jump in my car. And you obviously clean out your
42:53
car, which is your. office and command center
42:56
before you pick them up because I've heard some
42:58
of your car stories, too. Well, I do. You know,
43:01
I got to make sure the the saddle pads out so
43:05
they're not smelling horse the whole time. Well,
43:06
I mean, it's called the fun asset class for a
43:09
reason. There's got to be some fun in there.
43:11
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We like trying out new
43:14
restaurants and, you know, just having fun with
43:18
it. Absolutely. Because. You know, that's what
43:20
gravitates their customers to if their concepts
43:23
not fun and, you know, ever evolving. If, you
43:27
know, it's not exciting, people are going to
43:29
shop there. So I have a selfish question to ask.
43:33
So my wife and I, we have two daughters and for
43:36
10 years we traveled all around the country because
43:39
they were both competitor competitive cheerleaders.
43:43
And you are a competitive ice skater for a big
43:47
part of your life. I wonder what lessons you
43:50
took from that experience that you can correlate
43:54
to to your success, not only in business, but
43:58
in life, you know, just just overall how how
44:01
that helped shaped you. Sure. I will say I'm
44:05
not good at taking a no because of my competitive
44:07
skating. When you're learning a new technique
44:11
or a new jump or adding a rotation to something,
44:14
you're gonna fall a million times. So I'm okay
44:17
with failure. I have a hard time with opportunity
44:23
loss because I didn't take the chance versus
44:28
getting the no. That doesn't bother me. So I
44:32
feel like... You know, when I entered into real
44:35
estate 20 years ago and I was, you know, picking
44:38
up the phone, doing the old school cold calling
44:40
like the nose did not bother me or going up to
44:43
some random person and asking for data. It just,
44:46
you know, I'm used to having to fall and fall
44:51
and fall and fall fall before I get that answer.
44:54
So just that sort of workhorse of. getting to
44:59
the finish line or the bottom line of whatever
45:03
I'm seeking definitely came from skating. Persistence,
45:08
I guess you could say. So it's so funny, I love
45:12
these interviews and the fact that Fernando and
45:14
I don't, because that was in the back of my mind,
45:16
his question, like sometimes we're in each other's
45:18
brains, but mine was more because you mentioned
45:21
that figure skating also helped with time management
45:24
and everything else. Mine, because of my love
45:27
of horses, was on the horse side. And so within
45:30
competitive skating, I imagine that's you being
45:33
competitive, not only with other skaters, but
45:36
with yourself. But with horsemanship, you're...
45:40
It's not a competition between you and the horse,
45:43
right? So tell me a similar question to Fernando's.
45:47
What does horseback riding bring to your, one,
45:52
to your state of mind? And then, two, how does
45:57
the lessons that you learn riding and becoming
46:02
one with the horse? transfer to what you do in
46:07
retail real estate? Well, it's definitely very
46:10
different. You know, I felt like when I was a
46:12
figure skater, everything was in my control.
46:14
Whether I landed that jump, it was whether I
46:16
tried enough in practice and, you know, did it
46:21
enough to make sure that it was landed and accurate
46:25
when I was in competition. What? riding horses
46:28
has taught me is that you can't control everything.
46:31
You know, your partner and the other person on
46:35
the deal or the landlord, you know, when you're
46:38
riding a horse, you're working with somebody
46:41
else, one that doesn't communicate the same way
46:44
you do and has a mind of its own that you can't
46:48
always control. So understanding, you know, nothing
46:51
is in my control really, even though I think
46:54
I can control. um you know many aspects so that's
46:59
really what i pull from the horses is you know
47:02
understanding that not everything is in my my
47:04
control ride through the messy which was something
47:06
that i learned recently just continuing to push
47:09
through um the ugly um to get to the finish line
47:14
um and you know when i'm in the saddle i can
47:20
only think about riding i can't think about anything
47:22
else You know, I recently hit the dirt in a lesson.
47:27
So I'm just trying to stay on and, you know,
47:30
progress with my partner, which is my horse.
47:34
And, you know, getting to getting some momentum
47:37
and progressing and, you know, whatever we're
47:40
trying to do. But I can only think about what
47:42
I'm like riding. I can't think about work. I
47:45
can't think. You know, when you're driving down
47:46
the road, you've got a million things going on.
47:48
And, you know, when I'm in the gym, I can think
47:51
about work and I can answer emails. But. When
47:54
I'm writing, that's not the case. I wish I'd
47:56
interviewed you way before I took my last horrific
48:00
fall because I've been writing my whole life
48:03
and I was... You know, I was out there, I was
48:06
enjoying, I was totally not connected with the
48:08
horse. I was just in the moment. Oh my God, I
48:11
ate it bad. I was in a body brace for like six
48:13
months. So yeah. Oh no. I'm still kind of limping
48:18
on one foot, but that's not stopping me from
48:20
riding. You know, we fall off and we still ride.
48:23
So I think that's super important. The focus,
48:26
you know, sometimes you're in something where
48:28
you can be multitasking. You really have to be
48:31
focused a hundred percent. And that's probably
48:32
like when you're having your first conversations
48:35
with a client or something, right? You can't
48:37
be thinking about the future. You have to be
48:40
listening and focused. I also because I love
48:42
the answer to both the questions. And, you know,
48:47
you mentioned something that just reminded me
48:49
I had a friend who, you know, you know, you meet
48:51
these people in life that are their souls are
48:54
a little older than than their age. And, you
48:58
know, he always told me you only you can only
49:00
make two mistakes in life. There's a mistake
49:02
by omission. and there's a mistake by commission.
49:05
And he always says like, you know, I rather live
49:09
in a life where I make mistakes by commission
49:12
because at least I did something than by avoiding
49:15
something. And then, you know, there there's
49:18
a mistake. So I thought that was really, really
49:21
insightful. And, you know, and I think that that's
49:24
a good. That's a good kind of north start to
49:27
follow when when people get concerned about getting
49:29
the nose, you know, you you got to revel in the
49:33
process in order to get to the finish line. Yes,
49:36
again, I'm big on opportunity loss. So if I didn't
49:40
make the call or I didn't, you know, reach out,
49:44
it's always a no. But I don't know that it's
49:48
not a yes if I don't call again. Absolutely.
49:52
Like Retske used to say, you're never gonna,
49:54
you know, you make, you don't make a hundred
49:56
percent of the shots you don't take, right? One
49:59
hundred percent. I probably botched that up,
50:01
but it was something along that line. You were
50:02
close enough. You were close enough. So I really
50:05
want to thank you for joining us. I'm so, so
50:08
happy you said yes again. I have to ask. Absolutely.
50:11
Well, thank you for having me. I'm glad you said
50:13
yes. Before we leave, is there anything that
50:16
I didn't... ask or we didn't ask or something
50:18
that you wanted to share or something you wish
50:21
we'd asked for people who are interested in tenant
50:25
rep, doing business in Knoxville, anything. I
50:29
would say that if there's someone that's trying
50:32
to find their niche in real estate, I again,
50:38
I worked for a CNW office, Christian and Wakefield
50:42
office in central Virginia. And I feel like that
50:45
was really beneficial for how I crafted my business
50:50
going forward. Because there were so many brokers
50:54
in the office that when I was starting, I don't
50:57
think that I would have kept the same path if
51:00
I had worked with a boutique office or in a boutique
51:02
office and I was only in contact with one or
51:05
two. other brokers. But because I was at a Cushman
51:08
office and there were initially like 30 brokers
51:12
and then there were 50 brokers, I learned what
51:15
I wanted to take from a bunch of different people.
51:18
I liked, you know, doing business like this person
51:23
for this component of the deal. And I liked the
51:27
way this person cold called and the way this
51:29
person towards base and You know, if you're trying
51:32
to find your niche and what works for you, being
51:35
around as many people as possible that are already
51:38
in the business that are going to pull you into
51:41
deals, learn what side of the business you like.
51:44
I did a couple of office deals and industrial
51:46
deals initially, and I just felt like, OK, this
51:49
really isn't exciting because they all feel the
51:51
same to me. The deal itself might change the
51:54
deal parameters, but I was still touring the
51:57
same kind of space where I felt like And when
52:01
I was doing these retail deals, you know, I was
52:03
working on ground leases and pre -development
52:07
leasing and, you know, looking further out at
52:11
locations five, 10 years down the road instead
52:14
of, you know, a now deal where I feel like the
52:17
office and industrial really hits home. So if
52:21
you can find if I can say, you know, if anyone's
52:24
thinking about tenant rep, I would I would say.
52:26
Find an office that has a bunch of brokers and
52:30
trying to follow them, you know, get on some
52:33
of their deals if you can to walk through the
52:36
deal process or intern with them, be their assistant
52:40
and find out what works for you. Because if you
52:43
don't, you know, build your business and operate
52:45
your business, that's going to be conducive to
52:48
the way that you are personally. It's just not
52:51
going to be as fun. And it's, you want to enjoy
52:54
this career. I mean, I'm in it for 20 years and
52:55
I love what I do. So. Agreed. Fantastic. Lindsay,
53:01
it's been wonderful to have you. Thank you so
53:03
much for joining us. No, thank you. It really
53:06
has been an honor. And on behalf of Jennifer
53:09
and I, thank you everybody for listening to another
53:11
episode, this very special episode of Between
53:14
Two Chairs. And now for Lindsay, for Jennifer
53:17
and myself, we bid you goodbye. Goodbye.