Latest / To All the Men I've Tolerated Before / Flashback: Learning Your Truth and Trusting Yourself

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Flashback: Learning Your Truth and Trusting Yourself · To All the Men I've Tolerated Before

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey everyone, it's Natalie and this is our last episode
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: of the month, which means it is a flashback episode
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: for our new friends who need a little catching up
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: to do with former episodes. This episode is from our
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: second year of the show and it's the learning your
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Truth and Trusting Yourself episode. I chose this episode because,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: I mean, I've been choosing episodes that I thought would
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: bring us the most comfort and the most hope during
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: these times as we keep hurdling into twenty twenty five
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: and things just get more and more wild. I think
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: it's a really great reminder to ground yourself, to listen
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: to yourself, to make sure that you are blocking out
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: nonsense and other influences that do not serve you. And
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: it is a great reminder that your identity is your
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: own identity. You get to define it, you get to
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: reflect on it, you get to change it. And I'll
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: see you next month with all new episodes. They're going
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: to be super exciting and have a great rest of
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: your week.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: Any tolerators, this is to all the men I've tolerated
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: before with Natalie Patona the show where my guests and
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: I chat about how the patriarchy creates an environment where
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: women learn to go against their gut and better interest. Today,
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: my guest is Shorey Davity, who is the host of
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: Conjuring Up Courage and the author of the newsletter The
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: Queer Agenda. Will be chiding about her journey to discovering
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: herself in her sexuality when she found the ability to
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: trust her true Thanks so much for.
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: Me here, Yay, thank you so much for having me.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: No problem. I think you summed it up so great
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: during our kind of like little pre recording chat where
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: it's like, we just live in a society where at
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: no point are you ever affirmed in trusting yourself. If
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: you're a.
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: Woman, Yeah, absolutely not. If you're a woman, if you
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: have any marginalized identity, like basically if you're not a
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: straight cis hut white man, yeah, you aren't affirmed in
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: trusting yourself, and you're very much taught to trust anything
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: but yourself, right.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: I Like, so I was picturing, I was like, what
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: are all of the times that I've been told not
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: to trust myself? And it's frequent. I love the excuse
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: that gets thrown out when you're like, hey, I don't
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: believe that that was a kind way to talk to me,
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: and instead of like your partner, your boss, your parent,
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: or the man that you're talking to, like receiving that,
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: they instead go, I was just joking. You should be laughing.
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, I was just joking. Is the fucking
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: bane of my existence when it comes to interacting with
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: other people, a lot of times men, but not even
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: just men, Like I've had that dynamic in my family
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: so much too, where it's like anytime I've tried to
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: push back against stuff that was clearly not okay, they'd
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: be like, you just can't take a joke. You need
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: to not take it so seriously. I'm like, that is
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: some gas lighting shit.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: Who woke up so sensitive today? Well I guess I did.
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's like those kinds of phrases are so common,
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: but like, truly, what they do is they teach us
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: that our own feelings and experiences can't be trusted. It
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: really is a form of gas lighting where we're just like, wait,
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: my body is telling me one thing that like this
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: is not okay, it doesn't feel good to me, it's
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: not appropriate, but everybody else is saying that I am
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: crazy and that I'm wrong, and so which is it?
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: And when you here that you're wrong over and over
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: and over, and of course you're gonna believe that well.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: And I think a lot of the times besides the
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: like I was being funny and you're being sensitive, I
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: was accused as a child a lot and as a
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: grown woman that I'm just simply too dramatic about how
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: I'm feeling.
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: Oh gosh, yes, the true dramatic, too high maintenance. Like
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: these phrases are uniquely used against like women and friends
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: to put us back into our place. And basically it's
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: like this extension of the idea of like women having
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: hysteria historically. That's all it is. It's just like another
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: way to be like, sweet little child, let me patronize
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: you because you are wrong.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, And the partner of the like too dramatic, I think,
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: is the oh I had it and now I've forgotten it.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: But when it comes to the too dramatic, I just
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: feel like, oh, it's a crying like so I can
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: only have feelings of great amount leave my body through tears.
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  Speaker 2: That is how the adrenaline in my body chooses to cope.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: Some people punch holes in walls and then we just go,
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: oh wow, it's so shocking because they were such a
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: good guy and then they like punched a hole in
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: your door. That's so weird. And it's that whole we've
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: separated anger as like not a feeling. It's just like
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: any bent or a one time occurrence. But whenever I'm
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: sad or I also cry when I'm angry. It's the
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: only way adrenaline will leave my body. Well, then that's
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: hysterical or dramatic, and it becomes a qualifier of my personality, right.
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  Speaker 3: And it's so interesting because crying is literally, like biologically
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: a way that toxins leave our body. And I'm not
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: talking about toxins like in the sense of the fucking
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: slim shakes on Instagram where they're like, drink this and
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: all their toxins will come out. No, Actually, our bodies
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: have natural ways to detoxify, and crying is one of them.
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  Speaker 3: It's a way that we move things through our body.
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  Speaker 3: But so often, especially as women, were told like, you
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: can't cry, you got to keep that in. It's not appropriate.
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: It's weak. That's what I was always told growing up,
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: is that it's really weak to cry, and like you
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: need to be strong. Because I came from a family
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: where it was like, we don't talk about our emotions,
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: we don't even acknowledge that emotions exist, and you have
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: to stuff that down and you can only imagine the
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: effect that's had, like as an adult trying to like
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: have healthy communication and friendships and relationships.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: And I think the in my experience, it wasn't even
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: that like crying was making me weak or making me
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: like something that no one wanted to talk about. It
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: was mainly like, that's inconvenient to whatever the goal of
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: my day needs to be. Like you're having a crying
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: situation suation and now I feel shame, guilt, anger, or
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: literally I'm just inconvenient because we inconvenience because we have
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: something that we need to do today.
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  Speaker 3: Right, it's this idea of like we need to move
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: past whatever that is as quickly as possible because it's
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: taking time out of what we really need to do,
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: and then we can start pulling capitalism into the mix,
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: because that's literally what it is. Right, Crying is taking
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: away from your ability to put out work product into society,
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: and so we should be doing that.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: Did you know that are well? The patriarchy is probably
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: our number one enemy on Team tolerator, but capitalism is
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: like a close second because they're bad partners.
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they are absolutely bed partners. They are so intertwined
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: you can barely tell where one starts and one ends.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: I guess what are some of the instances. So we've
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: kind of talked about our family dynamics and being told
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: like either be quiet or but how did that manifest
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: in your adult life? Like how how do you either
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: witness women or fem presenting humans in your circle presenting
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: this position where they're constantly going against their gut or
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: how have you yourself experienced that?
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so this shows up in a lot of different ways.
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: So I can talk about it generally and then tell
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: you about my personal experiences, but generally in clients and
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: the people I interact with online, Like some of the
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: biggest things that I've seen are like a lack of boundaries,
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: for sure is such a huge one because when you
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: are taught not to trust yourself, then you turn to
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: other people and other systems to get your answers, and
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: so you feel like you can't set boundaries, like it's
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: not okay for you to assert yourself in any way.
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  Speaker 3: So people pleasing tends to be one of the biggest
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  Speaker 3: ways that manifest is it's like, well, what I'm feeling
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  Speaker 3: doesn't matter, and so you're much more easily manipulated by
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  Speaker 3: other people and what they want from you, because it's
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: to their advantage that you're a people pleaser and you
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: don't have boundaries, because then they can walk all over
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  Speaker 3: you and they can get what they want. And sometimes
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: people in your life are doing this like unconsciously too,
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: like they are subconsciously really they don't know that that's
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: what they're doing. But it's so interesting because like I'll
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: have clients or people I talk to who'll be like, yeah,
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: it's so funny. When I started setting boundaries, all of
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: a sudden, like my relationships changed dramatically, and people were
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: accusing me of like, you're this whole different person that
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: I don't know you, and it's like, no, it's the
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: same person. It's just not letting you walk all over
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: them anymore like they did previously.
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: It's so weird because I have this dichotomy that I
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: was supposed to address yesterday in therapy, and then my
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: therapy session got moved to Friday, which is fine, I'll
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: just have time. I got to go to a bookstore.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: It's its own kind of therapy. Oh yes, But I
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: have this dichotomy in my head where now I almost
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: feel like I've over corrected in the people pleasing codependency
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: thing because I'm so scared of falling back into old
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: habits and patterns that it's like I sat around the
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: house wondering if anyone loves and cares about me, and
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: then when someone goes out of their way to show
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: me loving care, I'm like, Ooh, I don't trust that.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: Are you gonna stalk? Me?
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: Like?
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: I think I just continuously make up these scenarios in
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: my head. And I think it's a direct result of
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: you have to learn how to trust your gut, but
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: you've been taught how to not trust your gut, So
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: your gut is bad, but all of a sudden it's good,
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: but your gut is still hanging on to like all
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: of these things that have, like where people have taken
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: your trust or your people pleasing tendencies and misuse it
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: and it creates such a fucked up situation in your head.
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it totally does. I like to think of it
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: a bit like a pendulum, And I've seen this happen
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: with a lot of people where it's like you start
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: all the way on the people pleasing side of things,
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: and then when you finally like do a lot of
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: unlearning and deep programming, like you fly the other direction
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: because you're like, no, fuck that, I am not going
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: to let that happen to me anymore. Which is awesome,
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: but like you said, it tends to be like an
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: over correction at first. We're getting a little too harsh
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: or you get new anxieties about that side of things,
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: and so people often kind of like swing back and forth,
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: back and forth, each time getting a little bit closer
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: to center before they find that balance of what works
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: for them. And that makes sense, right, You've gone your
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: entire life believing and living in one way. It's not
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: going to just be easy to find that balance part
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: in the middle. It takes time.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think we have And again it goes
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: back to capitalism and productivity. We like literally think that like, Okay,
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: I went to two therapy sessions, I should be cured.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: I went to the gym. Once, I'm waking up tomorrow
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: with abs, like and it's just like healing is such
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: a long process and it's also involved, and it also
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: takes twists and turns, and sometimes you do act like
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: you acted when you were fifteen because you happen to
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: be in the bedroom that you lived in when you
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: were fifteen, and it just comes back to you like
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: a ghost.
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: Yes, well, that's funny that you say that, because one
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: of the things that I work on with my clients
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: is figuring out their ghosts of self doubt, which is
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: this term that I've come up with for like all
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: of the voices that you have in your head that
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: don't belong to you. And this is one of the
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: biggest indicators that people are struggling with self trust, is
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: that they're actually not living according to their own internal
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: voice so much because they can't hear it very well. Instead,
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: they have all these ghosts of self doubt in their heads.
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: And this could be anything from like, you know, things
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: your parents said to you when you were growing up,
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: or things that like a teacher said to you. I've
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: had people of like a roommate in college something a
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: magazine article that they read just all these voices that
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: you've internalized so deeply that you're living according to those
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: and you're like, oh, I should do this. I'm supposed
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: to do this without actually stopping to ask, well, what
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: the fuck do I want? Like? Who am I? And
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: what do I want? Like? That's what it does when
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: we systematically break down people's self trust is that people
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: get into adulthood and they're like, actually don't know who
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: I am. I don't know what I like and what
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: I don't like. I feel like shit all the time,
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: but I can't really figure out why my life feels
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: out of alignment.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: A really silly example is when I was in a
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: codea dependent friendship with I mean, if your hate listening
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: to this podcast because you are, you know who you are.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: But I was in this toxic, codependent friendship where everyone
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: had to do everything the same. It was a very
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: high mindset thing, and it made life easier because you
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: always had someone to back you up on something or
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: give you a ride or whatever. But it was also
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: making life extremely harder because if you had to bow
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: out of the hive mind and be like, I'm actually
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: out of town that weekend, or I can't make three
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: things work in my day, then you were like person
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: non grata. But I remember being at a craft store
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: with this guy who was my friend, and they had
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: like calligraphy sets on sale, and he said and quote,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: calligraphy is bullshit. It's way too hard to learn. It
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: is a nonsense art. And I have laughed, but it
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: created this silly like mantra in my head because I
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: have terrible handwriting, so it was easy for me to
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: believe that calligraphy is bullshit. So then when someone was
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: cleaning out their art studio and gifted me, through no
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: ask or anything, just went here, you should have one
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: of these. I have like ten and I'm getting rid
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: of them. A calligraphy set. My mind immediately went, don't
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: even open it. Calligraphy is bullshit, and it's hard like
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: find someone else to pass that on to. You can't
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: do calligraphy.
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: Hmmm. Isn't that so interesting how a single freaking comment
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: can have like permanently change in your mind how you
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: think about something or how you think about a person
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: or an event. Like some of us are so easily
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: swayed again because of just being beaten down over the
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: course of our lives. Anything anybody else tells us, We're like, yeah, yeah,
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: that sounds right. We're gonna go with that.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: I feel like I'm becoming so combative in my conversations now,
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: because if I don't like immediately like stick up for
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: my counterpoint, then it's like, Okay, if I intake this
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: information and I don't immediately come up with what my
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: stance is on it and then communicate that stance, It'll
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: create a rule in my head that will manifest itself
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: three years and now from now when I'm in a
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: job interview.
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, And I think part of that too is
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: like we feel like we have to make up our
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: minds and like have a snap judgment on anything the
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: minute that someone brings it up to us or asks
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: us about it. And I always encourage people like make
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: space where you can, like, if you don't know how
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: you feel about something, you want to take time to
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: think about it or research it. Like there's absolutely nothing
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: wrong with being like, yeah, actually, you know, I haven't
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: thought much about that. Let me like look into that
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: and I'll get back to you. Like that is an
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: okay thing to do, whether it's politics or it's about
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: art form or whatever it is, Like, we do not
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: have to be pushed into just knowing something immediately in
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: the moment.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: And speaking of the ghosts that live inside our head,
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: which is such a cool concept, and I almost want
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: to create a giant art piece around it because it's
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: so in line with the artist way, because she's always
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: talking about like the outside people who influenced your craft
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: or even influenced how you thought about creating your craft.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: I feel like there are several people in several of
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: my friends' lives and my own lives who, because they've
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: known us while we were small or hormonal, or our
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: terrible version of ourselves, we still get convinced by those
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: people that I still get convinced by a lot of
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: people that I am still the selfish fifteen year old
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: who wouldn't wake up from her nap to take up
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: out the garbage, and that I'm combative and argumentative and
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: a sleep all the time and it was probably just depressed, Honestly.
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: It's so frustrating when people who've known us their whole
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: lives refuse to evolve what they think of us alongside
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: of us, because I definitely experienced that with family and
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: other people too. And then there are other people in
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: my life who like totally knew me at like a
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: not a great version of me, not the best version
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: of myself, who I you know, have been along for
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: the ride, seen my evolution and like, are cool with it,
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: are totally understand that, Like, yeah, you are a different
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: person than than you are now, and I really like
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: this version of who you are, and I have so
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: much respect for those people to be like, yeah, I
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: can give you the benefit of a doubt as a
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: human that you're always going to be growing and changing,
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: and it just sucks when people won't give us that
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: benefit of the doubt.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: Well, the human condition isn't very convenient to capitalism because
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: capitalism relies on us being consistently under its thumb and
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: acting in the same way every day because we're all
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: just living on some sort of assembly line. I know,
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: oh not for hours. So you know this wonderful process
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: of taking your clients in and kind of making them
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: see all of the ways that they're not trusting themselves,
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: and then you kind of like walk through how you
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: rebuild that trust with yourself. So how has that looked
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: like in your either with your clients, with yourself, What
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: does it look like when you start like trusting yourself again?
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: Because clearly I'm not there.
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: And that's okay because it takes time. Yeah, so you
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: had asked me to in the previous question. You know
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: what my experience was with the lack of self trust.
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: So I can give a little backstory about what has
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: taken me to the place that I am of trusting myself.
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: And you know, the first thing I'll say is that
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: growing up, I always had a very strong personality. I'm
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: a sagittarius, I'm a fire sign, like I'm extroverted, Like
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: I just have a big personality. My mom always used
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: to joke that, like I could befriend anyone. Apparently I
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: was friends with the elementary school janitor. Don't remember it,
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: but this is what she tells me. So I always
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: had a great sense of myself, and ninety nine percent
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: of children do. Right, Like when a kid is really young,
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: they haven't had time to have these outside influences, like
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: they're showing you who they are. But then the world
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: comes in and is like, hey, here's all these things
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: that you actually need to be. We're gonna put you
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: in these boxes, and if you don't fit in them,
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: we're gonna make you feel really shitty about it. And
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: so I had those experiences with religion. I grew up
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: in a super religious household. You know, I've been queer
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: my whole life, but I didn't realize it until I
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: was in my late twenties because I grew up in
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: a religious householder. It was like, Nope, not okay to
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: be gay. That's a sin. Don't act on that. You know.
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: I grew up in the patriarchy, right. The thing on
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: this podcast that taught me that, like, your most important
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: role as a woman is to like be in support
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: of men, to be attractive to men. Your number one
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: goal should be to like find a partner and get
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: married and have babies and all of that, Like just
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: like every other woman. Growing up, I was fed those
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: messages constantly, and so I fluctuated a lot back and
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: forth between like being like no, I know who I am,
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: but then feeling like, okay, but I have to fit in.
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: Whether it was with my peers like in high school,
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: being like, well I get made fun of when I
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: am the person I am because it's not what people
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: want me to be, or if it was with my
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: parents being like we're disappointed in you, Like these are expectations,
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: you need to meet them. We're gonna punish you if
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: you don't. So I always was doing this back and
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: forth thing, and this ultimately culminated in I only dated
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: men my entire life. I literally had no idea that
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: I was interested in women. I married a man and
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: I was with him for ten years total, and towards
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: the end of that marriage, I had the revelation that
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: I was by. Because I was with I finally had
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: bisexual friends who I could like talk to about this
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: and ask questions and be like, oh, some of my
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: stereotype ideas of what it means to be by are
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: wrong and I had allowed myself. I was like, oh, like,
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: I actually think I've attracted to women. And I was like,
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: if I wasn't with my husband, like I think that
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: I would date women. And I was like, ah, this
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: won't change anything about my life. This was the line
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: at the time. I was like, it's fine, Like came
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: out to my husband, came out to my friends, came
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: out to the world. But I was like, this won't change.
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: But what actually happened is that it was like this
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: Pandora's box in my brain where it was like I
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: flipped the switch of like, you are allowed to be
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: attracted to women, It's okay, you can be queer. Suddenly
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: I realized that, oh shit, I've never actually been attracted
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: to men in the way that other people heterosexual people
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: are actually bisexual people are attracted to men. I've actually
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: never experienced sex the same way. I haven't experienced like
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: romance the same way. But I didn't know because I
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: had this idea in my head of like what my
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: life was supposed to look like and who I was
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: supposed to end up with, and I just didn't deviate
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: from that. And what's interesting is my body knew long
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: before my brain did, so I was absolutely getting messages
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: throughout that relationship in my marriage that like something was wrong,
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: but I didn't have the tools to interpret what the
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: fuck was actually wrong. And at the time, I was like, well,
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: I'm not gonna leave what is like an objectively good
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: marriage with like a wonderful, nice partner in person who's
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: my friend without a good reason, and like my body
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: being like something is wrong didn't feel like a good reason.
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: So I, you know, tried to blame myself, tried to
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: blame other things, logic my way out of it, until
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: I finally reached a port where my body was like,
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: you are gay, bitch, You're fucking gay, and you cannot
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: be married to a man because you're gay, and if
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: you stay in this relationship, you will always be lacking
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: of something in your life and you'll never get to
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: be your true self. And that was a fucking rough
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: and painful experience and process, and like I've explained this
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: in like two minutes, but really this is over the
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: course of years of like work and unpacking and therapy
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: to get to that point. But that for me was
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: like the biggest moment of self trust was to be
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: able to take the leap and leave my marriage, blow
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: up my entire life. Yeah, like you know, financially and
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: logistically and all these things that had to happen in
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: order for me to get divorced, like give up the
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: future that I had always thought I wanted with the
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: hope that I was right, because I didn't know for sure.
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: I'd never been with a woman. I was like, I
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: could be fucking wrong about this, but I was just like,
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna make this leap. I'm gonna trust myself even
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: though like it hurts like fucking hell to do this
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: and I'm grieving for everything and hope that I'm right.
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: Lo and behold, I was right. But it was rough.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: I love the image of Pandora's box because I mean
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: huge mythology nerve to begin with. But how many Pandora
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: boxes got opened up during the pandemic, Like literally I
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: can think of six in my own brain. Like I
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: lost my faith in capitalism and the way that we
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: do the workforce here with the sexuality thing, what I've
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: been coming to terms with is it's not normal to
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: be in relationship after relationship with people and then when
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: those relationships end, you don't you sit there and go,
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: I don't even think I actually liked you. I can
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: think of one male partner that I think, maybe two,
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: but I think it's just one one from when I
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: was really young and he was really important to me
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: before we started dating, and then we became almost more
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: important but kind of less important to one another while
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: we were dating, and then it was over and I
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: could just like pick up and move on and just
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: kind of be in these relationships where it's like, I
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: don't really like you, I don't really like myself when
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: I'm with you, but I think I'm just like playing
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: the role that this is what everyone around me is doing,
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: and I'm like, So today I was watching The Time
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: Traveler's Wife because a friend and I are going live
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: on Instagram every Tuesday to talk about it. And in
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: pure television, Steven Moffatt fashion her big date to like,
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: really impress this dude is making him dinner even though
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: she doesn't enjoy cooking. She doesn't actually feel confident that
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: she can do it. But what do women serve to
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: men if not sustenance to lift bell boo? And I'm like,
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: I don't even I just don't like this narrative that
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: we've all been asked to play too. And at the
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: end of the day, I don't actually know if I
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: believe in it. But like you when you were starting out,
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: it's like it's that fear of so what if I
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: tell all of these people this thing, like I don't
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: want to date a man anymore. It hasn't worked out before.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: I don't even like Like as I think about my
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: partners of the past, I didn't even like them. So
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: I'm going to try something new. And we have such
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: a fear of trying new things in this country, like
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: we do not do it. We don't explore. We're supposed
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: to immediately know who we are through like no sense
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: of play. We took play out of kindergarten because it
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: didn't serve any purpose.
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: Oh god, why is that so true?
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: Though?
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think yeah, especially in adulthood, we totally lose
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: our sense of like wonder and curiosity and exploration and
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: when it comes to being a beginner at things, because
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: the older we get, the more used to being competent
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: we are, right, like some of us have like careers
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: or like things that we've just been doing for a
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: really long time. There's less like new stuff overall, and
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: so we hate feeling incompetent, and I think we also
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: hate feeling like what are other people going to think
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: about us or say about us? And so all of
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: that combines together for us to not want to try
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: new things unless we're instantly good at it, and y'all, like,
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: that's not the way that things work. It is so
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: rare to try a new thing and be instantly good
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: at it like that if you are a prodigy, maybe,
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: but for the rest of us, it's like you're going
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: to try something new and you're probably gonna suck at
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: it for a while. And also that is the best part,
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: you know, how fun it is to suck at stuff.
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: It's great because like there's the only expectations are the
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: ones you're putting on yourself, because my expectation for any
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: beginner of anything is like, of course, you're not going
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: to be at this. It takes time and practice and
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: patience to get good at these things. Like I'll give
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: you an example, which is that I've been doing aerials
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: for the past five years now, so I do trapez
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: I have an area working in my backyard. I fucking
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: love it. And when I started, you know, I was
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: awkward as hell and a mess, like I am not
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: a dancer. Speaking of things that people tell you and
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: you convince yourself of. My mom told me that I
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: was not graceful growing up, and so like I always
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: have this idea in my head, like you're not a
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: graceful person. I am not a graceful dancer, but I
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: am graceful on the trapeze through practice and through working
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: on it. But the other day, my girlfriend I brought
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: her out to the rig and like she was practicing,
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: I let her go on my trapeze for the first time,
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: and she went on my friend silts for the first time,
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: and it transported me back to like my first time
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: going upside down getting on an apparatus and like just
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: how hard it is, how much it hurts your body,
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: like how disorienting it is. And I'm like, damn, like
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: five years ago, that's where I was, and like I'm
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: in such a different place now. But if I had
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: it fought through that initial like awkwardness period and the
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: like I am just you're bad at this period, I
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: wouldn't be here. And I'm so sad for all the
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: people who just give things up so quickly because they
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: have too high expectations of like what they're supposed to
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: be at for that, and because we care so much
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: about what other people think about us, Like fuck what
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: other people think?
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: Well, And usually it's people when you're younger, it's like
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: with your mom. It's people who are in some sort
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: of imbalanced power structure with you because they're a person
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: who again is quote unquote in charge of you. When
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: I was in school, and school is another Pandora's box
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: that I'm over is the way that we do the
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: American education system. And I'm a former teacher. So when
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: I was in school, I was a really great reader.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: It's how I disassociated and probably coped with my undiagnosed ADHD.
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: Hey me too.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: Hey, So I did really great in English classes, I
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: did okay in math based classes, but I didn't do
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: what you would say excel in the American education system.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: So I was constantly told I was bad at math.
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: So wow.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: So when I would say things like I want to
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: be a vet marian or I want to be a
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: marine biologist, marine biology was probably going to be real
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: tricky because I do get seasick just by like kind
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: of being in the water, Like we touched the water
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: and my body goes, no, we're nauseous. Why would you
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: do it?
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: But go to all the nineties kids who wanted to
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: be marine biologists, because I swear to god, that was
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: like one of three careers we all thought we were
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: gonna be.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: I'm sure it was like misfrizzle or something. I'm sure
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: they had like some show on the Magic School Bus
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: with whales and we were like that one. I want
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: to be where the whales are, but I wanted to
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: be like a vet, a marine biologist and all of it.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: And all I kept hearing from people was you're not
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: going to be that great at sigecience because science takes
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: the building blocks of math, and you're not good at math?
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: And do you know how many jobs in this damn
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: society rely on math and you just immediately think that
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: you're not good at a huge chunk of the socioeconomics structure.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: And so so I became a teacher, and what was
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: my favorite fucking subject to teach? Math? Because I could
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: teach it like a language, which I think is important.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: With the Core curriculum, they teach math in eighteen different ways.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: No one can understand it, And I go, if you
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: teach math like a second language, you can kind of
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: break it down into why it fits all of these
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: eighteen different niches. And biology science. I loved coming up
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: with science experiments for my kids. I was devastated when
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: I didn't get to teach science anymore.
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: That is fascinating. Yeah, I think all these things that
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: we were like told we're bad at when we're right.
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: It's a lot of times it's just like we weren't
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: being taught in the way that we needed to be
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: taught it. Especially you and I have this. You know,
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: we had undiagnosed ADHD. We're neurodivergin English spoke to us more.
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: And if someone had taken the time to shift the
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: way that it was taught to make sense to our brain,
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: since like all of a sudden, we probably wouldn't have
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: been quote unquote bad at math. But that's just as
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: you said, that's not the way the American education system works.
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: It's like unless a teacher goes out of their way
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: to create their own stuff. And there's wonderful, incredible teachers
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: out there. I absolutely had teachers who did this for me.
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: But when people teach according to like what they're expected,
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: and they're told that they have to do it, there's
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: not a lot of room for creativity, and kids get
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: left behind who are like, well, I just can't understand this.
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: And again, if we teach kids you are inherently good
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: or bad at certain subjects, instead of this subject's going
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: to just take a little bit more work and thought
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: from you. Like of course kids give up on that stuff,
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: like why try if you were just told, well, you're
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: always going to be bad at it.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: We talk a lot about the back of the good
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: and the bad person onto all the men I've tolerated before,
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: because you get to be both, like you get to
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: be good at reading, but also I hate reading Stephen King,
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: even though he's spooky. I think he's really drawn out.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: Neil Gamon too. I love Neil Diamond's stories when I
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: watched them, but reading them is the biggest chore of
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: my life because I'm like, why do we have fifteen
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: pages about this one plot of land? Was it green?
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: Was it hot out? Was it?
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: Like?
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: This could have been three sentences like so, I'm a
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: great reader, but there are authors I don't click with.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: I was really great at algebra because algebra is kind
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: of like I like variables, they're like puzzles. It was
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: clean cut. I sucked at trig because my brain doesn't
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: like to try and imagine shapes. I've always had terrible
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: spatial awareness. Yeah, and I think when and it's the
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: same with the way that religion plays into our ideas
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: about sexuality, or society plays into our ideas about sexuality.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: It's either you're in group A or you're in group B.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: And we know that group B has prejudice attached to it,
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: so you probably want to be in group A.
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, I mean we do not. This is changing,
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: I should say. I think our generation that's raising kids
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: is doing this very differently overall, but with our parents'
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: generation and raising kids, and like the generation above that
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: raising kids. It's like you didn't talk about anything related
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: to sexuality, Like I didn't even need to hear the
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: word heterosexual or straight because the concepts were just normalized.
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: This is what compulsory heterosexuality is. It's that we all
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: grow up in the CIS heteronormative society where we're old
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: like you fit into this box. We're mostly going to
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: ignore people in the other box. We're not going to
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: tell you, hey, did you know that, like there's more
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: than just boys and girls, and that like boys can
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: love boys and girls can love the girls, and you
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: could be not binary. Like none of that shit was
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: ever given to me as a possibility or as an option,
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: because that's just not how we do things as a society.
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: Like we expect that people are going to do this thing.
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: And it's interesting for me too. I've talked about this
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: with my girlfriend. So my girlfriend knew that she was gay,
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: like at four years old, Like she knew that she
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: was attracted to other girls. And she also grew up
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: in a really religious household where she was told that
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: was bad. But interestingly, she uh is a soft butch
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: and so she leans more towards the masculine side, and
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: she always has. And I think folks who are butchier
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: tend to have an easier time like knowing like I
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: am different, I don't fit in because they also don't
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: show up with the gender expression that people expect them
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: to have in society, right like I don't want to
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: wear dresses, I want to play with the boys, I
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: want to do these things. And so they're told, no,
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: you got to course correct on that. Those of us
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: who are more fem who are naturally more feminine, more
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: fem like, we are more likely to go under the
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: radar of not realizing our sexuality until later, which it
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: can go both ways. Of course, I'm not saying that
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: only this happens to only feen people, but like in
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: my experience as a fem person, because I fit into
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: that part of the box, like I was a feminine person, Like,
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: there was no indication to anybody that I might be gay,
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: like to try and correct that. So it was just like,
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: of course you like boys, and of course you're going
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: to date boys, and like, this is your future because
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: this is who you are. So I think that's one
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: of the many things that obscured my sexuality to me,
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: is that like I fit into enough of the box
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: that I didn't think and nobody else in my life
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: thought that, Okay, well maybe you're not all way there.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it's like when I when the algorithm on TikTok,
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: the the opener, the box cutter of every Pandora's box
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: that I had during the pandemic. When you know I
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: would get by or lesbian tiktoks around, I'd be like,
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: all right, all right. When I get adhd tiktoks, I'd
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: be like m And then everything becomes a checklist in
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: your head and at some point you like way out.
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: And I think this is a direct correlation to the
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: way that we're treated in our society. It's almost like
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: every time I do the checklist, I'm like, do I
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: have enough checks to actually justify dating women or people
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: who aren't men? Because I didn't at four years old
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: have a crush on one of my girlfriends from the
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: neighborhoo or anything like that. There's so much like internalized misogyny,
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: internalized heteronormative rhetoric or whatever that even when you're trying
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: to deprogram from it, you stop and you go, do
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: I have a right to deprogram from this, like, do
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: I have access and even the ability to take part
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: in this community that at thirty three, I'm thinking maybe
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: I'll try it.
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: Oh, one hundred percent. I am so glad that you
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: mentioned this, because, especially working with queer clients, I see
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: this all the time. It is that like imposter syndrome. Again,
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: you have been taught that you can't trust your body,
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: so of course you're not going to trust that maybe
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: this thing about you could be true because it doesn't
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: fit into the very specific narrative that we've been given
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: for these different things. So for queerness, for example, there
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: is a very specific like born this way narrative that
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: the queer community has kind of bolstered and put to
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: the forefront. And it's a very helpful marketing narrative because
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: if we are born this way right, then it is
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: much easier to convince people like, of course we can't
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: change like we were born this way. This is who
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: we are, so that's why we deserve rights, and we
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: deserve the laws in our favor and be able to
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: get married in all this stuff, And a lot of
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: people resonate with that narrative. But born this way narrative
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: and It's not that I don't resonate with it, because
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: I do believe that I have always been queer. It's
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: just that I didn't realize it very early because of
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: all of this other stuff, and that piece doesn't fit
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: into the narrative. I have had people in my own
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: community argue with me and be like, you can't not
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: know that you're gay. You always knew you were, just
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: like refusing to acknowledge it, and like, that is not
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: something that I resonate with. That's not true for me.
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: And for a lot of people, they experience their sexuality
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: as flu where, you know, they think that they're one
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: thing and then it kind of shifts over time. And
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: so there's a lot of different possible narratives and experiences
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: that a person can have, and it's not just this one.
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: And also, let me just throw this out there, there
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: is nothing wrong with exploring and getting curious and trying
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: to figure it out. Right, You're not a bad person
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: for being like, I think that I might be queer.
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: I'm not one hundred percent sure. I'm still exploring this
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: and being like I think I want to, you know,
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: try dating women and see how that is for me,
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: or I want to try dating on binary people and
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: see how that is for me. Or I think I
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: might be neurodivergent. Let me see if I shift some
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: things in my life that might work better with my
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: what I think is a neurodivergent brain, and see how
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: that feels for me. There's nothing wrong with trying stuff
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: out like and you can declare that you're doing that, right,
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: that's totally fine to be like I think I'm this,
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: and I'm going to come out as this. And you
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: can also do this under the radar without talking to
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: people about it if you prefer, and you can change.
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: I came out as bisexual first, and then two years
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: later came out as a lesbian, Like, it is okay
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: for our labels to change, for our identities to change,
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: because as humans, we are always growing and evolving over time,
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: as we've already said. So sometimes we get new language
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: that we didn't have before that all of a sudden
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: it makes sense, or we have a new experience that
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: all of a sudden it makes sense. Like right now
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: I identify as a cis lesbian woman. I can't tell
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: you what that's going to be ten years from now,
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: because the world's going to keep changing. Language is going
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: to keep changing, maybe other things will make sense. Then
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: maybe by then, like we'll just have gotten rid of
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: labels all together and people won't be using it.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: That's so back to your pendulum metaphor. That's where I
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: think we're on the pendulum, Like we had like all
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: the way over to the side, we had like straight
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: people are the best, just be straight, and then there
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: are like two other options for you to not be straight,
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: but you really want to be straight, And then we
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: swan and we're like everything has a label now, so
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: everything can be labeled and called something, and you fit
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: into a couple of different boxes or miniboxes or this
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: one box. And I think eventually the middle is just
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: interacting with people the way that you want to, in
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: a loving way and not calling it anything.
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: Right, And a lot of gen Zers are already going
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: in that direction where they're just like, yeah, I'm queer,
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: like I love who I love, I am who I am,
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: and I don't want to put a label on it.
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: I don't feel like there's a need for it. And
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: you know, then there's like the millennial generation, which I'm in,
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: where for me because I had to fight so hard
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: to figure out who I was. I actually really like
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: having a label. I like having the label of lesbian.
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: I like having the label of queer because it also
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: helps me find my community and find people who have
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: had similar experiences to me. So I think there's like
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: some four labels, theres some against labels, and we just
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: need to let people do what feels best for them.
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: But I think you're totally right, Like, obviously, the long
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: term goal is that, like queerness is so normalized in
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: society that one we don't just assume that everybody is straight.
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: We just assume that we actually can't know a person
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: sexuality or gender unless they tell us, and we assume
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: that hey, it could be anything, you know, until I
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: know it could be anything, And like all people should
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: be treated the same and respected the same regardless.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because you always have the right to not be
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: attracted to someone in your dating pool, even when you
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: are a queer person. If another queer person approaches you,
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: it's not like it's an automatic Yes, we both synced
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: up and been in our circle. So if a queer
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: person approaches another person who they assume is queer, you're
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: always allowed to hear rejection and experience it.
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: It's hilarious to me though, that like the Straits don't
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: seem to get this, you know. It's like the argument
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: they always make about like, oh well, if someone comes out, like,
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: we don't want them in the locker room with the
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: girls anymore. And it's like, you are fucking flattering yourself
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: if you think that, like all lesbians are attracted to
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: all other women, I have taste. Okay, like I'm I'm
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: still only attracted to the people I'm attracted to. It's
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: not like all of a sudden, I'm attracted to everybody.
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: Are you, as a straight person, a straight woman attracted
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: to every single man you're around? Of course you're fucking not.
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: So why would you try to put that on queer people.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: It's like when the Straits try to set up their
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: one queer friend with their other queer friends and they're
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: like easy.
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: Like you'll get along great. It's like, do we have
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: anything in common other than the fact that we're both gay? No, okay,
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: all right, mayby then.
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: And I think one of the things that I'm also
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: so And then you have to navigate these very tough
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: situations with people that you love, and one of the
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: things that we triggers my imposter syndrome because I asked
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: a member of my like a person that I love
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: and the person that I trust the most in the
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: queer community. I asked, can I be traumatized into being bisexual?
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: And is that still valid? And he goes, well, are
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: you attracted to women? And I go, I'm letting you
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: know that I'm trying to figure this out, and I'm
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: trying to figure out is this a response because I'm
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: exploring all of my relationships with men and that means
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: that it's invalid or is it something that's always been
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: going on in the back of my mind and it's
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: now just coming to the surface as I reflect And
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: then for it is valid? And he goes, I don't
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: know how to answer this question. I was like, cool.
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: But my friends when I say, like when I'm like,
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm just going to change up the way
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: that I date and I'm going to be open to
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: more gender expressions, They're like, well, is this just a
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: respect and you just not liking the men that you've dated?
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, well, maybe I don't know, but at
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: the end of the day, I always go doesn't matter.
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, like that it's it's a tricky thing
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: I think when you're trying to figure out like which
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: which is it? In terms of does it matter? I mean,
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: I think the only place where that could be an
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: issue is obviously you're going to run into people in
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: the dating pool who are going to be only interested
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: in dating people who are sure one way or the other,
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: because of course it's not an uncommon phenomenon for straight
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: or straight ish people to be like I want to
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: experiment with queer people and just see what happens. And
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: there are plenty of queer people who are like I
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: am down for that. I'm happy to sleep and date
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: with anyone who's trying this, Like I don't have a
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: problem with that. And then there are other queer people who,
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: like I, have been burned by this in the past,
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: and so this doesn't feel like a comfortable space for me.
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: So that's like the piece where I'd say where it
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: matters is just like in your communications with people that
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: you're interested in dating. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: you going and trying this out and figuring it out,
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: because I think that like, yes, like I, the reality
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: is like if it were just like a traumatization, right
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: and you aren't actually attracted and interested in people of
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: other genders. You're gonna figure that out really quick, right,
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: Like you're gonna try it and be like, Nope, this
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: actually isn't for me. I am not feeling like the
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: attraction sexually, romantically whatever that I thought that I might,
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: And I clearly have some other issue that I need
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: to deal with with men or I'm on the ACE
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: spectrum or like whatever other possibilities you know that you
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: could discover from that. But maybe what's gonna happen is
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: you're gonna try it and be like, oh, I fucking
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: love not dating men. It is so fun to date
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: women in non binary and trans people like this is
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: a much better fit for me, but you can't know
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: until you try it. So it's just like you have
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: you have to go out and try it and just
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: be honest with people that like, this is new for
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: you and you you know you don't know yet, and
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: that's okay.
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: And I think our third enemy on two all the
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: men I've tolerated before, the media, the media only likes
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: to write stories about one piece of that pie where
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: it's someone's experimenting, and then neither community community wants them
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: because it creates drama for the person who's trying to experiment,
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: and then that's great television. So I think we're also
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: in doctrine with this narrative where it's like, if you
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: experiment and then you get it wrong, then no one
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: actually wants you around because you've offended both parties.
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: Which is bullshit, right, absolutely bullshit. You know, like we
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: all have a right to explore and figure things out
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: for ourselves as long as we do it in a
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: way that is respectful of the other people that are
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: a part of it. And I think that's just like
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: the number one thing, like just be respectful, be honest,
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: don't lie about like your intentions or what's going on
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: with you, and it'll be fine. You'll be cause you'll
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: find the right people, because, like I said, some people
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: are going to be like, oh, that's not for me,
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: and that's their right, and other people are going to
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: be like, I'm fine with this. I think you're hot.
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: Let's go for it.
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: And what I'm hoping like back to the when I
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: was a kid, I wasn't presented a whole lot of
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: different scenarios that I could be living my life under
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: a lot of the pushback to all of this awareness
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: that's going on in our country is the why is
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: it such a big deal? Now? Why does it matter?
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: Who cares if I have books in my classroom with
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: two moms or two dads, and it's like, well, it
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: does matter because some child is sitting there blocking themselves
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: off to a lot of possibilities that they don't think
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: are possible because they can't conceptualize it unless they're seeing
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: and living it.
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: I absolutely think that lack of representation was a huge
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: part of my own inability to you know, discover my
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: queerness because to the extent that we even got queer
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: representation when I was growing up, it was almost exclusively
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: white gay. You know, when we think about like show
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: like Queer Eye, the Original, when we think about you know,
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: Will and Grace, like the representations of like lesbians or
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: women who are interested in each other like they bisexual
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: people didn't even exist, Like those representations were not really around,
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: and not only just like in fictional media, but then
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: also in the stories that we were getting right, Like,
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: I didn't have much queerness in any of the books
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: that I was reading when I was growing up, And
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: like I said, I was a boracious reader. Right. I
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: read literally thousands of books as a kid, and I
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: can think of like two that had any queer rep
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: in them. And that is bananas because I was reading
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: like adult books too from a very young age. So like,
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: now this is changing so much. And then yeah, there's
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: this pushback right in the country being like we can't
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: talk about this, don't stay gay in the classroom. We
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: take these books out of here, like this is we
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: don't want to be woke, blah blah blah, And it's
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: bullshit because like so many kids will grow up being
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: able to be themselves if they can see that. And
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: it's the little stuff too, Like I think about how
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: every you were a teacher, like every example on a
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: test or in a workbook, if it involved like a
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: couple or a family, was like a heterosexual family structure,
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: heterosexual couple. It wasn't like ever a queer representation of
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: those families.
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: Well, and then as an adult teacher in a room
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: full of children, you are expected to be like a
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: sexless barbie, like you're not allowed to have parts. So
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: if a child comes up to you and is experiencing
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: anything on the sexuality gender spectrum, you've been taught as
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: a teacher to not bridge those consequences because what if
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: the school gets sued. So it's also one of those
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: things where children are in a lot of environments where
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: they have no one to talk to about this because
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: someone feels some sort of shame down the line. Right.
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: And the thing that's so ridiculous about this is that, right,
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: you're like, you know teachers were sex to be sexless, Barbie. Sure,
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: but also I knew which of my teachers were married.
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: They had pictures of their spouses in their straight relationships
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: and other things of that nature that indicated to me
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: that they were like heterosexual. And so we only apply
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: the stigma to like queer teachers and to children who
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: want to talk about queerness when it comes to like
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: straight relationships. Well, that's what we learned about in sex,
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: said Right, I certainly didn't learn about any queer possibilities
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: in sex, said I mean, I grew up in Texas,
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: so I also only had abstinence only education. But everything
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: I learned about was in reference to assuming that you
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: were straight and just completely ignored other possibilities. So it's
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: like the standard is different, and that's what's fucked up.
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: Yes, and so and now there's pushback against sensitivity training,
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: and it's like, well, I've always been a kind person,
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: why do I have to go through sensitivity training. Well,
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: because at some point someone has been unkind or they're
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: just trying to give you tools where you can communicate
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: what's necessary. And I'm getting so much pushback from people
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: in my lives where it's like, why would I be
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: discussing this with the child at all? I go because
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: kids will just walk up to you and say shit
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: to you. Like, I'm not saying that you plan to
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: have your morning lesson be about this, but a kid
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: will just like raise their hand and then say shit
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: to you, And then you have to be an adult
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: who knows how to navigate that.
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: And being kind doesn't mean that you don't have unconscious bias,
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: because we all do because we all grew up with
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: these systems of oppression being normalized. So you may think
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: that like you are being kind and nice and like
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: you're always gonna do the right thing, but the reality
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: is that you grew up with those same messages that
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: we all did, and subconsciously, like this has been infiltrated
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: in your brain and you don't know what you might say,
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: unless someone tells you, hey, like this is actually not
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: how we would respond in this situation. This is going
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: to bolster white supremacy, This is going to bolster homophobia,
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: Like you don't You think you know that, but you
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: don't because having privilege means you've never actually had to
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: see it, right.
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: And a lot of us who are now adults holding
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: down jobs or teaching jobs or any job where you're
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: interacting with people, we grew up in the era where
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: gay was a real fun joke to call people. Like
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: the Hilary Duff commercial is going around again where Hillary
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: Duf's like, it's not cool to use gay as an
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: insult feminist icon Hillary Duff. There was not one clear
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: character on Lizzie Maguire but feminist icon.
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: Oh god, I love that commercial. And I remember when
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: gay was like the cool negative term, Like I remember
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: my brothers just running around the house yelling it. Also,
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: obviously when I was growing up, the f slur was
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: like regularly used to belittle boys and men and like
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: that was just normal. I think Kate McKinnon like referenced
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: it in the like skit on SNL that about that
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: don't say gay thing where she was just like, oh yeah,
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: like we all we all say Gate's whatever. They're like, no, no, no,
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: you can't say Kate.
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: I love Kate McKinnon. We have two traditions ontil all
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: the men I've tolerated before, where we kind of take
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: our biggest takeaway of having to live through this slice
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: of the misogyny and the patriarchy that we lived through
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: every day, and we say this was my greatest growth moment,
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: or this was the biggest thing that I learned about myself,
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: or this is the biggest thing that I learned and
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: about what I can carry into the universe, and then
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: we manifest some positivity into the communities that are also
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: grappling with this. So what would you say is your
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: biggest takeaway through your journey of trusting yourself.
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: I would say that my biggest takeaway is that my
• 56:23
  Speaker 3: body is my teammates and my friend, and that my
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: body can be trusted and it is my job to
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: keep open the lines of communication, to interpret what my
• 56:36
  Speaker 3: body is saying and to really put her first and
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: listen to what she has to say to me, and
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: that she's like my number one. If it's okay for
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: me to like go to outside sources and research and
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: get help from other people. But at the end of
• 56:51
  Speaker 3: the day, like the answers that I need are inside
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: of me, and if I am willing to turn inward
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: to get quiet and to actually listen to her, she
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: will give me what I need. And that has been
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: just a huge turning point for me to realize that, like,
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: I don't have to live according to shuds, according to
• 57:12
  Speaker 3: what other people tell me, I'm supposed to show up
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: and that actually I am my most joyful and I
• 57:17
  Speaker 3: am my most balanced and centered if I am doing
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: what I want. Fuck what everybody else says, And there
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: is some privilege in that. I want to say, there
• 57:26
  Speaker 3: is safety for many people that has to be considered,
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: whether it's with family or employment or their environment. Like
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: the world does not make it easy to say fuck
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: everybody else, right, And so if you're like, well, I
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: definitely can't do that, or there are spaces where I
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: can't do that, I think the most important thing is
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: to find places and community where you can have that
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: full expression of you, because you need to have it somewhere.
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: You have to have that outlet, and it sucks that
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: you can't have it one hundred percent of the time
• 57:54
  Speaker 3: in all spaces. I can't even have it one hundred
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: percent of the time in all spaces, and I have
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: a lot of privilege, and so finding those areas where
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: we can be our fullest self and we can trust
• 58:03
  Speaker 3: ourselves is really the key.
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I love that because it gives a whole new
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: definition to body positivity because it's rebuilding that so often
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: we just have to rebuild the way that we feel
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: about our body and the way that it physically looks
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: to the outside world, but also rebuilding that relationship with
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: how your body is feeling is also body positivity in practice.
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: It is absolutely Yeah.
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: I think my biggest takeaway as I approach and continue
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: to walk through trusting myself is it's okay to flop,
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: And the biggest thing that I need to do is
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: trust myself when I experiment or try something new, or
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: have a moment where I didn't do like my therapist
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: justice or something, and know that the biggest trust that
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: I can have with myself is I'm going to trust
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: myself to get myself through the flop.
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: And the flops usually teach us more than the like
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: getting it right in my life. Every time that I
• 59:11
  Speaker 3: have flopped in some way, failed in some way. I
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: have learned the most from that, and so we we're
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: too mean to the flop.
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: The flop is valuable, The flop is valuable. That's a
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: stick here. The flop is but valuable, and it's just
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: like a belly flop image. Yes, what would be your
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: hope in the manifestation for the collective community as we
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: move forward?
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: My hope and manifestation for the collective is that we
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: get to live in a world where we all are
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: given the space to figure out who we are in
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: each moment, because it's constantly changing. To be able to
• 59:56
  Speaker 3: explore that, embrace that, and be that, and still be
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: respected and loved and cared for for who we are
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: in all of our changing versions.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: That's beautiful. It's like the world peace answer of like sexuality.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: It's like, I just want to live where everyone's okay,
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: to be okay and to not be okay, and to
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: not be okay. I think my greatest manifestation is if
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: the pendulum is going to keep swinging, and that's fine.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: We've gone through a lot of pendulum swings in our day.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: Eventually I get to live in that middle center where
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: instead of everyone feeling the need to be in a box.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: We just have enough representation out there of all of
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: the different pathts that life sexuality careers can take, so
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: everyone gets this landscape of oh, we're kind of chill
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: with everything, so I actually do get to be the
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: captain of my life ship.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's like it's not a stagnant center. It's
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 3: like the living breathing center, where it's like there's lots
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 3: of space to move around and like there's lots of possibilities.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: I think, especially when it comes to healing work or
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 3: things like body positivity or sexuality, there's this narrative of
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: like we're working our way up the mountain, we're gonna
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 3: reach the top and we're gonna be like hooray, we're here,
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 3: and we're just gonna stay there forever. And that's like
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 3: not reality, right, It's there's constantly gonna be movement and
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: things and going up and down. So it's more for me,
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 3: it's become about accepting like the process and being excited
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 3: about the changes and the possibilities and knowing that like
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 3: maybe there isn't like some peak of healing or some
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 3: peak of body positivity, and it's actually just like being
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 3: able to take things in stride and being able to
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 3: like feel better in ourselves and know that we can
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 3: navigate the ups and downs and trust that we can
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 3: do that.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: Wouldn't it be great if I could take disappointment or
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: shame and not immediately feel clammy and uncomfortable and like
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: my body is shutting down. Like sometimes shame feels like death,
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: and I feel like that also is a byproduct of
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: misogyny and capitalism.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: Facts Facts, Great.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: This has been a great conversation. It's been such a
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: healing hour for me. Thank you so much for joining
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: us on Team Tolerator, and please know that you get
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: to come back and every time you're pissed at misogyny.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: There are a million topics that we could be covering,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: and we just covered a couple of them today. So
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: it's an open door policy here onto all the men.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: I'm tolerated before. Let everyone know where they can find
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: you and all of the great messages that you have
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: for everyone.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: Of course, Well, thank you so much for having me.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 3: This was super fun. I'm glad we got to do this.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: I am pretty easy to find if you spell my
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: name correctly, because I am Shore davity everywhere. So my
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 3: two biggest platforms where I spend the most time are
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 3: Instagram and TikTok. My name is spelled s h o
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 3: h r e h da voo d I. I know
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 3: you'll have it in the show notes and the title
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 3: and everything too if y'all are trying to look it up,
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 3: so find me there. My website is shorreydavity dot com.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: I have a newsletter called the Queer Agenda, as you mentioned,
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 3: where I send out self trust tips and wisdom most weeks.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 3: It's really fun space highly recommend signing up for that
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 3: at shorydovity dot com. Forward slash subscribe, and if you
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: want to work with me, I am a self trust coach.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 3: I work mostly with queer people, but I also work
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 3: with many allies as well, and I do one on
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 3: one coaching. And I also have an awesome year long
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 3: membership program called Follow Your Arrow. If it's not enrolling
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 3: actively at the time when this podcast comes out, there
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 3: is a interest list on my website you can sign
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 3: up for to be one of the first people to
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 3: know when it does drop. And you also mentioned I
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 3: have a podcast Conjuring Up Courage comes out bi weekly.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 3: There are over one hundred and thirty episodes so far,
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 3: so there's plenty of shit for you to scroll through
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: and find what you like and listen to and get
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 3: caught up.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much, and tolerators, you know the deal.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: There's a link tree in the show notes. It'll show
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: you all of the places where you can find us
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: on Instagram, TikTok, Patreon, all of it. It's a fun,
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: little handy little link. And remember, tolerators, you don't have
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: to smile through anything you're tolerating, including walking through life
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: with this really icky feeling inside of yourself because you've
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: never been given the tools to trust yourself. Smiles are
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: for joy.