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Justin Davies: The Fastest Welsh 800m Runner In History · Total Barnage

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Total Barnage.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to another episode.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Today is a very special episode.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Today I'm joined with the Welsh indoor and outdoor 800 meter record holder, Justin Davis.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Justin, welcome to the pod.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much for having me.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's a delight to be here.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I really appreciate you having me on.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: I've taken you away from is it your is it your rest day today?
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's my rest day.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: What how do you figure that one out?
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's the research.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's the well, it's just drama stalking at the end of the day, isn't it oh yeah, that makes more sense.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: What does it look like?
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: What does your training currently look like?
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, off the back of Commonwealth Games in the summer and a season that we'll we'll go into.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: What does September and building into winter look like for you?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: September's looking very cautious at the minute.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: So, like we were saying before, I've um had a stress response this time last year.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um I in the space of three weeks I built up from 20k to 40k to 70k, which is like roughly where I'd sit at the peak of winter, maybe just a little bit below.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: And the load was too much for the body, so I had a stress response this time last year, um, which took me out until December.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then I had after effects, which we can talk about in a bit, um, in March time, which did have effects on the season.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: So this time I'm taking it very sensibly, I'm having a very uh chilled-out start to the season, uh start to the winter build.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we're after getting to about 40k, I'm working on the 10% rule.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm going 10% increase in mileage a week from the previous week, and we'll be at 62k this week.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: So we're getting there.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um I reckon give it a couple more weeks and we'll be at where we want to be.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean, so far, I mean, there have been a few sort of aches, but nothing crazy.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I think we might have actually done it.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: Good, good.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, fingers crossed, touch wood, touch wood, touch wood.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully it'll be yeah, it'll be all good.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, how when you're going through I know that you you know you've had a few setbacks, injuries, as as you mentioned last last winter and um this summer, and we can we can get into it.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you know, you had an amazing breakthrough season um previous season and and on the Olympic, you know, British Olympic Futures program as of about a year now, isn't it, since last October?
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: I've been lucky enough to be on three, yeah, yeah.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: How do you how do you approach the training?
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like you say, is it is it flexible when you're building up mileage?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Who decides?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like you say, you've got the principle of the 10% rule, which is good for building up from scratch.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, is this a conversation you're consistently having with your coach?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: How do you decide when to like how slow to go and when to push?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's an interesting point.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: So at the start, I was actually talking with the physio from Welsh Athletics about sort of from a physiological point of view, how much can the body take and getting a framework in place sort of to figure out what the mileage progression should look like.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: But then I guess I was talking with my coach.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I talk with my coach all the time about this kind of stuff, you know, he messaged me just before this about the session, the message uh sessions for next week and exactly that like how are we going to load in double days?
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a constant conversation, so um it was pretty flexible at the start.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but now we're getting to the point where we will start having to stick in double days, which would be an easy run in the morning or evening, um, on the same day as a session.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: So it's getting less flexible now, but I think that's always the case when you start getting to the higher mileages, you've got less flex in what you can and can't really do.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and are you basing the high mileage?
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: Is this off of what has worked for you in the past?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: Is it based on what you can you currently and like with your physio and your coach can tolerate, or is it based on a natural standard of let's say 800 meter runners across the board?
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: I personally haven't looked at the peak mileages of other 800 metre runners.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I know.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: I I bet if I looked at Jack Higgins's 800-meter training, he would be doing a lot more mileage than I am, and other guys as well, like Henry Jennings.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure he's doing a bunch more than I am.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I just know for me, my body can only take so much.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so if my mileage ceiling per week is 80k absolute maximum, then I've just got to work with that.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I can't really change that.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: I can try and mitigate some of the effects which happen sort of at the upper sort of part of that, maybe with sort of Achilles pain or whatever, but I can't really go beyond that ceiling, it's just a physiological boundary I've got to work with.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: And is that what you've kind of found from I guess it's it's always a tough one with injuries, with you know, they obviously tell you where the boundaries and the limits are.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a way to figure them out without pushing it?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: I guess like or or is it now you just go slower, you build up slower than you think you shouldn't, just even slower than that?
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the only reason I know is because I've broken down so many points around that 80k mark that it's just happened so consistently that I think that is just the ceiling.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think it's just the way to find out through pain, unfortunately.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: And this is it you're saying like before we started, um so you're a tall, you're you're a tall runner, rangy runner.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in terms of like shin shin pain, stress responses around there, is it uh in terms of like a physiological thing, is it more you're more at risk being taller?
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: How how does how can you play to you know obviously the there's the strengths on one side, but then also um lend yourself to to how you are as a build?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's an interesting point.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think I don't want to say something which isn't scientifically backed up, but I bet if I didn't look up a paper right now, caveat, it's alright, it's alright.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I need to caveat this.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I think from my subject experience, all the people I well, most of the people I've dealt with who have received injuries do tend to be taller people, and this could just be completely wrong, and it's just the sample size problem.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: But I think a lot of the people I've seen have been taller, but then on the flip side of that, when you're taller, you've got longer tendons, you can store up more energy in your strides.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: So that there's a performance upside to that, but I think I don't know, this could be entirely wrong, but I think taller runners are more fragile, sort of high risk, high reward type thing.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, you're a high volatility athlete.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, um, and you can see like when you you know when you when you compete, when you race, um it's you're so rangy and so smooth up against.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: Are you sit like six foot three, four?
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: Six three.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: God he's done your research well, yeah.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: Nice.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I know I think I to be fair, that was just that was just a uh an educated guess.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, fine.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um but unless you've got if you've got stats online, could I what's um I don't know.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean maybe somewhere I'd be quite scared if there was, but no good guess.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but yeah, see yeah, six yeah, six six three is it it makes you look comfortable as a style and like really eating up the ground, like especially in the last yeah, last hundred meters of a race.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um I remember a few a few years back when we raced in the Bucks final.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I remember that really well, that race.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Back into well, yeah, because you you stormed through.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like that was talk talk to me.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: We'll you know, we can come back to we can come back to uh going into the injury side of things.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: I want to get a balance of obviously you know talking about talking about running and and and training is I guess some about the training and the running that you do, and then also the training and the running that you don't.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um let's talk about the stuff there's stuff the stuff uh that you have done.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um how was that how was that season for you?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because the way that you moved through that season was just excellent, really, to see you go from strength to strength.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: Was that the 2023 season?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: That was that bucks season.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: 2023, yeah.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: That was I think so that year I think around 147-7.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: So at the time Bucks was the first 800 race I'd done in a few years at that point.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: And no, I remember that was a really sort of special experience for me.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: It was my first outdoor bucks.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: I remember seeing the startless, and obviously you were there and a bunch of other guys, and it was it was a completely surreal experience saying that.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: First time dealing with a proper champs, I'd say.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I know Bucks is you know relatively small compared to other things like British champs, but it's still like in that position, it really meant a lot.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then that season I was just trying to get the 800 down as quickly as possible, really.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think I sort of switched more to the eight than the 15 at that point, um, due to another injury uh before.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, I think at the end of that season I ran a sort of a marginal PB of 147,70.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: And then I think, yeah, the the season after that was 145 season, and then my personal favourite sort of year was 2025, which was the year after that.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: And there's that, yeah.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it is you know, obviously the championships are relative.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and look and looking back on that, you have you have gone to much greater major championships, um, right?
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: But at the at the time you you kind of deal with the the pressures or the expectations that you um that you are at at the moment.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Does does does that ever change as you over the last couple of years going and standing up against people that you recognise either you know from watching their races or knowing how fast they run, does that does that feeling ever change of like the magnitude of the event?
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't change at all.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, when I think about that bucks race, it feels the same as sort of when I remember it, it feels the same as I don't know, lining up on the Commonwealth Game start line.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's all like what is relative to your experience at the time, and that's how I'll always remember that bucks event.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: Not I won't see in retrospect oh it was Bucks, therefore, in retrospect I'll get less I don't know, less sort of stressed about it, or I'll think about it in a different way.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's I yeah, it's relative to I guess what you've experienced at the time.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: At least for me, that's how I've that's how I view it.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: And do you and how do you prepare for those kind of races even you know as they are and an equal you know, equal weight to them?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, how do you prime yourself to be in your best shape possible going into it?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: There are there are some secrets here we can't share that.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's fine, it's just some secrets.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm joking, I'm joking.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I was working with the psychologist um from Welsh Athletics.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um how do I prepare for these races?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: This may need some editing.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: I want to give a good answer, I don't want to just blur something out.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um I know it seems like a really simple question.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: What comes to mind?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm thinking more mental I'm assuming you're talking about more mental preparation than physical.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, taught me taught me through the the couple of days building up to it and then the the few hours building up to a race.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, well I think a couple of days before is a lot sort of easier, I know that and technically it's the same as I guess a couple hours before, but I just try and do everything that I can do to optimise performance in the race, I guess.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know, pack my bag because generally races are abroad, so I've make sure you know bags are packed, um, transport is all set, sort of like I'm spending as much time off feet as possible.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm doing exactly what my coach and I have discussed in the lead up, whether it be strides or easy runs.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: And then I know it's technically the same a few like hours before because you're still doing exactly the things which you should be doing to optimize performance in the race.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: There's definitely a psychological element where you can't easily forget about it.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: You can't say, alright, I'm just doing my easy run, and then okay, I'm I'm racing in two days, so I can just do the right things now, and then I can just hand open my feet up and play Fortnite or whatever.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's not it's not that simple.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um are you talking about is that like being able to switch off?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like being able to do the right the balance of doing the right things and and switching off in in the same way.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: That that's what I try and do before the race because ultimately there's nothing I can do in that moment, it's not like I'm on the start line, so there's no point in stressing about it.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: But then when I am getting ready to go on that start line, then it I think I do find it quite easy to stress about it.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so I sort of have spoken through these processes with uh my psychologist just to get myself in the right headspace, and you know it's not perfect, I'm still working on it, but I think I'm definitely a hell of a lot better than I was, like, especially for that box race.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: I was terrified.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: I remember I didn't actually sleep the night before, like not very well.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: Genuinely.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: To be fair, it's what is it?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: It was uh three round three-round weekend, wasn't it?
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: It was heat heat semis and finals.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, I'm sure, I'm sure you'll have have these at the moment as well, but it's not just you've got more time to think about it, right?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: How are there any tip are there any tips, frameworks that you've worked on with your psychologists that have helped simplify the process going into a race?
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's how to at least for me, what's worked for me, and I can't say it worked for other people, but it's almost challenging, channelling energy.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: So you've got I'm getting she's going to be mad that I've misquoted it.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: You've got three sort of influences on your sort of energy input for a race.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: You've got soothing, uh fight and flight, and you've got and you've got sort of being amped up.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: And those aren't the right words for it, I can't quite think of it right now.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: But what I found is that there was more fight or flight going on at the start, and I was trying to dial that back, essentially, but then what I found is that when I did dial that back, the I don't know the drive didn't take over, and actually what left was the left, and that void was more sort of soothing, which is not good for when you want to like run a good race.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I get this is why I'm saying it's not necessarily perfect for everyone.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: So for me, dialing back that vital flight meant that I then had to dial up the drive, and that was through like motivational words on the start line.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: I remember a race in Norway I did this year, and it I felt really good because I was I like said these words to myself again and again and again, and it didn't matter that the Norwegian was doing some crazy stuff next to me, like I didn't care because I was like think thinking.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: What were you saying to yourself?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: What were the words?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: Oh no, no, no, that's a secret, that's a secret.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I mean almost it doesn't matter because it's going to be personal to whoever's like whoever it is, like it's whatever you need to visualize yourself doing well in that race.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I thought these three words, and it's not necessarily embarrassing, it's just you know, it's a secret, at least for me.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Did you how did you I'm I mean I don't you know I don't need to um I don't want to probe you on is it is it about um how you're is it about the result of the race?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Is it about how you feel when you're running?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: Is it mechanical?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: How do you determine the way to prime yourself for your your optimal race?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think the result ultimately doesn't matter because that's a product of your the process.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm constantly thinking about what can I do in the race, like position-wise and almost subjective effort-wise.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like the 800 is so bloody hard to gauge.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like there, especially this year when I was less fit.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: Bloody hell.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's like especially this year, I was less fit, and so I was going off sort of the same effort gauge as I was last year when I was more fit, and I got to 300, and I was thinking, right, I've got no more gears left, and I was just working on fumes.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: I remember British champs this year, and it was got to about 200 metres to go, and I led it out, and I thought, like, if this was last year, that would have been fine.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: But I had Jake Whiteman, yeah, Jack Higgins on my tail, and I just like I had nothing left, and this time last year I would have had like so much more.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um so no, I think that's quite important.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: The process of it.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: And on that, you know, on that start line, like those three words that you use.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, are you practicing those in training?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: How do you have the association between those three words then realizing itself in the race?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: I don't really do it in training at the minute, especially because the training I'm doing is slower work.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: There's no I find there's a correlation with I don't really get I don't get stressed in training.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, occasionally I get stressed in training.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's for more maybe for we've got a couple classic sessions, which is three sixes or two sixes at 800 meter race pace, and that does give me similar, like I don't know, similar, similar stimulus to if I was actually doing the like competing in a race.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I would do it then for those sessions, but for normal sessions, like I don't know, 10400s, there's no real need for me to do that because I'm not I don't I'm not feeling like I'm nervous in any way.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: Does that make sense?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think that um it's a really it's a really interesting point about trying to suppress the fight or flight um response.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because I I remember having it, and it was actually in like the last season that I was healthy a good good couple of years ago, and um it was at no fault of of my brother Sam, but my my my uh build-up and my process going into the race was being extremely calm and channeling everything inwards.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and he said to me on you know one of the days before the race, he's like, you know, get up for it, like get hyped.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like he was a lot more hyped on the start line watching than I showed outwardly.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that was at the start of the season, and I then spent almost the rest of the season trying trying to get myself amped up more than I naturally would.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that then I feel probably put a uh an added pressure that wasn't beneficial in the race.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it's something that going back into racing, I'd be interested to see, you know, is it is it determining your own rhythm of because you get people that they're slapping their legs, they're slapping their face, like casting.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: I do do that.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's more just to get the blood flowing rather than to put off my competitors.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, anyway, so it has it so that's a so that's a um blood flow.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: Is that why everyone does it?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know why other people do it.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: For me, I find that I do it because it just gets me in the headspace.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, it's just something like so like physical, it's like this gets you going there and then.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: But it's I don't do it to psych how other people it may have that lovely unintended consequence.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's not why I do it though, no.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think no, your pre your presence, you know, anyways is intimidating.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's all good.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: You just you're just there, there beside them.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: But um yeah, is is it the is it down to how you like have you tried have you tried the opposite?
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: Have you tried different things that seem to seem to work?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Is that how you landed on that with your with your psychologist?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: I mean we've tried different things, um, but nothing really seemed to work.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: I think it was understanding.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: What did you try?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: What did we try?
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think sort of motivational self-talk was one.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god, I actually can't remember what I was doing before.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: I can remember also I think it works better for me because I remember what did work, and I almost don't it's almost less useful to remember things which didn't work because they're sort of irrelevant to me.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's just like isn't it's it's not important, is that in fact it just takes it away because then I know I'll be spending extra energy doing something which like doesn't do anything for me.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think there was a bit of self-talk in there, maybe some visualizing, but I can't really remember what it was.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: This was a minute ago, we've tried a few things.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I definitely think that's been how long have you been working with your sports psych for?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: Since mid- No.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: Mid-2023?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: No, it was Okay, oh, so good for you?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: No, 2024.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: Shoot, no, it was 24 because um I was on placement when I met her for the first time.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, 2024, yeah.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: And the things that you would talk about has the has the goal changed in terms of running, in terms of what you want to get out of it?
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: Is it is it all results based?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: Is some of it process based?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Is it enjoyment?
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of what what are the what are the main Main things that you've really benefited from the experience?
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think results are downstream from the other two.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think process is also downstream from enjoyment, I think, if you don't enjoy it.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like that that's the key.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: You need to enjoy the thing.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like I do this for a job and I love it, but I have to really enjoy it.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: Because especially like there are some really tough elements to it.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I think enjoyment's the most important thing, and then the process.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: And then once in the other process, ultimately that's all that matters, because then the result will happen.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever happens will happen.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: I know it can sound quite wishy-washy, but ultimately, if you've done everything you can do in your sort of way position, your warm-up, your priming, then ultimately the result's the result.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't yeah, you know, you say say wishy-washy.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think it is you know, some part of it is that stoic approach of controlling the controllables.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then it is and then it's just the it's the dynamic nature, especially of an 800 when you're in lanes, you're up against other people, yeah, you're not going to be able to control everything.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that's exactly right.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's actually one of the things which I do remember now is the reason why for me championship running is so much more taxing for me mentally, and so much more stressful than sort of time trial running, is that you've got to deal with other variables which you can't control, in that case being other people with their own plants.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like with the time trial, you know, in an ideal world, you're just sat in a train, and then it's just down to you know, how well did you prepare and how is your training leading up to it?
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: And like those are the variables, and you've controlled them, great, you get a good result.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: Or you don't, and then if you don't, you you try and figure out what went wrong.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: But with championship racing, it's anything could happen.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think actually trying to get on trying to get on top of that has been quite tough, I've had.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: What have you found the most the most difficult about it?
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Is the is it the um the unpredictability of it, or is it actually that you're do you need to change your tactics going into each of those more you know open me time trial races versus the championships?
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think this year I've started to change my tactics more because there have been some people who like do are known for taking out the race, so there'sn't there would be no point in me necessarily like doing their work for them.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um sorry, what was the first thing you said?
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um do you you know, is it managing the expectations of how unpredictable it is, uh, or is it tactics-based?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think it's more tactics-based.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, with the expectations, I think no one's got more sort of expectations than myself, and I know I can deal with my own expectations, so that's not really a problem.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's more the tactics side of things where I don't know if I'm gonna get cut up or boxed or sent to the back, which seems to be happening quite a lot this year, or a manner of other things.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's the problem, it's just am I going to be put in a position outside of my control which isn't great?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: And ultimately you can get around that with sort of ideal tactics, and that's something else I'm working on.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that's the more stressful element, it's just sort of losing control of like I guess positioning, really, and not being able to react like when you want to react or do or have agency to choose to like go around someone when you'd want to.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: I really dislike that in a race.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and how I mean, could you describe because there'll there'll be those some people listening to this that might not even know anything about the 800 meter race at all, but could you describe how it feels?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: What does it feel like when you are running the race and like you say, trying to make these moves react and put yourself in the best spot?
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think first 200, I need to work on this.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's always a shock.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'm always like, bloody hell, this is this is fast and whatnot.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: Every time I can't it always happens, and then two to four hundred, I get into a groove, and then it starts to feel like good, it starts to feel strong, and then with 300 to go, ultimately I know that I've got to make a choice now to go, and it's really that simple.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: Then with 200 meters to go, you're just giving everything, so it's fine.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think that that's how I tend to approach racing.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: And what's the what is that feeling like once you've decided with 200 to go?
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: What's the because we know the 800 is pretty a pretty brutal event for the last the last 100?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: What does it feel like in in the legs, in the body, in the mind, in that in that last 25 to 28 seconds?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: No, attached to you right.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: And this might be quite controversial, but I think it's the easiest part of the race.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: And no, the reason is is because there's not like you are going 100%, and maybe you're saving a little bit for the last 120 or 100, like fine.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: But I don't know, when I I find the last hundred of an 800, I am not like I cannot feel like lactic burn, or maybe it's the morton, maybe it's the bicarb, but I I can't I can't feel that, or I don't notice the breathing.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: All I'm trying to do is just keep going forwards and stop slowing down.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: And then when it's I guess technically things should be really hurting, and I do notice myself.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: The only thing I notice is actually just slowing down, and there's literally nothing I can do about it.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's the only thing I really noticed in the last hundred, and I find that that's fine.
• 27:53
  unknown: Yeah.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I guess you've already you've already committed, you just gotta write it out.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: You've already committed, and it's but it's it's almost like I genuinely do not notice the breathing of the lactic in the last hundred.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: I noticed it way more at the start of the race.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I can't use that thing too much.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know Yeah, is it because I don't know, trying to trying to think if it's if there is a bit of a decision fatigue like in your mind because the there's a you know there's a lack of um you basically can't do anything else other than just run as fast as you can, but because it is a a paced like you know, race, you you can't just go flat out the whole time.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: No, um yeah, you you just gotta trust trust the legs.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it is that maybe it's just it's just so simple at the end of the race that you've just got to go flat out.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just there are no other thoughts.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's it.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: Just focus on your form, and that's all.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it is that.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't thought of that before it's good.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Does it um do you think it comes and and let's say let's say that it's not, let's say that you are let's say that you just don't feel pain as much as as your general person.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean anyone that picks up.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure about that.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure about that.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and is it like what in in training what comes what comes easy to you and what is difficult?
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: Is putting yourself into a hole easy?
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I think yeah, there could be lots of answers to this question.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think at the minute we're doing tempo threshold, more slower work, and that's really tough at the minute.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: Right now it's really tough, but it's tough because I'm not as fit, like I'm unfit, therefore it's harder.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like if I'm doing the same work even at the same corresponding heart rate when I'm fit, it's absolutely fine.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's a it's a bizarre thing, even if the heart rate's proportional, and say you're working within the right zone, it's still harder when you're less fit, and I can't describe why.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: And it's and it's sort of amplified the faster you go up to a point.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I think for me, I remember, God, this year we did 10, 400s, and it wasn't even that fast, and the other guys were going way off in front of me, and I was just thinking, like, I was really working hard, and it felt horrible, but I also know that I did the same session I don't know a few months earlier, and it was like subjectively felt so much faster and sorry, so much easier, and I was going faster.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think yeah, how I mean, how do you deal with that the fluctuations in how you're feeling in the session?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do you how do you judge it?
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think it fluctuates session to session.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think it fluctuates on fitness.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: So how I deal with it is by not getting injured and therefore not losing fitness, it would be, which is probably like chucking a plaster on it, but yeah.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then of course, like because I've seen you know, in terms of adapting your training, um you mentioned heart rate, you mentioned those those metrics that you use to judge your judge your training.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: How yeah, how can you best keep up that fitness when you are injured?
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: Depends on the person, I think.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: So for me, I think the elliptical is the best.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: Other people they can really get on get on well on the bike.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: Other people hate both and they swim.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I can't understand that last one at all, but you know, more power to them.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um no swimming.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, no.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: You can get me down.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: I will go down a rabbit hole if you get me on this.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's fine.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think if people like that, why why why not why not swimming?
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: Go on.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: Oh no, I just I find it really hard to say get the heart rate up, and also be I just I just like the feeling of water going in like my nose.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: Literally wear a nose nose plug, is that you?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm not a no I won't I won't sleep that low, but I still won't know.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's not the offending nose plug users out there though, more power to you.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm sure they do, and and those that um those that you know will jump into a swimming pool and hold their nose.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's yeah, oh there's no judgment here.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's no judgment.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: No, you're not you're not gonna go into a pool and tell people how to be because you're not gonna be anywhere near one.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: No, I ideally, yeah, nowhere near one.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: If they want to do what they want to do, yeah, fine.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: So why do how did you land on the elliptical then?
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, sort of process of elimination, really.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think the bike, and I'm just talking from my own experience.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I know from speaking to other people they've had similar experiences, but this isn't me saying this is how it is.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think I find on the bike, my quads they do a lot of the work, and that means that there is a limit to the heart rate I can reach.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: And generally on a cross-trainer, I know I would tend to be doing probably more of the aerobic base work if I was injured, just to try and maintain that base so it's easier to get back.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_02: And that's I find that really hard to do on the bike, especially like after 20 minutes, your leg.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, before that, your legs just they want to give up.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, at least for me.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I mean, I've never done aqua jogging.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: I've heard anecdotally, you can get your heart rate up quite high.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but at least I found with the elliptical you can use your arms as well.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that's quite nice.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: And you And is go on, go on.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not, I mean, look, I'm just talking from my own experience.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's harder to get the heart rate up, obviously, when you're doing the elliptical when you're running, but I think it's the best of the limited options available to you.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: So would you say that would you say that when when you're cross-training, you know, how much of a percentage is it compared to your actual running fitness in your experience?
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well, the thing is, my sorry, I'm getting given another asterisk.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think my experience is also different because I'm a very tender-knee runner.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: So sort of, I guess some tool I I can do that.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: But the problem is I need ground impact to be able to train properly.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: And when I'm on the elliptical, obviously the whole point is that you're low impact because you've injured.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so I find that I find it really hard to get the training I need.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: To get adaptation, I need to be running, I just need to be running.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: So, well, as a percentage, it's hard to say.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think for some people, like I know some of my friends over the years, like they've been able to keep like vast amounts of their fitness on the cross trainer because maybe they just they just run differently, they're not as tendon-based, they don't need the impact as much.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, for me it's yeah, it's completely opposite.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: And could you yeah, could you go into a bit more that?
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: What does that mean in terms of being more tendon, tendon-based?
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: What does that mean?
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh god, yeah.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: Does does any could you yeah, could you elaborate on on that?
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna struggle with you, I'll be honest.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's not something I need to research more.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think I've got a very large, okay, this may be completely irrelevant, um, sort of plantar sort of arch.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: So very tall arch, at least, and I think I'm right in saying this when I like press down to the ground, the arch flattens out and it gives you a lot of elastic power to push off.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: And uh as well as that, I've got like quite long Achilles tendons and they do a lot of the heavy lifting as well.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm not quite sure on the science and physics behind why tendon runners run the way they do, but there is definitely a like you know, right?
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: Tendered runners are a thing, right?
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, I can't.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard briefly before.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: I have to be honest, I haven't um yeah, I haven't really spoken at at length, but then again, I've I've been out the neither have I, that's the thing.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't I don't get the choice choice to the chance to be a tender runner or not.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: Just yeah.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's interesting.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not just so there are there any other ways when you're when you're sidelined from from running, how else do you make the best of your time when you're when you're injured?
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you do your best with the aerobic base.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously the impact is is minimal because that's the whole that's the whole recovery process.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: How else do you make the most of these setbacks?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: How do you approach it?
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, spending more time in the gym as well.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think pre-habbing whatever you've done, essentially.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if it's a bone stress response, there's nothing you can do, you've just got to roll with it.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_02: But say you've got Achilles tendinopathy, then I'd be in the gym every day doing like cart phrases, for example, provided that's what the physio said is okay.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then I think there needs to be like every time I get injured, there is a moment where in order to stay consistent, I need to learn what what went wrong so it won't happen again.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know, for example, um a few years ago my IT band really blew up and I was out for 10 weeks.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: It was it was really bad.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, yeah, I yeah.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: I remember the two things which I need to do regularly, and you know, for the past four years now, I haven't not done these.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I get little like you know, the massage balls, like the little, like not tennis balls, but they've like got bits inside them, like rolling my um my glute mead.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: Because the glut mead and the TFL, they both, they're muscles which join together, and they join a band of fascia which goes down to the which is the IT band which goes down to the knee.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: So if one's stronger than the other, then that pulls that that band, that connective tissue, and it causes the sort of clicking and information in the knee.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I found releasing the glut mead and TFL with a ball if they get tight, and also every gym session I do three by 30 seconds of they're called it banded hip hip abductions.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I kind of get a hip um a band around my ankles, and I go into a side plank position and I sort of resist that band with the leg on top, and I I do that every single gym session.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: So that's just an example of what I what I do as a result of sort of learning from a previous injury to make sure it doesn't happen again.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a very long, yeah, long way of saying sort of figuring out what went wrong so it doesn't happen again.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I think I think it's like it's extremely relevant because it's it really is shifting the perspective of oh, I've you know, I've got injured.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: Damn, that's annoying.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm out, let me get back as quickly as possible to the perspective of I've got injured.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: There's a weakness in some aspect of either um my you know strength or load management in training, like you highlighted right at the start, yeah, and and learning from it.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: I I do I don't think that can be understated as a process.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like I know it so it sounds simple when you say it, you're like, well, you're learning from mistakes, but the way that psychologically, the way that injuries can can affect us, especially athletes, where you are measured very much on how fast you run, let's say, although there is the enjoyment in it, yeah.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um it is it's very close to home to to them point the finger at and you know, not not necessarily the blame game, but there is like there's something wrong.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um was that's was that a perspective shift that you had going through your career with with those injuries?
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, some of them just kept happening again and again and again.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a point which you just say, look, you just need to this isn't normal.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: You just need to get down to the reason of why this is happening.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you just have to figure it out.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like ultimately, it otherwise you just get into the cycle of something hurts, you go to the physio, you have a prehab, you're out for a little bit, and then you go back again, and it's just it's the same cycle again and again and again.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I think just at least for that specific injury, just try and break free from the cycle, and then something else might happen for whatever reason, and then there's always a reason for something happening, and sometimes it can be something out of your control, but most of the times, you know, it's not or sorry, most of the time, sorry, it is something in your control.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's it's kind of complex, isn't it?
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because you don't necessarily there are lots of variables at play.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, 100%.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: You you might not be able to pin um pin the reason on one thing, but I remember after, yeah, I had um the the IT band like specifically, and if you get if you get knee pain, it is it's most likely not necessarily the knee itself, it is normally the hips or the glutes.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: Is like it's a rule of thumb that I went by, very, very like simplified.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I go, oh, I've got knee pain.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm, let me check my glutes and my hips.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and like that, that ball, you know, that ball release that you do on your TFL and your glute mead, yeah, that's that's painful.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it works miracles.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's not nice, yeah.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, it is bloody tough work, yeah.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: What else have you learned in the in the weight room?
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's quite it's probably um quite understated how important.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, strength and conditioning now, I've seen obviously as I mean as a personal trainer, it's on my it's on my feed just from a general perspective, but uh definitely going into track and field, into athletics, it's super important.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um what else have you learned about your body and the way that you train through strength and conditioning?
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think the main one, um I think it can only be described as spamming car phrases.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_02: So what so I am yeah, I do seated and sanding car phrases every gym session, and even if I'm in season, so normally when we're like we're going into season, we'd reduce.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, for hang cleans, we'd maybe go to sets of maybe two or three, or even one if it's right before a race.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_02: For car phrases, it doesn't matter where I am, I would always do three sets of 12 as like as much as my like Selaeus or Gastro can handle for each one.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I found that has been so crucial in avoiding so many Achilles pains, which has happened over the years.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: Achilles and plummetar as well, actually, because obviously they're connected.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's the main one.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um little tweak.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_02: So you know the the hip flexor exercise when you've got sort of a weight around your foot, and you've got a dorsal flex of your foot and you've got to just like hold it there, and that's your that's your hold.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_02: I found that stressed out my tib and by doing that because obviously you've got to maintain the dorsiflexion, the weights trying to resist that and pull that down.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: So what I um I've just got some like oh my god, what they call it, um uh ankle straps of Amazon, and then you know the cable machine.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I just pulled the, and this might be a common thing people do, I'm not too sure.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_02: But I just pulled the sort of grip down to the bottom, and then I just set the weight on something which I would replicate with those hold.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I found that that completely because it's around the ankle, it has completely negated the tib and strain.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like little things like that, it's just small things, and like so many guys can do that, and it's absolutely fine.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_02: But for me, my shins would not be very happy, so yeah, it's got to work around sort of physical limitations.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, no, it is that that is exactly what it is because and it's the same if um you know if someone has uh a grip, grip strength issue, like you can put a cuff around your wrists and still, if you still want to work your triceps, let's say.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it is looking at the the muscle that's being worked, and then understanding the you know the physiology behind it to think, you know, with with the hip flexor, you know, what's it gonna do?
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: How can you make it contract?
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: How can you work it in in the positions that are needed for for running?
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh well yeah, exactly.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then and then you and then you work back from that, and it is it is a bit.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the the I guess the the inj injury.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Gives you time to experiment, right?
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe out of boredom, maybe out of curiosity, maybe out of necessity, you find some fun other things and ways to work your way around it.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think you need to figure out, I guess, how you how that muscle is used when you're running.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not an SNC coach, but how is that muscle used functionally?
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: How are you going to train that?
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: And how you're going to train that in an effective way, which doesn't, I guess, impede other things.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm very lucky that I've got an SNC coach who really helps me out with that.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: But for your average person, that is quite tough to figure out.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, I think I it is.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: And there are fortunately there's a lot of information online, and you can kind of maybe, you know, AI your way to it.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, how important is how how important is it to have those physical sounds bizarre, but those physical people there to support you and give you advice?
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how important is that environment that you've got now?
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's so important.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's sound and there's noise, and the internet is just full of noise, you've got everyone's got their own opinion, but ultimately they don't know your body, they don't know like all the intricate nuances, and the people who like I surround myself with just like cut straight through the noise, and nine times out of ten they're completely right, and when they're not, we go back and we fix it.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's so hard, you can have such analysis paralysis on the internet.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's yeah, I don't know, unless it's such a general problem.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_02: I really try and see someone first, but also I'm lucky because you know I've got a specialized person who you know I'm part of a program, so it's easy, but for someone who doesn't have that, that's a completely different story, and then you know, obviously there are financial problems, and then you would look to the internet, but if you're doing that, that's that's not easy.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean you get you get you get a cheap answer because it's free.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um unless you pay uh for clawed premium.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, right, and that's where you get the real the real That's where you get the renew.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um with yeah, how long?
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: I guess it's it's how do you determine between even when you have those people around you, how do you determine between good pain and bad pain on your recovery?
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think you you really cut it uh to the point.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_02: My coach keeps saying there is a really fine line.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_02: So take it at the minute, I've had a bunch of shin pains right in the paint place where my stress response was, and it was so easy to think, okay, oh god, it's happening again, I've getting another one.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: But like that, that's a really hard example because there was real there was no distinguish distinguishing sort of metrics between then and now.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I'm making any sense.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think it ultimately it's uh for me, it's learning my body and exactly what a good kind of pain and pain is and what a bad kind of pain is, and I think the only way of figuring that out is through exposure.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, is it yeah?
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_00: So you're saying that it's not something that you can either necessarily be told nor have without experiencing it.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's that certain I don't know if they say injury is a part of sport.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: Do you see sometimes as a necessity as part of the learning process?
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: Is it the cost of business?
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, yeah.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: No, I think you're right.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_02: So you had a really good point, which I really wanted to mention something about.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, there you go.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_02: So there are different types of pain, I guess.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_02: You've got like if someone says, okay, well, if if it's a three out of ten, then don't train on it.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_02: But that could mean so many different things, and generally that's good advice.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: But also, if it's a burning pain or a sharp pain or a dull pain, there are you have to be able to subjectively figure that out for yourself.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_02: And ultimately, I mean, maybe someone could tell you, and you might be able to associate someone's words with what your brain's interpreting as pain, but that's tough.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_02: I think you've just got to figure it out, unfortunately.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean like numbers, numbers are only so good a guide, right?
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like someone's three is another person's five, and sometimes it's down to the results of how you how it responds, and then in the moment it might feel okay, and then it's a shame that afterwards it then feels bad, and you're like, Well, how do I do that in the moment?
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's like for example, there are so many pains I've had recently where they own I mean this is the way you want it, but they only hurt when I was walking around and then refined when I was running.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like there's there is no there's no guidebook for this.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes you just gotta figure it out.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: Do they do they go through the idea of phantom pains with you through the interim process?
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_02: Well, with the stress response, definitely.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I remember I had I think I was in Poch in January, and I had I started to get some pain in my shin, and that did freak me out, but it was apparently it was just phantom pain.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: Apparently, all the physiological markers for are you getting another stress response back, like hopping up and down on the leg was fine.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_02: But there was like there was some pain, but it was actually phantom pain, and uh but I've only had it with my stress response.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't really had phantom pain with other sort of injuries I've had.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe what have you had sort of phantom pain wise?
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, I'm asking the interviewer, but I'm curious to know.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: No, well, well, I guess yeah, I've um a few, a few, but it's it's a really weird thing.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, first of all, it's a um it's a bit of a mind fuck.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's also a little bit like you gotta protect your ego with it because being told that you're making something up is not a nice thing to be told.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: No, not at all.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: You want to turn around and be like, Well, you're now having a go at my sense of self.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: I know my body, like, sharp.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I've certainly it is actually pain though.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: No, but no, you're right though, it it is actually pain.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's the thing.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's just not pain connected to an injury.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, go go into that.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: How is it how is it pain, but it's not connected to the injury?
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: How's it?
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I've got degree in this, but I'm gonna struggle to answer that question, mate.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's a tough one.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think maybe the body's got some residual awareness of the pain you had before.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe it's sort of sending out a sort of a distress call in case something's happening, but actually there's no substance behind it.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not entirely sure about the science of phantom pain.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: I guess it's like it's protection, isn't it?
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's um Yeah.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: And and they do and you do say that like pain is in the brain, which again is not a nice pain.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's like, no, it's in my leg.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's in my leg.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's not it's clearly not in my brain, but it is obviously the nerve signals, and we have it so much at at the gym with especially the demographic that we have coming down to Barn, is those their 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, and lower back pain is the one that is most prominent.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_00: I bet it is, yeah.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it is, you know, though you are like near your near your spine, you're gonna be a lot more sensitive.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: Of course you are, yeah.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's a really tough one.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: It is really it is really difficult um to distinguish between between the two.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I guess yeah, it is that there's only you know, there's only so much that you can be told before you just have to trust and then adapt and and reflect.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: I guess do you do you have a a reflection practice as you're going through these periods of training that keeps you on track and keeps you where you want to be?
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_02: Well in the in the pain department, as in sort of like I mean just in just in trade just in training in general.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um reflection is an interesting one.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think I'm I'm not sure if this directly answers your question, but what I do quite like to do is I like to compare, and I think this is quite bad.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_02: I I like to compare the session I did, because it's obviously it's all in Strava, to a previous exact same session I did.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe when I and I can I can sort of see the period whether I was like fit or unfit, and I can compare.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_02: So that's probably not the best type of reflection.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like we tend to do reflection at the end of the season, this and that's when we we go through everything, we look at training and like the different blocks of when we did different types of sessions.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think I agree reflection needs to be a continuous process rather than just once a year with a milestone.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_02: I do find it it's something I need to work on, I think.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_02: I need to start reflecting sort of actively more and probably in a more healthy way.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_02: Because ultimately, I guess if you're coming back from injury and you're comparing to when you were fit for the same session, then finding out that you were going for faster times then is not really helping you, it's not going to change what you're doing, it's just gonna make you feel rubbish, but I still do it anyway.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_00: What's the if you don't mind me asking, what's the um what's the kind of the the urge to to compare?
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because it sounds like yeah, like mentally, cognitively, you understand that there is you know that you are different people almost than where you were.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: But that compulsion to do is so it's strong, right?
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like well it's because I obviously because I would have done this before this was my job.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think and I did.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's more I want to be able to tell myself that I'm fit and everything's working, therefore, if I look at a session, my session and it's just as good, if not better, than a previous session, therefore I'm in a great place, essentially.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I wanna it's nice feeling that you're in a in a good place, and so sort of checking that, but then the downside of that is that some of the time, like all of this year, from like March onwards, I haven't been.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_02: So actually comparing does more harm than good.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a it is it is tough, isn't it?
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's um yeah, yeah, they're good comparisons and but and and not so good comparisons.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um but they do really give you confidence at the right time.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_02: Well but also comparison is also a good thing.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's like my coach would use this and say, like, Adno, it's a really good marker.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_02: So say Adno.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure if I have it on this.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_02: Last year I did two 600s.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just making up times on the spot, but say 118 before a 144, and then that's actually a really good marker for fitness.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_02: So you'd know that this year, if I do the two 600s and I do 118 or faster, then I know I'm in if not the better shape, but then that's also not taken into account other things.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_02: But it is it is a very good comparative tool.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_02: I just think it's got its time and place, and I think for reflection, it's probably not that.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: So do you get do you get your confidence from from training?
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: Is that where you get a lot more confidence?
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_02: I do, yeah.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_02: More so rather than just the times, obviously the times are very nice, but it's I know you'll get this, it's like the feeling of just being fit and doing a really I I don't know.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_02: I find it more on the like the more VO2 sessions, like saying I'm doing like 800s or K's, and you can just bash them out and it feels great.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think that gives me more confidence than necessarily looking at a time, which is also lovely, but I think this the feeling of being fit is just so good.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: Can you yeah, can you describe what that what that feeling is like?
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because most most people I you know might might have an idea of running is just pain and suffering.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um but but the yeah, what is that feeling of being fit like?
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's almost like I find as you're in a such a great flow and mechanically the body's moving so smoothly and the breathing is like under control, I feel, and it's just the thought of just moving really well.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_02: I can it's it's hard to describe because it's a feeling, but it's like you're just going really fast around the track and everything just feels great, and it's sort of hard to sort of put that into words.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_02: No, I I know you I know you've all get that.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, it's it is that it is that idea of not I see it as not forcing it, and um there's not as much resistance, you're not like trying too hard.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: You're putting in effect there's a balance between putting in effort and trying too hard.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's kind of where it sits, for me at least.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_02: It sounds like describing it.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sorry, yeah.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then in the enjoyment side of it, what do you enjoy the most about you say you do it, you know, even if it wasn't your job.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: What do you what do you enjoy the most about running?
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_02: There are so many elements.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think obviously there's just the act of getting fitter is great.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think movement is wonderful, I think being outside, I really enjoy running.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like I always come back to run it in the lake district, and it was just you know, it was as on paper as just a normal run, but you know, it's just being sort of outside, sort of like touching grass, and just like enjoying it.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's also a social element of it as well.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like this is my job now, and that means I've graduated from uni, which means all the people I would have spoken to at uni, they've gone, they've you know, they're doing their own thing, which means my social time is now exclusively like running, so that's also tied to it now.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there are lots of things which I sort of really enjoy about running.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then there's also the the satisfaction from putting in all the hard work and then you get a nice result at the end.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_02: But I think just knowing that the result is the sort of culmination of lots of processes stacked on each other.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_02: So it's lovely to see in retrospect, but I think yeah, it's more the processes.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think yeah, having that what something represents, um, and understanding that it's so much more than you know, the result the result in some cases is is important, maybe at the end of the day.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's um it it might it might be a little bit sometimes, you know, maybe down to some form of luck, but a lot of it is is down to that hard work and dedication, and it's it is that all bundled up in one moment, right, when it culminates.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's hard work and dedication and also doing the right thing which works for you, which also does sound really wishy-washy.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_02: But I know it's figuring primarily figuring out what that is for me.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, sorry, what that is like for you, sort of as a person.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_02: So for me, that would be more endurance work.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_02: I know that's what I really need.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_02: And hard work and dedication is really important, but if you're so if you're not putting the effort in the right area, I know.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_02: So say I was working really hard and I was just doing 200 reps all the time, then I wouldn't be a good 800 runner.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_02: But I know what I need is just a silly amount of sort of tempo and threshold and VO2 work, and that's that's what I need as a runner.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'll say I know that sounds really obvious, but yeah, sometimes.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, no.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think I do think that I don't think it's I mean it's even if things are obvious, I don't think it doesn't mean they're not valuable.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um especially when I think what you're you know what you're talking about definitely is is speed with direction.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're doing you're putting in the effort in the right places rather than just putting in the effort for the sake of putting in the effort.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um in a world where we could just put in effort and whatever, it's like no no, you could you could actually try less and just go in the right direction and you get more out of it.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_02: 100%.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's like I don't know, you're revising for a test and you just spend the entire time reading the textbook and you spend a lot of effort reading the textbook, but you haven't done any practice, for example.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_00: On the uh recovery side of things, how do you how has first of all your recovery routine changed since you've got a lot more time to dedicate to your craft?
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and what are your best forms of recovery?
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think the routine's the same.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think the most important thing is in no particular order, so I guess it's not the most important thing.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_02: The most important things are I guess eating uh straight after for me, um, or just eating straight after.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um I've got my normal text down here, whether I found they they work great.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um time off feet.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, I've got the privilege of that, so I can choose to not go to work and then like just go to training sessions, and that's really good.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_02: But ultimately, I guess recovery is what you do all the time outside of training.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_02: So that you know, that includes sleep, eating well, hydrating well, uh de-stressing, which could be I guess be in the form of seeing friends, but then I guess you've also got to bear in mind that you want to spend enough time off feet.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm sort of going on a tangent, but I think there are lots of different recovery is a lot of things bundled up into one term.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_02: So you can say normaltechs are great, and normaltechs are great, but also I don't know, they mean nothing if you're not getting good sleep or you're not I don't know, drinking enough, or you could be eating enough, but you could also be eating enough of the wrong stuff.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_02: And obviously, as a runner or anyone doing fitness, it's better to eat more stuff than less.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_02: But what's better than that is eating more of the right stuff.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it I 100%.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's all it's one of those things where like it could be labelled as anything outside of training to help you recover for the next session because that is goal.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_00: Is it's part of it, right?
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, some things are just more quantifiable than than others.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's good.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_00: What are you what are your trade-offs?
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like you've mentioned social, but you want to be off feet.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, what are your trade-offs?
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's a tough one.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so okay, say for example, I really want to go and do photography with my girlfriend.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's one of the things I'm trying to get into to keep my mind sort of active whilst I'm a runner.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_02: But to do that means I have to spend time walking around outside the house, which is tough because that means I'm spending more time on my feet.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think there's an element where spending some time outside is good, but actually finding the balance for that, and how much is too much, how much is too little.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think also from a social element, there are obviously there are restrictions, there are things you can and can't do.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_02: Not necessarily I wouldn't choose to go out, but I don't know, meeting someone to play golf, let's think of an example, would inherently be tougher, even though it's technically not a unhealthy thing and you're still getting all your sleep and you're not drinking whatever it's still tough.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_00: 15,000 steps straight off the bat.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't know if that answers your question.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but there are Yeah, I think yeah, I mean, is is there a balance between um knowing that something is gonna adversely affect your training and then this this the stress itself or the weighing up itself contributing to how useful the the recovery method is?
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think spending more time weighing it up could add does add more stress.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I think just choosing something and going with it's important, but I guess you just have to go with your gut and just know what is where the line is, which is also quite tough.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like, are you doing too much for to impede your recovery?
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I think right now I think I'm probably doing too much time off feet.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm still doing things, but they're not necessarily, you know, maybe meeting a friend for coffee wouldn't be the end of the world for the running.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_02: But actually what it would do is just reduce stress.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_02: And it's also just a reduction.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_00: How much does it really impact, you know, is there a certain element of have you been told by coaches, physios, um, how many steps you should be limited to outside of your training?
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_02: No, nothing like that.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think I just kind of I kind of just know where the limit is.
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_02: And it is tough because obviously the most important thing has to be being I think this is the difference.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_02: The most important thing is having to be fresh for that next session and that session, and it doesn't mean that everything else is viewed in a wider context.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, seeing a friend for coffee, I know it sounds trivial, but you know, it's more time on feet and other things, which is tough, and like ultimately it's probably fine, but it's just little things like that.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_00: Have you got a uh a lime scooter that you you bought or one of those?
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_02: I've got a bike, but it's rusty as hell, so I I tried to go.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, probably tougher put probably tougher than walking then.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um in terms of I guess going back to uh like your Commonwealth Games experience.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me more about what that was like.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_02: It was unbelievable.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, I've got a few things here.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I've got um I've got Gwen the Welsh Dragon here.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh she was on our beds uh when we when we got to Glasgow.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_02: No, it was an unbelievable like whole experience.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_02: So for the Welsh team, we were lucky enough we had a little holding camp off in Monte Gordo in Portugal, which was great.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_02: That was like seven days, it was directly after the London Diamond League, and actually on a tangent, I was really annoyed because my I was flying the same day of Diamond League and I was walking outside the stadium the moment Josh Kerr broke the world record, which was like oh no, I was oh no, it was depressed.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_02: I I could have been there, it's like I've seen people stories of guys who I raced with and they were on the finish line.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, oh, what have I done?
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_02: What have I done?
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_02: But also, I would have missed my train if I had um if I'd waited, so trade.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that was a trade-off.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that there you go, there's a trade-off.
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um so yeah, and it was really nice.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_02: We had a week in Portugal and we had the whole Welsh team coming together.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_02: It was just I know it's it's a very unique experience because everyone feels like it's a very close team.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_02: I've been on other teams before, but it hasn't really felt like that, where you know we're all just like chilling out in the hotel lounge area just playing like endless traitors games or like Monopoly Deal, and it was great, it was really, really good.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_02: And sort of the staff and the athletes sort of like mixing together was really, really nice as well.
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_02: And even, I don't know, I remember when we were all it was the day before things kicked off, our team captains, it was uh Harrison and Melissa, uh Melissa called you grant, they they sort of sat us down in the main restaurant area, and they delivered probably the best sort of pair of speeches I've ever heard by team captains.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_02: It was great, and it was so personal, I think it's because it's sort of split up and you could probably lean into the patriotism more.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_02: It was it was so well done, and they were talking about their personal experiences of like when you know, when one Commonwealth games went really well and the other one went shockingly, and like it happens, but they I don't do them a disservice by misquoting them, but they did a really good job.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_02: And the one thing I remember really well, I've got it here, um, what Harrison used to do with his Welsh rugby team is they'd cut up a Welsh flag after I don't know, maybe after a season or a match, and you'd each member would take a part of that flag back with them, and then they'd always remember that that flag, because it was only cut in that specific way, could only have been made by that team.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a way to remember it by.
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_02: So what I've got here is I've got a little bit of the it's part of the wing.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know which way it's oh that's a lot bigger than I thought it was gonna be.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that was a big bloody flag, mate.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was huge.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, no, brilliant.
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_02: 18 ways, 17 ways.
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, small team, but yeah, even so.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_02: So that was really good.
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think that sort of emphasises a team element, which was totally unique.
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um there was also there was a lot of cross-team chatting, and that probably was helped by the fact that we had pinned collection, which I'm sure people know about.
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um cross-team chatting.
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, sort of between countries.
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know why I'm going to fit it there.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, it's like just walk up to a bunch of Aussies and I sit down with them, and I'm just saying, right, do do basically do any of you have a koala?
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_02: I've got a Gwen the Dragon pin here, anyone want to trade?
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_02: And it's nice because then like you sit down for a minute and you chat, and you know, I met someone from Norfolk Island just walking around.
• 1:09:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know, most people don't know where Norfolk Island is, it's off the coast of Australia, by the way.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_02: And like I've never heard of it before in my life.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_02: Or I know I managed to chat to a bunch of Fijians who are like the most lovely people ever, and it's great.
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_02: You just chat to all these people.
• 1:09:49
  SPEAKER_02: And it's also unique because you're not in GB kit, you're in a once in every four years.
• 1:09:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of like Olympic kit, it's it's completely different.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_02: You'll only see this kit once.
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, it does it does have a a unique, a unique like viewing feel as well.
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, well, yeah, for those who actually manage to get to watch it.
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_02: Which is a separate point, yeah.
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, what's the talk to me more about that, about that feeling of um flying the you know, the Welsh flag rather than the the great British, the Union Jack, the Union flag.
• 1:10:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think obviously both make you immensely proud, I think.
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_02: They're just different though, because I think the British flag makes you more like with your under 23s, that was more sort of general, I guess general patriotism, I don't know how to describe it, but with the Welsh flag, it's it's very specific.
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's more tied to at least for me, memories of a place and sort of a a general fondness.
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, because I remember on the start line, I remember thinking about all the things I would do in Wales, maybe when visiting my girlfriend, uh like going for runs or like doing sessions and this really nice lovely um canal path and abbecavenny, and I rem and I was thinking about that a lot on the start line, and I think with the Welsh flag specifically, and maybe like with the Scott, and uh yeah, I bet with the Scots and the Scottish flag or whatever country, it's more tied to memories of a specific place, but I guess with the British flag, everything's included, so it's a bit more general, nonetheless proud, but it's just different.
• 1:11:29
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if that makes sense.
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_00: No, 100%.
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think it does.
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think it does.
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's probably also something that you know it's it's good to be proud to say it as well, and it's fine to have that different resemblance and feeling for you know representing your um your club versus your university and representing your country versus um you know Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um does it does it make you go for it, Gon.
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, no, sorry.
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's also I wanted to jump in, it's different because there are very few opportunities to represent Wales specifically, especially as an 800 runner.
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because realistically, you've got the love for international, which comes at a really rubbish point in the season for most people, so they don't do it, or uh just Commonwealth Games, like that's it.
• 1:12:21
  SPEAKER_02: For an 800 runner, that's all you've really got.
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_02: So obviously the GB team is very, very hard to get into, but there are more opportunities to get into it.
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_02: With the Welsh team, essentially it's once every four years, so uh of course it's going to feel different because it's more rare, and and it's different for England because I guess England have more opportunities for that kind of thing.
• 1:12:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because it's a bigger country, maybe, but yeah.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Did it make you run any different?
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_00: Did you feel any different on the start line during the the races, those the rounds and and semis?
• 1:12:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think I probably ran the same.
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_02: Probably, in retrospect, compared to Euros indoors and under 23s.
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think it it felt the same.
• 1:13:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um similar kind of feeling.
• 1:13:09
  SPEAKER_02: I remember for Euro Under 23s, my parents were on the home straight and LGDB flag, now that was great.
• 1:13:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um and similarly, I remember at Commys, there was a bunch of people like right on like at the barrier of the track with like Welsh flags, and you could just see how much it meant to them, even like as the guy who's literally about to race.
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I wouldn't say it affected yeah, I wouldn't say it really affected how I raced.
• 1:13:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think both gives different sort of different feelings.
• 1:13:41
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how to describe it.
• 1:13:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's like they're both very special and very feel very privileged to have experienced both, but they are different.
• 1:13:52
  SPEAKER_00: What um what are you aiming towards in the you know in the next couple of years?
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_00: What are your big what are your big aspirations of in the sport?
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_02: Well, there's LA in 2028, so that's the big one.
• 1:14:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's the anyone who has a big target has a target for LA 28.
• 1:14:09
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Worlds next year, that's a really good one.
• 1:14:12
  SPEAKER_02: I just missed out on a team in 25.
• 1:14:15
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, if I don't put myself in a good spot this year, next year, I need I need to get myself put myself in a good spot for it.
• 1:14:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um there's also Euro Indoors as well.
• 1:14:25
  SPEAKER_02: I remember that in 25, that was a really, really good event.
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I think next three years, Eurindoors.
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if there's world indoors 28, I think there is.
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_02: And then World Outdoors.
• 1:14:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there must there must be it's every two years, right?
• 1:14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, so 26.
• 1:14:43
  SPEAKER_00: It was this year, so it'll be yeah, 28.
• 1:14:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and then yeah, world next year, and then limited games.
• 1:14:53
  SPEAKER_02: Skin round quick, hasn't it?
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_02: I swear Paris was like just happened.
• 1:14:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:14:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, true, true.
• 1:14:59
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm sure.
• 1:15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, is that how you do you view is your life in seasons?
• 1:15:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like you have your season, you have your off-season, you have your winter build.
• 1:15:09
  SPEAKER_00: Is that how you view like the months?
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_02: It is how I view my life.
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_02: I I view my years as starting in September.
• 1:15:17
  SPEAKER_00: Still from school, or is do you think that's school or do you think that's training?
• 1:15:21
  SPEAKER_02: Right, okay, yeah.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_02: The season ends in August, then you have a bit of off-season.
• 1:15:25
  SPEAKER_02: That yeah, that's how I view it.
• 1:15:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's not yeah, not from school at all.
• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's really and I mentioned it's really strange because I guess most people view it the other way, they go January to December.
• 1:15:37
  SPEAKER_02: But for me, it's like, oh, July's almost at the end of the year.
• 1:15:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:15:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, some people might even do the um clocks going forward and clocks going back as just like the good and the bad, but you know.
• 1:15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um well, Justin, thank you, thank you so much um for coming on.
• 1:15:58
  SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate it.
• 1:15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much for me.
• 1:16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um I wish you, yeah, wish you all the best.
• 1:16:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm looking forward to to seeing you know this this slow build into winter.
• 1:16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, fingers crossed that it's it goes as well as possible and get you yeah, get you out there with that that flowing style.
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one one more question that was on my mind is uh your Strava your Strava bio has changed.
• 1:16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Oh god, has it?
• 1:16:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, you're gonna surprise me here, go for it.
• 1:16:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I used to I I don't know, maybe this is just the Mandela effect, maybe this is me imagining it.
• 1:16:31
  SPEAKER_00: But um I saw maybe that you used to have it as Erling Haaland wannabe.
• 1:16:36
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I think it was.
• 1:16:38
  SPEAKER_02: That was that was a joke.
• 1:16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Erling Haaland has Erling Haaland has cut his hair.
• 1:16:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think.
• 1:16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he's completely shaved it.
• 1:16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Are you keeping the light?
• 1:16:48
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't actually seen that.
• 1:16:50
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, he's gone.
• 1:16:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he's almost like bald, it's basically skin.
• 1:16:53
  SPEAKER_02: Do you mind if I actually look this up right now?
• 1:16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Go for it, go for it.
• 1:16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:16:58
  SPEAKER_02: Oh god.
• 1:17:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well because I didn't see the time at which it changed.
• 1:17:05
  SPEAKER_00: I th I thought that this might be a um a a soft launch or a little no no no no no no no no, I love it too much, mate.
• 1:17:12
  SPEAKER_02: No, I'm sorry.
• 1:17:13
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry to let you down, but I I can't not have the not have the long hair.
• 1:17:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's right.
• 1:17:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I also will evoke a child if I cut my hair.
• 1:17:22
  SPEAKER_02: Please don't scroll back on my Instagram to like 2021 because it's a hard watch, but yeah, let's baby faced.
• 1:17:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Mate, no, you're still still still still young now, you know, 20 23.
• 1:17:33
  SPEAKER_00: And um yeah, many yeah, many years, many years to um yeah, to keep watching you th flourish in the sport.
• 1:17:39
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, thank you for coming on.
• 1:17:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um and yeah, looking forward to seeing what the future holds.
• 1:17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
• 1:17:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, I