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Using Connection to Overcome Addiction with Allan Kehler · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
• 0:08
  things that really matter in our lives.
• 0:11
  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
• 0:35
  Everyone, it's Roxanne Durgeshofer Authentic Living with Roxanne.
• 0:38
  Thanks for tuning in again this week.
• 0:40
  Today, I have a colleague, fellow speaker Alan Callher is Is it Keller or Kelleher?
• 0:47
  It doesn't even matter.
• 0:48
  It's Kaler, but nobody would know that.
• 0:50
  I didn't even get it close to it.
• 0:53
  Alan is, you know, has worked in as a in the mental health field.
• 0:58
  As you know, that with my background, I've been in the mental health field for a while, and
• 1:02
  he's done a lot of, speaking.
• 1:04
  So I wanted to invite him on today to, just chat a little bit about, you know, mental
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  health issues and and substance abuse disorder.
• 1:12
  And, you know, just some of the valuable lessons that he's learned.
• 1:15
  So I'll tell you a little bit of his background.
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  He's had some issues over the years with mental health and substance abuse.
• 1:23
  And he's learned some valuable life lessons, that's kinda took him on a path of incredible,
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  success.
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  He's one of the Canada's most sought after speakers when it comes to the issues of mental
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  health and wellness.
• 1:36
  And he's, spoken of on over 500 stages, and he has a dynamic and activating approach, which I
• 1:43
  can tell already.
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  Having just met, Alan, for the first time today.
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  He left teaching after more than a decade, to focus on speaking or writing, on various topics
• 1:53
  related to mental health.
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  He has best selling books, 4 of them, and and he's been featured in several national
• 2:00
  magazines.
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  He lives in Saskatoon, with his wife, four four boys, and four dogs.
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  So double.
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  And a tank of fish.
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  So you're you've got a very busy household.
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  No doubt, Alan.
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  Yes.
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  Yes.
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  It can be rather chaotic at times, but we embrace the AOS.
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  I think you would have to.
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  Right?
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  Like, I mean, you know, what how old are your children?
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  Our oldest is actually twenty one And then we have 18, 11, and 10.
• 2:32
  My goodness.
• 2:33
  So you got started early with with your family.
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  Well, I actually Roxanne moved in 3 months sober with my wife and her 2 sons about 10
• 2:42
  years ago.
• 2:43
  Okay.
• 2:43
  Okay.
• 2:44
  Yeah.
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  That's a whole another story.
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  That previous life of absolute when when we talk about chaos, yeah, my life was chaos
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  before this.
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  So tell us, I mean, obviously, you know, you are been speaking around the area of mental
• 2:57
  health and, substance abuse, disorder.
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  Tell us a bit about your story and kind of, you know, obviously through something that I, I
• 3:07
  would think would be have been bit of adversity for you came out something that's positive
• 3:11
  where you can go out and share a lot of the wisdom.
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  So tell us a little bit about your path and kind of what got you from there to here to be
• 3:19
  able to teach others some of the things that you've learned.
• 3:22
  I'll give you the condensed version.
• 3:24
  I, I mean, basically, I grew up small town, Saskatchewan, four and a half roads small, and
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  we didn't talk about things like mental illness.
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  You know, I didn't know what addictions were, but I can look back and identify that my
• 3:37
  challenges with mental illness really began in grade 8 with something that was later diagnosed
• 3:42
  as body dysmorphic disorder where I just I avoided mirrors at all costs for for the next
• 3:47
  13 years And I I just I didn't know what to do with my thoughts.
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  You know, I thought I was the only one I didn't wanna share them.
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  I hid behind that proverbial mask very well because on the outside, everybody saw something
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  that was so different than what was going on on the inside.
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  Because on the outside, they could see the person who was present to the school athlete of
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  the year, captain of sports teams.
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  And I think I just continuously hid behind that smile, I hid behind the awards.
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  And as we know, obviously, just because someone's smiling does not mean that they are
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  happy, but what was always a hindrance for me was that I just didn't know how to talk about
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  my pain.
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  And obviously, because I didn't talk about it, I saw heard more than anyone else.
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  And all of a sudden, in comes the psychiatrist, and I started to see, oh my gosh, Roxanne.
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  Like, I've, I've probably seen almost 30 different mental health professionals.
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  And I was hit with so many labels.
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  I hated them.
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  Like, I hated them.
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  I felt I felt like the labels defined who I was, and I think it's because I just had no
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  clue who I was that piece about identity?
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  No idea.
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  So you give me a label.
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  I wore it.
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  And I
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  was like, oh, that's who I am.
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  And then I think it was It was 11 or 12 medications that I was on in a span of 6 years
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  to try to find some stability.
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  And I think that it is logical to want to leave behind a life of pain exchange for pleasure,
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  right?
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  And that's what fueled the gambling addictions, the alcohol, And it was just, it was chaos, you
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  know, and I ran from myself.
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  I I left home as soon as I was sixteen for a private school.
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  Then I'm off to Holland for a year.
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  You talk about letting an animal outside of a cage.
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  Like, I just went nuts, Roxanne.
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  I went nuts.
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  And then I just kept running.
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  And eventually, you realized, oh, hang on.
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  You cannot run from self.
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  No matter how hard you try, and then you reach a point where you realize if you want something
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  different, you obviously have to do something different.
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  And I hit many of those proverbial forks in the road, you know, at one point being told, I had
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  a month to live if I didn't change what I was doing and collapsing outside of a a a classroom
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  where I was teaching.
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  I was teaching special ed.
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  But even then, you know, it's it's it's that nobody really knew the magnitude of my
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  struggles, and that was on me.
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  And then I found out pretty quickly that there's nothing more powerful than our voice.
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  And when we start to use our voice, when we start to share our stories and we start to
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  become vulnerable, therefore gives others permission to do the same.
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  And that was really, I guess, what the catalyst was for the whole speaking venture because all
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  of a sudden when I put a voice to it and you hear those 2 beautiful, powerful words, right?
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  The the me too.
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  And just like that, what?
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  You you can relate to some of this.
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  I'm not alone in these thoughts.
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  And that's a powerful thing.
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  So for me, oh my gosh.
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  I look at where I was from Roxanne and where I am.
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  It could not be.
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  It could not be more different.
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  So you started with body dysmorphia, which for for some of the people listening, Alan, that
• 7:13
  don't know what that is.
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  Try to explain it to them so that they understand kind of, what you were going through
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  and kind of some of the the the thoughts and the perceptions of those thoughts and how it
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  impacted your behavior.
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  It impacted everything because how it started rock in is it was at a great grad where they
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  had, they had all of us stand sideways.
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  And then they took those old projectors and trace over you know, the side profile.
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  Yeah.
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  When I saw that for the first time, it unleashed something where all of a sudden I
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  thought I was this hideous monster.
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  I I hated how I looked.
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  I could never have somebody sit beside me.
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  I couldn't even dribble a basketball, down the basketball court without thinking about of
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  everybody seeing this hideous side.
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  And so it, it influenced everything, not having hair in my armpits.
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  I was pretty fortunate to be gifted at sports, but also I'm not taking shots because, you
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  know, it it's fed into everything.
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  If somebody touched my hair, I couldn't even function socially.
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  I had to go home, and then came diagnoses of of bipolar disorder.
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  Of OCD, schizophrenia.
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  I mean, it just kept coming.
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  So at some point, so you leave home and you're you're carrying this like, you know, that's
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  such a good term when you said you can't run from yourself.
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  So as this as a psychotherapist, I see people trying.
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  And and as human beings, I would say that we're quite we're quite creative in the things that
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  we figure out.
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  Right?
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  Sometimes it's more out there like substances and gambling and stuff, but some people work
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  too much some people shock too much.
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  These are more acceptable, but in your case, yours was kind of out there with more
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  destructive behavior.
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  Was that what was started to happen with you?
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  I did not have the tools to manage my pain, so I looked outside of myself to do I mean, even
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  for me, when we talk about substance use disorder or, you know, addiction, for me, it's
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  very simple.
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  It's trying to live outside of ourselves so that we don't have to be with self.
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  If anybody tried to make me look in look within, I just repelled.
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  Do not make me feel And I and, I mean, you and I both know this.
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  It's it's pain that fuels those behaviors, those disorders.
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  And so I would just lose myself in any activity.
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  And and that's just logical too, isn't it?
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  That if we can't form a connection with our self, we're going to form connections with
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  things outside of ourselves, and usually they're not healthy.
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  And therefore, I was continuously trying to harm or kill myself.
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  So how long did that trajectory go on and what were some of the now that you look back and I'm
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  sure when you're on stage, you're telling your story which must be quite powerful and
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  riveting, were there points in gaps in time that you kind of thought, I gotta do something
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  different here?
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  Or did they kind of close-up quickly and then you moved on again to, you know, to to continue
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  the hiding from yourself?
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  There are many glimpses.
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  It's kind of that process, two steps forward, one step back.
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  There are many pivotal moments where somebody said that one thing that, you know, I planted
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  and stored later, but until I was ready to change, then nothing could happen.
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  There was there was a teacher who was very instrumental in my ability to change.
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  His name was E.
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  McNeil, and, and, the shortened suite of it is that in an auditorium of 300 students, I being
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  a student, he came up to me after one of those lectures, and he just said, come to my office,
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  Al.
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  Let's talk.
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  And I thought, well, okay.
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  I've talked to you a handful of times.
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  What what is this all about?
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  And it was really interesting Roxanne because it forced me to be vulnerable.
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  But vulnerability always leads to reward in some way, shape, or form.
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  And when I got into his office, it was his approach that I just found really intriguing
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  because, you know, every day we say, how are you doing?
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  Which which is just robotic.
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  And he said, how are you doing today, Alan?
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  But it was the compassion that was intriguing.
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  It was his engagement, and I could tell that he was coming from this place of love and he
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  understood that that nobody wants to be fixed.
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  He understood that we all wanna be seen.
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  We all wanna be supported He put the ball in my court.
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  He kinda asked me that $1,000,000 question.
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  Are you happy?
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  I, Ian.
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  No.
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  No.
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  In.
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  I'm not happy.
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  Okay.
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  Well, what are you gonna do about it?
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  And so it was at that point that he then gave me resources, and that was a place where I
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  realized, okay.
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  Okay.
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  I have all these tools at my disposal.
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  Now it comes down to choice.
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  And and he he, the key continuously played that role of checking in, not being too forceful.
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  And I I find Roxanne so many people.
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  It's horrible to see people that you love that you care about struggling.
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  But it really comes back to what can you control and what can you not what do you have
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  to surrender?
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  And and that's what Ian did a beautiful job of, and he just helped me I guess, essentially take
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  my power back and and use my voice.
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  And and, he was just always in my corner cheering me on.
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  So he was able to hold the space and be gentle enough for you to be feel seen and but he
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  didn't direct you in a way that made you feel feel controlled.
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  Is is that I don't I mean, that's a hard space, right, because I know a lot of people that are
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  listening probably thinking if they're dealing with somebody that has, let's say, an
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  addiction, that's a tough place to be sometimes because you see maybe someone saying they want
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  to change, then they go out and, you know, they go on a kind of a bit of a run or something.
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  And then, you know, they start using more and more.
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  So for anybody that's listening, let's say maybe struggling with a family member or
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  something like that.
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  What what kind of words of guidance would you give them to really support someone in the same
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  place, way that Ian did with you?
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  It's this simple.
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  It is this simple where you can simply approach someone and say, I don't mean to cry.
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  I just wanna let you know that I'm concerned.
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  I want to let you know that I'd be more than happy to listen if you ever needed to talk.
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  That is it.
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  It's not about fixing.
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  It's it's about that validation.
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  For me, I think we have those 2 basic needs see me hear me?
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  You put a statement like that out there.
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  You just said, I see you.
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  Now whether or not they act on the invite, then it comes back to, well, is that in your
• 14:11
  controller out of your control?
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  And, obviously, it's completely out of your control, but when they are ready to then talk,
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  I mean, elders always tell us.
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  We have we have 2 ears and one mouth for a reason.
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  The the most powerful gift I believe and you alluded to this earlier Roxanne is create the
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  space.
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  Right?
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  And there's numbers out there, like, I don't know, 7% of the way that we communicate is
• 14:35
  verbal, but it's those 93.
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  It's it's what Ian gave me.
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  You know, he was engaged.
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  He was leaning forward.
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  There was compassion.
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  There was love.
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  And he did not talk.
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  He gave me the ability to just be free from those emotions because emotions are energy.
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  And all that the man did, he did nothing and yet he did, I would say everything because he
• 14:57
  created that space so that I could be free from some of those emotions.
• 15:01
  Yeah.
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  And and that's like the definition of healing for me is pretty simple.
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  The more that you can get the darkness out the more room you're gonna make for light.
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  That's a gift that we can give people.
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  And you know what?
• 15:16
  It's, you know, in my years, as a psychotherapist, I often I would hear people
• 15:21
  saying this would blow my mind.
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  You know, they would say, you know, do you know I've never sat across I've never felt loved,
• 15:27
  and I go, you know, how is that, you know, how is that possible?
• 15:32
  And sometimes people's stories are so, you know, they're really it's hard for them to be
• 15:38
  able to share because they feel so closed off, right?
• 15:41
  Like, I don't feel like I'm valuable enough to be loved because I don't think I've experienced
• 15:45
  love.
• 15:46
  And, you know, sometimes it's saying nothing, like to your point, but that's a tough thing
• 15:52
  from a lot of people to do, right, to real really just kind of sit in that space and to
• 15:56
  see someone like myself, lord help you.
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  That must be, okay.
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  I'm not gonna do that because they're petrified of someone like myself, and I always say to
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  people, I'm just a person.
• 16:07
  I'm just here to kinda hang out with you and see if we can kinda work together, but there's
• 16:12
  that demystifying part of what what gets associated with, any kind of mental health,
• 16:18
  right, because I I also see it's on a spectrum.
• 16:20
  Right?
• 16:20
  Any of us could get pushed over if you don't have, like, a bit of a biological element,
• 16:25
  maybe there is biology.
• 16:26
  But oftentimes, Gaborate talks about, you know, the you know, and I'm sure you know who Gabor
• 16:32
  is, the small percentage of people that actually come into this world related to
• 16:37
  completely just biological diseases, and a lot of it gets developed by, you know, whether we
• 16:44
  call it small t trauma, which is little things all the way up to the gamut of any kind of, you
• 16:49
  know, horrendous atrocity kind of thing.
• 16:53
  So it's it's hard for a lot of people to get help.
• 16:56
  So with with you, like you said, Ian helped you.
• 17:00
  You went through a trajectory of things.
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  At some point, what starts to kinda happen internally that made you think, alright, Alan,
• 17:09
  you gotta do something.
• 17:10
  You gotta do something here.
• 17:11
  Cause I think a lot of people have that thought but they're afraid to make that step.
• 17:19
  Yeah.
• 17:19
  We naturally fear change, don't we?
• 17:22
  And I think that for myself and what I find with a lot of men is it comes down to the fear
• 17:29
  of being vulnerable, the view of being judged, the perception that comes with it.
• 17:34
  I met an elder who I respect, and this was a turning point for me where he says, Al, you are
• 17:41
  not the only person who has experienced mental illness.
• 17:44
  And he said, Al, you're not the only person who struggled with addiction.
• 17:48
  And he said, Al, you are not the only person who's been sexually abused.
• 17:52
  If you want something different, go get it because this world owes you nothing.
• 17:58
  Mhmm.
• 17:59
  And I thought.
• 18:00
  Okay.
• 18:01
  First of all, that's rather direct.
• 18:05
  And I was very pissed off, but as you chew on that, there's a lot of truth.
• 18:12
  And so What had to happen for me is the victim mentality had to be removed.
• 18:18
  It it it did not serve me.
• 18:20
  And and so the the biggest thing Roxanne that I did is I started to surround myself with others
• 18:27
  who spoke my language.
• 18:28
  And when I say that, I mean, I had to get into spaces where other people had similar lived
• 18:35
  experiences.
• 18:36
  That was my saving grace.
• 18:38
  And it was awful.
• 18:40
  It was awful to get myself into that first Gavin's anonymous meeting.
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  You know, I I mean, I I sat in my car and just cried, cried, cried.
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  I was so terrified to open up that door because if I walk into that building, well, then it's
• 18:53
  real.
• 18:54
  And denial is just, and I don't know.
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  It's it's what I knew.
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  I was more comfortable there.
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  I finally got myself in AA.
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  I got myself into men support groups who've been sexually abused.
• 19:07
  Like, the, the fear the terror, the anxiety, talk about overwhelming, but you find out
• 19:16
  pretty quick and we talked about this before that you have to take risks if you want any
• 19:23
  shot at having rewards And all of a sudden, I started to see rewards.
• 19:27
  And, and, you know, I learned very quickly that I had to surround myself with people who lift
• 19:31
  me up, not down.
• 19:32
  I had no clue at boundaries were.
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  Those were stripped for me, you know, through acts of sexual abuse.
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  And and so it was it was very hard to rebuild.
• 19:42
  It was very hard to find value in me as a person, and it and it still is.
• 19:52
  But you you get those glimmers of happiness.
• 19:56
  And by no means, my sitting here saying that, you know, I find life all happy and, joyous.
• 20:03
  Like, it's hard.
• 20:04
  It is flat out hard, right, for me.
• 20:07
  And many people, But the difference is that I have found ways to utilize strategies, surround
• 20:16
  myself of people who really get me, right, and, understand the power hope, like, and and
• 20:23
  resilience.
• 20:23
  It's a buzzword, but really for me, like, I look back and for every one of us, we have
• 20:29
  survived a 100% of our most challenging days.
• 20:32
  Right.
• 20:33
  And I often say, and, you know, something you may not know about me is that Chrome is one of
• 20:38
  my specialties.
• 20:39
  So I've, been involved.
• 20:41
  I live here in Niagara Falls, and I've been involved, for 25 years with the sexual assault
• 20:45
  center here, right out of university, I started to volunteer and then I got involved.
• 20:50
  And, you know, what I found interesting is that a lot of times in addiction centers, and this
• 20:55
  is data that from the center that I was at was 1 out of 6 men that were sexually abusing 1 out
• 21:01
  of 3 women.
• 21:02
  So the reality is there's a lot of people that are have been wounded, unfortunately, in this
• 21:08
  way, and the pain is so high that they're trying to find a way to quiet the pain.
• 21:14
  And you know, unfortunately, if they don't make these some of these connections you're
• 21:17
  suggesting, they live in that pain because you're trying to avoid the pain you know,
• 21:22
  instead of figuring out, like you said, if I tell one person, then that secret doesn't start
• 21:28
  to define me in the same way.
• 21:30
  It takes a step a bit at a time, you know, and after a while, people are like, and I've, you
• 21:35
  know, the thing is that what I found interesting with men is that with survivors men
• 21:41
  open up so much quicker once they're safe.
• 21:43
  Women?
• 21:44
  Not so much.
• 21:45
  It's women are the talkers.
• 21:47
  Right?
• 21:48
  So I've done both groups.
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  But, man, once you get them into safety, I'm like, woah.
• 21:53
  It's like opening this flood gate And, you know, and then they were the depth of
• 21:58
  connection that got created in those rooms was amazing to watch.
• 22:03
  So you know, I I'm so happy when you share that for anybody listening that has been through the
• 22:08
  kind of pain that you're talking about that they recognize you're not defined by your pain,
• 22:14
  but it takes you have to risk to trust somebody to be safe again.
• 22:21
  Yeah.
• 22:21
  Well said.
• 22:22
  Totally agree.
• 22:23
  You know, it's it's, so for people that are listening, you know, because a lot of times,
• 22:30
  the people that listen in, they, you know, they're they may be struggling or they're
• 22:34
  thinking, you know, what should I what's the first step that I should take out?
• 22:39
  Like, what is it that I should do?
• 22:41
  Because that you know what?
• 22:42
  The these negative thoughts outweigh my positives, and I feel shitty most of the time.
• 22:47
  And I don't know what's the first little step that I can take.
• 22:49
  What would you tell someone listening?
• 22:52
  Roxanne, I firmly believe the darkness begs to see the light of day.
• 22:57
  Like, it it begs to see light of day.
• 22:59
  For me in hindsight, my downfall was that I continuously isolated.
• 23:03
  I withdrew.
• 23:03
  I didn't put a voice to my pain.
• 23:05
  So stay 1, they think in some way, shape, or form, the emotions that have been suppressed
• 23:11
  have got to come out in a healthy way.
• 23:13
  And it's not necessarily the talk therapy that a lot of people think of because for me, I
• 23:19
  don't, I still don't trust people.
• 23:22
  And I'm, you know, I'm I'm a work in progress, but I can tell a piece of paper anything.
• 23:28
  And pen and paper became one of my greatest outlets for some culture, for some it's music.
• 23:33
  But I think the first step is you have to get to a place where what I'm doing is not working.
• 23:39
  And for me, I I always said, like, Damn it.
• 23:42
  There there has to be more to life.
• 23:44
  There has to be.
• 23:46
  I just I just didn't quite know how to get there, and it it's not like it all comes at 1.
• 23:50
  But it's, it's like the, whatever that's saying is to, to get to a thousand miles, it starts
• 23:55
  with one step.
• 23:56
  But, truly, you you have to start to do something different.
• 24:01
  Yeah.
• 24:01
  And that's going to require being vulnerable.
• 24:04
  And I find that often we are our greatest barriers.
• 24:09
  That that last book that I wrote on minimal health when I interviewed all of them in, that
• 24:13
  was the theme And what the beautiful thing was, what people thought was going to happen did not
• 24:19
  happen.
• 24:20
  They were actually met with compassion.
• 24:22
  They were met with love, and that's that's what I'm saying.
• 24:24
  We we've gotta get out of this.
• 24:28
  Absolutely.
• 24:28
  And I think, unfortunately, I have a twenty year old son and, I often would say, you know,
• 24:36
  I grew up with sisters and one brother, but that men aren't afforded the opportunities that
• 24:42
  women are to share.
• 24:43
  Right?
• 24:43
  Like, and and then I, and then I have a boy.
• 24:47
  And I would see the difference right when he would have to shift.
• 24:52
  You know, he was a little boy and then he started to play, let's say, use like, he played
• 24:56
  hockey, and I could see how he had to make that shift to toughen up.
• 25:00
  And I would say to him, you know, you can you can be that person when you're playing a sport,
• 25:05
  but you still have to stay connected to who you are.
• 25:08
  And it was interesting to see all the little boys that had to shift into something else.
• 25:13
  And all of a sudden, they start to become teenagers, and then they were kinda, you know,
• 25:17
  being, kind of more insular within the selves.
• 25:20
  And then, you know, if anything, I'm so happy to have you have this conversation because I
• 25:24
  think we have to get the word out there that boys, need to get connected probably even more
• 25:32
  or equally on the same level as girls when they learn about communication and connection
• 25:36
  because we're we're doing a disservice in the men out there that are not learning how to
• 25:41
  communicate early.
• 25:43
  And here's the main thing if we, as men, cannot give ourselves permission to feel, to be
• 25:51
  vulnerable, to perhaps shed a tick tier, to reach out for support, Why the hell would the
• 25:55
  boys?
• 25:56
  Like, boys are training to be men, and it's one thing to talk about it.
• 26:00
  It's another to model it and see it.
• 26:02
  And and I am seeing a lot of men who are at that place of, like, I I can't do this anymore.
• 26:10
  I'm done with the hiding.
• 26:11
  I'm done with the the shame, and so they put a voice to it.
• 26:15
  And, of course, that's where vulnerability breeds vulnerability.
• 26:20
  For sure.
• 26:21
  This has been a a deep interview, for anybody that wants to connect with you or by, you know,
• 26:30
  any of your books or to get you for speaking or training.
• 26:34
  Where would they get a hold of yours?
• 26:35
  And is there anything you want to say as last words before we close off?
• 26:41
  I guess, Roxanne, first of all, I appreciate the opportunity to put a face and voice of some
• 26:46
  of these issues.
• 26:48
  I appreciate your time and anyone who takes the time to listen.
• 26:51
  The, the best way is probably through my website, which is a l
• 26:54
  landkehler.comallankaylor.com.
• 26:59
  There's a contact form.
• 27:02
  And, last words, I think it just comes down to if if you're struggling, like, you're only
• 27:11
  alone when you choose to be alone, and realizing the power of just putting a voice to
• 27:17
  some of your pain and and being free from some of it.
• 27:20
  Life can No.
• 27:23
  That would be hard, but it can also be enjoyable.
• 27:26
  Absolutely.
• 27:26
  It couldn't have been better said.
• 27:29
  So I always say to people, when I when I've treated them over the years, you are not
• 27:35
  defined by your pain.
• 27:37
  Right?
• 27:37
  Yes.
• 27:38
  It will override you.
• 27:39
  But to take that step, like Alan's saying, just take some small step to connect in some way.
• 27:46
  And the first step is always the scariest and avoidance is our biggest enemy.
• 27:51
  So if, you know, with the more that you can try to just step into it and allow somebody to get
• 27:57
  close or have some kind of interaction that shows you that trust is possible, then you open
• 28:03
  up a a universe to possibilities of, things in your life that makes you look forward versus
• 28:09
  looking in the rearview mirror.
• 28:11
  So thanks a lot again, Alan, and for anyone, needing information, on authenticity and
• 28:17
  connection at at home or at with your, leaders and your teams at work, you can reach me at
• 28:23
  Roxanne Derhodge dotcom.
• 28:26
  Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne.
• 28:29
  Creating the space for positive the change.
• 28:33
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit roxanne
• 28:40
  Durhaj.com/blueprint.
• 28:43
  We'll see you next time on authentic living with Roxanne.