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Confessions of a Law Firm CMO: What Really Drives Growth · The Jon and Marc Podcast

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I know everything's about AI and automation, but human touch
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things are human touch things and you need humans.
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You should invest in your community, and your community
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will take care of you if you've invested them.
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That word invest is exactly what it is.
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It's an investment. It's not going to maybe pay off
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right at the moment, but it will long term.
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Welcome everyone to the John and Mark podcast.
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Today we are live in person in Detroit city with the one and
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only Trudy Emma. We're very excited to have you
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here. Trudy is the former CMO of Mike
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Morris Law and the current CMO of George Sink Injury Lawyers.
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That is correct. Thank you for having.
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Me, welcome to the podcast. Very excited to hop in the
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conversation here today. So you've been ACMO for almost
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over a decade or being in the legal marketing space for a very
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long time. Yes, you moved on to a new role
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to start. I'd like to know, like what do
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you wish you could have told yourself when you first got into
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the CMO role? Now, now that you've known,
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learn of the lessons. That is a really good question.
1:15
Geez, I thought you said they were softballs.
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I would say getting, you know, the data in place.
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I wish I would have had that sooner in the last role.
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Mike Moore soft firm is very data-driven.
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John Nachazel leading a lot of that.
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But getting that data in place just gives you so much
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confidence. It's no longer a guessing game
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and you're going by gut. You're actually going by numbers
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and knowing what levers to pull and push, and that really was a
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game changer. So if people that are trying to
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get the data in place that maybe don't have it, John and I are
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big data guys. We really like push this with
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the new clients we work with and that's usually the biggest
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challenge we have. We work with new firms is
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getting that set up. It's sometimes a big challenge
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of getting all the data orchestrated correctly, changes
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some business processes, training some people to do
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things correctly. Where do you recommend firm
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start when they're going through that journey of like, I need to
2:02
track my marketing better, What are the metrics that they should
2:05
care about? Well, the basic like the
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foundation is leads, one leads, sign ups and then cost per sign
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up like you're tracking nothing like start there and then
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obviously build that out. So then you can break that down
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by channel. You can start looking at case
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quality, which different channels are bringing in better
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case quality and you can layer on all the additional stuff, but
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foundational, that's your foundation and then build it out
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from there. Talking about that data, so as a
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marketer, you don't really have control of all those metrics to
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get access. So what was that relationship
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that you worked with the other departments?
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So mainly like the glue between marketing and like the firm's
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intake. True.
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So we were fortunate enough at Mike Morrison firm to have data
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people and it evolved to a data team.
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So there were four members on the data team when I left.
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But having someone that is in that role and that's their job
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to make sure I have the data I need, especially with the
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expense that's going out into marketing, they felt that that
3:00
was definitely role worth having and paying someone for at the
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firm. So I did.
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I had a dedicated marketing data analyst that helped to make sure
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I had all the data I needed to make the decisions and that I
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needed to make so. As a firm that spend a lot of
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money on marketing across a ton of chance you've anywhere you
3:20
can probably place an ad, you guys would probably put Mike's
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face on it pretty. Close.
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What is the balance that you have between making 100% data
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decisions or like trusting your gut and your creative instincts
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on? I think this is going to work
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because we're trying something new.
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Yeah. So one of the things I mean that
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I think is very important as a marketer is to be experimenting.
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So constantly testing and seeing how things work and and yes,
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relying on the data to see was that a good test or not a good
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test and we need to bail on it. But part of coming up with what
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you should be testing is, is trusting your gut and saying,
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OK, I think this is going to be a good test.
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You wouldn't pick something that you didn't think would be good.
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So relying on gut instincts for that.
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Obviously creative is another big area where we one time put
4:02
out. Nobody trucks with us or
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something similar to that message.
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And it was, it was like what, you know, it was a gut thing.
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Like Michael, he pushed for it. We were a little unsure how the
4:14
general public would respond to that.
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But it was a successful campaign.
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Everyone was talking about it. But yeah, I mean in those
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situations, like I said, especially with creative, but
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picking out like what areas you want to test, it's it's relying
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on gut. Our mutual friend Sherry from
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Fair and Farah. So when I went to visit them
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last week, I would got an Uber and immediately I was like, hey,
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ask him about like law firms and getting his opinion.
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He's like, yeah, the only one I really know like for sure is
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Fair and Farah. And he's like, we're going by
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and we start to look at billboards.
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He's like, I like that one. It was like, make it a fair
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fight. He's like, I really like that.
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I mean, another one was like, let Farrah cook.
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He's like, I don't understand that at all.
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But it was interesting to get like, you know, you sometimes,
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like, you have to take chances on different messaging and it
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won't resonate with everyone. Yeah.
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But sometimes you just like go outside, take some risk and they
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work out really well. That is funny because Sharon
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Sherry and I have talked about let Farrah cook because I have
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a, they actually helped us with our billboards in Detroit.
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So we would have lots of talk about billboard and billboard
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lines and we were trying to bring in, there's this what up
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dough line in Detroit. Like if you're a Detroiter, you
5:19
know what up though, It's just how people introduce themselves.
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We were trying to play that in and it never really resulted in
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anything. But she brought up, this is
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something we're doing that's like like along those lines.
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And so that's funny that you bring that up because I actually
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know the story on that one. Speaking of like creative, you
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started your career and early on with my Morse as a traditional
5:40
TV media buyer. And then, you know, over the
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past decade, the marketing space has evolved pretty dramatically.
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We'd love to like know more about like your experience in
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TV, what you've seen work and then kind of how you've adopted
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these different channels to evolve the overall marketing
5:54
strategy. Yeah.
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So I came in from Comcast Spotlight.
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So I was actually Mike Moore's law firms Rep and I was yeah,
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yeah, imagine that. So I had worked at Comcast,
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Comcast selling TV and actually some digital there for about 9
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years and I had had some little ones at home.
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I was going to take a step back. I went in and let John and
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Michael know that I would be leaving and we were going to
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transition the account over to another rock or whatever.
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And I get in my car. I start driving back to the
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office after this meeting and John Nachazel calls me up and
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he's like, Hey, what do you think about coming over and
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working at the firm? He's like, you could work part
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time. What do you think about that?
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I'll find a role for you. I just want you to come over and
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it's like, maybe it's a media buyer, maybe it's something
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else, but we just would love to have you at the firm.
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I was really nervous about fully stepping back from I'd been
6:46
working and successful. And so it was just, it was
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scary. So I was like, you know what,
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this would be a perfect in between.
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So I took the job, worked two days a week for the firm as a
6:56
media buyer. I did that for literally up
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until last January, I was still doing the media buying.
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And then we hired a media buyer. And this is kind of a funny
7:05
story, but I ended up hiring my boss from when I was at Comcast
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Spotlight. So she became our Yeah.
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So she's now the media buyer, but I had once worked for her
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selling media and then now she's the media buyer.
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So anyway, I had done that for years, over a decade at Mike
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Moore saw firm. Funny story, while you're you're
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recouping of the John and Mark podcast, normally John's with
7:26
me, my Co host. Yeah, John used to be my
7:28
customer and then I would go work for him and then he was my
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boss and now we're partners. So we've had like the whole arc.
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OK, well, that's funny. And I always laugh about this
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with Eileen too. Like who would have ever thought
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back then that she would end up working for me?
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And like, who would have ever thought it was, you know, it was
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very sad when I left. So anyway, getting back to the
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TV and where we went from there. So started out with buying the
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TV and doing that for the firm, and then that led into like
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community events and I just was getting into more and more
7:58
conversations. So that's when it LED to OK, Now
8:02
do you want to go into the Director of Marketing and then
8:05
into the CML role? And then obviously as you grow
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into those roles, you're taking on all of the different elements
8:12
of marketing. And when I stepped into that
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director of marketing role, Michael pulled me aside and he's
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like, you need to learn this stuff.
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He goes, it might take you 2 years, but this is what you need
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to learn because we need to be really strong in these areas.
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So so he. Pushed you do, you know, Yes.
8:29
Step your game up, up your skills, round it out a little
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bit. Yeah, so I just dove in.
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Luckily, I had worked with some great partners that were good at
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teaching. I just posted about this on
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LinkedIn recently. But you're talking to him and
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it's just like word soup and you just can't figure out what
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they're actually saying. Explaining to me like I'm 5th
8:46
grade please. Thank you.
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Yeah. But I had some great partners
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that really took the time to teach me the insurance and outs.
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Of course, I, you know, spend a lot of time podcast and reading
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and, and just, you know, webinars, whatever to soak it
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in. But that was kind of the task he
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put at hand for me. And I love that part.
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I mean that that part's so data-driven and not that the
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other side isn't, but it's been a part of the the job that I, I
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really love and have enjoyed getting to learn more and more
9:13
about every day as it continues to evolve.
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The transition to a question I've I've been wanting to ask
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you and I'm I'm very curious. So what's your opinion on, you
9:20
know, you've done a ton of stuff in house, you've worked with
9:22
agencies. What are some stuff do you think
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a firm should keep in house? What do you think agencies
9:27
should do? How should they manage those
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relationships you've dealt with a lot?
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Would love like your input on that.
9:32
Yeah. So I think in house is like they
9:35
need to have a very strong pulse on the brand.
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So that's roles where you know, a designer, of course, if you
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have an in house designer, I think that's a great internal
9:44
role, but also that they can shift with the priorities of the
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firm. So I know at least the world I
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came from, we were shifting priorities constantly and
9:53
needing to move very fast. And I think an agency when
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you're saying, oh, do this, Nope, do this, Nope, do this,
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that doesn't work that well. So in that instance, I really
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like having an internal person that I can take and grow with
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the firm. External is, you know, when
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there's when I need an outside point of view.
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So creative agencies, my internal team can't, they can't
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have that outside point of view, right?
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So that's when it's like, OK, who can bring that in?
10:18
I like that for a creative agency in terms of outsourcing
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that I like it for like think of like technical SEO, like that's
10:26
just a deep knowledge base that you need to have that.
10:29
I just, I don't know that that's necessarily the best one for
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having internally. I mean, some people do and
10:35
that's great, but my opinion is I'm fine hiring that one and
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having a vendor in that role. So that's kind of how I look at
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it. I think obviously if there's not
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enough work for internal employee, it might make sense to
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have a vendor in that role. But I also like with vendors or
10:51
outsourcing when they can bring in insights from other
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industries, like they do have that legal base that they can
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see what's going on there. But maybe, you know, they work
11:01
with Realtors or something like that.
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So they can bring that into our campaigns.
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And then, you know, let us be in the forefront of some of the new
11:08
things, for instance, Google might be rolling out or
11:10
whatever. So that's kind of how I look at
11:13
that. I agree with most of that
11:14
perspective. I I think it's extremely
11:16
important to have a strong internal marketing team that has
11:20
a really, really strong pulse on the firm of the business and can
11:24
get things done correctly and knows how it operates.
11:27
There's just so many moving parts.
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If you don't have that, that leader, that's like controlling
11:31
the quality, controlling the vision of the brand.
11:33
Even with the best agency, sometimes you will lose, you
11:36
know, too many people throwing in the wrong direction.
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Yeah, I completely agree. That's when the inconsistencies
11:41
in the brand happen. I think.
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Also I've noticed with sometimes with agencies the output gets a
11:48
little sterile. It doesn't have like the heart
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and the the feel of what you would want if it were coming
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from an internal person. So.
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I can see that. So agents you do love working
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with that's important is like a creative agency.
12:01
So Mike Morse, you know, I'm go to all the conferences.
12:05
He's very well known for his book as well As for pushing his
12:08
commercials. He's well known for.
12:10
I think he attributes a big part of his growth and success is
12:13
changing his marketing messaging.
12:15
I would love to know the process of going from, you know regular
12:18
like lawyer commercials to like a little bit more bespoke on
12:22
brand unique commercials. Yeah.
12:24
So that really boils down to finding a great creative agency
12:29
that really thinks outside the box and isn't just delivering
12:32
that same old talking head lawyer that we all see.
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So he found before my time, it was about a year before I got
12:38
there or so Learner Advertising, who has worked as the creative
12:43
agency and still to this day is the creative agency for Mike
12:45
Moore Software. He does a great job of just
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thinking outside of the box. He has a great team.
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He himself is a very creative person, but he has a great team
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behind him that helps come up with these outside of the Vox
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ideas that really showcase Michael, like they showcase
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Michael, but as well as like the Firm and what the Firm stands
13:04
for. They've been really great at
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figuring out how to really humanize and make people see the
13:12
firm in a different light than just this scary, expensive
13:17
lawyer, which is what a lot of the traditional generic stuff
13:20
kind of puts out in terms of the feeling.
13:23
And you know what they're saying to the viewers, in my opinion.
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I don't resonate a lot with TV commercials just from my my
13:30
generational thing. I don't watch a lot of TV.
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And I also think there's a big issue with in the legal space
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where they are making a lot of the same commercials.
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And like, do you have any advice for like how to make an
13:40
effective TV like ad for your firm?
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I do. So here's what I would say.
13:45
Try to think of quality over quantity.
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When you are just trying to crank these commercials out and
13:51
you know get a batch out and there's new ones every month or
13:55
whatever it needs to be. I would say you are better off
13:58
taking the time, getting a really great spot that's thought
14:01
out and shooting, you know, once a quarter or something like that
14:05
instead of trying to constantly be cranking out new spots.
14:09
I think it just puts everybody under the gun to try to think of
14:13
new ideas instead of letting like really good ideas come to
14:16
the surface. I like that a lot, pivoting me a
14:19
little bit from traditional TV. One of the things you, the the
14:22
firm that you're very involved with, they've known for is
14:24
community service events. Most people do not consider
14:28
community involvement as marketing, but I do.
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I think it's a core to the success of personally and Drew
14:33
law firms and it's underutilized.
14:36
I would love to know, like some of the initiatives you did, how
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you guys came up with them, the execution at being involved as
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the CMO. Yeah, I'm assuming a lot of that
14:43
fell on your plate. It it really did yeah, yeah.
14:46
Big part of the job that I absolutely love was our
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community events. We started off with doing a
14:51
backpack project backpack campaign.
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We didn't even have a name for it the first year.
14:55
It was just like the backpack event or whatever.
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And then eventually somebody was like, you should probably name
14:59
that. It became project backpack that
15:03
had how long do we do that for? I think we were on our 12th year
15:06
this past year. So 2025 was 12 years of doing
15:09
that program, but grew up from like a 400 backpack event with
15:13
one school in Detroit to 5000 people coming into the Mike
15:17
Moore saw from parking lot with band and a live band and food
15:21
trucks and face painting and and all the things that you can
15:25
imagine to, you know, a big celebration would include.
15:28
So that's how that one came about.
15:30
I think first it was brought to us through ACBS Rep that was
15:33
like, Hey, we have these things, like different community things
15:36
that we do and you can get involved.
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And we did the 1400 backpack and we were like, wow, that was
15:41
really great and we thought it was really impactful.
15:43
And then Michael being who Michael is, he's like, let's go
15:46
big or go home. So we went in and did 23,000
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right after the 400 in the spring.
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We did 23,000 in the fall and it just went upward from there.
15:55
That's insane and amazing at the same time.
15:57
How do you even buy 23,000 backpacks?
16:00
Well, there's a way, yeah. One year we thought we would
16:05
stuff the backpacks and it was like one of the years we did
16:08
33,000 and we thought we would be able to do this.
16:12
We got a team together. We had no idea what we were in
16:14
for. It was, I mean, late nights,
16:16
early mornings, way more days than planned.
16:18
But we got them all stuffed and they got out to the schools.
16:21
So they asked Project Backpack. We also did pet adoption events,
16:24
which we were a big, a big thing.
16:26
So we did a sponsorship with the local NBC station and pet
16:30
adoptions. So it was we would pay the pet
16:33
adoption for whatever pet was featured.
16:35
We started getting so many calls into the firm about those pets,
16:39
people wanting to adopt the pets, they would call us.
16:41
It was actually in partnership with Michigan Humane as well.
16:43
So call instead I. Find Mike Wade and say hi.
16:46
I saw Pitbull. Exactly Julie.
16:48
Is Julie available? Yeah.
16:51
So your intake team would be like what is happening?
16:52
Right. Well, they would come to
16:54
marketing. So I would, I was really, I
16:56
really had a pulse on like how well the public was responding
17:00
to this campaign and knowing Michael is passionate about
17:03
adopting adoption, pet adoption, I said, what do you think about
17:06
doing a pet adoption event? And he's like, do it.
17:09
And so we, you know, got a hold of Michigan Humane.
17:13
They had been with the Detroit Zoo for a long time, but that
17:16
was sounding like it was just kind of shifting in a way that
17:19
they weren't sure where it was going to go.
17:20
We had this massive parking lot. So that's how that.
17:24
So you did it in the parking lot at the office?
17:26
We haven't. It was a massive parking lot, so
17:28
it's easy. We're staying at the hotel right
17:29
across the street, so we drove by.
17:30
It like, oh that's funny. Yeah.
17:31
It's a very big parking lot, lots of faith, very fortunate to
17:34
have that. And it was easy to host events
17:37
there and the building management company was always so
17:40
great about it. So yeah, they would be hosted
17:42
right there. And I loved that because it gave
17:45
people. Going back to your initial
17:47
question about people don't value events that much, I think
17:50
part of that is because they think that there's going to be a
17:52
case that comes out of it. And we did learn to like, yes,
17:55
have a booth or whatever that's like with a have a case sign.
17:59
And people could come up if they did have a case and we would
18:02
have sometimes get cases. But that was not what it was
18:04
about. And never would we ever expect a
18:07
case to come out of it. It was more about becoming known
18:12
to that the people that come to the event.
18:14
So now they know our name and we've given them a backpack or
18:18
they've adopted this pet that we've helped facilitate the
18:22
place where they got it from. So that leaves an impression on
18:25
the person. And so when or if they are in an
18:29
accident or their loved 1 is in an accident, they think of us
18:33
and maybe they don't think of us even right away.
18:34
But when they go to search for us and we're one of the three in
18:38
the map pack or at the in the LS as or what we're the ones then
18:41
being picked because there's that we planted that seed early
18:45
on. How do you hear about us?
18:47
This is a horrible question to ask.
18:49
Exactly. It's a milestone in their
18:52
journey and that's what we're trying to do with events and
18:54
also just be part of the community.
18:56
I think it's a good local. There's, as you know, lots of
19:00
national players constantly coming in and and being part of
19:03
the fabric of your community is really important to kind of
19:06
combat that in a way, but also just being a good community
19:11
partner in general. I see some some marketers at law
19:14
firms and some law firm owners where they look at these
19:17
community events and he's like, how many cases am I get out of
19:19
this? Like you're looking at it
19:20
completely the wrong way. It's not like should I do this
19:23
to get more cases? It's like you have to do it and
19:25
like you need to invest in your community.
19:27
You need to be a part of it to be successful.
19:28
You can't expect just to, I'll just throw an event.
19:31
I may go get a case. I'll get some goodwill and some
19:33
TV coverage. Like, you should invest in your
19:35
community, and your community will take care of you if you've
19:37
invest in them. That word invest is exactly what
19:40
it is. It's an investment investment.
19:41
It's not going to maybe pay off right on the moment and not even
19:45
maybe it's not going to, but it will long term.
19:48
And that's how you have to think about just like you think about
19:50
your branding spent. It's like that.
19:52
We did a podcast and with Cassie Lewis, she's a CMO.
19:54
I love her. She's crazy.
19:56
Right. Yes, but she invests heavily in
19:58
community events and they've put a ton of money and time and
20:01
effort into really digging into their community.
20:04
They've put deep roots in there, secured them against national
20:07
players coming in. But they have a huge amount of
20:11
referrals, over 50% of the case, they call it Friends of the Firm
20:14
that come in every month. And they're like ARC, it was a
20:17
long term play. It didn't pay off overnight.
20:19
Over years and years of putting in the effort, they are
20:22
receiving the fruits of their labor.
20:24
I will say the exact same thing. I've seen the same thing happen
20:27
and we'd call them the same thing.
20:28
Friends of the firm, So past client, current client, because
20:32
it is marketing to them obviously too or reaching them.
20:34
I, I should say more of but, but yeah, friends of the firm,
20:37
people who just are raving fans of Microsoft firm because what
20:40
we do with the, the animals or what we do with helping kids and
20:44
families that are underprivileged.
20:46
It's a thing, and it really does work.
20:48
Quick question for you, I don't have to get into details.
20:50
Was the community service events, did that come out of the
20:53
marketing budget or is that a separate budget?
20:55
Marketing budget. Now we did say have the Mike
20:58
Morris Foundation. So there were instances where
21:01
the budget would be, you know, coming out of there.
21:04
But a lot of times there's marketing, yeah.
21:07
One of the things I want to talk to you about is I've gotten
21:10
really big on shifting my mindset from a marketing
21:13
approach. Traditionally, I would say
21:15
personal injury lawyers have been extremely heavy on direct
21:18
response marketing. I'm going to work forever and I
21:20
still still think it works today.
21:22
I personally believe it's working less effectively today
21:24
than it used to maybe five years ago.
21:26
And I'm really big on branding or before I wasn't big on
21:29
branding. Now I'm like, it's the future.
21:31
What is your opinion on building a personal brand versus direct
21:34
response marketing and how to properly maybe blend that
21:37
together as an overall marketing strategy?
21:39
It starts with like where is your firm at?
21:42
If you're a newer firm and you need cases and you need like for
21:47
financial reasons, you need cases now.
21:49
Keep the lights on there's, you know.
21:50
Exactly. Then you're putting a lot into
21:53
what I would call. You're calling director
21:55
response, I call performance marketing, but it's that PPC,
21:58
it's the lead Gen. It's they've been injured.
22:01
They need a lawyer now and you're at that bottom of the
22:04
funnel. A large percent of the budget
22:06
would go towards that type of marketing.
22:09
When you're new or you know, getting established and have
22:12
these financial reasons that it makes sense.
22:14
As you grow, your budget grows too.
22:16
So as more revenues coming into the firm, your budget then can
22:20
evolve into being a full funnel. So now you have top of funnel
22:24
and you have bottom of funnel and you have mid funnel.
22:26
So that's when you start taking and putting more into brand.
22:32
As that budget grows, as the firm grows, that's going to
22:35
allow you to scale and it's going to make all that bottom up
22:37
funnel marketing that you're doing work so much better.
22:39
So a mature firm, I would say, you know, 60% at least could go
22:44
into branding. And the more you can put into
22:47
branding, I think the more that it's going to just benefit you
22:50
all around. So, so that's kind of my take on
22:52
that. And then to talk about what you
22:54
said about I think branding is really the play right now and
22:57
you believe so strongly in it. Yes, like with AI that those
23:01
brands that are omnipresent, that's what's really being
23:04
pulled in with the LLMS into the LLMS is they need to have all
23:08
these touch points online in order to do well and show up in
23:12
those searches. So I think that's another reason
23:14
why branding is so important at the top and then doing that top
23:19
of funnel and then having obviously the bottom of funnel
23:21
to make sure you're catching the people and they actually go to
23:23
search your name. I'm on a journey going into 2026
23:26
to educate lawyers on like what branding is and like the new
23:30
level of effort it takes to be successful in the marketplace.
23:33
Filming a commercial that you call like your brand TV
23:36
commercial is like does is not not enough.
23:38
Filming 1 brand video that you have on your websites, it's like
23:41
3 or 5 minutes long is not creating a brand.
23:44
It is a holistic strategy that you are making the firm known to
23:48
the real world and as many unique touch points as possible.
23:52
And it's going to require managing partners and the
23:54
lawyers of the firm to be heavily involved in the branding
23:56
exercise, which is going to take a ton of time away from their
23:59
actual lawyering to do that. That's true.
24:01
They're turning into legal influencers is what they're
24:03
going to have. To be, I think the legal world
24:05
needs that. I mean, we even my designer and
24:07
I, when I was at Mike Moore's offering, we would talk about, I
24:10
think you need to do like a master class.
24:12
The designer's name is Amber. Amber.
24:14
I think you need to do a master class just in branding like
24:16
consistency in your branding from even like the fonts you use
24:20
to the obviously the colors, how you use your logo in the space.
24:25
Just think like you could niche it down clear to that level.
24:28
And I think it would be so beneficial to a lot of law firms
24:32
out there. Well, I think you should do
24:33
that. Me.
24:35
Too I nothing drives me more insane than and having two
24:38
different fonts on something. I'm like guys.
24:40
Yes, completely agree. Sometimes when you're doing like
24:43
marketing and you're make trying to make an impression on
24:45
someone, there's all these little fine touches that it's
24:48
the last 10% of details. You have to put a ton of effort
24:51
to always get correct that people just skip because they're
24:54
moving fast, but makes like more of a difference than you would
24:56
think it would. Absolutely.
24:58
And it's funny, I, I would get told a lot like, oh, you pay so
25:01
much attention to all these details and it's like.
25:04
That's a good job. That's what makes the brand, you
25:09
know, really look polished and refined and like, you know, like
25:12
we're a solid brand that you can have confidence in is having,
25:15
you know, that look for details. So it is kind of funny in that
25:18
way. Some conversations I've been
25:19
having with John is a bunch of things we were discussing right
25:22
now going to next year is like, how do we as marketers, you
25:27
know, for the John Mark podcast for our own clients, start
25:30
scaling unscalable marketing efforts or interactions with
25:33
people. How do you make personal touches
25:35
at like that take a lot of of effort, happen more often?
25:40
Writing a handwritten letter? Extremely difficult for people
25:43
to do at scale. Sending a personalized gift?
25:46
Extremely hard to do at scale and doesn't make financial sense
25:50
sometimes but has a huge impact. Huge impact.
25:53
And you are so right. And to be focusing on something
25:55
like that and figuring it out because in this world where it's
25:58
going with AII think consumers are going to start filtering out
26:03
anything that's not personal, like personalized.
26:07
So I. Personalized isn't like putting
26:09
truding in the front. Filling in in an e-mail.
26:12
No. With an auto filler.
26:14
No, no, exactly. No, I, I just think they're
26:16
gonna, anything that feels generic is just gonna start
26:18
getting filtered out. So touches like that are but
26:21
gonna become even more important.
26:23
The 1st place my brain goes is like, you need to build a team.
26:26
Like you need a team to do stuff like that.
26:27
You're right, you can't just have a that automated
26:31
necessarily if especially a handwritten note.
26:33
So you need a team so you have the space to do that or they
26:36
have the space to do that. But that's how I would scale
26:39
something like that, which seems the old fashioned way at this
26:41
point. I know everything is about AI
26:43
and automation, but human touch things are human touch things
26:46
and you need humans to do them. You've been in this space a long
26:51
time. You're a seasoned vet.
26:52
That Mike Moore's firm is some of the most well known firms in
26:55
the entire nation. You know he has fireproof people
26:59
Listen to him speak. He talks about his success.
27:01
You were part of that success as they've grown.
27:03
Would love your opinion on you know what you learn now where
27:06
you kind of see the future going as the industry's changing.
27:09
I think everything's going to start happening faster.
27:14
So everything will be like think like even like Google alerts and
27:18
having real time data and utilizing that type of data.
27:22
I think everything's going to be more elevated just in general
27:26
with content. I guess ultimately where I think
27:28
things are going is I think if you're not on the forefront of
27:32
of that stuff while also bringing in what you're talking
27:36
about with those human touch elements.
27:38
I think that's where marketers are going to have to figure out
27:41
is how can we be on the forefront of of all these
27:44
automations and elevating our content in our marketing, but
27:48
also bring in those human touches so they can, you know,
27:51
continue to have a connection with their with the consumers.
27:55
It's a terrible answer, but that's my I.
27:57
Thought it was a great answer I was listening to hanging on
27:59
every word. Awesome.
28:04
This was an absolutely incredible episode filled with
28:07
Nuggets that I think anyone listening is at home taking
28:09
notes. I thoroughly enjoy the
28:11
conversation. I would love to do this again
28:13
with you in a year from now to see how accurate we are with our
28:16
predictions and our analysis on the industry, but I cannot thank
28:20
you enough for taking time out of your day to meet with us here
28:22
in Detroit. You have a busy morning, you are
28:25
a busy woman and I appreciate it very much.
28:27
Well, I truly enjoyed it too. I will be back in a year if you
28:30
want me back in a year. This was great.
28:31
I had a lot of fun. Thank you so much for having me.