Latest / State Of Mind Mental Health Podcast / #117 - "How Does That Make You Feel?" Isn't Therapy with Dr. Greg Obert, PsyD on Getting Real Results

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#117 - "How Does That Make You Feel?" Isn't Therapy with Dr. Greg Obert, PsyD on Getting Real Results · State Of Mind Mental Health Podcast

0:00
First off, you gotta make sure that you're actually getting effective therapy.
0:04
Because I can't tell you the number of times, and maybe you yourself or some of your listeners have experienced this, where they go to therapy and it's just a poor imitation
0:14
of what therapy is supposed to be.
0:16
I can't tell you the number of times I see online people saying, that I went to therapy and all I did was talk about my week and the therapist just kind of sat there and nodded
0:28
and said, yep, and how does that make you feel, right?
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So...
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And then they're kind of expected to just keep going back forever.
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And that's what therapy is, quote unquote.
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And it's not that is absolutely not what therapy is that as someone practicing, I don't know, just taking your money and asking you the same question, you know, every 10 minutes
0:50
in the session.
0:51
Hello, everybody.
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Welcome to the State of Mind Podcast: Tools, Stories, and Truth on Being Human.
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My name is Mike Stroh, and this is a podcast for living with courage, clarity, and compassion.
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On today's episode, I am speaking with Dr.
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Greg Obert.
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Hello, Greg.
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Thank you so much for being here.
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Can you please introduce yourself?
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Tell us a little bit.
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about your work and what brings you to this point in your life.
1:18
Yeah, well, thanks so much for having me.
1:20
It's a pleasure to be here.
1:21
So yeah, I'm a clinical psychologist by trade.
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I've only been a psychologist for about three or four years, but I was a master's level clinician long before that.
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So I've been working in mental health for over 15 years now.
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Basically, what I do is help people who have all sorts of different mental health concerns, though my specialties end up being mood, so depression, anxiety, executive
1:45
stress.
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for those in those high stress positions where they really need to be able to make decisions quickly or just even deal with the pressures of the positions that they're in.
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Trauma, PTSD work, the real trauma work, not just kind of the buzzword that gets thrown around on social media where everything is trauma.
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And then veterans issues as well.
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So I have my own practice, Royal Oasis Psychotherapy Institute, which is a virtual practice.
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and I'm able to see people in almost all of the United States, which is really great to see sort of some of those laws around telehealth catching up.
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I also host my own meditations by Gregory T.
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Obert podcast, where I have guests on and where I put out guided meditations for free for people to heal and work through whatever they're going through.
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And as far as how I got to this point,
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I mean, I don't know how much time we got, but I could talk for a while about it.
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But I guess sort of the high points are, you know, I ended up taking a psychology course in high school, which at least anecdotally seems to be a little strange.
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I don't know many high schools that have that.
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And after I did that, I knew this was exactly the thing that I wanted to do.
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I was pretty fortunate in that I knew what I wanted to do early on.
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I ultimately got through undergrad and got my master's at DePaul University in Chicago, but I didn't really have the opportunity to get the job that I wanted.
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So I tried to get the job that I wanted for a few years, couldn't get it, and I finally decided, screw it, I'm going to go back and upgrade my credentials.
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So I did.
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And then I got my doctorate in 2023, and here I am.
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So mental health is something I love to do, and I love talking about it.
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So again, thanks for having me on.
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I'm looking forward to chatting with you.
3:38
I saw on your website somewhere, therapy isn't enough can you tell us a bit more about that?
3:45
So sometimes people think that therapy is all I need.
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And that comes sort of with a caveat.
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First off, you gotta make sure that you're actually getting effective therapy.
3:56
Because I can't tell you the number of times, and maybe you yourself or some of your listeners have experienced this, where they go to therapy and it's just a poor imitation
4:06
of what therapy is supposed to be.
4:08
I can't tell you the number of times I see online people saying, that I went to therapy and all I did was talk about my week and the therapist just kind of sat there and nodded
4:20
and said, yep, and how does that make you feel, right?
4:23
So...
4:24
And then they're kind of expected to just keep going back forever.
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And that's what therapy is, quote unquote.
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And it's not that is absolutely not what therapy is that as someone practicing, I don't know, just taking your money and asking you the same question, you know, every 10 minutes
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in the session.
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Therapy is about actually digging into the mental issues that we all carry.
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could be things that we're unaware of, such as in the subconscious, it could be
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Thought patterns that we just don't even realize are so automatic and habitual that they kind of keep us stuck.
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Sometimes it is a space where we need to work through heavy emotions like grief or anger, whatever the case may be.
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So if you have someone that's actually doing therapy properly, following some sort of theory that's backed by evidence, has goals that you're working on, and ultimately is time
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limited,
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Yeah, some people may need to be in therapy for 20 years, but some people, most people don't need that.
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Once you have that, sometimes that's just not enough in and of itself.
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And the reason I say that is because I'm a big uh fan of Dr.
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Marsha Linehan.
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For those that don't know, she made dialectical behavior therapy or DBT.
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And my dad joke is it's not just a sequel to CBT, but it is its own thing.
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uh Thanks, I try to hone the dad jokes where I can.
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But they sure are.
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But one thing that she talks a lot about in in her theory is that you need to make sure that whatever skills you're developing, whether that's reflection, whether that's
6:12
Practical everyday real-world skills related to nervous system regulation emotion regulation communication, whatever it is You actually have to take that and run with it
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Because if somebody practices with me Once a week for an hour a week.
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They're gonna be a master while they're sitting on the computer with me and Practicing those skills and then as soon as they log off the call
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and they don't practice anything, then they're not going to be able to use those skills effectively.
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And so one thing that I encourage people to do is to practice where they can.
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And I kind of want to, and I don't know how successful I am at this point, but I hope to be more successful in the future.
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I want to sort of tweak the general idea of what therapy is supposed to be, that it's just one hour a week.
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And so with my practice, I'm trying to include other avenues for people to practice, or at least gain some sort of knowledge base that they wouldn't necessarily just in the therapy
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room.
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So as an example, I have a store on my site where people can buy premium guided meditations or eight hour affirmations that they could kind of put on.
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as they go to sleep, which is supposed to help kind of ease some of those thoughts in the subconscious.
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I have a YouTube page that I really only been actively posting on the last three, four months now, but I'm trying to put out practical mental health advice and tie it into real
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world issues.
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for example, and
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If you were to have told me a year ago that I'd be making a video on this, I'd have called you a liar.
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But I put out a video about how Justin Bieber and Miley Cyrus doing their latest projects, the Coachella thing and then the Hannah Montana reunion respectively, shows a lot of
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personal growth on their part.
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Or talking about how people in, again, C-suite areas, they...
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they don't even realize how stressed or burned out they might be.
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And that's gonna negatively impact not only their professional lives, but also their personal lives.
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So I think of it as therapy plus, which seems like a dirty phrase these days because every streaming service is something plus.
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And I don't mean it to be that.
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I think therapy doesn't stop in the room.
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We actually have to take the skills and run with it.
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And so I hope that I'm providing, I strive to provide those skills and those areas for people to practice those skills so they can be more effective in their daily lives.
8:58
Yeah, thank you.
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And maybe it looks like you, I think I saw like you have, are you familiar with the term feedback informed treatment?
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I'm not, tell me about it.
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Okay.
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Or measurement based care.
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seems to be a bit.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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That's a bit more of a, it's my bias projection.
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That is the medical system trying to own a psychotherapeutic tool that's been around for decades, which is a feedback informed treatment.
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So it's the, what we know about good outcomes in therapy is yes, of course you need a good relationship with the therapist and
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there needs to be some form of evaluation of is this actually helping and why is it helping and is this therapist right for me?
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So similar to you, I had so many people come in and say, I just talked for an hour, the therapist nodded and said, how does that make you feel over and over?
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And it drove me insane.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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bad for people that go through that because that is either a lazy or an inexperienced or maybe both therapist that just is not doing the work.
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Yeah, it's a whole other conversation in and of itself, sort of what is, but having some form of valuation matters a lot.
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And to me that sort of fits into this idea of therapy is not enough.
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This traditional just sit and talk.
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I mean, sometimes some people just need someone to go and talk to and they're happy with that, et cetera.
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But on the whole, it's certainly there's more to it.
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And I like how you said,
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outside the therapy room, I'll use one analogy.
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A lot of people I work with, myself included, was from this world of addiction recovery.
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Therapy is not enough.
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You need to be doing multiple other things if you want to change your life.
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And how do you...
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So when people aren't addicts or people in addiction recovery, because there are so many resources out there for people like that, like there's 12 step groups, there's smart
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recovery, there's refuge recovery, there's other forms of that available to people.
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But when it comes to depression or anxiety or other sort of life sufferings, it is hard for them to work on things outside on their own, right?
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communities of practice and that kind of idea.
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How do you think about that?
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How do you, I think I heard you saying you're trying to address that in some ways through your offerings, but how do you think about that?
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That was a lot.
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And how do you see perhaps our culture providing more opportunities like.
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Well, I think it's unfortunate because the culture at large doesn't really provide those opportunities as much as I'd like.
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know, every once in a while I'll see as I'm on social media a picture from like a nightclub, you know, from like the 50s.
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And not like the, you know, loud music, everyone get drunk, you know, convulse on the dance floor, but like people dressing up, going out, you know, there's maybe a nice band
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on stage, nice dinner.
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even things like men's clubs, right?
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Or I suspect women have had their own clubs as well.
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You know, you don't see as much of that these days.
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I think partly because we're more connected than ever online, which is great.
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Like you and I are able to talk because of that.
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I doubt we would have been able to otherwise, yet that also can be a bit isolating in and of itself.
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I know I certainly have worked in...
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substance use recovery in the past and community is so important.
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And I guess the way that I think about community is how does the community ultimately make you feel and how does it support whatever your treatment goals are?
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Or even if it's not, you're not an active treatment, your lifestyle goals.
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And that's why I always promote, you know, mindfulness as the baseline for this, which
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paying attention on purpose to the present moment non-judgmentally.
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I just saved all of you thousands of dollars on mindfulness seminars.
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There you go.
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And by non-judgmentally, I mean focusing on the facts of the situation as they are, not as I want them to be.
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And so I think the best, you mentioned 12 step, I think the best way of sort of translating mindfulness to that is step one, which for those that are unfamiliar is
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recognizing there's a problem.
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I know it's admitting I'm powerless or I forget the exact verbiage.
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admit it.
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I was powerless over alcohol and that my life had become unmanageable.
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There you go.
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Yeah.
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I just reframe it, which is you gotta recognize there's a problem.
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Now, of course, there's 11 steps after that.
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You don't just stop at one, but you can't do any of those steps until you recognize the issue.
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And so if I'm trying to figure out a community to go to that's gonna support me, I actually have to recognize whether or not I feel supported by this community.
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I think a lot of people...
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that I've worked with in particular feel a lot of pressure to go to 12-step because that's, excuse me, that's kind of the thing that you do if you're in recovery, which for
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the people that really like AA, NA, it's great and I highly encourage them to go.
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For some people, they don't particularly like it.
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Maybe it's just the group that's, the makeup of the group, you know, they...
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They feel like they're being preached at, know, maybe they don't really gravitate towards the higher power thing.
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That's fine.
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But then don't keep going to that thing.
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You know, maybe it's a matter of looking elsewhere.
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There's no shortage of support groups now, I think, due to the internet.
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There are virtual options.
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I wish there were more in-person options.
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But people can go and talk with anyone these days.
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especially for veterans.
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know there's veteran centers here in the US.
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I'm not sure about Canada, but I suspect that you guys have veteran groups there as well that can help out.
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But I guess uh to sort of uh make a short story long, I think about does this serve me in some way and how am I feeling as I leave or as I'm with these people?
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because if it's just not working for me, then maybe it's time to find another place to go.
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I want to ask you about that specifically because that comes up a lot and there's a
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I don't know what the word is in nuance, perhaps.
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A lot of times when people are unwell, seeking support in the community, et cetera, so much of their automatic unhelpful thinking is nobody understands me, I'm being judged, I
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don't get this, this isn't for me.
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Sort of all the defense mechanisms that come up and so sometimes,
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in my experience is a lot of our resistance to these groups or the conclusions we make about them not being helpful come from that insecurity or that judgment that this isn't
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for us.
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And sometimes that is true, of course, and other times it's, it's the problem, right?
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That perception is the problem.
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So I'm curious, when do you agree with that into
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Yeah, what do you sort of think about that?
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I do, I certainly agree with that.
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And it shows up a lot in substance use recovery work that I do, trauma recovery work that I do, I mean, even mood stuff.
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People just, they can be resistant to change because change is scary.
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I mean, it's one of the hardest things to do.
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And people think, well,
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All you got to do is just stop doing the thing.
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if you guys want, if you guys want a fun little clip to watch, I highly recommend stop it with Bob Newhart on mad TV, go check it out.
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It's going to be like five, six minutes of your life that you'll appreciate.
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Yes, yes.
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But if you could just stop it, you'd have done it by now.
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And if it was as easy as flipping a light switch, I wouldn't have clients, I wouldn't have a job, you know, people would be
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living better lives.
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And I'd be fine with that because I could find something else to do, but that's just not how it works.
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And so when you have that resistance pop up, especially if it threatens something that has been viewed as a way of coping, there's just going to be people who find ways to, for lack
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of better words,
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phrase, you know, just kind of make excuses.
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So as an example, you know, one thing that I often find in my work with substance use and trauma, they usually go hand in hand, is that it's really overwhelming to process the
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worst thing that's ever happened to somebody.
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Something that they never thought they would ever experience.
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And the way that I define trauma,
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you know, sort of your lowercase T traumas, you're looking at events where you have a severe stress reaction to, so completely overwhelmed, you don't really know how to process
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it.
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But then, of course, the capital T trauma includes sudden unexpected violence of some sort.
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So, I mean, just living your life and you're thrown into one of those types of events,
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Who wants to think about that?
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Who wants to feel the emotions related to it?
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Who wants to deal with recurring nightmares?
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Sometimes flashbacks, whatever the case may be.
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So the best thing to do is to numb out.
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And one of the easiest ways to do that is go grab a bottle.
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Go grab whatever substance you're used to using.
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And it really does help.
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It is a great short-term solution.
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It is a terrible long-term solution.
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So it's like...
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I don't want to let go of that crutch that does help me get through the day.
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Now, I might not be getting through the day very successfully.
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I might not be getting through the day effectively, but I am getting through.
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And if you're telling me that I have to not only stop using the crutch, but then actually face the thing that I've been running from for sometimes decades.
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I'm gonna find any kind of excuse to not do that and to continue to avoid.
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And it doesn't just have to be trauma.
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I'm sure those out there that may have struggled with substances in the past, it could just be thinking I'm inadequate, I'm no good, I've been told I'm no good my whole life, so
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why bother to try and get out of that thought pattern or that identity?
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It can be tough, yet...
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It can be done and it's going to lead to a better life than just continuing to use, which is really not going to serve you in the long term.
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Yeah, and then, so when you, I guess, how do you contrast that from, and maybe you already did, this group isn't for me.
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I just, struggle with this sort of.
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I totally can relate to and understand and honor.
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Yeah, that higher power stuff's not for me.
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This bunch of weird people in this room, et cetera, versus can, and some groups really are not, that's why it's, you know, recommended to visit a bunch of different ones.
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So you kind of find, or you give yourself a better chance to find your people, so to speak.
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Yeah, I think I lack the memory of myself perhaps, but how we can...
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I don't know, just nudge that sort of this isn't for me thing out of people, or not out of people, but help them relate to it in a way that makes their decision more clear.
20:45
maybe in situations where you've had people say, yeah, that's not for me, how do they, or how do you encourage them then to pursue outside help, like outside of the therapy room
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help?
21:00
Yeah, it's a good question and there's a whole flavor of therapy devoted to it.
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It's called motivational interviewing and uh
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The fact of the matter is this, which is sometimes a tough pill for me to swallow in my line of work.
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I can't make anybody change.
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I can't force people to do it.
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I mean, if you have a way where you can, you know, mind control them and make them do something, I'll pay you for a seminar.
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I'd be happy to learn.
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Make my life a whole lot easier.
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But absent that, I can't make anybody change.
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And so...
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One of the things that in my training I've been taught to do is rolling with the resistance.
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Maybe right now that's not the thing for people and that's okay.
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What can we do that's going to help you get to the space that you want to get to?
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so as an example, when I was at DePaul,
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part of my group therapy class was to actually go to a group and at the time I had never been to a 12-step meeting so I went and I Wasn't struggling with substances at the time
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talked with a few of the people Afterwards and this guy was just Convinced even though I disclosed.
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Yeah, I'm just kind of checking this place out Go to DePaul.
22:16
Just kind of see what you know what you guys do here.
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He was convinced.
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I was lying to myself He was convinced
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And he was like, you know, we need to be honest with ourselves and we need to actually talk about this stuff.
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And I'm like, if I was actually someone on the fence about a group like this, and this guy came up to me, I would absolutely not want to go back.
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And so I think, I think your advice is spot on that.
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Well, you know, we have to kind of try different, different groups to make sure we find the right one.
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It's also true though, that any little change.
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is something to be celebrated.
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I know I've worked with people who are like, yeah man, but I'm only like two weeks sober and I don't have, know, like the 20 years like that one guy has at, you know, my AA
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meeting.
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I'm like, who cares?
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You can't get to 20 years until you get to two weeks, right?
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I mean, that's something to be celebrated.
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Even if you're not going to AA, are you?
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maybe reducing how much you're drinking by, say, two beers a day.
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That's something that can be celebrated.
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A community is something that I think can be helpful for people.
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It's not the only thing that people need to recover, though.
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So while I think that finding the right, for lack of a better word, family people, right, of sorts, to help you through that recovery process,
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is probably going to make somebody more successful.
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If it doesn't work for them, that's okay.
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Do the thing that's going to work for you so that you can accomplish your recovery goal.
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For some people that might be, I never want to use again.
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Great, we can work on that.
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For some people it's, I just use too much and I want to moderate.
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Great, not everyone needs to be sober for the rest of their lives and that's fine.
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So.
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I guess, hopefully this ties back into your question a bit, but finding those people that support you in any of those goals as opposed to the guy that, again, very innocently, I'm
24:29
sure, but we need to be honest with ourselves and you need to admit to us what's going on.
24:34
It's such a good uh meme of what does happen in those groups, right?
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One thing my sponsor said to me that was really helpful in the beginning was just remember you're in a room full of sick people, like including yourself, right?
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Like yourself included, you know, and so.
24:53
that type of behavior happens a lot.
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And it is just like anywhere, guess, no one's perfect and there are more helpful people in lots of areas.
25:03
And, and for sure that is a, an unhelpful part of a lot of these 12 step groups that just the real like thumpers and the ones who just are projecting so much of their do it my way
25:16
and you're wrong and I'm right.
25:17
And if you just listen to me,
25:19
well, so outside of that stuff, I'm curious, actually one thing I want to ask you to, the dbt stuff, didn't that originate as like Zen therapy or something like that?
25:29
Like it basically is, manualized mindfulness.
25:32
Is it not like I'm not too deep into dbt yet, but I'm relatively familiar.
25:37
Yeah, no, I think that's a really great way to say, and by the way, manualized mindfulness is a great band name.
25:45
um but no, she was heavily influenced by a lot of Eastern philosophy and mindfulness is at the core of everything there.
25:58
Again, very similar to 12 step.
26:00
can't change our emotional reactions.
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We can't change our communication patterns.
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We can't work through those high stress emotions, not just the everyday stuff, but the high stress ones, if we're not aware that things are happening in the first place.
26:17
And so, yes, I find that mindfulness is, it's so basic and it's so simple, yet it's one of the hardest things to do in our daily lives.
26:27
At least,
26:29
I find it to be challenging depending on the day and maybe you do as well.
26:33
I do.
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have a lot of training in, I started with MBSR.
26:37
MBSR is actually covered mindfulness based stress reduction is covered by the, our healthcare system, which is incredible.
26:44
Yeah, it's amazing.
26:46
so I did that.
26:47
did a mindful self-compassion three times.
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Like I've done a lot of that.
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some other programs, I wanted to ask you, so
26:56
you have a nice way of integrating a bunch of these different approaches and just sort of.
27:03
Yeah, skills, therapy slash philosophy skills into helping people.
27:09
Can you kind of walk us through some of the main things that you try to help people practice learn skill, like just how you help people.
27:18
Yeah, so I am sort of a mutt when it comes to the theoretical orientations that I have.
27:25
My very first hardcore training experience was client centered therapy.
27:31
anyone out there familiar with Carl Rogers, they sometimes call it person centered therapy now.
27:36
uh I had a
27:39
extensive training with CBT as well cognitive behavioral therapy.
27:44
And then it's only been in more recent years that I've had more training with DBT.
27:49
But I find that something that you said earlier that is spot on.
27:55
The relationship is the most important thing.
27:58
It doesn't really matter what flavor of therapy someone is doing, because if the relationship isn't there,
28:05
and it isn't perceived as supportive and healing, then anything that comes after is meaningless.
28:14
And so I think because of my client-centered approach, that has helped me form relationships with clients much faster.
28:23
And it helps me...
28:25
helps me to help them put their guard down.
28:28
Because a lot of times, exactly what you said earlier too, people feel judged, people feel like, you know, if they open up, they might get hurt in some way.
28:39
That's not what a good therapist is supposed to do.
28:42
A good therapist is to help people say, look, bring all of the pieces of yourself to this room, the great, beautiful, lovely pieces, and maybe those dark, ugly, know, beat up
28:51
pieces.
28:52
And let's just look at them.
28:54
We don't have to bring the hammer down on ourselves.
28:57
Let's just take a look at them and see how these pieces fit together, what works for you and what doesn't, and how can we change those things.
29:06
So some of the things that I like to do with people is taking a look at those thought patterns.
29:12
What are those things that I automatically tell myself in any given situation that
29:19
It's just gospel truth for me because I've said it so many times.
29:24
Yet when they say it to me, I'm like, are we sure about that?
29:28
And so that kind of helps them think, yeah, okay, well maybe this thing that I have been telling myself served me in some way prior, but now it doesn't.
29:38
We know that one of the core tenets of CBT and other
29:43
flavors of psychology, our thoughts, our emotions, and our behaviors are all linked.
29:48
So if we change one of those things, we change the other two.
29:52
So I might want to tweak certain behaviors with a client.
29:56
So as an example, one of the things that I work with for people that find themselves in the eight to 10 range of their emotions.
30:04
Linehan would call this distress.
30:06
tolerance, are crisis situations, whether actual or perceived crises.
30:12
And when we're in that stage, the logical part of our brain, it just doesn't work.
30:17
It's being overwhelmed by the emotions that we're experiencing.
30:22
So if I don't have any training in that area, I might just say go off on somebody if that emotion is anger at an eight out of 10.
30:30
and then feel terrible after and then maybe, you go use.
30:34
If I am tweaking my behavior a little bit, I might practice using the dive response.
30:40
For those that are unfamiliar, in name, you're probably familiar in practice, which is if you jumped into a pool of cold water, you're probably not going to be as hotheaded all of
30:50
a sudden because you're probably going to be in survival mode, like, my God, get me out of here, right?
30:55
And so,
30:56
We can use that principle to change our behaviors and work for us.
31:01
Maybe that looks like going to a sink in the bathroom and just splashing cold water on your face for 30 seconds.
31:08
Maybe it's taking a cold compress and putting it on your forehead or the back of your neck.
31:13
Maybe that means finding a bowl, filling it with cold water.
31:18
Again, we're not talking ice cold here, just cold water.
31:21
And putting your face in it for 30 seconds if you can hold your breath that long.
31:25
That is going to cool the body down, which is, of course, going to cool the mind down, going to cool emotions down.
31:31
And people, a lot of times, don't even think about the power of something that could last 30 seconds.
31:37
Like, if you and I just sat here for 30 seconds in dead silence, it would be the most painful thing that people could experience.
31:47
mean, dead air for five seconds can be rough sometimes, let alone 30 seconds.
31:52
So imagine.
31:53
regulating your emotions in that way by changing your behavior for 30 seconds, it's gonna bring people down.
32:00
It's not gonna necessarily fix the problem.
32:02
We'll need other skills for that, but it can bring them down.
32:07
So I guess I find that the most, and maybe this is the man in me, I don't know, know what, task solution, right?
32:16
But I just find that while talking about emotions and processing them can be helpful,
32:22
There needs to be more to it than that if people are gonna get the benefit from therapy.
32:27
So while I don't think everything needs to be manualized, I do think that there can be significant benefits from having some sort of template and practical skills backed by
32:41
evidence that is going to really lead to people living better lives.
32:46
I hope I answered your question.
32:48
Yeah, I think so.
32:50
I guess I'm curious what you think about.
32:52
this is how I generally think about it and perhaps communicate it is basically when it comes to human suffering and wellbeing, you know, we haven't really discovered anything
33:03
new in the past few thousand years.
33:06
And one part of that is wonderful, right?
33:08
That's great because we know these things still work today and so we can trust them and rely on them.
33:14
And perhaps things like DBT or act.
33:19
or compassion, whatever, CBT even, are our modern way of delivering these ideas.
33:29
And yeah, so so I'm curious what you think about that.
33:32
Have we really discovered anything new?
33:34
Is it just repackaged or how do you kind of bridge that?
33:37
um
33:38
those thoughts about all this stuff.
33:40
Yeah, I think it's a really insightful thing you say because, you know, what do they say?
33:47
What's old is new again, right?
33:48
I mean, even Shakespeare, love all his plays that I've read.
33:52
Even he was inspired by somebody.
33:53
Macbeth is my favorite one of his and I remember in college talking about, well, where he was inspired, you know, by, so, you know, even he had people to look to, to repackage that
34:05
material.
34:07
And I think that it's a bit of both, right?
34:11
Where psychology on the whole is not necessarily doing anything new with some of the therapies.
34:22
And also, I think it can benefit people to name some of these behaviors that maybe haven't been named.
34:31
as clearly or as succinctly in the past.
34:34
So as an example, I don't know if you're familiar with the fundamental attribution error.
34:40
Yeah, so for those that are unfamiliar, essentially, if I see somebody being stupid in some way, right, or doing something that's erroneous, right, so let's say they're late to
34:55
work.
34:56
it's clearly an internal problem with them.
34:59
So they're stupid, they're lazy, whatever the case may be.
35:03
But if I find myself doing the same thing, then the reason for that is external.
35:09
So, well, there was a lot of traffic.
35:11
Well, my alarm didn't go off.
35:14
So I don't know how much of that ever had a label in the past.
35:20
So in that way, think psychology is adding new things.
35:24
I know when I was in grad school, though I haven't kept up on it as much, these network models were very exciting to kind of see how symptoms and disorders connect and how they
35:36
influence each other.
35:37
So while there are some new things, I think a lot of...
35:42
what helps people heal has been, as you say, sort of timeless.
35:47
And maybe this is just the modern way of restating it so that people get it, certainly with the backing of authority, right?
36:00
I had to go to school for thousand years to get a PhD after my name.
36:08
And that sort of makes people pay attention.
36:11
But if I was just someone with a high school diploma saying the same things, they might not pay attention in the same way.
36:17
I really like what you said.
36:20
I the way we're able to, I think you said something like put words to the things we're experiencing perhaps in different ways.
36:27
Yeah, that's really nice.
36:28
And yeah, I think a lot of that old, older language, Buddhist, stoic, whatever philosophy perhaps doesn't do it as.
36:36
descriptive or specific to people's lives now.
36:39
Can you tell talk a little bit more about that systems thing that you were referencing?
36:44
I'm not sure I'm that familiar with that.
36:47
Or can you expand upon that?
36:49
Sure, so I've been out of the game of it for a few years, but it's what I wrote my dissertation on.
36:55
uh There's a number of famous psychologists these days, Boersboom, my favorite, he's just such a kind man, Epscamp, Sasha Epscamp, and they have this idea and wanted to try to...
37:11
bring it a little bit more to the forefront of psychology that...
37:15
Symptoms in a network, in this case we'll say a disorder, so major depressive disorder.
37:21
Not all symptoms are going to be created equal.
37:26
So which symptoms may hold a little bit more weight to the network that is depression?
37:34
And if we can identify sort of the main players there,
37:40
Can we turn those off?
37:42
And does that shut the network off?
37:45
So, I think they started, there's some people starting to do this when I left grad school.
37:52
One of these days I'll look into it more.
37:54
But developing the mathematical formulas and the programming to actually create our own personalized networks.
38:03
So as an example, if you're depressed,
38:06
Maybe for you, the central ones are poor sleep, depressed mood most of the day.
38:12
But for me, it's going to be what we call anhedonia, so losing interest in things that used to bring me pleasure, and eating, weight gain or weight loss.
38:22
And so if I know that about an individual, I can customize my treatment to target those heavy hitter nodes a bit more.
38:34
uh which is then going to help them heal a bit more effectively, a bit more quickly.
38:40
These have been used, at least my dissertation, I use these for personality to take a look at the construct of extraversion uh from the big five and the ocean model.
38:50
So, while I don't know how much clinical application that had, it was very interesting to do.
38:58
And I certainly believe that.
39:00
that these network models could hold a big shift in psychology if they continue to kind of progress in the ways that I hope they do.
39:11
And I guess, even to not cut myself short there, sell myself short, I should say, those models around extroversion, if I know in general that, well, certain ways of thinking or
39:23
being sort of turn off
39:26
extraversion, I could target my my interventions to try and turn those back on a little bit so people might find themselves a little bit more at ease, a little bit more
39:37
extroverted, even if that's not the default state for them.
39:42
So it's really interesting stuff.
39:45
I I don't even want to pretend to...
39:48
get at the math behind it.
39:50
It's insane, but I really like the idea of it all.
39:54
Yeah, that was a great, I've never heard it or I've never really heard that, whatever theory, if you want to call it that and the way you articulated actually was really
40:04
insightful and clear, to me.
40:07
Yeah.
40:07
And, what comes up for me hearing that is something along the lines of, and maybe this also goes back to how you described the, the changes in the way we can target.
40:22
sort of these insights is.
40:23
Tell me if this kind of makes sense.
40:25
So if you can target the particular thought patterns or mechanisms, lifestyle behaviors around the specific thing, the healing comes more quickly.
40:38
And then rather than then perhaps this is just how it is needing 10 hours of conversation with a therapist.
40:46
or meditative insight or journaling or whatever to have that aha moment kind of idea where you get to the route faster.
40:55
Is that kind of what is implied by that?
40:57
I, yes, I don't want to discount all those other things.
41:01
um Because we know, you know, how humans are.
41:06
And even if we tell people this is what your problem is, they may still say no, and still want to go through the 10 hours like you're saying to get to the aha moment.
41:16
As a clinician, though, if I know that these certain nodes are
41:23
are more weighty for a client, I can, and they're willing to, we can target those things directly, which might, which would ideally help them a bit faster.
41:32
But even if it doesn't, and they still want to take the 10 hour route, then I can sort of keep those in the back of my mind.
41:39
And interventions around those nodes would be the first ones that I would always recommend.
41:46
It's not to say that you only have to target those specific ones.
41:51
It's just, if those are the weighty ones, let's go for the big daddies first before we go and do the side projects, right?
41:59
Right, right.
42:00
that's great.
42:01
Yeah, thank you.
42:01
That's one as a clinician personally, it's helpful to hear it put that way.
42:06
And I just think understanding that stuff is great.
42:09
Can you talk a little bit about how you see childhood, past life stuff and maybe that and as it relates to psychodynamic approaches, if you're familiar with that stuff.
42:25
Cause some, sometimes it's the, it's all about childhood.
42:29
Other times it's not all, you know, like wherever can you maybe just talk a little bit about your, your perspective on that stuff.
42:36
Sure, I'd be happy to.
42:37
We might be getting into sort of woo-woo territory here, but that's fine with me.
42:42
It's fine with your audience.
42:43
uh I haven't had any heavy psychodynamic training.
42:48
Most of what I had was from my theories classes.
42:52
And while Freud gets a bad rap, and in some ways I think he deserves to get a bad rap, there are...
43:02
many things that he talked about that we tend to take for granted today, and one of those things being the unconscious.
43:09
And if it wasn't for his work, we wouldn't have people that, you know, carried on his work in different ways, like Carl Jung.
43:18
So in a lot of ways, we owe him, you know, a debt of gratitude.
43:24
That being said,
43:25
It doesn't strike me as particularly important to focus all the time on childhood.
43:32
Does everything come back to our relationship with our mother?
43:35
No.
43:36
Not always.
43:37
Sometimes yes, and sometimes no.
43:39
Those relationships with our parents are important in early life, but
43:45
We're not sort of, I guess, stuck by those, it's not the phrase I'm looking for, but sort of so heavily impacted by them that we can't make other decisions.
43:58
It might influence us, but we always have a choice in the matter.
44:04
And if we're past life stuff, I find past lives to be fascinating.
44:12
personally.
44:12
mean, you know, nowhere in my m psychological training has that ever been talked about, though some early psychologists were interested in such things.
44:23
And I certainly wouldn't bring it into the therapy room.
44:26
But, you know, when I take my psychologist hat off, I like that idea of, you know, even if we screw something up in this life, or don't learn our lessons that we need to learn, we
44:38
get another chance, and we get to do it again.
44:40
And it sort of explains a little bit in a different way why certain things happen.
44:48
So as an example, I've had this happen to me multiple times in my life where I just walk in a room and I meet somebody and there's just something about that person.
44:57
I don't like them.
44:58
There's nothing that they've ever done to me.
44:59
There's nothing that they've said to me, but there's just something about them.
45:03
And when I've read sort of texts on past lives, like, well, that's probably because
45:08
You guys had some kind of conflict and you see them again and all of that's coming to the surface.
45:15
Now, again, your mileage may vary on all this.
45:18
You might think I sound like a crazy person and that's fine.
45:21
For those that are kind of interested though, I recently came across a book called The Spirit's Book.
45:26
It was sort of modernized.
45:29
The language was modernized by Alan, I'm blanking on his last name.
45:33
But the original author was Alan Kardic.
45:36
And so it's on the free version.
45:38
If you want to try and decipher the old language, you can get it.
45:42
But if you want the modernized version, it's on Amazon.
45:46
It's a fascinating read for those that like that kind of stuff.
45:49
So I highly recommend checking it out.
45:51
Thank you.
45:53
I want to, I guess, pick your brain a bit more on the childhood stuff.
45:57
how you see, say somebody had an abusive parent or maybe not abusive, but sort of dysregulated, a little erratic, et cetera, or pick your situation.
46:08
How does that tend to follow people?
46:11
And obviously these are all generalizations, but how does that tend to follow people throughout their life?
46:16
And then how...
46:18
How may that show up in a present relationship or behavior pattern?
46:22
And how do you help people connect those dots?
46:26
Well, it certainly can follow.
46:27
And the main reason I think it follows is because it's just the normal.
46:33
It's the norm.
46:34
Sort of the example that I use with clients is remember how your family operated as you were young, and then for the first time, you went over to a friend's house for dinner, for
46:46
a sleepover, and...
46:48
completely different, know, and strange and weird.
46:52
And maybe sometimes it was worse, maybe sometimes it was better, maybe sometimes it was just different.
46:59
But having that sort of realization that there's different ways of uh being can help, you know, get a kid thinking.
47:08
Now, sometimes, depending on where the kid is in their life, they might...
47:13
kind of shut that down and just say, well, I just want to kind of do the things the way that I'm used to doing them.
47:20
Maybe, like you said, they have a parent who has that emotional dysregulation and they might even say consciously, I'm not going to do that.
47:28
I'm going to be different.
47:29
But we go with what we know.
47:31
And so if that's the only thing that you know, and even if it isn't the only thing that you know, but you don't want to do that deeper work because it might be scary,
47:40
or you might not even know that you need to do deeper work at that point.
47:43
Well, that's how people end up finding themselves enacting or replaying the same relationship dynamics when they grow up with friends, with romantic partners, because
47:57
that's just what they're used to.
48:00
And sometimes it's a big slap in the face, like, my God, I've become my mother, or my God, I've become my dad.
48:05
Which...
48:05
Again, it's not like a bad thing in that you're weird or morally deficient in some way.
48:12
It's normal in a lot of cases.
48:15
The question becomes though, if those patterns are not serving you and they're destructive, what do we do about it?
48:23
Because you can keep doing the thing if you want to.
48:26
If you want to live a better life, then maybe it's time to actually look in the mirror and do something different.
48:31
on thank you I just also noticed the time here can you as we sort of wind down here you have a well according to the clock we have three minutes technically you have a you have a
48:42
three minute reset little practice right a little protocol that you talk about or can you maybe walk us through that not worrying about the time of course but just what is that
48:53
sort of
48:53
quick protocol look like, because often we encourage people or I encourage people to practice something from the episode that week.
49:01
can you walk us through that?
49:04
Absolutely.
49:04
So the free thing that I have on my website is called the Autopilot Interrupt Protocol.
49:10
And it's essentially what I call micro drills that people can do during the day to increase their mindfulness capacity.
49:21
So unfortunately, a lot of people tend to think that, if I want to be more mindful, I need to, you know, shave my head, become a monk and just...
49:32
sit on a mountaintop, you know, for years of my life.
49:35
And then I will be a lot more mindful and, you know, can do the meditation thing.
49:40
And it's just not true.
49:42
It's just not true.
49:44
There are various things you can do during the day to check in with yourself, to see what's going on with you, not in a judgmental way, but just in a way that, okay, I can see
49:57
what's happening in me.
49:59
and I'm going to do something different if this thing that's happening doesn't serve me.
50:05
And so as far as some of the drills, something that people can do is pausing.
50:11
And I don't quite remember if this exact wording is in the protocol, but setting an alarm on your phone.
50:17
Every hour on the hour, pause for three minutes.
50:19
What's happening with me?
50:21
I'm going to sort of rate.
50:24
and write down what is occurring within me, and then I'm going to be able to pick a solution to help me work through whatever that particular issue is.
50:34
So it might be I'm going to change how I'm breathing, doing a quick 30-second breath work.
50:39
It might be just changing my focus.
50:43
So as an example, I suspect you and hopefully everyone in your audience brushed your teeth this morning.
50:50
I did.
50:50
And while I was brushing my teeth, I know my mind was elsewhere.
50:56
What would it be like to catch yourself doing that?
51:00
Recognizing, hey, I want to just kind of focus on this moment.
51:04
It doesn't take that long to brush our teeth, right?
51:06
So I'm going to focus on this moment.
51:08
What's the weight of the toothbrush feel like?
51:10
What's the taste of the toothpaste in my mouth?
51:13
You know, what are the bristles of the toothbrush feel like on my teeth?
51:16
Changing focus.
51:17
can help us build those mindfulness skills.
51:20
And people may be wondering, okay, well, how does doing this for a few minutes a day and tracking it, how does that help with my capacity for mindfulness?
51:30
Well, it's sort of like working out.
51:33
I mean, you don't start benching 500 pounds because, hey, well, that's what you're supposed to do and that's what the big buff guys do on TV.
51:43
You start with the five pound weight.
51:45
and then you can graduate up to the 10 and the 15.
51:49
And so by building our mindfulness skills, this allows us to check in with heavier things.
51:56
Hold on, I'm noticing all of a sudden that I'm clenching my jaw.
52:00
Okay, what's going on there?
52:02
Well, I've already practiced my three minutes, you know, so now that I have that capacity, maybe I can focus on, excuse me, what's going on mentally for five minutes.
52:15
Why is it that I'm clenching my jaw here?
52:18
What about the situation in front of me maybe feels threatening or intense?
52:23
Not necessarily physically threatening, but you know, emotionally threatening.
52:26
And this of course can be built and built and built to the point where, I mean, you can use your communication skills like Dear Man for those that like DBT beautifully.
52:37
I mean, you can execute it perfectly.
52:39
Most of the time you can...
52:40
regulate your emotions with skills like checking the facts or opposite action beautifully most of the time But you can't really do that right out of the gate if you don't really
52:53
have any training or capacity So I encourage everyone go check out, know the the PDF it's free It helps people, you know in their daily lives.
53:01
It's quick it doesn't have to be this thing that you spend hours a day on and
53:07
For the people that have done it so far, I've gotten some really nice reviews and results on it.
53:12
So go check it out, might be for you.
53:14
Awesome.
53:15
Thank you.
53:16
All right.
53:16
Well, any lasting thoughts or things that you're or
53:20
inspired by these days or working on these days that we haven't discussed so far.
53:24
Sure, mean, once again, just, you thanks for having me on.
53:27
I appreciate it.
53:28
As far as things that I've been sort of thinking about these days, it's fun.
53:34
Not the band, but the actual concept.
53:37
There's a lot of heavy news online these days happening in the world.
53:42
And so one of the things that I've been trying to do to, you know,
53:47
Destress and unplug from that is to focus on doing fun things Whatever that looks like.
53:54
So for me right now Actually, my wife and I have been streaming video games and we've been playing the newest Resident Evil so Screaming at zombies as they attack us for the world
54:07
to to laugh at But you know, we've been fortunate in that we have a really
54:11
nice community of people that enjoy our content and it's just been really rewarding.
54:17
Even if there's been a long tough day that's been helpful.
54:20
So whether it's streaming games or whether it's you know a certain TV show or going for a walk, I just encourage everyone out there find ways to put more fun into your life because
54:33
you know there's a lot of heaviness.
54:35
So let's try and lighten it up where we can.
54:37
Awesome, thank you so much.
54:39
And all your info will be in the show notes for people to check out.
54:43
again, Greg, thank you so much for your time and wisdom.
54:46
Thanks again, Mike.
54:47
Appreciate it.
54:48
All
54:49
Thanks for listening to the Thanks for listening to this episode of the State of Mind Podcast.
54:55
Before you go, pick one idea from today's episode and practice it this week.
55:01
Remember, live with courage, clarity, and compassion.
55:05
Practice inner strength and develop within.
55:08
If you enjoyed this, please follow, subscribe, leave a quick rating, or kind and encouraging review.
55:17
And share this episode with someone who you think might find it helpful.
55:22
I wish you all the very best.
55:24
Take it easy.
55:25
Peace out.