Latest / Untoxicated Podcast / Ep253 – Authenticity while Honoring His Memory with Melanie

Transcript

Ep253 – Authenticity while Honoring His Memory with Melanie · Untoxicated Podcast

• 0:01
  Welcome to the intoxicated
• 0:03
  podcast.
• 0:05
  Well, I'm Sherry S, and that was my
• 0:07
  husband Matt. We have questions about the impact
• 0:10
  of alcohol and addiction on relationships. If you
• 0:13
  have those kinds of questions to you're in
• 0:15
  the right place, Here we go.
• 0:20
  Welcome to the intoxicated podcast melanie.
• 0:23
  I know how excited
• 0:25
  Sherry and I both are to have you
• 0:27
  because,
• 0:28
  when we just love having guests on. But
• 0:30
  also because in the
• 0:32
  few months that we've known you now, you
• 0:34
  have become a dear sweet friend and a
• 0:36
  really important part of our lives. And anytime
• 0:39
  we get a chance to interact with you,
• 0:40
  it's a huge blessing
• 0:42
  And so thank you for taking the time
• 0:44
  and being with us on the intoxicated podcast
• 0:46
  melanie.
• 0:47
  Thank you for having me. Melanie
• 0:49
  is besides a friend of ours.
• 0:53
  Her husband named Scott suffered from alcohol use
• 0:56
  disorder.
• 0:58
  She has 3 kids
• 1:00
  she has... Is a dog and cat lover
• 1:02
  and has them usually on the video screen
• 1:06
  when we're on Zoom calls, so Sherry gets
• 1:08
  to look and admire.
• 1:09
  And gus over them.
• 1:12
  Along with your husband, Scott, you started businesses
• 1:15
  together, and so you are a business owner
• 1:18
  And Sadly Melanie, you for a little over
• 1:21
  a year now,
• 1:23
  anniversary was in June, I believe,
• 1:25
  you are a widow.
• 1:27
  Yes.
• 1:28
  Well, thank you for coming on. I know
• 1:30
  how
• 1:31
  difficult this is, but it's really, really important.
• 1:34
  And so
• 1:35
  Thank you so much for coming on and
• 1:38
  telling your story. And so I think
• 1:40
  we should jump right in
• 1:42
  with your story and and let's start for
• 1:44
  the beginning how you and Scott met and
• 1:47
  and what were the early years like?
• 1:50
  Okay.
• 1:51
  Well, we met in... I think it was
• 1:53
  94. It was kind of my first main
• 1:55
  job out of college.
• 1:57
  I went to school for social work. So
• 2:00
  I got a job and a group home
• 2:01
  for adolescent girls and Scott worked was my
• 2:04
  coworker.
• 2:06
  We worked they they referred to it as
• 2:08
  the mom pop shift because we,
• 2:11
  had the shift where the kids came home
• 2:12
  from school, bed dinner, you know, homework and
• 2:15
  got him ready for bed. So we
• 2:19
  we got a along well as coworkers and
• 2:22
  Was was it always was it always a
• 2:24
  Like, yeah. I've heard you describe it as
• 2:26
  the mom and pox shift before. Is it...
• 2:28
  Did it? Did did it have to be
• 2:30
  a man and a woman? Like, that's kinda...
• 2:31
  No. No. Not. No. Was. And and actually
• 2:34
  there was... I mean, because we didn't work
• 2:36
  all 4, you know, weekdays together. So, you
• 2:38
  know, it it wasn't... It was just kind,
• 2:40
  but that's just still how they referred to
• 2:41
  it just because know, but kinda taking the
• 2:43
  role parents during that shift. So,
• 2:46
  the note wasn't always a man in the
• 2:47
  woman, but... Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah.
• 2:51
  You,
• 2:51
  so, yeah. And
• 2:54
  there was always, you know, kind of a
• 2:56
  physical attraction.
• 2:59
  We would...
• 3:00
  Touch fingers exchanging the master key and there'd
• 3:02
  be a tingle, and
• 3:04
  so we just... And we we really gel
• 3:06
  really well together and and
• 3:09
  kind of how we how we kind of
• 3:12
  parent, You know, that was kind of the
• 3:13
  job was to to, you know, your your
• 3:16
  counselor, but you're also
• 3:17
  acting as the parent, and just got really
• 3:20
  along really well. Had shared good interest together.
• 3:23
  He was kinda of my my dream guy,
• 3:25
  he was kind of a bad boy with
• 3:27
  a good heart.
• 3:29
  He
• 3:30
  had long, like, look care almost down to
• 3:33
  his waist curly and
• 3:35
  he rode motorcycles
• 3:36
  and
• 3:38
  but... Yeah. We just
• 3:39
  had a lot of fun together.
• 3:41
  We would when we then then did start
• 3:44
  dating, and
• 3:46
  we would go camping in the boundary waters
• 3:49
  for a couple weeks at a time,
• 3:52
  Just enjoyed each other's company. There wasn't
• 3:56
  alcohol wasn't really a part of our... We
• 3:58
  were more likely to smoke a little weed
• 3:59
  than we were to drink.
• 4:02
  So it wasn't really a part of who
• 4:04
  we were.
• 4:06
  But we just had fun together and
• 4:09
  So... And, I mean, we would have
• 4:11
  hours long phone conversations, and he I'm from
• 4:13
  a big family. And he would have spreadsheets
• 4:15
  of
• 4:16
  who, you know, like a family trees that
• 4:18
  he would draw out as we were talking.
• 4:20
  I didn't know this at the time, but
• 4:21
  he would just ask questions, and so he
• 4:22
  was kinda getting the information
• 4:24
  preparing, I think. So...
• 4:27
  That's great. What what a interesting start to
• 4:30
  the relationship?
• 4:31
  It's too bad every couple doesn't get a
• 4:33
  chance to work the mom and pop ship,
• 4:35
  shift at a girl's home. You get to
• 4:38
  practice parenting. You get to practice c parenting
• 4:41
  and see what kind of person
• 4:42
  you're getting yourself involved with. So that's that's
• 4:45
  really cool.
• 4:47
  Yep. That's what I thought too.
• 4:49
  Yeah.
• 4:51
  So,
• 4:52
  little weed, maybe on the camping trips, but
• 4:54
  no alcohol yet. Well, first, before we get
• 4:58
  into alcohol, how did you transition from
• 5:01
  from that, you know, the social worker role
• 5:05
  to
• 5:06
  owning businesses.
• 5:09
  Well, we were kinda tired of living and...
• 5:12
  Poverty particularly. So okay. Moments.
• 5:16
  We started the business part time when we
• 5:18
  were both still working for full time
• 5:21
  And we actually,
• 5:22
  became business partners before we got married,
• 5:25
  and then
• 5:26
  got married and still were working
• 5:29
  I kinda trans... He stayed at the group.
• 5:30
  I kinda transitioned I I tried to tried
• 5:32
  my hand in real estate me.
• 5:35
  And and ended up at a, like, software
• 5:37
  company doing kinda tech writing and stuff.
• 5:41
  So...
• 5:43
  And that was when we probably started our
• 5:45
  family then. We had my,
• 5:47
  my first son, my oldest son was born
• 5:48
  in 2001.
• 5:50
  And
• 5:52
  at that point,
• 5:54
  Scott became a stay at home dad.
• 5:56
  Any work of business full time. I was
• 5:58
  still working to have health insurance and and
• 6:01
  that. So... And then I think it was
• 6:03
  about a year when my son was year
• 6:05
  old when I was able to... We kinda
• 6:07
  took the leap and I quit to, and
• 6:10
  and we just worked the business from full
• 6:12
  time from then on
• 6:13
  And who it... The business is not related
• 6:15
  to social work. It's not related to real
• 6:18
  estate. It's related related to your and passion
• 6:20
  of animals. Right. Yeah. Yes.
• 6:23
  Yeah. Very cool.
• 6:24
  Right. So that is quite quite leap. But,
• 6:27
  obviously,
• 6:28
  it worked out and
• 6:30
  you know, the business took off and was
• 6:32
  successful. Yeah?
• 6:33
  Yes. Yeah. I mean, it took time and
• 6:35
  hard work. But, yeah. I mean, right now
• 6:37
  and we started a second business and, like,
• 6:40
  thousand 5,
• 6:42
  had 2 little ones at that point.
• 6:45
  And
• 6:46
  I started a manufacturing business too. So we
• 6:49
  have employees. We have... Yeah. So it's it's
• 6:51
  worked out well. It's it's something we both
• 6:54
  enjoyed and
• 6:56
  and he... He's, you know, kind of always
• 6:58
  been an entrepreneur
• 7:01
  from
• 7:01
  grade school days when he used to
• 7:04
  take copper wire from his garage and sell
• 7:06
  it to kids at school whatever for reason
• 7:09
  or or he would buy both bubble gum
• 7:12
  and then go sell it at lunch for,
• 7:13
  you know, however very much a piece and
• 7:15
  and make money. So, yeah, Kinda got trouble
• 7:18
  for that. But... But... Yeah. So we all
• 7:20
  had that... We had a kid that did
• 7:22
  that with with Ta, the spicy chip. First,
• 7:25
  he did it with doughnuts.
• 7:26
  But... And that is it with the spicy
• 7:28
  chips some the school bus. But his brother
• 7:30
  would eat too many of the if buy
• 7:32
  a big bulk bag. It's chips and his
• 7:34
  younger brother would eat half of them before
• 7:36
  he could sell them and so that just
• 7:37
  became a big big fight in the house.
• 7:40
  But I love the entrepreneurial spirit. That's great.
• 7:44
  Along with that kind of
• 7:46
  entrepreneurial spirit and the leap of faith
• 7:49
  and, you know,
• 7:50
  starting businesses,
• 7:52
  That's... It it is hard work as you
• 7:54
  mentioned and eventually was successful for you, but
• 7:57
  it's also really stressful.
• 7:59
  Was... Yeah. How how did both of you?
• 8:01
  How did you and Scott deal with the
• 8:03
  stress of the unknown, especially now you got
• 8:05
  kids. Right?
• 8:06
  Right.
• 8:07
  Well, I think we, you know, we had
• 8:09
  our third
• 8:11
  little girl in 2006,
• 8:14
  and that was that completed our our kid
• 8:16
  family. And,
• 8:20
  I think
• 8:21
  really the first really stressful time was probably
• 8:24
  2008
• 8:25
  during the economic downturn
• 8:27
  in o 8, and
• 8:30
  that was... It became really stressful where we
• 8:33
  were kind of putting a lot of,
• 8:35
  using our credit card balances to to keep
• 8:38
  a afloat and and while we kind of
• 8:40
  pivoted to to more business to business,
• 8:44
  try to, you know, expand in different areas
• 8:46
  and things like that. And that was also
• 8:48
  kind of the time when
• 8:51
  a drink at night to wind down kinda
• 8:54
  started for both of us.
• 8:56
  Mh. So that was kind of the where
• 8:58
  I would say,
• 9:00
  any kind of unhealthy
• 9:02
  relationship with alcohol started
• 9:04
  was during
• 9:05
  the the stressful time of the business. And
• 9:07
  and, you know, and he
• 9:10
  otherwise, his mind didn't shut off.
• 9:12
  The kinda keep keep thinking about... It was
• 9:15
  hard to get him to step away. From
• 9:18
  from work. So...
• 9:20
  Yeah.
• 9:21
  Very familiar.
• 9:23
  With the the chaotic mind that won't shut
• 9:25
  off and you. I know Sherry
• 9:26
  dinner relate to the idea of,
• 9:29
  you know, it's well into the evening, and
• 9:30
  I'm still talking about ideas or thoughts. Mh.
• 9:33
  It's hard to deal with,
• 9:35
  Yeah. It is. Yeah.
• 9:38
  Alright. So...
• 9:39
  But it's... But so far, it's just a
• 9:41
  a drink unwind.
• 9:43
  Couldn't possibly be any red flags for you
• 9:45
  at this point. Right? This is just were
• 9:47
  adults in the is how we is how
• 9:49
  we adult. Right?
• 9:51
  Right. Yeah. No there really wasn't them. It
• 9:53
  wasn't like he us
• 9:54
  or either of us were drinking to excess
• 9:56
  at that time or anything like that. It
• 9:58
  was just... Yeah. Just to be able to
• 10:00
  kinda shut your mind off and go to
• 10:02
  sleep
• 10:02
  Yeah. At night.
• 10:04
  So
• 10:05
  tell us what happens next? How does it
• 10:07
  progress?
• 10:10
  Well, I think that
• 10:14
  there was time to where where... I think
• 10:16
  it got to be more and more for
• 10:17
  Scott.
• 10:19
  He had some sci back pain
• 10:22
  that he kinda self medicated for too, even
• 10:25
  as much sorry get up in the night
• 10:27
  and and drink a couple beers because it
• 10:30
  hurt,
• 10:31
  you know, be able to go back to
• 10:32
  sleep, which is, you know, again,
• 10:35
  unhealthy coping.
• 10:37
  Mechanism, but...
• 10:39
  So I think that kind of started,
• 10:43
  amp up for him, and I really was
• 10:44
  not aware. Of that at the time. I
• 10:47
  didn't know that he was drinking more and
• 10:49
  more.
• 10:51
  He... There was a time
• 10:54
  now looking back on it, I'm...
• 10:57
  It was probably
• 10:59
  his first
• 11:00
  withdrawal
• 11:01
  seizure.
• 11:03
  I thought at the time that he fell,
• 11:05
  hit his head,
• 11:07
  gave himself a concussion and then had a
• 11:09
  seizure.
• 11:10
  But my thought process now is it was
• 11:13
  probably
• 11:15
  a seizure and then he fell and hit
• 11:17
  his head. Mh. Because III
• 11:20
  found him
• 11:22
  composing, called the ambulance.
• 11:24
  Get he didn't wanna go in the Ambulance,
• 11:26
  but he was out of it enough that
• 11:27
  they took him,
• 11:28
  like, thought member found the ambulance
• 11:31
  to the hospital, like, what's going on and
• 11:34
  getting there and and they did, you know,
• 11:37
  test is, what I'll alcohol was 0,
• 11:39
  but he was just shaky still. And he
• 11:42
  only had the... All the
• 11:44
  Mris and 0 cat scan and stuff to
• 11:47
  to make sure nothing more serious was going
• 11:50
  on,
• 11:51
  but I really think that was probably
• 11:53
  the first... And I don't know if that
• 11:55
  was maybe 2010, 2011
• 11:58
  somewhere in there.
• 12:00
  Were... But again, I was clueless to that
• 12:02
  that that was going on.
• 12:04
  What's really interesting about that is
• 12:07
  a lot of people aren't aware, probably lots
• 12:09
  of people who listen to this podcast are
• 12:11
  aware but a lot of people aren't aware
• 12:13
  that alcohol is actually the most dangerous of
• 12:16
  the drugs to come off of once you're
• 12:19
  physically addicted.
• 12:21
  You you don't get withdrawal seizures from, even
• 12:24
  heroin or methamphetamine. This is a
• 12:28
  alcohol specific thing, and So quitting cold turkey
• 12:31
  or going through long periods of sobriety or
• 12:33
  any really period of sobriety. Once your body
• 12:35
  is dependent on the substance.
• 12:37
  Is really dangerous and leads to the kind
• 12:39
  of seizures you're talking about. What's interesting though
• 12:42
  is that,
• 12:43
  you know, so you're aware that he's having
• 12:45
  a drink or 2 at night. But you're
• 12:47
  not aware that he has formed this dependency
• 12:51
  because he's in addition to what you're seeing.
• 12:53
  He's also sneak drinking like you mentioned for
• 12:55
  a little bit of medicinal drinking in the
• 12:56
  middle of the night, that kind of thing?
• 12:58
  Mh. Yeah. Just stuff I wasn't aware of.
• 13:01
  So... Yeah. So yeah look I
• 13:04
  when you look back, were you able to
• 13:06
  piece together how much he was he was
• 13:09
  drinking?
• 13:10
  Or is that still kind of a mystery
• 13:11
  for you? That's the kind of a mystery.
• 13:13
  I really don't
• 13:15
  know for sure. Because, again, I... This is
• 13:17
  all kind of... I wasn't anything at the
• 13:19
  time that I
• 13:21
  realized was going on.
• 13:23
  So I didn't
• 13:25
  didn't understand the the reasons I just thought,
• 13:27
  yeah, He had a concussion. That was that
• 13:29
  was it. So
• 13:32
  I mean, the the... I just think that's
• 13:34
  really important to highlight because
• 13:36
  the trauma that you've experienced
• 13:38
  is twofold to me. There's the trauma that's
• 13:41
  obvious. There's the stuff that you you did
• 13:43
  realize you saw with your own eyes. And
• 13:45
  then there's just the the unknown that
• 13:48
  the une
• 13:50
  experiences that you struggled through
• 13:53
  that at the time anyway, and and like
• 13:55
  we I said even now, You're not sure
• 13:57
  exactly how much he was drinking or where
• 13:59
  or how or when?
• 14:02
  So I just think it's a it's a
• 14:04
  The unknown it can be as trauma
• 14:07
  as the known can be as well because,
• 14:09
  you don't know what... You know, you can
• 14:11
  only
• 14:12
  play with the cards you're you're dealt and
• 14:14
  there's stuff going on that you're not aware
• 14:16
  of. So I just think that's really, really,
• 14:18
  really difficult.
• 14:20
  You, when it it became... I became more
• 14:22
  and more aware Time Yeah So and, you
• 14:25
  know, but, yeah, At first, I wasn't. So...
• 14:27
  Talk talk about that. When did, when was
• 14:29
  it not just a drink her 2 at
• 14:31
  night and then hit and drink he weren't
• 14:32
  aware of? What what happened to kinda bring
• 14:34
  it down to the light?
• 14:36
  I well,
• 14:37
  don't know what... Well, I think that my
• 14:39
  my daughter was my youngest was was diagnosed
• 14:42
  on the autism spectrum
• 14:45
  when she was
• 14:46
  5 or 6 years old. And I think
• 14:49
  that hit him really hard and then I
• 14:51
  knew that he was kinda drinking more and
• 14:53
  more. It wasn't always
• 14:56
  a lot. I think the pink drinks got
• 14:57
  bigger, like, in bigger and bigger glasses and
• 15:00
  stronger and stronger
• 15:02
  for him. Now and
• 15:08
  he
• 15:10
  there was... I know there was a time
• 15:11
  on a family vacation.
• 15:13
  Where it really kind of all
• 15:15
  got really bad where it was hard liquor
• 15:18
  because it it was normally a beer drinker.
• 15:20
  But there was we were on vacation. So,
• 15:22
  of course, you're gonna break out the hard
• 15:25
  liquor, and there was a an incident,
• 15:30
  at night
• 15:31
  where where
• 15:33
  it was close to violence
• 15:36
  And I ended up, you know, leaving before
• 15:39
  sleep on the couch,
• 15:41
  and in the next morning, he had no
• 15:43
  recollection. At all.
• 15:45
  So this was kind of the first
• 15:48
  venture into the rules, you know,
• 15:50
  they're gonna have that school that they're
• 15:52
  there's no more hard hard liquor that's just
• 15:56
  not acceptable.
• 15:59
  So
• 16:01
  yeah. That was... And that way, you know,
• 16:05
  as you might expect, there sometimes there was
• 16:07
  some hard liquor and it was
• 16:10
  that he didn't think I would know, or
• 16:12
  if I happen to have wine in the
• 16:13
  house, he would, drink... You know, drink that.
• 16:16
  Like... There was never
• 16:17
  you would never have leftover wine.
• 16:20
  That was always gone by the morning. Our,
• 16:23
  or, you know, a Christmas... It's Christmas time.
• 16:25
  We have to
• 16:27
  have bailey or... You know, there was there
• 16:29
  was times when It was
• 16:32
  exceptions to our our our rules,
• 16:36
  How much did he involve you in the
• 16:38
  rule making? Like, was he telling you what
• 16:40
  he was doing or asking your opinion?
• 16:42
  No. That was actually more my rule of
• 16:44
  of the hard liquor rule because because...
• 16:47
  Yeah. I got... But so his were more
• 16:49
  like,
• 16:50
  like, he was cutting back. And he was
• 16:52
  his his quitting plan could have lasted, you
• 16:55
  know, a century
• 16:56
  because he was cutting back and cutting back,
• 16:57
  but it never really... It was more like
• 17:00
  how much do you think I'm drinking? Okay.
• 17:02
  That's...
• 17:04
  I don't know. It it wasn't real. It...
• 17:06
  So the rules we put around are drinking.
• 17:08
  The rules for alcoholic. They're all sadly rules
• 17:11
  that are made to be broken.
• 17:12
  So
• 17:14
  are you
• 17:15
  confronting him a lot at this or at
• 17:17
  this point are you Are you telling him,
• 17:19
  hey, I think you've got a problem. Is
• 17:21
  he acknowledging that? Or is there denial involved?
• 17:27
  Yeah. There's... I mean,
• 17:29
  I think it...
• 17:31
  There's only so much denial you can do.
• 17:33
  And and... Yeah, This is where the
• 17:36
  different plans for cutting back,
• 17:38
  and and kind of admin admitting that he
• 17:40
  had a problem, but but more, like, well,
• 17:42
  if this is what you want me to
• 17:44
  do,
• 17:45
  Okay. Then I'll do it. You know, I
• 17:46
  don't have a problem with that When in
• 17:48
  Melanie, he did have a problem with that.
• 17:50
  I mean, because
• 17:52
  I remember 1 of the attempts was
• 17:54
  to do 1 beer an hour,
• 17:56
  and
• 17:57
  and, you know, so... And even that,
• 18:00
  we were... Every everybody
• 18:02
  this is 1 of the
• 18:04
  traumatic events too.
• 18:05
  We were watching
• 18:07
  movie. It was called
• 18:08
  I think World war z,
• 18:11
  something like that. And the the premise of
• 18:13
  the movie was some kind of
• 18:15
  illness that people were getting it would turn
• 18:17
  him into, like, a Zombie. Right? But the
• 18:19
  first part of it was
• 18:21
  having a seizure was how that was when
• 18:23
  they were infected. So me and my 2
• 18:25
  sons and him were watching this movie would
• 18:26
  be he doing this 1 beer Howard thing.
• 18:29
  And all a sudden, he's beside me shaking,
• 18:32
  and I'm think we're thinking oh, come on
• 18:33
  dad, you know.
• 18:35
  Knock it off. Yes pretend. He's playing up
• 18:37
  the zombie thing. Right. I thought about what
• 18:40
  it was, but no. It was a seizure.
• 18:42
  And
• 18:43
  just from cutting back,
• 18:45
  So it had to be... Wow.
• 18:47
  A lot more than that. So that even
• 18:49
  that just cutting back not not going to
• 18:51
  nothing or not, you know,
• 18:53
  2 and 8, whatever. Nothing like that. It
• 18:55
  was just 1 an hour.
• 18:57
  Wow. Mh.
• 18:58
  And it was... Yeah. We never finished watching
• 19:00
  that movie. So
• 19:02
  It was... Yeah. But... Yeah. Just... So... Yeah.
• 19:04
  There was several attempts over the year. So
• 19:06
  he did... Yes, say,
• 19:08
  there was a
• 19:10
  problem, but he wouldn't... He didn't like the
• 19:12
  term alcoholic. He didn't wanna label himself that,
• 19:17
  that was... That was never something he really
• 19:20
  accepted, I guess, and
• 19:22
  as a
• 19:24
  I don't know. I guess, just because he
• 19:25
  didn't wanna announce the world. I'm in alcoholic
• 19:28
  and you know... Like, like, like, the the
• 19:29
  Aa beginning of the beating is. My name
• 19:32
  is Got alcoholic that was never gonna
• 19:34
  never gonna be. So...
• 19:36
  Mh. So was it you know, obviously, you've
• 19:39
  got these traumatic experiences, but was it also
• 19:41
  causing
• 19:42
  friction in the marriage where you fighting a
• 19:45
  lot?
• 19:46
  What... It was it just hard to
• 19:48
  See on things?
• 19:50
  Yeah. It was... I mean, we still...
• 19:53
  You know, there was things that we did
• 19:55
  See on.
• 19:57
  Still... I mean, kind of the the big
• 19:59
  things. But
• 20:01
  but, yeah, there was a lot of...
• 20:03
  I don't know if it was just caused
• 20:04
  by
• 20:07
  me wanting him to cut back, and that
• 20:08
  was what caused a lot of the friction.
• 20:11
  But there also were things that
• 20:15
  but
• 20:16
  he
• 20:17
  it made him irritable it started to change
• 20:19
  him, and and and it he was not
• 20:22
  being as nice to the kids and
• 20:25
  It's was like, we couldn't do anything right
• 20:27
  to please him.
• 20:29
  So there was
• 20:30
  there was conflict, and I mean, I know
• 20:33
  I've talk to you guys before about the
• 20:34
  lawn. I I was never so tired of
• 20:36
  hearing about the damn lawn. It's grass. I
• 20:39
  really don't care if it's
• 20:41
  too longer. It's not mode. Right. And and,
• 20:44
  you know, So, yeah, it did just be...
• 20:46
  He it started to change him who he
• 20:47
  was. His personality
• 20:49
  was just not
• 20:51
  the
• 20:52
  loving,
• 20:53
  you know, caring person
• 20:55
  that
• 20:57
  I met and fell in love with.
• 21:00
  But You've Yeah. You've you've still got this
• 21:02
  stressful career thing going on.
• 21:06
  You know, when you talk about it now,
• 21:08
  you've got a lot of clarity
• 21:10
  And that's that's great. That's really important for
• 21:14
  you
• 21:15
  as you work through all this stuff that
• 21:17
  you've gotta work through. But at the time,
• 21:19
  did you have this level of clear... Like,
• 21:21
  did... Should you say this is the alcohol
• 21:23
  that's changing my husband? Or did you wonder
• 21:26
  Is it the stress? Is it the alcohol?
• 21:28
  Is it the business? Is it is he
• 21:30
  growing older? Like, did you did you understand
• 21:32
  what was happening in the moment?
• 21:36
  I really think I did because that was
• 21:39
  the change
• 21:40
  that,
• 21:43
  and and
• 21:45
  you know, there there was a point where
• 21:46
  you could
• 21:48
  see it in him. You could... Like, it
• 21:50
  was like a switch when he... When it
• 21:51
  was drinking for. I mean I... There was
• 21:53
  a time where I count. And I knew
• 21:55
  how much. But after a while, I could
• 21:57
  tell by the behavior, what beer he said.
• 21:59
  Or at least if he was over this
• 22:01
  many,
• 22:03
  So it it I I know there was
• 22:06
  stress
• 22:08
  in the business, and that's kind of 1
• 22:10
  of 1 of the things
• 22:12
  because there's always you no, would you ever
• 22:13
  think about why I drink that I heard
• 22:15
  that a lot. Sure. Have you ever asked
• 22:17
  yourself why it is I drink and it
• 22:19
  was partially,
• 22:20
  you know, because I've changed as, you know,
• 22:23
  I'm
• 22:24
  not a, I guess, a 24 year old
• 22:27
  girl anymore.
• 22:29
  And and they also, you know, we blame
• 22:32
  did blame a lot on the business stress,
• 22:34
  and being responsible had when we had employees
• 22:37
  was being responsible for other people.
• 22:39
  And and have you ever considered that. Well,
• 22:41
  yeah. Kind of since I'm I'm in this
• 22:43
  with you too, you know, but but I
• 22:46
  think he claimed a lot of that stress
• 22:47
  was was almost like it was only his
• 22:49
  stress, not Not us as a team.
• 22:52
  So
• 22:54
  but,
• 22:55
  I just wanna point out, Late. You mentioned,
• 22:57
  like, he was displeased with your lawn service.
• 22:59
  He had fired several people because they wouldn't
• 23:02
  do the lawn right. He was getting g
• 23:03
  you with the kids. When you knew when
• 23:05
  you met him that he was this big
• 23:07
  soft, and he really did probably care about
• 23:09
  these young ladies that you worked with in
• 23:12
  this group home. So you saw all these
• 23:14
  changes. And I feel like it can be
• 23:16
  so easily dismissed and thrown back on
• 23:19
  the partner,
• 23:21
  when you see it's the alcohol, You see
• 23:23
  the changes.
• 23:24
  And but they're so small. And when people
• 23:26
  are, like, you know, arguing to keep alcohol
• 23:29
  in their life, and then they throw it
• 23:31
  back on the partner, what, you've change because
• 23:34
  now you're a ag, you don't, you know,
• 23:36
  it's hard for
• 23:38
  you in that situation a lot of times
• 23:40
  to see that.
• 23:42
  And to kind of break through that gas
• 23:43
  lighting. Yeah. And that's why when people will
• 23:45
  ask
• 23:47
  Matt and myself, like, well, how do you
• 23:49
  know if alcohol is a real problem.
• 23:53
  And and you were mentioning, like, you guys
• 23:55
  agreed on a lot of the big stuff,
• 23:57
  but it was, like the little stuff and
• 23:58
  the day to day stuff and those day
• 24:00
  to day actions and interactions with
• 24:03
  the family.
• 24:04
  Like, those are the things that they may
• 24:07
  not you know, be big important stuff, but
• 24:09
  they're breaking down the the foundation of the
• 24:13
  family.
• 24:14
  So alcohol is directly influencing that. And I
• 24:17
  just wanna point that out because I think
• 24:18
  that a lot of people dismiss that. Like,
• 24:20
  well, it's not so bad. It's not so
• 24:21
  bad. It doesn't have to be major bad.
• 24:24
  But, I mean, if it's breaking up, you
• 24:26
  know, foundational pieces of your relationship and the
• 24:29
  family. And you see that they're so particular
• 24:31
  that nothing can please them.
• 24:33
  And that's that. Well, maybe a step. Part
• 24:36
  she said a part you said about,
• 24:38
  not being as good with the kids. Yeah
• 24:40
  I mean, that's
• 24:41
  That's gotta be just heartbreaking for you. Mh.
• 24:44
  I'm just think that... I just don't know.
• 24:46
  I just wanna point that out if you're,
• 24:47
  like, so many people can easily dismiss and
• 24:50
  and and then it gets gas lit back
• 24:52
  us. Well what's the stress of the business.
• 24:53
  Well, everything is stressful if you really let
• 24:55
  it get stressful.
• 24:57
  And and again, he was asking, will you
• 24:59
  do wanna know why I drink? No. Tell
• 25:00
  me, please share and open up because so
• 25:03
  many of the alcoholic or
• 25:06
  they... Or addicts. They just, you know, medicate
• 25:09
  away their pain and stress and they don't
• 25:11
  wanna open up and talk.
• 25:13
  So
• 25:14
  that's
• 25:16
  That's just a sucky situation. Did... Did Scott
• 25:18
  say what I would say a lot to
• 25:20
  Sherry, which is,
• 25:22
  you know, you said that he said you
• 25:24
  changed.
• 25:25
  I would tell Sherry, you know, used to
• 25:26
  drink with me, and you don't drink as
• 25:28
  much anymore. So I'm not... You know, my
• 25:30
  drinking hasn't changed. My drinking. I've always been
• 25:32
  a big drinker.
• 25:33
  And you're the 1 who who has pulled
• 25:36
  away and stopped. Did did you feel pressure
• 25:39
  like that?
• 25:43
  There was a little bit of that, like,
• 25:45
  like,
• 25:46
  used to... You used to drink too. We'd
• 25:49
  have fun together
• 25:50
  Yeah. And... But, you know, there just came
• 25:53
  a point where it wasn't fun anymore because...
• 25:57
  Yeah.
• 25:58
  You know, it wasn't my goal to drink
• 26:00
  until I passed out, which seemed to be
• 26:01
  your goal. And
• 26:03
  so so, yeah. I did hear some of
• 26:05
  that, but we didn't, you know, it does
• 26:07
  he couldn't quite
• 26:09
  do that because
• 26:10
  we didn't start out as big drinkers at
• 26:13
  either 1 of us.
• 26:16
  But
• 26:17
  how how did the relationship change
• 26:21
  with the kids? You
• 26:22
  mentioned that he wasn't as good to the
• 26:24
  kids
• 26:25
  but were were you worried about the kids?
• 26:29
  Yes. I was.
• 26:31
  I mean, it I mean, I mean, when
• 26:33
  they were little, he was great. And y
• 26:35
  they would...
• 26:36
  He would
• 26:37
  after
• 26:38
  they get home from school and he'd come
• 26:40
  out and wrestle on the floor with them
• 26:42
  and
• 26:43
  just
• 26:44
  playing out in the yard and doing all
• 26:46
  this stuff, but he just kinda stopped
• 26:48
  doing anything with him and it was any...
• 26:50
  Any... And it was like... Nothing they did
• 26:52
  was ever good enough. Too, which was really
• 26:55
  worrisome for me
• 26:57
  for their self esteem,
• 26:59
  because you want your parents to think you're
• 27:02
  good at things and and
• 27:04
  not a loser, I guess. But, yeah, I
• 27:06
  think he just... It just was...
• 27:08
  And they're good kids, and I and I
• 27:11
  would I would defend... Jump in to defend
• 27:13
  them, and then it was. You always take
• 27:15
  their side. Well.
• 27:17
  I guess because you're wrong.
• 27:19
  So
• 27:22
  because he just... You know, I say, like,
• 27:24
  with the...
• 27:25
  Even with... Because that was when 1 of
• 27:27
  the things was the voice started taking over
• 27:30
  mowing the lawn because
• 27:32
  nobody would you couldn't get service to stay
• 27:35
  because of how picky he was. So I
• 27:37
  don't make you guys fine. They're doing good.
• 27:40
  They're
• 27:41
  there. They're good kids. So
• 27:44
  So, of course, I defended them, and that...
• 27:46
  But then that became a
• 27:48
  point of contention too.
• 27:51
  So
• 27:52
  did the kids grow closer to you over
• 27:54
  this time? Like, did... Were you there shield?
• 27:57
  Did they kinda
• 27:58
  yeah and help to you?
• 28:00
  Yes. Especially... It might... Well my in the
• 28:02
  the boys were older, so they kinda
• 28:04
  went just... I mean, they were probably
• 28:07
  going on teenagers when when it started to
• 28:09
  get really bad. So they would just go
• 28:11
  away, you know, And the boys would just
• 28:13
  hang together.
• 28:15
  But they were you know, this go in
• 28:17
  their room or at a different part of
• 28:18
  the house that was
• 28:20
  not occupied by him. But my daughter really,
• 28:25
  well, she had trouble with, you know, not
• 28:27
  having consistency
• 28:29
  in the first place. So it really really
• 28:31
  bothered her and she would... Yeah. I was
• 28:34
  her
• 28:35
  her rock
• 28:36
  and
• 28:37
  he would all complain. She doesn't listen to
• 28:38
  me. I'm like, well, sometimes you're nonsensical.
• 28:42
  You, you know,
• 28:44
  It's hard to tell her... Yeah. She has
• 28:46
  to listen to ed when sometimes she's ranting
• 28:48
  about.
• 28:49
  I don't know. Stupid stuff. So
• 28:52
  Yeah. So she and she kinda I'm sure
• 28:54
  she could tell, you know, when it was
• 28:56
  he was too far gone, and she would
• 28:57
  just tell him no.
• 28:59
  And
• 29:00
  and it kinda carried on in other areas
• 29:02
  too where she probably should have been listening
• 29:04
  to him, but he like I said if
• 29:06
  it's not consistent
• 29:08
  Yeah. You can't really blame her. So...
• 29:10
  Oh, yeah.
• 29:12
  Did it did it get to the point
• 29:14
  where you started thinking about whether it was
• 29:17
  best to stay and keep keep going down
• 29:20
  this path or whether
• 29:22
  you know, leaving or divorce might be in
• 29:25
  your future? Did did you entertain those thoughts?
• 29:28
  Yeah. I think everybody that's in
• 29:30
  the situation and at least entertain those thoughts.
• 29:35
  It didn't seem...
• 29:37
  I I didn't wanna give up. I didn't...
• 29:39
  I wanted it to work and and
• 29:43
  he
• 29:44
  it was... When things did start to kinda
• 29:46
  get
• 29:47
  bad and bad and bad, then it would
• 29:49
  be... Okay. I'll quit now, and he would
• 29:50
  make a attempts.
• 29:52
  But it was never
• 29:53
  he never wanted to,
• 29:56
  like, get professional help and, actually, I... There...
• 29:58
  Well
• 29:59
  somewhat. I mean, he went to to... Through
• 30:02
  medical detox where he would at least get
• 30:04
  help for... But, you know, it might be
• 30:06
  just a couple days. And then
• 30:09
  he's coming home and it's
• 30:13
  hallucinations
• 30:14
  and
• 30:16
  just scary times. So
• 30:19
  but
• 30:23
  so especially but those times, I was even
• 30:25
  more afraid for the kids too,
• 30:28
  just because of what they were seeing, which
• 30:30
  was scaring me, so I'm sure they were
• 30:32
  terrified.
• 30:34
  And... But, like, III wanted it to work.
• 30:36
  I wanted to
• 30:38
  to stay better,
• 30:40
  but it
• 30:41
  just never got there.
• 30:43
  Did it become a predictable cycle? Like, if
• 30:46
  you would go to detox docs.
• 30:48
  I'm sure there was some relief for you
• 30:50
  during the couple of days while he was
• 30:51
  gone. But then,
• 30:54
  I mean, did... How did you balance hope
• 30:56
  with
• 30:57
  with pessimism because you've seen it before, Did
• 30:59
  you... When he would come back? Did you
• 31:02
  think of, but, you know, maybe we'll have
• 31:03
  a few days or a few weeks, and
• 31:05
  then it's gonna... We're gonna be off the
• 31:06
  rails again. Does that feel night.
• 31:08
  It it the the first time was really
• 31:11
  bad, and
• 31:13
  because that was, like 2 days Day detox,
• 31:15
  I think he made maybe a week or
• 31:16
  10 days. After he was out, and that
• 31:18
  was it.
• 31:21
  And then
• 31:22
  I think the the... At kind of the
• 31:24
  next time. I would... I said I'm... You
• 31:26
  can't come back
• 31:29
  here unless it's been a longer time and
• 31:31
  that he stayed in the hospital 5 days
• 31:33
  that time. And then
• 31:35
  he went or 6 months that time.
• 31:40
  So
• 31:43
  that... And that was great. It was...
• 31:46
  I thought,
• 31:48
  we were on the track to get better.
• 31:51
  And
• 31:53
  but it was just white knuckle sobriety. It
• 31:55
  wasn't
• 31:56
  even even just that, though it was still
• 31:58
  better because at least he wasn't going off
• 32:00
  our ranch and
• 32:02
  You, he was more present for me and
• 32:04
  the kids,
• 32:06
  but it was still not. Right, which I
• 32:09
  didn't expect it to be right right away.
• 32:11
  But at... But when he started, you know,
• 32:14
  I don't know, maybe 3 months in, started
• 32:16
  talking about Oh, 0, eventually, I'll be able
• 32:19
  to have a beer
• 32:20
  to grill out or have a beer on
• 32:22
  the weekends, or but it won't be like
• 32:25
  before.
• 32:27
  And as we all know that never works
• 32:29
  out.
• 32:30
  Yeah. So at 6 months, yeah, he
• 32:33
  just... It was within
• 32:35
  probably within 2 weeks, it was right back
• 32:37
  to
• 32:38
  just as bad if not worse than it
• 32:40
  had been before.
• 32:42
  So...
• 32:43
  Did... So you you said... Other than the
• 32:47
  professional help that he would get with detox.
• 32:48
  He didn't really have a program, No aa,
• 32:50
  no.
• 32:52
  No, rehab facility.
• 32:54
  Did he talk to you about what early
• 32:57
  sobriety was like during that 6 months? Did
• 32:59
  you talk about? The struggles or anything like
• 33:01
  that? Or was he pretty quite quite good?
• 33:03
  He... Yeah. He was pretty just stuck to
• 33:07
  himself,
• 33:10
  he kinda took took back up some of
• 33:12
  of his hobbies that, you know, he had
• 33:14
  stopped doing,
• 33:16
  because he's was really into plants and
• 33:19
  started kinda doing some of that stuff, but
• 33:21
  he didn't... He was just quiet. He didn't
• 33:22
  really talk to me about it. No. Yeah.
• 33:24
  He he would tell me it's not a
• 33:26
  big deal.
• 33:27
  Yeah.
• 33:28
  You know, it's it's not a big deal.
• 33:30
  I can do this.
• 33:31
  And I used to drink. I'm sober. Just
• 33:34
  kinda
• 33:35
  That's it. Yep. What it is. Yep. Boy
• 33:37
  that I do that a lot.
• 33:40
  I really would have liked to have
• 33:42
  Known, Scott, I think we had a lot
• 33:44
  in common.
• 33:45
  Well, it's was probably so hard that he
• 33:47
  wasn't opening up to you
• 33:49
  about the struggles when he was even drinking
• 33:51
  and saying, do you even wanna into why
• 33:53
  drink because you were talking about how you
• 33:55
  guys would go away for 2 weeks in
• 33:56
  the boundary waters in camp, and you had
• 33:58
  all these deep long conversations I know there
• 34:00
  was a writing that you shared with our
• 34:03
  group
• 34:04
  that
• 34:05
  still just touches me, but you guys had
• 34:08
  these really intense talks about, like, life and
• 34:11
  questioning the universe and things sort of like
• 34:13
  that. I'm sure, It's was probably really hard
• 34:16
  to be so shut off from him
• 34:19
  when the alcohol took hold and then even
• 34:21
  in this time of sobriety when he's white
• 34:23
  knuckle and you're, like, when I can be
• 34:25
  your partner and try to help, at least
• 34:27
  understand or you can get it off your
• 34:29
  chest. He's just still closed off.
• 34:31
  And again she lost very
• 34:34
  only.
• 34:35
  Yeah. I lost my best friend,
• 34:38
  long before,
• 34:41
  Long before the alcohol took,
• 34:43
  I lost my best friend.
• 34:45
  Yeah.
• 34:47
  Yeah. Took took him before he died for
• 34:50
  sure.
• 34:51
  Wow. Yep.
• 34:53
  So what what was that, like for you?
• 34:57
  When we when we talk with people about,
• 35:00
  you know, emotional detachment,
• 35:04
  sometimes people read about it or they listen
• 35:06
  to what attachment is on a podcast, and
• 35:08
  it's something that they try to implement.
• 35:10
  For Sherry,
• 35:12
  that wasn't what happened. She
• 35:14
  she pulled the away to protect herself to
• 35:16
  protect our kids and because she had tried
• 35:18
  everything else. And
• 35:20
  and it it was kind of a latched
• 35:22
  last ditch effort.
• 35:24
  Did was was that? Kinda of what happened
• 35:27
  for you? Did you did you set out?
• 35:30
  I'm gonna intentionally detach? Because I've learned what
• 35:32
  this is or did
• 35:34
  or did it just evolve?
• 35:36
  No. I... Yeah. It didn't I didn't
• 35:38
  learn the term detachment, but I did kind
• 35:40
  of learn a little bit more. I...
• 35:43
  Started to research a little bit more
• 35:45
  just about
• 35:47
  alcohol use disorder
• 35:49
  in general and, you know, kind of
• 35:52
  different things from different places like, that I
• 35:54
  knew that it wasn't me. And none this
• 35:56
  is my fault even though I might be
• 35:58
  getting blamed with it, it's not my fault,
• 36:00
  and
• 36:01
  kind of once I got to that mindset,
• 36:03
  I was like, I'm not taking the blame
• 36:05
  for this anymore.
• 36:07
  And
• 36:08
  and and and that I need to protect
• 36:10
  myself from that bling,
• 36:13
  and that was kind of, I guess, you
• 36:15
  know, the the start of my detachment was
• 36:19
  I'm gonna walk away. If you're gonna talk
• 36:21
  like that to me, I'm walking away.
• 36:24
  If you're gonna try to start to fight
• 36:25
  with me, I'm not dealing with you, we
• 36:27
  can talk when you're over. And so that
• 36:29
  was kind of how
• 36:31
  my...
• 36:32
  You know, I didn't know I guess that
• 36:33
  it was called detachment.
• 36:36
  But that was just... I'm not dealing with
• 36:38
  this. I've done dealing with it, and you
• 36:40
  keep saying you're cutting back and you're gonna
• 36:42
  stop. And nothing ever happens with it, and
• 36:46
  I just not gonna take it anymore. I'm
• 36:48
  not gonna take the blame. I'm not gonna
• 36:50
  deal with your moods.
• 36:52
  I'm just gonna go over here and do
• 36:53
  my own thing, and you can do you.
• 36:56
  I mean, if... And, you know, if funny
• 36:57
  thing, he... You know, like, some... I'd I'd
• 37:00
  started taking trips with my best friend, and
• 37:03
  it was funny because it was that it
• 37:04
  was his idea because he was the... As
• 37:07
  time went on. He became more and more
• 37:08
  of a home body. He didn't wanna go
• 37:10
  do anything
• 37:11
  because he wanted... That was too far away
• 37:13
  from the refrigerator and the beer.
• 37:16
  So
• 37:18
  he suggested, you know, both your friend go
• 37:20
  on a vacation. And so at at first,
• 37:22
  I was like, nah, I'm not gonna do
• 37:24
  that. You come with me and No. No.
• 37:26
  I'm not going. You might as will go
• 37:27
  with her. So
• 37:29
  it was his idea. And then when we
• 37:31
  started making a plan,
• 37:33
  He was, like, I can't believe you're doing
• 37:34
  this. Mh
• 37:36
  I can't believe you're leaving me.
• 37:38
  And I'm like, this is your
• 37:41
  have an idea in the first place, what
• 37:43
  you mean, and he's like, well, I didn't
• 37:45
  know you were really gonna do it, Like,
• 37:47
  okay. Well, I am.
• 37:49
  And,
• 37:50
  you know,
• 37:51
  So, yeah,
• 37:53
  It it... And it saved my sanity. It
• 37:55
  really did to have
• 37:57
  things to look forward to where I could
• 37:59
  get a break from it.
• 38:01
  Because I think that's really important.
• 38:02
  Just...
• 38:04
  Because I I wasn't ready to leave.
• 38:06
  I didn't... I didn't wanna give up hope.
• 38:10
  And
• 38:11
  I had to have some kind of recharge.
• 38:14
  So...
• 38:15
  Yeah. I mean, it's self preservation. I mean,
• 38:19
  everything that you're describing,
• 38:22
  I I think you made all the right
• 38:24
  moves
• 38:25
  what's what's interesting about when you reach the
• 38:27
  end of your open, you need that recharge
• 38:30
  is you have to do it for yourself.
• 38:33
  And it sounds like that's exactly what you
• 38:35
  were doing. You were doing it because you
• 38:37
  needed it.
• 38:38
  But kind of a as a a side
• 38:41
  case from that, it can have
• 38:43
  really 1 of 2 impacts on the drinker,
• 38:46
  it can
• 38:48
  scare us into sobriety. To what I've long
• 38:50
  said is that Sherry detachment was part of
• 38:53
  the pain con con,
• 38:55
  that resulted in my sobriety. In addition to
• 38:57
  her detachment, there was also
• 38:59
  depression and anxiety
• 39:01
  that
• 39:02
  I finally started to understand. You know, I
• 39:04
  was using
• 39:05
  alcohol to medicate the depression and anxiety. So
• 39:07
  it took me a long time to understand
• 39:09
  that while it would alleviate
• 39:11
  the depression and anxiety in the short term.
• 39:13
  It was also the cause of the
• 39:16
  depression and anxiety in the long term. And
• 39:18
  so all these things kinda came together
• 39:21
  to cause a realization for me that sobriety
• 39:24
  was my only choice.
• 39:26
  That isn't always how it works.
• 39:28
  As you detached,
• 39:30
  Did he
• 39:32
  did it did the frequency with which he
• 39:35
  would try periods of sobriety increase?
• 39:37
  Or did he did he drink more?
• 39:41
  Or did it not affect him at all?
• 39:42
  Did? Did he just continue on aggression unrelated
• 39:45
  to your detachment?
• 39:46
  I think at first, it kind of...
• 39:49
  At least it it it
• 39:53
  caused him to say.
• 39:55
  He was going to be cutting back.
• 39:57
  I don't know that he ever really did
• 39:59
  all that much.
• 40:02
  But then as as time on, it seemed
• 40:03
  like it was more just his an excuse
• 40:06
  to isolate
• 40:07
  and drink.
• 40:09
  And
• 40:10
  and kind of again, kind of blame shift.
• 40:13
  Well,
• 40:14
  you're not there for me.
• 40:16
  So it was it was kind of a,
• 40:17
  you know, a pity party. I'm gonna drink
• 40:20
  then
• 40:21
  because you're not
• 40:22
  paying the attention to me that I want
• 40:24
  you to.
• 40:26
  So, yeah. I didn't I don't I don't
• 40:28
  think he had any more
• 40:30
  serious
• 40:32
  attempts at sobriety
• 40:35
  after the, I started really detach.
• 40:39
  No.
• 40:40
  Yeah. What 1 of the biggest lessons I
• 40:42
  had to learn
• 40:44
  was that if I wasn't someone Sherry wanted
• 40:46
  to be around,
• 40:47
  just because we're married, just because we had
• 40:49
  this piece of paper that said we're bonded
• 40:51
  together. Doesn't mean I can blame her the...
• 40:54
  For the fact that she does wanna be
• 40:55
  around me.
• 40:56
  I I... And I didn't understand this in
• 40:59
  active addiction or an early sobriety. This this
• 41:01
  is something that took me years to understand.
• 41:03
  But
• 41:04
  what I needed to do in the moment
• 41:06
  even though I was incapable was become a
• 41:08
  person that she wanted to be around, not
• 41:10
  beat her over the head with her marriage
• 41:12
  license because she had agreed to be around
• 41:14
  me. And I mean, that is such a
• 41:17
  common
• 41:18
  a common thing. I'm drinking more because
• 41:20
  you're not hanging out with me or because
• 41:22
  you're not having sex with me or because
• 41:24
  you're not nice to me.
• 41:26
  Well, the be a person that it would
• 41:28
  be good to be nice to, and
• 41:30
  and and that'll come, you know, that... You'll
• 41:33
  get what you want if you deserve it,
• 41:34
  basically.
• 41:35
  And
• 41:37
  you know, we... That that is an elusive
• 41:39
  concept
• 41:40
  to us alcoholic certainly during
• 41:43
  and even early this society.
• 41:45
  Makes too much sense. Yeah.
• 41:47
  Yeah.
• 41:48
  It really does.
• 41:50
  Okay. Can you
• 41:52
  walk us through the end as the progression
• 41:55
  continued and
• 41:57
  and his alcohol took him.
• 42:01
  Well,
• 42:03
  got it's
• 42:05
  stop.
• 42:06
  Sorry. It is thunder here.
• 42:09
  Something barking at thunder.
• 42:14
  Yeah.
• 42:16
  It seemed like it went I was for
• 42:17
  a really long time because I mean,
• 42:20
  he was
• 42:22
  lost a lot, a lot a lot of
• 42:23
  weight.
• 42:25
  He
• 42:27
  really didn't eat
• 42:29
  anymore,
• 42:30
  and that was, you know, was,
• 42:32
  and again, kind of
• 42:34
  part of my detachment was
• 42:36
  I'm gonna cook, but we're gonna eat. And
• 42:38
  if you eat u eat, and if you
• 42:39
  don't, you don't. And I, you know, or
• 42:41
  if you're passed out, at meal times. I'll
• 42:44
  try to wake you up, but I... You
• 42:45
  know, what am I supposed to do here,
• 42:47
  you know, put ice cubes down your back.
• 42:49
  Even then I don't know if you were
• 42:50
  to up. But, but, yeah. So... And
• 42:54
  I
• 42:55
  he blamed on, you know, I have stomach
• 42:57
  issues and all this and that, but it
• 42:59
  was just... I think his
• 43:01
  his alcohol
• 43:02
  increased, and his body couldn't even handle the
• 43:06
  food. I mean, he... If he did eat
• 43:08
  there was times where he couldn't keep things
• 43:10
  down.
• 43:12
  So I think a lot of it was
• 43:13
  he would just avoid it because he knew
• 43:14
  he wasn't gonna be able to
• 43:16
  digest it anyway, because his
• 43:19
  body was kind of rejecting anything except, you
• 43:21
  know, he was able to drink the beer
• 43:23
  and not not throw that up, but anything
• 43:25
  else was kind of
• 43:28
  not not capable
• 43:30
  processing for whatever reason.
• 43:32
  And the man never went to the doctor.
• 43:33
  So I really don't know
• 43:35
  you know, what that meant
• 43:38
  as far as medically, but I could just
• 43:40
  see it happen, I mean, he was
• 43:43
  it it it seems
• 43:45
  as a non medical professional. It seems pretty
• 43:47
  clear that the
• 43:48
  the alcohol,
• 43:50
  he was drinking his calories and that the
• 43:53
  the digestive issues that he had were caused
• 43:55
  by the alcohol? But could he see that
• 43:57
  at all or were they 2 separate things
• 43:59
  to him?
• 44:00
  No. Separate because he always had like, acid
• 44:03
  reflux ge, you know, issues so he would
• 44:05
  just blame it on that at his stomach.
• 44:06
  It was never
• 44:08
  No. It was never because of the alcohol
• 44:10
  It was a pre preexisting
• 44:11
  condition, you know, Before alcohol. So no
• 44:14
  of
• 44:15
  of Cognitive dissonance. It's amazing. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
• 44:20
  So... But, yeah... So he... His health kept.
• 44:23
  I mean, he was
• 44:24
  just getting frail almost almost. So he was
• 44:26
  probably... I think the last time, I knew
• 44:28
  how much he weighed. He normal. He's 05:10
• 44:32
  like, probably 1 8... Between 1 80 and
• 44:34
  1 90 was in the kind of a
• 44:35
  normal weight for him, and he was 01:51
• 44:39
  40
• 44:40
  the last time I knew.
• 44:42
  So
• 44:43
  just kind of wasting the wasting away.
• 44:47
  And
• 44:48
  so, you know, that kind of, like I
• 44:50
  said, seemed like over maybe a year or
• 44:52
  2 even where it kept getting worse and
• 44:54
  worse and worse.
• 44:58
  And then
• 45:02
  like I said, he never would go to
• 45:03
  a doctor, so I I don't really know
• 45:05
  exactly all those going out him. But Know,
• 45:08
  I can kinda go to the last,
• 45:11
  last weekend,
• 45:13
  because he he would kind of, like, when
• 45:15
  he when he was getting sick and sometimes
• 45:17
  that would kind of make him go into
• 45:20
  the D too because
• 45:22
  there was times where he couldn't even keep.
• 45:24
  You know, the beer down, and then it
• 45:26
  would kinda send him into withdrawals
• 45:28
  and that, you know, it it 1 of
• 45:30
  the withdrawal symptoms is throwing up. So it
• 45:33
  just, like, he couldn't
• 45:35
  he couldn't manage that, you know,
• 45:38
  with the
• 45:39
  with issues he was having.
• 45:41
  So there it was a... I think, it
• 45:44
  was a Sunday when he was
• 45:46
  sick, and he... It was always the flu,
• 45:48
  so I don't know if it really was
• 45:50
  the flu or if it was something else,
• 45:52
  But in any case, he was he's was
• 45:54
  not doing well,
• 45:57
  and
• 45:58
  it was kinda nursing him all day Sunday,
• 46:01
  and into Sunday night and overnight, I might
• 46:04
  have slept an hour or 2. Just trying
• 46:05
  to... Because he was I'm steady on his
• 46:07
  feet, so I didn't wanna, like, up walking
• 46:09
  around by himself.
• 46:11
  And
• 46:14
  he was just really ill.
• 46:17
  And
• 46:18
  also
• 46:19
  cognitive
• 46:20
  seemed
• 46:22
  not right, also,
• 46:25
  I'm just not thinking right.
• 46:28
  And
• 46:29
  So we did that all, you know, pretty
• 46:30
  Sunday all of gate into Monday
• 46:33
  and
• 46:34
  did you suggest did you suggest medical help
• 46:37
  for him? I know Oh, yes. Know him.
• 46:39
  Rejects it. Right Yeah. Okay. Correct. I begged
• 46:41
  and pleaded, and, I know from past experience
• 46:44
  but he didn't have to go if I
• 46:46
  called.
• 46:47
  He could just tell him no. I don't
• 46:48
  need to go. I mean, they might come
• 46:49
  and check him out at the house, but
• 46:51
  he's not... They're not gonna force him into
• 46:53
  an do. So
• 46:55
  I kinda knew it was
• 46:57
  futile to to try to force him.
• 47:01
  But I, you know,
• 47:03
  all all night all day on Monday. Well,
• 47:06
  Monday he seemed to start to feel better
• 47:08
  on Monday. So I, you know, I wasn't
• 47:10
  quite as worried.
• 47:12
  He's was still a little un steady on
• 47:13
  his feet. We found a walker that we
• 47:14
  had at the house he was using that,
• 47:17
  then he was able to... He was, know,
• 47:20
  able to, like, drink water and and sew
• 47:22
  it and keep it down.
• 47:24
  So I thought he was kinda bouncing back.
• 47:27
  And
• 47:28
  09:00 that night after a bed been up
• 47:30
  pretty much the whole night before? I said
• 47:33
  I got... I gotta go to bed. Are
• 47:34
  you coming to bed? Yeah. I'll be there
• 47:36
  in a few. So
• 47:38
  I went to bed.
• 47:40
  Next thing I knew it was midnight threw
• 47:42
  on the light in the room.
• 47:44
  And
• 47:47
  was going through to the bathroom and I
• 47:49
  was, like, 8 hon come into bed. Like,
• 47:51
  yep, I'll be there in a minute. I
• 47:53
  said, okay, babe. See in a few, and
• 47:55
  I fell back to sleep.
• 47:57
  And
• 47:59
  the next thing I knew was
• 48:02
  my oldest son
• 48:05
  who his bedroom was in the basement. He
• 48:08
  was screaming
• 48:09
  from the kitchen.
• 48:11
  Mom, mom,
• 48:13
  come quick. I'm gonna call 911.
• 48:16
  So
• 48:17
  I'm up out of bed.
• 48:20
  And ran out to the kitchen,
• 48:24
  and
• 48:24
  he's laying on the floor.
• 48:30
  He had his
• 48:31
  hands,
• 48:33
  fist both hands fist up by his chest.
• 48:38
  And
• 48:39
  and knew... That was when he hit... When
• 48:41
  he seated, that was typical.
• 48:45
  Of what he would look like.
• 48:47
  And I ran up to him,
• 48:51
  and knee down, and he was cold.
• 48:55
  And knew was gone.
• 48:58
  And I just was screaming and no. No.
• 49:01
  No. Is
• 49:03
  the last of the hope.
• 49:06
  Died there.
• 49:09
  And my son's on the phone
• 49:12
  with the 911 operator and
• 49:15
  my daughter and son, other son came out,
• 49:19
  of their bedrooms, and I asked him to
• 49:22
  take her back through her bedroom, I didn't
• 49:23
  want her to.
• 49:26
  Have that memory, although she still does.
• 49:30
  And then
• 49:32
  my son put them his
• 49:33
  meal down and started doing Cpr
• 49:36
  compressions.
• 49:37
  That's it, oh god. And he's gone and
• 49:39
  he's like, I know, mom. I know. Just
• 49:41
  go. Just go.
• 49:43
  Because it was that with the worst.
• 49:46
  There was nothing.
• 49:47
  Nothing he could do, but he was following
• 49:50
  their directions.
• 49:54
  And,
• 49:56
  yep. That was the
• 49:59
  first day of this half of my life.
• 50:01
  So,
• 50:05
  I just... I went out
• 50:07
  tried to comfort my daughter told her to
• 50:09
  call our friend.
• 50:13
  Just started calling people. It was just it
• 50:15
  was
• 50:17
  it was, like, time was rushing and standing
• 50:20
  still all at the same time.
• 50:24
  Just unbelievable.
• 50:27
  No.
• 50:28
  Wow. Even with the
• 50:30
  the warning signs and how
• 50:33
  he had been the weekend leading up and
• 50:35
  you pleading for him to get medical health,
• 50:37
  you you still don't think it's gonna happen.
• 50:39
  You still can't even imagine that it could
• 50:41
  happen.
• 50:42
  No. No.
• 50:44
  And it was it was... Yeah. I don't...
• 50:47
  I mean, in those
• 50:48
  hours from when I went to bed that
• 50:51
  night,
• 50:52
  I got that call in the morning.
• 50:54
  It was
• 50:57
  just the evidence of a chaotic mind was
• 50:59
  just everywhere.
• 51:02
  A package of nuts from the freezers,
• 51:05
  filled all over the kitchen floor.
• 51:08
  The dish washing soap was in the refrigerator
• 51:10
  refrigerator
• 51:11
  there was a butane torch out on the
• 51:14
  on the counter. There was some ramen, which
• 51:17
  he hated
• 51:19
  like, on a in the in us on
• 51:21
  a pan by the this, you, on a
• 51:23
  stove, it was just...
• 51:25
  And we continued to find just
• 51:28
  weird stuff throughout the house in the garage,
• 51:30
  he was just everywhere
• 51:33
  leaving chaos behind, and, you know, what I'm
• 51:36
  what a metaphor.
• 51:39
  Yeah.
• 51:41
  Yeah.
• 51:42
  Absolutely evidence that
• 51:44
  even when he still had a few breaths
• 51:46
  left, he wasn't he wasn't with you. He
• 51:48
  wasn't with us.
• 51:50
  Amazing. Yeah. So sad.
• 51:53
  So you mentioned,
• 51:55
  you know, making phone calls.
• 51:57
  What was
• 51:59
  besides what's happening in your house besides
• 52:02
  you and your kids.
• 52:03
  What does other family know,
• 52:07
  you know, beforehand? Like, was this a shock
• 52:10
  or obviously, it's a shock book to what
• 52:12
  degree was it a shock to the rest
• 52:14
  of the family to find out that's got
• 52:16
  it passed.
• 52:19
  I think it was a shock to everyone.
• 52:23
  My
• 52:24
  side of the family
• 52:27
  didn't really
• 52:29
  know anything
• 52:30
  as far as
• 52:32
  his drinking problem.
• 52:34
  I still... I mean, when when my my
• 52:36
  mom and sister lived closed there, about, 20
• 52:38
  miles, 20 minutes away. And they were over
• 52:41
  and
• 52:43
  Karen said what happened, and I just said
• 52:45
  he drinks too much, and he would never
• 52:47
  go to the doctor,
• 52:48
  and I kinda left it at that. Which
• 52:51
  is true and
• 52:55
  yeah. So... And I I don't know how
• 52:58
  much anybody else knows or has gas. I
• 53:00
  guess they really haven't talked to them about
• 53:02
  it.
• 53:04
  It was... But, you know, it's cause of
• 53:06
  death was was a head injury due to
• 53:08
  an all seizure with was a head injury
• 53:10
  was the kind of the official
• 53:12
  cause of death.
• 53:15
  And
• 53:16
  as far as his family members,
• 53:19
  he has he's 1 of
• 53:22
  for there's 5 boys. So there's 4 of
• 53:24
  brothers
• 53:25
  and
• 53:27
  2 of them too... I I haven't... 1
• 53:29
  of them were kinda that in
• 53:32
  not on speaking terms,
• 53:35
  but of the other 3, 2 of them
• 53:37
  new and 1 of them was shocked that
• 53:39
  that'd be had a drinking problem at all.
• 53:43
  But they all know now.
• 53:45
  Or heat. The 1 that didn't know knows
• 53:47
  now too. So...
• 53:52
  But didn't... Yeah. Did they did they know
• 53:54
  because
• 53:55
  he had con in them or did they
• 53:57
  know because they had seen him at family
• 53:59
  gatherings?
• 54:01
  Because of... Yeah, How his his behavior,
• 54:05
  1 of them both 2 of 1 that
• 54:07
  we're not speaking With and and 1 other
• 54:10
  he we worked with for a while. Worked
• 54:12
  for us.
• 54:13
  So I think he kinda
• 54:15
  caught on at, you know, that point
• 54:19
  and, yeah. And what what his brothers told
• 54:21
  me, I could always tell where I talked
• 54:22
  him on the phone
• 54:24
  if he, you know, just be a he
• 54:26
  would, you know, kinda repeat himself or ask
• 54:28
  questions that he'd already asked or those kind
• 54:30
  of things. So it was just catching clues
• 54:33
  that way.
• 54:35
  But... Yeah, it...
• 54:37
  But the other 1 that you talked to
• 54:38
  all the time didn't
• 54:40
  didn't catch on at all. So
• 54:43
  probably that I closest to.
• 54:46
  The est with the 1 brother that was
• 54:50
  not post
• 54:51
  modem. Like, that wasn't that... He... You know,
• 54:53
  he wasn't blaming you for Scott's death. That
• 54:55
  was something that happened prior to him passing
• 54:58
  her. Yeah. That was that was... He was
• 55:01
  a prior business partner in the second business,
• 55:03
  and, yeah. We bought him out and that
• 55:05
  didn't, I guess, didn't
• 55:08
  Yeah. There's something totally different. Sure. Well, the
• 55:11
  reason I...
• 55:12
  Yeah. The the reason I ask and the
• 55:14
  reason I think that is important is because
• 55:15
  it's heartbreaking
• 55:17
  But
• 55:18
  we've seen a number of cases where,
• 55:22
  after the the drinker dies,
• 55:25
  the
• 55:26
  there's a big rift in the family between
• 55:29
  the in laws and the the surviving partner.
• 55:34
  What has your experience been, you know, save
• 55:37
  that 1 relationship that has nothing to do
• 55:39
  with Scott.
• 55:41
  Do you feel any blame coming your way
• 55:44
  or are they supportive?
• 55:46
  They're very supportive. I don't feel any blame
• 55:49
  at all? Good.
• 55:51
  Good.
• 55:53
  That's that's great to hear.
• 55:56
  So no blame
• 55:58
  but
• 56:00
  1 of the things that's
• 56:02
  really tragic about
• 56:05
  situations
• 56:06
  where a drinker passes away is
• 56:09
  you've explained your story and you've explained it
• 56:12
  at a great level of detail
• 56:14
  Sherry, and I have known you for quite
• 56:15
  a while now. But even if you're just
• 56:17
  a first time listening hearing the story for
• 56:19
  the first time,
• 56:21
  I think the unanimous opinion of our listeners
• 56:24
  would be that you absolutely did everything you
• 56:26
  could,
• 56:28
  you were trying your best to your family,
• 56:30
  but also to hold your family together,
• 56:33
  you were urging him to seek help,
• 56:36
  you were being as helpful as you could
• 56:38
  be as well. And then you ultimately did
• 56:41
  the right thing
• 56:43
  by detach and protecting yourself and protecting your
• 56:45
  kids,
• 56:47
  and
• 56:48
  you know,
• 56:49
  and and finding that ability to recharge and
• 56:52
  connect with a friend when you could and
• 56:55
  and do... So basically,
• 56:57
  you know, you're putting the situation that's
• 57:00
  un nav, but you still do an excellent
• 57:03
  job of navigating it. Even with all that
• 57:06
  said, and I think you know that. I
• 57:07
  think you know everything I just said on
• 57:09
  a conscious level.
• 57:11
  Do you still have feelings of
• 57:14
  you know, not just grief. Obviously, obviously, you
• 57:18
  got grief, but do you have feelings of
• 57:20
  guilt
• 57:22
  with... And now that Scott's gone?
• 57:26
  Yes.
• 57:28
  As
• 57:30
  much as I can... I tell myself, all
• 57:32
  the things that you just said,
• 57:35
  there's still
• 57:37
  some guilt.
• 57:41
  I you know, I don't feel like I
• 57:43
  gave up on him, but in some ways,
• 57:44
  I guess I did.
• 57:47
  The hope was still there, but
• 57:51
  it wasn't
• 57:52
  as bright
• 57:54
  as it started out.
• 57:57
  But yeah... There's guilt of the the thoughts
• 57:59
  I used to have, of, you know, some...
• 58:01
  This something needs to give.
• 58:03
  1 of us has gotta go.
• 58:06
  Maybe,
• 58:06
  it's just everything is so painful that I
• 58:09
  just want want something
• 58:11
  to end it.
• 58:14
  Whatever that means. And there, you know, it's
• 58:16
  not a fun thought to have, but maybe
• 58:18
  1 of us should die, and then
• 58:21
  maybe that, you know, it would make it
• 58:23
  better.
• 58:23
  And they didn't.
• 58:26
  But but the thoughts happened, and III don't
• 58:28
  think there's
• 58:30
  a lot of us that that probably I
• 58:32
  haven't had that leading thought with the thick
• 58:34
  of it, but it still doesn't make you
• 58:37
  feel real good when it
• 58:38
  actually happens, You know? Yeah.
• 58:41
  But and then all go through, could I...
• 58:43
  Is there some way... Some I should could
• 58:46
  have said that would have made him
• 58:48
  get helped.
• 58:50
  Even just that day go into the hospital
• 58:52
  Is there anything more It could have done.
• 58:54
  So you have those thoughts and feelings and
• 58:57
  and it does have... There is some guilt
• 58:59
  even though I can
• 59:02
  rationalize myself that
• 59:05
  I don't need to feel guilty,
• 59:08
  but it's still there.
• 59:09
  Yeah.
• 59:11
  Yeah. That
• 59:12
  You know, unfortunately,
• 59:14
  Sherry, and I have been doing this long
• 59:16
  enough that we
• 59:18
  we're very familiar with about a dozen cases
• 59:21
  where
• 59:23
  the alcoholic dies
• 59:25
  and we've gotten to no partners and
• 59:28
  in that situation. And I I have to
• 59:30
  say
• 59:31
  that
• 59:33
  the
• 59:34
  the feeling of guilt afterwards even though it
• 59:37
  is not, and I don't mean this is
• 59:39
  an insult, and I don't think you'll take
• 59:40
  it that But even though it's not logical.
• 59:42
  Even though as an outside observer, you look
• 59:44
  and say, what on earth is she feeling
• 59:46
  guilty about, she gave her everything to this
• 59:50
  person in this relationship and this family.
• 59:54
  It's it's still universal. Even though it doesn't
• 59:56
  make any sense still universal. And the other
• 59:58
  thing that I wanna
• 1:00:00
  just
• 1:00:01
  drive... The point I wanna drive home.
• 1:00:04
  You mentioned those feelings of something's gotta change.
• 1:00:07
  What if what if 1 of us just
• 1:00:09
  died,
• 1:00:09
  that is also
• 1:00:11
  a very universal
• 1:00:13
  feeling among the loved ones of alcoholic. And
• 1:00:16
  it's 1 of those things that you keep
• 1:00:18
  hidden away and you think
• 1:00:20
  I can't let anyone know that I'm... I've
• 1:00:22
  entertain these thoughts. Not that you ever gonna
• 1:00:24
  act dot, You know, nothing nothing like that,
• 1:00:26
  but even that the thought crosses your mind,
• 1:00:29
  because you're in so much pain. And I
• 1:00:30
  think that's important for the drinkers
• 1:00:33
  that listen to this podcast to understand when
• 1:00:36
  you're making rules. And you're trying to figure
• 1:00:39
  it out and, oh, I'm gonna cut back,
• 1:00:41
  and and I'm only gonna drink beer and
• 1:00:43
  I'm not gonna drink hard liquor.
• 1:00:46
  I think for most of us myself, 1000
• 1:00:49
  percent included. I didn't understand the pain I
• 1:00:51
  was putting Sherry and my family through.
• 1:00:53
  I mean, here we are. I'm 7 and
• 1:00:55
  a half months... Yeah. That much. 7 and
• 1:00:57
  a half years sober,
• 1:00:59
  and
• 1:01:00
  we're still... It just deep
• 1:01:03
  in a, a difficult situation with 1 of
• 1:01:06
  our kids who is really struggling
• 1:01:09
  with
• 1:01:10
  the childhood
• 1:01:11
  that was experienced. And so...
• 1:01:14
  And I had no idea. I thought, yeah.
• 1:01:15
  I drink too much sometimes. I gotta I
• 1:01:17
  gotta fix this.
• 1:01:18
  But the the thoughts and the feelings that
• 1:01:22
  you have now, now that he's past are
• 1:01:24
  so similar to the thoughts and feelings, other
• 1:01:26
  people in that situation of hat. And just
• 1:01:28
  this idea that
• 1:01:30
  you occasionally had thoughts of if 1 of
• 1:01:33
  us would die, it would... Maybe it would
• 1:01:35
  be better. That is
• 1:01:37
  you're not alone. You're in that's so so
• 1:01:40
  common. I mean, you felt that way sometimes
• 1:01:42
  sherry. Right? Yeah. I was like, yeah. Something
• 1:01:44
  big. Something big has got to change to
• 1:01:46
  wake him up, You know, whether it's to
• 1:01:49
  me, or, like, an illness or cancer or
• 1:01:52
  something, like, and you've wanna go there, but
• 1:01:54
  that's what happens.
• 1:01:55
  Because you're, like, there's nothing that I'm saying
• 1:01:59
  on a day to day basis and he
• 1:02:00
  never had a necessarily a rock bottom that
• 1:02:03
  was tragic enough or didn't have a Dui
• 1:02:06
  that he had to do, you know, ahead
• 1:02:08
  of his license taken away for a while
• 1:02:10
  and have to experience that pain. Nothing
• 1:02:13
  nothing bad was really
• 1:02:15
  dramatic enough to make him make that change.
• 1:02:17
  And that's
• 1:02:19
  it came from the detachment and his anxiety
• 1:02:22
  and depression it had to come from within
• 1:02:25
  himself.
• 1:02:26
  I was gonna ask... Like, because I know
• 1:02:29
  that
• 1:02:30
  so many of these deaths are labeled
• 1:02:34
  that have
• 1:02:35
  Their death certificate has nothing to do with
• 1:02:38
  alcohol. Yeah. My brother, he was my ex
• 1:02:40
  brother all the time, a heart attack.
• 1:02:43
  Was
• 1:02:44
  he drank and smoked cigarettes to his death.
• 1:02:47
  You know, nothing was ever
• 1:02:50
  ever recorded. My sister left him because of
• 1:02:52
  that. She could not just watch him waste
• 1:02:54
  away, and it was sucking her life.
• 1:02:57
  Away too.
• 1:02:59
  But was there ever talk in
• 1:03:01
  the autopsy of getting a blood alcohol level
• 1:03:04
  or was he just so sick that he
• 1:03:06
  wasn't able to keep anything down then it
• 1:03:08
  was showed?
• 1:03:09
  Yeah. I'm not... I... I... I'd have to
• 1:03:11
  go back and look, but there was mention
• 1:03:12
  of it
• 1:03:14
  on the ata autopsy,
• 1:03:16
  I think it was called an underlying
• 1:03:18
  like, underlying alcohol
• 1:03:21
  use was with how it was labeled. So
• 1:03:25
  so there is mention, but I think the
• 1:03:26
  main
• 1:03:27
  thing was the... Was, like, a traumatic brain
• 1:03:29
  injury to a fall,
• 1:03:32
  then I think some... I think that's where
• 1:03:33
  they may be... There was some... There was
• 1:03:35
  mention of it, but it wasn't, like,
• 1:03:38
  that's what Killing was not.
• 1:03:40
  Yeah. And and when the deaths and, you
• 1:03:42
  know, it's not that you wanna have the
• 1:03:44
  shock factor
• 1:03:45
  of the amount of deaths that are
• 1:03:47
  you know, calculated
• 1:03:49
  annually by alcohol. Like, it's easy to say,
• 1:03:52
  oh, it's not nearly as many. But you
• 1:03:54
  know that so many of that, you know,
• 1:03:57
  that the fall happened, probably because he was
• 1:03:59
  having a seizure
• 1:04:00
  because of the alcohol and then we can't
• 1:04:02
  really account for that. What's a really important
• 1:04:05
  point. You know?
• 1:04:07
  Melanie knows, we know
• 1:04:09
  because we're in. But but, you know, the
• 1:04:11
  the the causes of death to reported on
• 1:04:14
  death certificates
• 1:04:15
  range from cancer to heart attack to traumatic
• 1:04:19
  brain injury to a whole host of other
• 1:04:21
  things. It's not
• 1:04:22
  It's not like with smoking and lung cancer
• 1:04:25
  that direct correlation. There's literally dozens of causes
• 1:04:28
  of death that that the the people closest
• 1:04:31
  to the person really know it was alcohol.
• 1:04:33
  And it the the death certificate to my
• 1:04:35
  knowledge never says alcohol. I guess if it
• 1:04:37
  was acute
• 1:04:38
  alcohol poisoning, but that's
• 1:04:41
  It almost never says Yeah. Alcohol.
• 1:04:44
  That is tragic. That's a part of the
• 1:04:46
  tragic story. Yeah. And it's not that... I
• 1:04:48
  wanna have that shock factor, but it's just
• 1:04:50
  the way that our society
• 1:04:52
  makes it seem like it's just such a
• 1:04:55
  benign substance Yeah. To put into your body
• 1:04:57
  and just, you know, on a daily basis.
• 1:05:00
  And even in the beginning of your story,
• 1:05:02
  like, it was kind of probably shocking for
• 1:05:04
  you looking back, realizing
• 1:05:06
  his first seizure, and you didn't know how
• 1:05:08
  much he was drinking, but the amount of
• 1:05:10
  years that really was...
• 1:05:12
  That it seemed like it was a short
• 1:05:13
  amount of time.
• 1:05:15
  Before he experiences for seizure.
• 1:05:18
  It
• 1:05:18
  shocked was very shocking. Right? Yeah. And and
• 1:05:22
  I don't you know, if he was extra
• 1:05:24
  sensitive because... Or that's just could happen to
• 1:05:27
  anybody but, yeah, Just... As far as either
• 1:05:29
  he hit it really well. How much he
• 1:05:31
  was thinking it really wasn't that much, but
• 1:05:32
  it went from that to 0 and that
• 1:05:34
  was enough
• 1:05:36
  to cause it. So... And, you know. Yeah.
• 1:05:39
  It's an even just looking back,
• 1:05:43
  it really was
• 1:05:44
  10 or 15 years in total where Jim
• 1:05:47
  was even on the radar
• 1:05:49
  And it killed him. So it's not somebody
• 1:05:52
  that has to be drinking for 30, 40
• 1:05:55
  years, and then it killed It can be
• 1:05:57
  10:15
• 1:05:58
  years, and, you know, really only in the
• 1:06:00
  last 10, I would say was was heavy.
• 1:06:04
  Mh. And day, you know, daily stuff. So,
• 1:06:07
  yeah, It's
• 1:06:08
  it's really a lot more dangerous than than
• 1:06:12
  society wants to
• 1:06:14
  believe.
• 1:06:15
  Yeah.
• 1:06:16
  Yeah. How how are the kids doing? You
• 1:06:20
  you mentioned teenage boys. Are they
• 1:06:23
  are they talking about it? Do they do
• 1:06:25
  they get, you know, do they talk to
• 1:06:27
  counselors? Like, will they open up about how
• 1:06:30
  they're doing?
• 1:06:32
  They they talked to each other on a
• 1:06:35
  lot, but I've... And I've offered, you know,
• 1:06:37
  if they wanna go using for grief counseling
• 1:06:39
  or, you know, they talk to me
• 1:06:41
  but, no. They haven't really done brief counseling
• 1:06:44
  or anything like that, but
• 1:06:47
  I'm pretty open about
• 1:06:50
  and they are too about, you know,
• 1:06:53
  alcohol and and they know the dangers.
• 1:06:59
  But... Yeah. And and they're doing good.
• 1:07:03
  They're both you know, in their young twenties
• 1:07:06
  now.
• 1:07:08
  So
• 1:07:10
  they're they're doing well.
• 1:07:12
  Okay. And my daughter my daughter did go
• 1:07:14
  to do some greek counts and just to
• 1:07:16
  talk to somebody that wasn't me.
• 1:07:19
  And
• 1:07:20
  and she is... She still processes like every
• 1:07:23
  day. And I think
• 1:07:25
  it's it's talked about a lot by her.
• 1:07:29
  Just kinda... If she goes through times where
• 1:07:33
  she's really angry and angry with Daddy and
• 1:07:38
  remembers a lot of the the yelling
• 1:07:41
  and him not bad I'm not being happy
• 1:07:44
  with her, and I had said it's... It
• 1:07:45
  wasn't you, You know?
• 1:07:47
  That he just wasn't happy. It didn't have
• 1:07:49
  anything to do with you. All, but that's...
• 1:07:51
  It takes long time for her or it's
• 1:07:54
  a kind of sink in. So we do
• 1:07:55
  a lot of repetition.
• 1:07:58
  In that way. But but they're they're they're
• 1:08:00
  doing okay. They're doing okay. Well, they're they're
• 1:08:03
  blessed to have someone as wonderful as you
• 1:08:05
  for a mother who's open to continuing to
• 1:08:08
  process and I know what kind of patients
• 1:08:10
  you have. And so
• 1:08:12
  they're very lucky.
• 1:08:14
  Melanie, how...
• 1:08:16
  So
• 1:08:18
  Scott is gone.
• 1:08:21
  And
• 1:08:24
  there is a tension
• 1:08:26
  because, you... You know, alcohol is
• 1:08:29
  alcoholism is something that gets hidden within the
• 1:08:31
  4 walls of the family home so commonly.
• 1:08:34
  But when somebody dies,
• 1:08:37
  everything changes.
• 1:08:38
  You you can't you can't just
• 1:08:41
  deny anymore. How do you handle the tension
• 1:08:44
  between
• 1:08:45
  honesty and authenticity and also, honoring Scott's memory.
• 1:08:50
  Is that hard?
• 1:08:52
  Yes, It is.
• 1:08:55
  Because...
• 1:08:57
  I don't want to
• 1:09:01
  dispatch Scott or give him the label in
• 1:09:04
  death he never accepted for himself
• 1:09:07
  in his life.
• 1:09:10
  So, I guess, I I... And
• 1:09:13
  to be honest, but I guess, like, it
• 1:09:16
  it's easier for me the people that are
• 1:09:18
  a little bit removed. Like, my family hasn't
• 1:09:20
  really asked me directly, like, to what was
• 1:09:22
  going on of that up to this,
• 1:09:25
  except for that my... That first morning with
• 1:09:27
  my sister and what I told her, which,
• 1:09:29
  you know, probably did spread through the family,
• 1:09:31
  but
• 1:09:33
  but, like,
• 1:09:35
  friends that I'm... I've kind of reconnected with,
• 1:09:39
  it's easier to be kind more honest with
• 1:09:41
  them
• 1:09:42
  because they didn't know Scott as well. But
• 1:09:44
  it it is hard
• 1:09:46
  because he was loved by my family, and
• 1:09:49
  he loved my family.
• 1:09:52
  And
• 1:09:53
  so I don't want them to think poorly
• 1:09:55
  of him.
• 1:09:59
  So, yeah, It is hard. It's hard to
• 1:10:01
  to know...
• 1:10:04
  How much people really wanna know.
• 1:10:08
  Yeah. And and how to still honor him,
• 1:10:11
  and that... Because like I said, we he
• 1:10:13
  to love of my life, if I don't...
• 1:10:15
  I... And he always will be,
• 1:10:18
  that didn't change.
• 1:10:20
  So I don't want to
• 1:10:22
  have people think poorly of him.
• 1:10:26
  The bad boy with a good heart.
• 1:10:29
  I love how you describe that.
• 1:10:31
  Yeah.
• 1:10:33
  I I can only imagine how difficult that
• 1:10:35
  is.
• 1:10:37
  So
• 1:10:38
  you just came across the 1 year anniversary
• 1:10:41
  back in June of Scott's passing.
• 1:10:44
  And I know that you had hoped
• 1:10:46
  that there was something kind of
• 1:10:50
  monumental
• 1:10:50
  or... Something kinda magical about the 1 year
• 1:10:53
  mark and that some of the pain would
• 1:10:55
  go away and you'd feel relief, but that
• 1:10:57
  didn't happen.
• 1:10:59
  For you.
• 1:11:00
  Can you talk a little bit about that?
• 1:11:02
  And and what does your ongoing... What does
• 1:11:04
  your work? We talked about the kids, but
• 1:11:06
  what does your work in recovery look like?
• 1:11:11
  Yeah. It was kind of a
• 1:11:14
  the day of his... The anniversary of his
• 1:11:16
  death it kinda kept myself busy when Out
• 1:11:18
  with for lunch with my daughter and a
• 1:11:20
  friend and did some shopping, and and it
• 1:11:22
  was the week after where it was just
• 1:11:25
  I,
• 1:11:27
  burst to crying out of nowhere and
• 1:11:30
  just,
• 1:11:32
  I guess, I don't know if it's a
• 1:11:35
  I thought that once we hit the 1
• 1:11:37
  year, all the first row the first you
• 1:11:39
  know holidays and Great days and all that.
• 1:11:42
  The first were gone,
• 1:11:44
  this should be easier, and then it wasn't.
• 1:11:47
  So it wasn't some kind of magic switch
• 1:11:49
  that just made everything through a better. It
• 1:11:52
  was just
• 1:11:54
  the second, the next time.
• 1:11:57
  We made it a year, but there's still
• 1:12:01
  more to go.
• 1:12:03
  And I I know, I I
• 1:12:05
  met to
• 1:12:06
  plug ec, but that's kind of my
• 1:12:10
  a big part of my
• 1:12:12
  continued processing
• 1:12:15
  is there. The the writing prompts
• 1:12:17
  help me
• 1:12:19
  and just
• 1:12:21
  like, interacting with the people there. It's really
• 1:12:23
  helpful to know
• 1:12:26
  I'm not alone in in different thoughts that
• 1:12:30
  Either had or had.
• 1:12:34
  And
• 1:12:35
  And then I, you know, I have a
• 1:12:36
  really good friend,
• 1:12:38
  that he knows everything, and and we talk
• 1:12:41
  a lot to
• 1:12:43
  she tells me kind of the same things
• 1:12:44
  that you were saying about. There's nothing for
• 1:12:46
  you to feel guilty about. She checks in
• 1:12:48
  with me on how I'm was feeling in
• 1:12:49
  that way quite often. So
• 1:12:52
  she's really good for me too.
• 1:12:56
  So... And And I do talk to the
• 1:12:58
  kids too, not not about
• 1:13:00
  me stuff so much, but about dumb stuff,
• 1:13:02
  and they do ask about me too. So
• 1:13:06
  but, yeah, It's just
• 1:13:08
  I I tried... I had a had... Well,
• 1:13:11
  had a young,
• 1:13:14
  a friend of mine who was widowed even
• 1:13:16
  younger than I was and and she's been
• 1:13:18
  kind of an inspiration to me too,
• 1:13:21
  team said early on, he has to find
• 1:13:23
  the joy in every day, and I I
• 1:13:25
  really try to live like that too.
• 1:13:27
  And do things
• 1:13:30
  that
• 1:13:31
  I enjoy
• 1:13:32
  and
• 1:13:34
  and just live life because
• 1:13:37
  even though he's not here anymore, that's what
• 1:13:39
  he'd want for me. I want for the
• 1:13:41
  kids.
• 1:13:43
  And I I really believe that
• 1:13:46
  he now has clear... Would have that clarity.
• 1:13:51
  And
• 1:13:53
  part of honoring his memory is living our
• 1:13:55
  best lives.
• 1:13:58
  Wow,
• 1:13:59
  so well said,
• 1:14:02
  I think 1 of the reasons that I'm
• 1:14:05
  confident that you're gonna be okay is because
• 1:14:09
  of the way you have
• 1:14:11
  just dove head first
• 1:14:13
  into
• 1:14:14
  being
• 1:14:15
  an authentic and vulnerable people and finding the
• 1:14:18
  connection you need
• 1:14:19
  to work through all of this.
• 1:14:22
  I mean, I don't know why you trust
• 1:14:24
  us and the rest of the group to
• 1:14:26
  the degree that you do. But we are
• 1:14:28
  just blessed that you do and we're better
• 1:14:30
  people for it because
• 1:14:32
  you know, you have shared not only your
• 1:14:34
  experience, but your process and
• 1:14:37
  you have hopefully,
• 1:14:39
  you know, you've gotten some help from it,
• 1:14:41
  but you've given way, way more to our
• 1:14:44
  group. And to Sharing and I personally than
• 1:14:47
  than anything you've gotten from us. So thank
• 1:14:49
  you for trusting us. Thank you for coming
• 1:14:51
  on, and
• 1:14:54
  delivering this message that's painful but needs to
• 1:14:56
  be... Needs to be shared with the world.
• 1:14:58
  So thank you for coming on the intoxicated
• 1:15:01
  podcast guest. We appreciate you. And we love
• 1:15:02
  you Melanie.
• 1:15:03
  Alright. Thank you.
• 1:15:06
  Before you go, we hope you'll consider these
• 1:15:08
  3 resources.
• 1:15:10
  If you love or loved an alcoholic. We
• 1:15:12
  offer support and connection in our echoes of
• 1:15:14
  recovery group. Check us out at echoes of
• 1:15:16
  recovery dot org. If you are a high
• 1:15:19
  functioning alcohol, seeking methods and connection in early
• 1:15:22
  sobriety.
• 1:15:23
  We're ready for you at shout sobriety dot
• 1:15:26
  org.
• 1:15:26
  No matter who you are, the something for
• 1:15:28
  you in our book, sober revolution, evolve into
• 1:15:31
  sobriety and recover your alcoholic marriage. Go to
• 1:15:34
  sober revolution dot org. For my wife, Sherry
• 1:15:38
  Bayless, I'm Matt Sal. Thanks for listening to
• 1:15:40
  the intoxicated podcast.
• 1:15:43
  Bayless