Latest / The Managing Partners' Table / Ep 2: Growing a Law Firm Through Relationships, Referrals, and the Right Partners

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Ep 2: Growing a Law Firm Through Relationships, Referrals, and the Right Partners · The Managing Partners' Table

• 0:00
  welcome to today's episode of the Managing Partners' Table, I'm very excited to have with us today Jonathan Goodgold from Goodgold West's Maitland and Klein.
• 0:07
  I wanted to have him on, not only because I know that he can chat for hours about everything and anything, but also that he has a lot to share when it comes to being a
• 0:14
  managing partner.
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  So
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  We will get into it.
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  So Jonathan, you know, one of the things and I don't think I even know the story is how you be got to where you are.
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  Like was this always your dream when you became a lawyer?
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  Like I wanna run my own firm or just accidental managing partner.
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  ~ good question.
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  ~ I didn't know what I wanted to be when I went to law school.
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  I just knew I didn't want to be a doctor.
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  So that was like not not going to med school.
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  Can't stand the sight of blood, can't stand a turned ankle, something gruesome on a sports cast.
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  I'm like, I'm a turn away.
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  ~ my friends, parents that were lawyers, and I was like, ooh, okay, I like that.
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  I like history.
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  I like political science.
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  I like that.
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  realm, I'm like, let me go try to go into law school.
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  ~ did well in college, wrote well, honest thesis Lincoln read about him being a lawyer, you know, his history as a lawyer and all of that.
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  And I was like, law school makes sense.
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  Did did okay on the L set.
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  Did did average in law school because I didn't know what it meant to
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  Work hard and be a lawyer because college came easy after like the first semester.
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  Once I learned how to write like a college student, I knew how to write.
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  So writing was easy, and most of my classes had writing assignments and test taking was fine.
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  Got to law school, rude awakening.
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  I was average
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  for the first time in my life, and I didn't like that feeling.
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  ~
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  my history was basically I went to law school, ~ got a job clerking for the Honorable W.
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  Hontemont in Passaic County, Superior Court, New Jersey.
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  this was 2001, 2002.
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  I'm clerking.
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  Great, great experience.
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  I r highly recommend anyone who has an interest in litigation or whatnot.
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  It works.
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  It it you learn the court system, especially state court.
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  If you can get a federal clerkship, great, that'll lead to other things.
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  so I guess my goal at that point was get a job.
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  I knew I didn't have the
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  Ivy League, you know, resume or whatnot to be looked at, or the law school, you know, order of the quaff or order, you know, the honors there to to really get a high-end, firm
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  job where it's like, okay, I know I'm in the library for the and I'm gonna work 80, 90 hours a week, but you're making a lot of money.
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  which I thought I would end up doing, but I obviously didn't, and then realized.
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  I'm not cut out for that.
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  and I like kind of knowing where things go and knowing how things work.
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  So I clerked for a year, I went to an insurance defense firm ~ in lower Manhattan.
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  I didn't last very long.
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  ~ it it wasn't a great experience and really they never never taught.
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  And that's important as a managing partner and as a lawyer in general because you're a mentor to people younger, you've got to deal with staff, you gotta deal with associates or
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  or whatnot.
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  ~ so after that I found a civil litigation firm in
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  Hackensack.
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  I was there for about two and a half years and they taught me how to be a lawyer.
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  I see some of the partners at the state bar convention, or one just referred me a case, and ~ you know, catching up with them, and it's like, yeah, I'm not the little associate
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  anymore.
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  And it's really not that I was ever really little, I'm six foot three, but it's ~ they taught me how to be a lawyer, and I still have good relationships with.
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  Pretty much other than that insurance defense firm, everyone I've worked with, I could still reach out to and ~ make a call and say, Hey, hi, how are you?
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  Can you help me with something?
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  Or I've got a question.
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  ~ so after that I went to Genova Burns.
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  I wanted to do labor and employment law.
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  And I wasn't able to do that where I was in Hack and Sack.
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  And then I was there about twenty-two months and then
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  A friend of mine, my best friend at the time, and still friend, but best friend at the time, said, Hey, I've gotta practice.
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  I'm on my own with a brother, but his brother's gonna leave.
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  I'm come join.
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  I wanna grow a firm with you.
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  Well, I had no idea what that meant or how that actually worked.
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  And we were together for a year.
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  It wasn't quite the you know, kumbaya moment or the, you know
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  everything I dreamed it would be.
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  And then I went on my own.
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  I was on my own for eight years and started, you know, having to run your own practice.
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  You're you're the managing partner, whether you like it or not.
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  ~ I learned how to run an office.
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  I learned what I didn't like doing, a lot of the administrative I can't do QuickBooks life of me.
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  ~ the accounting stuff
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  Just bad.
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  the money was always there, but I just didn't like QuickBooks.
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  ~
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  so then I I was eight years.
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  I took the cases I wanted to take for the most part, other than when I needed money, and I would take other cases, you know, the proverbial what what do you practice?
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  anything that walks through the door.
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  ~ you know, that's my specialty.
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  but I tried to focus on employment law and collection work because I knew employment law and and I started doing collection work and I had a per diem, I had two per diems that I
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  was doing work for, and some of them had collection work, some of them had New York litigation, and I got a wide variety of stuff, had some not safety net, but I had work
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  outside of my own doings, started learning how to network, ~
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  Learned what worked for me, learned what didn't.
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  Sometimes spread myself too thin, sometimes didn't spread myself out enough.
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  That's fine-tuning.
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  you know, and then I had my, you know, my family and my kids were little, and that was hard.
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  And there were some days I would try to stay at the office to like nine o'clock once a week, just so I could get work done.
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  And whether I was productive or not's not happening.
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  But I had the freedom, come home for lunch.
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  I never worked that far.
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  So it was, hey, the kid has some the kids have something at school.
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  Okay, I can go.
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  And then I'll go in later.
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  I'll come in and I'll hang out or they whatever, it was fine.
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  So and I will take a breath here.
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  Yeah.
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  So so at that point, so 2015, I had a friend who asked me, wanted to grow firm again, and thought I was hungry and wanted to grow, and he was right.
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  Joined a firm, wanted a bigger platform.
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  May not have been the right financial decision at the time, looking back on it, but it it may not have been the right platform at all, but it worked.
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  I mean, it it got me to here.
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  So I guess that's probably so when that firm blew up in twenty nineteen, ~ the rest of us left.
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  I became the managing partner because I was the one who networked.
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  I always stayed networking.
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  I always had connections.
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  I always was meeting people.
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  And that's why we would, that's why I was named managing partner, even though I was the youngest partner at the firm.
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  And I've just continued it.
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  And as you know, we've been through multiple Iiterations in different successor firms over the last six, seven years.
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  ~ different logos, different names.
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  We try certain things.
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  ~ I've gotten grayer in the last six or seven years.
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  you know, but I've also found what I like doing.
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  I know what I'm good at.
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  I know you know where I need to go get business from, who I need to talk to, and that's been
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  much better.
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  I mean now now I'm finally learning how to be a lawyer twenty five years into my practice.
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  Now you're hitting the stride.
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  It's a it's a learning process.
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  And I'd be curious because I think that's something that a lot of people struggle with is you like you said, you hate accounting.
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  And and I think a lot of people would hold on to that for so long because they're like, No, I could do it, or I'm the managing partner.
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  I should learn how.
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  But what were some of the things that you like were like, ~ I shouldn't be doing this anymore?
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  Like you learned what you're good at, what you like doing.
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  What are some things that you maybe let go of?
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  Like, did you stop doing anything along the way?
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  And there are other things you started doing more?
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  yeah, trying to advertise in like the phone book or the ~ certain people had like a magazine.
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  I was like, no, we're not doing that again.
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  That was a terrible, expensive, stupid mistake.
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  didn't lead to anything.
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  ~ you know, a lot of a lot of it is just being honest and truthful and being friendly.
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  I I mean when I was in law school, you'd hear like or early career.
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  you need to network.
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  I'm like, what the hell does that even mean?
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  What do you mean network?
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  With who?
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  With what?
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  What do you do?
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  And and I quickly learned I like meeting people.
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  I've always been social.
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  When I was a young associate, I'd go to an event, the firm would have a table, and I'd see all the partners.
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  Talking to all the other partners and other firms.
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  Yeah, how are you?
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  What's going on?
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  How's the golf game?
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  How's this?
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  How's that?
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  Have you been here?
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  And they all know each other and they they're hanging out, and we're the associates standing in a corner.
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  Like, okay, when's food?
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  When's this?
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  Okay.
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  and I was like, this sucks.
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  I've got to learn how to get out of that.
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  And
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  eventually I did.
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  I remember I was at an I was in a networking group and it was an open house for a law firm.
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  And I see a group of associates and they're standing in the corner.
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  Like, hey, how are you?
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  Nice to meet you.
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  Business card?
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  No, I don't have.
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  I was like, go to your office now.
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  Get cards.
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  I'm like, I'm yelling at them.
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  And I'm like, you are at an event.
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  Run by your firm, where you're meeting clients of the firm, people that you work on cases for, and colleagues and co-counsel, and all these, and you're standing in the corner
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  talking to each other like you've done all day.
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  Go meet these people.
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  Maybe they'll put a face and a name, and maybe they'll refer you business instead of the partner.
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  And I I was like
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  That's what you need to do.
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  Don't be in the corner.
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  I used to be you.
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  Don't do that.
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  ~
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  skill though.
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  So that's something that a lot of us had to be taught.
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  Yeah.
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  I mean, I know I like just give me a room, give me a stack full of cards.
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  I mean, you know, we've we've networked together, Amanda, and it's it's fun.
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  I love going to an event and you know, whether it's a golf outing and then dinner afterwards or you know, just or state bar or NJAJ, which I went to the first time, it's
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  interesting.
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  I love meeting people, but that's my skill.
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  That's what I like doing.
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  Not everyone's like that.
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  I know at one of the former iterations of the firm, it'd be like, you should be networking, you should be networking.
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  Dude, not everyone likes networking.
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  Not everyone's good at it.
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  There are people who like, you know, meeting people through cases or, you know, have relationships with friends or colleagues or other people outside of going to an event.
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  And trying to force people to do the same thing just isn't
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  you know, putting a s square peg in a round hole.
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  If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.
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  Yeah.
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  And I think that
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  that's true that those skill sets are not for everyone.
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  Some people like to network, other people are great at operations.
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  And I know that like networking is one of your strengths.
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  And I would I would love to talk too because as we were sitting here chatting, I realized actually how unique it is.
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  You have someone handling a lot of the operations at the firm.
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  So you have time to boo do do both client work and handle the networking and rain making and all that.
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  So maybe you could talk about that.
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  Cause I don't think that's a thing a lot of firms, at least not many that we've talked to, have in place.
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  I think it's coming and more and more firms are realizing the value of it and that not
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  your point not everyone's good at everything or and should be managing the the affirm and all the day to day but yeah how did how did that happen?
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  Well, he kind of came with the firm we kind of blew up in ~ twenty nineteen.
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  ~ so Harris Podby is my COO.
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  ~ he's been in he he's been a banker, he knows the financial aspects of things, how things work.
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  He's been a banker, ~ has done real estate ~ transactional transactions as a paralegal.
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  ~
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  His father recently passed and was one of the lions of the legal industry.
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  So he knows a lot of the players in the state.
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  ~ because his father was an active networker.
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  so we rely on a lot of that.
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  So he d handles all the financial all I mean, I review everything.
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  I we go over financials, hey, we're tight this month, or we need to bring in this, or I know where we are books wise or
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  Whatever, but having him actually do the day to day crap, great.
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  I don't have to I don't have to I don't have to worry about it.
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  ~
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  and you know, you toss things off of you know, we think about business acquisitions or we are talking about, you know, growing the firm and we him and I don't always see eye to eye
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  ~ on things, but we have a managing ~ committee.
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  We haven't really met recently, just been things have been busy, but we gotta get back to that.
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  but having someone that I know is looking at the day-to-day picture allows me to
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  continue with my practice because a lot of these firms in the bigger firms, the managing partner doesn't really do much legal work anymore.
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  It's
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  Yeah.
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  financial, he's dealing with business relationships, he's out and about building relationships.
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  I get to do that and still practice law.
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  ~ which is good because otherwise I'd be bankrupt.
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  ~ but it's it's just nice that I can focus on what I'm good at.
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  And you know, yeah, I come in on the you know, I come in on the weekends.
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  I still need to come in because during the week I'm distracted or there's stuff or I have events or have to you know, I get to take the kids to places or I, you know, have to go to
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  a couple of events or I've got other work I need to do and I wasn't able to catch up on a few things.
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  I had a deadline.
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  I come in for a few hours and I just have silence.
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  I have my yacht rock radio on on the computer and I, you know, jam out and ~ try to get whatever I can get done.
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  Done and then move on to the next task and hopefully lighten my load for the week, but that never
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  To try.
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  Try a lightwood.
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  yeoman's effort, but it doesn't always happen
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  So obviously you've been doing this for a while, both have you know, you had your own from first and that probably gave a good background as you stepped into this managing partner
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  role.
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  But is there anything that you would have done differently
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  Yeah.
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  out of the gate?
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  I mean, obviously lots of learning lessons for everyone that runs anything along the way, but
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  ~
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  Well, since I wasn't in control of prior iterations of the firm, I probably would have tried to voice myself a little more on certain acquisitions.
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  ~
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  When we started in twenty nineteen, we were, you know, it was hard.
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  We had the firm basically had to start over from scratch.
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  So certain attorneys we brought in, certain attorneys we won in relationships with didn't quite work out, or we pursued certain things.
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  ~ you know, we've worked with the philosophy, don't put the firm in debt.
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  And put the firm in debt as little as possible.
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  ~ we moved two years ago, you know, we had to have a line of credit.
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  We don't, you know, our firm's different though.
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  we don't pay a salary to the attorneys.
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  ~
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  Or the partners, I should say, but that's all we have right now.
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  we tried expanding different practice areas.
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  you know, you learn it didn't quite work out, or we should have aggressively pushed for something else, or we should have ~ maybe offered a draw or something if we were able to.
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  we tried associates.
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  didn't work for us.
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  You know, we're neat what you kill firms, so when partners don't want to give up the work and the associates aren't quite ready to be profitable, it's hard.
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  I'm you know, then we had two associates it we couldn't financially keep them after nine months.
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  ~ that was us.
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  That was on us, not them.
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  You know, we didn't
• 17:44
  Review things probably as closely as we should.
• 17:46
  We probably should have been more you you need to bill XYZ hours, but we're not like that.
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  You know, we don't want to be the micromanaging law firm.
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  we think everyone's an adult, do your work, go home.
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  If you're an associate, please stay late and work till you need to finish what you're doing.
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  But bill and work and get the work done.
• 18:09
  ~ but that was also on us.
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  That was also on
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  each attorney managing their workload or managing their
• 18:17
  their practice area.
• 18:18
  So that, you know, we should realize certain things weren't profitable enough to require associates or require ~ dedicated staff.
• 18:29
  That was on us.
• 18:30
  We tried it.
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  It didn't work.
• 18:33
  I think that's that's historically has been an issue for law firms though.
• 18:36
  I think a lot of the software and the way things are tracked, it makes it almost impossible.
• 18:39
  I don't, even on the marketing side, we've always tried to track, what's what's incoming?
• 18:43
  Where do we tie this to?
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  And it just seems like there's a bunch of different systems, both time tracking and billing and case management.
• 18:49
  And I think it's only recently that some of that has been integrated into single software, but I don't think that you're alone.
• 18:56
  No, I mean I what I need is automation.
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  ~ I don't need all the bells and whistles.
• 19:01
  I always choke around it.
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  I mean, AI is coming.
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  AI is coming.
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  Beware.
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  I I just go, we saw the Terminator movies.
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  Judgment Day is coming.
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  You know, you don't want robots and stuff smarter than us.
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  You know, it it's bad.
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  ~ and they can't finish, you know, they can't review certain things.
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  Certain areas of law, you can, you know, get a tax structure, you can get a
• 19:25
  Things are out there, great, but you still need to look at it.
• 19:28
  You still need to review it.
• 19:29
  You still need to know, hey, ~ you know, I've got I've got a software now, ~ research software that has an AI function.
• 19:39
  It's okay.
• 19:40
  You know, I can type something in and then go through the whole thing and but you know what?
• 19:44
  I still gotta check that if a case actually exists.
• 19:47
  Like give me text of case, thank you.
• 19:49
  ~ you know, it's shouldn't be that hard.
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  It really shouldn't.
• 19:57
  you know, yeah, it's nice to get an overview and a synopsis, and then I can, okay, let me see what the statute actually says, or let me see what this actually means.
• 20:07
  And then the case doesn't really say that as much, or it's not as clear, you know, and I've got to finagle the language a little bit, you know, to get the import of the case
• 20:17
  because it's not saying exactly what it said in the AI, because what I wanted in the the AI said what I wanted it to say.
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  But it wasn't as clear in the statute or in the case law.
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  And it's like, okay, now I've got to go back and, you know, work at it and put it into my language, put it into my, you know, how I speak so I can talk about it intelligently.
• 20:37
  And ~ you know, this is the closed world universe of AI.
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  It's not Chat GPT or anything like that.
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  It's in the whatever recorders they have, reporters they have of the case law or the statute.
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  So it pulls it.
• 20:50
  ~ but again, there's a disclaimer.
• 20:54
  AI is not the truth.
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  You need to verify everything.
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  And like and why are we almost like why are we doing this?
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  I understand synopsis.
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  I understand AI functions in like document review, heavy duty stuff like that, like the mundane tests where maybe you can cut out a bunch of hours where you can streamline what
• 21:13
  you're looking for if it's a gigantic world of documents.
• 21:17
  Ugh Nah.
• 21:19
  I'm not, you know, I'm not ready to have it replace me yet.
• 21:21
  So
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  I think we're a long way from that.
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  And I think the way that you're
• 21:25
  using AI is the proper way to use it to assist you in some of the research, but you're not using any of the writing that it actually gave you.
• 21:31
  And I also think we're
• 21:32
  a long way off from AI replacing lawyers.
• 21:34
  I know a lot of the lawyers I've talked to, and I I don't know if you've gotten this yet, but I'm sure you have, of clients coming with chat GPT outputs and saying, hey, why don't
• 21:41
  we use this?
• 21:42
  And it just being not relevant for them or just entirely wrong.
• 21:45
  I have, I mean, I know I've seen the same format of pro se answers, motions, ~ counterclaims in you know they use Chat GPT, and it's awful.
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  It's it it doesn't even say anything.
• 22:05
  It's just like you wronged me.
• 22:06
  I'm like, right, ~ you you said it was gonna be this.
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  I'm like, that's not how any of this is.
• 22:13
  You have
• 22:14
  You don't even deny anything, you know, it it's like, what are we actually doing here?
• 22:18
  And then it just makes my world more complicated because they think they're a lawyer, so they'll go to court and like, this is like, sir, you don't have any evidence, you don't
• 22:28
  have any proof, you don't have any documents, you don't have anything.
• 22:31
  What are we actually doing here?
• 22:33
  And then hopefully the court will actually grant me the relief I'm entitled to.
• 22:38
  Well, it sounds like at least at the very least you won't wind up in Law.com as being cited for one of the people using a case that doesn't exist.
• 22:47
  I mean, that is just, you know, you feel bad for some of these people who've thrown away basically their career sport.
• 22:54
  And no case is worth that.
• 22:59
  and you know, your dignity, your respect, your your reputation online, and you know what?
• 23:06
  Double check a case.
• 23:08
  And if you're allowing your associates to do stuff like that and you're not reviewing it, shame on you.
• 23:13
  If you're doing it, even worse.
• 23:16
  Yeah, it's the same thing.
• 23:17
  I mean, as as any work done by associates, right?
• 23:18
  Like all of it still has to be checked.
• 23:20
  So it's even with AI.
• 23:23
  Well, and speaking of associates, I know it sounds like you're the attorneys that you're free affirm with the model, there's a lot more freedom than when you have associates.
• 23:31
  What does it look like?
• 23:32
  Kind of, how do you guys know?
• 23:35
  I mean basically we're not the type of firm that
• 23:41
  You have to be in here nine to five.
• 23:45
  Come in when you want.
• 23:46
  You have a kids' event, fine.
• 23:47
  You have a you know, you've got you you got an appointment, fine.
• 23:51
  ~ just do the work.
• 23:53
  If if you've got work, do it.
• 23:56
  You want to do it off hours, it doesn't harm the client, doesn't harm the attorney it's the works for or you know, or whatever.
• 24:03
  It doesn't matter.
• 24:04
  ~ just get the work done.
• 24:06
  I I don't care how it gets done, just legally, ethically, and
• 24:10
  you know, in the time frame needed.
• 24:14
  other than that,
• 24:16
  hopefully profitably.
• 24:17
  Yeah.
• 24:17
  Don't take eight hours on a thing that should take two minutes, but ~ but I I I'm not the micromanager.
• 24:26
  You know, we want you to obviously we want everyone to bill as much as possible and bring in and originate as much as possible.
• 24:33
  Our model is gonna be is always the most profitable when you bring in work enough work for you to do.
• 24:41
  And then you have access work you can give to someone else.
• 24:47
  Trying to get to that stage where everyone's doing that is great.
• 24:51
  I mean, we're looking to grow.
• 24:52
  So that's always another headache, which we'll get into and I'm sure in a minute or two.
• 24:56
  But it's ~ new topic there.
• 24:59
  But but that's hard.
• 25:02
  It's really hard micromanaging.
• 25:06
  I'm just refuse to do it.
• 25:08
  You know, you have a problem, come to us.
• 25:10
  Don't hide it.
• 25:10
  ~ that's the biggest thing.
• 25:13
  If you you know, we have an issue in a case, come to us.
• 25:17
  Come to me, come to Harris, come to Rich West, who's our on our executive committee, does professional licensing.
• 25:24
  Let's figure out a solution to it.
• 25:26
  And it might be, hey, we screwed up.
• 25:29
  Okay, refund the money or do something.
• 25:31
  Or it might be they're completely wrong.
• 25:35
  Let's figure out how we get out of this, or let's alert the carrier, or let which few and far between, and and you know, but it's let's figure out what's going on.
• 25:45
  And
• 25:46
  know, we have a fiarb dispute.
• 25:47
  Okay, it's fine.
• 25:48
  We'll respond to the fi arb.
• 25:50
  I mean, you know, what can we do?
• 25:51
  ~ is there a problem?
• 25:53
  No.
• 25:54
  You know, is the person wrong?
• 25:55
  Yes.
• 25:56
  You know, but we gotta go through it.
• 25:59
  Not a big deal.
• 25:59
  We'll deal with it.
• 26:00
  It it happens.
• 26:01
  Every firm has it.
• 26:02
  It it happens.
• 26:04
  ~
• 26:05
  really hired for that culture though, and brought in attorneys that are a good fit for that.
• 26:10
  Has that gotten more fine tune over the years of bringing in the right people?
• 26:15
  Yeah, I mean I think now we have the right mix of people, ~ or personalities, I should say.
• 26:22
  ~ people who work hard, want their, you know, want to make as much money as they can, but also want the firm to succeed.
• 26:32
  Most of us have been on our own.
• 26:34
  ~ so we know what the e what e kill model is just by by circumstance.
• 26:41
  We know we've been at firms that we've
• 26:43
  either liked or don't like, haven't liked, and it just we're all pretty much easygoing.
• 26:52
  Sometimes we may be stressed over something, we'll yell and scream about something in the office about, you know, someone screwing up, you know, but or a stupid argument by
• 27:03
  counsel, how can you do that?
• 27:04
  You know, it happens.
• 27:07
  You get a bad ruling, you you deal with it, you figure out the next step.
• 27:10
  We're all here to help each other, so that's always nice.
• 27:12
  I can go into any of my partner's offices.
• 27:15
  Hey, I've got this issue.
• 27:16
  What do you think?
• 27:17
  Or let's talk about this over lunch.
• 27:19
  Let's what do you think about this?
• 27:22
  and then maybe two or three ideas.
• 27:23
  I'm like, that one's good.
• 27:24
  I like that one.
• 27:25
  You wanna do this one?
• 27:26
  You know, I might need someone with a little more gravitas than me, but now I'm as I'm the gray haired guy, it's you know, it it it we I can get away with certain things, so that's
• 27:38
  always
• 27:40
  Nice.
• 27:40
  ~ now that I'm mature enough, mature enough as an attorney
• 27:47
  in my practice, although I still don't want to ~ you know curse out a judge or yell at the staff
• 27:55
  or do whatever, which was bad, you know, and and it's frowned upon in the law in the legal field, so I try to avoid that as much as possible.
• 28:04
  Yeah.
• 28:05
  HR, yeah, absolutely.
• 28:08
  it sounds like the attorneys that you brought on.
• 28:10
  I mean, I'm sure that's a nice thing, especially if a lot of them were used to being on their own to have be able to walk into someone's office and say, Hey, can you help me
• 28:15
  this?
• 28:15
  And I know also that you've worked on growing different complementary practice areas.
• 28:19
  ~ is that how you're finding kind of opportunities for new growth?
• 28:23
  Is people that are kind of at their own firm and that's what you're looking for and they're they're used to that model.
• 28:28
  ~ I look at it, there are three or four different ways this would work.
• 28:34
  Usually we've had the most success with.
• 28:38
  solos or some actually I'm just looking at my p the partners I have now and it's like yeah probably the majority were they were solo they were tired of doing the administrative the
• 28:51
  back end work and wanted something bigger could use you know some referrals here and there you know from time to time and it's worked.
• 29:03
  ~
• 29:05
  We've had or or maybe want to try to slow down a little bit at some point.
• 29:10
  So you got people running their own firm, got maybe the more mature older attorneys who are maybe looking for an exit strategy and can be, we're not gonna buy your book, we're
• 29:22
  not gonna buy your practice, but you can work as much as you want, you can come in, you can ~ you know, with our
• 29:31
  Our model, the originator, gets a fee.
• 29:32
  So as much as you want to work on your stuff, great.
• 29:35
  If you don't want to work on it and someone can do it, you'll get paid as an originator for you know as long as you're in the firm, that works.
• 29:44
  We've had people at firms where ~ they weren't getting paid on their book or the the way they should.
• 29:52
  Because yeah, firms have to make money, that little thing.
• 29:56
  Minor detail.
• 29:57
  it's so you get a bigger firm, person with a three, four hundred thousand dollar book of business isn't profitable to them depending on the size of the firm, because you've still
• 30:04
  got to pay you.
• 30:06
  And most of them are paying on a salary or a draw, and ~ that gets reviewed.
• 30:13
  So some people, you know, maybe you have a three, four hundred, five hundred thousand dollar book of business and are only getting paid $150,000, $200,000.
• 30:22
  They can make more with us if they just do their own work.
• 30:25
  And then if they refer other stuff, they could make more.
• 30:28
  So
• 30:30
  It really depends.
• 30:31
  I mean, I'd like to think it's the solo, but
• 30:37
  I would love to get, you know, every and every this has been the biggest problem of running this firm.
• 30:42
  We we get up to seven or eight attorneys, and then something happens and we're down, or then we have to change a name, or then something goes wrong, or something goes squ
• 30:51
  sideways.
• 30:52
  And then we're five attorneys, we're four attorneys, and we're back up to eight or seven, and then we just can't get over the hump.
• 30:59
  I always thought if we could get to ten, we'd have a momentum where, hey,
• 31:05
  Now we're attractive to a two, three-person outfit.
• 31:08
  Maybe we're able to swallow someone.
• 31:10
  Or maybe, you know, not that I'm looking forward to merging our firm out of existence, but maybe there's someone who wants to take us on.
• 31:17
  I don't want necessarily want to go down that route yet.
• 31:21
  ~ I'd rather be the acquire or rather than the acquiree.
• 31:26
  ~ but you know, maybe there's a combination, a merger that makes sense where
• 31:35
  I get the best of both worlds, but it's not out there yet.
• 31:37
  And I don't think we're the right size for it yet.
• 31:41
  but you know, if the right opportunity came around to talk, to merge, to figure out if there's synergies with practices, and I hate using terms like that.
• 31:50
  I feel like I'm you know, one of those ROI and all all these metrics, you know, all the metrics and all the ROI, and then I'm like, I talk like a human being, please.
• 32:01
  And it's like I'd like to think that.
• 32:05
  If I can get a couple more people in here, we we're that much more attractive for other people to come join.
• 32:12
  but they've gotta buy in and they've gotta know, you know, gotta fit the culture, they've gotta fit the, hey, I'm okay with this.
• 32:20
  I'm okay with the way this works.
• 32:21
  ~ they're gonna treat me like mature adults and they're not gonna micromanage.
• 32:29
  And hopefully.
• 32:30
  that you look for?
• 32:30
  So I'll give you another word instead of synergy.
• 32:32
  How about good fit?
• 32:34
  or complimentary.
• 32:36
  ~
• 32:36
  what are you looking for when you kind of look to see if someone is that fit?
• 32:42
  They care about what they do.
• 32:45
  They're not all that ser they're serious, but they're not serious.
• 32:48
  So I I know that sounds like oxy oxymoronic.
• 32:54
  but they're serious about their work.
• 32:55
  They're serious about doing good work for their clients, but they don't take themselves that serious.
• 32:59
  They don't think they're that they don't think they're God's gift everything.
• 33:03
  They don't need to have everything kowtowed to them.
• 33:08
  ~
• 33:10
  They just want to come in, be part of the team, work, ~ build a firm.
• 33:16
  They just want to build and grow and be part of it and help and take initiative and move forward.
• 33:24
  ~ you know, we've had in other I iterations or in the past firms someone come in and demand, I want this, I want that, I want that, I want this market material, I want that
• 33:37
  market.
• 33:37
  That's not gonna
• 33:38
  That's not necessarily gonna work.
• 33:42
  you know, someone's got a good book of business, maybe not great, maybe needs a little help growing it, maybe with the right connections or the right referrals, could grow it.
• 33:51
  ~ certainly would like to help, and I certainly would like to be part of that to be able to grow and ~ and help an attorney grow.
• 34:01
  ~ but you know, a lot of people just
• 34:06
  either get stuck in their ways or they just don't see it or they just, hey, I I'm too afraid to leave the nest of the comfy the comfy salary that I know is coming every two
• 34:18
  weeks when I even though I could be making a lot more.
• 34:22
  You almost have to be willing to gamble on yourself a little bit.
• 34:24
  ~ and the right fit, we'd figure out a way to try to make it work.
• 34:29
  ~ even if it didn't fit the parameters exactly the way we wanted it.
• 34:33
  But
• 34:34
  We'll see when that h if if and when that happens.
• 34:37
  Yeah, that's almost a little entrepreneurial or kind of betting on yourself, but it sounds like you're giving a lot of leeway for them to kind of get where they want to be.
• 34:45
  I mean if you told me when I was leaving law school you were gonna run your own practice at some point, I'd be like, You're crazy.
• 34:50
  No, never.
• 34:51
  I'm gonna be a cog in the machine and I'm gonna be a good attorney and I'm gonna, you know, whatever.
• 34:56
  I never would have thought it.
• 34:58
  And then ~ hanging up a shingle, you know.
• 35:01
  I I always go back to the old adage everyone knows it, but I remember my parents saying, if it was easy, everyone would do it.
• 35:09
  ~
• 35:11
  It's not easy.
• 35:11
  I mean, it is easier to do a certain way just say, hey, I'm here, give me work, I'll do the work, I'll get paid every two weeks.
• 35:20
  It's fine.
• 35:22
  I I like the upside.
• 35:24
  I mean, I I like and and ego-wise, I want to build a bigger practice.
• 35:29
  I want to build something that I'm proud of that my parents that my kids will be like, Daddy has that big firm.
• 35:35
  Nice.
• 35:36
  You know, I I would love that.
• 35:37
  ~
• 35:39
  ~ the office is stocked with all the stuff that we like or we can hang out and do whatever.
• 35:44
  I mean, they can hang out now.
• 35:45
  We have off office space, but it's like I'd love to be proud of like, dad's just a lawyer.
• 35:50
  ~
• 35:52
  I have a feeling they're very proud now.
• 35:54
  But with that with is that kind of the biggest pro for you right now with continu 'cause it is hard.
• 35:59
  ~ you know, I don't think people think it's easy, but
• 36:02
  I mean, I'm in my mindset is growth mode.
• 36:06
  I wanna, you know, we've talked about this.
• 36:08
  We've seen I've seen friends and colleagues grow exponentially in the last seven or eight years.
• 36:15
  And I feel like I've been standing still or treading water or, you know, stuck in a pit of, you know, quicksand, ~ depending on the analogy you wanna use.
• 36:24
  And I'm like, you know, the diff different model, different type of firm, different type of work.
• 36:30
  ~ couple times I thought I got cl you know, we got close to someone that really would have helped put us over the edge and it just didn't happen or you know, there definitely
• 36:40
  certain areas I'd like to expand into.
• 36:42
  ~ but you know what?
• 36:46
  Just gotta be patient and wait for the right opportunity.
• 36:48
  And hopefully that comes sooner rather than later.
• 36:52
  But
• 36:53
  think just the more I'm out there, the more I'm networking, the more I meet people.
• 36:59
  Someone knows someone who knows someone who just, you know, there might be synergies or or a good
• 37:09
  or or a good fit, you know, for whatever you whatever you want to call it.
• 37:12
  But it it would be a welcome addition to the firm and I think would enjoy it.
• 37:17
  ~ and be a welcome addition.
• 37:19
  So that's
• 37:22
  kind of where we that's where my mindset is.
• 37:25
  And of course it's growing also the work that we have now.
• 37:29
  Although speaking of AI, I would love to clone myself a few times so I can get more work.
• 37:34
  else.
• 37:35
  I know.
• 37:35
  ~ there I'm I'm billing 30 hours in a day?
• 37:39
  Okay, that'd be lovely.
• 37:40
  ~
• 37:41
  Ha ha.
• 37:42
  not allowed.
• 37:43
  I'm not condoning that.
• 37:44
  So I'm just saying that ahead of time.
• 37:46
  ~ but you know it'd be nice to be able to just either
• 37:52
  Know the work's getting done and I'm out networking, you know, four days of the week.
• 37:57
  Or I'm networking two or three days, but I'm doing the work and I have enough stuff that I know people are doing it, and I have enough work for other people that make it that I
• 38:07
  don't have to touch necessarily.
• 38:08
  ~ so I would love to bring in more work for the existing partners, and I'm trying to, and I've been doing that a little bit.
• 38:21
  But then the just growing the firm with bodies and people who have a book and then there might be more work for other people anyway, that way.
• 38:32
  So you know
• 38:34
  I
• 38:34
  mean, there's multiple ways to grow, right?
• 38:36
  Between referrals from other attorneys, between actual marketing and having new clients come to you by acquisition.
• 38:41
  So there's been a whole bunch of pathways and I know you've explored a bunch of them.
• 38:45
  ~ how has that looked kind of you like how does your firm look currently?
• 38:49
  Like where where do most of your clients come from right now?
• 38:51
  Mostly the referrals from your other attorneys or networking.
• 38:55
  ~ referrals and networking.
• 38:57
  Like I went down, I was speaking at the New Jersey Association for Justice, the NJAJ, ~ end of April.
• 39:07
  And I talked to one of the my panelists.
• 39:11
  We're doing business torts and I had the collection portion of it.
• 39:14
  So the on the panel was former partner of an accounting firm that's a client of mine.
• 39:21
  One of the mu one of the elite heads of the panel became a client.
• 39:27
  another one's just may have referred me something today, although he'd mentioned it a few weeks ago or a month ago.
• 39:33
  ~ you know, I went down there, hung out with clients of mine, and they referred they introduced me to their mentor who's now a client.
• 39:41
  So it it more than paid for itself going down there for for overnight.
• 39:47
  Had a good dinner, had it went to a couple parties, hung out.
• 39:50
  It was was fun.
• 39:51
  And and regardless of the business, doing that is fun.
• 39:56
  And that's how you meet people.
• 39:59
  That's how you get out there.
• 40:00
  That's how.
• 40:02
  But again, it doesn't work for everyone.
• 40:05
  And for me, it works.
• 40:08
  And I like being out in that crowd, talking to people, schmoozing, doing whatever, and just having fun.
• 40:16
  Life's too short to.
• 40:18
  be stuck in my office all day or not be able to have fun.
• 40:21
  So
• 40:23
  There has to be a trade-off, right?
• 40:24
  To all the hours in the office.
• 40:25
  So
• 40:27
  I mean, and I think it especially if you're responsible for the rainmaking, it should be something fun.
• 40:31
  I think every time we talk to attorneys that are really good at bringing in business or anyone, they're not doing the things that they hate.
• 40:36
  They're not sitting down and writing, you know, a 5,000-word article if they hate writing.
• 40:39
  And they're not, they're not going to networking events if they hate networking events too.
• 40:42
  Maybe they are public speaking.
• 40:44
  ~
• 40:45
  so is is that something that your other partners do at the firm also that they go out and they network, or are you kind of more responsible for helping bring in work?
• 40:52
  for them.
• 40:54
  ~ I'd like I think most of the partners now have their sources of referrals, you know, have their contacts.
• 41:06
  May not be going to State Bar or NJAJ or or those big things or belong to a big networking group, and that's fine.
• 41:17
  I don't care what you do, it's just just do something and just you know, if you have business, great.
• 41:22
  You have contacts, let's figure out a way to maximize them.
• 41:28
  I just, you know, for me it's going to all these things, you know, and I realize the bar associations are great.
• 41:36
  I love going to the Essex County Bar Association events and golf outings and stuff.
• 41:41
  I like going to Mars County for their golf outing.
• 41:43
  I like, and I probably should go to some of their other events here and there.
• 41:47
  I just haven't been able to.
• 41:48
  ~ although
• 41:51
  schedule wise this coming school year might be a little easier for certain things.
• 41:56
  ~ you know I just joined a couple other things recently that might be a good fit.
• 42:02
  ~ and even if it's just reconnecting or furthering relationships with people I already know and I'm friends with, that can only lead to more business.
• 42:13
  And I don't my area practice collection law
• 42:19
  I'll joke around about it.
• 42:20
  If you told me I was doing this out of law school, you told me been crazy.
• 42:24
  I never you know, I thought it was a four letter work.
• 42:26
  You know, you only hear in law school it's we're gonna be a corporate lawyer, we're gonna be a big litigator, federal litigation, or we're gonna do bankruptcy work, or we're gonna
• 42:34
  do this work, we're gonna do that mergers and acquisitions and collection work?
• 42:39
  What you know, what schlub is gonna do that?
• 42:41
  And I enjoy it.
• 42:43
  I do it for lawyers and accountants and business people who have judgments and who have
• 42:49
  referrals.
• 42:49
  I mean, listen, everyone every law firm has someone that owes them money.
• 42:52
  And if they don't,
• 42:53
  I think everyone would like to know what that accounting system looks like and billing.
• 42:56
  So
• 42:57
  absolutely.
• 42:57
  And I that now that's become my little niche over the last fifteen, twenty years of just honing things little by little.
• 43:07
  Got to know people, met someone, and it was like, ~ okay.
• 43:11
  Got gotten the right people and then that network spreads out over time and it really just
• 43:21
  you know, the right people at the right time and then it it's just furthering the relationships with people.
• 43:28
  And I think one of the things about that too, that now that you're mentioning it, it is a little unique about your firm.
• 43:32
  Not unique, but it it shows just how important it is to do that, is that all of your attorneys have a very clear niche.
• 43:36
  You have some with cryptocurrency, you have Richard West West practices dealing with professionals.
• 43:40
  So I think each person that has a practice and that has their own book, they've really ditched down and really everyone when they meet someone, it's not just, I do general
• 43:48
  litigation.
• 43:48
  People know exactly what to go for them for to them for.
• 43:51
  And it could be a really small thing, but they're getting the referrals for it because it's either
• 43:54
  something that another firm doesn't necessarily specialize in, or it's just really easy to remember what they do.
• 44:00
  Right.
• 44:01
  So like the professional licensing space, there's a couple firms or or there have been firms in the past of there are a handful of really good attorneys.
• 44:09
  Rich West is one of those good attorneys who knows the players and knows what to do for the professional licensing.
• 44:16
  ~ and it's all about relationships.
• 44:19
  ~ you know, you've got a the board members have to know someone, you know.
• 44:27
  He gets referrals because people trust him and he may and he tells people the truth, whether they like to hear it or not.
• 44:32
  Here's the best argument.
• 44:34
  They may not buy it.
• 44:35
  This is what we're looking at.
• 44:36
  ~ cryptocurrency, There are firms that do it, but on the you know, on the stuff that Andy does, not a lot of people are the smaller firm, you know, the smaller, quote unquote,
• 44:48
  smaller workload.
• 44:50
  Andy fits a niche that is, or niche niche.
• 44:54
  that is really, really good.
• 44:58
  David Maitland does, you know, real estate litigation.
• 45:01
  He's got ~ you know an expertise and does you know sub separation work.
• 45:05
  You know, not a lot of people do that type of work.
• 45:07
  ~ Bart Klein and I do collection work.
• 45:10
  He does more of the you know, construction space, construction warehouse, know, receivables, and I I do more of the professional services and consumer debt and
• 45:23
  It's a niche.
• 45:24
  People don't always do it.
• 45:25
  And you know, law firms will call me.
• 45:27
  Hey, we got this judgment.
• 45:28
  ~ client doesn't want to pay for collecting anymore.
• 45:31
  I'm like, is there any money out there?
• 45:33
  You know, or is it viable?
• 45:35
  And yeah.
• 45:38
  But you know,
• 45:39
  these law firms, you know, also most of them don't do contingency work.
• 45:43
  So it's it's also a different niche for me because most of my collection work is contingency.
• 45:49
  I'm willing to take the risk with clients.
• 45:51
  Yeah, we're
• 45:52
  back to you betting on yourself again.
• 45:53
  So it's
• 45:54
  a sign you're good at what you do.
• 45:57
  as we wrap up, one question that I would have, and I think part of the whole point of this podcast too is that other managing partners can weigh in.
• 46:03
  So maybe someone will have an answer for this too.
• 46:06
  if you could wave a magic wand and fix one thing about the firm that you're like, this has been the most challenging thing.
• 46:11
  And I know we've talked a little bit about it today, what would that be?
• 46:18
  think if we had laid out and stayed true to our core principles, which you know for our firm is different than other firms.
• 46:28
  We've always operated lean
• 46:33
  Where the attorneys do most of their own work, we don't need a lot of staff, we don't need a lot of you know, we don't need a lot of associate help.
• 46:41
  We've had law clerks in the past, you know, law students who can do some of the research, and maybe if they're really good, can do some of the drafting, some better than others,
• 46:49
  but where was a cheaper alternative than getting, you know, full-scale associates or whatever.
• 46:56
  I wish we had been more forceful on.
• 47:02
  Hey, maybe certain things we shouldn't have gone down this path.
• 47:06
  We should have tried something else.
• 47:08
  ~ maybe different firm management software.
• 47:14
  maybe would have been better.
• 47:16
  Maybe certain if we'd looked for junior or senior associates who maybe have a small book but can generate or can do some of the work that we have a little easier, that might have
• 47:30
  been a better fit.
• 47:31
  ~
• 47:34
  Maybe not investing as much staff when we had in the past would have been better.
• 47:39
  ~ but I think if we just had stayed true to the goals and had made ~ or had all been on the same page on certain decisions.
• 47:51
  But I but then the firm's changed over time, different names, different entities, different whatever, and you know, wish we knew, you know, hindsight's twenty twenty.
• 48:00
  You know, certain partners we thought were
• 48:02
  really be great and work out followed patterns where didn't work out.
• 48:08
  You know, certain partners wanted something different.
• 48:11
  Certain partners just really weren't a good fit.
• 48:15
  ~
• 48:17
  You're not gonna you're not always gonna know that until they're in.
• 48:22
  But maybe I don't know, I wish we had done you know, I wish I were a baller, I wish I were a you know, a taller, I wish whatever that song is.
• 48:32
  Yeah, I wish
• 48:32
  I had done a lot of things.
• 48:33
  I wish we, you know, I wish we had a bigger roster of clientele and more, you know, certain type of work that maybe could feed off of, you know, associates or have that type
• 48:44
  of practice, but we don't, and it's fine.
• 48:47
  I ~ but knowing that now, I think we're poised if we can get a couple people in here in the next six to twelve months and continue growing the what we're doing.
• 49:02
  I think we're looking at a good good future coming up.
• 49:05
  So that, you know, is we're here now.
• 49:08
  You know, I can't go back and change it.
• 49:10
  Magic wands would be lovely, but it not happening.
• 49:13
  Well, that's it's all part of the learning lessons, right?
• 49:15
  I think everyone wishes they'd done a lot of things different.
• 49:17
  ~ but I with time I wanna thank you for being on today.
• 49:21
  And if anyone knows any law firms in New Jersey that are looking to get stop doing the administrative work and just do the legal work, it sounds like Jonathan would be a good
• 49:28
  person to reach out to.
• 49:30
  And thank you for being on with us today.
• 49:32
  problem.
• 49:33
  Thank you, Amanda, as always.