Latest / Beyond The Trailhead / Backcountry Garage Director JM Fabrizi | Beyond the Trailhead Podcast Ep. 49

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Backcountry Garage Director JM Fabrizi | Beyond the Trailhead Podcast Ep. 49 · Beyond The Trailhead

• speaker-0: All right everyone, welcome back to another incredible episode of Beyond the Trailhead. This week we've got a great guest, ⁓ Jan Fabrizi with Backcountry Garage. How are you, Jan? speaker-1: I'm doing great, Craig. How are you? speaker-0: Good, good. Well, I just want to say first thank you for being on. ⁓ we actually ran into each other, we were talking before we got on how I had just run into you at the airport when we were leaving ⁓ leaving the airport back at switchback, yeah. Yep. And we were chatting and stuff like that and then ⁓ reached out later on about having you guys on. I think anybody who's listening right now who's in the outdoor space has probably bought something from backcountry.com before. ⁓ Has something I've ordered a ton of stuff before on backcountry. And you guys have a new kind of avenue that I had heard about on Backcountry Garage. And I'll let you kind of go into that a little bit more. But I think it's a great opportunity for people to kind of hear a little bit more about it. ⁓ and then how others can kind of, you know, if you have a brand and you want to reach out to you guys and everything else. So I guess before I spoil everything and and all that good stuff, go ahead and just kind of Tell us a little bit about your background first of all and then ⁓ a little bit about ⁓ backcountry garage. speaker-1: Absolutely. Yeah. So I have been in the outdoor industry since basically I can remember. ⁓ you know, I grew up ⁓ as a consumer in it, ⁓ hiking, biking, skiing, doing all of the things. ⁓ I was I was ⁓ I grew up in Southern California in a small mountain town called Big Bear Lake and that's really where I fell in love with the outdoors and okay it kind of just naturally progressed from there. ⁓ ski raced as a kid and then eventually made my way out to Salt Lake City ⁓ to pursue the greatest snow on earth. And so ⁓ I've been in it for for for the majority of my life. ⁓ more recently I've worked at a brand called Koala Tree. And I I started working there in 2017 and that brand actually started in 2010 on a organic farm in in Colorado. ⁓ and then in 2016 time came to the came to Salt Lake and I came on shortly thereafter. And I was there for the better part of nine years. and running the day-to-day for that business from 2021 onward until this past March when ⁓ Backcountry actually acquired the brand Qualitary. And Qualitree is an outdoor apparel and accessories brand. ⁓ we're We're best known for a product called our trailhead pants, which is a it's an outdoor pant, very versatile, durable, has very deep pockets, which a lot of people love, four-way stretch, ⁓ and packs right into itself, ⁓ into the into the pocket. ⁓ we also make things like a cachoula blanket, which is a three in one blanket, rain poncho, travel pillow, waterproof blanket all in one. We make some really cool hoodies and other products out of recycled coffee grounds and plastic bottles. And we have a whole new line that speaker-0: Wait a second, I have a question. You Yes. You said recycled coffee grounds. speaker-1: And plastic bottles. Yeah. speaker-0: How you how do you do r recycled coffee grounds and plastic bottles? speaker-1: Yeah. So we we work with a ⁓ specialty factory out of Taiwan that has a proprietary fabric ⁓ where they're able to incorporate these really unique inputs. And fortunately, you know, it's not just a great story, but it also helps in terms of the functionality of the of the products as well. ⁓ you know, coffee is naturally antimicrobial, ⁓ which is really great from a stink standpoint. And Yeah, we've we've worked with them and and we've then incorporated it into everything from socks to button down Ts, ⁓ rain shells. Yeah, you y you name it denim. ⁓ we have a we have a denim that we make that uses a waterless dye method, so speaker-0: Pretty cool. Yeah. No. Okay. So keep going. Sorry, I just had to cut you off there 'cause I was like, man, I've never heard of coffee grounds and Rosegglo Plastics, so that's cool. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. So ⁓ so like I said, in March, ⁓ Backcountry purchased Squala Tree. I you know, we were right here in each other's backyards. And ⁓ long story short, Qualitree became the first ⁓ brand in Backcountry Garage. And really, you know, coming from the emerging or smaller brand space. I was very familiar ⁓ of years and years and years of trying to kind of knock down doors and get into larger retailers. And we did have success ⁓ in doing that with some of them. But one of the things that I always felt was that as an emerging brand in working with a larger retailer, you know, you often get lost in a sea of of skews. And it's really hard to kind of tell your story and and share. ⁓ what makes your product unique and compelling to that retailer's audience when you're sitting alongside all of these other massive brands ⁓ you know who are are heavily investing ⁓ with said retailer to you know gain the the virtual shelf space ⁓ so to speak. And so as we were kind of discussing this quality acquisition and we were ⁓ you know concepting and brainstorming the idea around backcountry garage, that was really one of the core pillars is how do we support emerging brands in the outdoor industry and make sure that, you know, backcountry carries two hundred thousand SKUs. how do we make sure that a brand doesn't get lost in that large sea of of product? speaker-0: ⁓ wow. That's I can't imagine. So I I stopped by backcountry one time when I was in ⁓ Utah for some I can't remember what it was, pr a conference or something like that. And and I didn't realize you guys were based out of there until a couple of years ago. And I stopped by and I was like, Man, this place is you know, the storefront's ⁓ of small, but the online presence and the warehouse and everything is is massive and stuff like that. So So from going from from the gar like from the store to the garage, ⁓ what what have you seen? Like what are some wins that you're trying to look for with ⁓ with the garage brand? speaker-1: Yeah, for sure. I mean, to backtrack a little, you know, backcountry is very e-com focused and we are actively growing our retail footprint. But at the same time, ⁓ we feel like our core competency is very much so e commerce. And so that's where we're really hoping to be able to win, at least initially, with these brands that are in backcountry garage. ⁓ you know, what I like to the way I like to kind of explain it to people is we've all had that amazing experience of going into a specialty retail location and chatting with the store sales associate and and really getting that white glove service from someone that's extremely knowledgeable. ⁓ and what backcountry is doing is we're basically seeking to give that to the customer ⁓ where the customer wants to meet us, which as we all know increasingly becomes, you know, online on their on their Phone, computer, tablet, et cetera. And we're doing that through a lot of cool programs. You know, a lot of people are familiar with with kind of the the gearhead initiative, ⁓ making sure that, you know, anytime someone chats into, you know, customer support or a gearhead, that that gear head really knows and is knowledgeable about the, you know, area in which the the the customer is asking about. ⁓ we we have incredible people at backcountry that ⁓ are you know are involved in all sorts of activities under the sun. And so it's it's the it's really cool on that front. We also have some new and exciting loyalty programs like Summit Club Plus, where we are ⁓ yeah, giving really unique perks to, you know, those high value customers that are coming and shopping at backcountry frequently and and what that looks like is, you know, these ten percent cash back on every order. ⁓ and that's a backcountry funded initiative. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: As well as ⁓ you know, other perks, et cetera. And so, ⁓ what we're doing with Backcountry Garage is saying, okay, if e com is the core competency and we want to make sure that an emerging brand that we're working with isn't getting lost, how can we create this collection of brands and products so that people can go and actually have it be a place of discovery on backcountry.com. Yeah. You know, people know backcountry is a place that they can go and buy. product from the biggest name brands. And we also want it to be a place where people can come and discover new and and local and nature and emerging brands. all the while having that credibility of saying, like, okay, that country kind of kind of is very familiar. They're subject matter experts, and there's a reason why there's this curated, you know, selection of of brands in this program. speaker-0: So, so for the garage, you know, for a lot of people that we have on this podcast are like a lot of garage grown type of companies. And then we also have large, large businesses on here. ⁓ you know, for someone who's a small, small business, how how are you guys finding those brands to kind of bring like what differentiates a garage brand? brand on backcountry garage versus just like, hey, we just want to put you straight into backcountry.com. speaker-1: So I'll answer your your first question, which is how do we find said brands? And the answer to that is in a wide variety of different ways. ⁓ the easiest way to find backcountry garage is to go on Google and type in Backcountry Garage. You'll see the collection on on Backcountry, and we actually have an entire FAQ section ⁓ that answers a ton of a ton of questions, probably more than we can get into on this podcast. We also have a ⁓ form. where brands can actually go and apply that's on that page ⁓ to be a part of of this program. So some of it is sort of, you know, inbound br in brands coming to us. And the other side of it is us going to brands, right? We have a ton of, like I said, people here at backcountry that absolutely get after it. And a lot of people that are you know, outdoor gear nerds like myself have a pretty good pulse on what's new and emerging in the space. And so yeah, we're constantly chatting internally about, you know, kind of what we're what we're seeing ⁓ from a new brand standpoint, as well as from a ⁓ as well as from the standpoint of, you know, existing brands that are in the space but but that are kind of doing something really unique and differentiated or or or have some traction, ⁓ you know, that we want to be a part of. speaker-0: Yeah. No, that's cool. So so now how how long has Garage been going ⁓ for you all? And then how how many brands do you have currently or you know, is there a a like a point where you're like, Hey, I think this is enough or could it potentially kind of is it, you know, grow into its own thing? Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, I would say that we are far less focused on the number of brands in the program as we are on making sure that the brands in the program are really bringing something unique and differentiated and and compelling to the table. ⁓ you know, we we all love the outdoor industry and we all know that there's a lot of sameness out there. And so when a when we see a brand that's doing something different or kind of has like a unique value prop. ⁓ maybe even in the same category as as a well established player, but ⁓ you know, that that that that's kind of leaning into a differentiated angle. That's what we're really looking for. As far as brands that we have on site currently, ⁓ you know, we have about seven that is growing very quickly. you know, we'll probably be at around twelve in the in the next couple of months. ⁓ awesome. And yeah, we have sixty plus brands that are in the pipeline and we're actively chatting with ⁓ you know, about being in involved with the program. speaker-0: That's awesome. ⁓ so so I guess I have another question, but I'm gonna ask this one first. ⁓ is there like a graduation program, so to speak, where someone would graduate from basically from garage to regular store, or it'd be like, hey, there's still a unique, ⁓ you know, a unique player in the game, so to speak. speaker-1: Yeah, less of a graduation program, but more of a kind of lasting partnership that we're trying to establish. And so, you know, we're giving some brands some very unique perks as ⁓ that are part of Backcountry Garage that they wouldn't otherwise get and really giving them some love that is highly unusual for a large retailer when it comes to ⁓ emerging brands. Our hope is is at the end of, you know, call it a two-year period, we are in a place with these brands where it's like, hey, can we, you know, keep the keep the music going because this has been a really great partnership and it and continues to be a really great partnership from both the brand side as well as the as well as the backcountry side. And so hopefully there is no sort of graduation. Hopefully we continue work with brands in these in in this program and on backcountry more broadly, ⁓ you know, into the into the foreseeable future. speaker-0: Yeah. No, that's cool. I I like that you're I'm I'm assuming, of course, that and I know that you guys are always thinking ahead and everything else and it's not like a just a one time thing. It's like, hey, this is great. ⁓ when you're finding those brands and everything else, you know, ⁓ I was just an outdoor retailer, for example, and I'm sure you guys are looking at all kinds of different unique products and everything else for, you know, both backcountry but also for the garage. So Are were you there kind of walking around, looking around at different products and stuff like that as well? speaker-1: was. I was, yeah. And we had a really unique ⁓ activation at at Outdoor Retailer. If you don't mind, I'd love to kind of tell you about that a little bit. Those that that weren't there or or didn't hear of it. But ⁓ basically what we did is backcountry used its booth to highlight brands that are either currently in or or going to be a part of this program. And so we had a twenty f twenty by forty booth at Outdoor Retailer. And ⁓ speaker-0: Yeah, go. speaker-1: We brought, you know, twelve emerging brands to ⁓ to outdoor retailer with us and basically gave them a place to display their ⁓ product that was branded. ⁓ and you know, again, I just think back to like qualitary days. How amazing to be able to have a retailer that's kind of like getting behind your your brand in this way at at a trade show. And, you know, not to mention it was fantastic to to see kind of that renewed energy at at Outdoor Retailer. Something that we did also beyond just showcasing backcountry garage brands was we, as backcountry, had a physical buyer desk that was part of our trade show booth on the floor ⁓ where there were buyers throughout the duration of the show. ⁓ And one of the things that backcountry absolutely is not is a retailer that sends buyers to a trade show where the buyers walk around with their badge flipped over because they don't want to chat with, you know, the brands that are on the show floor. And so we kind of took that. ⁓ you know, we've all been there, right? And and I'm sure you've seen that too. Yeah. but we kind of took that and speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: completely flipped it on its head and said, Hey, not only are we going to have a lot of buyers at this show, ⁓ but we're actually going to put a physical desk in our booth and keep buyers there the entire time so that any brand on the show floor could come chat with us and get a better understanding of both what backcountry is, what backcountry garage is, how they might be ⁓ able to join the program, as well as just get a better understanding of, you know, look. I'm an emerging brand. What does it take to work with a large a large retailer like like backcountry? So it was a really successful trade show for us and and really cool opportunity for us to display those in the in the program. speaker-0: That's I mean I think that's great that you guys had a a spot that people could come to you instead of that 'cause I always feel like when I see the badge flipped over, I feel you know, they try to hide it and then you're going, but I'm just gonna now approach you more because it's flipped over and now I know that you might be somebody that I need to talk to more. Right. 'Cause sometimes it's hard to read those badges to from from far away or you're looking for a certain color and everything else. ⁓ So at that booth, when you have people coming to you, I think a lot I think a lot more people need to do something like that where they ⁓ have that forward-facing booth presence and can have a lot more interaction. And I think they'll they can meet a lot more more brands and stuff like that as well. You know, I think for all retailers, I think that's a great idea. If if retailers, if you're listening, like, you know, copy that idea so that people can ⁓ come to you instead of them trying to sneak behind you during another conversation. So ⁓ so for from those conversations that you had from people coming to talk to to you guys at your booth, ⁓ what were some kind of unique things? I mean, if you can or can't, but like some brands that you're like, ⁓ you're excited to see on on Garage in the in the near future. speaker-1: Yeah, we had a ton of brands come by. Like I said, we have kind of this application or form, if you will, ⁓ that we can fill that that brands can fill out ⁓ so that we can learn a little bit more about about businesses. and we had a ton of we had a ton of interest and we had a ton of folks that were wanting to be involved with the program and also folks that came by and and it was like, Hey, ⁓ you know, maybe this is a conversation to to continue in a year from now when you get set up with a 3PL because you're currently shipping out of your garage and we would love to re engage at that point and kind of here's our here's our contact information. So, you know, it was really across the board and it was nice. The feedback from the brands that were in the booth, ⁓ you know, I think I think that there was a bit of skepticism, ⁓ to be completely honest about what outdoor retailer was going to be this year. ⁓ new new location in Minneapolis. ⁓ you know, obviously has quite the history. And ⁓ I think that the outdoor retailer team did a fantastic job at reinvigorating it in a big way. We were excited to be there. ⁓ you know, even just the first day of the show, being ⁓ you know, walking in and seeing all of these people outside the doors. waiting for doors to open, I was like, ⁓ my gosh, like I haven't seen this in in in quite some time. And so they did a really good job and and I'm excited about the about the future of the trade show and and who it'll bring. And ⁓ yeah, hope to see some some large brands and and retailers have more of an established presence there ⁓ moving forward. speaker-0: Yeah. So I guess ⁓ my ⁓ question that I have now is here at Backcountry Garage and ⁓ I think I've talked to a few people before and ⁓ it kind of comes to that whole like instead of competing with each other, it's how can we help each other out, right? And I know I O R I saw that like ⁓ Garage Grown Gear had something, you know, similar where it was like some boot space and then some ability to have some of their the brands that they have as well. So how how can How do you think at least we can work together as ⁓ in in your instance, online retailers and help other brands grow as opposed to just competing? 'Cause I feel like ⁓ and I s I feel like a broken record every time I say it, but I feel like if we all help each other grow, the industry will grow and the outdoor space will grow and we'll all be more successful, right? speaker-1: Hmm. Yeah. I think that the way that we're approaching it is from, you know, the rising tide lifts all ships philosophy, right? Again, going back to that example of your favorite specialty retail location, you know, there there's a reason why you go into physical stores and really chat with people that are are experts. And ⁓ if you go into a physical location and learn about a brand that Is in ⁓ into a specialty retailer and learn about a brand that is in Backcountry Garage, right? You know, whether you you become familiar with that brand at the specialty retailer, whether you purchase that product at the specialty retailer, et cetera, it is very helpful from a brand standpoint in terms of getting your product out there and getting it shown and getting it known, right? And I think that that is super beneficial across the board. ⁓ and it it goes the same way, right? Like, People are seeing brands that are highlighted in highlighted in this program and then and then going ⁓ you know, to to physical locations as well. And so yeah, what we're trying to do is, you know, say, look, where we can provide the most value is is on e-com through the gear head difference. And and that's where we wanna double down. And that's really what we wanna pursue. And if there's opportunities for your brand to grow. ⁓ through specialty, like that's something that ⁓ you know, we are supportive of. I come from direct consumer world, right? Where ninety plus percent of our sales throughout the history of the company were ⁓ through our Shopify site and through crowdfunding campaigns. And so I'm a firm believer that, you know, brand builds brand. When you can get a customer to go and be bought into your brand and purchase on your website and be tuned into your newsletter and be excited for what's coming next. Like that's fantastic. ⁓ but you know, there's the fact of the matter that we have a a huge population and people like to shop in a bunch of different places. Some people only open one single app to, you know, make their purchases, being Amazon. And so that's it, you know, that goes into another discussion of like, ⁓ well, where is product selling? ⁓ which actually we could We could get into too if you'd like. We have pretty unique opportunity for brands with marketplace representation. Yeah. but my point is is that, you know, we feel like we want to double down on our core competency and and for brands, you know, ⁓ spreading the spreading the awareness and and ultimately spreading the stoke is is is key to success. And we're we're trying to be a partner that helps do that. speaker-0: Yeah. No, I think that's great. I I I love it when businesses, companies, employees love to just grow each other instead of that nitpicking that you hear behind the scenes of like, ⁓ this brand and this brand and they're having that whole restaurant war, so to speak, where like the restaurant rates the b other restaurant really bad and vice versa and then and and all that stuff. So ⁓ why don't you go a little bit into that whole ⁓ the benefit about the the marketplace ⁓ and Amazon and everything else too. speaker-1: Yeah, for sure. So backcountry has some really great partnerships with marketplace partners, ⁓ from Nordstruns to Macy's to Target Plus, and then of course to Amazon. ⁓ and we'll just chat through Amazon quickly because, you know, that's a big one and and a lot of you know, especially emerging brands in the outdoor space are are sort of skeptical ⁓ about how to approach it or have tried to approach it and had a pretty difficult time. and so I can just talk you through my personal experience of trying to have success on Amazon with with Koala Tree. Yeah. What that looked like is basically we would we would be set up on a FBA model ⁓ fulfilled by Amazon. And the benefits to that, ⁓ amongst others, are that you are prime eligible as a brand, right? Amazon warehouses your inventory, customer with prime goes on to Amazon, places it. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: And ⁓ places the order and it ships and it gets to you in a day. ⁓ but there are also challenges, right? It's it's a challenge to ⁓ as a small brand have the bandwidth to manage the channel and to get set up. And then also you're dealing with, you know, fees, ⁓ commissions, shipping, et cetera, et cetera, ⁓ on that on that FBA model. And if you do an FBM model, ⁓ you know, kind of same thing. you're dealing with a lot, you're also then oftentimes not prime eligible. You know, your your three PL doesn't meet the same SLAs that that ⁓ that the that Amazon can and does. Well backcountry is really unique in that we are a large retailer and we ship, you know, a million packages plus a year. And ⁓ we are able to fulfill ⁓ with our marketplace partner, ⁓ Amazon on seller fulfilled Prime. And so what this looks like from the brand side is instead of, you know, having being set up on an FBA model, if we're already working with a brand as part of Backcountry Garage or Backcountry more broadly, we hold the inventory, we write purchase orders, and we are able to alleviate a lot of the burden of managing this huge other channel for brands. ⁓ by having us service it. The product is also sold on the backcountry store on Amazon, which is a an ⁓ again, it's a great place for, you know, sort of product discovery, right? You might be going and and searching for, you know, most popular backpack on Amazon on the backcountry store. And all of a sudden it's like, ⁓ this is a cool, you know, emerging brand that I just found out about that's sold on the platform that wouldn't otherwise be that now I'm gonna check out. So Lot more we could get into there. Yeah. ⁓ but that's the that's the gist of of marketplace representation. And then we also do that same ⁓ fulfillment from owned inventory to these other marketplaces like a Nordstrom, like a Macy's, et cetera. speaker-0: Yeah. No, that's that's a I think that's a huge benefit that a lot of people don't understand unless they've gotten into the Facebook th side of things, or not Facebook, but the Amazon side of things. ⁓ I've had a few of my clients who have, you know, been a part of Amazon and the headaches that all entail, especially when you're doing it on your own, right? Like I think that's the hardest part is you're running a business on your own and now you've got you're wearing fifty different hats. And so if you can partner with or a retailer like yourselves, ⁓ then that alleviates one of those things. You could take one of those hats off and throw it away and just give it to you, so to speak. So that's cool. So are there any headaches since, you know, 'cause on the show we always like to talk about ⁓ the wins, but also like the O crap moments and stuff like that. So are there any like O crap moments that have kind of shown up or maybe some stories that through quality or even just the garage that you're like, ⁓ we've We've learned from this and we're moving on from that. speaker-1: How much time do you got, Craig? ⁓ any business is really challenging. Yeah. At the end of the day. ⁓ you know, I I share with people that ⁓ I work at an apparel brand or I work with a out at a outdoor retailer in the case of backcountry or apparel brand in the case of Qualitary. And you know, a lot of the response is like, ⁓ man, that's that's a really competitive industry and that's really the one must be really it's like every single job and industry is extremely competitive. Yeah. ⁓ and so, you know, whether you're a a retailer or a brand that's at the size of a, you know, backcountry or, you know, you name big brand ⁓ out there, everyone has challenges. And I think that, you know, coming from small brand ⁓ space, you have this perception that when you get into this much larger organization that like all the T's are gonna be crossed and the I's are gonna be dotted. ⁓ and you get into it and you're like, ⁓ No, it's all the same. Like we just have different challenges and problems and and obstacles than we did when I was in the smaller space. ⁓ but challenges and problems and obstacles nonetheless. So ⁓ yeah, I think I can share kind of two things. If you want to hear like a ⁓ an ⁓ shit moment from Koala Tree, ⁓ we did a deal where we were rolling into about twelve hundred retailers, ⁓ retail locations across the nation with a big box retailer. And we were under the gun. The product was already late. We had the product land in our fulfillment center. I went personally to inspect the product, to, you know, holding my breath, mind you, to like, please hope I there's nothing wrong with this. Well, the UPC barcodes were not applied. And so in about four days We ha my team, a very small team at Koaletry had to go in and relabel about thirty thousand units worth. ⁓ but I think coming out of that, you know, it's like anything else. When you make it through the storm, you're like, We can do anything. We can do absolutely anything, you know what I mean? ⁓ so that that was one that I can share ⁓ from the from the you know coaletry side. speaker-0: Product. Yeah. Do you have any good paper cuts from applying all those codes and stuff? speaker-1: ⁓ my gosh. Yeah, it was it was insane. I I came out of there looking like I was just tarred and feathered. They had the little backs on the UPCs and they were sticky and you're just f you know, taking them off and putting them on the thing and anyways, it was pretty funny. ⁓ and then I would just say, you know, speed. I always want things to move faster, whether that was at Koala Tree or whether that's at at backcountry. And we're actively working on on, you know, improving onboarding and and but the fact of the matter is is that, you know, there's a lot of systems and processes and we are a larger organization. And so yeah, getting getting the ⁓ getting to the to the fun part, right? Where we're actually selling product and brands are onboarded and it's like, okay, now we can start doing the the real work. ⁓ you know, is never as fast as I would like it. But There's a reason why we have to be very thorough in making sure that all of the boxes are checked ⁓ as we're as we're onboarding new brands. speaker-0: Yeah. No, I can't imagine the the system and the the back end that's going on over at backcountry. And so for you to be able to add brands on there, whole other portion of the site and and then bringing someone on, making sure all the I's are dotted and T's are crossed is ⁓ is exc is exciting. And then it's also a headache because you know, you have I'm sure you have people that take a lot long like I have I have people all the time that I'm like, man, what is taking so long for them to sign this contract? I'm like, you already said everything and and it takes but when it's their spending money, it takes I do it all the time when I'm like, okay, I have to sign, you know, XYZ for, I don't know, a the HOA in the neighborhood. I'm like, I'm not gonna spend the ⁓ the money as long as I don't have to. Right. So I can invest it, you know. So ⁓ well that that's cool. ⁓ is there anything else before I go into like a little bit of a lightning round? Cause I know we have a hard cutoff for you. You're a super busy guy. ⁓ anything else about backcountry garage you want people to know ⁓ before we kind of go into a rabbit around? speaker-1: I would say go to the site, check it out. If you're not familiar with backcountry more broadly, ⁓ we have I might be slightly partial, but we have some of the coolest you know, rewards, loyalty programs, and general assortment ⁓ of any retailer in the in the outdoor industry. And we really care about making sure that we get it right. ⁓ so whether it's, you know, looking for that next portable power solution or going in you know, trekking in ⁓ in Nepal or or climbing a a eight thousand meter peak. ⁓ you know, we can be kind of that that one stop shop, not only to purchase product, but also from the standpoint of having people inside that are highly, highly knowledgeable and eager to, you know, kind of answer any questions under the sun and make sure that that you get ⁓ kitted ⁓ kitted out and geared up ⁓ in the in the best possible speaker-0: way. Yeah. No, I I've used ⁓ you guys before. I've called before and asked like all kinds of questions that I kind of knew the answer to, but I Googled it and then I wasn't sure and I was like, well let me ask speaker-1: Yeah, you like throw something into into AI and you're like Is this accurate? Like it would be really nice to like actually talk to someone that has done it, you know? speaker-0: Yeah, no, I like I watch that reel that ⁓ you know, when someone's dy lying there dead from climbing and they're like, No, actually you do need that double figure eight knot and stuff. And I'm just laughing my head off going, No, I've had that so many times. We just had a contest on ⁓ my my wife's social media for we're giving away a tent with DOD ⁓ tents. And ⁓ I had to pick a winner and I like, ⁓ let's maybe just use chat to really quickly pick a random winner. So I it asked for like a screenshot of all the names. I gave them all the names. Said, okay, based on this, I can give you ⁓ a thing, ⁓ a random person. And it just gave me a random person. And I was like, that person's not even in here. And it goes, ⁓ you're right. It's that name's not actually in there. Yeah. And so I had to like manually made this up. Yeah. I was like, What? I'm glad I didn't just post my results. Yeah. You know? So I had to go in and manually do it and then just like do, hey, pick one out of Give me a random number between one and you know a hundred or whatever. ⁓ but ⁓ no, that's cool. I mean, I ⁓ really appreciate you guys doing ⁓ the garage for those ⁓ smaller brands and everything. And I think ⁓ if if anybody's listening ⁓ and has a small brand out there, reach out to the program. ⁓ actually, how can they find out about Backcountry Garage or that program and that application? speaker-1: best way is just Google Backcountry Garage. It'll take you to the to the page on the site to the collection. You can see the brands that we currently have in the program. You can shop all of the product from the brands that are currently in the program. And then scroll down to the bottom of that page. You can see where the link to the application is, as well as a ton of really useful ⁓ you know, FAQ questions that o that answer some of the more ⁓ straightforward ⁓ questions. Perfect there about the program. speaker-0: Perfect. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I mean, I learned a ton. ⁓ I'm gonna go ahead and just ask you a few random questions about yourself. ⁓ just to get to know you a bit more, ⁓ and then I'll let you head out. ⁓ so first question I always ask everybody is your favorite national park? speaker-1: ⁓ man, good question. ⁓ I think Canyon Lands is probably one of the more underrated ones out there. Yeah. I had a really great experience on the White Rim Trail with some with some friends a couple of years back and it really just opened my eyes to ⁓ how much there is to to be explored. speaker-0: Okay. I I make so many notes when I'm asking this question because I'm like, okay, I need new trip ideas and everything else. I'm like, all right, cool. So white rim trail. ⁓ all right, and then ⁓ next question is tent, hammock, or cowboy camping? speaker-1: Ooh, what's the weather? speaker-0: Yeah, that's true. So let's say it's good let's say it's good weather. You have a lot of trees, but you have great views, so you can pick between any three or all three. Okay. speaker-1: Okay. I'm gonna say if I'm with a partner, tent is always nice. Yeah. hammock I do like, but if the duration of the trip is longer than a few days, I I start to get the ⁓ you know, cocoon back going, which which I don't enjoy too much. And if it's on a river and it's not raining, I am ⁓ I am glued to the cowboy camp. So roundabout way to answer your question, but but that would speaker-0: So every one of them. Or each one of them, so speaker-1: Yes, sleeping outside would be my answer to that question. Okay. speaker-0: Next question is ⁓ mountains, ⁓ coast or desert? speaker-1: Gosh, you're hitting me with the tough ones, Craig. It would definitely be between mountains and and coast. Yeah. I was so lucky to have grown up in Southern California where you can ski and surf in the same day. And yeah, I have a deep love of the of the ocean. Yeah. ⁓ but you know, I'm I'm here in Salt Lake with the the Wasatch right right out the back door. ⁓ and it'd be really, really hard to leave that. So probably even even split between those two. speaker-0: That's awesome. I I was just in San Diego last week for my first time. And that's the furthest south I've ever gone. And I was amazed. I was engulfed in the running community there for three days. And I met like Olympic gold medalists and stuff. And they're all runners. I'm going, man, if they came out to the East Coast, they would kill us. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. No, San Diego in particular. They're everyone's so active and just getting out and getting after it. It it's really cool. I always I always tell people like people that live in San Diego are like living in Southern California for the reasons that I think make Southern California so incredible. You know, they're surfing, they're running, they're doing all this stuff outside. It's awesome. speaker-0: That's great. Okay, ⁓ next is ⁓ worst trail snack you've ever tried. You gotta watch out because it could be on backcountry. So hmm. speaker-1: Not to just give you roundabout answers. Honestly, calories that I can get down are great. Yeah. I've gotten a little bit more into trail running and ⁓ over the over the last handful of years doing a of the Cirque series races and some larger races as of late. But ⁓ I would say worst snack is the lack of snack because there's not a worse feeling than being like so famished after a run. And you get the sick feeling. And so any calorie that I can get down, ⁓ or carbohydrate that I can get down while while I'm out there is ⁓ is a good one. speaker-0: Okay, so what's your what's your go-to snackman? Ooh. speaker-1: I would have to say if it's trail running, I'm really loving the carbs gels lately. They come in the ⁓ regular version, a salted version that has like four hundred and fifty milligrams of sodium and fifty grams of carbohydrate. I wasn't a gels guy up until like the last eighteen months. And then when I found out that I could basically in one gulp get like two hundred calories and fifty grams of car of of carbohydrate down, I was like, this is the biggest life hack ever. Yeah. So yeah, I've really been I've been leaning into the gels. speaker-0: That's crazy. I you're the first person 'cause most people say, ⁓ I hate gels 'cause like but I think you have to find the right gel because you get that like some gels they just make like burn your throat and everything else. And I yeah I did a gel speaker-1: Unsolicited endorsement here, but carbs gels have worked so well for me and also the SIS beta fuel gels have also been so so good. Those are kind of my two ⁓ t my two that I that I use constantly. Yeah. speaker-0: Awesome. ⁓ what is and this you might you might not be able to answer, but what's like the biggest ⁓ biggest spend you've ever done for your company? Or like biggest like splurge purchase? Hmm. speaker-1: I mean, biggest spend would probably be ads. Yeah, if I'm being honest with you. ⁓ yeah. ⁓ recommendation for all entrepreneurs out there that are planning on spending on on on advertising. Make sure that you ⁓ select your credit cards wisely because that will will pay dividends in the long end, ⁓ in the long run, especially if you're if you're traveling a lot. ⁓ yeah, but I think maybe more to your point, it's just speaker-0: ⁓ speaker-1: the constant decision whether to continue, you know, reinvesting ⁓ in what you're building or you know, really where to spend ⁓ more than more than anything, right? ⁓ speaker-0: Mm-hmm. So yeah. No, I I just had a conversation with somebody who they didn't understand ad spend. And we're I was trying to talk them through like, hey, it's really a no-brainer. And talking about some companies that they spend, you know, one, two, three million dollars on social media ad spend, and they're like, Well, how do they do that when all they sell is a stick? You know? And I'm like speaker-1: The answer is they sell a lot of sticks. speaker-0: A lot of sticks. So and they're like, I just don't get it. I'm like, Yeah, you don't you won't get it until you you do it. When I was doing wedding photography, I'd spend like fifty dollars on ads and I thought I was like blowing my bank account by going like, ⁓ is this really gonna work? And ⁓ and then it slowly goes up and up and up and you're like, ⁓ it may it works and then it just works more and more and more and more and more. speaker-1: It does, but you know, another thing is like having a solid strategy to fill the top of the of the funnel in terms of brand awareness through like organic through organic content is huge and costs next to nothing. And then I also think that having a product that is just so incredibly differentiated and compelling ⁓ is exceptionally helpful. Right. It's so much easier if you have, you know, word of mouth advertising and people going like, ⁓ my gosh, I can't not run with this X, Y, and Z trail running short because I bought this one and I just love it so much as opposed to trying to just spend, spend, spend on ads, you know, jamming jamming product down people's throats. speaker-0: Yeah. No, I just got a new quiver for my trail running vest for my polls. And it's a Dynema ⁓ quiver that this I just found on Amazon and I was like, wait a second, this is Dynema? Okay. It piqued my interest because it's Dynema. And then I was like, okay, I'll get it. And I've been running with it for the last like five days. And all the guys in my small group that we go trail running ⁓ on Saturday mornings, I'm like Guys, you have to get this. This is way better than the Solomon one and it's super light and it looks cool. ⁓ just don't get the same one as me, like the same color if you can help it. So speaker-1: I think I think trail running poles are like one of the most underrated products when it comes to trail running. And this is only in the United States because you go and you know, you look at ⁓ Europe and it they're everywhere. Yeah and they're definitely gaining a lot of traction here. But ⁓ man, I just ran ⁓ an ultra and I was looking at people and I was like, I cannot imagine what doing this race would be like. speaker-0: Without poems. speaker-1: Without poles. Yeah. You know? So yeah, I I love those. What kind you got? speaker-0: ⁓ so I just have some black diamonds Z ⁓ speaker-1: Yeah, the carbon Z, distance carbon Z. speaker-0: But now I'm looking at the ⁓ my gosh, what's the brand? ⁓ Lucky, the Lucky ones, because my friend, we went and did like a hundred miles about a few months ago. ⁓ wow and he had picked up in the like at REI in the resale section, there was a set there that were like 200 bucks. He got them for fifty dollars. Yeah. And they had scratches on them. And just having the gloves with the interlockingness and stuff, and I was like, ⁓ my gosh. speaker-1: Mikey. For sure. Black Diamond's got some new new ones out too. ⁓ that look pretty compelling. But yeah, I've I've had all of ⁓ They're ⁓ great. speaker-0: ⁓ I've got it I've gotta get some because the ones I have right now, I just want something that I can click in for I have a race in October. Okay. First what is it? The first ⁓ I don't know, the first like four miles is just like straight up and then after that I'm just gonna pack the poles and they're gonna be away the rest of the time 'cause it's just downhill and then flat. ⁓ but I just the poles I have right now, just the straps and everything else and it I'm just I'd rather click in and speaker-1: Right. speaker-0: After trying my friends, I was like, man, why haven't I gotten these before? I understand why people run with these Leckies or some other poles that have gloves with a click in system, a lock system. So awesome. Well, I maybe I'll see you at a race or something like that then. I've gotta come out to Utah and do a do a race out there. speaker-1: Make it make it happen. Yeah, dude. Careful though. Utah's a really a really compelling pr place. You come here a couple of times and you start spending some more time here and then you're like, ⁓ man, this place is ⁓ really hard to leave. speaker-0: Well I I make it the point to get out there probably like twice a year. Nice. And ⁓ I'm I'm there for photo shoots, but then I end up like just hanging out going like, Man, I just want to spend like an extra week or two here. So so 'cause I get burned out with the green tunnel that we have here in Georgia. I love it and everything else, but ⁓ there's just no crazy views and the weather is just like always hot. I mean, right now it's speaker-1: Yeah, see, you already know what I'm talking about. speaker-0: I went running this morning. It was 80 with like 95% humidity. And I thought I was just gonna like throw up and die. So spray it up. Well, awesome. ⁓ Jim, thank you so much. I I appreciate your time. And everybody, thank you so much for listening to Beyond the Trailhead. We look forward to ⁓ the next episode and Jim, I'll look forward to seeing you on the trail. Thanks so much. speaker-1: Thanks so much, Craig. Have a great rest of your day. Really appreciate you having me on. Take it easy.