Latest / Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor / The science of behaviour change and addiction, with Tara Hurster

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The science of behaviour change and addiction, with Tara Hurster · Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor

• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Tara Herster, welcome to the podcast.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Yes, great to have you on. We actually met only
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: about a week ago, wasn't it?
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: That's right. That's right. Danny Millman. Yeah. Yes. Quick turnaround here.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: No, it is. Exactly.
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: And I was speaking at a conference and we had
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: a quick chat afterwards and I'm like, I need to
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: get you on my podcast. Because I want to talk
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: about your clinic. So you are Tara Herster. You've got
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: the Tara Clinic, which stands for Therapeutic Addiction Recovery Assistance.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Hey, when you got that mnemonic, did you just go, yes?
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: Yes, I was driving along the M4 and it just
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: hit me in my face. I just thought, oh my gosh,
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: therapeutic addiction recovery, the first three letters of my name,
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: and it was never going to be Australia only. So
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: I needed to find a second A and there you go, assistance.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Assistance. Yeah, very cool. It's nice when you get it.
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: And then you look online, you go, has anybody got it?
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: Has anybody got it?
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Tara.com was already taken. So that's why it's the Tara Clinic.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: Right, gotcha.
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: So you are a psychologist who clearly works in addiction.
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: There's a really nice model on your website, which is
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: the taraclinic.com, which shows the, I guess, the risk continuum
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: that goes from low to moderate to high and then
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: acute risk and critical. And you're in this sort of
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: low risk to the middle of high risk, right? Which is,
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: I think a lot of people.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: will relate to.
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: I know a number of high-functioning alcoholics and high-functioning addicts,
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: and I think there's a lot of people, and maybe
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: I was flirting with that at some stages in my
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: life as well. So what is the line between just
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: a bit of overindulgence, a bit of just giving it
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: too much of a nudge, as we used to say
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: in the armed forces, what's the line between that and
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: an addiction?
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: It is the most common question that I'm asked and
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: it's actually a very low threshold. But basically, the way
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: that I look at it is if you have been
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: using or acting out, so doing gambling or porn or
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: whatever it happens to be, in such a way that
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: you are needing to do it more to get the
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: same amount of a buzz or doing it the same
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: amount of time or the same amount isn't giving you
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: the same buzz, then that's one of those criteria.
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: So you're developing tolerance, basically?
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: That's exactly right. Yes, yes. Another criteria is if you
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: have had multiple attempts to either stop or cut down
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: that have been unsuccessful. Another criteria is if you have
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: been injured or there have been some negative consequences as
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: a result of this practice. use or acting out and
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: that you keep going even with these negative consequences being
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: present and you being aware of those negative consequences. There's
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: a lot of different things. So basically, if you have
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: questioned whether or not it could be an issue, chances
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: are it's probably an issue. And it doesn't mean that
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: addiction is right, you've got this for the rest of
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: your life. It just means that we have identified that
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: there is a gap in our skills and awareness that
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: can be filled with the right skills and tools. And
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: when you practice the implementation of that over time, that's
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: what builds mastery. And so up until this point, you've
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: become a master at this coping strategy. And so what
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: we do at the Tara Clinic is we just teach
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: you over 160 different practical tools and strategies and techniques
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: so that you have alternative ways of coping.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: Very cool.
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: I would probably add in, as you were talking about that,
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: I thought maybe getting overly defensive when somebody is asking,
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: saying to you that they think this is a problem.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: That is a really good indicator of where you are
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: on the stages of change.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: Yes, okay.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the stages of change model goes from pre-contemplation to contemplation, preparation, action, maintenance.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: And at the Tara Clinic, we don't stop at maintenance.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: We believe that recovery is real. So if you're becoming
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: defensive about something, more than likely you're in the pre-contemplation
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: stage of change. And so in the pre-contemplation stage, that's
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: where we either don't believe that there's a problem or
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: we don't believe that there's a solution. So why would
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: we bother trying?
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that. Yeah, that's a nice little.
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: And I think the other thing for people, I like
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: that the stages of change model is that maintenance can
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: be a game of snakes and ladders, right? It's not like, yeah,
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: I've been six months good. I'm all good, right? You
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: can go right back to pre-contemplation. You can go right
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: down the ladder to contemplation and then you start again.
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: It's really quite interesting, isn't it?
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: It is very interesting. And the way that we look
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: at it at the Tara Clinic is it's important to
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: understand there is a really big difference between stopping and changing.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: Because stopping something, so focusing on abstinence or quote-unquote clean time,
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: I don't like those terms because that suggests that if
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: you're not clean, you're dirty and yuck. That's just not
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: a vibe for me. But if you focus on solely abstinence,
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: when we are stopping a behavior and focusing on stopping,
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: we're not actually stopping. filling that space in our mind
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: or our skills or anything with anything that's actually valuable
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: we're just creating a void and what happens with a
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: void is it gets filled with other stuff so if
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: we are mindlessly stopping something and really focusing on the
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: stopping we can fill that void with other things and
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: that's why i always say if you stop you swap
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: so instead of just stopping And swapping to, you know,
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: from alcohol to weed or from work to gambling or
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: whatever it happens to be. Instead of doing that, let's
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: focus on changing. And the way that you focus on
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: changing is identifying the driver behind the behavior. So what
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: is actually the purpose that we were trying to achieve
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: by using alcohol or drugs or gambling or whatever it is?
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: Is it that I needed to relax? Is it that
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: I wanted some confidence? Is it that I'm bored? Maybe
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: I'm tired. Maybe I'm struggling financially and I was hoping
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: to solve all of my problems with a quick win.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: Whatever the driver behind the behavior is, if you solve
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: for that, the other stuff goes away on its own.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: And that's what true recovery is, is redefining the nature
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: of your relationship to stress and distress.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very cool. Somebody once said, I can't remember
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: where I read this, about don't have dead man's goals.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: And I was like, that is frigging awesome.
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: So dead man's goals is I'm not going to drink
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: because dead people just don't do something. Yeah, because it's
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: more about the behavior change, right?
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: Which is really quite cool. And it's interesting.
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: There's a lady, Sarah Rushbatch, who's been on my podcast,
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: and she talks about grey area drinking, which I think.
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: Will identify a lot of your clients.
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: Grey area drinkers, grey area weed smokers, grey area cocaine,
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: where it's just like, yeah, I'm not an alcoholic.
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: But there's probably a bit of a problem if you.
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: Really look onto the hood, right? And this is the
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: kind of area that you're in, moving into.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: The, yeah, you do have addiction, but you're not at
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: risk of your life, I'm guessing.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: Yes. The real frustration that I have been facing throughout
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: my career, and I've been working in this industry for
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: over 15 years now, the frustration that I have been
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: facing is the narrative around addiction. is so cataclysmically wrong
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: that so many people don't see the problem because, oh, well,
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: hang on. I've still got a job. I still have
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: a house. I have most or all of my teeth.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: I'm not sleeping on the street. And, you know, I
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: can read and speak and do all those things. There
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: is this narrative that is perpetuated by people both media
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: and cinema and all of these things, that addiction is
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: only present in low socioeconomic areas with low socioeconomic people
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: who have completely hit rock bottom. And the stats show
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: that more people are employed full time that have an
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: addiction that are unemployed. Wow.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: Really? Yeah.
• 9:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And that's the thing is you only need two
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: or the 12 criteria. I didn't read them all out.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: I can grab the list and read all the criteria
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: out if you want, but you really only need to
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: meet two of those criteria over a 12 month period
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: to technically be classified under an addiction. Wow.
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: Is this a DSM thing?
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes. Do you want me to read you
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: the list?
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Let's go through the list.
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: But I think just before we go through the list,
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: so you are a psychologist.
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: I think we didn't say that at the outset. Oh, yes,
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: I am.
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: But you're also a pracademic in this area in that.
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: You do all the academic research, but you've had personal experience,
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: which we will get into in a second. But read
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: me out the 12 DSM criteria. And the listeners will
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: know you only need two out of 12. Two out
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: of 12. This seems to me like another DSM expanding
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: of diagnosis. But anyway, let's go through that before we
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: have that conversation.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Absolutely. So this is very generalized. So it's specific
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: to the DSM specifically talks about alcohol, opiates, different sort
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: of drugs categories, and then gambling. However, you can use,
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: you can look at this as any behavior. Okay. So
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: consuming or doing more of the substance or behavior for
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: longer than was originally intended. wanting to cut down or
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: stop or have tried unsuccessfully to cut down or stop,
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: spending a lot of time thinking about seeking out, using
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: or coming down from a substance or behavior, experiencing cravings
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: or a strong desire to use or act out, using
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: or acting out is getting in the way of being
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: able to fully engage in work, relationships or daily duties,
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: Continuing to use or act out despite it negatively impacting
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: on or causing problems for you socially or interpersonally. Important social,
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: occupational or recreational activities are given up or reduced due
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: to using. Using or acting out is impacting on your
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: physical safety or well-being. Continuing to use even when there
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: are physical or psychological problems. that were likely caused or
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: exacerbated by using the substance or doing the behavior. So
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: basically that's the negative consequences one. Noticing a tolerance to
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: the substance or noticing that you feel the need for
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: more of the substance or doing a higher risk taking
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: behavior to get the same buds or have the same
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: amount doesn't impact you as much as before. And finally,
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: experiencing withdrawals from the substance that you have used.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: Jumping. Jesus.
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: That puts about 90% of the population.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: See what I mean? That is a very reductive way
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: of looking at it because it comes along with... So
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: no one has a diagnosis of anything without a full
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: review and assessment by a trained clinician in that area. So...
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: just because you've heard me say this over the podcast,
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: it doesn't mean you can say, well, I've got this thing.
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: I think it's a great way. We use that in
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: our Recovery Essentials program, which is step two of our
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: three-step blueprint. We use that list there to make it
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: really clear to people to see, oh, oh, so there
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: was actually a problem. This is something that I can
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: start to work on and I can understand in what
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: areas of my life this has actually been impacting on.
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because the first step in behavior change is acceptance
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: that there is an issue to be changed first and foremost, right?
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: Or one of the first steps.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: Well, I guess that's the thing is the historical view
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: on addiction and its treatment was really stemming from the
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: 12-step program. And the Tyra Clinic doesn't align with the
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: 12-step program. That's an abstinence-based model. That's not what we do. However,
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: the steps within the 12-step framework have really been the
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: underpinning of what created the narrative, of what perpetuates the narrative.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: It's a frustration of mine. It works for a lot
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: of people. And it has helped millions of people. However,
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: one thing when I was first starting the Tara Clinic,
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: people used to ask me, why are you doing this differently?
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: Why don't you just use a 12-step model? And I said, well,
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: there's so many roads that lead into addiction. Why should
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: there only be one road out? And that's really why
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: I see the benefit of having multiple ways out of
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: a situation. And you know, in the military, you need
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: to have a backup for your backup for your backup plan.
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: Because no battle plan ever survives first contact with the enemy, right?
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: Exactly. So if you've only got one plan, phew.
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: Now, let's, because I did mention you being a pracademic,
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: can you talk about your own personal story?
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: Because I think it's important in this.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. So I love to tell people, that addiction
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: doesn't always look like what you think it looks like
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: and addiction doesn't always come from trauma, quote unquote. So
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: if you want to look at my trauma, I was
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: in year six and I was bullied for being really
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: tall and I heard that smoking stunts your growth. I
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: was in Germany. You could easily put a coin into
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: a machine on the street, press the button, out came
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: a packet of cigarettes. And I had seen the adults
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: in my life and in my family smoke since I
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: was a child. And I thought, hang on a minute.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: When they do it, they don't cough. I need to
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: teach myself to do this so that I don't cough
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: so that I can solve the problem, which was not
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: being tall. So I started smoking when I was in
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: year six because I heard it stunted your growth.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: In year six?
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: In year six, yes.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: Jesus.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes. And so I smoked and here's where
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: it gets crazy because a lot of people go, oh,
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: just harden up, you know, take a cup of concrete
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: and sort your shit out and then you should be fine.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: And I used to be one of those people early
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: in my psychology training because I stopped smoking in the
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: middle of my HSC trial exams, which in Australia is crazy.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: the period that is the most stressful of a teenager's
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: life and if you think about oh well hang on
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: cigarettes help you to calm down why on earth would
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: you stop smoking then well when i went into working
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: in the addiction space and i realized within three weeks
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: that i was a total idiot and that i had
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: completely misunderstood what addiction is and how recovery is a
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: process uh I realized that it just so happened that
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: I stepped into the action stage of change in the
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: middle of my HSC trials. And that's why it was
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: so easy because it was so easy for me to
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: move away from it. And sure, some of it was
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: my personality. Some of it was my natural gifts that
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: I brought into being a psychologist. However, the truth is,
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: is that I can give blow by blow indications with
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: practical examples of of when I was at different stages
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: of change between when I was in year six to
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: when I was in year 12 and then up into
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: maintenance and then as I got out of maintenance. So
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: the reason that I know that recovery is a thing
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: and it's not just maintenance is because I literally forgot
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: that I was in recovery for almost 10 years. It
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: was only two and a half years ago that I realized,
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: hang on a second, I had an addiction. Holy cow.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: And that's where you have fully redefined the nature of
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: your relationship to stress and distress. I don't utilize addictive
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: behaviors to cope with stress and distress because that's not
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: how I cope with stress and distress, right? So there
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: was no stopping because I didn't swap. It was change.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: It was true change. And I can go through every
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: step of the way if you're interested, but yeah, that's
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: my story. Right.
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: So now you deal with a lot of high functioning
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: professionals who are secretly struggling, right?
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: What Sarah used to, what.
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: Sarah defined as gray area drinkers or gray area fill
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: in the blank, right?
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: So what does addiction look like when somebody who is
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: nailing it at work and seems to have all their
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: shit together on the surface?
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: What does it look like underneath?
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: It's different from the insider's view compared to the outsider's view.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: From the outside, oftentimes, I talk about addiction kind of
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: like farting. It's only the people that are really close
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: to you that know that you do it.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: Awesome.
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: So, you're unlikely to go around ripping one in front
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: of your mates at the pub. I mean, unless that's
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: your thing. It might be your thing. I don't know.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: You were clearly never in the armed forces. Not only
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: will you rip it on their head. Anyway, so we
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: won't go there.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: That's too much pink eye. It's not okay. But it's,
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: you know, you're not going to go into a first
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: date with someone and, and.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: Fair enough, yeah.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: Put it all out there, right?
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: So most of the time it's very difficult for people
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: to see it from the outside. It's those subtle things
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: like things getting missed or maybe the little lies that
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: you start to catch out. And there's the real– sort
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: of questioning yourself of, am I crazy? Did they do that?
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: Didn't they do that? Wait a second. I thought they
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: said whatever, right? So there's a lot of that. But
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: most of the time from the outside, it can actually
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: look invisible. It looks like there's nothing wrong because, again,
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: people don't tend to drop their guts around the average person, right? However,
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: for the person themselves, it could be things like, More
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: often than not, you're leaning on your, you know, one vice, right? Oh,
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: I don't do that. So it's really not that bad.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: I just do this thing, like leave me alone, right?
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: I've got all my life together. I just have a
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: drink every night. You know, I just have one or two.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: Minimizing is a really big part and it is part
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: of what the brain does to try and help you
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: feel good about yourself. Our brain wants us to feel
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: good about ourselves because when we feel good about ourselves,
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: we're more likely to do more things. So the brain
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: was developed millions of years ago. And this guy here,
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: it is so old that it doesn't understand what indoor
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: plumbing is. This brain of ours still thinks that we
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: are being chased by tigers in a cave. And there's
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: three main sections of the brain. The back part of
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: the brain keeps us alive. The front part of the
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: brain deals with all the higher order thinking and problem solving.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: And the middle part of the brain is what our
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: threat response is attached to. And the middle part of
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: the brain is literally physically attached to the back part
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: of the brain. So that means that our threat response
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: is connected to our survival. And so if... If we
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: are feeling any form of discomfort, whether it's excitement discomfort,
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: scared discomfort, sad, angry, it doesn't matter, any big feeling,
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: whatever we have practiced the most comes easiest to us
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: at times of stress. So if you notice that when
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: you're feeling big feelings, that this is what you do
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: or this is how you behave, then that's an indication of, oh,
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: hang on a minute, my life is starting to narrow.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: I'm starting to feel restricted in my choices.
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: It's interesting because I used to say to people, I
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: often do at talks, that our brains have all worked
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: out how to deal with stress, right? And for some people,
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: me included, would be like, I'll sort this shit out,
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: just bring me alcohol, right?
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: Other people, it's food. Other people, it's other drugs, whatever
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: it may be.
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: But the brain is pretty smart, and it learns over
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: time how to deal with the stress hormones. And normally,
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: it's through a head of dopamine or dopaminergic chemicals, right?
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: Hence the alcohol, the drugs, the chocolate, the whatever, you know,
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: fill in the blank. But it's basically about soothing stress
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: and anxiety. And that's why we go for these things, right?
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: Because.
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: People don't take drugs or do alcohol because it makes
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: them feel shit. There may be that consequence tomorrow, but
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: you do it because of enjoyment.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: So the question then.
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: Becomes, where does the enjoyment of whatever it is, whether
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: it's alcohol, MDMA, cocaine, gambling, where does the enjoyment.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: become an issue?
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: And I guess the answer is linked to those things
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: that you talked about earlier on.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. So we're not saying here that.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: Forget about the legalities.
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: We're not saying you should never drink alcohol, never take cocaine,
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: never take whatever it may be, never gamble.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: We're not saying that.
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: It's when that behavior becomes problematic, whenever it's affecting your relationships,
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: it's affecting your work, it's affecting your life, it's affecting
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: your mental health, it's affecting, you know, you're dropping the
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: ball on other things. That's kind of what I'm getting
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: where you think.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: It's a problem.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: Yes. And the The way that I view it is
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: you are the expert in your life. I am only
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: your guide.
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: So if you yourself are looking at it going, well,
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: hang on a minute, I actually don't like that I
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: have hangovers every Sunday, right? So Chris Rain, he created the–
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: Hello Sunday Morning. It started out as a blog.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. I think I interviewed him
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: years ago. Hello Sunday. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: That wouldn't surprise me. Yes.
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: So when we met many, many years ago for the
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: first time, he was explaining to me how it all worked.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: And he just felt for himself that Sunday mornings really
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: sucked because he always had a hangover. Mm-hmm. And he
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: decided to, I think he was a journalist at the time,
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: and he thought, you know what, I'm just going to
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: see what happens and document what happens if I just
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: don't drink for a year. And that was the blog
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: of Hello Sunday Morning.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: That's right, yeah.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: And that then became the organization with the Daybreak app
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: and all those things. And he's gone on to do
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: loads of different things in the addiction space around alcohol.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: It's really great. Though, it's when you are... starting to
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: look at how you feel within yourself, within your life,
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: and looking at your lifestyle, so your style of living,
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: does that facilitate your goals or does it actually hinder
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: your goals?
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Is it helping you become the person you want
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: to be?
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: Or is it getting in the way?
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: And so I'm never going to say to someone, right,
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: this is what you should do. You should stop drinking.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: You should stop using. Instead, I help to place a
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: mirror in front of the person. And that means that
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: the person can look at themselves and go, hang on
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: a minute. What am I gaining from this? What am
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: I actually... bringing into my life with these choices? What
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: if I made different choices? What would I then bring
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: into my life and which one would I prefer? And
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: it sounds really simple, but that's the thing is recovery
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: isn't easy. It's simple. And the smarter we are as humans,
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: I have found in my experiences And especially at the
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: thyroid clinic is the smarter the client is, the harder
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: they find this process because they want, they expect there
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: should be a complicated process that they need to go through.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: But the truth is, is that this brain of ours
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: being millions of years old actually leans on simplistic processes
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: more than anything. So A plus B really does equal
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: C when it comes to addiction recovery. Yeah.
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: And I think there's another thing is that a lot
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: of people don't want to look in the mirror properly.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: And I would guess that we're very good. You mentioned
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: it earlier on.
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: We are very, very good at justifying our own behavior
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: and at minimizing our flaws, particularly when it's stuff that
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: you know deep down inside is a problem, but it's
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: a hard problem.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: So we come up with all sorts of excuses.
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: In your experience, how hard is it to get people
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: to have a really honest look in the mirror and
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: that honest conversation?
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: It depends.
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: And is there any techniques that you can, to help
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: people to actually look properly? Yes.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: So there are specific techniques to help that. The answer
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: to your first part of that question is it depends
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: on what stage of change they're in. Because if someone
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: is in the pre-contemplation stage of change, they either don't
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: think that there's a problem or they don't see that
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: there's a solution. So why would I bother trying? What mirror?
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: What mirror? There is no mirror. Exactly.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: Just like the matrix, there is no spoon.
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: So in that stage of change, the most effective thing
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: is to provide people with education. Education in a non-judgmental
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: way about what is actually happening.
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: So it's not actually sitting them down and going, finger pointing, going,
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: you have a problem because that's often what can happen, right?
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: So shame and guilt actually take you back into the
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: pre-contemplation stage of change when no change occurs. So this
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: idea of shaming someone or bringing about this sense of
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: feeling guilty is actually actually detrimental to the change process.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: So no, the truth is, here's the statement of the
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: entire podcast. The addictive behavior works because it does. It
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: is a mood-altering substance or a mood-altering behavior that Fires
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: off dopamine in the brain and dopamine is directly linked
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: to survival.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: So when we were back in the UGG days and
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: we had saber-toothed tigers trying to kill us, when we
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: would kill that tiger, not only were we safe, but
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: we also got lunch. We survived and we helped our
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: whole tribe thrive. So that is what we're dealing with.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: We are dealing with a hardwired chemical construct that that
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: is directly linked to the concept of survival. So that
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: means that at that early, early stage of change, people
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: truly believe, and it is real in their brain, that
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: this thing keeps me alive, even when I don't like it,
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: even when I don't want it. If I don't have it,
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: I could die. And that is a lot of distress
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: for someone to carry because And so we want to
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: provide education around safe ways of doing it, ways to
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: start gently reducing things, options of treatment, options of other
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: anxiety and stress management strategies, things like that. This is
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: best provided within either an inpatient environment where there's a
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: lot of wraparound support or within more of a a
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: community-based option. So things like it's unlikely that someone in
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: the pre-contemplation stage of change will go to something that
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: they're not forced to go to. However, things like smart
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: recovery is a really great place for someone in those
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: early stages of change because they're in an environment with
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: people around them that are all working towards the same
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: goal of change. If you have someone who is in
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: the contemplation stage, this is where they've realized that there
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: is a bit of an issue, but we're not really
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: ready to do anything about it yet. That is another
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: place where we really want to be focusing on nonjudgmental
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: education on what is actually going on, safe ways of
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: using and doing the behavior, and then opportunities for treatment.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: Really just helping to.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: Expand someone's knowledge and awareness around the whole situation in
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: the system. When we enter into preparation, and at the
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: Tara Clinic, we don't accept clients who are any earlier
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: than the preparation.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: Stage of change. Yeah, I can see why.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because the preparation stage of change is where we
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: have acknowledged that there's an issue and we're exploring our
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: options for change. So that means that we might... In
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: that stage, we might try doing a rehab or seeing
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: your doctor or talking to someone about it. We might
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: go to Smart Recovery. We might call the ADIS phone lines.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: That's the Alcohol and Drug Information Service phone line. We
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: might call the Gamble Aware phone line. There might be
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: some things like that. But then as you progress through,
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: and I see these stages of change not linear, but
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: more as a continuum. So as you progress through the
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: preparation stage of change, that's where the behavior starts to stop.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: And this is where the issue lies, is for clinicians
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: or clients who are focused on stopping, they will cease
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: treatment while they are still in the preparation stage of change.
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: Where no actual change has occurred yet, but they have stopped.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: So stopping isn't….
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: So clarify that for me. No actual change has happened,
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: but they have stopped.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: So how can you have stopped, but there's no actual change?
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: White-knuckling it. We haven't changed our relationship to stress and distress.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: We've just simply stopped the behavior. So in the 12-step space,
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: there's a saying called being a dry drunk. And the
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: idea of being a dry drunk is you go to
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: the same places with the same people doing the same things.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: You just don't have a drink in your hand. And
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: that is the hardest way to maintain recovery because you
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: are solely focused on willpower.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: And it's contrary because as soon as you come into
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: that place … There is that memory that is driving
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: the dopamine and dopamine is like, do it again, right?
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: It's not the pleasure of the moment. It's the want
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: to try and do it.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And so by the time people enter into maintenance
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: and then in recovery, they are absolutely able to spend
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: time in those places with those people if they choose to,
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: but they've got the skills and the confidence in their
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: implementation to be able to make a choice rather than
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: feeling like a puppet on the street.
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and look, I think everybody can relate to that
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: if they're trying to stop drinking or stop smoking. It's
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: like the worst thing you can do is go to
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: the pub when you're just starting.
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: Out, right? Absolutely. Well, even if you think about a
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: changing lifestyle on the 1st of January, right? You go
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: full bore until, I don't know, Anzac Day.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: The 7th of January. Yeah, yeah.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: Sorry, I said Anzac Day. I meant Australia Day. But,
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: you know, you go through until there and then all
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: of a sudden your willpower is gone. Nothing's really changed.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: You just haven't been eating this way or haven't been
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: doing this thing for a while. And that's where you
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: can see, ah, that's the difference between stopping and changing.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: Change is where you have really built new aspects to
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: your lifestyle, so your style of living. So being really
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: conscious about who you choose to spend time with, what
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: you do when you're spending that time and where you
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: are in terms of your locations. But the interesting thing,
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: and I'll just bring this up so that I can
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: show you visually as well, in the way that we
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: indicate the stages of change, there is a real change
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: in color between the preparation and the action stage to
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: change and that's because this junction here is actually where
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: you are at the highest risk for uh what's termed relapse.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: Relapse snakes and ladders snakes and yeah.
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: We don't we don't use that term so we call
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: a lapse a lesson and we call a relapse recycling oh.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: I like it i like it i like the reframing
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: of it yeah that's yeah yeah yeah It's evidence, right?
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: You run an experiment and it's like the karate dojo
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: I used to be in.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: It'd be you win or you learn. Yes, exactly.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: And that's why we don't count days of sobriety because
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: if you've had 470 days of sobriety and then you
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: drink and go back to day one, does that mean
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: that the last year and a half means nothing?
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: It's been a mess. Yeah. And in your model.
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: Can you move from addiction into using that substance, but
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: using it in a way that is not massively maladaptive?
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Or is it just abstinence?
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: So let's take me, ex-military, Irish, like a tipple. And
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: after the conversation with Sarah Rushbach, I realized, oh, I
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: was definitely a gray area drinker, gray towards black.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: But I wouldn't have called myself an addict, right? But
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: having listened to those 12, I'm going tick, tick, tick, tick, right?
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: But I now have a much better relationship with alcohol
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: where I don't drink anywhere near as much, anywhere near
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: as much as I did. But would that be permissible
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: in your thing? Or is it more that... If you've
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: got a problem, you've got to be clean, whatever you
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: want to call it.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: You've got to not touch that substance for the rest
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: of your life.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: No.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: No, I'm not taking anybody's choice away from them. At
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: the Tara Clinic, our priority is helping you to have
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: the skills and tools and confidence to make your own choices.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: And those choices are then done in a very educated way.
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: You understand the purpose behind the behavior. If you understand
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: the driver behind the behavior, you are making a real choice.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: If you're doing it because that's what I've always done,
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: or that's what my mates are doing, or if I don't,
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: something bad will happen, then you are no longer making
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: a choice. You are being driven by this external thing.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: And I'm not going to become another external thing that
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: has to push you into you know one way or
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: the other absolutely not again you are the client the
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: person the individual is the hero in their story they
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: have everything in in themselves already to be able to
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: make these choices all i'm doing with the program that
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: we have at the tara clinic is helping you to
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: understand and build the skills to be able to harness
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: that choice.
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: So in the Tara Clinic, in your model, are there
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: different substances or with the different substances, the we could
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: talk about that can become addictive, whether it's gambling, shopping
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: to consumable substances such as alcohol, marijuana, cocaine, MDMA, ice, heroin.
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: And is there a kind of hierarchy of things where
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: you go These ones, it's highly unlikely that you will
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: go back to and have a reasonable relationship with. But
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: the other ones, yeah, you could probably have a normal relationship,
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: if you like. You can take those things sometimes and
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: it's not going to affect. Because I'm thinking as we're
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: talking about this, like someone who... got a real problem
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: with weed or alcohol could probably manage that and just
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: do it socially. And it's not every night and it's
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: not affecting their lives and that sort of stuff.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: But heroin and ice, I would find that.
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: Hard, which I've never taken by the way, but I
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: would find it hard to believe that you go from.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: Being an addict to being an occasional user where it
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: doesn't affect her. I may be wrong. There may be
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: people who's listening to this going, I've been there.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, one of the things at
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: the Tyre Clinic, we don't label anybody an addict or
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: an alcoholic because we see you as a human and
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: it is a behavior that we're either doing or not
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: doing at that time and that's fine.
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: However, the only substance ….
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And others where it's like, oh, it's going to
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: be hard to do this occasionally. Because I'm just thinking
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: of things like heroin and ice that, as you'll know
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: with addiction, it's the speed at which it hits your
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: brain and how tightly the neurons bind that really creates
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: that strong chemical addiction.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: So what's your thoughts on those things?
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: Yes. So... If we just use heroin as the example,
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: there are a few different ways that you can use heroin.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: The most common one is either smoking it or injecting it.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: And depending on the method that someone uses a substance
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: actually changes the speed at which it initiates. For example,
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: with cannabis, if you eat a hash cookie compared to
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: smoking it, It's a very different timeline of when you
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: experience it. So it's not necessarily the substance itself. It's
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: often the form that you use it in that changes
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: the speed of when your brain sort of picks it up. However,
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: the only substance that I can genuinely say that is
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: the hardest one to use in more of a social
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: setting is is crystal methamphetamine, otherwise known as ice. Yeah. Now,
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: it's not for the reason that you think it is.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: Oh, okay.
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah. The reason that that is the one that is
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: difficult to use in a more casual sense is actually
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: the length of detox.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: Ah, gotcha.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: We have a number of different substances– We have a
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: number of filtration systems in our body, right? We have
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: our skin, we have our lungs, we have our kidneys,
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: we have our liver, right? We have all these different
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: things that filter our body of different poisons. And, you know,
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: sugar is a poison. Like, there's lots of different things
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: that are poisons, okay? Now, with ice, there are two
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: types of detox. One is the physical body filtering out
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: the substance, right? And that usually takes anywhere from sort
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: of three to ten days for it to no longer
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: be visible in a urine test. Don't quote me on that,
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: anybody that's listening, in case you have criminal things.
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: I see where that's going.
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: In general, it can be different for everybody. However, yeah,
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: in general. However, the brain, when you use ice and urine,
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: Ice is also unique in that it doesn't matter if
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: it is a tiny amount or a huge amount, the
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: brain reacts in the same way. So that's different to
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: having one drink to 10 drinks. There's an accumulation. With ice,
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: it's more of an on or an off, right? So
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: when ice is experienced by the brain, what it does
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: is it turns everything on and it turns it up
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: to 100%. And when I say everything, so right now
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: I'm at a standing desk. That means that the part
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: of my brain that deals with balance is on. The
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: part of my brain that deals with speaking is on,
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: listening on. But the part of my brain that deals
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: with how I sit is off right now. The part
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: of my brain that deals with how I handle being
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: wet is off because I'm dry, right? So there are
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: different parts of the brain that do different things at
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: different times. And With ice, everything gets turned on all
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: at once. And it actually takes nine to 12 months
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: since your last use for your brain to come back
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: to homeostasis, to be back to balance.
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: Jesus, really?
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: Yes. And it's interesting because the cravings that are experienced
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: from someone going through that nine to 12 month period
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: are so crazily on the clock. It is unbelievable. So
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: three days after your last use, I call them a wobble.
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: So three days after your last use, you'll get a wobble,
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: which is a really big hit of cravings. And usually
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: people struggle to get past that first three days. In
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: the first seven to 10 days, your brain doesn't have
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: the capacity to experience joy because that substance is actually killed.
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: I call them the little sweeper guys, the guys that
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: help to bring back that happy feeling.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: In your brain. And head on ear, right?
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So in those first three days, you'll get a
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: big wobble. If you get past that, the next wobble
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: is usually at three weeks. It's crazy. It comes in threes.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: Then if you get through that three weeks later, so
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: it's six weeks, you'll get another wobble. If you get
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: through that, the next wobble is at three months, then
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: at six months, then at nine months, then at 12 months.
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: You can literally set your clock to it. It is unbelievable.
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: And so what I do with clients who come to
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: me with ice as their main concern is is I
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: help them through education to know that these are the
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: times along this process where we need to increase the
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: amount of helpful things that we're doing to cope with
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: stress and distress so that we're not surprised by this
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: experience and then essentially use again. Because the moment that
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: we use again, even if it's a small amount, it starts, yes,
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: and this is the only time any other substance, If
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: you wanted to, you probably could use heroin in a
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: casual way. Though there's not many people that I have
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: met in my 15 years of doing this work who
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: have chosen to do that. Most of the time, people
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: choose to move on from heroin because of the impacts
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: that it's had on their life in the past.
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay.
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: That is other than ice and still with ice, it's
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: completely up to the person if they choose to continue
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: to use or not. I'm not going, I'm not the police.
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: I don't tell people what to do with their life. However,
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: that is the only one where I say to people,
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: it's going to be very challenging because your brain, so
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: early recovery at the Tara Clinic, and in my opinion,
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: early recovery is the first 12 months of change. But
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: change doesn't start until you're in the action stage of change.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: And the action stage of change is very difficult to
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: be in if you're still detoxing.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I can see that.
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: So it means that when I have someone coming to
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: me with crystal methamphetamine or ice as their concern, I
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: say to them, you actually get an added bonus of
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: an additional year of practice before early recovery starts.
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: Because in order to overcome those wobbles every, you know,
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: three days, three weeks, six weeks, three months, all of that,
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: you have to be really practicing those helpful strategies and
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: tools to be able to achieve that 12-month timeline. So
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: then you're now starting recovery with a brain that is
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: fully functioning again or as fully functioning as your brain
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: can be depending on, you know, where your brain is at.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: That is when then early recovery starts.
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: Is there anything consistent that you see as the driver
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: behind this? I'm guessing stress shows up quite a lot.
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: I'm guessing maybe particularly childhood trauma or some sort of traumatic,
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: which is obviously an extreme form of stress. Maybe there's
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: loneliness that's kicking in there, general unhappiness. lost your mojo,
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: lack of purpose. Like what are some of the consistent
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: themes that you show up as the driver of the
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: initial behavior?
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: Or the maintainer of the behavior?
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: The maintainer is often, especially for people who are high
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: functioning or who are in high pressured environments, is actually
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: managing the pressure.
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: It's a release, right?
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: It's a gasket or it's like taking the, taking the
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: top off the old high pressure cooker that your mum
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: used to use.
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: That my mum used to use. And it's like that
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: big blow off of steam, right? We used to call
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: it in the military a blowout.
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: And I actually remember going through flying training and a
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: mate of mine, we were very close to the end
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: and a mate of mine failed a really significant exam
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: and he was right on the cusp. And the boss
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: called me in and said, just take him out and
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: get him pissed, go for a pressure cooker release.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he actually used that term.
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: So that's something that you consistently see is a way
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: to relieve the pressure.
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: Just want to relax.
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely. And another one is identity. And that's a
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: big reason why I don't use labels. Because if someone
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: identifies as an addict... Our words mirror our thoughts. So
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: what that means is what we say is a direct
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: representation of either what we're thinking or how we're thinking.
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: And our thoughts impact on and are impacted by our
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: belief systems. And all three of those things drive our
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: actions and outcomes. So that means that if I say
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: I'm an addict, I think I'm an addict, I believe
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: I'm an addict, I'm going to act like an addict.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: So instead, what we do is we want to shift
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: to the language that To shift the thinking, to shift
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: the belief, to shift the behavior. And so when I
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: think about what are some of the common things, I
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: was in the early, early years in high school. So
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: I looked about 19 when I was 12. It was
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: very easy for me to purchase cigarettes because I just
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: put on a different t-shirt, did the math. And when
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: I was asked, oh, hang on, do you have your ID? No,
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: I don't have it on me. When were you born? Blah. Right.
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: It was very easy for me to do that. So
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: part of my identity was actually the person that could
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: supply other kids at my high school with their cigarettes.
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: Gotcha.
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: Right. So it made me have a purpose. It made
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: me be part of something. And my friendship group at
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: that time was also all the people who were smoking.
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: And so I was this really interesting bridge between the
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: naughty kids and the teachers because I loved school and
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: I really, really enjoyed spending time with the teachers, but
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: I also smoked and most of the naughty kids were
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: the ones that smoked. And so that bridge was this
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: really interesting thing for me to be able to see, oh,
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: hang on a minute, the way that I interact with
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: my world and the way that I perceive my world
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: changes how others interact with me. So if I was
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: spending time with the teachers, I was speaking differently. I
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: was thinking differently. I was talking about different topics. And
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: then when I would go and sit with the quote-unquote
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: naughty kids, I would speak differently. I would think differently.
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: I would be doing all these things differently. And so, yeah,
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: having a persona, being the person– It's known for drinking
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: everybody under the table. Yes.
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 52:43
  Speaker 4: Yep.
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: No, I get it.
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: And I often talk about this is that like the
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: people who view themselves as.
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: A hard drinking, you know, I drink like a Viking
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: or whatever, that perpetuates the behavior.
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: But that identity can be a positive thing because I
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: have one of the identities about being a fit person.
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: healthy person right but yeah my question then is values
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: playing into identity and a bit of disclosure I think
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: the the key thing that helped me reduce my drinking
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: significantly was the value of authenticity so that's a deeply
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: held value of mine and I realized one day standing
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: up and talking to a bunch of people about peak
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: performance when I know I wasn't drinking every night but
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: I would certainly label myself now a grey area drinker
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: or was then. But now I probably drink twice a
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: week and a lot less volume than I did a
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: year ago or maybe two years ago. But a lot
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: of it was tapping into that value of authenticity. So
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: do you do values work with people?
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely. It's one of the specific sessions within the
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: third program of the three-step blueprint. And The reason is
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: because your goals and your values are two different things.
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: I talk about values as being the direction on a compass.
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: So if my value is West, I can never get
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: to West because there's always more West to go, right? Yes.
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: And I live in Sydney. And so if my goal
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: is to get to the Blue Mountains, well, then I'm set.
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: My goal, my behavior is, is going in the same
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: direction as my value, which is West. However, if my
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: goal or my behavior is I want to go to Queensland, well,
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: then I'm pulling against my values. I'm going against my
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: values and it means it's really hard and it feels uncomfortable.
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: Or I need to go all the way around the
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: earth and hope that I reach where I wanted to
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: be in Queensland. So I've got to go the long
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: way around. So when we think about values, values-based behaviors
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: are the easiest way to reduce distress in your life.
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: So my three core values are justice, nonconformity, and safety.
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: Justice means that throughout my life, even as a child,
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: I can see where I used to stand up for
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: the naughty, you know, stand up for the kids that were.
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: Being bullied. Yeah, I was the same. Exactly the same.
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: Social justice. Absolutely.
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Completely. Completely. I was writing into the council in
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: early high school saying the reason that all these kids
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: are doing drugs is because there's nothing for them to do.
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: Put a skate ramp in. Come on, guys. It's not
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: that bad. Nonconformity means that I never followed a trend.
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: I was always the leader. So that's why I looked
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: at addiction and said, well, hang on a minute.
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: I want to do it differently.
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly.
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: Exactly. And then safety is, you know, I never snuck
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: out of home because I was always thinking it'd take
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: my mom until 10 o'clock the next morning to figure
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: out that I'm not there. And if I'm bleeding in
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: a gutter, well, it's too late. So, yeah, when you
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: look at what your values are, the idea, even the thought,
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: I used to be asked by some friends, oh, let's
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: just sneak out. It's fine. I'm like, nope. I'll tell
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: my mom. And if she says no, I'm not going
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: to go because I don't that value of safety was
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: just so ingrained within me.
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: And that's a big thing is that when people are
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: living in a way that's incongruent with their values, it's
• 56:22
  Speaker 3: a massive stressor, right? And even working for a company
• 56:27
  Speaker 3: that is incongruent with your personal values is a massive stressor.
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: Whereas if you work for.
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: This is why a lot of people on, you know,
• 56:35
  Speaker 3: who work for not-for-profit agencies because they're very aligned with
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: the values, they can handle a shitload more stress than
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: people who are working for an organization that's incongruent with
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: their values.
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: Completely, completely. Because instead of you, it's, I live by
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: the ocean, so I think about a rip. If you
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: are swimming against the rip, you have to be extremely strong,
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: extremely fit, and extremely determined to even potentially get back
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: to shore. But if you swim with the rip, surfers
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: use rips all the time. They love a rip because
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: it gets them out past the breakers really quickly.
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, values are important.
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: Is there a couple of key questions that people could
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: ask themselves about a certain behavior that aren't just lifted
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: from the DSM with all of your experience, right? Is
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: there a couple of key questions that people can ask
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: themselves so as they can have an honest look in
• 57:39
  Speaker 3: the mirror about whatever behavior.
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: It might be?
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: The first thing that I always say is, have I
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: wondered whether this is a problem before? And if I
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: have wondered it, well, then maybe it's an opportunity to
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: go and find out.
• 57:56
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: And just even if it is a problem, it doesn't
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: mean I have to stop straight away. It doesn't mean
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: I have to stop at all. You have choice in
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: your life and whatever choice you make is up to you.
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: As long as you're surrounded by the people that are
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: going to be able to guide you through that process, then. yeah,
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: you have the opportunity to make that choice. So my
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: first question is always, have I questioned this at all?
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: So if I've questioned it and the answer is, well, yeah,
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: actually I have been wondering, or, you know, someone said
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: it to me and I didn't really think so, but maybe,
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: you know, then I would say, all right, what would
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: it feel like if I just said that I wasn't
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: going to do it for the next year? Then, see
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: what happens in your body. See what happens in your life.
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: The reaction.
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. See what happens. And then if a year is just, Oh,
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: absolutely not. Then go, all right, what about three months?
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: If there's still like, Oh, right. Then go, okay, what
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: about a month? And then again, if there's still, Oh,
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: then we go, all right, well, you know, if, if,
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: if we're, if we're struggling with the concept of stopping
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: something for a month, then right. Or if you've done
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: dry July or November, and then the way you celebrated
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: how great you felt that month was by getting shit faced.
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: Here we go, right? We're just asking questions. And I
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: always say, put on your reality pants and take off
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: your judgment pants, right? When you're asking yourself these questions. Yeah,
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: because judgment pants, they don't look good and they chafe.
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: So they're not a vibe. But instead, your reality pants,
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: it's like, oh, okay. So this is actually what's going on.
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: And if you're unsure for the next week or two,
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: just track the behavior. honestly. And the best way to
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: track a behavior honestly is have a couple of rules.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: So if I just use alcohol as the example, because
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: it's just an easy example to use, we want to
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: note down the intention to drink before we pour it,
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: order it at a bar or accept it from a friend.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: And then if we're noting it down before we've done
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: that and we still choose to have it, okay, you're
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: choosing to have it. That's fine. I'm not going to
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: stop you. However, it means that you can start to see, oh,
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: hang on a minute. Is there a pattern? Do I
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: say that I'm going out for a few beers with
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: mates and when I actually look at it, I've had seven?
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: Or if I think, oh, you know, with Bob it's
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: all right, but with Matt, no. Or, oh, interesting, Thursday
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: I seem to start at lunchtime and then that leads
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: into Friday. And then that leads into the weekend. And
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: then I feel shit all of Monday to Wednesday or right.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: You can start to see patterns. And then the longer
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: you are tracking it, the more clear those patterns become. Ah,
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: are there certain times of the day, days of the week, people, locations, emotions, feelings?
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: What are, what are these patterns that I can see? And,
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: When we start to identify and unpack those patterns, you
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: can then go, ah, now I know that there is
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: a gap in my knowledge, in my skill base, in
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: my understanding or in my awareness that I can then
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: look to solve. And that's essentially what the whole blueprint,
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: the whole recovery blueprint that we do at the Tyra Clinic,
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: that is all it is. It is about helping people
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: to identify their patterns and And fill those gaps of
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: knowledge and skills and awareness so that There is no
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: puppeteer holding their strings anymore. They turn into Pinocchio. I'm
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: a real boy.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: Very cool.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: So, Tara, now that 90% of my audience have realized
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 3: that they're actually addicts, high-functioning, how do we ….
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: We don't call them addicts, remember. Sorry.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: Now that 90% of my audience are realizing that they
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 3: are high-functioning with problematic behaviors … Nice job.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: Where do we send them to?
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: Well, look, if you think that the Tara Clinic might
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: be the right fit for you, we're available nationwide and
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: we're online. So it means that we don't actually get
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: in the way of your work and school and other life.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: If you want to go down the Tara Clinic route,
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: just check us out at thetaraclinic.com. I'm sure there would
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: be a link on the website.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: The podcast, yeah. We'll put that in the show notes. Yeah,
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: the Tara Clinic. Yeah.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: If you don't want to go down the tarot clinic route,
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: there are some really great free options that are available. So,
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: for example, Smart Recovery. So smartrecoveryaustralia.com.au is the website for
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: Smart Recovery Australia. There you can find free groups. Some
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: are online, some are face-to-face.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: I would encourage you to call the facilitator before turning
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: up just so that you get a vibe as to
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: whether or not you like them. Another option is the
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: ADIS phone line, so the Alcohol and Drug Information Service
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: phone line, and that's 1-800-250-015. And that phone line is nationwide.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: It's 24-7, and you can call for anything. any substance-related concern,
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: whether it's information, whether it's referral options in your local community,
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: whether it's crisis management. I've got a craving right now.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: Help distract me. And they'll go, great, let's play a game. Yeah,
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: they're really, really great. And they're also a really good
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: phone line for family and friends of people that are
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: struggling as well. You can call them and say, I
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: don't know how to handle this situation. Please help me.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: And they will help you.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: I'm calling for a friend. Yeah.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: Well, you can totally do that.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: But yeah, if you're interested in reaching out to the
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: Tyra Clinic, just jump on the website and click book
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: a call and then you can do an assessment. Otherwise,
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: you can do the quiz that's on our website. Oh, yeah.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: Notice that on your website.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: Go do the quiz, people. Tara, this has been excellent.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing all of your knowledge.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 3: And I don't think I need to tell you this,
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 3: but keep being a non-conformist because we.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: Need more of those.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: Thank you, sir. I appreciate that. Cheers. Thanks.