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Transcript

Don’t Fake It: Why “I Don’t Know” Earns More Trust Than Pretending With Jeff Matlow · Expertise Made Real

• 0:00
  What gives away someone who's faking expertise?
• 0:03
  And what should they do instead?
• 0:06
  Today, Jeff Matlow of the Best Leadership Company is back with a topic no other guest has pitched.
• 0:12
  What happens when people try to fake it?
• 0:15
  Last time, Jeff shared how to spot the expertise hiding in people who don't see it in themselves.
• 0:21
  This time, he shares the tell.
• 0:23
  The questions he asks to find it, and why, I don't know, but I'm willing to learn from.
• 0:29
  Earns more respect than any bluff.
• 0:33
  Are you ready?
• 0:34
  Let's go.
• 0:35
  Welcome to Expertise Made Real.
• 0:37
  I'm your host, Kristen N.
• 0:39
  Spencer, and you're listening to the launch series for this podcast where experts from different fields describe for us the exact moment where they tangibly noticed the expertise they had already been acting on for years because it took something
• 0:54
  or someone outside themselves to reveal how their experience could become expertise.
• 1:00
  Plus, each guest will give you tools and tips on how you can adjust your own expertise to reflect important lessons they've learned throughout the years.
• 1:09
  The value in each and every episode of this launch series runs deep, and I can't wait for you to dive in.
• 1:16
  So let's get started.
• 1:18
  Okay, Jeff, you're back again.
• 1:21
  I'm so.
• 1:21
  Excited.
• 1:22
  I feel like it's been so long.
• 1:26
  Today, we are going to talk about something that no other guest has pitched to me, and I love that you did, which is when people try to fake expertise, because that's an important topic for this podcast, obviously, where
• 1:40
  expertise is made real.
• 1:42
  So are you ready for the question?
• 1:44
  I am so ready for the question.
• 1:46
  All right, so what is the tell if someone junior tried to fake expertise they didn't actually have, where would they get caught and what do you think would happen?
• 2:01
  Have you heard of the five whys?
• 2:03
  Oh, yes.
• 2:04
  But for people who are listening who don't know, do you want to refresh their memory?
• 2:09
  Absolutely.
• 2:09
  It was created by this guy Toyota, who his claim to fame other than the five whys is he was the father of the kid who created the company Toyota.
• 2:20
  But aside from that, he worked in this factory and was trying to figure out the basis for figure out why problems happened.
• 2:28
  And he realized that if you just ask why once, you're not getting to the root cause, you're just getting an excuse.
• 2:36
  And so he said, you just have to keep asking why.
• 2:41
  And he called it the five whys, because if you ask why three to five times, you eventually get to the root cause of something happening.
• 2:50
  Like, why was that report late?
• 2:54
  Well, I didn't have time to do it.
• 2:55
  Okay, why didn't you have time?
• 2:58
  Because my computer didn't work.
• 3:01
  Why didn't your computer work?
• 3:02
  Because it was on vacation and they don't like me and they didn't help me.
• 3:07
  And you eventually get to, you know, the end.
• 3:10
  So, anyway, where were we?
• 3:15
  Seriously?
• 3:16
  The.
• 3:16
  Tel.
• 3:16
  The TEL for the tel.
• 3:18
  So when someone doesn't have expertise.
• 3:21
  So anyway, what I do, I rarely, when I'm talking to people, is just stick with the surface.
• 3:29
  And somebody who doesn't have expertise can't get really deep.
• 3:33
  And so I use the basic idea of the five whys to ask them a question.
• 3:38
  First of all, you and I are intuitive enough we can tell if somebody might be trying to make themselves a little better than they are.
• 3:47
  And so if I see that, I might ask somebody to tell me more about what they did and why they did that and what they're going to do about it.
• 3:57
  And let me give you an example.
• 3:59
  I worked late last year.
• 4:01
  I worked with somebody who was given a VP of Operations role in a $20 million company.
• 4:10
  So relatively small, but big enough.
• 4:14
  And they had a really good LinkedIn profile, but they'd never been head of operations.
• 4:19
  Oh, interesting.
• 4:21
  Nobody knew that, but I talked to them once, and I realized I don't think they know what they're doing.
• 4:27
  And so I asked some very specific questions.
• 4:32
  I knew one of the challenges was meeting timelines, accountability.
• 4:37
  So I'd say, what are you doing with accountability?
• 4:40
  How do you keep people accountable?
• 4:42
  And they'll give some sort of answer that, you know, doesn't make sense.
• 4:46
  And so then you can ask another question about it.
• 4:48
  And eventually they've dug themselves into such a hole that everybody realizes they don't know what they're talking about.
• 4:55
  Now, I'm not going to make people feel uncomfortable right on the spot.
• 4:58
  Yeah.
• 4:59
  The point is to open it up and have people realize, okay, they're.
• 5:05
  They may not.
• 5:08
  They may be exposed.
• 5:09
  And so my role then is to make them feel comfortable saying, I don't really know how to do this.
• 5:16
  And they can say that without saying the words.
• 5:18
  It's more like, all right, can I help you with accountability?
• 5:22
  Do you want to know my ideas about accountability?
• 5:26
  And, yeah, I'd love to.
• 5:28
  And then I start teaching them how to do it, and then it becomes.
• 5:34
  They start trusting me.
• 5:35
  And it becomes a deeper conversation as we go on of, hey, you seem like you're in a role that maybe you feel might be over your head.
• 5:47
  And then, you know, it goes on.
• 5:52
  So what would you say to someone who's listening to this podcast.
• 5:56
  They're trying to figure out their expertise and they're tempted to make up an expertise.
• 6:04
  Don't do that.
• 6:07
  I feel like, you know, be honest.
• 6:10
  There's a certain.
• 6:12
  I'm okay with a certain fudge factor.
• 6:15
  You know, if I've led a team of five people, am I going to say I could lead a team of eight?
• 6:21
  Yeah, that's fine.
• 6:24
  But if I've been a marketing coordinator, am I going to say I could run a marketing team?
• 6:32
  No, don't do that.
• 6:33
  You're going to get into a lot of trouble.
• 6:35
  It is so much easier and better and you get more respect and more trust.
• 6:41
  If you say, I've never done that before.
• 6:44
  I don't really know everything about it, but I'm willing to do what it takes to get there.
• 6:51
  I have another client at a big company.
• 6:54
  I'm not going to mention any names, but she's been at the company for a while in a VP role and couldn't get any further and went to her boss and said, I want to be better.
• 7:11
  I want to get hired, raised, I want to get a promotion.
• 7:17
  And so I'd like to get some help.
• 7:20
  And that's actually how I was hired.
• 7:23
  Because she admitted that she didn't have the expertise and wanted it.
• 7:27
  And just in doing that, she gets more respect internally.
• 7:32
  Absolutely.
• 7:33
  And I think as someone who's done a fair share of hiring and firing myself, when people are transparent and they're like, I actually want to do this, but I need help doing it, that's so much easier than going
• 7:47
  out and finding a whole new person.
• 7:49
  Right.
• 7:50
  100%.
• 7:53
  And people respect you for that.
• 7:56
  The whole purpose is growth.
• 7:58
  And so saying you can do something when you can't do it is actually hurting you as well as hurting everybody else.
• 8:06
  If you want to be able to do something, ask to get help and learn how to do it.
• 8:12
  And you'll be able to grow faster.
• 8:14
  You'll be able to get that expertise faster than if you pretended you have it.
• 8:19
  Cause you'll be found out and it won't work well,.
• 8:24
  Well.
• 8:24
  And I always like to, you know, so, like, no is a full sentence.
• 8:27
  But this is something that I am reminding people of and myself constantly that I don't know is also a full sentence.
• 8:35
  And it's okay to say,.
• 8:37
  Yeah, that's so hard for a lot of people to say, but I agree with you.
• 8:44
  I don't know is really important to say.
• 8:48
  And people, especially for leaders, the higher up you go, it's kind of the More important it is.
• 8:54
  And people think I have to know everything in order to get to the next level.
• 8:59
  And that's a lie.
• 9:02
  You don't.
• 9:03
  You have to care.
• 9:05
  And this reminds me of our last conversation.
• 9:07
  In the episode before this one, we were talking about parenting.
• 9:10
  And so, you know, I have different kids at different ages, 14, 17, and 19.
• 9:15
  And I'll tell my 19 year old, I'm like, listen, I don't know what I'm doing.
• 9:20
  You're my oldest kid.
• 9:21
  You're my first kid.
• 9:23
  If I get something wrong, please just tell me, because I don't know what I'm doing.
• 9:29
  Yeah, yeah.
• 9:30
  And I do the same thing with my daughter.
• 9:33
  When she wants something, I don't know how to do it, but let's figure it out together.
• 9:39
  And I think that is.
• 9:40
  I mean, and tell me what you think about this.
• 9:44
  But the willingness to keep learning will cancel out that.
• 9:49
  I don't know every time.
• 9:51
  You know, I have always said that the number one thing I want to teach my child is to always be curious.
• 10:00
  And I believe that you're really old when you stop being curious about things, when you stop wanting to learn, you stop wanting to try new things.
• 10:09
  And so I think I 100% agree with you.
• 10:13
  I think it's one of the most important things.
• 10:16
  Yes.
• 10:16
  I am also.
• 10:17
  I mean, like shameless Plug.
• 10:19
  That's what my new book is all about.
• 10:21
  If you want to read it, you can go to alicebizbizbook.com and the whole thing is about why it pays to be curious about which words sell.
• 10:34
  Because without curiosity, you cannot mark it well.
• 10:38
  That's like my tile that I will nail to the wall.
• 10:42
  I'm not ever gonna.
• 10:44
  You can't argue that away from me.
• 10:46
  I agree.
• 10:47
  I would if it were a West side Story.
• 10:50
  I'd be fighting on your gang.
• 10:55
  Have you ever read.
• 10:58
  I'm sure you've read Alice in Wonderland, the actual book, The Lewis Carroll book.
• 11:02
  Yes.
• 11:02
  Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, actually.
• 11:04
  Here.
• 11:05
  Yes.
• 11:05
  For.
• 11:05
  Those who are watching, here is my severely marked up copy because there are chunks of this in my actual new book.
• 11:13
  That book is so disturbing.
• 11:17
  It really is.
• 11:18
  Like in the book I talk about the Duchess, who is the character that every remake leaves out because she is utterly terrifying and she is the perfect example of someone faking expertise, actually.
• 11:32
  Yeah.
• 11:33
  Yeah.
• 11:34
  I felt like it was.
• 11:35
  I've never done acid, but I felt like if I did, it would be like reading Alice in Wonderland.
• 11:41
  But that's the thing.
• 11:42
  Cause, you know, I have a degree in Literature.
• 11:45
  And so there's no way that he wrote that.
• 11:48
  Everyone's like, he used absinthe.
• 11:49
  I'm like, there's no way he could have kept the characters straight because they're consistent all the way through to the point that I have a quiz.
• 11:58
  Who do you purchase, like, and it's the different characters because they're so consistent the whole way through.
• 12:06
  And I'm just like, I can't imagine that drugs maybe to think of some of the ideas.
• 12:15
  But honestly, he's a super talented writer.
• 12:18
  Yeah.
• 12:18
  Yeah, he is.
• 12:21
  I just wrote a piece that I finished today about the Disney princesses.
• 12:27
  Have you heard that the Disney princesses and the mental disorders thing.
• 12:32
  Oh, no.
• 12:33
  Well, I've heard it, like, compare comparing all the other princesses to Mulan, which I thought was super accurate.
• 12:40
  Okay.
• 12:41
  There's a thing about how each of the Disney princesses represent a different mental disorder.
• 12:47
  Interesting.
• 12:47
  Like, Ariel is ocd.
• 12:50
  She's the hoarder with everything in.
• 12:52
  She.
• 12:52
  Is a hoarder.
• 12:53
  Accurate.
• 12:54
  Yeah.
• 12:56
  There is Cinderella, which I think there's kind of delusions of grandeur in there, and it goes on and on.
• 13:04
  Okay, well, I'm excited to read it whenever it comes out.
• 13:07
  Yeah, I'm excited for you to read it.
• 13:09
  TheBestLeadershipNewsletter.com is where you can find it.
• 13:14
  For everyone listening.
• 13:15
  Because I'm already subscribed, obviously.
• 13:17
  It comes into my.
• 13:18
  It's nice and tidy.
• 13:19
  It's VIP'd.
• 13:20
  It comes in from Jeff every week.
• 13:22
  It's leadership lessons with hopefully enough laughs to make the coffee come out of your nose.
• 13:29
  Well, I think that's, like, how we became, like, kindred spirits.
• 13:33
  Was your Taylor Swift Tuesday?
• 13:35
  I was like, oh, my gosh, he's saying out loud what I've been thinking.
• 13:41
  How is this even real?
• 13:43
  I'm actually thinking of bringing that back.
• 13:45
  I just created a little process to make it easier for me to bring that back.
• 13:50
  Cause people love it.
• 13:51
  People still talk about it.
• 13:53
  I mean, I'm talking about it right now.
• 13:54
  And I would say even if you don't like Taylor Swift's music, her business savvy is undeniable.
• 14:01
  Undeniable, Absolutely.
• 14:03
  I think she's a once in a lifetime, kind of the Michelangelo Jobs type of person.
• 14:09
  And we're starting to see other musicians model her buyback, like, strategy, which I love for them.
• 14:17
  Right.
• 14:19
  In fact, I used to be in the music business.
• 14:22
  Listened to episode one of this, and I still have the masters, and my artists started calling me, asking for their masters.
• 14:32
  Back, which I'm not doing anything with them, so I get them back to them.
• 14:37
  But it's the taylor swift effect.
• 14:40
  It is.
• 14:41
  It is the taylor swift effect.
• 14:42
  Well, thank you, jeff.
• 14:43
  You all know how to find jeff because he just told you.
• 14:46
  I didn't even have to ask him.
• 14:48
  Go to his newsletter right now and think about how you don't need to fake your expertise.
• 14:57
  Next time you're thinking about that, remember this conversation.
• 15:00
  Re listen to this episode.
• 15:01
  Please listen to jeff.
• 15:02
  You don't need to do that.
• 15:05
  Don't do that.
• 15:06
  Don't do that.
• 15:07
  All right.
• 15:07
  Thank you so much, jeff.
• 15:09
  Thank you, kristen.
• 15:10
  Always a pleasure.
• 15:11
  And now, if you liked the episode, I'm going to make an ask because I wouldn't be a sales expert if I didn't.
• 15:18
  Would you please leave a rating and review and hit subscribe.
• 15:22
  In exchange, I'm going to give you my find you'd wonder work system.
• 15:27
  It's five prompts, five minutes and names.
• 15:30
  The thing that you're already excellent at but don't know to call a skill.
• 15:34
  This is basically a what do you do on autopilot Except I've created it as a tool.
• 15:39
  So leave your review and then go claim your reward at bit ly expertisemr.
• 15:49
  That's bitly expertisemr.
• 15:54
  And I hope to hear you or my guest, I guess, in the next episode.
• 15:59
  Thanks.