Latest / The R4R Podcast: Road to Zero / What has your body lived through? | Burnout, Identity, & THRIVE

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What has your body lived through? | Burnout, Identity, & THRIVE · The R4R Podcast: Road to Zero

0:00
Like firstly, thanks for coming on for those that don't know,
0:04
Shannon Cara, not only just part of the art for our community,
0:08
but occupational therapist, clinical director and doctoral
0:12
student specialising in nature based interventions for
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neurodivergent and intellectual disability populations.
0:19
That's right. You've written a book which is
0:22
good here. It's a good book.
0:25
I've read it and it weighs together your personal struggle,
0:32
real world application research. But I want to start this
0:37
interview with a question that you asked some of your clients.
0:42
What has your body lived through?
0:46
Wow, that's a fabulous question. My body has lived through so
0:51
much physically, emotionally and spiritually.
0:55
You know, as a an occupational therapist, I can talk
0:58
clinically, but from a human perspective, it has lived in
1:02
fight or flight for a really long time.
1:05
Yeah. So I guess if we wind back a
1:08
little bit, you know, I had my son very young, I was 20 and
1:13
thought that, you know, a successful life meant you bought
1:16
a house, you got married, you had children, and that's A+B
1:20
equals success and happiness. However, what I discovered was
1:25
living on egg shells and trauma really impacted the way I
1:29
functioned in my life. Yep, and I want to I want to
1:34
take a quote from your book to go into this a little bit
1:37
further. These are your words.
1:40
By day. I was a web designer who loved
1:43
turning messy ideas into clean, usable sites.
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I was the user centre professional who could read a
1:49
client's needs before they ever found the words.
1:52
At home, that same attunement kept me on high alert.
1:56
I learnt to read the signs, the change in his footsteps in the
1:59
hallway, the way his breathing thickened, the way the air in
2:02
the lounge room went heavy and still before anything was said.
2:08
The nervous, my nervous system was permanently tuned in.
2:13
What followed in that chapter? Nothing short of horrific, and
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maybe it sheds light on how you said you've lived through quite
2:24
a bit. It has.
2:26
And, and you know, like for me coming here today, I haven't
2:30
really spoken about this to anyone out loud, you know,
2:34
because it's something that I felt was private and you didn't
2:37
talk about. And I think that we're starting
2:40
to normalise what happens at home through domestic violence
2:44
and naming it and not being ashamed that it happened.
2:48
But I became very tuned in to other people and I could detect
2:53
their mood. And when I say they, I mean my
2:55
family, my husband, my son's mood.
2:59
And I could almost preempt that I needed to clear out for the
3:03
day because I didn't cook bacon and eggs the way he wanted to.
3:08
And so if I was at home and that wasn't served up in the way he
3:13
expected, he would either throw it across the room or send my
3:17
son to his room. And that's when the pacing and
3:20
the spitting in my face and all the other things would happen.
3:25
So yeah, this tuning in was like my my, my superhero, not hero,
3:30
my super talent at that point in time.
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It. Protected you.
3:34
Yeah, 100%. Yeah.
3:36
Yeah. And it was, it was really hard.
3:39
Like, you know, you'd go to work and, and everything's OK, but
3:43
meanwhile, you might have had two hours of someone screaming
3:46
at you because you served up sausages and mashed potatoes
3:50
instead of steak and eggs for dinner because that's what they
3:53
expected. But at work, I still had to
3:55
function. I still had to get to work.
3:57
I still had to look after my son.
3:59
I just became this overachiever and like keeping everyone at
4:02
Bay, like keeping everything down.
4:05
Yeah, just coping as you went on.
4:07
Yeah, 100%. There's 22 little tangents that
4:13
came to mind as you were speaking, obviously.
4:15
Thank you for sharing. One tangent was that it was also
4:19
a cycle, right? It was, yeah.
4:22
It would it would be quite intense.
4:25
Yeah. And this is where, so, you know,
4:27
I was working as a web designer for a global company doing, you
4:32
know, user centred design. And what I sort of discovered
4:38
was that. So I've just lost my train of
4:40
thought. It's OK.
4:42
What was the question you asked? Me that it was a cycle.
4:44
Oh, thank you. Yeah.
4:46
So I sort of had a career change and shift and became curious
4:50
about helping people. So I stopped working as a web
4:54
designer and I moved on to become an occupational
4:57
therapist. And during that time, I worked
4:59
at a women's refuge, Karina House, and I started to
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understand the cycle of power and abuse.
5:07
And that's when I saw the pattern and it unfolded.
5:10
And I could actually see it plain as day as to we'd go
5:12
through, you know, the abuse phase, then the apology, and
5:16
then we'd come back. Everything would be fine.
5:17
And again, we'd keep on going. And at that point, I kept
5:20
justifying to myself, if I did this better, if I didn't say
5:23
that it would stop. But I learnt the hard way or the
5:27
long way that it takes me. Well, it took me a long time to
5:30
discover that it's not going to stop because I can't change the
5:33
pattern. It's on the other person.
5:35
Yeah. So that that was a real
5:36
challenge. It would have been a challenge.
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I, I'm, I had a flashback of a stat that just complicates.
5:42
It is. I think it's, it's quite a high
5:45
#90% of people who are abused love their partner.
5:52
Which, I mean, you're trying to figure out how to make it work.
5:57
Yeah, while it's not working. Yeah.
6:00
And that, that's the the part where I think it takes a woman
6:02
or a person in an abusive relationship 7 times to actually
6:06
leave because they're stuck between that rational thinking
6:10
of I love this person, but then the emotional it's I guess abuse
6:15
and the lack of safety is just conflicting.
6:18
And it's just hard to understand and reason with yourself, yeah.
6:22
Yeah. And in these moments, throughout
6:25
this time, you started to stumble on, without going too
6:32
far down into the book, but coping mechanisms, like your
6:35
first iteration of coping mechanisms.
6:37
How did you? I mean, you said you took
6:39
yourself out of the environment sometimes.
6:43
What else? Yeah.
6:45
So what I sort of discovered was that my sort of fight or flight
6:50
response was to go for a walk after dinner.
6:52
And that gave him time to decompress.
6:54
But also my son and I would be out exploring together and he'd
6:58
ride his BMX and I'd walk and we'd walk up to where there were
7:02
horses. And I discovered through that
7:04
movement and walking that I felt safe, that it was minutes.
7:10
It took me to de stress, not hours.
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And it just made me feel freer. So what I was understanding
7:16
interceptively so internally was that movement helped me to feel
7:20
safe and regulated. And it returned me back into
7:22
that regulated state. Yeah.
7:25
And what was really beautiful at that time was that because we
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weren't looking at each other, talking at each other, my son
7:31
and I, he was next to me and we're moving along.
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The conversations were really natural and we talked about lots
7:36
of things, and I feel like that experience with him over a long
7:41
time really cemented our relationship as, you know,
7:44
mother and child, but also supporting each other through a
7:46
really yucky situation. Yeah, I mean, that's side on
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side. That's kind of proven in a lot
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of places. I know Men's Shed sees it.
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We certainly see it after all. Yeah, people are walking with
8:00
each other. But these coping mechanisms,
8:04
like they sounded like they helped, yes, but it also from it
8:11
sounded like it wasn't enough. Yeah.
8:15
So like where I sort of became a little bit curious too, was that
8:20
I couldn't think of my way out of it.
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I didn't need more tools. I just needed more.
8:24
I needed to know more. And I then sort of, you know,
8:28
was always outside in the garden, and then I wanted to
8:31
study. Well, why is this working for
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me? So I've, yeah, definitely became
8:34
curious into wanting to know the science behind it.
8:37
But one day, the copeman mechanisms, they kind of stopped
8:41
helping you. Yeah, Didn't they?
8:42
On a walk with your son. Yeah, I kind of, I came to a
8:45
moment where I felt like the only way out of this situation
8:50
is if I'm going to die or he's going to kill me.
8:53
Like, you know, and I kind of froze and I sort of became stuck
8:57
and like. In that moment, yeah.
8:59
So you had a realisation. The penny dropped, Yeah.
9:03
And with that came. Yeah, I've got to.
9:06
I've got to change this. Yeah, I can't.
9:08
I can't stay anymore. I could clear his day.
9:11
Yeah, yeah. And so that's sort of when I
9:13
started my plan of leaving. And I think it's probably, I
9:17
didn't actually plan to talk about this, but I think it's
9:19
probably worth going on a tangent on this.
9:23
But what? What does a plan look like?
9:28
Yeah, and this is the really tricky thing, you know, like.
9:31
For anyone that might be. Absolutely.
9:34
You know, anyone trying to leave an abusive relationship, be it,
9:36
you know, emotional, physical or even financial, that's the most
9:41
risky time for a person exiting a relationship is when they're
9:45
planning to leave. Yeah.
9:47
And so not giving the cue. So for me, because I was a sole
9:51
breadwinner, I had to actually plan a longer game to leave.
9:56
You know, I had to make sure I had money, I had somewhere to
9:58
go. I had to get everything
10:00
organised because if I went back it would probably end really
10:04
terribly for me physically so I had to leave permanently.
10:08
So with the help of my family, you know, and my family are very
10:13
supportive and I could see the signs.
10:15
They were very supportive in helping me organise a house
10:19
removalists and everything so I could just do this sweet uplift
10:23
and go on. But for people without that,
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it's really hard. It's hard to escape.
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It's hard to have money if you've got children to think
10:32
about their safety and having a plan, you know, whether it's
10:35
engaging with crisis supports, making sure that you're, you've
10:40
got a, your phone charge so that you can call for help.
10:43
Or even having someone in your team or you know, as in your
10:47
family networks where if you just send an emoji like, I don't
10:50
know, making up an emoji like a pineapple, that means that
10:53
that's your SOS for help and to call the police.
10:55
Like having plans to that level of detail because you can't
10:59
predict what the other person's going to do in that level of
11:02
crisis. It's equal parts confronting,
11:08
but also fascinating that it's it's kind of like an operation.
11:12
It is like a covert operation. Yeah, that, yeah, I mean, it
11:16
just shouldn't be that way, but it obviously is Where you.
11:20
Yeah. Where where can people go to get
11:23
this? Because some people don't think
11:24
this way. How can they get this help to
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plan? I think looking at the crisis
11:33
centre, so the women's crisis centre, I can't think of the
11:36
name of the. Top.
11:36
That's all right. We'll put in the show.
11:37
Now, yeah, also contacting, you know, the police also, I know
11:43
places like Croon your house and there's another refuge in town,
11:47
but they're not crisis accommodation or even contacting
11:50
family. But it's like literally having
11:53
an escape plan or a safety plan for yourself and making sure
11:56
that that person doesn't realise what you're doing because that's
11:59
when the control starts to happen or they'll start to block
12:01
access and it's really tricky. Or even tug on the emotional
12:06
Yeah, heartstrings of it'll be different from now.
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Or they'll cut your money off. Or, you know, they'll they'll
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block access, or take away the car keys.
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Or, you know, let down your car tyres.
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Like people go to lengths to protect what they control.
12:20
Yeah, confronting, yeah. After you made, after you had
12:25
the realisation that you had to go, what happened?
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It probably took about six months to actually leave.
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So treading water, you know, and I think to the other challenge
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from my experience was that we were from different cultures.
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So I'm from, you know, a middle class Australian, Canberra,
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local family and my husband was from New Zealand.
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So he was Maori. And so abuse and violence, it's
12:57
just part of the culture, It's part of that, you know, alpha
13:00
male. And I'm generalising here, you
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know, this is my experience. But for him it was, he was
13:06
entitled to have this life and I was going to provide for him.
13:09
But also violence was normal. It was not.
13:12
It was not uncommon for him to see his dad beat up his mum
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after coming home drunk from the night on the booze with his
13:18
family. Like that was their norm.
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So for us, we had this a mismatch right from the
13:24
beginning of what our norms were in our lives and our families.
13:29
Yeah. And you, you've prompted me to
13:32
think, which was very clearly, I think articulated, but it also
13:36
came through your words. You want, you wanted that type
13:45
of behaviour to stop with you and your son.
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That's right. Yeah.
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And I was really concerned that I couldn't protect him from
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seeing all of this trauma and and the ongoing impact.
14:01
And while my ex husband was very smart in doing it, at times when
14:06
he wasn't home, there were periods when he was home and
14:09
even though he'd say, you know, boy, go to your room, I'm he
14:12
could still hear it right. And so that part of me was like,
14:16
this needs to stop. I cannot have this
14:19
intergenerational trauma and abuse continuing.
14:22
This cycle has to stop. And so it took so much effort
14:27
and determination to end this relationship because, you know,
14:30
ingrained in me was you've got to be married.
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You had a child so young, this is what life looks like to be
14:36
successful. And so for me then to say that I
14:39
was this single mom, I felt like a failure.
14:42
So there was so much complexity to this environment, but at the
14:46
end of the day, my son was my guiding light.
14:48
I had to do this for him because I didn't want him to repeat this
14:52
pattern with his family and and that was the motivating factor
14:56
in the end. Yeah, it is clear as day and
15:01
kudos to you. When you look back, are you like
15:06
almost amazed at yourself? It's more that I've packed away
15:12
that experience and I choose to not think about it anymore.
15:16
Yeah. So I wouldn't say amazed.
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It was just like I've just, I'm the way I see it, I'm a visual
15:22
thinker is I just keep moving forward.
15:24
I keep propelling. I keep, you know, if I can help
15:27
one person live a better life, if I can show people that if you
15:32
don't give up on yourself, you can go through the hard stuff
15:34
because you've been there before, then that's OK too.
15:37
So I think for me it's about just acknowledging sure it
15:41
happened, but not dwelling on it because I'm not my past.
15:45
Yeah, 100%. Yeah, you are.
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You are what you do. Yeah, you touched a little bit
15:51
on it, and it would have been really hard for you because you
15:55
said one of your coping mechanisms was to become this
16:00
overachiever. You know, you did everything,
16:03
everything. And you said also that you had
16:07
these markers for what a successful life looks like.
16:12
And then you have to make this decision that, one, acknowledges
16:17
that you can't keep going, A, you're not this overachiever,
16:20
whether that's a right or wrong in your mind.
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And two, that you're going against what your marker for
16:26
success is at that time, which is, yeah, married life.
16:32
I know when my mum was diagnosed with cancer I lost a big part of
16:39
my identity that just pretty much to shortly put it that
16:43
everything would be OK if you can make it so I know what it
16:47
likes to be without a belief, structure or identity.
16:53
What was it like for you? Yeah, it was really hard because
16:56
my role and my identity was I was, I really don't want to say
17:01
his name. I was his wife, you know, and
17:04
that was who I was like, I wasn't a person, I was his wife.
17:08
And so for me not being the wife of this really staunch marry guy
17:12
that was real respected, I kind of went, well, who am I as a
17:15
person and what is my purpose here?
17:18
And so it took me a long time to figure that out.
17:20
But through this interesting journey, you know, I've, I feel
17:24
like I've found who I am as a person and what my role is and
17:27
also what my purpose is in life. Now It's been, it's been very
17:31
interesting. Well, I'm glad you and again,
17:34
thank you for going into that because I, I do believe that
17:39
these sorts of stories help people, even if they're not
17:42
similar. The, the, the idea of going
17:45
through something in overcoming it and becoming a stronger
17:49
version of yourself is an important narrative that we need
17:53
to tell ourselves. And you kind of touched on it.
17:56
So I think, you know, you spoke about it being a new beginning.
18:02
What did that new beginning look like?
18:05
When did you start to feel like you were?
18:09
I mean, you might, you might still be recovering, but you
18:12
know, where you where you walk out?
18:13
Yeah. This I feel, I feel like I'm in
18:15
my new chapter now. You know, honestly, I feel like
18:19
it's just now, like in 2026, this is where I feel like
18:23
everything is coming into alignment and I feel like I'm
18:27
meant to be where I am. And it's taken all of that time
18:30
for so a decade, a decade of learning and pivoting and
18:34
restructuring what I do and how I live, but also being
18:37
comfortable with myself and going.
18:39
It's OK, you know? Yes, it's taken a decade.
18:43
A decade, yeah. I mean, I'm not, I'm not shocked
18:46
because even, you know, after my dad's death and then that was a
18:51
decade of figuring it out. That's really interesting, isn't
18:56
it? Well, I reckon there's a lot of
19:00
It's probably because people don't want to deal with hard
19:02
stuff. Yep, fair enough.
19:04
Yep, and so if we don't have to wade into the waters to help
19:08
figure out what's going on in our heads and life's going on,
19:13
why would we, you know, until until we're forced to and then
19:17
and then we and then we do and then we're happy we did.
19:20
But you're I mean, it's not. It wasn't like I imagine it
19:24
wasn't a watershed moment where you go.
19:26
I feel good now. I felt terrible for the past 10
19:29
years. It sounds like you built
19:32
yourself up again. Yeah, and it's that slow, slow
19:35
burn that build, right? It's about OK, getting my family
19:39
stable. And then I looked at, well, what
19:42
brings me joy and, you know, working for the web or the
19:46
cloud, this invisible thing was not satisfying.
19:49
Or, you know, invest so much time into like, identifying
19:52
information architecture for a website.
19:54
And then someone would go, let's just put a red button and put
19:57
click here. And I'll be just like, oh, my
19:59
brain is exploding. Like I've got to do something to
20:02
help people. And so I discovered occupational
20:05
therapy through my niece was born in tachycardia with a rare
20:10
genetic disorder. And every six weeks they're
20:12
going to Sydney Children's Hospital.
20:14
And tumours ate her ulna in her arm and she had to see
20:19
occupational therapy for a splint.
20:21
And I was like, what is this splinting stuff?
20:23
And this is really interesting and I want to play with that
20:25
stuff. And I sort of became curious and
20:28
that led me to kiss goodbye my, you know, 12 or 13 year career
20:33
in public service and consulting and go and study my masters in
20:37
occupational therapy. And and that was sort of my AHA,
20:40
where I was like, you know what, if I can help one person be able
20:45
to make a cup of coffee and not spill something on themselves or
20:48
be able to get their mail because they they had anxiety
20:51
and they couldn't leave the house, then I feel like I'm
20:54
achieving something. When I compare that to working
20:56
for the cloud and the click here button, right.
20:59
Yeah, Yeah. It was more satisfying.
21:00
It's what, a sliding doors moment.
21:02
Yeah. Where it's a, it's a confluence
21:05
of things, isn't it? Yeah.
21:07
You know, you just obviously exiting 1 chapter and then
21:11
something else happening around you that sort of prompted you to
21:14
go. Yeah, somewhere else, but
21:17
through your struggle, and it kind of came to me before we
21:20
went into this in it. But struggle forces us to cope.
21:24
Sometimes we're lucky where the coping mechanisms are good.
21:27
Like I had good friends, good exercise habits, so I kind of
21:32
landed on my feet in a sense. I had other bad coping
21:35
mechanisms, but that was more like thinking patterns and stuff
21:38
like that. And we touched on it a little
21:41
bit before, but you stumbled across coping mechanisms that
21:46
are going to take us into this, this next phase of your life.
21:51
In a sense. What were the first coping
21:55
mechanisms? And then, yeah, how did they
21:57
build throughout that traumatic time that you experienced?
22:01
It's a movement, right? Just getting out the door and
22:03
walking, walking with my son. And then when I moved, I thought
22:08
that was like a new beginning and I needed to fill my time
22:12
because I'm not very good like you with the unhelpful thinking
22:15
style, too much in here in your head.
22:17
So I discovered running and I felt good.
22:21
Like sure, some days I really didn't feel like running and I'd
22:24
be like, oh God, you know, I don't want to do it.
22:25
But I sort of said to myself, just 5 minutes out the door.
22:28
And that was my little mantra. Or the other mantra was feet on
22:31
the floor, out the door feet. On the floor out the.
22:33
Door. Yeah.
22:34
And so 5 minutes. And if I was feeling crappy
22:36
after 5 minutes, go home. But guess what?
22:38
I never went home. I just kept going, Yeah, So good
22:42
trick. Yeah.
22:42
And it was just about how to get this little horrible thinking
22:46
style or like, I like to give, like the unhelpful thinking
22:49
styles a name. So, yeah.
22:51
So you can give your person in your head a name like Karen or
22:54
whatever name you want, and you can tell Karen.
22:56
'S to go away. Karen's out there.
22:57
Yeah. Sorry, Karen.
22:59
They're already getting a rough shake.
23:00
I know. Yeah.
23:01
We'll have to come up with a. New, yeah.
23:03
But you know, telling that person in your head to just go
23:05
away for a minute and quieten down, and that's sort of what I
23:08
started to do. That's interesting.
23:10
I got I, I've got 3 kids, OK, and one of them Jimmy is, let's
23:18
say he's very careful like his, like his dad when he was a kid,
23:21
like well, like his dad now, bit risk oriented.
23:24
And I've started to teach him to say shut up brain, I'm going to
23:27
do it. Anyway, there you go.
23:29
OK, you've got your own version, so that's quite funny here in a
23:32
5 year old. Yeah, I love that.
23:34
Brain, I'm gonna do it anyway. I love that, but that's what we
23:36
need to instil these tools for life enough our children and
23:40
ourselves, right? Yeah.
23:41
Because our brain stops us from doing so much, you know, and,
23:46
and as an occupational therapist, and with that lens,
23:48
I'm always about try first, then decide, you know, try a new
23:52
happy, try a new occupation, whatever it is, give yourself a
23:55
chance to try it and experience it before you just shut down an
23:58
idea. So I think, yeah, I love that
24:01
phrase that you've got. Have a crack, see what happens.
24:03
Yep. You just lit up when you were
24:07
speaking about these things. Yeah, you're obviously
24:12
passionate about it. Yeah, 100%.
24:15
And it's through them. This is the lovely segue where
24:19
when I did become an occupational therapist, I worked
24:21
in an acute mental health setting.
24:23
And so it's, you know, people present an Ed in crisis, you
24:27
kind of help them to bed things down, but it's just that one
24:30
point in time. And I also looked after people
24:34
in the community who were past the crisis stage, but they were
24:37
still unwell. And I saw that movement with
24:41
them just changed them, and they lit up, too.
24:44
And I'd have people presenting at Ed to come and ask me to go
24:47
for a walk with them. Yeah.
24:49
Because, again, movement, right, this, this passive way of
24:55
engaging in nature and moving made us feel good.
24:59
Yeah. Yeah, I you've made me think
25:01
about something that I wrote down for you, but I can't find
25:06
it. But what it was, was you were
25:09
you, you were at a point where you started to take people out
25:14
of the clinical setting and for a walk down by the river.
25:19
And you said you felt like you were a little bit worried that
25:22
it was unprofessional. But then those fears were
25:26
immediately quelled, if that's the word, because you could just
25:32
see the impact it was having in real time making that side by
25:35
side and the walls were coming down.
25:46
I mean, like, how are you? How?
25:50
Yeah, how? I don't know what the question
25:52
is, but how are you finding the contrast between clinical and
26:00
practical? Yeah, and that's what I found
26:03
really interesting. You know, I was in a rural NSW
26:07
town and, you know, you'd have this sort of people that would
26:10
present, you know, and you could see the little pattern.
26:12
I can seem to identify patterns in people for some reason.
26:16
Yeah, that's my superpower. But I just noticed that by
26:21
saying, hey, we're going to walk down to the river, just, it was
26:25
almost like we became two people just going.
26:27
Well, we did become two people going for a walk, but it changed
26:30
the clinician and client role. And we became just two people
26:34
having a chat. And there was so much doubt that
26:38
I was not being professional. You're right.
26:40
And that I wrote about it in the book.
26:42
And what I was seeing was that people were starting to thrive.
26:46
You know, they were then going to the gym.
26:48
They were meeting friends for coffee, all by me taking it out
26:52
of this white clinical setting that is cognitively overbearing.
26:57
You've got bright lights. You've got hospital sounds.
27:00
And then when you go into nature, you can hear the
27:02
rhythmic, rhythmic music, sorry, movement of the river.
27:06
You hear, you know, your footsteps, you can hear birds.
27:09
And all of that kind of brings down our nervous system.
27:13
And that, from a scientific perspective, is that soft
27:15
fascination. So, you know, and I can talk
27:18
about all the science, but that's in our DNA as humans,
27:22
right? And we've forgotten that, and we
27:24
are. So we're so smart with
27:26
technology and being indoors, but the simplest thing that we
27:29
have and that thing that's always there is nature and being
27:32
outside and we're forgotten. So yeah, I think it's my job is
27:36
to help people remember. And with Running for Resilience,
27:39
outdoors is our friend. Well, it's the perfect segue
27:43
again. This book is, I guess the next
27:47
chapter that followed. It kind of is putting in
27:53
everything you've been through, everything you went through,
27:56
went into sort of this real world application with the work
28:00
that you did, and then you've weaved it all together from
28:04
academic setting. Yeah.
28:07
What is Thrive in Nature? Yeah, So what I sort of
28:11
discovered, and I guess this is my beautiful Running for
28:15
resilience Part 2, was that when I left acute mental health, I
28:19
discovered, ah, Farah, you know, many years ago.
28:22
And that was for me to switch my brain off and to be out and Co
28:25
regulate with people. And then I started social
28:29
prescribing. And I don't know if anyone knows
28:31
what that is, but basically instead of giving people a
28:33
prescription for a medication or to do therapies, it's telling
28:37
people your script is to go out for a walk for 5 minutes.
28:40
It's great. And so I started recommending
28:42
Arthur R because for the neuro diverse population I work with,
28:46
they need to know, is there a toilet?
28:48
What's the sound like? At what time is it?
28:51
Is there places to go if it's raining?
28:53
So they need all these questions answered.
28:56
And the beauty of our for our is that it's expected.
28:59
The same thing happens every week, the same format, the same
29:02
sort of intro. There are friendly people to
29:04
greet you. So all of these worries and
29:06
concerns kind of dissipated for people and they kept turning up
29:11
and I was like, what is this secret sauce at a Farrar and I
29:13
need to know more about it, right?
29:15
And so I had this magnet on my fridge for three years.
29:20
So I went to the World Federation Occupational Therapy
29:23
Conference in 2022 and Boston Uni were doing a doctoral degree
29:28
in OT and I had it on my fridge for three years.
29:31
And then I got an email about an information session.
29:35
I thought, oh, maybe I need to find out about AFRA and study a
29:39
doctorate. So I enrolled at Boston Union,
29:42
got into my surprise and started studying why nature and people
29:47
with neurodiversity and intellectual disabilities were
29:49
responding in particular with at the back of my mind was AFRA.
29:53
I'm like, what is the source here?
29:55
I need to find the answer. What is the source?
29:58
Well, it's that consistency, yeah.
30:01
It's also having the understanding of the
30:03
environment. So what is the flora and the
30:05
fauna? It's also having an
30:07
understanding of the expectation.
30:10
Do I have to run? Do I have to walk?
30:12
Like an understanding that, but also that they can choose to
30:16
participate or not. So they could choose to walk or
30:18
not. They can.
30:19
They can have an ability to have their own autonomy, but still be
30:24
part of the group. And with all the clients that I
30:27
work with, so I work with adult population, all of my neuro
30:31
diverse clients want to make friends and they just didn't
30:34
know how. But somehow, and I still got the
30:36
answer to this somehow that secret sauce that offer us the
30:40
friendship and the communities, right.
30:42
And seeing someone and just saying hello or making eye
30:44
contact. And I think that's part of it
30:46
too, is the community as aspect. Yeah.
30:49
And I think that connection with others is so integral to
30:52
successive offer. When you look at other running
30:55
programmes or communities around, it's the the friendship
30:59
and the communities there. Yeah, I mean, I've got to say,
31:04
you know, living down the coast, I miss a lot about Canberra, but
31:09
a lot about our for our. One of the things I miss most is
31:14
that little community of neuro diverse people.
31:17
Like oh man, like the smile on Paulie's face whenever he's
31:21
wearing his merch. He's just rocking up.
31:23
He's great. And then maybe my favourite day
31:26
was, well, Down syndrome day. Yeah.
31:29
Kayla got up and spoke in front of everyone.
31:31
Joe gave us a big bad Rev up. It was just I left that evening
31:37
on top of the world. Me too.
31:39
And you know, Kayla and I worked on what she was going to say
31:43
through this natural conversation, and she was so
31:46
proud to do that. And the fact that she also
31:48
brought her boyfriend along and he was there cheering her along,
31:51
it was like my little heart was glowing so much.
31:53
Like I was so proud. But that inclusivity part,
31:57
that's really important because they want the same things that
32:01
all neurotypical people want. They want to feel love.
32:03
They want to be belonging, they want to be the best they can,
32:06
and they want community, and I think that's so important, yeah.
32:11
I I was thinking about because I really like their company.
32:15
Yeah, like neuro Diverse. I really enjoy, like kids as
32:18
well. And I think what it comes down
32:19
to is it's just such a genuine, authentic, but base level
32:24
operating system. In a sense.
32:26
It's like you talk about the things that they want to square
32:30
off before they come. It's like, is there a toilet?
32:31
Is there, is it predictable? What's the expectation?
32:35
It's like it's actually things that everyone thinks about, but
32:37
a lot of us just got out worry about it later.
32:39
That's right. And it's, yeah, I just think
32:43
there's something there's like a little clue in there in that
32:46
it's a very, in a good way, simplistic view of R for R And
32:53
if the more we can make those things as simple and as easy as
32:57
possible, the better experience everyone's going to have.
33:00
That's right. And that's, you know, also our
33:03
sensory systems, our nervous system scans that environment
33:06
for threats before our brain catches up with what's
33:09
happening. It's always scanning.
33:10
Are we safe? What do I do if I'm not safe?
33:13
You know, and it's, I think with R for R, you've got the water,
33:17
so blue therapy and there's lots of emerging research around the
33:20
benefits of being near water for humans.
33:23
You've got the green therapy, which is being out in nature to
33:25
help regulate us. And so R for R is helping us to
33:29
to develop, you know, autonomic flexibility, our ability to come
33:33
back to that regulated state over and over again through
33:37
understanding the environment, but through that beautiful
33:40
rhythmic movement of walking or running.
33:42
Yeah. And that's all the key elements
33:44
of it. You know, it's just an amazing
33:46
thing to have. It's cool to hear, but let's
33:50
zoom out. Let's talk about these.
33:51
So thrive. Thrive in nature.
33:53
Thrive isn't just exceeding it's it's an acronym.
33:59
Yes. What for?
34:01
So basically I developed a road map for people to have little
34:07
bits of tools in their toolkit. And I talk about this all the
34:10
time. It's not a physical toolkit,
34:12
it's tools that we need and have as humans.
34:15
And So what I started to do was unpack how I was using nature to
34:19
regulate myself, but what I've been researching at a doctoral
34:22
level as well. And so Thrive is an acronym, and
34:26
we don't all get to the same destination by following the
34:28
same road map. We might take different ways.
34:30
So Thrive is a series of moves that people can do, pardon me,
34:35
in everyday life to help them to feel good, to function well.
34:38
And so I have a whole framework that I've developed.
34:41
And, you know, you can be active in nature or you can be passive
34:44
in nature. Yeah.
34:46
So Thrive is stands for a few different things that's in the
34:50
book. TuneIn.
34:51
Yes, TuneIn is the first one. Harness nature, Yes.
34:54
Regulate, integrate, visualise and value and then expand.
34:59
Yeah, and you don't have to move through all those steps in that
35:02
order. You might start when you're
35:04
looking at thriving yourself. What are my values and my
35:08
vision? What do I want to do, whether
35:10
it's I actually just want to be able to move and walk around
35:14
outside without having a panic attack or my values might be
35:18
that I value integrity and kindness.
35:21
So I'm going to start being, you know, greeting people at the
35:24
supermarket. So the road map itself is not to
35:27
work through in a circle. It's to take elements of it and
35:30
weave it into your daily life. And that's where like, you know,
35:33
just tuning into nature. You know, it might be the
35:36
starting a new habit like in the morning looking out the window
35:40
or having a glass of water outside or taking a phone call
35:44
and walking around the block. So it's about how we can use
35:47
nature in everyday life to help us to regulate and come back to
35:50
that rest and digest. You know, if we start using our
35:54
nervous system to help regulate and the more times that we can
35:57
come back to that safe state, the more able we're able to
36:00
function in our daily lives as well so that we're not stuck in
36:03
fight or flight or freeze. Yeah, and I guess, I mean, I'm,
36:09
I'm already kind of just applying these to myself, but
36:12
seeing it in your story too, Like TuneIn, you obviously tune
36:16
into the environment around you exactly like you said.
36:19
But as you were getting through, as it was like stretching out
36:24
and you were getting more fatigued, you started to tune
36:26
into how close to burnout you were.
36:30
Oh, big time. And now you would be able to
36:32
notice the flags, which makes it easier for you to say no to a
36:35
certain commitment or things like that.
36:37
That's a work in progress. Yeah, right.
36:40
Because I know at the end of the day, I like people pleasing.
36:43
And so for me to say no is really challenging.
36:46
But yeah, identifying the science of burnout because
36:48
that's what nature helps us do, is 5 minutes in.
36:51
Nature helps relieve anxiety and depression.
36:55
And even if you're feeling super tired, going for a walk can help
36:57
wake you up. But I know that if I am really,
37:01
really tired, I know that I need to pay a back.
37:04
I need to scale back on things and saying no is a really active
37:08
process for me to say no to because it's so hard.
37:11
Which is made easier by the V That's right part of it.
37:16
So values like defining I guess who you are as a person or what
37:20
you value. Yeah, and boundaries come into
37:22
values as well, right? And and being confident and
37:27
competent in yourself to say no, you know, that doesn't align
37:29
with what I'm working on now. Maybe it did in the past, but
37:32
no, not right yet. Yeah.
37:33
And these things like, I mean, help you regulate, but what
37:37
what, what's integrate? Can you?
37:39
Yeah, it's about how you can weave little sips of nature into
37:43
your daily life, which I spoke about.
37:45
And Integrate is really about being more active in our
37:49
intentional use of nature so that we can, you know, we might
37:53
take a walk around the block a little bit longer when we park
37:56
the car to integrate nature into our lives, or it might be that
38:01
we play with the kids a bit longer outside.
38:03
So it's about how we can weave these little moments in nature
38:06
into our daily occupations. Yeah, it does make such a
38:11
difference being in nature. And I think I can see it so
38:14
clearly with kids, with my kids that is, is you can just see him
38:20
light up. I'm taking Jim.
38:23
Jim's caught 4 fish before I've caught my first.
38:26
So he's doing quite well. But I like, it's partly because
38:29
I just love watching. He's just in the zone.
38:32
He's just casting. He's just there and I'm like,
38:35
that's so cool. That's so cool that he is just
38:39
not a care in the world. Yep.
38:41
And so he'll be a fisherman. For life, that's called the flow
38:43
state from a scientific perspective, right?
38:45
When you are engaged in that activity, nothing else is
38:49
happening. You know, you're just so
38:50
focused. That's where the state that we
38:53
should try to be at, right? Yeah.
38:55
Is being one with ourselves and just being part of that
38:58
occupation. But when you unpack fishing, you
39:01
know, you've got your vision input, you've got the sound,
39:04
you've got your body position. There's so many sensory systems
39:08
engaged, giving you all those beautiful cues to our brain, our
39:11
operating system, that we are OK and we are safe and we're
39:14
regulated. Yeah.
39:15
And so, yeah, fishing as an occupation is a great de
39:18
stressor. Yeah, he's, yeah.
39:20
I'm going to have to get over my sea sickness because he's going
39:24
to love it. I think it's a really important
39:27
one. It's expand.
39:29
Yeah, I want to use the example with that neuro diverse
39:35
community, but I think also anyone, one of the things we've
39:37
realised with Wednesday is that big crowds can be lonely
39:41
sometimes and they can be intimidating and it represents a
39:47
little bit of a behaviour I think we can all be a bit better
39:53
at. Is that when something is up
39:55
there that scares us, we kind of need to find ways to walk
40:01
towards it. But in a way that doesn't
40:05
overextend us, which is, I think, what you speak about.
40:08
Exactly. And and it's, you know, checking
40:11
in with yourself, that introceptive awareness of like
40:13
my heart starting to race or I've got this feeling in my gut
40:17
where I'm going to be sick. And it's really tuning in to how
40:20
we are, but also looking at the cues that our brain is telling
40:24
us, you know, when we start to wake up from sleep and we're
40:26
like, oh, I'm still thinking about that thing.
40:28
You know, how do we shut that off?
40:30
And how do we then, I guess, move past that so it doesn't
40:34
hold us up and brings us back to that regulated state?
40:37
Yeah, it's really tricky. You said earlier in this
40:42
interview or a conversation that now feels like your best self in
40:51
a sense, like you feel like you're where you're meant to be
40:53
and you're going where you want to go.
40:56
Where's this taken you? What are you doing?
40:58
What am I doing so I'm like weeks away from becoming a
41:01
doctor or graduate from Boston uni?
41:04
So you're weeks away from being doctor.
41:05
Yeah, I'll be Doctor Nanny, Thanks.
41:07
Doctor. Nanny.
41:08
Because I'm a grandma. Yeah, well done.
41:11
Yeah, so put. Your hand up on a plane.
41:13
If anyone needs help, no. No, I don't do blood and vomit
41:16
and anything else. OK, so I'm not a necessarily a
41:18
real doctor. Yeah, yeah, I'm a doctor of
41:20
occupational therapy. Yeah.
41:23
So my research has been really interesting and my clinical
41:28
supervisor who's the head of the programme at Boston, she has
41:31
been so supportive. So I've presented.
41:33
So I did a pilot study with a small group of participants and
41:37
that's some of the some of the interesting evidence.
41:40
So a lot of the evidence came out of COVID for people with
41:43
neurodiversity because that was our only safe occupation and
41:47
they discovered nature and walking in nature.
41:49
But what the evidence shows is that it's small groups in
41:52
nature. Small groups.
41:54
Yeah, for neuro diverse people, right.
41:56
So three or four people in a group, that's probably as big
41:59
because some people have sensory defensiveness or auditory
42:03
avoiding behaviour. So loud noises kind of stimulate
42:07
people. So I started doing a pilot study
42:11
about nature. And So what I do is I meet with
42:15
people in the community, we do a mood check in before we go out
42:18
on our walk and then a mood check in after.
42:21
And this is teaching them how to understand their moods.
42:23
Because I'm generally speaking, a lot of neurodiverse people
42:27
don't really understand our moods or understand the moods of
42:30
other people or facial expression.
42:32
So I'm trying to teach people how to regulate.
42:34
So they might turn up and say I've got one client who says I'm
42:37
feeling neutral, which means she's OK.
42:40
I can. I can hear the voice.
42:42
Yeah, that's so good. But at the end of the walk, they
42:46
feel good or they feel happy or they feel relaxed or another
42:50
one, she says. I feel spiritual.
42:52
Spiritual. Right.
42:54
But what this does and what it shows is that through the walk
42:58
in my programme, they're able to identify changes in their body.
43:02
So my pilot study sort of developed a little template of
43:05
how we can engage in nature. So as a group we decide where we
43:09
go, we do a meditation, so educating people around breath
43:13
work because we know through breathing it helps with our
43:16
brain and it helps regulate our nervous system.
43:19
We also do nature art and then we check in.
43:22
But what that really showed me was having these expected
43:26
regular again, like are far activities in nature.
43:30
The people are coming back. Yeah.
43:31
And so that's been my study. And so I've presented that at
43:36
the American Aspire conference last year in Philadelphia.
43:40
I presented the research again in Australia at the Australian
43:43
Occupational Therapy Conference. And then I've just come back
43:45
from the World Federation Conference in Bangkok presenting
43:48
my research and nature to the world stage.
43:51
So it's exciting and nervous at the same time that someone from
43:54
Canberra is looking at nature and why people with
43:57
neurodiversity need it. Well, it's funny, you've just
44:00
labelled those two emotions exciting and nervous because I
44:04
remember I think it was 2019, it was a penny drop moment where it
44:09
was in the late up to the Canberra Raiders playing in the
44:12
grand final. And I would just get flutters of
44:14
this like sensation in my, in my chest.
44:20
And I was very clearly associating with excitement.
44:24
Then I was like, you know what? That thing was almost identical
44:27
to when I was going through the hardest time in my life.
44:30
That that that big sensation in the chest.
44:34
It's just like this. It is.
44:35
It's a bit of a fight or flight. Yeah.
44:37
I was like, isn't that interesting?
44:38
Yeah. Sometimes all you need is say
44:40
how you interpret the information.
44:41
Exactly. So only excitement, Yeah.
44:44
And nerves mean you care. Yeah, but how has it been
44:48
received? Has the information been
44:51
received? Really positively.
44:52
So I'm actually looking to, this is my ultimate goal, right is I
44:57
want to educate other occupational therapists around
45:00
the world on how they can normalise and use nature in the
45:03
everyday practise. So I'm developing an online
45:06
programme for people to learn how to use Nature for Life,
45:09
which is the programme, and how to then apply the Thrive
45:12
framework to their clinical settings.
45:14
It's great and it's not to. It's not to, it's something that
45:18
our Ferrari is finding is we're not trying to diminish the the
45:23
complexities and the specifics of certain type of treatment.
45:27
They all have their place. We're just trying to emphasise
45:30
what we know works exactly in, in tandem with the other things.
45:33
Exactly. And it, and Benny's actually
45:36
been really articulate in how he's speaking about the nervous
45:40
system. Yeah.
45:40
And how that kind of is, maybe it should be used more in tandem
45:45
with mental health. You know, it for at least some
45:50
conditions. And I just think what you're
45:53
doing with bringing it back to the basics almost, and it seems
45:57
to work, Yeah. Yeah.
45:59
And I think too, before we can build resilience
46:02
psychologically, we need to develop it physiologically,
46:06
right? So being able to go for a walk
46:08
for 5 minutes, for 10 minutes, go for a 2 minute run.
46:11
That physical resilience will help us cognitively in the long
46:15
run. And I think that's what we need
46:17
to, to keep emphasising that it's not about getting your best
46:20
run or getting the best time. It's about turning up and tuning
46:24
into yourself time and time again.
46:26
So we can become regulated and have that flexibility because we
46:30
as humans experience all emotions and it's not normal to
46:33
just be flatlining all the time. We need to go that up and down.
46:36
But to return to safety or is like that's the superpower part
46:40
of how we can regulate ourselves and that's Co regulation after
46:44
hours important. And it's a belief that you can
46:46
get back to that, yeah, point where you feel good, isn't it?
46:51
Exactly. Homeostasis.
46:52
It might take a little bit longer, yeah, but I know that
46:55
I'll get. I know that I'll get there
46:56
eventually. Yeah, and then tuning into your
46:58
little butterflies like I'm holding my breath.
47:00
OK, relax the shoulders and breathe.
47:03
And at least it mitigates it somewhat.
47:04
Might not fix it, no, but at least it gives you a sense of
47:07
control. Yeah, which is sometimes half
47:10
the battle. Shannon, I've got 2 questions
47:13
for you. 1 is because it's so good to hear that you're
47:22
thriving for, to use a proper word, what would you tell
47:28
yourself if you could go back to when you were in that traumatic
47:35
period of life that you spoke about earlier in the podcast?
47:39
That's a really good question. I would say believe in yourself.
47:45
You know, it's not right. You can do this, you know?
47:48
Yeah. That's great.
47:50
That's a great message. I think anyone can hear.
47:52
Yeah. And the last question is if you
47:57
could interview anyone on this podcast or if we or if you want
48:00
someone to come onto the podcast, we like chucking it out
48:03
in the universe. Who would you want?
48:06
Who would you like to see on the after Our podcast?
48:08
Oh, God, that's a really good question.
48:11
You know who I love listening to?
48:13
Robert De Costello. Yeah, I love, I love his
48:17
metaphor when he talks about, you know, running as a metaphor
48:20
for life. You know, you've got to keep
48:21
pushing up the hill and you'll get there eventually, and then
48:24
you can coast down. I love the way he speaks.
48:27
He's yeah, I mean, he's great. I I was so shocked.
48:32
And what's the word like? So happy to realise that there
48:40
was like this world champion runner from Australia with just
48:46
a big moustache roaming around. I was like, how does this mean
48:50
not more of a cultural icon? This is just incredible.
48:53
So yeah, maybe we'll get him on because it's definitely up
48:56
alley. OK, yeah, and he's local too.
48:58
Yeah, well, maybe you'll interview him.
49:00
We'll see. But Shannon, thank you so much.
49:04
Can people read this? How can?
49:05
They so Thrive in Nature is available on Amazon.
49:08
If you just Google Thrive in Nature, you should find it
49:11
there. Beauty.
49:12
Well, we'll put it in the show notes as well, but thank you
49:15
very much. That was a tough discussion as
49:17
well, but also a very good one. Yeah, thank you so much for your
49:19
time. I really enjoyed chatting with
49:21
you. Hello.
49:22
Hello.