Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / Supporting a Grieving, Anxious Child

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Supporting a Grieving, Anxious Child · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hi, this is the Happy Families Podcast. Welcome. When your
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  Speaker 1: child has experienced multiple deaths of loved ones and now
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  Speaker 1: lies awake at night, terrified of death, terrified of being alone,
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  Speaker 1: terrified of going to sleep, how do you comfort him?
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  Speaker 1: What do you say to a young person who's learned
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  Speaker 1: I think way too early that people that you love
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  Speaker 1: can disappear. We're exploring the psychology behind childhood death, anxiety
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  Speaker 1: and practical strategies that actually help in today's podcast. Stay
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  Speaker 1: with us. Hello and welcome to the Happy Families Podcast,
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  Speaker 1: Real parenting Solutions every day. This is Australia's number one
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  Speaker 1: parenting podcast. We are Justin and Kylie Coulson and every
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  Speaker 1: Tuesday we tackle your tricky topics. If you'd like to
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  Speaker 1: submit a question, go to the super simple system at
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: happy families dot com. Do you just press record and
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: leave us a note? Otherwise you can email your voice
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: notes to podcasts at Happy families dot com. Do you Kylie?
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  Speaker 1: Today a tricky one. It's a follow on from last
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  Speaker 1: week's discussion about pending mortality. Based on that discussion, we
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  Speaker 1: received a voice note from Tess who visited Happy families
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  Speaker 1: dot com dot Au and Tess asked us this question.
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  Speaker 2: Hi, my name is Tess. I'm from the Abelian Victoria.
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  Speaker 2: I just like some tips of how to help my
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  Speaker 2: son to some big feelings his having when he's lying
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  Speaker 2: in bed at night surrounding death. He's terrified of it.
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  Speaker 2: There's a bit of history there. His friend passed from
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  Speaker 2: brain cancer, my dad, his grandpa passed away. He is
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  Speaker 2: great nana, and his nana has terminal cancer as well,
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  Speaker 2: and he's absolutely terrified of everything surrounding death, whether it
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  Speaker 2: be him or his loved ones. I'd just like to
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  Speaker 2: help him throw up somehow.
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  Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, I mean, Kylie. We talked last week
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  Speaker 1: about how life can sometimes be hard. This is what
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  Speaker 1: psychologists call, with this particular child, cumulative grief. So if
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  Speaker 1: kids are experiencing multiple significant losses in a relatively short
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  Speaker 1: period of time, developing brains struggle to process not just
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  Speaker 1: each individual death, but the pattern of loss itself. And
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  Speaker 1: research shows that children who have experienced cumulative grief often
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  Speaker 1: developed what looks like a kind of a generalized anxiety
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  Speaker 1: around mortality, around death. But it's just their mind trying
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  Speaker 1: to make sense of a world that suddenly feels really impermanent,
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  Speaker 1: really unpredictable, completely unsafe. So he's lost a friend, a grandpa,
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  Speaker 1: a great grandma, now facing his grandmother's terminal illness. That's
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  Speaker 1: a lot of loss for anyone, let alone a child
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  Speaker 1: who's still really developing his understanding of what mortality is
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  Speaker 1: and how it works.
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  Speaker 3: And I think that while we don't know his age,
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  Speaker 3: losing a friend, losing a peer, oh yeah, at any age,
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  Speaker 3: I don't think it actually matters because I know that
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  Speaker 3: you know, when we've lost adult friends.
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  Speaker 1: Yep, it's called an out of sequence death or an
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  Speaker 1: out of order death. So the way that it's to
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  Speaker 1: happen is that the older generations die before the younger
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  Speaker 1: generations die. And when you lose somebody way too young,
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  Speaker 1: certainly well before the older generations have passed along, it
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  Speaker 1: just shakes you. It absolutely, It makes you question everything
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  Speaker 1: about the permanence of your life. In some ways, that's
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  Speaker 1: actually quite good. Like there's this one theory that's out
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  Speaker 1: there called terror management theory. The idea is that at
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  Speaker 1: a general level, while ever we're remembering that we are
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  Speaker 1: in an impermanent state and that we are mortal and
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  Speaker 1: will die one day, it helps us to live more
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  Speaker 1: in the present. It helps us to be more grateful,
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  Speaker 1: more focused, more intentional. But I don't think that's helpful
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  Speaker 1: here when we're dealing with this generalized death anxiety. In fact,
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  Speaker 1: I think that it's going to amplify that. We don't
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  Speaker 1: want to keep on saying well, that's the point of
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  Speaker 1: mortality like that. That's not going to help. So that's
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  Speaker 1: not something that I think that we want to be
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  Speaker 1: talking to our kids about. That's going to make them
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  Speaker 1: even more worried. What it does emphasize, though, as you
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  Speaker 1: made the point, when you're young, this stuff can really
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  Speaker 1: throw you and you need the predictability, right, like you
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  Speaker 1: need to believe that the people that you love are
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  Speaker 1: going to be around you.
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  Speaker 3: And well, when you see great grandma die as a
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  Speaker 3: young child, while that's hard and you're going to miss them,
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  Speaker 3: it's very easy for mom and dad to talk about
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  Speaker 3: the fact that she's lived this really long life.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, we can celebrate it. We're sad, but we're kind
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  Speaker 1: of relieved as well.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, but when your best friend dies or appear in
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  Speaker 3: your classroom, even if you're not even close to them,
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  Speaker 3: particularly the very fact that you know someone who's your
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  Speaker 3: age has gone, that changes the dialogue, especially the internal dialogue,
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  Speaker 3: as you try to grapple with does that mean I could?
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  Speaker 1: And I think this is the key insight. His fear
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  Speaker 1: isn't about death as this abstract concept. It's about the
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  Speaker 1: very real pattern that he's witnessed as he has lost
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  Speaker 1: people that he loves. So his anxiety is actually evidence
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  Speaker 1: of how deeply is capable of loving someone and how
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  Speaker 1: much these relationships mean to him. But that doesn't help
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  Speaker 1: you as a parent when seeing your child suffer respect.
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  Speaker 1: I want to talk about why it peaks at bedtime,
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  Speaker 1: So on the podcast, I often talk about this thing
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  Speaker 1: called the default mode network. It's the part of your
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  Speaker 1: brain that switches on when you don't have to think
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  Speaker 1: about anything, and it's usually a really important part of
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  Speaker 1: your brain because it gets you thinking about your identity,
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  Speaker 1: about what your value. It gets you thinking about who
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  Speaker 1: you are and what matters to you. But with people
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  Speaker 1: who have anxiety, the default mode network kind of goes
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  Speaker 1: over active, and it starts thinking about a whole lot
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  Speaker 1: of things that you don't want it to be thinking
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  Speaker 1: about at times that you don't want to be thinking
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  Speaker 1: about them. So these fears are surfacing most intensely at
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  Speaker 1: bedtime because during the day his mind's occupied with school
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  Speaker 1: and with activities and with everything that's happening in his life.
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  Speaker 1: But when the lights go out and the house gets quiet,
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  Speaker 1: that's when his brain has the space to process what
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  Speaker 1: he's experienced. And there's some research from some sleep studies
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  Speaker 1: that tell us that the transition to sleep can with
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  Speaker 1: some kids make them make who are more vulnerable to
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  Speaker 1: anxious thoughts. It can naturally increase that because they're losing
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  Speaker 1: conscious control. So for a child who's learned that bad
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  Speaker 1: things can happen to people that he loves, the darkness
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  Speaker 1: and the quiet, instead of feeling peaceful like it does
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  Speaker 1: for most of us, can feel really threatening. This is
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  Speaker 1: an afflaw in his thinking. It's the default mode network
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  Speaker 1: doing what it's supposed to do. It's the nervous system
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  Speaker 1: doing what it's designed to do, which is scanned for
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  Speaker 1: threats when he's in a vulnerable state. The problem is
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  Speaker 1: that in this case, the threats that he's scanning for
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  Speaker 1: are real memories rather than the imaginary monster or the
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  Speaker 1: intruder or something like that. After the break, we need
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  Speaker 1: to talk about what we can do from a practical
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  Speaker 1: point of view to help your kids if they are
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  Speaker 1: dealing with this worry and fear about death. Okay, Kylie,
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  Speaker 1: you can hear and tests that she's right there for
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  Speaker 1: her son. You can tell that she's really switched on
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  Speaker 1: and aware of what's going on for him. So I
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  Speaker 1: want to share a couple of ideas. I think I
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  Speaker 1: have three or four of them that will likely be
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  Speaker 1: pretty aligned with what I'm sure Tess is already doing.
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  Speaker 1: The research shows that the most effective strategies are going
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  Speaker 1: to focus on connection and authentic relationship rather than trying
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  Speaker 1: to manage the behavior or going for some quick fixes.
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  Speaker 1: For ideas, Kylie, I'd like you to take the first
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  Speaker 1: couple and then I'll wrap us up.
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  Speaker 3: Well, I think the first one is really important. It's
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  Speaker 3: honestly about focusing on making bed time a time of
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  Speaker 3: real connection with your child, slowing things down and really
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  Speaker 3: being able to sit with them in whatever emotion they're
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  Speaker 3: feeling at the particular time.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I would say don't go digging for no,
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  Speaker 1: not at all, because that rumination that longly amplified and
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  Speaker 1: make it worse. But just being there and helping to
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  Speaker 1: feel safe and comfortable and making it that time of
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  Speaker 1: genuine connection, and.
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  Speaker 3: I think making a real ritual out of bed time,
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  Speaker 3: you know, whether that's rubbing them back if they like that,
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  Speaker 3: or putting some oils on and you know, just calming
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  Speaker 3: everything down.
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  Speaker 1: We've always found singing to our kids. They well, except
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  Speaker 1: for our youngest, all of our other kids have loved
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  Speaker 1: it when we just lay on the floor or lay
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  Speaker 1: in the bed beside them and sing them songs and
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  Speaker 1: rub their back.
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  Speaker 3: Cuddles and story time, those kinds of things will really
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  Speaker 3: help just calm their nervous system. Second, the second thing
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  Speaker 3: is it's really important that we follow their lead. Like
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  Speaker 3: you said, we're not we're not fishing for emotions. We're not.
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  Speaker 3: We're not trying to kind of dig up and deep
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  Speaker 3: and dark things. We really want to follow their lead.
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  Speaker 3: If they're actually happy, don't bring it up, you need to.
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  Speaker 1: The way that I say this is kids don't need therapists.
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  Speaker 1: They need parents. So don't try to be the psychologist.
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  Speaker 1: That will backfire, that will make things worse.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, So if they haven't, if they're in a great mood,
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  Speaker 3: let's celebrate that. You know, what are the things that
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  Speaker 3: you're grateful for today? Tell me about that. What was
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  Speaker 3: your highlight, what are you looking forward to tomorrow? Those
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  Speaker 3: kinds of questions that enable them to kind of live
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  Speaker 3: into that joyful space. But there are going to be
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  Speaker 3: times where it's going to be very obvious that they're
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  Speaker 3: actually not coping particularly well. And we might say it
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  Speaker 3: feels like you're really anxious right now, or you're a
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  Speaker 3: little bit sad tonight. Do you want to talk to
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  Speaker 3: me about that?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and those little scripts, it's so simple to say
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  Speaker 1: it looks like having a tough time tonight. It seems
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  Speaker 1: like a sad night. That's all you need. They will
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  Speaker 1: open up, or they'll they'll sink into your shoulder and
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  Speaker 1: hold you tight. That's really what you're looking for. I
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  Speaker 1: got a couple that I'd love to throw in the
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  Speaker 1: first one. Really, this kind of builds on what you've said.
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  Speaker 1: Just folks, on connection in the present moment. Don't make
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  Speaker 1: any promises about the future. Just be here right now.
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  Speaker 1: You can't actually promise to your kids that no one
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  Speaker 1: else is going to die. I think that's going to
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  Speaker 1: be dishonest. And he's already learned that people do die,
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  Speaker 1: so that will undermine your credibility and your relationship.
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  Speaker 3: And I think you can validate his feelings by acknowledging
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  Speaker 3: that you have those same thoughts.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and we miss them. Let's celebrate them. I
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  Speaker 1: even think, oh, actually I'm going to I'm jumping ahead.
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  Speaker 1: I want to share one more idea. But let me
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  Speaker 1: wrap this up just again, a simple script. I'm here
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  Speaker 1: with you right now, you're safe in bed. We love
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  Speaker 1: each other right now in this moment, You're okay, I'm okay,
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  Speaker 1: We're good, right and just being in the moment is
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  Speaker 1: a really big one. That really is me summarizing your
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  Speaker 1: first two I think researchers have this phrase. They talk
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  Speaker 1: about transitional comfort objects. So this is basically, it might
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  Speaker 1: be a photo album of happy memories with the people
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  Speaker 1: who's lost. It could be a special blanket that belonged
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  Speaker 1: to grandpa, maybe a journal where he can write letters
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  Speaker 1: to the people that he's lost, people who have died.
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  Speaker 3: I've seen people who've taken you know, Grandpa's shirt and
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  Speaker 3: made it into a Teddy.
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  Speaker 1: Bear or yeah, or a pillow case or something like that. Yeah. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So the key here is you want to give him
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  Speaker 1: that sense of volition, that choice, that agency in creating
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  Speaker 1: and using these transitional objects. You're not imposing them, but
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  Speaker 1: you can develop them together. That's that whole autonomy support
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  Speaker 1: that we talk about on the podcast all the time.
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  Speaker 3: For me, when I think about this as we kind
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  Speaker 3: of tie this all up, I actually think that rituals
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  Speaker 3: are a really important part of this process, especially for
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  Speaker 3: young kids. Having a way for them to find closure
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  Speaker 3: to the experience is really important. So growing up, I
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  Speaker 3: came from a Polynesian background, and as part of death,
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  Speaker 3: we would have a three day ceremony process or everybody
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  Speaker 3: would come together and we would actually be in the
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  Speaker 3: room with the dead person.
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  Speaker 1: And sorry, just got to pause. Anybody with a non
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  Speaker 1: Polynesian cultural background right now is probably going you what, yeah, right,
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  Speaker 1: because that's not what we typically do in Western culture.
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  Speaker 1: When I met you and you told me about these things,
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  Speaker 1: I was like, for real, like with the body.
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  Speaker 3: So you're not allowed to leave the body alone, so
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  Speaker 3: somebody has to be with the body the entire time,
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  Speaker 3: and we all sleep in the same room with the body.
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  Speaker 3: So yes, very strange for somebody who has an experience.
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  Speaker 3: But as a young kid, I was surrounded by that
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  Speaker 3: and death was a celebration, So yes, there was lots
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  Speaker 3: of crying, There was lots of laughter, There was lots
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  Speaker 3: of music, There was lots of opportunity to share beautiful
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  Speaker 3: experiences and memories of the person that we were celebrating.
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  Speaker 3: When we moved to Australia and we left behind all
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  Speaker 3: of that cultural significance, I actually found it really hard
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  Speaker 3: to find closure as I said goodbye to people because
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  Speaker 3: the casket was closed, I never got to see them
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  Speaker 3: and that was really really hard for me and I
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  Speaker 3: just having had both experiences, really think that finding a
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  Speaker 3: way to help our children have closure. I'm not suggesting
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  Speaker 3: they need to see a dead body to have that,
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  Speaker 3: but maybe it's writing a letter to them to let
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  Speaker 3: them know how much they love them and share the
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  Speaker 3: memories that they have that make them feel so much
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  Speaker 3: joy for the fact that they were in their lives.
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  Speaker 3: I don't know. Maybe it's going out into the garden
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  Speaker 3: and putting a beautiful rock or something into the garden
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  Speaker 3: that's a memory of that, or planting a plant. But
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  Speaker 3: I think that if we can find a way to
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  Speaker 3: not only celebrate the life gone, but find an opportunity
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  Speaker 3: to have closure to that whole experience, our children will
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  Speaker 3: actually process it so much easier.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that when it comes to the Polynesian
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  Speaker 1: culture and the death traditions and rituals. I think Polynesian
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  Speaker 1: culture has it way more right than we have it
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  Speaker 1: as a Western society. I didn't understand it. I didn't
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  Speaker 1: like it when you first told me about it, But
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  Speaker 1: over the years I would like that to be more
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  Speaker 1: of what we do in our family. I just think
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  Speaker 1: it's beautiful anyway. Tests Hopefully this's been helpful. What your
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: son needs most isn't for his fear to disappear. It's
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: for someone to understand that his fear makes perfect sense
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  Speaker 1: given what his experience, and when he feels truly seen
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  Speaker 1: and understood in those difficult emotions, he's going to develop
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: the capacity to carry those emotions without being overwhelmed by them.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: Next week, a tricky question that keeps us firmly alive
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: and planted in the here and now, dealing with your
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: own anxiety and safety concerns your children doing things that
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: are risky. I keep saying that you kids should do
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: at least one thing every week that could land them
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: in hospital. We're going to talk about handling that issue
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: as a parent who gets anxious with our tricky questions
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: next week on the Happy Families podcast. If you have
• 14:12
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• 14:17
  Speaker 1: a voice note to podcasts at happy families dot com
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• 14:21
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• 14:24
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