Latest / Sharp Strategies Sweet Success / #74 - The Episode With Charley

Transcript

#74 - The Episode With Charley · Sharp Strategies Sweet Success

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Law firms should stop trying to produce Marvel movies.
0:02
SPEAKER_00: They should produce horror movies.
0:05
Horror movies are a specific genre speaking to a specific
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audience with a cost
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SPEAKER_00: efficient production model.
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SPEAKER_00: And they don't rely on massive levels of advertising.
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SPEAKER_01: Sharp Strategies, Sweet Success.
0:32
SPEAKER_01: Hello, everyone, and welcome.
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SPEAKER_01: You're listening to Sharp Strategies, Sweet Success.
0:37
SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Tiffany Swadenski.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: And today we are talking to Charlie Mann.
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Charlie Mann,
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I've known for 11 years now because I did the math and it's
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been 11 years.
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SPEAKER_00: Only?
0:48
SPEAKER_00: I would have said like 13, 14, but yeah.
0:51
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
0:52
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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SPEAKER_01: That's a little hard to hear because Charlie feels like it's been longer.
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SPEAKER_01: And it's like, I don't know how to feel about that.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, we worked together for a long time.
1:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:01
SPEAKER_01: Something like seven years.
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SPEAKER_01: And Charlie introduced me to a lot of the legal marketing basics,
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SPEAKER_01: not even the basics,
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SPEAKER_01: but a lot of the strategies and tactics of legal marketing.
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SPEAKER_01: And we worked together and learned together at GLM.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: We were,
1:17
he spoke a lot at the events and sometimes I went up there and
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spoke with him,
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which is nice because I hate speaking so he can carry the
1:23
conversation while I just
1:24
SPEAKER_01: sit there and look awkward at shit.
1:26
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, we're friends, co-workers.
1:29
Actually,
1:30
he's the one who hired me at GLM and really happy to have him
1:33
here on the show.
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SPEAKER_00: And I now have it officially on the record that you consider us friends.
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SPEAKER_00: So that's nice.
1:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:40
SPEAKER_01: Oh, shit.
1:41
SPEAKER_01: Should have been linked for enemies or something.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: That's all right.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: I mean, wow.
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SPEAKER_00: We've known each other for quite a long time.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, I remember some of those like earliest conversations.
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I remember being in that big conference room that we all used
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to work out of like
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SPEAKER_00: unfair to call it a conference room,
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SPEAKER_00: just like an open air space,
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SPEAKER_00: essentially.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: and projects and like speaking on stage together for Dominate Digital.
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I was just talking with someone about that recently because we
2:07
were talking about
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SPEAKER_00: Dungeons and Dragons style artwork for products and stuff.
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And I was like,
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well,
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I've actually done one of those before with an old buddy of
2:14
mine.
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SPEAKER_00: So yeah, a lot of good memories there.
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Yeah,
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Dominique Digital was a,
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that was a fun,
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actually,
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I have the binder somewhere.
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It might be on the bookshelf behind me,
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but yeah,
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that cover art was great.
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SPEAKER_01: It was a fun theme, nice alliteration.
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SPEAKER_01: And honestly, we had like a...
2:32
SPEAKER_01: Do we have like a live training session with that?
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SPEAKER_01: Or we did like something virtual.
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SPEAKER_01: Cause I think it was like COVID-ish that had that.
2:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:39
SPEAKER_00: So we launched it.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm pretty sure Tiff in 2019.
2:41
SPEAKER_00: I want to say we launched it in 2019.
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SPEAKER_00: And as we went into COVID,
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SPEAKER_00: I remember we did,
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SPEAKER_00: and we do this like huge setup for it as part of reselling the program,
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SPEAKER_00: the bonus add-on,
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we were going to do this live event and you and I spent the
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better part of like a
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SPEAKER_00: full day
2:59
doing a an add-on event as part of it and it was just this back
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and forth like hey
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let's take a look at websites all this other stuff yeah it was
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you know we adapted
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we adapted for those times we were six feet apart i promise our
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desks were six feet
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SPEAKER_00: apart when we did the event even though we were both in the same room
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SPEAKER_01: Whatever.
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SPEAKER_01: I was deliberately sneezing on them.
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SPEAKER_01: I was trying to get them covered.
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SPEAKER_01: But I think sometimes people from the outside looking in,
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SPEAKER_01: they'll look at us doing like a,
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SPEAKER_01: like a,
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SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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SPEAKER_01: we did one day events.
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SPEAKER_01: We did like two day events and never ran out of things to talk about.
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And I've talked to people since leaving GLM and starting Sharp
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Cookie and they're,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm telling them like,
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SPEAKER_01: oh,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm going to do a two day event or I'm going to go do a talk.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm talking for an hour.
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And like,
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sometimes their first question is like,
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do you have enough stuff to talk about?
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And it kind of kicked me out of guard because it's just like,
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yeah,
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I have enough.
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SPEAKER_01: I just talk.
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SPEAKER_01: I'll talk all the time.
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SPEAKER_01: I'll talk you to death.
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SPEAKER_00: I don't care.
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SPEAKER_00: Which,
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SPEAKER_00: by the way,
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SPEAKER_00: most people who go and do talks like I mean,
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SPEAKER_00: you and I go to events and we'll see people doing presentations.
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SPEAKER_00: The most common thing is.
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SPEAKER_00: people show up,
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they'll do an hour presentation and they have like 82 slides
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for the presentation
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SPEAKER_00: and they get to minute 40,
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which according to like standard PowerPoint math means you
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should be 40 slides in.
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SPEAKER_00: So we're already dangerously behind,
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SPEAKER_00: but they get to minute 40 and they're like,
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SPEAKER_00: oh shoot,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm on slide 16.
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SPEAKER_00: Let me see if I can get through the remaining, what would that math be?
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SPEAKER_00: 66 slides in the last 20 minutes.
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SPEAKER_00: Most of us all have more to say about what we do,
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but you go until the time constraint happens and they put the
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shepherd's hook and
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SPEAKER_00: yank you off the stage and you go,
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SPEAKER_00: wait,
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SPEAKER_00: I still have five more days of material.
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SPEAKER_01: Shepherd's hook.
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SPEAKER_01: That was first time me realizing that's what it's called.
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SPEAKER_01: Little hooky thing as a shepherd's hook.
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SPEAKER_01: Okay.
4:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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So like,
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and you and I have been to a lot of events,
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host a lot of events and all that stuff.
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SPEAKER_01: And I have seen a lot of other people talk like,
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SPEAKER_01: and you mentioned the slide bloat thing,
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but what are some other things that you think mistakes that
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people make when they
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SPEAKER_01: go up on stage?
5:03
Well,
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in some ways it's like part of the,
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well,
5:05
okay,
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actually I'll give number one.
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Number one overall mistake is people look at presentations
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primarily as information delivery.
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And in reality it's entertainment,
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it's performance,
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it's putting on a show for the audience.
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And when you change that dynamic and you give yourself
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permission to be like,
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SPEAKER_00: Hey,
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SPEAKER_00: I don't actually have to share.
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50 different things during this presentation i can share five
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to ten and spend some
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time on them i can tell some stories i can do a little bit of
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crowd work if that's
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SPEAKER_00: something that you're comfortable with i mean not everyone's going to be
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comfortable with like the same stuff that i'm comfortable with
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necessarily but i
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can spend some time relaxing into this and also recognizing as
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part of that bloat
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SPEAKER_00: issue is
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SPEAKER_00: When you're on stage,
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SPEAKER_00: most people have not rehearsed their presentation down to the minute,
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SPEAKER_00: down to the second.
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You've gone through your slides and you've generally said them
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maybe in your hotel
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SPEAKER_00: room once or twice before going on stage.
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SPEAKER_00: You're going to come up with more things while you're up there.
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SPEAKER_00: Your brain is going to take you on different tangents.
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SPEAKER_00: And this is scary for most folks.
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SPEAKER_00: If you have a 30 minute presentation,
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I would at most budget for 25 minutes of material that you've
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prepared for because
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more is going to come to you and you don't wanna get caught at
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that point of being
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SPEAKER_00: the,
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SPEAKER_00: let me get through my final slides part of it.
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SPEAKER_00: And again, yeah, it's entertainment.
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SPEAKER_00: Have some fun with it.
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SPEAKER_00: It's okay to slow down, to joke on yourself while you're up there.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's what I do.
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I just,
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I truly view it as a,
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you're there to inform,
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but you also got to entertain.
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Something I saw this last time I was at an event speaking was
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somebody had like
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SPEAKER_01: interactive slides and interactive slide decks.
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SPEAKER_01: And like,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: cause they,
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they had like an app or a web interface that people scan the QR
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code and opened it
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up and they would like take a quiz during the presentation or
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give their feedback.
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SPEAKER_01: And that's the kind of thing I look at and I'm like,
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SPEAKER_01: that's really like newfangled,
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SPEAKER_01: I guess,
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SPEAKER_01: and kind of cool.
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SPEAKER_01: It's a cool concept.
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SPEAKER_01: Somebody told me about it.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm like, yeah, that's pretty neat.
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SPEAKER_01: But in practice,
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SPEAKER_01: like what I saw is like somebody went up on stage and it's like,
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SPEAKER_01: okay,
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SPEAKER_01: like who here can tell me like their cost per case?
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SPEAKER_01: And what completely threw me off about that is like,
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SPEAKER_01: there are a lot of answers,
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but none of them were within the realm of what I consider a
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good cost per case to
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SPEAKER_01: be.
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SPEAKER_01: And so I felt like inaccurate information.
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SPEAKER_01: I was like, some attorneys were like saying they paid $9,000 per case.
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SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, shit.
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SPEAKER_00: Whoa, those better be like the most catastrophic injuries.
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SPEAKER_01: That better be like the best cases I've ever heard of.
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SPEAKER_01: And I was like, what?
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SPEAKER_01: But,
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SPEAKER_01: but also there's those moments where she was just up there and it's like,
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SPEAKER_01: okay,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm just waiting for everyone's answers to come in.
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SPEAKER_01: Cause it's kind of a big room and everyone's slow.
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And it's just like,
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you know,
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I hate that dead ear,
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you know,
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I really do.
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So I don't know if I'll do something like that,
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but it's cool,
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but I don't know.
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SPEAKER_00: That's really tough.
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That's the type of thing where you really have to know what
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your audience is like,
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SPEAKER_00: and you have to kind of have a sense of going into the event.
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of what's happening before me,
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so you know what the energy level is gonna be.
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SPEAKER_00: Like if the person before you is,
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let's say a very info-focused speaker who maybe doesn't do a
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lot of speaking
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SPEAKER_00: engagements,
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Your responsibility when you go on stage at that point is to
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bring the energy back up.
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SPEAKER_00: There's a great quote from,
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SPEAKER_00: I first heard from Jalen Hurts,
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SPEAKER_00: who's the quarterback of the Philadelphia Eagles.
8:36
SPEAKER_00: Don't worry, this isn't gonna be a football thing.
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SPEAKER_00: But he says, be the thermostat, not the thermometer, right?
8:42
SPEAKER_00: The thermometer takes the temperature of the room,
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SPEAKER_00: the thermostat sets the temperature of the room.
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So when you go on and you speak,
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or even if you're just going to networking,
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SPEAKER_00: Be the thermostat, get people to meet you where your energy level is.
8:55
SPEAKER_00: Like bring up the space that you're in.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, right now we're in the throes of winter.
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SPEAKER_00: Like seeing what I can see at my house right now,
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SPEAKER_00: Tiff,
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SPEAKER_00: I can't imagine what it's like where you are.
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SPEAKER_00: You just gotta be like iced in basically at this point.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, the silver lining is like, this surely has killed all the ticks.
9:14
SPEAKER_01: Surely this has killed all the text.
9:17
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's like six inches of snow with an inch of ice over it out.
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SPEAKER_01: And it's hard.
9:22
SPEAKER_01: It's crazy.
9:23
SPEAKER_01: And watching my dogs poop outside is low-key hilarious.
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SPEAKER_00: Oh, those poor animals.
9:28
SPEAKER_00: My Josie, she has a torn ACL that just there's no chance of repairing it.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: She's too old for the surgery, the recovery, all that type of stuff.
9:35
SPEAKER_00: So it's a nightmare for her.
9:37
SPEAKER_00: I feel so bad.
9:38
But wouldn't we all just love a little thermostat that would
9:40
bring that temperature
9:41
SPEAKER_00: right on up and melt that ice away?
9:43
SPEAKER_00: I personally would.
9:44
But for speakers,
9:45
you got to go in and you got to bring people to where you're
9:49
at.
9:49
And like when you have that dead air that you're talking about,
9:53
sometimes dead air is OK.
9:54
When you go up there,
9:54
if you have an assignment,
9:55
this is like the inverse of that.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: The other,
9:58
a lot of speakers will go up there and they'll have dead air
10:01
that you don't need to
10:02
SPEAKER_00: have dead air.
10:03
Other speakers will go up there and a lot of times you go to an
10:05
event and people
10:06
SPEAKER_00: are like,
10:06
SPEAKER_00: we're gonna do a little bit of workshop during my talk.
10:09
SPEAKER_00: And they get to the quote unquote workshop portion.
10:10
SPEAKER_00: They're like,
10:11
I want you to write down the three things you're trying to
10:13
accomplish this next
10:14
SPEAKER_00: year.
10:15
SPEAKER_00: And they wait nine seconds and go,
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SPEAKER_00: okay,
10:18
SPEAKER_00: so what we're gonna do next is like,
10:19
SPEAKER_00: no one's written down their three things at this point.
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SPEAKER_00: If you want them to do the work, you actually need to be quiet
10:26
SPEAKER_00: And let the audience do their work and just watch them.
10:31
SPEAKER_00: Because if you see,
10:32
it's even an opportunity where if you're looking at the
10:34
audience during a workshop
10:35
SPEAKER_00: moment,
10:36
SPEAKER_00: people who keep their eyes up for too long,
10:39
you just make eye contact with them for an uncomfortable amount
10:41
of time and they'll
10:41
SPEAKER_00: put their eyes down and they'll go to work.
10:44
Or you'll have just those quick acknowledgements to like
10:46
someone looks up and you
10:47
SPEAKER_00: kind of just get to give them that like nod,
10:49
SPEAKER_00: like,
10:49
SPEAKER_00: oh,
10:49
SPEAKER_00: you're doing the work,
10:50
SPEAKER_00: good for you.
10:51
SPEAKER_00: You have to honor what your intention is on the stage.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: If you wanna do the work, give them the space to do the work.
10:58
SPEAKER_00: On the other hand,
10:59
SPEAKER_00: if there's just dead air,
11:00
SPEAKER_00: you need to figure out,
11:01
SPEAKER_00: fill it with a story,
11:02
SPEAKER_00: right?
11:03
SPEAKER_00: So that speaker that you were talking about,
11:04
SPEAKER_00: Tiff,
11:05
SPEAKER_00: in those moments,
11:06
SPEAKER_00: just to say like,
11:07
SPEAKER_00: hey,
11:07
SPEAKER_00: while you're voting,
11:08
SPEAKER_00: I wanna tell you about blank.
11:11
SPEAKER_00: That helps fill that dead air.
11:14
SPEAKER_01: So like what events have you gone to me?
11:17
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
11:17
SPEAKER_01: marketing wise,
11:18
like in the last year or so that you really like that you're
11:21
going back to again.
11:23
SPEAKER_00: So I'm not doing a lot of returns this year in particular,
11:27
SPEAKER_00: but last year I was at Jay Berkowitz's event,
11:29
SPEAKER_00: TGR live,
11:30
SPEAKER_00: which is coming up in March.
11:32
SPEAKER_00: That was really cool.
11:33
SPEAKER_00: A good mix of like vendors.
11:36
SPEAKER_00: And it was a nice location down in Delray, Florida, I want to say.
11:40
SPEAKER_00: and a good variety from the stage overall, which I appreciate.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: Hey, it wasn't just the same speakers that you see every single place.
11:48
SPEAKER_00: I was at Max Law Con last year,
11:50
and I think Tyson puts on a really good show where he's both
11:55
bringing some outside
11:56
SPEAKER_00: experts,
11:56
but also elevating people from his group to have them share
11:59
their successes from
12:00
SPEAKER_00: the stage.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: I think that's really important to have a balance of
12:04
SPEAKER_00: Hey,
12:04
SPEAKER_00: we have outside experts,
12:05
but also these are like the people who have kind of come up
12:07
through the ranks in a
12:08
SPEAKER_00: space if it's a coaching organization.
12:10
SPEAKER_00: But even like Jay Berkowitz,
12:11
he brings star students of his agency up onto the stage as well
12:16
to talk about what
12:17
SPEAKER_00: they're doing that might be supporting the agency success.
12:20
SPEAKER_00: I think that's great.
12:21
SPEAKER_00: So those were two great ones.
12:23
SPEAKER_00: Lunch Hour Legal Marketing Summit.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: Can't wait for that one to come back.
12:27
SPEAKER_00: That was also an awesome mix.
12:28
SPEAKER_00: I'm just talking with Guy and Conrad after that.
12:31
SPEAKER_00: I was like, man, you know what I would love even more of?
12:33
SPEAKER_00: I would love more of the two of you.
12:35
SPEAKER_00: Like I just, there's, I like seeing different
12:39
SPEAKER_00: structures of events.
12:40
And for me,
12:41
there are a lot of events that have like a variety show,
12:44
right?
12:45
SPEAKER_00: I love an event that also has maybe a more focused approach,
12:50
SPEAKER_00: whether that's very specific on topics.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: We don't see a lot of those events these days, Tiff.
12:54
Like you remember,
12:55
we would do these occasional one or two day intensives.
12:58
SPEAKER_00: It was like, we're going to zoom in on one single subject here.
13:01
SPEAKER_00: Even dominate digital is an example.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: We're just digital marketing here.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: Don't you dare talk to me about your community marketing.
13:08
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to hear it.
13:08
SPEAKER_00: We're here to dominate digital deck on it.
13:11
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of events these days are like,
13:13
SPEAKER_00: let's get as much stuff as we possibly can on the stage,
13:17
SPEAKER_00: as opposed to what if we just spent a whole day focused on.
13:21
SPEAKER_00: So like Jay Ruane, a buddy of mine, you probably know Jay.
13:24
SPEAKER_00: He's got a new book out called analog marketing.
13:26
He's got a program called the criminal mastermind works with
13:28
criminal defense attorneys.
13:29
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
13:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:31
SPEAKER_00: Like, cool.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: A book that's just on analog marketing.
13:33
SPEAKER_00: We could do four days of analog marketing only at an event.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: So like with Guy and Conrad's thing,
13:40
SPEAKER_00: for me,
13:40
SPEAKER_00: I'm used to seeing a lot of different speakers on the stage.
13:43
SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, I don't know.
13:44
SPEAKER_00: Let's just put Guy and Conrad up there for four hours straight.
13:47
SPEAKER_00: I want to see what comes of that personally.
13:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm actually speaking at Jay's mastermind in May.
13:54
SPEAKER_01: And I think that I thought that was really cool.
13:56
SPEAKER_01: But he read one of my articles I published recently.
13:58
SPEAKER_01: I was like, Oh, you need to come out here and talk about this.
14:01
Interestingly enough,
14:02
the article I wrote was me dissecting Morgan and Morgan's
14:05
website.
14:06
And I have the follow up article pretty well written,
14:10
but it's been slow going.
14:11
SPEAKER_01: It's been a little bit busy lately.
14:12
SPEAKER_01: I need to finish working on that today.
14:14
SPEAKER_01: But I haven't met him in person, but I guess I will in a couple months.
14:18
SPEAKER_01: So that'll be pretty neat.
14:19
SPEAKER_00: Very good.
14:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:22
SPEAKER_01: And also it's fun.
14:22
SPEAKER_01: It's fun with criminal defense attorneys.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I love personal injury attorneys.
14:27
SPEAKER_01: I love my personal injury attorneys.
14:29
SPEAKER_01: Like every single one of my clients is personal injury now.
14:31
SPEAKER_01: Some of them are like personal injury,
14:32
SPEAKER_01: like,
14:33
SPEAKER_01: and like estate planning or personal injury and something else.
14:36
SPEAKER_00: Right.
14:37
SPEAKER_01: But like criminal law,
14:38
SPEAKER_01: unfortunately,
14:39
SPEAKER_01: I haven't had a chance to play around in there much,
14:41
SPEAKER_01: but it's so much fun when it comes to the content.
14:44
SPEAKER_01: Actually, that's a good segue.
14:45
Like you,
14:46
you are really good at just consistently making content for
14:51
your emails,
14:52
for LinkedIn.
14:54
SPEAKER_01: You probably do videos.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: I just, I'll just admit, I haven't checked you out on YouTube.
14:58
SPEAKER_00: I don't, I actually don't really do video that much.
15:01
SPEAKER_01: But you do the podcast, don't you put that on YouTube?
15:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:04
SPEAKER_00: If it's with a guest, yes.
15:06
SPEAKER_00: But like solo episodes, I don't record a video of myself.
15:08
SPEAKER_00: My team does not like that fact.
15:11
SPEAKER_00: They would like me to put myself on camera.
15:13
But truth is a lot of times I'm recording those solo episodes
15:16
at like 6.45 AM or something.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm not turning the camera on.
15:22
SPEAKER_00: I just, I don't want to put all the lights on me.
15:25
But that being said,
15:26
I mean,
15:26
the podcast still comes out every single week.
15:28
SPEAKER_00: That's part of content marketing.
15:30
That's why I keep my eyebrows and my lashes done because if I
15:33
have that going on,
15:34
SPEAKER_01: I really don't have to do a whole lot of work elsewhere.
15:36
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm just, I'm like camera ready.
15:38
SPEAKER_01: I'm like ever camera ready.
15:40
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's an investment.
15:42
SPEAKER_01: That's what I keep telling myself, but damn it.
15:43
SPEAKER_01: I wish it was tax deductible.
15:45
SPEAKER_01: That's just.
15:46
that's shit find the right accountant and they might let you
15:48
get away with it they
15:49
might i don't know i like to i like to be honest there but it
15:52
is a crime it is a
15:53
crime i'm just gonna say that i need to write a letter to
15:56
somebody anyway go ahead
15:58
we're talking about content yeah yeah like the production of
16:00
like linkedin
16:01
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're doing the same thing, right?
16:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're using content marketing as well.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure your clients are using content marketing too,
16:07
SPEAKER_00: and remains a rock solid backbone,
16:11
SPEAKER_00: I think for most of us,
16:12
SPEAKER_00: because it can be spun off in so many different ways.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: Content can either be spun off within itself,
16:16
SPEAKER_00: like written content becomes video content or vice versa,
16:18
SPEAKER_00: or
16:19
SPEAKER_00: Like I turned my podcast into a book, right?
16:22
It is one of the reasons to produce content marketing is it's
16:27
an asset that goes
16:28
SPEAKER_00: beyond its initial point of production.
16:30
SPEAKER_00: At least if you're doing it like well, right?
16:32
SPEAKER_00: Like if you have someone like you Tiff at the helm,
16:34
SPEAKER_00: you know,
16:35
SPEAKER_00: operating in that fractional CMO capacity,
16:37
SPEAKER_00: you're probably saying like,
16:38
SPEAKER_00: Hey,
16:38
SPEAKER_00: how do we move these things back and forth?
16:40
SPEAKER_00: We don't need to have everything siloed within itself.
16:43
We need to make sure everyone's talking to each other and
16:46
sharing resources.
16:47
not competing for resources so even linkedin posts can become
16:52
emails emails can
16:53
become linkedin posts i do think i'm curious your thoughts on
16:55
this for me one of
16:56
the important things with content marketing is you can't do the
17:01
lazy version of
17:02
repurposing which is where you're only ever doing kind of that
17:04
one for one i'm
17:05
going to just copy and paste like you still need to understand
17:08
your platform right
17:09
SPEAKER_00: and even if it's a modest adaptation some adaptation is of value yeah
17:16
SPEAKER_01: So I think people like there,
17:18
SPEAKER_01: there's a certain way to create content to make it extremely reusable.
17:25
Like you can bulk create like a video,
17:29
like a bunch of videos and turn it into this and that.
17:32
Like for me,
17:32
like every,
17:33
everyone wants to reuse their content and I'm all for it.
17:36
SPEAKER_01: But you know,
17:37
SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of times the issue I buck up against,
17:39
SPEAKER_01: I find the content and I'm like,
17:41
SPEAKER_01: this is not reusable.
17:43
um you know for one reason or another the editing was bad the
17:46
audio was bad it was
17:47
low quality it was one thing instead of like you know 10 things
17:52
or whatever it was
17:53
short and so like or it's just flat out dated in a way that's
17:57
not like gonna be
17:58
SPEAKER_01: cute or quaint you know when we post it right
18:02
SPEAKER_01: And and so like,
18:03
SPEAKER_01: you know,
18:03
I think you have to be intentional about how you're going to
18:07
make whatever I'm
18:08
SPEAKER_01: being vague because it depends on what the medium is.
18:10
SPEAKER_01: Right.
18:10
SPEAKER_01: But whatever you're making.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's just kind of true for market.
18:14
I know this frustrates people when those of us who talk about
18:18
marketing have an it
18:19
SPEAKER_00: depends answer.
18:21
SPEAKER_00: But.
18:22
that it just it does like there are different revenue sizes
18:26
different practice
18:27
areas different existing infrastructure different location are
18:31
you in a top 50
18:32
metropolitan region or are you in a more rural community
18:35
there's different things
18:37
for different firms yes there's a lot of overlap maybe you'd
18:41
bounce around and
18:42
you'd find 60 to 70 percent overlap across most firms but that
18:46
last bit of it is
18:48
SPEAKER_00: the difference between
18:49
wasting time and money and being smart with your resources and
18:53
it does take testing
18:54
it takes takes discussion and it takes learning to figure out
19:00
what you're going to
19:00
try that is actually applicable i mean i think about for
19:02
example youtube if i'm
19:03
being completely honest youtube for personal injury not my
19:08
favorite strategy
19:10
SPEAKER_00: youtube for criminal defense
19:13
SPEAKER_00: estate planning.
19:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I can get behind that.
19:16
I have practical examples of people breaking through and
19:18
getting cases there.
19:20
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, Jeff Hampton has it for like short term rental stuff.
19:23
SPEAKER_00: And Jeff does a phenomenal job with his two firms.
19:26
SPEAKER_00: But PI, it's really hard to break through there.
19:31
SPEAKER_00: If you're going to do
19:32
SPEAKER_00: that video effort,
19:33
SPEAKER_00: you might have to change strategically what you're trying to do,
19:37
SPEAKER_00: or maybe it needs to be more of a,
19:39
SPEAKER_00: hey,
19:39
SPEAKER_00: what's working on social platform,
19:41
SPEAKER_00: short form video for PI.
19:43
SPEAKER_00: I mean, our mutual friend, Mark Breyer on Arizona,
19:48
SPEAKER_00: He did a lot of commentary on the Amber Heard Johnny Depp trial.
19:52
SPEAKER_00: And Cardi V's trial, which I thought was funny.
19:54
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
19:55
And so he sort of figured out how to tap into that short form
19:58
video space to talk
19:59
SPEAKER_00: about being a trial attorney,
20:00
SPEAKER_00: which he also mixes up with rapping and dancing.
20:03
But he has also done like a lot of the stuff that we've seen PI
20:06
attorneys do of
20:07
SPEAKER_00: the,
20:07
SPEAKER_00: hey,
20:07
SPEAKER_00: you're watching a crash video and here's commentary on it,
20:10
SPEAKER_00: which some PI attorneys are like,
20:11
SPEAKER_00: that is the lowest form of marketing you could ever do.
20:15
SPEAKER_00: And other PI attorneys are like, how
20:16
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, there's something here to learn.
20:17
SPEAKER_00: So it's not that bad.
20:19
SPEAKER_00: That line of what's exploitative versus informational.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: There's something to learn from all the practice areas.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: Like content wise,
20:27
there's always FAQs that people don't know are interesting
20:30
tidbits about personal
20:31
SPEAKER_01: injury or estate.
20:33
But the thing that sucks for personal injury attorneys is like
20:36
criminal defense
20:37
attorneys can get away with making an FAQ video about criminal
20:40
law because criminal
20:41
SPEAKER_00: law- Tiff,
20:42
SPEAKER_00: you missed it.
20:43
SPEAKER_00: They can get away with murder.
20:44
SPEAKER_00: Criminal defense attorneys can get away with murder.
20:46
Yeah.
20:48
i missed a joke damn it um maybe they just record faqs and it's
20:52
interesting by
20:53
default but like that's not the way of the world with personal
20:56
injury or even as
20:57
well estates more interesting than personal injury for ranking
21:00
them and it's hard
21:01
because with personal injury i think there's a there are a lot
21:04
of components of
21:05
personal injury that i think are really interesting the whole
21:08
negotiation process
21:09
is actually really really interesting the various like what's
21:13
the value of a
21:14
SPEAKER_00: person's massive or minor injury i think there's a lot of
21:18
a lot of stuff that you can share that would be of interest
21:21
that is scintillating to people.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: The problem is that on a big picture level,
21:26
the I'm suing someone and getting money from their insurance
21:29
company doesn't have
21:31
SPEAKER_00: the same excitement
21:34
as the big scale money issues of a family fighting in probate
21:39
or the drama of a
21:42
SPEAKER_00: criminal defense case.
21:44
SPEAKER_00: So with PI,
21:45
SPEAKER_00: you gotta figure out,
21:46
SPEAKER_00: and that might even go to the idea of like,
21:47
SPEAKER_00: which one is better for short form versus long form.
21:50
If people tend to love the drama of the practice area overall,
21:54
maybe it's easier for long form.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: If they like the small little bits of it that are,
21:59
SPEAKER_00: don't necessarily look like the sum of its parts,
22:02
SPEAKER_00: maybe you need to do short form pieces.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:06
But I mean,
22:06
honestly,
22:08
like these days,
22:08
there are so many ways to reach your audience.
22:12
And it's so darn hard to get like the attorneys to make video
22:16
or it's so darn hard
22:17
to get the attorneys to make marketing that they're not
22:19
inclined to make already.
22:21
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm telling them,
22:23
SPEAKER_01: like,
22:23
SPEAKER_01: if you want to,
22:24
SPEAKER_01: if you like recording video,
22:25
SPEAKER_01: let's record more video.
22:27
SPEAKER_01: If you like writing, let's do more writing.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, all of the media formats are valid.
22:33
SPEAKER_01: Video is just that,
22:34
SPEAKER_01: that,
22:34
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
22:35
SPEAKER_01: video is more visible,
22:36
SPEAKER_01: like more people scroll through Instagram than read articles,
22:40
SPEAKER_01: but that doesn't mean articles aren't valuable,
22:42
SPEAKER_01: right?
22:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
22:44
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
22:44
you and I can remember a time when we worked with a lot of law
22:49
firm owners who were
22:50
SPEAKER_00: really into DIYing their marketing.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: Like there was a burst of energy behind the,
22:55
SPEAKER_00: oh my God,
22:55
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna write my articles for my website.
22:58
I'm gonna put together my white paper and my book or my
23:00
checklist or whatever that
23:01
SPEAKER_00: offer is gonna be.
23:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna do some videos and all that.
23:05
And a lot of them were DIYing when they didn't have quite as
23:09
much just like stuff.
23:11
that they had to do admittedly the marketing world at this
23:15
point is jam freaking
23:17
packed right it's there's also a lot more fog of war to deal
23:22
with and if there's so
23:24
many things that you could do it becomes harder i think for
23:27
them to feel like
23:28
they're appropriately covering the number of bases it's like
23:30
they've started
23:31
playing baseball and back in the day it was a three bases and
23:34
home plate game and i
23:35
think a lot of people now step up to the plate look out at the
23:38
field and go
23:39
I feel like there's 19 bases and I can't tell which 16 of them
23:44
are distractions for
23:45
SPEAKER_00: me,
23:45
SPEAKER_00: which is making it hard for me to even begin to play the game.
23:49
SPEAKER_00: Because we saw people DIY their way from,
23:52
SPEAKER_00: oh,
23:53
I'm doing $250,000 a year in revenue to I've DIY my marketing
23:56
up to $1.5 million
23:57
SPEAKER_00: per year in revenue.
23:59
SPEAKER_00: And these days that is, it's not impossible.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: It's just harder to do because also
24:05
SPEAKER_00: The entrepreneurship level of firm owners overall has gone up,
24:10
SPEAKER_00: which includes efficiencies in operations,
24:13
SPEAKER_00: better measurement of financial outcomes,
24:16
SPEAKER_00: the reinvestment cycle back into the practice.
24:19
Those have changed fundamentally in the last decade as
24:23
information becomes more
24:24
SPEAKER_00: accessible,
24:25
as people like you and I become more accessible to firm owners
24:29
and they can level
24:30
SPEAKER_00: up faster in their practices.
24:32
Now it's just changed the ante for how you play the game,
24:35
like to even get started.
24:36
SPEAKER_00: And more and more often encounter firm owners who are like,
24:40
SPEAKER_00: at least I'm encountering firm owners,
24:42
SPEAKER_00: I'll speak for myself,
24:43
who don't seem to have as much time for the whole marketing DIY
24:50
picture because
24:50
SPEAKER_00: they're also so concerned about,
24:52
SPEAKER_00: well,
24:52
SPEAKER_00: I'm also supposed to be doing my systems and,
24:54
SPEAKER_00: oh my God,
24:54
SPEAKER_00: I need to get my P&L dialed in.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, you're at $300,000 per year in revenue.
24:59
Get more clients,
25:00
focus on that because that will solve a lot of problems for
25:04
you.
25:05
SPEAKER_00: And then as you get bigger, we will figure out the systems.
25:08
SPEAKER_00: We will dial in the finances.
25:10
SPEAKER_00: But at least that's my perspective.
25:12
I'm curious from,
25:13
I mean,
25:13
you've been doing this for nearly as long,
25:14
yeah.
25:16
SPEAKER_01: So,
25:17
SPEAKER_01: well,
25:17
SPEAKER_01: I have a few things I could say about DIY marketing,
25:20
SPEAKER_01: but I guess to start like law firm owner and like us now,
25:24
SPEAKER_01: cause like now we're business owners.
25:26
Marketing isn't always the most important thing you can be
25:29
doing for your business.
25:31
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it's related to marketing.
25:34
SPEAKER_01: But 100% of your meeting shouldn't be about marketing.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
25:38
SPEAKER_01: for me,
25:39
I really like it when marketing can kind of take a backseat and
25:42
just do good work
25:43
SPEAKER_01: cases come in and nobody's microanalyzing it,
25:46
SPEAKER_01: right?
25:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's kind of ideal for me.
25:48
SPEAKER_01: But it's fun to kind of microanalyze it.
25:50
SPEAKER_01: But when it comes to DIY, it's a question of...
25:54
SPEAKER_01: How competitive this marketplace is.
25:57
SPEAKER_01: PI is extraordinarily competitive.
25:59
SPEAKER_01: It's one of the most competitive industries in the U.S.
26:03
SPEAKER_01: when it comes to marketing, CPA, all that stuff.
26:06
And is your DIY marketing going to be good enough to outperform
26:13
the company that
26:14
SPEAKER_01: can afford a marketing agency,
26:16
SPEAKER_01: a creative team,
26:17
SPEAKER_01: a CMO,
26:18
SPEAKER_01: a company?
26:20
SPEAKER_01: CTO, CO, whatever, the whole C-speed.
26:23
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, can you compete?
26:25
SPEAKER_01: Can your DIY marketing compete?
26:27
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes you can,
26:28
like I've seen or heard of attorneys who they're just like
26:31
really popular on
26:32
Facebook and they have a huge network of people who know them
26:35
and that's like DIY
26:36
SPEAKER_01: marketing,
26:37
SPEAKER_01: right?
26:37
SPEAKER_01: But you know,
26:38
SPEAKER_01: when you're doing like mass media,
26:40
SPEAKER_01: print ads,
26:42
SPEAKER_01: PPC,
26:43
SPEAKER_01: it becomes a different ballgame.
26:45
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
26:46
SPEAKER_01: even when you're doing referral marketing,
26:47
you're competing with every other attorney who wants to get
26:50
referrals from
26:50
SPEAKER_01: chiropractors and medical clinics and car rental agencies.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: And so,
26:55
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
26:56
SPEAKER_01: that's what I kind of,
26:57
when attorney or when people start talking to me about DIY
26:59
marketing or want me to
27:00
SPEAKER_01: train them to do a particular thing,
27:03
SPEAKER_01: you know,
27:03
SPEAKER_01: I'll let you pay me to train you.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely will.
27:06
SPEAKER_01: But like at the same time, this isn't the best use of your time.
27:10
SPEAKER_01: And I just want you to know that going into it.
27:12
I don't want you to feel like I feel like this is what you
27:15
should be doing.
27:15
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes I got to say that just because,
27:18
SPEAKER_01: you know,
27:18
trying to be realistic about how a business owner should spend
27:21
their time.
27:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:22
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
27:23
SPEAKER_00: for me,
27:23
there are some core things that if you're under a million
27:25
dollars per year in
27:27
SPEAKER_00: revenue,
27:27
SPEAKER_00: I want you to do like,
27:28
SPEAKER_00: you need to lead the charge on getting reviews for your firm.
27:31
SPEAKER_00: Like if you're not trying,
27:32
if you personally aren't trying to get Google reviews for your
27:35
Google business
27:36
SPEAKER_00: profile,
27:38
i'm sorry but your team's not going to do it for you you got to
27:41
carry the torch on
27:42
that one unless you have that one like paralegal who's just a
27:45
super believer in you
27:46
and can crush it on reviews right there's always exceptions
27:48
that's part of the it
27:49
depends but those are the exceptions as they say that prove the
27:52
rules i also want
27:53
SPEAKER_00: you to be trying to leverage relationships you should be doing outbound
27:57
relationship building and usually i'd find like for the first
28:00
million dollars
28:01
SPEAKER_00: awesome leverage point then usually between like
28:05
one maybe 1.5 million up to about four million dollars you're
28:08
not spending as much
28:09
time on like the one-on-one relationship building and then
28:12
after four million
28:12
dollars you're like whoa my time's free now i can work on
28:15
really high level
28:16
relationship building like instead of trying to bring my like
28:20
take a buddy out for
28:21
lunch i'm like oh that law firm owner who owns a firm that i
28:25
know has a pretty
28:25
solid like case flow i can now become friends with them and we
28:29
can talk about
28:30
SPEAKER_00: passing cases back and forth
28:31
SPEAKER_00: Again, it depends, different practice areas, different levels.
28:34
SPEAKER_00: It actually be different for estate planning than PI.
28:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's just, it is harder to do it overall.
28:40
SPEAKER_00: We talk about your cost of acquisition has gone up, which has made the
28:46
SPEAKER_00: working up cases for talking PI that much more valuable as well.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: In the past,
28:51
SPEAKER_00: it was,
28:51
SPEAKER_00: Hey,
28:52
a lot of people are not doing a full scope of marketing and the
28:54
mass advertisers
28:55
SPEAKER_00: don't necessarily do a good job of the ground game.
28:58
And still in many cases,
28:59
like they don't always do a great job of the ground game.
29:01
SPEAKER_00: So you can,
29:01
SPEAKER_00: you still have opportunities down in the trenches,
29:04
but some do actually have a ground game and it freaks people
29:06
out when those folks
29:07
SPEAKER_00: hit the market.
29:08
SPEAKER_00: So you kind of go,
29:09
SPEAKER_00: okay,
29:10
SPEAKER_00: well,
29:10
SPEAKER_00: how do I market away from those spaces that they're trying to occupy?
29:14
SPEAKER_00: I'm not doing the big, massive market.
29:16
SPEAKER_00: I actually just wrote for my Catalyst program,
29:18
SPEAKER_00: the newsletter that's about to go out,
29:20
SPEAKER_00: probably already went out by the time this episode drops,
29:22
SPEAKER_00: is all about,
29:23
SPEAKER_00: it's actually a statement I made on,
29:25
SPEAKER_00: it comes off a statement I made on stage a while ago,
29:27
SPEAKER_00: which is law firms should stop trying to produce Marvel movies.
29:30
SPEAKER_00: They should produce horror movies.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: Horror movies are a specific genre speaking to a specific audience with a
29:38
SPEAKER_00: cost-efficient production model.
29:41
SPEAKER_00: And they don't rely on massive levels of advertising.
29:45
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
29:46
SPEAKER_00: you look at,
29:46
SPEAKER_00: obviously,
29:47
one of the great stories is Paranormal Activity and how that
29:49
movie had this,
29:50
SPEAKER_00: like,
29:50
SPEAKER_00: demand the movie to be in a theater near you campaign,
29:53
SPEAKER_00: which for the director,
29:54
SPEAKER_00: Oren Peli,
29:55
ended up being this huge list building opportunity that made
29:58
Paranormal Activity 2
29:59
SPEAKER_00: that much more successful because he had a list that he could nurture.
30:02
SPEAKER_00: Blumhouse, a major studio, they have an email newsletter.
30:06
SPEAKER_00: Like, all these places build their audiences
30:08
SPEAKER_00: and nurture those audiences.
30:09
And I think law firms can really learn from how horror movies
30:12
do it instead of
30:12
SPEAKER_00: Marvel,
30:13
SPEAKER_00: which is like big announcements,
30:14
SPEAKER_00: spend a lot of money,
30:16
SPEAKER_00: hope that this works out and it doesn't always pan out.
30:19
SPEAKER_00: And if it fails, you lose a ton of money in the process.
30:23
SPEAKER_00: Horror movies rarely ever lose money.
30:26
SPEAKER_00: That's the amazing thing about them.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: You put $3 million into Sinister and you get $87 million in return.
30:34
SPEAKER_00: Like how D that's a pretty good deal right there.
30:36
SPEAKER_00: So
30:38
Looking at the law firms and like the working up of case value
30:41
these days,
30:41
SPEAKER_00: if cost of acquisition is really high,
30:44
SPEAKER_00: you got to make sure that when these files come in,
30:46
SPEAKER_00: and this like speaks,
30:47
SPEAKER_00: I think,
30:47
SPEAKER_00: Tiff,
30:48
SPEAKER_00: to you talking about marketing has a role,
30:50
SPEAKER_00: but other things now also play an increased role.
30:53
You got to be really good at maximizing the value of those
30:55
cases that you actually do get.
30:57
There's a Dan Kennedy book,
30:58
Almost Alchemy,
31:00
and the idea of doing more with less.
31:02
SPEAKER_00: If you're not going to get as many cases as the big firms,
31:04
SPEAKER_00: you have to maximize what actually comes in.
31:07
SPEAKER_00: If you're a firm where you have a pricing structure,
31:10
you need to figure out how to improve your sales process to
31:13
charge more to clients.
31:14
That way you can also provide a higher quality referral worthy
31:18
service to them.
31:19
SPEAKER_00: And you can't just rely on,
31:21
I'm going to pull all the leads because I'm the only one
31:23
actively engaged in
31:24
SPEAKER_00: marketing in my community.
31:25
SPEAKER_00: It's just other people are marketing.
31:27
SPEAKER_00: So better make the most of what you get.
31:32
I saw that headline,
31:33
like market your law firm,
31:34
like a horror movie instead of an action movie.
31:36
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, what is he talking about?
31:39
SPEAKER_01: But now that you explained it, I get it.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
31:42
SPEAKER_01: you should watch,
31:43
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you watch YouTube a lot,
31:44
SPEAKER_01: but Red Letter Media,
31:46
they do like these movie and they recap like a lot of old
31:49
horror shows and stuff
31:50
SPEAKER_01: like that.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: And they're really like,
31:52
SPEAKER_01: they're kind of industry insiders,
31:53
SPEAKER_01: like they're cameramen and editors that they have all really good,
31:57
SPEAKER_01: like
31:57
I've only ever really watched the Dead Meat podcast in terms of
32:01
horror genre.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: I love movie podcasts so far.
32:04
SPEAKER_01: These guys just don't talk just about horror.
32:06
They're just a couple aging millennials talking about all the
32:10
TV shows we used to love.
32:12
SPEAKER_00: Don't out us on that, Tiff.
32:14
SPEAKER_00: I know,
32:15
SPEAKER_01: but you know,
32:16
SPEAKER_01: but I,
32:17
SPEAKER_01: one thing that I,
32:18
SPEAKER_01: a lot of people don't get about marketing outside looking at,
32:22
SPEAKER_01: it's a lot different than it used to be.
32:23
Like it used to be that a lot of law firms had like an in-house
32:27
dedicated marketer,
32:28
SPEAKER_01: like myself or like a ton of other people that we know.
32:31
SPEAKER_01: But you know, that's not really the model anymore.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: And I guess not really.
32:37
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to bring back the in-house marketer more,
32:39
except I think the biggest difference now is it's very similar
32:42
to what we've just
32:43
SPEAKER_00: talked about in terms of like specialization levels.
32:46
SPEAKER_00: It was in the past,
32:47
you kind of bring in your marketer and they would cover all the
32:51
bases for you.
32:52
SPEAKER_00: And now it's much more about, can I bring in a person who is
32:56
SPEAKER_00: So the past we used to advertise for marketing assistants, right?
32:59
Like that's kind of,
33:00
you advertise for a marketing assistant or like a marketing
33:02
manager.
33:03
SPEAKER_00: These days with a lot of law firms,
33:04
the term that we're using more and more in advertising on the
33:08
job ads is marketing
33:10
SPEAKER_00: specialist.
33:11
And so it would be something like digital marketing specialist
33:14
or social marketing
33:15
SPEAKER_00: specialist or community marketing specialist.
33:18
SPEAKER_00: And what we're doing is like,
33:19
SPEAKER_00: hey,
33:19
SPEAKER_00: we're gonna prioritize this category of marketing,
33:22
SPEAKER_00: which is pretty big overall.
33:25
And I'm gonna look for a person who can come in,
33:28
take that over and level it up.
33:32
SPEAKER_00: And then from there,
33:33
SPEAKER_00: now,
33:34
SPEAKER_00: maybe over time,
33:34
SPEAKER_00: that person becomes a marketing manager or marketing director.
33:37
SPEAKER_00: And part of the problem, like if we're being ruthlessly honest is,
33:41
the term marketing director lost its meaning at some point
33:45
where it's like you
33:46
you're bringing in a complete neophyte like someone who just
33:48
graduated from college
33:49
and calling them a marketing director and then two years later
33:53
you're wondering why
33:55
they're operating with an entitlement attitude and aren't
33:58
really doing the same
33:59
SPEAKER_00: work well
34:00
they had no career ladder they had nothing to earn they just
34:03
were given a title and
34:04
so you got to appropriately title people especially in
34:07
marketing otherwise folks
34:09
can get too big for their britches real fast you know that was
34:13
like my first like
34:15
really good linkedin post i think was like the hook was
34:19
something like your first
34:20
SPEAKER_01: marketer shouldn't have the title marketing director
34:23
SPEAKER_01: And that was like,
34:25
SPEAKER_01: actually,
34:25
I think I heard Jason Hennessy actually say it from the stage
34:28
is where I got like
34:29
SPEAKER_01: the original idea.
34:30
SPEAKER_01: I think he said that.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: And then I was like, yeah, he's right.
34:33
SPEAKER_01: Because I mean,
34:34
SPEAKER_01: that's what,
34:35
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
34:35
I think I was a specialist for a while before I was like
34:38
marketing director.
34:39
SPEAKER_01: So I didn't necessarily get like thrust in that position,
34:42
SPEAKER_01: but there needs to be kind of a career ladder.
34:45
SPEAKER_01: And I mean,
34:46
when people talk about AI and how AI kind of removes the need
34:50
for some of the
34:50
SPEAKER_01: marketing assistants,
34:52
SPEAKER_01: They're missing out on that crucial, critical training.
34:55
SPEAKER_01: These days, this part is so different.
34:59
Maybe I kind of want to talk to you more about this than
35:02
anything else we have talked about.
35:03
SPEAKER_01: But back in the day, we wrote...
35:07
emails by hand we were craftsmen like we still in thank you
35:11
very much our own
35:12
copywriting you know our own facebook ad headlines our own
35:15
descriptions and we had
35:17
to like we had to learn by doing learn by like reading other
35:21
copywriters and for me
35:22
it was like a really long learning curve getting approaching
35:27
kind of good at it and
35:28
SPEAKER_01: but they're like one there's i feel like that curve is going away two
35:34
SPEAKER_01: I'm getting a lot more copy than we used to.
35:38
SPEAKER_01: I'm reviewing a lot more copy than we used to,
35:41
SPEAKER_01: but like none of it or not none of it,
35:43
SPEAKER_01: but like,
35:45
SPEAKER_01: it's just low quality.
35:46
SPEAKER_01: Like,
35:46
SPEAKER_01: you know,
35:47
SPEAKER_01: if you put a marketer and said,
35:49
SPEAKER_01: you have to write this,
35:50
SPEAKER_01: don't use ChatGVT,
35:51
they would have come up something better than what the AI would
35:54
have come up with,
35:55
SPEAKER_01: I think.
35:56
SPEAKER_01: And so like, they're just missing out on that critical training.
35:58
SPEAKER_01: And I'm,
35:59
SPEAKER_01: I these days I'm kind of thinking like,
36:01
SPEAKER_01: man,
36:01
SPEAKER_01: these marketers really need some copywriting training.
36:04
Like they need more of it because like I'm teaching stuff that
36:07
I kind of taken for
36:08
SPEAKER_01: granted that you learn in the early stages.
36:11
So like with my email marketing agency,
36:14
Red Cracking Creative,
36:15
we do not produce copy with AI.
36:17
SPEAKER_00: We have actual writers who have credentials.
36:20
SPEAKER_00: We have people who have written books that have sold 60,000 copies.
36:25
We have people who have worked with like Lisa Marie Presley and
36:28
Dolly Parton,
36:29
SPEAKER_00: like people who have...
36:31
SPEAKER_00: legitimate credentials and produce great work.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: And it is human touch.
36:37
SPEAKER_00: Now we talk about, hey, here's the appropriate usage of AI.
36:41
SPEAKER_00: If you're working with a client who loves 80s pop songs,
36:46
use ai to find bands and lyrics and reference points from 80s
36:50
pop songs for jumping
36:52
off points you don't have to become an industry insider or
36:55
culture expert on that
36:57
that's where you can get some assistance from ai because it
37:00
does a better job than
37:01
google of surfacing that exact specific thing that you're
37:04
looking for like i'm
37:05
looking for an 80s pop song that really focuses on women
37:09
empowerment right
37:11
Cause we've got clients who like,
37:12
that would be something that's important to them.
37:14
SPEAKER_00: Great.
37:14
It'll pull up exactly what you want instead of you sorting
37:16
through Google's
37:17
SPEAKER_00: results,
37:18
SPEAKER_00: which will take more time overall.
37:20
SPEAKER_00: So that's where we're using,
37:21
SPEAKER_00: but like the production of copy,
37:22
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
37:23
SPEAKER_00: and today my,
37:24
SPEAKER_00: my emails that I write,
37:26
SPEAKER_00: it's all me,
37:27
SPEAKER_00: my print content that I write,
37:28
SPEAKER_00: it is all me because
37:31
I've seen what some of the other gurus put out in their content
37:35
that members of
37:36
SPEAKER_00: organizations like et cetera are paying for them.
37:39
SPEAKER_00: This is obviously chat GPT.
37:42
SPEAKER_00: This is not, this is even, this is poorly curated information.
37:46
They're giving surface level,
37:48
like first,
37:50
first response,
37:51
best response answers to questions.
37:53
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, you're not,
37:55
SPEAKER_00: You're also only ever answering the question.
37:56
SPEAKER_00: You're not really helping people understand why or going into any depth.
38:00
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
38:00
when I'm spending an entire issue using the analogy of horror
38:04
movies and the
38:06
SPEAKER_00: production cycle and the marketing cycle for them,
38:09
SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry,
38:09
but no AI is coming up with that idea and putting the level of
38:14
character and flavor
38:16
SPEAKER_00: in it that again,
38:16
SPEAKER_00: it's,
38:17
SPEAKER_00: I'm not looking to drown you in 16 pages of dense information.
38:24
SPEAKER_00: I want you to learn something.
38:25
SPEAKER_00: I want you to have, I want that stickiness to it.
38:28
SPEAKER_00: ChatGPT, great at just like, it can crank out a long list of to-dos,
38:34
SPEAKER_00: But who cares?
38:35
SPEAKER_00: And by the way,
38:36
SPEAKER_00: if that's what you're using it for,
38:37
SPEAKER_00: just know that,
38:38
SPEAKER_00: especially if you're an information marketer,
38:40
you're putting yourself into the lowest common denominator
38:43
because there becomes no
38:44
SPEAKER_00: reason to work with you over all other options.
38:50
SPEAKER_01: I definitely there's a definitely a time and a place for AI content.
38:54
No,
38:54
I'll mess up like I have a GPT that specifically writes
38:57
LinkedIn posts for me.
38:59
SPEAKER_01: But here's the kicker.
39:00
Like sometimes I feed it a prompt that's like five paragraphs
39:04
long of just me like,
39:05
SPEAKER_01: like brain dump.
39:06
SPEAKER_01: I just don't have to format it.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: You know, that's what chat GPT does for me, right?
39:10
SPEAKER_01: But you know, like I love making the content by hand.
39:13
SPEAKER_01: And then the easiest thing in the world to do is record video.
39:16
SPEAKER_00: Despite how easy videos are,
39:18
SPEAKER_00: and despite,
39:18
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
39:19
SPEAKER_00: like right now,
39:19
SPEAKER_00: you can tell I'm all kinds of animated.
39:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm loving doing this.
39:23
I don't know why,
39:24
but I don't as frequently turn the camera on for myself.
39:28
And part of it is I just,
39:30
I will end up spending that time writing by default.
39:33
SPEAKER_00: But it's also because, and this is about like know thyself as well.
39:36
SPEAKER_00: Know thy production cycle.
39:38
SPEAKER_00: I don't.
39:38
SPEAKER_00: I love writing,
39:40
which also colors everything that I've said about AI and my
39:43
preciousness about it.
39:44
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
39:44
SPEAKER_00: I could go on a rant about how,
39:45
SPEAKER_00: like with the email agency,
39:47
we also believe in supporting the freelancer economy and
39:49
building the personal
39:50
SPEAKER_00: relationships with your writer,
39:51
SPEAKER_00: et cetera.
39:52
SPEAKER_00: Like there are other reasons, but...
39:54
SPEAKER_00: I also am a writer.
39:55
SPEAKER_00: And so I will naturally want to preserve writing as a thing.
40:00
I have used chat to help find some of those reference points,
40:04
but yes,
40:04
that colors what I do.
40:05
And so instead of getting on video,
40:06
I'm like,
40:07
whatever,
40:07
I'll write another post.
40:08
SPEAKER_00: I'll write another email.
40:09
SPEAKER_00: I'll write more, more articles.
40:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
40:12
SPEAKER_01: Oh,
40:13
SPEAKER_01: the,
40:13
SPEAKER_01: um,
40:13
SPEAKER_01: articles I write for my newsletter,
40:15
SPEAKER_01: those are handwritten,
40:17
SPEAKER_01: you know,
40:17
SPEAKER_01: those are finely crafted,
40:19
SPEAKER_01: you know,
40:20
SPEAKER_01: those are my thoughts.
40:21
Although,
40:22
you know,
40:22
Grammarly is certainly a big help when it comes to the grammar.
40:25
SPEAKER_01: Oh,
40:25
SPEAKER_00: well you'll,
40:26
SPEAKER_00: speaking of handwritten,
40:26
SPEAKER_00: you'll appreciate this and people who are watching via video can see.
40:29
SPEAKER_00: So like these days now I even write out longhand,
40:32
some of my emails that I send on a legal pad and then type them
40:36
up just because
40:38
SPEAKER_00: This way,
40:38
a lot of times ideas come to me when I might be watching a show
40:41
with my kids in the
40:42
SPEAKER_00: evening or something like that,
40:43
SPEAKER_00: because a lot of it gets inspired by pop culture,
40:45
SPEAKER_00: like what I'm listening and watching.
40:48
SPEAKER_00: And so I'll start writing it on a legal pad,
40:50
which is better than dad pulling out his laptop and starting to
40:53
hammer something
40:54
SPEAKER_00: out.
40:54
SPEAKER_00: So that's also the other trick to it.
40:56
SPEAKER_01: I actually, I slack my project board.
40:58
SPEAKER_01: Like I'll slack my project board.
41:00
And if it's like a little reminder note in there and I deal
41:03
with it later,
41:04
SPEAKER_01: I don't hand out right on my emails.
41:06
SPEAKER_00: That's a. By the way, it's a terrible idea.
41:09
SPEAKER_00: It's time consuming.
41:10
SPEAKER_00: I do not recommend it to anyone.
41:12
SPEAKER_00: It just happens to be where my brain is at right now.
41:14
SPEAKER_00: And by the way,
41:15
SPEAKER_00: nine months from now,
41:16
SPEAKER_00: maybe I'm not doing that at all,
41:17
SPEAKER_00: but maybe I'll return to it another two years from now,
41:19
SPEAKER_00: right?
41:20
SPEAKER_00: Like that's also the honest thing is some of this stuff shifts for folks.
41:24
SPEAKER_01: Are you not using the remarkable tablet anymore?
41:26
SPEAKER_00: I've never had a Remarkable tablet.
41:28
SPEAKER_01: Really?
41:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:30
SPEAKER_01: OK, yeah.
41:30
SPEAKER_01: I guess I don't remember you having one.
41:32
SPEAKER_01: I just assumed.
41:33
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
41:34
SPEAKER_00: And by the way, fair assumption.
41:36
SPEAKER_00: Most people have assumed that at some point,
41:38
SPEAKER_00: because people will ask me,
41:39
SPEAKER_00: like,
41:39
SPEAKER_00: what do you think of the Remarkable tablet?
41:40
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I've never taught.
41:41
I mean,
41:42
the only time I've actually used one was you let me test yours
41:44
out.
41:45
SPEAKER_00: Because I have an annual tradition, Tiff.
41:48
SPEAKER_00: I go to the Remarkable website.
41:50
SPEAKER_00: And I get all the way to the cart.
41:52
SPEAKER_00: And then I go, why am I buying this?
41:56
SPEAKER_00: For me, I have an iPad Pro.
41:59
One of my actual business goals is to set up where both of my
42:03
companies can be run entirely off
42:05
SPEAKER_00: in iPad Pro.
42:06
That's this kind of framework that I have for how I'm trying to
42:10
make decisions to
42:11
SPEAKER_00: keep things lean,
42:12
SPEAKER_00: to keep technology simple,
42:14
SPEAKER_00: to consider like,
42:16
is this an activity that I should be involved in or do I need a
42:18
team member who's
42:19
SPEAKER_00: actually going to take care of this?
42:20
Or my awesome co-founder,
42:22
Jenny for Red Cracking Creative,
42:24
will take care of this.
42:25
SPEAKER_00: Or Jeff Ashworth, our creative director.
42:27
SPEAKER_00: So
42:28
I just ended up looking at it and going,
42:29
well,
42:30
it's got good notes on it.
42:31
SPEAKER_00: So I can take, I can do handwritten stuff in there if I want to.
42:34
But most of the time,
42:35
if I'm going to handwrite,
42:36
God,
42:36
I just,
42:37
I also love pens and notebooks.
42:39
SPEAKER_00: Heaven help me.
42:39
SPEAKER_00: I like pens and notebooks.
42:41
SPEAKER_00: It's a dumb thing, but eh, whatever.
42:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I used to carry a laptop with me everywhere.
42:47
SPEAKER_01: And this year I built myself a PC.
42:49
I actually built it myself and I want to brag really quick,
42:52
but I got four sticks of Ram for it.
42:54
SPEAKER_01: And like less than a few weeks later, that's when Ram shot up.
42:58
SPEAKER_01: Like I could sell my Ram sticks for like a 300% profit right now.
43:04
SPEAKER_01: It was like, I got four of them too.
43:06
SPEAKER_01: Like I've maxed out that Ram there.
43:08
So now what's weird is like,
43:09
I used to have a computer basically wherever I go.
43:13
SPEAKER_01: Last two times I went to an event,
43:15
SPEAKER_01: the first one,
43:16
my laptop stayed in my luggage because I can do most things
43:19
from my phone.
43:20
SPEAKER_01: And then the second one, I was just like, you know what?
43:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm just not going to bring it.
43:23
SPEAKER_01: I didn't even need it.
43:24
SPEAKER_01: Like, cause emails on my phone, Slack's on my phone.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: My project boards are on my phone.
43:29
And like,
43:29
I've kind of like disconnected a little bit and I spend more
43:32
time.
43:33
I mean,
43:34
I don't want to do that much work on my phone cause it's a
43:36
teeny tiny thing.
43:37
SPEAKER_01: So, and I've kind of done the same thing with like surface tablets.
43:40
SPEAKER_01: Like I want to get like a surface tablet.
43:42
SPEAKER_01: I see them at events all the time.
43:43
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, this is so neat.
43:45
SPEAKER_01: But like I get to the cart checkout process and I'm like, I mean,
43:51
SPEAKER_00: I'm with you.
43:52
SPEAKER_00: The Surface is a cool device.
43:53
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it is.
43:54
So for me,
43:55
I don't have work email on my phone at all across either of the
43:58
companies.
43:58
So that's part of it is also like the iPad Pro for me
44:01
represents this like
44:03
SPEAKER_00: workstation silo,
44:04
SPEAKER_00: essentially.
44:05
SPEAKER_00: Whereas my phone,
44:06
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
44:06
SPEAKER_00: I do have Slack on my phone,
44:07
SPEAKER_00: admittedly,
44:08
because I want my team members and my mastermind group to be
44:11
able to reach me and
44:12
SPEAKER_00: then like coaching clients can text me.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: So anything that's that high level, I will have
44:19
SPEAKER_00: access to it on an appropriate timeline.
44:24
SPEAKER_00: But email, nah, they can wait.
44:27
SPEAKER_01: Well, we went a little over on time, but I guess it's all right.
44:30
SPEAKER_00: Shame on us.
44:31
SPEAKER_01: I know.
44:32
SPEAKER_01: We probably could have kept rambling on.
44:34
SPEAKER_01: This could have been my longest episode.
44:36
Do you want to talk about the eighth season of Game of Thrones
44:39
for a little bit?
44:41
SPEAKER_01: Oh, where they just completely drop the ball?
44:43
SPEAKER_00: 100%, yeah.
44:45
SPEAKER_01: Actually, if you want to be for real, I want to talk about Pluribus.
44:47
SPEAKER_01: Have you watched Pluribus yet?
44:49
SPEAKER_00: I love Pluribus.
44:50
SPEAKER_01: Oh, my God.
44:51
I just watched the last episode last night,
44:53
and I'm like,
44:54
this is fantastic.
44:55
SPEAKER_01: It's so cool.
44:56
SPEAKER_00: Reese Seahorn, she's outstanding.
44:59
SPEAKER_00: They just have these close-ups of her face where she's slowly absorbing
45:03
SPEAKER_00: information,
45:03
SPEAKER_00: and I'm just at a complete standstill staring at it.
45:07
SPEAKER_00: I've tried to watch that show while folding laundry or something,
45:10
and I find myself with a half-folded T-shirt just kind of
45:13
staring at the screening,
45:15
practically to the point where I'm so wrapped I could start
45:17
drooling and wouldn't
45:18
SPEAKER_00: notice it.
45:18
SPEAKER_00: There's something...
45:20
so inter well i mean vince gilligan also he's a master of
45:22
process like he shows he
45:24
did it with breaking bad he did it with some of his x-files
45:26
episodes where he shows
45:28
that exacting bit of process and he has that patience like
45:32
there's a shot in
45:32
pluribus where we're seeing one of the characters like come
45:36
from a place where
45:37
she's been putting dead bodies onto a like a u-haul and then
45:42
how she makes her way
45:42
SPEAKER_00: across the world and we're talking about there's no dialogue
45:46
SPEAKER_00: It's like 10 minutes of just her going from vehicle to vehicle,
45:49
SPEAKER_00: all the little steps along the way.
45:50
SPEAKER_00: It's just clicking the whole time.
45:52
SPEAKER_00: This is amazing.
45:53
And I have learned so much about the world without someone like
45:58
grabbing a spoonful
45:59
SPEAKER_00: of slop and cramming it into my ears and being like,
46:02
SPEAKER_00: you understand it now because I'm telling you everything.
46:04
SPEAKER_00: You have to actually watch.
46:06
SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's an intelligence show and it doesn't talk down to the audience.
46:10
SPEAKER_01: And it's definitely a puzzler.
46:12
SPEAKER_01: Charles and I watched the last episode of it last night.
46:14
And I went to bed a little bit before him and I stayed up just
46:17
like staring at the ceiling.
46:18
SPEAKER_01: And then he comes in and he was like, I think I figured it out.
46:20
SPEAKER_01: I told you my queer bit fan theories.
46:24
SPEAKER_01: I think I got it.
46:25
SPEAKER_01: I think I know everything.
46:27
SPEAKER_00: And there have been quite a few times where I felt like,
46:30
SPEAKER_00: oh,
46:30
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
46:30
SPEAKER_00: God,
46:31
SPEAKER_00: we know where this show is going.
46:33
SPEAKER_00: And then it drops the next episode.
46:35
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, no, you didn't have a clue.
46:37
SPEAKER_00: But nice try.
46:37
SPEAKER_00: Stop trying to walk out in front of us.
46:39
SPEAKER_00: Enjoy the journey with us.
46:40
SPEAKER_00: You might be surprised.
46:44
SPEAKER_00: I can't wait for season two.
46:44
SPEAKER_01: He also did the best X-Files episode.
46:46
SPEAKER_01: I want to tell you something really dorky I did.
46:48
SPEAKER_01: Everyone must know.
46:49
I actually did like a thing where I plotted out X-Files
46:53
episodes by who was the lead writer.
46:57
And then I went to AO3 to see which episodes had the most fan
47:01
fiction written from him.
47:03
And Vince Gilligan consistently,
47:04
his episodes had the most fan fiction written out.
47:07
I posted on a Reddit on an account that nobody will look up and
47:10
find because she can't.
47:11
SPEAKER_01: But like, and it was just it was kind of interesting to me.
47:14
SPEAKER_01: That was the dorkiest, faniest, stupidest thing I did.
47:17
SPEAKER_00: Well, see, immediately I'm like, huh, I wonder why that is.
47:21
Is it because he has these like little ticking clock worlds
47:25
that he's built that
47:26
allow for that give the space for what else could exist within
47:30
these established
47:32
SPEAKER_00: rules that we have that are.
47:34
SPEAKER_00: that give a lot of space for us to try and figure things out,
47:37
SPEAKER_00: but also have hard barriers against them.
47:39
I mean,
47:39
that would kind of famously be,
47:40
obviously,
47:40
Breaking Bad and Pluribus.
47:42
SPEAKER_00: But now I'm really curious, kind of backtracking.
47:46
SPEAKER_00: I find that very interesting, personally.
47:48
SPEAKER_01: My theory,
47:49
SPEAKER_01: because I thought about it,
47:50
SPEAKER_01: obviously,
47:50
SPEAKER_01: is that at some point,
47:51
SPEAKER_01: Vince Gilligan and many other authors have said it.
47:55
SPEAKER_01: This is not an original thought of his,
47:57
SPEAKER_01: but he's one of the authors that's like,
47:59
SPEAKER_01: I want to tell the truth.
48:01
SPEAKER_01: So he makes dialogue realistic, how characters react realistic.
48:07
SPEAKER_01: I think he puts thought into how would somebody act in this situation.
48:12
SPEAKER_01: And going,
48:12
SPEAKER_01: you know,
48:12
SPEAKER_01: going back to even his earliest episodes,
48:14
SPEAKER_01: like he was very faithful to like,
48:17
SPEAKER_01: I guess,
48:17
SPEAKER_01: emotional integrity.
48:18
SPEAKER_01: I don't even know if that's the thing.
48:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:20
And so I think that for fan fiction authors who are writing
48:24
little romances and
48:25
SPEAKER_01: stuff like that,
48:26
SPEAKER_01: they can really latch on to that.
48:27
SPEAKER_01: They can build off of that.
48:28
But if it's like over the top and silly and if the characters
48:31
react and it's not
48:32
SPEAKER_01: believable,
48:33
SPEAKER_01: then it's just hard to like spin off of it,
48:35
SPEAKER_01: I think.
48:36
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
48:36
SPEAKER_00: honestly,
48:37
SPEAKER_00: there's kind of a,
48:38
SPEAKER_00: like,
48:39
SPEAKER_00: not to immediately go there,
48:40
SPEAKER_00: but there is a little bit of a lesson in,
48:41
SPEAKER_00: like,
48:42
SPEAKER_00: world building.
48:43
SPEAKER_00: And world building, in my opinion, is kind of part of marketing.
48:45
SPEAKER_00: Learned that from Ben Settle some time ago.
48:47
SPEAKER_00: But that idea of when you encounter these characters,
48:51
SPEAKER_00: you can rely on how they will react to things.
48:54
SPEAKER_00: Like,
48:54
you're not surprised when someone reacts in anger to a
48:58
situation that you go,
48:59
SPEAKER_00: please don't react in anger.
49:00
SPEAKER_00: Oh, please, please let this be.
49:01
SPEAKER_00: And they go, nope, sorry.
49:03
SPEAKER_00: You understand that this is who this person is.
49:06
SPEAKER_00: And perhaps at some point they have tried to not be angry.
49:08
SPEAKER_00: We have shown them trying to have restraint,
49:11
SPEAKER_00: but let's be honest,
49:12
SPEAKER_00: most human beings revert back to their average behavior,
49:15
SPEAKER_00: their heuristic reaction,
49:17
SPEAKER_00: and sorry,
49:18
SPEAKER_00: it's gonna be an angry reaction.
49:19
SPEAKER_00: I realize it's gonna cause more conflict,
49:21
SPEAKER_00: but that's what this is,
49:23
SPEAKER_00: which in the world of say fan fiction,
49:26
SPEAKER_00: the,
49:26
SPEAKER_00: to speak to emotional integrity,
49:29
SPEAKER_00: Fans, I mean, fans love to kind of debate things, right?
49:32
They like to see,
49:34
we could do a whole rant on Stranger Things and my fury over
49:37
all that.
49:38
SPEAKER_01: I haven't watched the last two seasons.
49:41
SPEAKER_01: I gave up when they killed that poor Russian guy.
49:43
SPEAKER_01: That broke my heart.
49:44
SPEAKER_01: I didn't forgive him after that.
49:45
SPEAKER_01: I was just like, no, I'm good.
49:48
SPEAKER_01: I like that guy.
49:49
SPEAKER_01: You should have kept him.
49:50
SPEAKER_01: But I actually, that was the final straw for me.
49:54
SPEAKER_01: I have not watched Stranger Things since.
49:55
SPEAKER_01: They killed my favorite character in season three.
49:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
49:59
SPEAKER_01: He just liked his Slurpees.
50:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:01
SPEAKER_00: But having that integrity,
50:03
SPEAKER_00: fans want to be able to look at their worlds and go,
50:04
SPEAKER_00: I understand where this came from.
50:07
SPEAKER_00: I understand where the response came from.
50:09
SPEAKER_00: We could probably figure out some marketing analogy.
50:10
SPEAKER_00: But honestly, at this point, it's just kind of fun to talk about.
50:13
SPEAKER_00: And this is the type of stuff that,
50:14
SPEAKER_00: in my opinion,
50:15
SPEAKER_00: people like to hear this sort of thing because they're like,
50:17
SPEAKER_00: oh,
50:17
SPEAKER_00: wow,
50:17
SPEAKER_00: I can now relate to Tiff and Charlie more.
50:19
SPEAKER_00: I,
50:19
SPEAKER_00: too,
50:20
SPEAKER_00: enjoy X-Files,
50:21
SPEAKER_00: which,
50:21
SPEAKER_00: by the way,
50:21
SPEAKER_00: if you want to talk X-Files,
50:23
SPEAKER_00: Tiff is really your person.
50:24
SPEAKER_00: I've watched the entirety of it, but Tiff knows the X-Files really well.
50:29
SPEAKER_01: Very deeply.
50:31
And my favorite game to play is watching shows and being like,
50:34
that guy was in the X-Files.
50:35
SPEAKER_01: I can identify side characters really well.
50:38
SPEAKER_00: I'm with you there.
50:39
SPEAKER_00: That is a game that I will play.
50:41
SPEAKER_01: You know,
50:42
SPEAKER_01: for me,
50:42
SPEAKER_01: the overlap,
50:43
SPEAKER_01: because we always did this,
50:44
we always talked about movies and TV and dissecting them and
50:47
stuff like that.
50:48
But like the overlap with marketing that I feel like people
50:51
don't get is,
50:52
well,
50:52
one,
50:52
production.
50:53
SPEAKER_01: The production of something like Pluribus,
50:55
like they're not going to release a new one until like 2028 and
50:59
it kills me.
51:00
SPEAKER_01: But like, that's how much work it takes to make something good, one.
51:05
And then two,
51:06
like,
51:06
and that was Seth Godin's book,
51:08
like all marketers are liars.
51:10
SPEAKER_01: slash it out storytellers.
51:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
51:12
SPEAKER_00: And,
51:13
SPEAKER_01: you know,
51:13
that's what I'm telling attorneys and the marketers when we
51:16
talk about social media
51:17
SPEAKER_01: in particular,
51:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm like,
51:18
SPEAKER_01: just get on there and tell stories.
51:20
SPEAKER_01: People love stories.
51:21
And if you're good at telling stories,
51:23
like you can capture their attention.
51:25
So like the art of storytelling in a lot of ways is the art of
51:28
marketing because,
51:29
SPEAKER_01: you know,
51:30
SPEAKER_01: your emotional resonance,
51:31
SPEAKER_01: emotional integrity,
51:33
SPEAKER_01: trying to,
51:34
SPEAKER_01: you know,
51:34
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to say something that's true,
51:37
SPEAKER_01: but maybe isn't.
51:38
SPEAKER_01: But like, you know, speak to the truth in them, I guess.
51:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
51:42
And people can understand some of these messages better when
51:46
they see it through
51:46
SPEAKER_00: the eyes of a character.
51:48
SPEAKER_00: It's why movies these days,
51:50
SPEAKER_00: a lot of movies these days that maybe should be good,
51:52
I think often end up feeling not good because you have
51:57
companies like Netflix where
51:59
SPEAKER_00: they literally tell the producers of movies and TV shows
52:03
SPEAKER_00: Just assume people are looking at their phone while they're doing this.
52:07
SPEAKER_00: And so you need to say the same thing every single scene.
52:09
SPEAKER_00: You need to remind people of the stakes three,
52:12
SPEAKER_00: four,
52:12
SPEAKER_00: five,
52:13
SPEAKER_00: a dozen times because they've forgotten.
52:15
SPEAKER_00: They're a bunch of brain dead people.
52:17
SPEAKER_00: And interestingly, they become surprised when people go,
52:21
Why isn't this,
52:22
I don't know,
52:23
this isn't as good as I thought it was gonna be.
52:25
SPEAKER_00: It's because,
52:25
SPEAKER_00: oh yeah,
52:25
they've been hitting you over the head over and over again with
52:29
poorly constructed
52:30
SPEAKER_00: storytelling devices.
52:32
SPEAKER_00: And you should study storytelling devices.
52:34
So one thing I'd love to tip that I'd love to give the
52:36
audience,
52:37
a very simple one is,
52:38
SPEAKER_00: There's a storytelling or kind of a framework set up called in media res,
52:42
SPEAKER_00: which just means in the middle of the action.
52:45
So it's the classic,
52:47
you turn on a movie and you know,
52:49
the fight scene is already happening.
52:51
SPEAKER_00: All of a sudden it goes, you might wonder how I got here.
52:54
SPEAKER_00: So that's like an in media res type of,
52:56
SPEAKER_00: when you're looking at creating hooks for marketing,
53:00
SPEAKER_00: one of the things you can do is pull a piece of the middle,
53:02
the most interesting piece in the middle of what you wanna
53:05
share and put that at
53:06
the beginning as your hook and then lead people there through
53:11
the rest of the
53:11
SPEAKER_00: narrative.
53:12
SPEAKER_00: That's what studying storytelling
53:14
SPEAKER_00: teaches you,
53:15
SPEAKER_00: you start seeing like,
53:16
SPEAKER_00: oh,
53:17
this would be so much more interesting if people understood
53:19
that there's going to
53:20
SPEAKER_00: be this massive fight or battle at the end.
53:23
SPEAKER_00: And now we can start ratcheting up tension for all of this,
53:27
SPEAKER_00: because they're still going to wonder how it all ends.
53:29
SPEAKER_00: That's why you study storytelling.
53:32
SPEAKER_01: OK, well, just a quick little side question.
53:35
SPEAKER_01: But what would you like?
53:36
SPEAKER_01: Let's say somebody who critiques writing says,
53:40
SPEAKER_01: as they often do,
53:42
SPEAKER_01: that flash forwards or flashbacks are lazy.
53:44
SPEAKER_01: How would you reboot that or rebuttal that or whatever in this context?
53:49
SPEAKER_00: So, OK, so you're saying like they go, hey, that's kind of a cheap trick.
53:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
53:53
SPEAKER_01: I just like,
53:55
SPEAKER_01: well,
53:55
SPEAKER_01: I don't know who it was,
53:56
but I remember either in college or just talking to somebody or
54:00
maybe in my
54:00
SPEAKER_01: writer's group,
54:02
SPEAKER_01: like they'll say,
54:02
SPEAKER_01: you know,
54:04
SPEAKER_01: start the story where it starts,
54:05
SPEAKER_01: not where it gets interesting.
54:07
Like,
54:08
like,
54:08
how would you rebuttal that if somebody gave you that critique?
54:11
SPEAKER_00: So if you're doing long form writing,
54:13
I'm all for it because part of long form writing is sitting and
54:17
soaking in the
54:17
SPEAKER_00: universe.
54:18
SPEAKER_00: But if you are,
54:19
SPEAKER_00: if you instead study say television or film and even live theater,
54:25
SPEAKER_00: sometimes the best advice that people receive is start late,
54:29
SPEAKER_00: end early.
54:30
SPEAKER_00: So what that means is instead of showing someone walk through the door,
54:36
SPEAKER_00: walking up the stairs,
54:37
like unless it's a very deliberate Vince Gilligan thing and
54:39
you're going to teach
54:39
SPEAKER_00: things along the way,
54:41
SPEAKER_00: you see a lot of like junior film students do this.
54:44
They want to show the person walking in the door and being
54:45
really downtrodden
54:46
SPEAKER_00: instead of like,
54:47
SPEAKER_00: let's start at the point of action or even a little bit into the action.
54:53
and then instead of sitting on the scene as we come out and
54:57
just soaking it all in
54:59
which some filmmakers do but if we're looking at films that
55:02
tend to get the most
55:03
popularity including high quality oscar caliber films at some
55:07
point they go like
55:08
hey we don't actually need to sit in this this is done let's
55:10
get out get out of the
55:11
scene we need to move on we need to move to the next chunk of
55:14
story instead of
55:15
SPEAKER_00: watching someone turn
55:16
SPEAKER_00: Turn on the car and start driving away.
55:19
Is it better to just be in the drive when we cut to them in the
55:23
dialogue that
55:24
SPEAKER_00: they're having with the person?
55:25
So it depends on what format you're really going for,
55:29
what your audience expectations are.
55:32
SPEAKER_00: I love being able to soak in a universe like a great sci-fi novel.
55:37
Unless there are some that are really,
55:39
really quick,
55:39
like All Systems Red,
55:40
right?
55:40
Like that's a really quick Martha Wells,
55:43
I want to say is the author of that.
55:45
And she just kind of knocks it out,
55:46
which was kind of an okay television show on Apple TV.
55:50
SPEAKER_00: I enjoyed it more or less.
55:51
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't great though.
55:52
SPEAKER_00: So that's like really quick and clippy.
55:53
SPEAKER_00: But if you look at say Brandon Sanderson novels,
55:56
SPEAKER_00: which really more on the fantasy than the sci-fi side,
55:58
but the Brandon Sanderson models or the George RR Martin model
56:02
is we're really
56:03
SPEAKER_00: going to sit in it.
56:04
SPEAKER_00: We're going to do extensive world building.
56:06
SPEAKER_00: But if you're marketing,
56:08
SPEAKER_00: Your first salvo, I would err on the side of like film and television.
56:13
SPEAKER_00: And then if you've built an audience,
56:17
the audience now becomes invested more and more in the world
56:19
building and you do
56:20
SPEAKER_00: wanna feed them more and more.
56:21
SPEAKER_00: You don't necessarily wanna get in, get out really quick.
56:24
You wanna give them space to get deeper and deeper and deeper
56:27
because the affinity grows.
56:29
SPEAKER_00: Like for your law firm has a lot of interesting trivia to it.
56:32
SPEAKER_00: It's filled with stories.
56:34
SPEAKER_00: It's filled with lore.
56:35
SPEAKER_00: that you can incorporate in your firm's marketing.
56:40
SPEAKER_00: We just don't often think that way.
56:44
SPEAKER_01: I like that more.
56:44
SPEAKER_00: Did I do the assignment?
56:46
SPEAKER_01: I don't, I guess so, yeah.
56:48
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
56:49
You said lore and I made a joke that Landon once where I was
56:52
teasing a marketer and
56:54
SPEAKER_01: I asked them a question and they were like,
56:56
SPEAKER_01: oh,
56:56
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
56:57
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, you don't know your company's lore?
56:59
SPEAKER_01: And like everyone laughed and I was like, I wasn't trying to be funny.
57:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
57:02
SPEAKER_01: I just wanted to know.
57:04
SPEAKER_01: But
57:05
When we went for Ben,
57:05
like we knew the core story,
57:07
like marathoner,
57:08
dad to nine,
57:09
like all that.
57:09
SPEAKER_00: We knew the core story of all of it.
57:12
And that was important to always have that space that you're
57:16
kind of coming back to.
57:17
SPEAKER_00: As a matter of fact,
57:18
SPEAKER_00: when stories tend to lose that central thread,
57:21
SPEAKER_00: like why did people show up in the first place for this?
57:25
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I'm going to do it.
57:25
SPEAKER_00: Game of Thrones being a great example.
57:28
SPEAKER_00: Game of Thrones was it wasn't built on the big battles.
57:32
It was built on the liminal spaces where we were learning about
57:36
the characters and
57:37
SPEAKER_00: the conflicts as they were negotiating,
57:39
SPEAKER_00: as they were like the back and forth,
57:42
the little things that were happening behind the scenes to
57:45
manipulate each other.
57:46
The battles just happened to be big payoffs and pivotal moments
57:49
that were enjoyable
57:50
SPEAKER_00: because they were the paprika,
57:52
SPEAKER_00: not the salt and pepper
57:54
SPEAKER_00: of the entree that they were trying to serve.
57:57
SPEAKER_00: So that's my thought on it.
57:59
Well,
57:59
I got to call my husband out on something because,
58:02
and you know,
58:02
I also love Star Trek.
58:04
SPEAKER_01: But like, and I like Star Wars, but I don't care as much.
58:08
SPEAKER_01: But my husband,
58:09
SPEAKER_01: he was talking to,
58:10
SPEAKER_01: we were talking to some friends and he was like,
58:12
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
58:12
SPEAKER_01: I like Star Trek,
58:13
SPEAKER_01: you know,
58:13
SPEAKER_01: more than Star Wars.
58:14
SPEAKER_01: It's just much more action oriented.
58:16
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, honey, let me stop you there.
58:18
Because,
58:18
and I was like,
58:20
and honestly,
58:20
he might've been thinking about the 2009,
58:23
2008 movies.
58:24
SPEAKER_01: But like, when you think about Star Trek,
58:26
SPEAKER_01: It's science fiction slash fantasy.
58:29
SPEAKER_01: It's high technology.
58:31
SPEAKER_01: You know, in the older episodes, not necessarily the new Trek.
58:34
SPEAKER_01: They were adults who were highly skilled and competent at their jobs.
58:37
My chief complaint about Strange New Worlds is like scripted
58:41
like teenagers.
58:42
SPEAKER_01: And it's just like, that's not, you know, what Trek used to be, you know?
58:50
SPEAKER_00: Strange New Worlds is closer to like Doctor Who, I think.
58:56
SPEAKER_00: Doctor Who has a strange kind of classic British cadence to it.
58:59
SPEAKER_00: But like when we've watched Strange New Worlds,
59:00
SPEAKER_00: which I actually enjoy,
59:02
SPEAKER_00: but I'm also a big fan of Doctor Who.
59:04
SPEAKER_00: I have enjoyed it because it does have a little bit of the like,
59:07
SPEAKER_00: hey,
59:07
SPEAKER_00: this is just kind of a single character drama at some point.
59:10
SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, no, one bad thing has happened to this person.
59:13
And now we're going to deal with the consequences of it and try
59:15
and figure it out as a team.
59:17
SPEAKER_00: But it does have the cadence of more of a Doctor Who,
59:20
SPEAKER_00: where yes,
59:21
SPEAKER_00: I would agree,
59:21
SPEAKER_00: Doctor Who,
59:22
SPEAKER_00: it is a little bit of like,
59:24
SPEAKER_00: it's a kid's show in many ways.
59:27
SPEAKER_00: And the dialogue comes across that way.
59:29
SPEAKER_00: So I'd be right there with you on Strange New Worlds.
59:32
Well,
59:32
the thing about Star Trek that people overlook is it's a
59:35
character drama.
59:36
SPEAKER_01: You know, that's what I mean, and really all fiction is.
59:38
SPEAKER_01: It's all about the characters.
59:39
SPEAKER_01: And that's why,
59:40
SPEAKER_01: like,
59:41
SPEAKER_01: when we talk about marketing,
59:42
SPEAKER_01: like we used to talk about or used to talk about like the rogues gallery,
59:46
SPEAKER_01: like who's the enemy?
59:47
SPEAKER_01: And...
59:49
SPEAKER_01: You know,
59:49
SPEAKER_01: and it's like a fine line you have to walk when you're,
59:52
SPEAKER_01: you know,
59:53
SPEAKER_01: writing copy,
59:54
SPEAKER_01: talking about a message or how it's going to go.
59:56
Like you can't just like go all in and like bashing an enemy or
1:00:00
a competitor.
1:00:01
SPEAKER_01: But like the,
1:00:03
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:00:03
the person who's reading your marketing has a big bad that
1:00:07
they're dealing with.
1:00:09
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, you have to talk about that big bad.
1:00:12
And so like,
1:00:13
you know,
1:00:13
the characters and the storytelling,
1:00:15
again,
1:00:16
it's back to
1:00:17
how you weave a marketing message and a strategy and build like
1:00:21
that lore for your
1:00:22
SPEAKER_01: company and who your owner is.
1:00:24
And it's also why it's just so damn critical for the owner to
1:00:27
be involved in the marketing.
1:00:29
SPEAKER_01: Maybe not necessarily like DIY and like Facebook ads, but you know,
1:00:35
SPEAKER_01: making their lore,
1:00:36
SPEAKER_01: I guess,
1:00:36
SPEAKER_01: like going,
1:00:37
SPEAKER_01: going to events,
1:00:38
SPEAKER_01: speaking,
1:00:39
SPEAKER_01: talking about like their struggles,
1:00:42
SPEAKER_01: how,
1:00:42
SPEAKER_01: what they've had to overcome,
1:00:44
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:00:44
SPEAKER_01: you build that,
1:00:45
SPEAKER_01: you build almost a mythology of yourself.
1:00:47
And something I think about when I talk about this or think
1:00:50
about this is how
1:00:51
SPEAKER_01: Beyonce and like Lady Gaga have like alter egos.
1:00:55
Like when Beyonce goes up on stage,
1:00:58
she like has a different name for herself.
1:01:01
SPEAKER_01: Oh, is that what the name is?
1:01:03
SPEAKER_00: That's one of the most recent people talk about Cowboy Carter.
1:01:06
SPEAKER_01: I'm just going to say that.
1:01:08
SPEAKER_01: Like,
1:01:09
SPEAKER_01: and like,
1:01:10
SPEAKER_01: okay,
1:01:10
SPEAKER_01: I'm just want to make,
1:01:11
SPEAKER_01: I've never said this aloud,
1:01:12
SPEAKER_01: but I've thought it a lot.
1:01:13
SPEAKER_01: But like,
1:01:14
I think it's kind of cruel how these new artists bring Willie
1:01:19
Nelson to record
1:01:20
SPEAKER_01: tracks on there.
1:01:21
SPEAKER_01: Cause that man is like 80 fucking years old.
1:01:23
SPEAKER_01: He can't sing like he used to.
1:01:26
SPEAKER_01: It sounds bad.
1:01:27
SPEAKER_01: They're singing over him.
1:01:29
SPEAKER_01: And it's just like, like they're helping him out.
1:01:31
SPEAKER_01: He's probably making money from it.
1:01:32
SPEAKER_01: So I sympathize like, sure.
1:01:34
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:01:34
SPEAKER_01: But like, also it feels a little cruel.
1:01:38
SPEAKER_00: I thought you were going to upset the whole Bayhive and say,
1:01:41
SPEAKER_00: like,
1:01:42
SPEAKER_00: Beyonce isn't that great of an artist.
1:01:44
I was like,
1:01:44
I don't know if I want to be on that hot of a track here,
1:01:46
Tiff.
1:01:46
SPEAKER_00: I don't know that I can take that type of humor.
1:01:48
SPEAKER_01: It was purely about her.
1:01:49
SPEAKER_01: Actually, there are a few songs on that album I did genuinely like.
1:01:52
SPEAKER_01: But, like, and Miley Cyrus did it, too.
1:01:54
SPEAKER_01: A lot of these new artists.
1:01:56
SPEAKER_01: Bro Willie Nelson on there.
1:01:57
SPEAKER_01: Why?
1:01:58
SPEAKER_01: He has a son who sings decent.
1:02:01
SPEAKER_01: Go get him.
1:02:01
SPEAKER_00: He does, doesn't he?
1:02:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:02:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he records music.
1:02:06
SPEAKER_00: See, that was the exact level of enthusiasm that people feel about it.
1:02:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:02:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he does record music.
1:02:14
SPEAKER_01: I hope I didn't offend the Nelsons.
1:02:18
SPEAKER_00: Really?
1:02:18
SPEAKER_01: If you're listening, our apologies.
1:02:22
SPEAKER_01: They're going to be devastated to hear my opinion of them.
1:02:27
SPEAKER_00: You're going to get a cease and desist letter about this podcast, Tiff.
1:02:30
SPEAKER_01: Oh, my gosh.
1:02:31
SPEAKER_01: Stop talking about it.
1:02:34
SPEAKER_01: But anyway,
1:02:35
SPEAKER_01: but yeah,
1:02:36
SPEAKER_01: we went off on that because yeah,
1:02:38
SPEAKER_01: but Beyonce goes up on stage and doesn't,
1:02:41
SPEAKER_01: I guess,
1:02:41
SPEAKER_01: think of herself as Beyonce.
1:02:43
SPEAKER_01: She's like performing in character almost.
1:02:45
SPEAKER_01: And that kind of gives her the confidence to do it.
1:02:49
SPEAKER_01: And you're pretty much like, I feel like that's just a good strategy.
1:02:52
Like even when you're recording content for your business,
1:02:55
like you're not necessarily
1:02:57
You're projecting like a certain character or personality or
1:03:00
something like that.
1:03:01
SPEAKER_01: Not in an inauthentic way, but.
1:03:03
SPEAKER_00: You're exaggerating certain parties.
1:03:04
Like you're bringing certain pieces to yourself to the
1:03:08
forefront in a way that
1:03:09
SPEAKER_00: maybe you don't do in your day-to-day life,
1:03:10
but are of service to the general message that you're trying to
1:03:13
have out there.
1:03:13
SPEAKER_00: I mean, there is something to be said about.
1:03:16
SPEAKER_00: occupying a character,
1:03:17
SPEAKER_00: whether it is that alter ego,
1:03:19
SPEAKER_00: which there's that great book by Todd Herman,
1:03:21
SPEAKER_00: Alter Ego,
1:03:22
SPEAKER_00: that you can look at.
1:03:23
And I encourage people,
1:03:24
it's an interesting look at sports psychology primarily.
1:03:28
SPEAKER_00: But occupying that character, having those core stories,
1:03:32
SPEAKER_00: So that way also,
1:03:33
SPEAKER_00: if you have,
1:03:34
SPEAKER_00: one of the nice things about having an exaggerated version of yourself,
1:03:37
SPEAKER_00: like a character of yourself,
1:03:38
it's actually a lot easier for marketers to operate in the
1:03:42
character of you than to
1:03:44
SPEAKER_00: really operate as you when they create content.
1:03:47
SPEAKER_00: What are your strongly held beliefs that they can anchor to?
1:03:51
What are the things that you are very pointed about that you
1:03:54
are nearly absolutist about?
1:03:56
SPEAKER_00: Those create the boundaries that have, that create punch
1:04:00
SPEAKER_00: in your marketing rather than sort of saying,
1:04:03
SPEAKER_00: well,
1:04:03
you have to run everything by me because I got to download my
1:04:07
most recent thought
1:04:08
SPEAKER_00: process on all of that.
1:04:10
SPEAKER_00: And it's constantly changing.
1:04:12
SPEAKER_00: And well, I don't really tell that story.
1:04:14
SPEAKER_00: No, give us your core five to 10 stories.
1:04:18
SPEAKER_00: Give us your strongest held beliefs and we can start working from there.
1:04:22
SPEAKER_00: That is what has made it easy to work with some firm owners in the past.
1:04:25
SPEAKER_00: And the other side,
1:04:26
SPEAKER_00: what has made it difficult to work with some as well,
1:04:29
SPEAKER_00: where they're always in flux.
1:04:31
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, just hold your center for a little while for me.
1:04:35
If you hold that center and stay true to hold the random
1:04:38
consistency there.
1:04:39
SPEAKER_00: And even the storytelling thing,
1:04:41
Why were some of us so furious about Khaleesi's turn in
1:04:45
Daenerys Targaryen's turn
1:04:47
SPEAKER_00: in season eight of Game of Thrones?
1:04:49
Because it didn't seem like it was full realization of a core
1:04:53
story for her.
1:04:54
SPEAKER_00: It was a rushed to the finish line.
1:04:57
SPEAKER_00: Well,
1:04:57
this is what we've got to do in order to have this outcome as
1:05:01
opposed to this is
1:05:02
SPEAKER_00: who this is.
1:05:03
SPEAKER_00: So this is how she fits.
1:05:05
SPEAKER_00: This is how this story would go for her.
1:05:07
SPEAKER_00: I did it.
1:05:07
SPEAKER_00: I kept the Game of Thrones thread alive, Tiff.
1:05:11
I know we're really coming back to that I which I guess like I
1:05:15
read about George RR
1:05:16
Martin and his a little bit like few articles not like I don't
1:05:20
know I think I read
1:05:21
the first like three Game of Thrones but he's a very much like
1:05:25
I think he called
1:05:26
himself a gardener as a writer and basically what he would do
1:05:29
he wrote seat of his
1:05:31
pants like free writing and he would plant things and just let
1:05:37
them grow like
1:05:38
SPEAKER_01: pairing characters or situations and like
1:05:43
SPEAKER_01: And he talks about why he hasn't been writing the next book.
1:05:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:05:46
SPEAKER_01: And it's because like the garden got a little out of control for him.
1:05:49
SPEAKER_01: I think he literally said that like the garden became unmanageable.
1:05:52
Like there are so many threads that came up and like he was
1:05:55
trying to like fix them
1:05:56
SPEAKER_01: and intertwine them.
1:05:58
And I feel bad for those dudes who made that show because I
1:06:00
think George RR Martin
1:06:01
SPEAKER_01: told him how it was going to end.
1:06:03
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
1:06:04
SPEAKER_01: And it ended with Daenerys turning and becoming evil,
1:06:08
SPEAKER_01: which,
1:06:08
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:06:08
SPEAKER_01: it makes sense when you,
1:06:10
SPEAKER_01: in hindsight,
1:06:11
SPEAKER_01: but there were not enough clues.
1:06:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:06:13
SPEAKER_01: And there was not a progression.
1:06:15
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:06:15
SPEAKER_01: I think there were definitely more clues in the book,
1:06:17
SPEAKER_01: but I'm just going to be straight with you.
1:06:20
SPEAKER_01: Like I felt like the show was better until it wasn't.
1:06:24
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, that wasn't my funnest read, you know?
1:06:28
SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, it's a lot.
1:06:29
SPEAKER_00: I mean, look, I can take a good long read that those were a lot.
1:06:32
SPEAKER_00: I have not read them personally, partially because I got at it late.
1:06:37
But yeah,
1:06:37
that whole what's the actual intrinsic character motivation
1:06:40
that build up,
1:06:41
it's
1:06:42
SPEAKER_00: There's even a lesson there in the idea of process versus outcome.
1:06:46
They were trying to rush to get the outcome and walked away
1:06:50
from the process to
1:06:52
SPEAKER_00: actually get there.
1:06:53
SPEAKER_00: And we see that in the attempts to be successful left and right.
1:06:56
SPEAKER_00: People are like, I want to be a social media star.
1:06:59
SPEAKER_00: You had better love observing trends.
1:07:01
SPEAKER_00: You had better love delivering hot takes.
1:07:04
SPEAKER_00: You had better love development of video content.
1:07:07
SPEAKER_00: Like there are things that you got to love if you really want that.
1:07:10
SPEAKER_00: Cause you might be excited for it for a couple of weeks and you're like,
1:07:13
SPEAKER_00: that would be so cool if this was the outcome here.
1:07:16
SPEAKER_00: But if you don't stick with it, cause you kind of hate how it's created.
1:07:20
SPEAKER_00: That's going to be a problem.
1:07:21
And even like the show runners of Game of Thrones,
1:07:23
they wanted to move on to other projects.
1:07:25
That was part of the reason they pulled the ripcord on that
1:07:27
because they were
1:07:28
SPEAKER_00: supposed to be nine or even 10 seasons of the show.
1:07:30
SPEAKER_00: And they pulled the ripcord.
1:07:31
SPEAKER_00: They're like,
1:07:31
SPEAKER_00: we want to go play in the Star Wars universe,
1:07:33
SPEAKER_00: a bunch of stuff that never ended up even happening for them and said,
1:07:37
SPEAKER_00: we're done with this process.
1:07:38
We just want the outcome of,
1:07:39
look,
1:07:39
we're the show runners of Game of Thrones.
1:07:41
SPEAKER_00: Like, man, well, look how that ended up guys.
1:07:45
You know,
1:07:45
there are only,
1:07:46
like,
1:07:46
a few successful,
1:07:48
like,
1:07:49
showmaker pairings.
1:07:50
SPEAKER_01: R.A.J.
1:07:51
SPEAKER_01: and Silent Bomb.
1:07:52
SPEAKER_01: Consistently successful, right?
1:07:54
SPEAKER_01: Let's be honest.
1:07:54
SPEAKER_00: Two of the best to ever do it.
1:07:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:07:57
SPEAKER_01: And then the Coen brothers.
1:07:59
SPEAKER_00: You know, they broke up, though.
1:08:01
SPEAKER_00: No.
1:08:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:08:02
SPEAKER_00: The last two movies.
1:08:03
SPEAKER_00: I don't like that.
1:08:04
SPEAKER_00: They broke up.
1:08:06
SPEAKER_01: Like Brewster Scruggs and True Grit, they broke up?
1:08:09
SPEAKER_01: Why'd they break up?
1:08:10
SPEAKER_00: No, no.
1:08:10
SPEAKER_00: So for the most recent movie, one of them made was called Honey Don't.
1:08:14
SPEAKER_00: And then I can't remember the one right before that,
1:08:15
but the last three projects that came out of the Coen's writ
1:08:18
large are with them as
1:08:19
SPEAKER_00: separate directors.
1:08:21
And they're not as good,
1:08:22
by the way,
1:08:22
but that's another,
1:08:23
that's a sidebar.
1:08:24
SPEAKER_01: Well, everyone has to move on sometime.
1:08:26
SPEAKER_01: Are they like brothers though, right?
1:08:28
SPEAKER_00: They're brothers.
1:08:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:08:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:08:29
SPEAKER_00: The same way they're like the Safdie brothers are actually brothers.
1:08:31
SPEAKER_00: The Duffer brothers are actually brothers.
1:08:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but those two pairings I mentioned, they did all right.
1:08:37
The rest kind of like,
1:08:39
like,
1:08:40
again,
1:08:41
like the Duffer brothers really did me dirty.
1:08:43
SPEAKER_01: That Russian guy, I don't even remember his name, but he was so great.
1:08:46
SPEAKER_01: I can't believe they killed him.
1:08:47
SPEAKER_01: But anyway,
1:08:48
SPEAKER_01: we're going to have to wrap this up a little bit because I'm going to get
1:08:51
SPEAKER_01: downstairs.
1:08:52
SPEAKER_01: I might work on another nap.
1:08:53
SPEAKER_01: Actually, no, I got work to do.
1:08:57
SPEAKER_00: Everyone should know.
1:08:58
SPEAKER_01: I got to do today.
1:08:59
Coming into this,
1:09:00
Tiff was like,
1:09:00
we'll record for like 45,
1:09:01
maybe 30 minutes.
1:09:02
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, well, yeah, cool, cool, cool.
1:09:05
SPEAKER_00: But we just haven't seen each other in a while.
1:09:07
Like last time we saw each other,
1:09:08
we were hanging out in Winchester,
1:09:10
right?
1:09:11
I still have photographs I really love from that little town
1:09:13
that I took while I was in.
1:09:14
SPEAKER_01: Oh, no, we saw each other at the League Launch Hour, though.
1:09:17
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:09:18
SPEAKER_01: Vision is history.
1:09:20
SPEAKER_01: And then Warrington, maybe that's what you're talking about.
1:09:22
SPEAKER_00: I mix up those two places all the time.
1:09:24
SPEAKER_00: It starts with a W, and it's about 40 minutes away from me.
1:09:27
SPEAKER_00: So, you know.
1:09:30
SPEAKER_01: I was remarking anywhere you are in Northern Virginia,
1:09:33
SPEAKER_01: you are precisely an hour away from Dulles or Reagan,
1:09:37
SPEAKER_01: like wherever you are.
1:09:39
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter if you're close to it or far from it.
1:09:41
SPEAKER_01: You're still an hour away from it somehow.
1:09:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, fair enough.
1:09:45
SPEAKER_01: But anyway, well, it was nice catching up and talking with you.
1:09:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm glad I got a chance to talk about Pluribus.
1:09:51
SPEAKER_01: I can't believe it's going to be like two years.
1:09:54
SPEAKER_01: I can't.
1:09:54
SPEAKER_00: I try not to think about it.
1:09:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to have to like not die in two years.
1:09:59
SPEAKER_01: I don't know how long I can keep this going.
1:10:01
SPEAKER_01: Like how long can I stay alive?
1:10:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm so concerned that if the ending note here is like,
1:10:06
SPEAKER_00: guys,
1:10:07
SPEAKER_00: I have to try and not die for the next couple of years.
1:10:09
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, Tiff, you have a young son.
1:10:11
SPEAKER_00: You have Yuna.
1:10:12
SPEAKER_00: You got Charles.
1:10:12
SPEAKER_00: You got dogs that need taken care of.
1:10:16
SPEAKER_01: Look, I could trip and fall down the stairs at any moment.
1:10:19
SPEAKER_01: Like knock on wood, I don't.
1:10:21
SPEAKER_01: Like, so I'm just saying Vince Gillian, hurry up with Pluribus.
1:10:24
SPEAKER_01: I may not have much time left.
1:10:26
SPEAKER_00: If anyone knows either Vince Gilligan or Willie Nelson,
1:10:28
SPEAKER_00: can you get this episode in their hands for us,
1:10:30
SPEAKER_00: please?
1:10:33
SPEAKER_01: Not Willie.
1:10:34
SPEAKER_01: I don't want him to hear that and feel bad.
1:10:36
SPEAKER_01: He's going to be like, oh, shit, Tiffany.
1:10:40
SPEAKER_00: Or maybe he'll take your advice and cool it for a little bit, you know?
1:10:43
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's what he needed to hear.
1:10:44
SPEAKER_00: He needed that permission all along.
1:10:47
SPEAKER_01: Well,
1:10:47
SPEAKER_01: and maybe like Beyonce and Miley can just like,
1:10:50
SPEAKER_01: if you want to just like donate or something,
1:10:52
SPEAKER_01: like if you're going to give them money,
1:10:53
SPEAKER_01: just give them money.
1:10:54
SPEAKER_01: Don't make me listen to that song.
1:10:56
SPEAKER_01: It's not good.
1:10:58
SPEAKER_00: By the way, good luck on putting a title on this podcast episode.
1:11:01
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm going to have to get creative with it.
1:11:04
SPEAKER_01: I was already thinking about that.
1:11:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:11:06
SPEAKER_01: It's something we're going to have to workshop, I think.
1:11:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:11:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:11:10
we'll get it fortunately i finally got caught up so i'm an
1:11:14
episode ahead so the
1:11:15
episode that's posting today isn't this one because there are a
1:11:18
few times like i
1:11:19
recorded and then it's posted so we're i think this one will go
1:11:23
up next week so i
1:11:23
got a little time awesome there we go well good luck with it
1:11:26
tiff it's good talking
1:11:27
SPEAKER_01: with you yeah it's good talking with you too and well okay hold on as is
1:11:31
traditional charlie why don't you tell people where they can
1:11:34
find you and learn
1:11:34
SPEAKER_01: more about you
1:11:35
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:11:36
SPEAKER_00: If you have made it to minute 83 of this podcast, first off, I love you.
1:11:41
SPEAKER_00: You're an amazing person.
1:11:42
SPEAKER_00: You're probably very attractive and extremely humorous.
1:11:46
SPEAKER_00: So really proud to be associated with you.
1:11:49
SPEAKER_00: But if you're interested in potentially working together,
1:11:51
SPEAKER_00: I have two companies,
1:11:52
SPEAKER_00: Law Firm Alchemy,
1:11:53
SPEAKER_00: which is a coaching organization for law firm owners,
1:11:57
SPEAKER_00: focusing on the entrepreneurial skillset,
1:11:59
SPEAKER_00: leveling that up to become a better business owner,
1:12:01
SPEAKER_00: a better marketer,
1:12:02
SPEAKER_00: a better leader.
1:12:03
SPEAKER_00: And you just kind of enjoy this whole thing a whole lot more.
1:12:06
SPEAKER_00: Now,
1:12:06
SPEAKER_00: if you'd love someone to be producing your email newsletter,
1:12:09
SPEAKER_00: my company Red Cracking Creative,
1:12:12
we will take care of your weekly email newsletter from start to
1:12:15
finish for you,
1:12:16
SPEAKER_00: all the tech setup.
1:12:17
SPEAKER_00: We will help clean your list.
1:12:19
SPEAKER_00: We do all the writing for you.
1:12:21
SPEAKER_00: We press send.
1:12:22
All you need to do is let us interview you from time to time
1:12:26
and approve the
1:12:27
SPEAKER_00: content that we send over to you.
1:12:28
SPEAKER_00: We make it soup to nuts, simple as anything.
1:12:31
SPEAKER_00: So if you're interested in either one of those,
1:12:33
it's lawfirmalchemy.com or redcrackencreative.com or just find
1:12:37
me on LinkedIn and
1:12:38
SPEAKER_00: shoot me a message.
1:12:39
SPEAKER_00: We'll get the conversation started.
1:12:40
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate that, Tiff.
1:12:42
Yeah.
1:12:43
SPEAKER_01: All right.
1:12:43
SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks everyone for listening.
1:12:45
SPEAKER_01: This was the longest episode in Sharp Strategies history.
1:12:49
SPEAKER_01: I don't even have to look it up.
1:12:50
SPEAKER_01: I just know.
1:12:51
SPEAKER_00: And Tiff,
1:12:53
SPEAKER_00: if anyone outdoes me on length of episode,
1:12:55
SPEAKER_00: you get me back on this show and I will beat them.
1:12:58
SPEAKER_00: I want that on the record right here, Tiff.
1:13:00
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
1:13:00
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if David's up to it.
1:13:02
SPEAKER_01: I have him coming on pretty quick,
1:13:04
SPEAKER_01: but I can talk to him and be like,
1:13:05
SPEAKER_01: David,
1:13:05
SPEAKER_01: you got to outdo Charlie.
1:13:06
SPEAKER_01: We talked for almost two hours.
1:13:08
SPEAKER_01: It was nice talking with you, Charlie.
1:13:15
SPEAKER_01: Well, I usually more formally wrap this up, but now I'm tired.
1:13:20
SPEAKER_01: I worked it out.
1:13:21
SPEAKER_01: I win.
1:13:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm done.
1:13:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm done.
1:13:23
SPEAKER_01: This is the last thing I'm doing today.
1:13:24
SPEAKER_01: No, everyone.
1:13:26
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening.
1:13:27
SPEAKER_01: We'll talk to you next time.
1:13:28
SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much, Charlie.
1:13:29
SPEAKER_01: Bye.
1:13:30
SPEAKER_01: Bye.