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Davina Stanley on Communications Strategies for Better, Faster Decisions · Expertly Said

• Kristen Sweeney: My guest today is Davina Stanley, Director at Clarity First. Davina helps executives communicate high quality insights to get better, faster decisions. Through structured thinking techniques and stakeholder management strategies, her clients effectively connect with and engage with internal stakeholders like senior leaders and boards. She works with C-suite leaders, product managers, and executives across disciplines such as finance, project management, and technology to communicate with greater clarity and surface the big idea they were struggling to articulate. Davina has over 25 years of experience coaching clients around the world and a journey that started on an Australian potato farm and goes from kindergarten teacher to McKinsey consultant. Davina, welcome to the show. Davina Stanley: Thanks for having me, Kristen. Lovely to see you. Kristen Sweeney: Yes, I'm really excited for this conversation when I came across you using the phrase, the big idea. Obviously, I did a little happy dance. Is that something we're going to get to later in our own conversation here? ⁓ So a lot of really interesting details that we could dig into in that bio we heard. Tell us a little bit more of the how and the why, this origin story and this really unique journey that you've Davina Stanley: Yeah. Well, I think I've always enjoyed solving problems and I like a challenge. So I've just followed my nose a bit. I grew up, like you said, on a potato farm in country Australia. And I grew up thinking anything was possible, but had no idea what that was. And my mother was a teacher. My grandmother and my aunts and all were teachers. So I kind of kicked off with kindergarten teaching because it was tangible, you know? And I wanted to get off the farm, right? And then, you know, I didn't do that for very long and moved into corporate communication by accident, truly by accident. There was a financial, the 1987 financial situation in Australia, the late 80s was really, really tough and so I was determined not to go back to the farm so I got a job as a secretary in a corporate communication role in a large pharmaceutical chemical company and so I just, I didn't care what it was, I just wanted a job that I could do to work out what was next, you know, because I decided I didn't want to teach so Kristen Sweeney: Okay. Davina Stanley: I've just got to pay my rent and survive and then I'll work out what's next and you know in this process I got married and I started doing a lot of writing at work and I'd learned to write at Teachers College too, a wonderful ⁓ children's author taught me to write as part of our program and so it turned out could write and so I ended up sort of going down that path. And then, you know, I married someone who likes an adventure. So we moved to Hong Kong in our mid twenties, right? And this is, you know, I had never been overseas before I'd met Andrew. This was very big for me. So we moved to Hong Kong and ⁓ I was doing a job in public relations, which I really didn't love at all. And he saw an advertisement for a firm called McKinsey, which is a top tier, if some would say the top tier management consulting firm. And he thought, ⁓ that looks good. I'd love to work for them. And he had a look at Kristen Sweeney: Amazing. Davina Stanley: and said ⁓ no that's for you and so I had a look at the advertisement it was a communication specialist role and you know given my background I was like ⁓ that looks interesting what's management consulting what's McKinsey you know I had no idea and I thought well that sounds fun okay I'm nothing to lose I'm gonna apply for that and I got the job Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Davina Stanley: So that started me then on a path of bringing the teaching together with the communication and I'd been back I went back to school in the middle of all of this I hadn't actually finished when I joined McKinsey but to study corporate communication so I was in the midst of all of that and bringing all of that with me and so you know I've come with this very unusual background to that firm but I think I just came at things from first principles you know they'd asked me questions in the interview process and I was thinking about well the supply and demand of potato farming you know I could answer it in very basic ways because I understood business at that very basic level so anyway so I joined them and then the adventure continued with my husband and I worked for them in Hong Kong we moved to New York we moved to Tokyo and so I freelanced for the firm for a long time through these sorts of places back to Australia and now here and permanently I want to Kristen Sweeney: Yeah Sure Davina Stanley: say in the US, know in Seattle and have just built a practice on the back of that using you know enjoying problem-solving, enjoying helping people, finding new and interesting ways to help people communicate with greater clarity and insight even more importantly than clarity I think. Kristen Sweeney: I love, thank you for sharing that journey. A couple of things that really stuck out to me. The first is I love your framing of it as an adventure. And I think that it is so ⁓ illustrative of the power of narrative, right? I know for myself, ⁓ the corporation that owns my business, Every Little Word is called this Renaissance Woman because at the time I started it, had... you know, several different careers going simultaneously. And I think there have been times when I've maybe thought, ⁓ that journey was, you know, a little all over the place, or I had a whole career in theater. So when I moved into the business world, I felt behind or things like that. But I think in retrospect, you can also look at, can also frame it as there's such a natural extension. ⁓ Davina Stanley: Mm-mm. Mm-mm-mm-mm. Kristen Sweeney: And it's unique and different and helps me bring that perspective. So, ⁓ really appreciate the way that you framed that up. And also thinking the, the benefit sometimes of like, not, not knowing that the thing is a big deal. I'm like, sure for me. Right. ⁓ Davina Stanley: Hmm, yeah. Yeah. I didn't know how big a deal it was. I really wanted the job though because I thought it was a big deal for me because it was just so interesting, right? Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Right. Davina Stanley: I had no awareness of things like, ⁓ so the Singapore Stock Exchange didn't just evolve naturally, organically. There's strategy involved in that, and there are ways of thinking about strategy and ways of reorganizing these big things. So I had no awareness of all of that. I just thought it was fabulous. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. And the other thing that's so interesting is you talked about that kind of bringing that business acumen. That's something we've heard from a number of guests on this show of talking about for communications leaders, especially in-house communications leaders, the need to have that. hire business acumen to be more strategic, to have a better seat at the table. And interestingly, although the scale of my company is much smaller than that of many other folks, I too worked with a management consulting company for a long time ⁓ and own a business. you know, I talk about my P and L all the time. These are things I'm thinking about constantly. Yeah. Yeah. Davina Stanley: Hmm. Yeah, that's right. Yes! Correct! Once you have employees absolutely yes! Kristen Sweeney: but also the idea that that experience can translate, right? That your experience on supply and demand of a potato farm. And so I do wonder how many folks have exposure to that in ways that may be less conventional that they're not thinking about where it's like, I do know something about the way this works. just haven't, maybe I don't know the acronyms yet or I haven't thought about how to apply it. Yeah. Davina Stanley: Yeah. Yeah, they're not thinking about yes. yeah yeah yes yes and I think to having been a consultant for so long now Truly it was something I could bring with me on the adventures with my husband and you know I'm freelance back to McKinsey for a long time like 15 years I think I work for them all together But then built my own practice so you're constantly coming into a new environment and having to very quickly Understand the people and relate to the people and bring something useful to them You know very very quickly so as you get older that becomes easier I think you've just seen so many different situations that you can think laterally and help you know just be helpful be useful. Kristen Sweeney: Yes. Yeah and of course yeah and all that experience of course also builds your own confidence in yourself and your abilities and you know. Davina Stanley: Yes, yes, when you've trained lawyers. how to write legal advice so they can get their advice across in 30 seconds. And you've stood in front of partners and they've litigated your method with you. It's fun, like you've just got to take it on as sport. And my colleague and I taught lawyers for five years in how to get their advice across in 30 seconds and there were a thousand or so of them. So I think I ran 300 whole day workshops for this firm over a number of years, it was long. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Wow. Davina Stanley: You know we were getting a bit cocky by the end of it because we thought ⁓ we've got this down You know we've rewritten legal advice. We've done all sorts of things you know and then because it was a compulsory program We got to the end of the program and you're getting the people who don't want to be there who really don't want to be there and so it gets harder and we were like what's going on and then we you know we worked it out and one of my final workshops in that sort of rollout phase for them I remember a gentleman who was you know a big walrus of a fellow I think he might have been the most profitable partner in the firm. You it's sort of very comfortable in his own skin you know very happy to sit at the back of the room with his back in her arms crossed over his belly and just look at you and He sort of said in our pitching process, you know, but what if we don't want to be clear as I ⁓ interesting Okay, so then I got him in one of these last workshops, right? And so here we are litigating the method because we're having some fun with it and we're having lots of banter and laughing and I knew what was going on but we're making fun of it and then he you know sees phone goes under the desk and then he gets a phone call and he's like I'm so sorry Devon I've just got to go and deal with something I've got an emergency right and the HR person was prepared for this because he'd been in the room too like he knew what was going on at the end of this program and so Mike was out in the hallway he'd excused himself earlier just waiting just waiting for this chap to come out and so Mike said to him so you've got your secretary to call you huh and he's like ⁓ yes well back you go then no sorry the chairman said you're going to be here and you're going to be here back in right and so he went back in and he stayed all day we had such a lot of fun and then he wouldn't leave he was there for an hour after the day finished he's like ⁓ this is actually really good this is fantastic Kristen Sweeney: Ha ha ha ha! Gosh. Ha ha ha! Davina Stanley: So once you've done that it's like okay game on all right. Yeah, yeah Kristen Sweeney: Yes, yes, yeah, I know what you mean. Those kind of like hard nuts to crack and once you get a few of those folks to open up, you're like, all right, I'm not afraid of this anymore. We're all lonely people, yeah. Davina Stanley: Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. Kristen Sweeney: So I want to transition a little bit into hearing more about the specific work that you do. You've talked about ⁓ helping your clients create, I think it's presentations that are fast to prepare and easy to approve, and specifically for these internal audiences. So we're not talking about external communications ⁓ for senior leadership and boards in some cases. Davina Stanley: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mmm. Mm, mm. Kristen Sweeney: Can you tell us just a little bit more about the scope of what you work on and what are the challenges, especially when folks are trying to communicate with these stakeholders? Davina Stanley: Mm-hmm. Yes, so I think that the first thing you've got to do is work out what outcome you need. So doesn't matter if you are a graduate communicating to your manager or you're in the C-suite communicating to the board, you've got to get very, very clear about the outcome you need from your communication and from your specific audience too. right and so I have a way of just helping people write a sentence down that says you know as a result of this let's say it's a presentation it might be a meeting that you need to speak in it might be a report it might be any kind of communication really but something you've got to think about as a result of that I need who to do what. and drilling quite deeply into the who because very often people are presenting to a steering committee where you've got people from all sorts of backgrounds or to a leadership team or it might be they just need to think deeply about a particular person too. So you've got to think carefully about who is it in that group. that is going to be the most influential in your decision and what are the big issues for them? What's controversial about what you might say? What's interesting about your point of view? What might they naturally relate to and what might they find challenging? And really think in a strategic way to say, okay, so I've come to this endeavor thinking I've got to write a presentation for the steering committee. Let's say that's my assumption. actually I do but before I do that I've got to speak to a couple of the people on that steering committee or some people who could influence those people on the steering committee because I need to learn more because I need to you know tackle an issue that's really controversial really challenging and maybe get someone to advocate for me in the meeting. So it could be that you come at your work thinking right I'm going to smash out this presentation but if you just do that you're going to end up on your ear because actually you haven't worked out what you need to persuade people of and persuade who of even before you get to that meeting. So this sentence is very powerful because it enables you to think okay what point in time am I focusing on? Am I focusing on those pre-conversations right now to get that clear? Then when I've had those I'll focus on the actual presentation or am I going to go straight to the presentation? it straightforward? Sometimes it is, sometimes it's not, but doing some really deep thinking at that stage is really important and I think you can do it collaboratively which is really helpful. Once you've got a framework you can work with other people much more easily. there's that. Number one, get clear on the outcome you need. Kristen Sweeney: Mm-hmm. Davina Stanley: and think about your communication strategy. And then step two is to say, okay, well, what am I going to say? And I encourage people to map that on a page. And I have 10 patterns that I think work really well in corporate and they work, I think 99 % of the time, you know, I've been, I've helped people write thousands and thousands and thousands of stories. And so I use the method that McKinsey uses called structured thinking, which means there's two basic ways to organize your ideas. You have a short introduction, one big idea, one main message, and then two different ways of organizing your ideas below. And so within that, you say, well, okay, if I've got two structures I could choose from, then what do I put in them? And so that's where I've got five patterns for each. So I encourage people then to map their messaging using a pattern as a cheat. to get it all on a page and once you get it on a very structured page then you can go to your manager and say I think I know what I need to say to the steering committee can you just have a quick look and it's quick. for them to review because they can see you've just sent them one page, know, given them your what you think your outcome needs to be. You've given them the one pager, they can review it in 15 minutes and you know, ⁓ no, no, no, look that I'm sorry, that's not the direction we need to go. I really think you need to take it this way. Actually, some things have happened since I asked you to prepare this presentation that you need to know about. That's why here, here you need to know, or they might say this is heading off in the right direction. That's great. But I think you need to up level these ideas a bit more and look I just you I'd reframe it a bit like this but generally it's great so just accommodate these thoughts off you go or you might have a number of stakeholders that you need to get input from and so you give each of them that one pager and say can you have a look and they come back with their comments they can come back to you quickly one of the big challenges with preparing presentations is people prepare the presentation. right and whether it's a written report or a presentation they give it to their leader or their stakeholders or both and they say okay and you know the leaders open it up and they think okay you know Mary spent a lot of time on this and so I need to do it justice I need to find some real time to review this and they're back to back with meetings and they think okay I don't want to let Mary down so I'm going to do this properly and I'll get to it in a couple of days and you know momentum gets lost and then you know the boss realizes Mary's meeting is in three days time I better look at that so what happens Sunday night one evening maybe early in the morning if they're an early bird really early for some people they get out the presentation they have a look at it they can't just call Mary because it's out of hours And so they have a good look at it and think, okay, well, I'm to have to rewrite it because Mary's missed the point or Mary's buried the lead on page 37 and got to bring it forward or whatever. But they get into it. And what happens when you do that is you edit the detail, you edit, you rewrite because you look at, you've got to make it neat so you can understand it. Right. So you end up with this cycle that the leader ends up doing the work for Mary which nobody's happy about. Mary feels really sad because her work looks like it's been yeah yeah and the lead and Mary gives up in the end and just sends the leader rubbish because the leader is going to rewrite it anyway right. So that's one thing that happens. The other thing that happens is people try and do it together at once without a framework. Kristen Sweeney: Right, including Mary, yeah. I know we're going to talk about this a little bit more. Yeah. Right. Right. Davina Stanley: And that also takes a long time. And I think it's really constructive to get multiple people together. I'm convinced, I know actually, I've measured it. You can save time by doing this if you reciprocate with people, but get a couple of people together who know the framework and then do the draft together, whether they're key stakeholders, whether it's just your peers and then you send it off. you can really save a lot of time because you cut through a lot of the noise and get get to the point the right point the insightful point much more quickly you get less delays you get faster approvals you don't get these you know steering committee discussions which are all so can you just explain to me where you're coming from or what did that actually mean like what were you trying to say there and you have half the conversation gone really expensive meetings you know, spent trying to clarify what the presentation says, right? Rather than actually, ⁓ that's an interesting idea. I thought about that after I read the pre-reading when I was walking the dog and it seemed to me that that's really useful. It's a bit challenging though, how will we do this aspect of the implementation? What do you think about that? Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, now you're cooking. Yeah, yes. Davina Stanley: Yeah, now you're getting into a really interesting conversation that's really valuable and drawing out the expertise of the people in the room, right? So I think people don't realize... the value of having a really structured way of collaborating and forcing yourself to get out of the weeds up to a high level so that you can have your messaging on a page because once you do that it's super fast to make the presentation. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yes, I love I'm nodding and smiling because, you know, our work takes a little bit of a different form in my agency, but we work with executives and experts and we're often mining their insights and then translating that into primarily some kind of external communication, although sometimes internal as well. But the emphasis you've placed on the process and the realities, right? I think that often the, ⁓ Davina Stanley: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: the blame is sometimes heaped on the part where you write the presentation, right? That is so rarely the actual blocker in my experience. It's everything that comes before and everything that comes after. And if you tighten those things up, this part gets even faster and more efficient, but rarely is that the thing to begin with. If that's the thing, there's probably a lack of clarity to begin with, not understanding what the messaging is. So I really... Davina Stanley: Yes. Yes! Correct. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's quite a problem to solve actually. And you know, I have a planner that I give my clients and the idea is that I make myself redundant, right? That, you know, that I give them the bouncing ball to follow. So step one, brainstorm your ideas, dump them, do not write your document. Just get it out of your head individually or with others, right? Step two, do the communication strategy. Now those two pieces, it's just two pages in a deck that the audience is never going to see. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Davina Stanley: that you know in a two-hour coaching session that can take 90 minutes because they just haven't thought about it right and then Kristen Sweeney: Yes, yes. The thinking sometimes shows up in the doing. ⁓ You know, this is something we'll find too, where sometimes I would say in the earlier days before we got a little smarter, you know, you'd send out something like a single content asset, a blog post or an article. The comments you're getting back are like, Davina Stanley: Yes. Kristen Sweeney: make it very clear that the company doesn't know what their core message is around this. So forget this piece of content. It's never going live because you got leaders still arguing about what their point of view is. And that's not something you should solve through a blog post or a presentation. You have to solve that and then move forward. Yeah. Davina Stanley: Yes. Yes. Correct. No, no, no, no. Yes that's right but that's the sort of thing that happens too if someone prepares the whole presentation and then sends it out to review you get comments and stickies and so on but they end up focusing on random stuff. right and the author then feels like they've got to accommodate it all because this these are probably more important people than the author mostly and so it's like ⁓ how do I include Fred and Joe and Nikhil and you know everybody's points of view so you end up with this mess of accommodation that completely lacks a point of view if they don't know how to incorporate those ideas into the messaging and I come back Kristen Sweeney: Right. Davina Stanley: back to the one-pager because it's much easier to do it then because you can flick it back and say look I've heard what you've all said and I've distilled it in my mind I think this is where you're going does this now do the job once you get that right then you can actually give it to AI to create the document. So once you've laid it out as a one-pager, and this is what I'm encouraging my clients to do more and more, particularly my clients use the Microsoft suite of tools because of the security envelope around it. Some would use Google for the same reason, but they're in one of those bubbles. They can't use this content in any other AI tool. But I've come up with a script that it certainly works for me. I know in some corporates, doesn't so we've got to test it but you you say okay take this language then convert it into the presentation and you know it does all the pictures and things for you it'll give you something useful so I'm hoping AI gets better at that because It's a way in which we can save time and invest more time on the thinking piece, the human piece, know, applying the ideas to a context, being strategic in our messaging, using AI for research to get ideas for data or summary, but not for insight, not for having a point of view. Kristen Sweeney: Hmm. Right. And there's certainly a place for design forward, you know, where this wouldn't be appropriate. But I think the kind of presentations you're talking about in particular, it really is the messaging and that point of view and getting the right information that is the priority. Yeah. And to that point, tell us a little bit about what is maybe unique about an audience of senior leaders or boards that's different from other kinds of messaging. Davina Stanley: Mm, mm. ⁓ absolutely yes, yeah, yeah. don't know that there's as much as people think there is. Kristen Sweeney: Okay. Davina Stanley: Okay, so I think when you're communicating at the lower levels in an organization, you've got a more homogenous group of people because you're starting within a team and teams are more not always but more homogenous. So if you're in technology, you're talking within technology speak, right or data or quality or something. So human resources even is technical, you know, you've got your lingo, the way that you speak about HR issues. So when you're Kristen Sweeney: Sorry. Davina Stanley: junior you're working with a group of people who probably understand the content the ideas when you go further up you've got a much more varied group of people you've got decision-making groups that are deliberately dispersed or diverse right you've got different disciplines that are mentioned so if you go to a senior leadership team in a company you're to have technology human resources whatever manufacturing whatever the issue you know the relevant things are for the company so you've got experts who are really good at their area that need to also have general business acumen but so they don't come at your thing as an expert of your area so you've got to be very good at translating your thing into business. general business. Now you also have an audience the more senior people are the more likely they are to synthesize. really well so they're going to think strategically it's one of the barriers you've got to get through to be promoted to those more senior levels so a more diverse group of people who can you can be pretty confident not 100 % but pretty confident can think quite strategically and so they don't want detail they want detail in context right. So I think everybody needs that, even at the junior levels, but I think the need is more acute. at the senior level. So if you're going to be promoted from graduate and then up to team leader and keep going up, you need to have the capacity to learn that stuff. And some people don't, right? Some people don't, many people don't, only, you know, the organizations are shaped like that, aren't they? So it's a small number of people. So does that help you think about that a little? Kristen Sweeney: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right, right. Yeah, I think I like what you said around that it didn't quite go where I thought you were going to go actually, because as you were describing all the different specialties of a leadership team and it's like, ⁓ my gosh, that's like a marketer's nightmare, right? That's like the worst audience ever. We're talking to everyone. But that business acumen is that common denominator. And so I imagine that some of your clients actually need a lot of support translating their Davina Stanley: Yeah. ⁓ no you're not, no, no. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: technical or more operational in the weeds work to business impact, business outcome, business results and thinking at that level because that is the thing that the audience actually has in common and that's the sort of hat they're all wearing when they show up. Davina Stanley: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It is, it is, although when you say it's a marketer's nightmare that process that I go through at the beginning does help a little. because it does narrow the group down. So if you're asking for five million dollars for a new plant that you want to build, say, say it's an energy plant, don't know, five million dollar data center, five million is way too little for that, but let's imagine it's a component of a data center. So you've got the people in the room who've got the most interest in that topic and the most knowledge on that topic who'll be the most influential in making that decision. Kristen Sweeney: Mm-hmm. Davina Stanley: that the others won't have a point of view or won't involve themselves in the decision, a balanced leadership team will have a really good balanced discussion but you will be speaking more to you know for a big investment for a company the CFO is going to be really pivotal obviously and then you'll have people that you know have particular points of view or you'll find out have particular points of view on data centers right. So you know the technology, the data team, the manufacturing team, you work out who's most important in relation to the nature of your recommendation. So you do narrow the field a bit, it's not quite as bad a nightmare as you think. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Well, and on the flip side, these are known individuals, right? So, so often when you think about external messenger and you're thinking in terms of an ICP or a persona, set of traits that describe a fake someone that is representative, and instead you're dealing with the actual five people who can be known and so-and-so hates the color yellow and like... Davina Stanley: Yes. Yes, an avatar, yes. You are. ⁓ Kristen Sweeney: Maybe that impacts, you know, what you do. Right. But yeah. Davina Stanley: there's no choice on the colors really in these settings least not much not much but ⁓ those things are sort of removed from the conversation but I think you'd be surprised how hard it is sometimes to get to know those people though right to know their role is one thing But very often, if you think of senior communication, there are lots of layers in an organization, a big organization. So for somebody who maybe runs a team, or even a team of teams, to be communicating to the board or the senior leadership team, the top team reporting to the CEO of the C-suite, they might never have been in the room with these people before. right so they have to find out second and third hand what really matters to them and the way they like ideas communicated but even more importantly you know I think you can take on a few basics with business internal business communication and that is whether you are a graduate or you are on the board you are busy you've got too much to do you've got too many emails you've got too many things that you need to read and so you can a whole lot of ideas that people talk about in the way in which you organize communication and you know the whole idea of the hero's journey and all of these things that build towards the crescendo at the end just get them out of your brain in my opinion because what you have is a super busy audience that needs to know the answer know the insight really quickly why it matters to them they need to be able to skim the executive summary in seconds get the general idea of where it's going and know how the document is structured as a result and I mean literally within seconds if you're writing an email or you're writing a presentation to anybody you need to get the main point across in a way that's unambiguous and fast right because nobody has time yeah Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah, I love this, especially, yeah, especially in a moment where storytelling is an extremely popular phrase, right? And I think we all value storytelling. It's very integral to community and culture and certainly has a role in business. But I love that this take of like, it doesn't belong everywhere. Yeah. Davina Stanley: Right. You've got to put it. No, it doesn't. And I think it belongs actually in a fairly small number of places in business, relative. to just the everyday communication and people, you I'm in the discipline. So to me, storytelling means hero's journey and some of these other narrative techniques that come out of movies and novels and things like that where you've got an audience that's there voluntarily, that's maybe sitting down with a nice cup of hot chocolate or a glass of wine ready to sort of dive into their favorite book and they've got time and... Kristen Sweeney: Ready to read your white paper. ⁓ Davina Stanley: and they want to really enjoy it and it's a pleasure and so on. But that's not the context. these techniques can be woven in to a really tightly structured story where you might have a case study and you might bring out an example. like to use an example, I haven't used this for a while, I've got to see if I remember it properly but there was a client of mine that had a supply chain, a retailer selling ⁓ office supplies. and they had a problem in one of their warehouses where the people were receiving, the customers were receiving the wrong things, taking too long to get the wrong things. So you could tell that by saying, know, introduce the story by saying, you know, we've got a real problem in the Nebraska warehouse. I'm making this up. It wasn't an American story. You know, the delivery accuracy has plummeted by 20 % over the last month, right? And that means something to people in there and 20 % is like, ⁓ my God, that's a terrible number ⁓ my gosh but if you said look Ned from Nebraska was so cranky when he rang up the other day again he got tea bags when he ordered a television right it just like it brings humor because it's ridiculous actual story but ridiculous but it's like ⁓ you know, customer is our number one priority and you know, and Ned was one of 35 people to have an experience like this last week. You know, that's storytelling a little bit, but now you've got them hooked. Correct. It's short. And it's like, ⁓ okay. Now what are we going to do about this? Well, we've got an idea for you how to fix that. Okay. Tell me please, how are we going to fix that? Kristen Sweeney: Yes, but it was two sentences. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Davina Stanley: right? So you can use tiny ones I think in these contexts. and ⁓ look I do think there is a place for this kind of narrative storytelling in you know town halls and change management sorts of situations where you've particularly speaking to people lower down in the organization who are not into the strategic stuff they're on the shop floor or they're you know somewhere else that's more practical and you can help them really engage in things through the stories. But to me, I use a structure first way, right? Like, what's the point first? What's the outcome we need? And then, you know, can we weave Ned from Nebraska in quickly somewhere to pique people's interest rather than having the whole story and trying to hold people for a long time? Because I think that's fraught with terrible risk in a business setting. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yeah. Right, right. Right, Yeah, yeah, definitely. I hear that I'm gonna be kind of mulling over this about the role of storytelling in the right context. I know it's come up a couple of times throughout. Like you've already established that there's... Davina Stanley: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: This is a process, right? Not a presentation. It's a process. And we had a guest on recently who was talking about ⁓ scientific communications. And she was very clear. Her one big idea was that you don't write them, you develop them. Because it is all of this engagement, everything that happens before ⁓ as a part of that, and something I very much align with in terms of the work we do as well. So that requires. Davina Stanley: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yes. Yes. Kristen Sweeney: people. And I told you before we started recording, I was someone who hated group projects as a kid. ⁓ So let's talk about collaboration and how to make it ⁓ fun and invigorating and not painful. ⁓ Tell me a little bit more about the problems of collaboration and ⁓ we'll go from there. Davina Stanley: Yes. ⁓ ⁓ yes, me too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, look, I actually find having agreement around the two pages that I talked about, this communication strategy page and then the structure of the messaging, I think having agreement around that to start with makes it quite satisfying. So I think, you know, we think of fun, we can make fake fun, which I don't know is actually necessarily contextually helpful, you know, for these sorts of... Kristen Sweeney: Sure. Sure. Davina Stanley: situations but no not criticizing the use of the word fun I hear you it needs to be enjoyable right I just think about it in a different way I think about it being satisfying or enjoyable and so to me if you've got a way of doing it that you've agreed and you get together with a colleague or two and you reciprocate you must reciprocate otherwise it's just not fair you've got one person who's going to carry the load for the team and unless they've got that carved into their role you know that becomes a burden Kristen Sweeney: Yes. Davina Stanley: for them and that's not fair so it needs to be reciprocal absolutely ⁓ but it's just very satisfying to get a good result you know and I think people hate writing presentations often because of the rework and if you can collaborate live on something even if and I do this a lot with my clients where we'll have Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Davina Stanley: fairly random group of people come together in a learning setting to work on one communication we might have five people on a zoom call and four of them don't have a lot to do with the topic that we end up working on we do someone's job for them if you like but we do it with them they they still get a lot out of it because they get to learn what's happening in another part of the business and how someone else is making decisions and thinking about about it so I think the collaboration itself can be really satisfying if you just have a way of doing it together. You know? And it's not, it's positive, it's constructive rather than that, ⁓ let me look at your draft and get the red pen out. Right? Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yes. Yeah, yeah. Well, and that's something I'm curious if this is part of your process or how we've seen this be successful. again, not to like think back too much to like sixth grade or something, but at the same time, I think one of the things that I know I can struggle with still in group settings is I don't mind being a leader at all, but if I'm not sure I can be the leader and things become leader less. Davina Stanley: Yes, ⁓ very tricky. No. Yes horrible. Yep. Yep Kristen Sweeney: ⁓ That feels like a very mucky environment. So let's say you've got people, a group you're bringing together. What's the pathway to making sure, again, you don't want one person to necessarily shoulder the whole load, but someone is in charge. How do you think about that? Yeah. Davina Stanley: No. The leader. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, somebody will have responsibility for the communication. So it will be on somebody's desk. If not, then definitely pick someone, choose someone for sure. Yeah. But in terms of, you know, making the process less painful, one thing technology has enabled us to do is, you know, do it via Zoom or do it in a room. Either way, either way is good. But Kristen Sweeney: pick someone, yeah, yeah. Davina Stanley: if you are on zoom or i guess in the room too it's the same if everyone's got their laptop and they all share the document you know i think google docs made this wonderful advancement for all of us that now of course microsoft has copied because it's so awesome where everyone has access to the document so instead of having one poor person typing when you know typing in front of the group and then getting nervous about it and ⁓ i type with three fingers and ⁓ it's typo again and that's embarrassing ⁓ my goodness, you back, back, back, back, retype the word. You know that can be tedious is if everybody has their hands on their keyboards you can be working across it at once. where maybe you say, okay, let's get our first draft done and we've got three people here. We think we're going to have three sections to the story. So we agree the overall skeleton and then we take a section each while we're all there together and fill those bits in that we can do and then come back as a whole and debrief and say, okay, well, have we got each of those sections right? Have we got a complete set of ideas? Do we need a fourth limb for the story? Do we need to reorder them? so you can come and go with the group work versus everyone having their hands on the keyboard and not having some poor person you know typing in front of everybody which I'm now very good at but some people hey you know I watch in some groups with them and I'm like ⁓ can I help you please that looks painful Kristen Sweeney: I really love... yeah. Hahaha I love your attention to detail around the considered reality of folks. I really appreciate it. I think that's the empathy that is so important at communications. And sometimes that doesn't look like having a big feeling for people. It looks like really, really understanding all of those micro things that create a different charge in the atmosphere and ultimately have an impact on the work that gets done or the person who Davina Stanley: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: you doesn't feel comfortable enough to speak up and that, then later has, you know, a bunch of ideas they want to share or that get missed entirely. So I really appreciate that. Yeah. Davina Stanley: Yeah, yeah, yes, yes, and yeah, no, it's a fun, it's a really enjoyable thing that I do, you know, and I love. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Davina Stanley: you know if I've got a group of people that I'm working with I'll break them into small groups and get them to work on something and it's imposed on me to be able to walk in you know walk in or zoom in and very far very very quickly be able to help them navigate or get them unstuck with their messaging and so it's very satisfying actually it's really fun to do yeah Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. I have one other question, I think, before we wrap this section. So ⁓ you could correct me if I'm wrong, but I can imagine there are probably times when despite getting that alignment on the outline, the script ⁓ within maybe a team that's collaborating, but also with the higher ups, the final presentation is created and this isn't at all what we wanted. How do you help people navigate Davina Stanley: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: you I think there's probably a balance between, well, this is what it said and you agreed to it. So, ⁓ well, you know, versus you've got your leader saying, well, too bad, that's not what I want. How do you help folks kind of navigate that and find the middle ground there? Davina Stanley: But yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. ⁓ Yeah well I think you know that that can happen simply because of the affliction of time too right because business is dynamic. Kristen Sweeney: Right, right. Davina Stanley: And people's thinking evolves. And, you know, I encourage people to get their leaders involved in that strategy space early if you can and get a really good brief. I give them strategies for getting a really good brief, which is part of the problem. It's part of where these communications can come undone is you're around, trying to work out why they've asked for an update on AI or whatever the topic is when, you know, so getting a very clear brief helps minimize that. So in the process but also just saying okay all right so can you explain could you just help me understand where you think this is off base and has something shifted since we got a briefing from you on this topic and you know what is it that's changed that means that this is no longer going to fit the bill it sounds like maybe what we need to achieve has changed. And so of course when that's the night before you've got to hand your board paper in or whatever, present or whatever, that's tricky. But I think too you've got to allow yourself, okay well if something really material has shifted. Do you say, okay, well maybe part of this presentation is still useful and we change the scope and say we're back next time because there've been some changes. Do we just do an all nighter and fix it? Maybe we have to, maybe we do because the issue is so material and the very fact that things are so dynamic and so changey is why we actually just have to do that. You we have to work late to redo it. I not taking it personally if you can and just saying okay, could we just understand where we've gone wrong and you know we've tried to deliver something useful to you. But tell us what's happened. What have we missed? Why have we missed it? Has something changed? Because it may well have. Maybe the executive has had some more conversations with the chair at the board and learned more about where it's coming from, or there's been a big new development. mean, imagine all the... Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Davina Stanley: technology presentations to board the week after AI became a thing imagine when you know chat GPT came out was at 23 November 23 you know whenever or you know right now we're in a geopolitical you know drama with Iran so that had that has huge implications for a whole lot of companies so if you were presenting to another group about something that touched supply chain Kristen Sweeney: think 23, yeah. Yeah. Davina Stanley: you know, our materials are not going to get through the straight of homos. We're not going to make the deadline. What do we do? Right? We're not going to have the fuel we need to do the thing we need to do. That's just life, isn't it? Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah. What I love two things about that. So one is I think the. And this was a lesson I had to learn as a sort of younger business owner is I was so eager and we talk about like taking the invisible work and the mental load off of our clients. But there was a time where I felt like I had to read their minds. Right. And didn't I think. Yeah. Davina Stanley: Mm. ⁓ yes. Didn't we all? ⁓ Kristen Sweeney: And now I see it much more as a shared responsibility. And there was just a moment where I realized like, you know, no matter how accountable I feel for this, this is their team or their business. Like they feel equally accountable and I can and should give them some responsibility in making this successful. It is shared. So that's something that I think you're getting to, which is turn it back on them, not in an accusatory way, but be able to say like, Davina Stanley: Mmm. Yes. Yes. No! Kristen Sweeney: I need some guidance. can't just say, you missed it and send me back. You know, that's... Davina Stanley: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can't just say I need an update on X go do it. You really can't. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, right. And the other thing, I mean, there are certain, obviously certain events, like some of the geopolitical events you described, think there's a clearer this thing happened. But I myself have been and had conversations with clients where I'm getting so excited, where they're stalling, something isn't right, but it's not until they have the conversation with you that they say, Davina Stanley: ⁓ big thanks, yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: Here are four things that happened and they're sort of swirling in my brain and that's why I'm not approving this. And I didn't even realize it until I said all of this out loud. But now I think we can talk through here's what the problem is. They don't even know yet. They just have these little data points that are kind of coming together ⁓ but haven't like fully articulated into a here's the problem that we need to change. Yeah. Davina Stanley: Yes, yes, exactly. And that's just, you know, it's so tricky for everybody, isn't it? When that happens, right? But I think when... Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, and that's where think collaboration can be really, really beautiful. Davina Stanley: But I think too you've hit on something, a really important signal, haven't you? When you're not getting the responses you expect in any setting, not just preparing communication, but when you're not getting the responses that you would expect, you'd have to say, well, something's wrong. What's going on? You know, why not? Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah. Davina Stanley: and just ask the question. I had that experience recently where I was working with a senior team and the CEO I'd worked with before and he brought me in to help with his new team and we put dates out and the HR team just wasn't responding. They're not responding at all. I'm like, the CEO wants this done by the end of year. I know that because he told me. And then, but there's nothing. What's going on? The CEO resigned. they could see the problems coming that I had no way of seeing right? Yeah yeah yeah and it's like and it was in the press later on of course and it's one of those Coldplay things you know that Coldplay moment so I would have no way of knowing what was going on so you know yeah doesn't it? Yes! Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, ah, yes. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it keeps things interesting, that's for sure. Devon, thank you for joining me today. Before we fully sign off, I wanna quickly run through, I know you've been very generous in sharing your time. Our last word segment, this is where every guest gets the same five lightning round questions. Are you ready? Davina Stanley: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I am. Right now, roof instead of roof. I'm in a new place. People say things differently here. Kristen Sweeney: Alright, question one, what's your favorite word to say out loud? ⁓ okay. ⁓ I love that. love that. What's word you know from reading, but you're not quite sure how to pronounce it out loud? Davina Stanley: Now this one I did struggle with and I did prepare in advance and can I pass on that one? Is that awful? Kristen Sweeney: You can. My second pass on this one. No, it's all good. All good. What's one phrase they're saying you wish could be retired for good? Davina Stanley: to be honest. Kristen Sweeney: Because when would you ever not be? Yeah. Davina Stanley: Exactly and if you're saying that maybe you're not being. Kristen Sweeney: What's a communication practice or principle that's non-negotiable for you? Davina Stanley: getting everything on a single page, either the principles of it or the actual thing. Yeah. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: And what's the last thing you've read, or watched that really stuck with you? Davina Stanley: ⁓ I just finished reading a book by James McBride. and it's called the Heaven and Earth grocery store and for me as somebody new here in the United States I just love the language and the voice that he's using in that and somebody gave it to me and so I was inspired then I've read almost everything he's since very quickly because I just loved that voice and he talks about often African-American lives at a point in history it'll be a fictionalized story. Kristen Sweeney: ⁓ how wonderful, yeah. Davina Stanley: I think he often draws on family experience and so on and then paints a picture of what it might have been like to be a person, an African American person in a setting in the United States and I've loved it, really enjoyed it. ⁓ Kristen Sweeney: Oh, how fun. Well, a thank you to your friend. I mean, it's so nice when someone introduces you to something that really, you know, thank you for your recommendation, but that is not just something they love, but that they've really thought about it and said you would probably like this too. Excellent. Thank you so much for joining me today. If our listeners want to learn more about you, where can they go to find you? Davina Stanley: Yes, yes, yeah. So. My website, clarityfirstprogram.com. Kristen Sweeney: Perfect. All right. Well, thank you very much. Really appreciate it. Davina Stanley: It's such a pleasure, thanks for having me.