Latest / Inside The Consulting Room - Understanding the Child Behind the Behaviour / Ep 1. Empty Box Syndrome

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Ep 1. Empty Box Syndrome · Inside The Consulting Room - Understanding the Child Behind the Behaviour

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome back.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: This is Kim Lee, child and adolescent psychotherapist.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: This is the first episode following the introductory episode, which is part of the continuation of dangerous relationships.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: But this is focusing on coercion, manipulation, deception, control, and how these relational patterns manifest and how they are understood, the effect upon the recipients and the ways in which these things can change and how the recipients can recover.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm calling this episode the empty box syndrome.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: And the empty box syndrome is a concept I came up with when thinking about the behavior of someone who I think fitted that description very well, but also descriptions that I've heard from other people that have further informed my thinking.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: And the ways in which this style of behavior initially presents and how it how it unfolds.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: And essentially, imagine a beautifully gift-wrapped box that clearly time and attention has been paid to in order to present an image.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: But in fact, there was only the rapping that was of any value, and we all know what happens to rapping.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: So in a way, I use this as a metaphor to describe those people who present themselves in a particular kind of way and are used to so doing.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: Not just to you, they'll do it to others as well.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, when you come to look inside the box, then that's if of course the wrapping comes off, that you what you realize is there's such a contrast between the two things, and it's really incredibly misrepresenting and deceptive.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm using this metaphor and I'd like you to try and hold it in mind because perhaps you have met people who you would describe in this way.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's a pretty unpleasant image, but I think it's a very accurate one.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I'd like to begin with the question of how does this all start?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: And also what does an abusive and controlling relationship look like?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: For many people, the answer they would think is obvious.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's shouting, violence, threats, fear, police involvement, visible injuries, and those things, of course, do happen.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Of course they do, but they're very often not where the relationship begins.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, one of the greatest dangers is that in the beginning the relationship doesn't feel abusive at all, hence the gift racked.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: It feels exciting, reassuring, as though somebody has finally understood you.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: And they may even make declarations which reinforce this.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: I've never felt this way before, I've never met someone like you, I I I just want to be inside you, I just and all manner of things which you know in any in anybody's language, when someone throws themselves at you in that kind of way, it's going to be flattering.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: And and you'll probably believe it.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: And that this is precisely why so many intelligent people become trapped, because abusive relationships very often begin that way.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: They begin with eliciting trust.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: And that sentence is worth holding on to because I mean, let's face it, if if the relationship began with violence, you would leave straight away.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: But they begin with something much quieter.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Someone seems fascinated by you.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: They want to know everything about your life, they constantly message, they tell you they've never met anybody like you before and they've never felt this way, etc.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: You feel seen, valued, chosen, perhaps for the first time in a very long time.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: And there's nothing wrong with that.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing unhealthy about feeling that way.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because very often, really healthy relationships can begin exactly the same way.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: The difference only becomes apparent over time when something changes.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: And at first they will send you messages saying they miss you and they can't be without you, and that feels wonderful.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: But then things start to change.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: They may ask you if you don't respond quickly to a message, you know, where were you?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: They may seem to present that as a kind of concern that you're right, on the other hand, there's a much more proprietorial quality underneath that.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: They are actually testing something.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: Very often, such people will also, if something doesn't work quite according to the way they want it to, they will take a position that is quite unexpected.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: They may say, What you did hurt me.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this is important because at the time, when you hear that, when you hear that perhaps you've you've not done something which they were expecting you to do, unvoiced albeit, when there is a slight shift, you notice that there is something happens inside them.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that something will seem to take on a disproportionate quality to the event, and it will be something they hold on to.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's a marker of something, and they'll use it subsequently, I can assure you.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that something could be so simple, so insignificant, and despite your honest explanation and your apologies, it doesn't change anything because that person doesn't work on apology, they work on because that that that requires reciprocation, that requires acceptance.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: They work on control because they will experience it as a challenge.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: And they may then redouble their efforts, they may go back to they may go back to what they're used to in with you initially.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: But little by little you start to notice that these single episodes become more frequent.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: You may see them through facial expression, you may see them through changes in tone of voice, or and this is always a for me a giveaway, when the other person starts to complain about other people in their lives, when they then talk about how unfairly they've been treated, and they move from a position of what seems like attachment to you to complaining about all of the things that are happening in their lives and how badly people have treated them despite their best efforts, and they will have a great many examples, present and in the past.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: And they will talk about not being appreciated, they will talk about everything that they do, they will talk about their honesty, the fact that they are people who don't lie, how their good intentions are never really understood or never really accepted, and that people use them.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: And what's fascinating on reflection is that you see that everything they say is actually about themselves.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about other people.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that is so exposing, it really is.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: But this is this this is more to do with the kind of the the lid being off the book off the box, and and you start to see this there really is nothing inside, or nothing, nothing that's of any worth to you.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: So with this in mind, let's think some more about how these relationships manifest.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: Quite often the manipulator will uh use humor, well they call it humor, they will use instruction.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm only doing this to help you, I'm only trying to protect you, I'm only wanting the best for you.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: They will reframe your comments, they will reframe your understanding, and this is where the manipulation begins to set in.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: These are people who will begin to take control in a variety of subtle ways, and it's almost like there's a there's a there's a kind of I suppose in military terms you could call it a pincer movement, you know, but but you're sort of being attacked from all sides while still being told that you are loved.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: You will be diminished, you will be criticized, you will be told that there is a difference between how you see the world and how you should see the world, they will make observations about your appearance.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: They may say things which are in some way demeaning or in some way critical, or that you would look better if you, etc., etc.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then what happens is if you have if you have the audacity to actually question, obviously I'm using the word audacity sarcastically, should you question what's been said, then you will either get the kind of response that says, Well, I'm sorry that you felt that way, which of course has nothing to do with sorry at all, or taking responsibility, or no, no, you you've misunderstood.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what I meant, or no, that's not what I said, or no, that's not the way I am.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: You're you really are oversensitive.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's some something wrong with you because you always do this, which is an incredible brainwashing technique.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, I'm the person who knows you are once again getting it wrong, and I really feel sorry for you that you are unable to see things in the same way that I do.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: Now, that kind of behavior is well, I was gonna say it's a red flag, I think it's a whole bunch of flags frantically uh waving in the wind.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: These kinds of behaviors are more common than perhaps you might imagine, and I think what what they demonstrate is that this person's driving ambition is has to do with control.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: It has to do with diminishing your significance, diminishing your worth, reframing your reality, and effectively maintaining a kind of control that keeps you in your place.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: And your place is something which has been designed and defined by the other.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: You will also find that such people become emotionally absent, they will disappear, and they may disappear in a literal sense, or they may just simply disappear in a kind of emotionally disconnected sense.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then, if and when they return, they behave as if nothing has happened.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: You will find if you ask, well, what happened, the explanation doesn't fit the actions, and that's concealment.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: Very often, people of this people of this kind will conceal, or they will rationalize, or they will reframe, or they might even say, You're trying to control me.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so, in a sense, it's like being caught between a rock and a hard place.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's like playing chess with someone who has control over all the pieces.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: And yet, because the image of that first gift-wrapped box is so powerful, you wait for it to return.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: But believe me, it never does.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's very, very typical, and I see this in all relationships where abuse and manipulation and control are concerned.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: I've had so many people talk about how the relationship started, what it was like, and then why it changed, or rather how it changed and when it changed.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it's almost as if the person believes there was an event that created the change or triggered the change, and there wasn't.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's certainly not one which you could tangibly look at and rationally explain as the cause for change, the the the point at which the empty box became really apparent.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: It was always there, it was always going to happen.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: And if you look and if you find out in in some way or other, normally because you're told by the person what their previous relationships have been, uh how they've been, there is a pattern.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I think what's comforting about that, and at the same time somewhat disturbing, what's comforting is it's not you, it really is them.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: This is what they do, and very often they will do a kind of reversal.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, when I first met him or her, they were this way, and and then I found out who they really were, and so I left them.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, this is exactly what they are doing.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: So that kind of projection onto the other person maintains them in a victim role.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now, people like this will very often occupy a persecutory position.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: And here's a quick reference Google drama triangle, and you'll see what these terms refer to.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: I've done podcasts, but it'll be quicker for you to do that.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: The drama triangle.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: They will occupy positions of being the persecutor.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it may not be that they're persecuting you directly at that time, but they demonstrate, they consistently demonstrate persecutory thoughts and behaviors.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: They will complain about colleagues, family members, past relationships, friends, the world in general.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost as if they they they are so bitter about things, all the while positioning themselves as in some way the victim.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's all happened to me.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: That I don't know why it happened, I don't know why my friendships ended, I don't know why people are constantly angry with me, I don't know why people criticize me after all I am, etc.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: etc.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, and they sort of vacillate between those two positions.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, the third point of the triangle is rescuer.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: And the rescuer is somebody who, or the position is one where you actually believe what's being said and you're sympathetic.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's mad, but you know, if you're in it, you can't see it.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: And very often I hear, particularly in relationships where addiction is is a theme, I hear people saying it will be different this time.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that they they said they would change because that post blowout addict has gone, having been persecutory and goodness knows what else, they've moved into victim.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't help myself, you know, it's because of this, it's my illness, and so on.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then the person wants to rescue them, they want to make them feel better, and it's a great sentiment.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, give it a week or two, and the person will be back into the original behavior.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: And this in some ways really fits the idea of you know playing chess with somebody who's got control over all the pieces.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: What do you do?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you just have to kind of anticipate the next move, anticipate what might happen.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: And before too long, what happens is you stop being yourself, you stop being the person who has ideas and thoughts and wishes because you've adapted to the behavior of the other person.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: You're no longer living your own life authentically, you're living the other person's life as well.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really, really, very destructive.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: And you might even say it to the other person, it won't make any difference because they don't really care.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: But they the fact is, you will your identity will erode.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: You will find yourself asking questions.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't know where I am, I I don't know who I am, I I'm just locked on to this person who is slowly destroying me.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it may very well be that the recognition that your identity is being destroyed hasn't actually happened.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: Or at least it's on its way, don't worry, you'll get there.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the thing that we have to hold in mind is that this this process, which is daily, is something which keeps you and your nervous system in a state of anticipation.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: You you you will find that they take up so much room and so much of your internal thinking and experience that you remain in a state of constant alert.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's not good for you and it will make you ill.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: And very often people report once they are out of those relationships and they're in their recovery, the sorts of changes that they experience are quite remarkable because they can see the contrast.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: They no longer are locked on to the toxic environment they've been part of.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: They feel better, they feel physically better, they feel mentally better.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: They're still wounded and they've still got the recovery to do, and they may they may be really stuck where certain parts of that recovery are concerned.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: But I think when the person is in it, they they really they they can't they can't see it.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think the thing is this control rarely arrives in a weaponized form, it arrives in a disguised form.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's you know concern, protection, loyalty, romance, humour, blah blah blah.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: But in fact, what you notice is that the cumulative effect of these things translates into a pattern of behavior which is when you step back hard to hard to really miss because it could be that okay, there's one comment that's made, and that doesn't change very little, and and or one criticism doesn't change much, or one cancelled evening doesn't do very much, or one rewritten conversation changes very little.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: One of these things doesn't really doesn't really change much, but hundreds of them that quietly reshapes a life.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: And there's another question here, which I often ask families, who's become responsible for everybody's emotional well-being?
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because in healthy relationships, that that is something which is shared.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: But in relationships of this kind, one is left holding the responsibility for the emotional well-being of the other.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that's called adaptation, and it's one of the most extraordinary things about the mind.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we adapt, we adapt to danger, unpredictability, criticism, and to emotional climates.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: The problem is that sometimes we adapt so successfully that we no longer recognize ourselves.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: A defining characteristic of this isn't so much about obedience, it's about self censoring.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: You stop yourself, you don't mention certain things, you avoid certain subjects, you stop doing certain things.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: That the other person is critical of.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you become careful about who you speak to and what you say.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: You begin explaining yourself before anyone is asked.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: You might precede your comments with this isn't a criticism, it's an observation, which is a way of really saying, I know that if I say what I really think, you're going to have some kind of episode and I will get punished.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: So you censor, and in fact, the truth is you don't need to.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: That is a kind of quiet collusion.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I think what I find tragic and I encounter often is people saying, I don't know what's happened to me.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: I used to be confident.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: I used to enjoy seeing people, I used to laugh more.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: I don't seem to know who I am anymore.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, this this is because the relationship has diminished them.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it's done that in a in a way which has been cumulative.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Now, as always, I'm going to return to children.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because although they may never hear the words coercive control, they don't need to.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: They experience it.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: They notice who apologizes, they notice who becomes quiet, they notice who has power, they notice whose feelings seem to matter most.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: And they notice that everyone waits to discover what kind of mood one particular person is or is going to be in before deciding how to manage.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: And children become emotional weather forecasters.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: They learn to read footsteps, silences, facial expressions, the sounds of doors closing.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Not because anyone's taught them, but because adaptation has become necessary.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: This is why coercive control is never simply a relationship issue.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's a safeguarding issue.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because children do not merely witness relationships, they construct themselves within them.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: They learn what love looks like, whether disagreement is dangerous or whether their needs matter, whether peace depends upon somebody else's mood.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes what you'll find is children get older is they will express this not through words but through behavior.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: And you may see that if and say there's two children in the relationship, one may become adaptive, one may become accommodating, the other may become aggressive, abusive, violent, they may find themselves joining disenfranchised young people and becoming a member of that family.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: They may even carry some of the traits and act out some of the traits.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: And if you ask them what they think about their parents, they very rarely have good things to say.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: Beneath all of the acting out, beneath all of the distress, we have children who are being hurt because they've lived in environments which have been so disruptive.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is when for them real psychological freedom begins disappearing because their growth is being restricted and prevented.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think that what people who behave this in this way do is fail to honour their children.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: They fail to honor the fact that their children don't just internalize these things for now, they internalize them forever.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: And they will take them forward into their relationships in the future.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: And this is because they have a template for what relationships look like.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: They will have nervous systems that are set to adaptation, they will have wounds which will very probably not get healed, unless, of course, the child becomes highly symptomatic and then they come to someone like me.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: The damage that these relationships do is far reaching.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: Some of the accounts that I've heard of are simply vile.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's the only way I can I can describe them.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: And whether or not it's ethically sound, I regard some of the behaviors as utterly disgusting.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because the damage they have done and the failure to repair that damage has been monumental.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Why do I say this?
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's because I pick up the pieces quite often.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think that really calling this stuff out as it is is vitally important.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that is something I do.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: When I see these kinds of behaviors, and if I see the parents responsible for them, I do call the behavior out, I don't collude, I do say it, and I do it from a position of clinical authority and I think personal authority, because if there is a well, I was gonna say if there's a child involved, I have no choice.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, that applies whether there's a child involved or not.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: You simply cannot, I simply cannot ignore these things.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: What I here to do though is not to act as a rescuer for people, but to demonstrate that the these behaviors, as insidious and as sometimes subtle as they might be, are actually damaging people, and that simply is not acceptable.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so helping people take on the same behaviors, helping, and it's mostly women that come to me, although I and I can only think of two men where they were the victims.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: Now, it could very well be the case that there are many more, but they don't come forward, perhaps because they feel ashamed.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, but in both instances it was the case that their persecutors, and this is really interesting, accused them of being the persecutor, and the women concerned presented themselves as victims.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: So the reason I'm saying that is I I want to tr just try and offer some balance.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: People are capable of this kind of behavior, but their victims are capable of recovery, and that's extremely important because a recovering parent enables recovery in children.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to leave you with this thought or this question Am I being myself in this relationship, or have I learned to conceal myself because it's better to keep the peace?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'll see you in the next episode.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening.