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Breaking Free: How Childhood Experiences Affect the Way We Process Grief · the ACT OUT podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to the Act Out Podcast.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_03: I'm your host, Adam Tomlin.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_03: Today's guest is grief counselor and mental health advocate, Dr.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_03: Lynn Bannis.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_03: Let's roll the tape.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_03: Good morning, Lynn.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: How are you?
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm great.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: How are you, Adam?
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm doing well.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_03: This is uh this is we're recording in late May.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and uh this is like right now the end of my uh my son's preschool.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh boy.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_03: So yes.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_03: We got to do the um we we got to uh he's three, and so they had this uh they had this big like uh classroom-wide uh show earlier, and uh my son was over the end like doing circles and then just decided that he was like refusing to participate and then like tried to lay down and take a nap.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's a three-year-old.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: I love going to those things because there's always a kid that's gonna take over the show.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, and uh leave it up to the uh podcast host son to be like, you know what, I think I want to be able, I think I want to be the center of attention here.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, why not?
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um now I was kind of like looking over uh looking over your information and I saw uh part in part of your description uh something I thought was incredibly interesting.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_03: And uh that is that you're uh a a trans a transformational coach.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: Is that how you kind of yes what what does what does that mean?
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: What does that mean?
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: That means that I help my clients evaluate where they are and figure out why things don't seem like they're fitting anymore.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then we work through a process where they can get rid of all the crap that they have, excuse me, uh they have taken on in life.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_03: Shit, that's not that bad of a world.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, all right, thank you.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, let going of all those things, you know, just re getting acquainted with who they really are underneath it all, and then they can create the new life that they want.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: So the transformation is in that change to create something that will support them and that they love, and they finally have joy again.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: So I am I'm 39.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and granted, that is right around the uh the the age where you hear a lot about the the midlife crisis, so to speak.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_03: Uh there are a lot of my a lot of my friends who are around the same age, but there are just as many folks who are a lot younger than me that it appears are having a quarter life crisis almost, so to speak.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_03: You're right.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_03: Uh what is it about this time period where so many groups of people are feeling like they are kind of on the like cusp or the you know, like precipice of some kind of transformation?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think what what's happened is that since COVID, we have all been grieving what we lost.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: We had a totally different life before then.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it hasn't stopped.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: As a matter of fact, it's gotten faster.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that, you know, every minute we put on a TV or radio or whatever, there's something new, something new, something new.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: We don't call it grief.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: We think we're stressed, we think we're overloaded, we think we're we're we've lost our um interest in things, or whatever the symptoms are, it's stress.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: And we need to recognize that because stress needs to be addressed.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: It can make us extremely sick if we don't address it.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that, you know, that and the epidemic of loneliness, which it goes along with it because we've isolated ourselves, you know, you and I talking is is great.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's nice to talk to another person, but it is different than being in the same room.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and so we have kind of moved away from that being in the same room and we're on our devices, and we don't get that human, human interaction, vibrations, all those sorts of things that that go on.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so we have um, I hate to say it this way, but in a way, we've kind of stripped the humanity out of our lives.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_03: I I don't think that humans were designed, uh God, it's a loaded word.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_03: Uh humans weren't designed for this much uh overwhelm of anxiety all at once.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um and it seems like now that especially with social media and Doom scrolling, that what we do is we put ourselves in a loop where we're feeling anxious and we absent-mindedly pick up our phones, start scrolling, and then all of a sudden what we're seeing is making us feel more anxious.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_03: And so we think that the answer is more scrolling, and it just seems to be this like continuous circle.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: It is, and you know, that's just such a human thing.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: If it's not working, I'll just try harder, I'll just do it more.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, it's like finding your keys.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I want to know they're in my purse.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: I look all over, take go pull my purse apart, go look all over everywhere, pull my purse apart.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, it's not in your purse.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: No, stop and think, you know.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that's what we do.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I just wrote um a post yesterday, I think I posted it.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, two two posts on gorillas.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: I have gotten caught with in the little uh um reels on gorillas and baby gorillas, and real and I've just been fascinated at how gentle and tender those huge silverbacks are.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so I decided, you know, what can we learn from them?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I wrote a little article about what they do, how they live their lives and keep their community, and and yesterday's was something like a 400-pound gorilla, gorilla does not stop to negotiate.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he reacts, you might smack another gorilla, then they make up, then they go on with their life.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: And they keep their family intact, they're very kind and gentle.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we've lost, you know, we have forgotten.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: Very much, you know, it's it's so funny that you said that because I was watching uh something on bonabos the other day.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so bonabos are actually a matriarchal society.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_03: And so what would happen if like if you and I were in the uh in the same tribe or group pack, whatever, I can't remember what you call a pack of bonabos.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_03: But let's say that uh, you know, like you went out and then you pick some bananas, and I was I was feeling lazy that day.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_03: And so I was like, you know, I'm just gonna take Lynn's bananas.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_03: So I go up to you, I I push you, I grab your bananas and go.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_03: You're not gonna immediately uh like run after me and try to and try to beat me up and take them back.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um actually, I'll probably end up eating the bananas that day.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_03: But what will happen though, in a day, a couple of days, um, whenever I don't have my guard up, you're gonna come with three or four of your friends and beat the snot out of me.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: And and what what happens there is that um socially, I lose, I lose social status because I just got beat up by I just got beat up by by by girls and I did like and uh and there was an injustice that like that I created.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_03: So like I I am looked at lower.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_03: Now, whereas you and uh your your friends that beat me up, y'all are looked at as like strong, uh, as as beating, you know, as as beating somebody up.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: But not only that, but you also righted an injustice.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you you you righted that wrong that was done.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's how like harmony um you know is restored in that group.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_03: I I I think it's so fascinating to see how like different groups can uh you know can like can uh can work with conflict and then see how horrible humans can be sometimes.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, well, you know, and I don't I don't think we need to go around beating each other up, but I the concept of dealing with it, making amends, you know, and then moving forward with your life is so important.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: Instead, we let it simmer and fester, and we do ugly things, and you know, but there's uh there's so much we have to learn and relearn.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's so interesting to me that like you can be in that position where you're kind of simmering and festering, and you in your head know I am simmering, I am festering, I am not doing well right now.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_03: I need to be doing what an X, Y, Z, whatever.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't matter that even though you know that's what you need, like even though you know that's what you should be doing, for some reason you stay, you know, in that little, you know, in that spot.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um why do you think why why do we stay there?
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_03: And what what what do we do to get out of that uh you know, get out of that place?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: We are you know kind of wired to solve problems.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: A brain obviously is.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: And when you put emotion in there, it messes up our brains completely.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: We cannot think rationally, and we cannot make a rational decision.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so the emotions are overriding.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that's probably what happens.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: We get stuck there because we what is it called when you is it ruminate when you go over and over and over?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, something in your mind.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you see it deeper, even though your brain isn't really, you know, working on it necessarily.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it becomes a big thing.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because, oh, I have to do this.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: And my question always is, who said?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, those when I hear have to, must, ought to, should need to, those are usually signs of self-limiting beliefs.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: And we need to stop and say, Who said?
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Where is the you know, proof?
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because usually we we realize it's something that we made up to protect ourselves from what?
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's what we need to know.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: What are we protecting ourselves from?
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_03: I was literally just about to ask you where these self-limiting beliefs originate, but they're they're they're protectors.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: They're protectors and they originate when we are young children.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because we, you know, the the purpose of our brain, not totally because but it's really important, it is to protect us.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: So when something goes wrong, you know, a a something pops up that, oh, I need to do this.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so in order to stay safe, I get this, I have to um bow down to this person, you know, or a person in this position.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: And those darn things just run our lives, and and we usually aren't really aware of them.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_03: What does it take to uh to to kind of overcome those self-limiting beliefs?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: When I work with um my clients, uh, and this is a lot of work that we do because I I deal with um with loss, significant loss and and loss of identity and stuff.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, well, one I was on a on a podcast yesterday with a um pediatric physician who deals with um uh neurodiverse children and their parents.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the things we were talking about is that the parent can often say, Well, if only I knew this, I could do that.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: If only, you know, and well, you know, that comes from I think it is grief disguised as responsibility.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: And we do not understand that, you know.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um it and we just we we generalize.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: I I had a client, I always have to giggle at this, who who was talking about her boyfriend, and she said, My boyfriend doesn't love me.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't call me every night.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Oh, that's interesting.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: You told me the other day that you just love me.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: You've never called me.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: Do you love me?
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so it's oh, oh, that's pretty much of a generalization, isn't it?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, so we worked through things like it.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: I love to say, says who?
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: Let's look into that.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, where is your proof?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: And when you start to look at the proof, and where is the the the proof or the examples that show what is real truth, then we can switch to understanding that and say, okay, I am done with this belief.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: I am in you know, replacing it with this one.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you were uh talking uh earlier about like responsibility, kind of like disguised or grief uh disguised as responsibility.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_03: And that is one thing that I have noticed, like whenever I look back, that a lot of times whenever I'm like, ah, if only I would have just done this, where it seems like I am trying to take responsibility for something so that I feel like I have a greater sense of control of whatever that issue is, uh because it it would be a lot easier for me to accept that I had control of a situation and I messed up and you know it right as opposed to You bet that that happened to me.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um my husband had to have um some fairly fairly minor surgery, and we were sitting waiting for him to be called back, and he said, I I don't have a good feeling about this.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so I said, Well, you know, it's okay, we're in this together, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, he didn't make it through.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, it I beat myself up by saying, if I would have just said, okay, let's go home, yeah.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and and it's it's it's protection and it's um it's an attempt to um not take responsibility to, you know?
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of a a dual dual-edged sword.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_03: That that is true.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: That that is so true now that I think about it.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like you, you're wanting to accept responsibility, but paradoxically, you are uh you are escaping responsibility at the same time as you're trying to try to get it.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and we're just trying to make sense out of it.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's so many things that don't make any sense in our lives.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_03: Especially, you know, you were uh you know using the uh example about the the loss of your husband.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I I think that is like death and grief.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_03: That is probably the the the biggest the the biggest transformation for for the survivors.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um and it's something that completely uh your life is you know, like it would your the the day before and the day after that look completely, you know, brand new.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_03: So I can imagine that like it that is so disorienting.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's totally disorienting, and I I call it the wrecking ball of life because it's like like you said, one minute you're doing what your routine, your thing, you know, what you're used to, and then the next minute, boom, it's all gone.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: All gone.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: And from the time you get up in the morning till the time you go to bed at night, everything is different because there's this big hole, big, big absence.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: And you don't realize how much you have adjusted your life to that other person, you know, in the case of the death.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: But what if you lose your job?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Same thing.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: If you lose your best friend, you know, just on and on.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's any significant loss.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it really, really is is such a kick in the butt that you feel um, you feel untethered, you know, like you're floating and there's not nothing solid to hold on to.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_03: That's uh that that's actually that's a very powerful uh kind of like metaphor, you know, metaphor, but it's it's certainly like very true.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_03: I think back to uh my my wife lost her uh you know, lost her mother.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and she and uh and Kayla and I were you know together uh through the uh through the whole process.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I I remember those days after having to make really big, important decisions, but almost feeling like I was making decisions about monopoly money.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: You know, like it's like, yeah, sure, like it could the numbers meant absolutely nothing.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_03: I we could have been speaking in, you know, like Egyptian hieroglyphics essentially, and it would have made the you know, like exact same sense to me at the moment.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's that's your brain, we we call it brain fog.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think I said earlier that we cannot make rational decisions when there's so much emotion involved, and that's exactly what happens, and that happens to people who lose their job, widows, widowers, you know, it's just the shock of the new.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: Let's call it that, the shock of the new situation.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it it just throws our brain off, you know, it doesn't know whether to go into fight or flight, it doesn't know, you know, it it I kind of think of it as, you know how you can get up in the middle of the night and walk around your house without a light and and not crash into every piece of furniture?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, your brain's made a map, right?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: So you your brain's made a map of of what is in your house.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so this is like your brain has made a map of your life and the people around you and the things around you, and all of a sudden there's a big gap.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: So your brain is going, oh, I have to protect this person.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: What what what's wrong with this?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: This there's there's nothing here.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: We're not, you know, so it's trying to figure out how to protect you.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: And the thing about grief is you keep evolving as you go through that process.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: So your brain has to too.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then the fog, you know, continues until you really get a handle on the emotional piece, and that begins to settle down, and then you can start to to see that there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: Don't know how to get there, that's fine.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you can get somebody to help you do that.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: But um, but I think that we don't have any clue about that, and so here we are just fumbling in the dark.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I that is so true.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_03: I I think at the beginning, the that fog, there was almost the if it did feel like a protector because essentially I think that my body felt like so much grief and so much sadness that I was afraid that if I started to cry or if I started to feel that you know that that that pain of the loss, that I would never be able to like get up to equilibrium again.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: Boy, you have just said something that is I get all the time.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: It it is really a reaction that we get.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: If if I give in, it'll overwhelm me and I won't be able to stop.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I get it.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: I was there too.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: Especially with three within two and a half years, I lost my mom, my little brother, and my husband.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: So this compound grief was like, you know, you just get knocked over and then you think you're coming up, and then you just get smacked again, and you know, tough.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: That I I can't even uh uh begin to uh imagine that to like three, and it seems like the the space would be to where you feel like you're just coming up for air, and then all of a sudden you get like dunked right back down.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_03: That would that would have to be um like kind of havoc on your nervous system.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness, yes.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's like you get dunked back down deeper.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: It takes more to climb out.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: And and the tendency is just bury it, just just going on with life, you know?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: But you can't do that because we know that stress can kill us.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's been documented.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: And there is such a thing as broken heart syndrome, which can kill us.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: And if it doesn't affect us physically, it will affect us psychologically, emotionally.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm actually a very big proponent of uh or big believer in mental health and psychological health being a huge tie to physical health as well.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: It is.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_03: Prior to being able to like access uh to access my emotions, I would be sick all the time.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_03: I like constantly, I had like gotten a new phone, so I'd like wanted to uh delete uh like my all my like old text messages, and I had just like happened to see this um this like group of messages.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_03: It was like uh uh around the time that I was um an associate attorney, and it seemed like every other like couple of weeks or months there was some kind of element that happened.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_03: That was like something going, and I mean I remember the something I was like genuinely sick.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_03: It wasn't like a trend uh but and I am a hundred percent convinced that it was because I had no idea I had no concept of uh emotional regulation at all.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I just like stress, everything would just come in, and my only my the only thing that I could do would just be push it down.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: That happened to me too after um after Bill passed away.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I just kind of said, Oh, this house is too big.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: I can't take care of five bedrooms and a swimming pool and a huge yard.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I I I just can't do it.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so I did what I would never tell my clients to do, which was to make the decision to move during all that brain fog, because you don't know whether, you know, what what if I made the wrong decision?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: Then I would be really stuck.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: After about nine months, my body said, knock it off.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I was sick for three months.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that thankfully got me to the turning point because I had time to think and time to process and work on myself.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: But most of us just, like we said earlier, try harder, push harder, do more.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: Did you uh did did you get help whenever you were kind of like in the uh in these uh like kind of the grief process or were you able to to get through it on your own?
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, part of being a a certified trained coach is you have to have your own coach.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, walk your talk.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so yeah, so I I did I did have some help.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um it was tough.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's there's so much that you can't say, nobody can say anything to make you, you know, help you feel better.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so it is learning to sit with it, not push it away, let the pain let it do its thing because it will dissipate it, it will, you know, drain out, but man, it's tough sitting there with that kind of pain.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: I I can remember saying, This is so painful, it is making my bones ache and my joints ache.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how can emotion do that?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: It can.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_03: I I remember and I I I think real the the like the the biggest uh like evolution or the biggest progression of uh of my grief uh with the the loss of uh my mother-in-law is like being able to hold two contradictory feelings at the same time, um, where I can feel such a deep like hurt and loss that that she's gone, uh, but still feel like the like the the happiness and the the the the joy of like of having the relationship.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think that at the beginning I I was my brain wasn't able to to have those two things.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: And if I if I were like really, you know, if I were feeling too sad, I felt like I was like betraying all the happy memories.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I can't be happy, right?
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: It was like it's not right for me to be happy.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it yeah, I I think most people go through that, and it gets some people totally stuck because that's one of those self-limiting beliefs.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: I can't be happy because it dishonors, you know, what I'm grieving.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: And um the thing is that it grief is not gonna go away, it's with you your your whole life, and so part of what we need to learn is how to hold those two things.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I really work with clients on honoring the person or thing that they lost, understanding that's part of my life, and and I had these great things happen during that time.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: I need to honor that, and then I need to not let it um take over my life.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: I I I need to just look at it as a piece, you know, of the whole um like it, like it's a video, you know, so you've got the whole thing.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: And um and it was important to me, and I have made some decisions and I'm in a different spot right now, and it's okay to live.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_03: What I think that we have failed at as um as a society is talking about the grief cycle and uh it being this thing where okay, you feel this way one day, and then you you progress through, and then all of a sudden you're you're better.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I I think that that can make people uh feel feel crazy almost because one day you're gonna feel yeah it's not exactly one day you feel perfectly fine.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: You're like, I not like I'm over this, but like I I I'm okay now.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_03: Like we can I can cover.
• 28:32
  unknown: Yeah.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_03: And then the next day I don't want to get out of bed, and I'm uh, you know, just like crying into uh crying into a bunch of tissues all day.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, yep, exactly.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that continues to happen years later.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: You might I call it a tsunami.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the tsunami tsunami wave comes out of the blue, crashes over you, and you're devastated again.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and and the whole process is, you know, I might I might be in denial this morning, but this afternoon something happened that I I was accepting.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: And tomorrow it's different.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so it that is not linear.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's what we need to understand.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: It is not linear.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we have all those pieces that occur, but they occur in many, many, many different ways.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: So thinking that we can just go step by step by step, I'm better, is something that, you know, we we just don't understand.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, look at corporate America, and I spent a long time there.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: Three days for bereavement, you're better, get back to work.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and people say, well, you won't understand this kind of grief until you go through it.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: I honestly believe that's because I worked with people for years before this happened to me.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, Oh, I can, you know, I can handle this.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's that is so you ha you were already a coach before Yeah, I had done executive coaching um in in corporate and worked all around the world.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I I understood several cultures.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh and it's just so so clear to me that we just miss it when it comes to the important things of life that we don't teach people.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: Parenting how to deal with grief.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's all these things that and and we've got a taboo about talking around about grief.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: So nobody knows what to do.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_03: You know, uh, so whenever uh Kaylin's mom, um her we called her G, or uh Kaylin called her mom.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: I called her G.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um G was the um she was the first uh like first loss that was like or one of the first losses that was that was so um that was so heavy.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_03: I think that with with that happening, uh I had an idea of what um of what grief was going to uh of what grief was going to look like and how I was going to kind of get over it.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_03: That turned out to be uh the opposite of what actually had to happen.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that like the biggest thing whenever you are like with someone during that death journey is the you realize what is actually important.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um yes.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_03: I she uh you know she she was uh like she she it was a pretty rapid decline, but we had about a week uh a week with her.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's a good test.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_03: And um and during that time, she didn't mention a single thing about a 401k.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_03: You know?
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um whenever she was like, whenever she like she didn't really have any regret, she lived a very full life, but she didn't talk a single time about like hey, I I I got that promotion that one time, and uh, you know, the the the boss was so happy and uh man, I I made the shareholders this much extra money.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_03: I things like that seem so just trivial whenever.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, yes.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_03: How do you kind of experience something like that where you see like, oh my gosh, uh the all these things that I have been working for are so trivial.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_03: How do you work with people to like kind of help them reorient their lives into like, you know, what's what's next and what you know for them?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we we start um with clearing self-limiting beliefs, and then we move on to values because your values have changed.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: You just explained one.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: So values and behaviors have to align.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: So we work on that and and understanding values don't stay the same throughout our lives, you know.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: When I'm a teenager, I value my friends.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: When I'm married and have a new baby, that's my focus, and and that's okay, but we need to make sure our behavior is aligned with it.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that I think is one of the biggest things for us to really work on.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not easy because it's it's foggy, particularly, you know, in when you're going through all of this stuff, uh, which is why, as a matter of fact, I do not work with the early the stages of grief, because people can't make decisions.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: And my my job is to get them through to figure out who they are, unpack all that stuff, and then create a new chapter, a new life that is supportive and joyful for them that they can, you know, they can count on.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because I I study, this is silly.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's not silly, it's important.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: I I study w when they're in flow.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I get biographical samples of when somebody is in flow.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I know what they do, how they do it to at a very granular level, even, how they want to show up, you know, all those things.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: Then I also look at the environment.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: What is it that allows them to stay in flow?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: What has to be there?
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: So we use all of that stuff for them to create the what is in flow?
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: In flow, you know those times when you start doing something and you love it, you lose track of time, you're just one with it.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's flow.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so how do we how do we get there and stay there?
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: You're not gonna stay there 100% of the time, obviously.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_03: What have you so what have you discovered so far?
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh well, discovered is is that um when we do that, and I put I put people in a year-long mastermind after they've created that so they can help each other for a whole year to get into that life and make sure it sticks.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: And what I've discovered is that people blossom when they have the right environment and and the things that that feeds their soul.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: And they can, you know, they can then function in a much higher level than even before.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's such so much is aligned.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_03: I was about to say, so your environment needs to match your values, your values need to match your behavior.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_03: And so, like, kind of those, if you have like the melding of those three kind of things together, would that be kind of like what would introduce the flow state?
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, that that really, yes.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: And think about so many people, you probably felt it in um in the legal area where you would look at at your company sometimes and say, this is not meshing with me.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I am uncomfortable with this.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know why.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's because your values are getting stomped on in some in some way.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: And when that happens, you get disillusioned with your job and you know, on and on and on.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: And and we find so many people that are in that situation, particularly lawyers is one one of the arenas and and physicians, because you don't have a realistic job preview, is yeah, you know, oh very much so.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, but that's off that's off the topic a little bit.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_03: But I think that um, you know, I thought I was gonna be like a few good men all the time.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and it and it it wasn't just dissolution with my job.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_03: I got dissolution with the system that I was in.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_03: I felt like I was just a cog in the cog in the in the wheel that was just like constantly churning, and I was just putting money in somebody's pocket and putting some and like putting somebody else in jail, but hopefully not for too long so that they can get out.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_03: It it just it felt felt soul sucking.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so many people are feeling that we uh spend so much money and time getting prepared, particularly for those kinds of professions, that we feel stuck.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: I can't leave this.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've there's no way I can step out of this.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's really a dilemma.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's tough.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be willing to put a stake in the sand and say, I'm doing this.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_03: I I mean, the G G passing, uh like that G passed right around the same time that like I was feeling that, you know, that that sense of just kind of disillusionment.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_03: And so like those things just came to a head.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_03: It was yeah, it was my my my life was going to be irrevoc ir irrevocably altered, uh, you know, from those uh certainly from those events.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: It was kind of interesting, but you had said that you were doing more, I think, of the executive coaching uh before your husband passed.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: Is that kind of what spurred you to start working with individuals more or like kind of you going through your uh I I think the um going through my ordeal, um kind of you know, I kind of woke up one day and said, geez, you've got all the skills, experience, you can help people.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I I really started wanting to help um widows.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: And as I worked, I found that the other significant life changes really throw you into grief.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so anything that changes you your identity, your sense of who you are, those are the people I work with.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it executive women in executive positions is just relentless.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: And they feel this, they feel this all the time because they also have the culture thing.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so um, so that I've broadened what I do.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's interesting because yesterday I I did a uh podcast with a um pediatric uh physician who works with um neurodiversity children.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: And um and I realized that's those people need help too, you know, the same kind of help I give.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because the parents are just, you know, grief doesn't go away.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they see it every morning when they get up.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, yeah.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_03: That that that is that that is so true.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_03: I I can imagine that there is kind of a a grief for because you know, whenever you find out that you're about to be a parent, there are the like the dreams.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, the the dream movie that you have in your head.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna I'm gonna play the in the sandlot with them, and you know, you have all these things, and then you know, life happens and it's not you know that that perfect storybook uh you know kind of life isn't what's in your mind.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: There's the wrecking ball.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, and I mean, granted, I can't speak uh my um you know, my son is not like high-needs neurodiverse or anything, but you know, I I think that I I I had uh, you know, like I'm gonna do this, this, and this.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: We all do, yeah.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_03: But now, like, I I haven't done all, you know, like all those things, but you there are things that I have done that, you know, have that I never thought of like going through car washes uh all the time, like multiple times a day.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_03: Man, the kid loves car washes.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_03: But going through and experiencing those moments and seeing his joy brings me so much joy that like I can't even imagine what that life would be like, that perfect little storybook thing.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_03: That that seems seems so meh now.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_03: Like having the real thing is so much better.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: And and so then having it turn out that you're not gonna have any of that, any of what you imagined.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, so you've lost your future too.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: And working through that is is really tough.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: And and a lot of it, and and when you know, you lose your job, you lose your spouse, whatever, you get reminded of that very often because of your environment and everything, but it's not the same as what happens when you have this kind of a diagnosis and and um you know what the future is for your kid.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: You can't you can't be thinking about graduation and their first date and and them going to a dance or any of those sorts of things because your child might not be able to do that.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: So it's very hard to create in your mind a positive future, and and you are so focused on doing everything you can to be the the parent that takes care of this child.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that is true.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, because it's not only just like uh the a different life than you would have envisioned for the child, but also a very different life for for you as well, uh depending, you know, like on the needs, where you're gonna have to be doing a lot of different uh you know, you know, a lot of different things that you may not have uh necessarily thought of.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_03: I can imagine that certainly some grief would come up, uh, you know, come up at at that time for uh for folks.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so you know, it's it's it's so difficult for parents because they have to parent other kids often.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then think about the grandparents they're worried about their own child being have having a life that you would never have wanted for them, and you're worried about the grandchildren.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, when we think about this, that's true also of um just so many losses in life where somebody else who's very close to us is is also very affected.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that that is uh so true, Rob.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and we granted we had said earlier that there isn't a like a a cycle.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's uh, you know, it's not like uh oh four to six weeks, this is gonna be it.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_03: But like, how do you know or how can you tell personally, like whenever someone is at least in a stage where you can work with them, you know, because if at the beginning it'll be too raw.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: And and so um I kind of do an intake and and figure.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: And talk to them and figure out where they are with their emotions and how they're handling things.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: And and we talk about decisions they've made and how they've made it.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, so I get a really good picture of how their brain is working.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: And if it seems to be pretty steady and they have a pretty good handle on that stuff, granted, grief will sock them every once in a while.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but once they can start focusing, I mean, you know, ADHD, you know what that's like.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, I can't focus for two seconds.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's what happens during grief, too.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so when they start, and when they get to that point, and and when something in them says, I don't want to stay here.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: I know there's something more.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: I want something different.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how to get there, but that's what I want.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so that is the person that is going to say, okay, I'll do it.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's so many things I will invest in myself.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: So many people won't.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: Women in particular.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, and and I'm gonna work for this, and I am going to be happy when I get this figured out.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm there they're gonna be joy in my life.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, why do you think that it's difficult for women to want to invest in themselves sometimes?
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, we've been socialized, we don't deserve it.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we uh our our job is to give, to care for, um, to not uh not be demanding, to keep everything copacetic, you know, avoid conflict.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: All of those things are not only deep within us, but they come down through our ancestors.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: Think about what women have been through over over the eons.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: So we are wired in a way that men aren't.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, men are really wired to be the conquerors.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: In so many ways.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_03: Uh uh that uh that that conquering thing has uh outlived its usefulness like 250,000 years ago, I think.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_03: Really, really.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_03: If uh if if folks want to uh find out more about you, how can they uh how can they do that?
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I have just launched a membership site that has all the functionality of Facebook.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: So there are groups, there are I have experts that deal specifically with these kinds of things that people have to go through.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: And they are doing masterminds, they're they're putting articles up, they're they're running groups that you know, so you can get in touch with an expert in that field.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's a um, there are all sorts of articles and videos and that sort of thing.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: And the cool thing that I just love, right in the middle, I have, I know I'm crazy about this, I have created interactive tools that somebody can use and get immediate support.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if you if you wake up in the middle of the night totally distraught, can't get a whole handle, you know, can't stop crying or whatever, you can go in there and you can choose to listen to some music that's soothing, you can do some meditations, you can listen to somebody talk about something, you can you can say, I feel horrible.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so one of the tools will say, Okay, well, tell me about that.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: What do you feel, you know, and get the specifics of what what you're feeling, what you've done, what's worked, what hasn't worked, and then it will, you know, talk to you a little bit, and then it will say, here are three things, simple things that you can do right now that will get you moving out of where you are.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it's available 24-7 because so many people, you know, don't have somebody to talk to.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_00: Or they get it's not appointment time.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_03: I was gonna say, we will have the the link to that in the uh description uh to the uh to this episode.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh absolutely.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_03: Well, this has been so much fun.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for acting out with me.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: I did.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: I loved acting out.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Adam.