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Mom Burnout & Sleep Training: Why It's Not Really About Sleep · Life After Birth by Her Health Room

• 0:00
  If you're a new mom, I'm sure it's no surprise that you're tired.
• 0:03
  You probably expected it.
• 0:04
  Everyone talks about how sleep deprived you become after having a baby.
• 0:09
  What they don't talk about is how much that lack of sleep affects absolutely every single area of your life, your mood, your confidence, your sex life, even your sense of identity.
• 0:20
  And yet so many of us are just told to push through.
• 0:23
  It's part of motherhood.
• 0:24
  What are we complaining about?
• 0:25
  So in today's episode, we'll be talking about sleep, burnout, loss of identity, and the overwhelm that women feel when they become mothers.
• 0:33
  I don't want you just to cope and shrug.
• 0:36
  I want you to thrive in pregnancy, the postpartum period, and beyond, and that's what this channel's for.
• 0:41
  So hit Subscribe.
• 0:42
  Today, I'm joined by Temi.
• 0:43
  She's a sleep and postnatal wellbeing consultant.
• 0:46
  She's the founder of Gentle Baby Sleep.
• 0:48
  She works with families globally to support infant and child sleep, and she also does this while supporting parental wellbeing because she understands how important sleep is to the parents also In this episode, we're gonna talk about gentle sleep support, we're gonna talk about maternal burnout, we're gonna talk about community and the lack thereof, let's get started.
• 1:12
  Remi Mogekwu: Thank you, Temi, for joining us today on this podcast episode from Her Health Room.
• 1:17
  Remi Mogekwu: The vision of this channel is to support women who are going through pregnancy and the postnatal period ensure that they're recovering fully, so physically, mentally, and socially.
• 1:28
  Remi Mogekwu: And I think a lot of what you do fits into all three, actually, and I think we'll cover that off today.
• 1:34
  Remi Mogekwu: So Temi, why don't you tell us a bit about it in your own words and how you got into this line of work?
• 1:40
  TEMI: Yes.
• 1:41
  TEMI: Thank you.
• 1:41
  TEMI: Thank you very much.
• 1:42
  TEMI: So pretty much everything you've said, you know, work with families, lots and lots of different families, and have been doing this now since two thousand and eighteen.
• 1:51
  TEMI: And it actually came from my own experience being a parent.
• 1:54
  TEMI: When I was a first-time parent nine years ago now, I struggled with sleep, and it just had such a knock-on effect on every element of my life.
• 2:02
  TEMI: You know, apart from physically being so debilitated and tired, I also just felt like I, I just didn't feel like myself at all.
• 2:11
  TEMI: Felt-- Lost a lot of self-confidence.
• 2:13
  TEMI: I felt like I was getting it wrong.
• 2:14
  TEMI: Everybody else's baby seemed to be, you know, adapting, and everyone seemed to be getting on with it and snapping back mentally and out at the baby groups.
• 2:23
  TEMI: And I was just, you know, all over the place.
• 2:25
  TEMI: Couldn't even make it to a baby group in time.
• 2:27
  TEMI: And I just found it really, really difficult and isolating until I resolved sleep, and I, I was putting it off and putting it off and, and once we did, it was just a complete game changer.
• 2:38
  TEMI: And from there, I just wanted to help other families.
• 2:40
  TEMI: So went out to actually like train in it, qualifying in it, and been practicing since two thousand and eighteen.
• 2:45
  TEMI: So lots and lots of families all over the world.
• 2:48
  TEMI: And one thing that, you know, I, I think has come out of that is just, you know, understanding how connected we all are as mothers.
• 2:55
  TEMI: There's so many Similarities, no matter like where we're based, you know, cultures, we're all going through the same motions, and that does help with, with sort of being able to support families and understanding different experiences, but those that really connect us as well.
• 3:10
  Remi Mogekwu: Yeah, that sounds great.
• 3:11
  Remi Mogekwu: And I think I was actually gonna say, so you said your first child was nine years ago.
• 3:15
  TEMI: Yeah.
• 3:16
  Remi Mogekwu: how did you learn those techniques?
• 3:18
  Remi Mogekwu: Was it s- someone had come in to you guys and helped you
• 3:21
  TEMI: Yeah, exactly.
• 3:22
  TEMI: So, I had been talking about online how much I was struggling with sleep, and then I had these amazing community of women just sending me lots of different ideas, and someone recommended a sleep coach, and I was like,"What?
• 3:34
  TEMI: A sleep coach, sleep consultant?" There weren't many out there at the time.
• 3:38
  TEMI: This was 2018, but then I did get in touch with one, and she just like looked at my child's sleep and, you know, worked out what the challenges were and, and you know, her approach was a little different to mine now.
• 3:49
  TEMI: I've obviously come to learn so much more since then.
• 3:51
  TEMI: There've been so many new methods and techniques that have come up over the years, a lot more research.
• 3:57
  TEMI: So plans have changed a little from back then, but even then, like just what she did was so transformative, and I could just build up from that and learn more and learn more, support families in, in really kind of niche ways'cause every family is different.
• 4:10
  TEMI: So yeah.
• 4:11
  TEMI: Yeah.
• 4:11
  Remi Mogekwu: And so sleep coaching, sleep training has been in the news recently.
• 4:16
  Remi Mogekwu: Again,'cause obviously I'm an obstetrician, it's not necessarily my field, but I had had my children, it was very much put them on their back, put them on their back.
• 4:25
  Remi Mogekwu: So in the news, most recently, a lot of it has been around the advice that sleep consultants and sleep coaches are giving to families.
• 4:34
  Remi Mogekwu: What's your take on that?
• 4:36
  TEMI: Basically, BBC had launched an investigation alongside another sleep consultant who has been going on for many years about how the industry needs to be regulated.
• 4:45
  TEMI: It is one of those spaces in like the wellness world that isn't really regulated.
• 4:51
  TEMI: So for one, it's not a medical field, so that just to make that really clear.
• 4:55
  TEMI: It's more kind of, around, wellness and, and looking at, you know, very common sleep changes that can be done and, and you're looking at patterns and routines and, and just better ways to sort of optimize sleep for a family that many families aren't always aware of.
• 5:11
  TEMI: Yes, there's a lot of leaning into your intuition as well, but then not, you know, kind of then prescribing medical things or going against the safe sleep guidelines, which are there and have- You know, are recommended by the NHS, recommended by, you know, the Lullabies Trust, which is one of the leading safe sleep, charity organizations, you know, in the UK.
• 5:30
  TEMI: So, you know, we must be following guidelines, and not sort of just going off hunches or what our parents did back in the day.
• 5:37
  TEMI: We have to do things really safely.
• 5:39
  TEMI: And I think the uproar from all of this was a sleep consultant who probably was able to help many families, you know, with, like I said, these changes that where you have an understanding of where th- where things need to ad- be adjusted.
• 5:52
  TEMI: She had that knowledge, but then kind of adding in her own two cents on every baby I've known is actually magic.
• 5:59
  TEMI: You know, she isn't allowed to do that and shouldn't be doing that because real risks,, to that.
• 6:04
  TEMI: So that was what was really shocking'cause, you know, we have a responsibility in our positions.
• 6:09
  TEMI: We're working with really vulnerable, she was recommending that this baby, you know, might have severe allergies and told the mother to stop taking dairy.
• 6:17
  TEMI: Again, these are tips and things that friends, family members might kind of throw in and, and suggest, but then if you're coming from a position of sort of,"I've come into your family to advise on, you know, things to do with your child", I think where, you know recommend a GP, get a GP to, to substantiate that fact.
• 6:36
  TEMI: You know, she'd not seen the baby.
• 6:38
  TEMI: And so it was, it was all the things that any kind of, um, sort of professional sleep consultant should know.
• 6:44
  TEMI: She crossed those boundaries, and she was exposed and, and, you know, that is the danger.
• 6:49
  TEMI: Yeah.
• 6:49
  TEMI: It does kind of then
• 6:50
  Remi Mogekwu: so I watched a few of the videos and I was just like, unfortunately, this woman's livelihood is potentially, like, you know, ruined because her face is all over the place.
• 6:59
  Remi Mogekwu: But then also, again, putting my sort of hat on as a professional, you are there to support and not endanger, and it's obviously at first do no harm.
• 7:09
  Remi Mogekwu: But then I find that- The whole postnatal space is unregulated.
• 7:14
  Remi Mogekwu: So when I had my first baby, 2017 now, I struggled with breastfeeding a lot, and then she got her tongue tie divided under the NHS, which was great.
• 7:26
  Remi Mogekwu: And then we went and saw an osteopath, and then we went and saw a lactation consultant, And, you know, the fees just rack up, and then you pay for a physio, you pay for a sleep trainer, you pay for this.
• 7:35
  Remi Mogekwu: And, and none of it's regulated, and none of it comes under an umbrella because it is like what you said, wellbeing really, and not medical practice.
• 7:43
  Remi Mogekwu: And I sit at the intersection of, because women are really struggling in this period, it should be medical practice with a holistic view.
• 7:51
  Remi Mogekwu: It should be that you are helping them recover physically, but that you're also helping put things in place in a regulated manner that support their mental health and their social health and how they cope going back to work and things like that.
• 8:03
  Remi Mogekwu: So when you have parents and families come to you, at what state do you tend to find them in?
• 8:09
  Remi Mogekwu: 'Cause again, things cost, right?
• 8:11
  Remi Mogekwu: And I can imagine that, Like, anyone can get ripped off because they don't know what they need.
• 8:15
  Remi Mogekwu: You just know that you need help.
• 8:17
  Remi Mogekwu: So yeah.
• 8:17
  Remi Mogekwu: So when you find families come to you, what is their, what is their state at that point in time?
• 8:22
  Remi Mogekwu: Like, can you speak more for the mother's wellbeing?
• 8:25
  TEMI: Yeah.
• 8:25
  TEMI: So, it's actually a really crucial part of an assessment that I would do with families.
• 8:30
  TEMI: You know, I have a, a few questions that I, I ask mothers What, what, what are you feeling like?
• 8:36
  TEMI: Where are you on that journey?
• 8:37
  TEMI: We now know that the postpartum period is a two-year period about that.
• 8:43
  TEMI: Um, maybe longer.
• 8:44
  TEMI: Exactly.
• 8:45
  TEMI: Maybe longer, maybe longer for some people.
• 8:48
  TEMI: Um, and then you might find some mothers as well who will say,"You know, to be honest with you, after six months I, I was back to myself again." Rare, but you know, they're there.
• 8:56
  TEMI: We can't say that every experience of every mother is the same, and that's what I find, you know.
• 9:01
  TEMI: It's very, very individualistic, but generally speaking, they are all vulnerable because they're coming to you with their most precious beings, their little babies, you know.
• 9:09
  TEMI: And you know, no matter how anxious or how, how aware they are of these things, you know, you're putting your trust in somebody else to help fix things, and make things better.
• 9:20
  TEMI: You, you know, and a lot of the time it's hinging on a lot of different things.
• 9:23
  TEMI: Like you say, there is a cost that comes with that.
• 9:25
  TEMI: You've made a financial investment, you know, it's got to work because you've got to also, you know, have investments for other things, you know.
• 9:32
  TEMI: It's all racking up when there's a child involved.
• 9:35
  TEMI: And, and then like you say, you know, it is one of those things where we look as well at a mother's wellbeing, you know, are you in a position mentally to actually make changes?
• 9:44
  TEMI: And so there are s- questions I will find out about the birth history.
• 9:48
  TEMI: Was it a traumatic birth?
• 9:49
  TEMI: Are they experiencing things like postnatal depression?
• 9:52
  TEMI: And when those things do crop up, I have a responsibility to say,"Okay, we need to manage this professionally.
• 9:58
  TEMI: Can you speak to your GP about this?
• 10:00
  TEMI: Do they recommend that you are in a position to do this?" Most times we know that where the sleep has improved, we do see a massive improvement on things like postnatal depression.
• 10:10
  TEMI: But, you know, it needs to be kind of, supported with a GP or someone else who has, you know, closer insight into this, you know, individual.
• 10:17
  TEMI: So mothers are extremely vulnerable, and parents generally are vulnerable, and the little babies.
• 10:23
  TEMI: I do a lot to make sure that, and any sleep consultant really should be doing a lot to make sure that mothers, parents are actually mentally in a position to make these changes, that can help, on the long run
• 10:34
  Remi Mogekwu: So what typical age of the child would you say that you tend to come into these families and give them support?
• 10:40
  TEMI: So, um, I can work with families with babies as young as newborns all the way up to children in a bed at school.
• 10:47
  TEMI: newborn families will come to me even before the baby arrives.
• 10:52
  TEMI: So there are lots of pregnant moms who are coming to me and saying,"When the baby gets here, what can I expect?"'Cause they just have no idea.
• 10:58
  TEMI: And we talk a lot about the first couple of week- weeks being those, like, whirlwind, you know.
• 11:02
  TEMI: There, there's really little room for a routine or anything.
• 11:05
  TEMI: It's more about just making sure you're okay, looking at-- you know, checking on your own self as well'cause that's the period where it can be really crucial in, in identifying where maybe postnatal depression is kicking in, um, and following those two weeks as well.
• 11:18
  TEMI: So we're looking a lot at what to expect in those early days, you know, how to be-- you know, empower yourself to be able to say, Visitors can't come'round right now." You know, how do I, you know, kind of have that teamwork with my partner, who I also always ask to be on the call where possible because it's a two-parent thing.
• 11:35
  TEMI: Um, I try not to just focus on,"Mom, you do this.
• 11:37
  TEMI: Mom, you do this.
• 11:38
  TEMI: Dad, where are you?" If you are in the picture or, you know, partner, you know, let's talk about this.
• 11:43
  TEMI: So we-- the newborn stages are pretty much just setting the foundations and then looking at things like feed schedules and, you know, very gentle solutions.
• 11:51
  TEMI: And then we move on to the infant stages, where typically children are big enough and ready to be sleep trained if that's an element they want to address as well.
• 12:00
  TEMI: There's one element of things which is looking at kind of the environmental changes, you know, making sure a baby is comfortable and giving them the best chance for sleep, looking at how their daytime naps are scheduled, are they in the right order, you know, to make sure we can be in a routine that promotes better sleep.
• 12:16
  TEMI: And some families might be happy for it to stop there.
• 12:18
  TEMI: Others might want the a- a- additional element of independent sleep so that they're doing even longer stretches, which again have to Fit the criteria.
• 12:26
  TEMI: So we look at that, and then we, um, you know, we resolve that as well all at once.
• 12:31
  TEMI: So it's not a one-size-fits-all.
• 12:33
  TEMI: It's about meeting a family and understanding where they are on those journeys.
• 12:36
  TEMI: And then we've got the toddlers, um, you know, who are just transitioning into a bed, and there you're facing things like delay tactics and boundary pushing.
• 12:44
  TEMI: And then that's the next job.
• 12:45
  TEMI: What can you expect from a developing toddler?
• 12:47
  TEMI: What are strategies to kind of make this transition easier?
• 12:51
  TEMI: How do we incentivize them to stay in their beds?
• 12:54
  TEMI: Lots of praise tactics and positive reinforcement and things that parents just haven't come across before or know that they even need, and it makes such a huge difference.
• 13:03
  TEMI: And then we're looking at school-age children who they've had these sleep challenges for a really long time.
• 13:08
  TEMI: They're really now kind of, you know, ruling the roost.
• 13:11
  TEMI: Parents don't really know their left from right by that point because they, you know, they just haven't been able to establish Those boundaries in a way that support those children.
• 13:19
  TEMI: So again, strategies for that because they need sleep to, to do well at school.
• 13:23
  TEMI: They're falling asleep in class.
• 13:25
  TEMI: So there's so many different, like, areas of it.
• 13:28
  TEMI: but I work with families through all those different transitions, basically.
• 13:33
  Remi Mogekwu: Even as you were talking, I'm thinking about the mother in this scenario, and I find that most women are probably geared up for the sleep deprivation in their maternity leave, and then when they go back to work and they actually have to be a functioning adult, that's probably when the sleep deprivation catches up.
• 13:50
  Remi Mogekwu: Right?
• 13:51
  Remi Mogekwu: And so I remember going back to work with my first again, and she was 15 months and still in our bed.
• 13:57
  Remi Mogekwu: I'd never sleep trained, and I was just tired, and someone looked at me at work and was like,"There's no way your 15-month-old has not slept through the night.""You need to do something about it," almost as if it was my fault.
• 14:07
  Remi Mogekwu: And I probably went home feeling inadequate in a way, and then did sleep training, and she got onto it really quickly.
• 14:14
  Remi Mogekwu: But it's that period of, like, returning to work, and then you've got the second shift at home.
• 14:18
  Remi Mogekwu: You've got a baby that's not sleeping.
• 14:20
  Remi Mogekwu: You're still trying to find your feet in the workplace.
• 14:22
  Remi Mogekwu: How do you speak to women in that situation?
• 14:24
  TEMI: You're absolutely right in that that transition to work is a really key stage for many, many mothers and parents.
• 14:31
  TEMI: That is where I get a lot of families coming to me.
• 14:34
  TEMI: So sort of answers your, your last question, like, what stage do I get lots of families?
• 14:38
  TEMI: And it's actually usually around this twelve months to eighteen month mark where families are gearing up to go back to work, or even nine months to twelve months where some are going back sooner, but that is usually the period of time and, you know, it becomes really imminent and, you know, they're, they're kinda like,"We need to sort this out because we're back in." Um, but there's also this kind of element of, like you said, shame that sometimes comes with feeling like,"Have I left this too late?
• 15:03
  TEMI: What could I have done differently?" And there's almost always the question when we've resolved things,'cause like you say, they do resolve quite quickly at those stages even though you might think it will be harder because they're bigger and older, but actually it can resolve quite quickly.
• 15:15
  TEMI: And then parents feel really guilty that they've gone through all of these months of not doing anything and thinking back to how things could've been different if they were more rested'cause they really do see the difference, and they're saying,"Oh, what could we have done, and should we have done this earlier?" And I always say,"You did it when you needed to do it, when it was right for you." You know, if there was a point in your journey where you were like-- you've recognized because that sleep deprivation is not just you- Being tired.
• 15:41
  TEMI: It's also the mental load and everything else that you're worrying about, thinking about.
• 15:46
  TEMI: Sometimes sleep is actually the last thing we think about.
• 15:48
  TEMI: If you think about when you're really stressed out, and actually what, what it is is it might be that you're hungry or you're tired, but you haven't really connected the dots, but you just know that you're, like, short with everyone, and you're-- then you're suddenly like,"Wait, I haven't had breakfast.
• 15:59
  TEMI: That's probably why I'm, I'm, you know, a little bit on edge." And then, you know, sometimes you, you don't realize that that's actually the thing that could make such a difference.
• 16:07
  TEMI: At some point, a parent will come to that recognition, whether it's the fact that they've had one really good night, and then they really see the difference in their mood and how they've, they've been, and then they're suddenly like,"How do we get this happening more often?" Or someone else saying something like,"Do you think maybe you should be sleep training or teaching your baby to sleep independently?
• 16:27
  TEMI: Could that..." Sometimes they need a bit of a prompt or it just comes to you, but the time it comes to you is when you're ready.
• 16:33
  TEMI: I don't recommend doing things too soon.
• 16:36
  TEMI: You know, a lot of times, you know, some families will come to me and say,"I'm prepared to pay for a friend, um, because she's in this, you know, situation with sleep, and I know it helped them.
• 16:45
  TEMI: It helped us." And I say,"I don't accept that." I say,"They need to come to me." Because it's not for everyone, and you have to be in that place where you recognize that that's the issue.
• 16:54
  TEMI: 'Cause there's so many other things that come up.
• 16:56
  TEMI: You know, your sense of identity, going back to work, that's such a big one.
• 17:01
  TEMI: You know, feeling like some, some mothers are, you know, those moments of co-sleeping are the moments that they have to feel connected to the motherhood experience compared to everything else.
• 17:13
  TEMI: They're-- For instance, they might be really, really busy at work, and that's what occupies most of their time, and that moment of co-sleeping is where they find that connection with their little ones.
• 17:23
  TEMI: You can't tell that parent to change that necessarily unless it, it is actually causing problems for the child and them, which a lot of the times it is, but they have to be ready and recognize that and find the power in knowing that they can establish those bonds at other points in the parenting experience.
• 17:39
  TEMI: And it's an ever-changing kind of bond and connection that keeps growing.
• 17:43
  TEMI: It's not gonna be taken away from you just from that, you know, those moments at night.
• 17:48
  TEMI: There's so much more to come with parenting and, and children.
• 17:51
  TEMI: So that's kind of the angle I approach parents with, when you're ready.
• 17:56
  Remi Mogekwu: Yeah.
• 17:56
  Remi Mogekwu: I've got so, I've got so many questions off the back of
• 17:59
  TEMI: Yeah.
• 18:01
  Remi Mogekwu: first questions that come to mind is about knowing when you're ready, right?
• 18:06
  Remi Mogekwu: So I think in today's society, motherhood can feel quite isolating, so it's almost like lost communities, we've lost groups, and sometimes when you, when you get to a place of,"Oh my gosh, I need help, I need it now," every one woman that does that, there's probably another couple who never know that they need help, and they just carry on with this sort of sacrificial mindset that motherhood is supposed to be hard.
• 18:32
  Remi Mogekwu: I just need to push through.
• 18:34
  Remi Mogekwu: And I've seen friends and I've seen family like that, and can have insight for myself.
• 18:38
  Remi Mogekwu: I can have insight for them.
• 18:40
  Remi Mogekwu: But unless they're willing to sort of put their head up and see that there is another way to do things, they just carry on, and they'll carry on for 18 years, 20 years, and then they'll be in their 50s and they'll be like,"Where did my life go?
• 18:52
  Remi Mogekwu: 'Cause I gave it all to being a parent." Um, and I kind of think that the downside to lack of community is what leads to that.
• 19:00
  Remi Mogekwu: Like, if you're around a group of mothers doing things differently, it is just eye-opener as to how other things could be done.
• 19:08
  Remi Mogekwu: So amongst your sort of clients and your clientele, have you noticed sort of loneliness and being isolated as a mother being on the rise?
• 19:19
  TEMI: Um, I wouldn't actually say being on the rise in particular.
• 19:24
  TEMI: There are some moms who have been incredibly lonely, um, some moms who are doing this journey on their own completely.
• 19:30
  TEMI: They don't have a partner, they don't have community.
• 19:33
  TEMI: It's not even, uh, you know, there at the minute.
• 19:36
  TEMI: They're doing it all on their own and, you know, I've worked with those, those moms and it's like together we've done this, and that's the first time in a really long time that they've had someone who they can text all day, you know, holding their hand through something, achieving something, and seeing the end of it together, and it's really, really special, those, those families that I work with.
• 19:56
  TEMI: And then you get the, the other moms.
• 19:58
  TEMI: A lot of moms who I work with have come to me through recommendations from friends in a WhatsApp group, and they're friends who they do baby groups with or ba-- you know, baby Pilates with or whatever else they're doing together.
• 20:10
  TEMI: Um, there's more and more of that sense of community with mothers now than I think there was even nine years ago.
• 20:15
  TEMI: I made my community of motherhood friends, I remember, through the NCT, which is like the National Child's Trust, and they have these like, you know, come together and, and yes, I was the only Black mom in the group, um, which again is a bit of a different experience.
• 20:28
  TEMI: But you know, we were all connected by this love for our amazing little babies who were all born at the same time and we all live, within, reach of each other and we could do things together and go to coffees in the morning and it still feels lonely in itself because you're always going to feel lonely in those really late hours of the night When you're struggling with feeds, when you're crying silently to yourself because you're so tired or whatever else is going on, and you feel by yourself, and it's all changed, and who's holding you, and all those real moments that we all have as moms, you're gonna feel those by yourself inevitably.
• 21:00
  TEMI: But there is a difference, you know, when you know that in the daytime there's people you can chat to, people recommending things to you, people recommending a consultant compared to other people who don't have that at all.
• 21:10
  TEMI: So I've worked with the, the sort of spectrum of, of that loneliness, um, sort of challenge.
• 21:16
  TEMI: But I feel like we all get lonely as mothers because it's such a unique, distinct experience.
• 21:22
  TEMI: It's a shared experience, but one that we're not necessarily talking about with each other or sharing in those moments because when, you know, even just by proximity, we are by ourselves in those moments.
• 21:33
  Remi Mogekwu: so I did a video on, on loneliness'cause, um, Jennifer Lawrence, the actress, I think that's her
• 21:39
  TEMI: Yeah.
• 21:40
  Remi Mogekwu: and she had said that she found motherhood incredibly lonely.
• 21:43
  Remi Mogekwu: And I also did NCT.
• 21:45
  Remi Mogekwu: I was, again, the only Black woman there.
• 21:47
  Remi Mogekwu: I was the youngest woman there as well.
• 21:49
  Remi Mogekwu: Um, and I felt that it was great because you had things to keep you busy during the day.
• 21:55
  Remi Mogekwu: But then I, I felt like the downside of it was, like, there was no real deep connection because you're only connecting with people because you're also mums, because you're also available.
• 22:03
  Remi Mogekwu: And, like, the friends that I had, my sisters who I would connect with deeply, were just not in the same phase of life, so they, they weren't the...
• 22:11
  Remi Mogekwu: don't know.
• 22:11
  Remi Mogekwu: I guess they weren't the people that I could go and, and lean on.
• 22:14
  Remi Mogekwu: And then also I had this NCT group.
• 22:16
  Remi Mogekwu: It was great, but it felt quite
• 22:18
  TEMI: Yeah.
• 22:19
  Remi Mogekwu: say that just to, to give caveat to what you were saying, that there are so many things that, communities that do exist for mums, but I don't think, I don't think that they always plug that That gap of feeling lonely.
• 22:31
  Remi Mogekwu: And so when I was doing my research for that particular video, it came up that women are spending up to eight hours during the day on their own because their partner's probably gone to work if they have one.
• 22:40
  Remi Mogekwu: And even if you go out with friends, how much time can you spend around other women and their babies?
• 22:45
  Remi Mogekwu: 'Cause almost struggling together.
• 22:48
  Remi Mogekwu: and so I think even as time has gone on, there's so much more light on maternal wellbeing in the postnatal period, and mental health, and burnout, and even coming across terms like matrescence.
• 23:00
  Remi Mogekwu: Where it's the change that you go through to become a mother is very similar mentally as to what you would go through through the adolescent period, and you struggle with things like loss of identity, finding new friends, going back to work, and then on top of that, you have sleep deprivation.
• 23:14
  Remi Mogekwu: Maybe because of an infant, maybe because you're worried, maybe because you've got anxiety or depression.
• 23:19
  Remi Mogekwu: All of those things will contribute to sleep deprivation.
• 23:22
  Remi Mogekwu: So I guess the question I want to follow on to is when I first met you at the event, you asked a really good question about the effects of sleep on the woman.
• 23:30
  Remi Mogekwu: And not just in the short term, on their sort of health l- longer term, and I think that's the bit that I think is really key that we're not keying into enough.
• 23:39
  Remi Mogekwu: So yeah, could you expand on that a bit?
• 23:40
  TEMI: Yeah, I definitely can because like you say, like the-- it, it's also about trying to work out, you know, what does sleep deprivation actually look like for everyone?
• 23:50
  TEMI: Like you say, it comes from so many different things.
• 23:52
  TEMI: Apart from the lack of sleep, it-- could it be the depression that's causing the lack of sleep, and then in, in itself kind of...
• 23:59
  TEMI: So where do we start?
• 24:00
  TEMI: Like, what bit do we address?
• 24:01
  TEMI: Is it the feeling just completely burnt out, the identity shifts, the masking when you're around lots of different, like, women who are not-- you're not really sharing any other lived experiences with except for the fact that you're mothers, and maybe you actually want a break from that.
• 24:18
  TEMI: You've the pressure to be enjoying every moment of it.
• 24:21
  TEMI: There's so many different elements of things that is draining, as a mother.
• 24:25
  TEMI: And so it's really difficult to know where do we start with it.
• 24:27
  TEMI: I think it's just really a case of, firstly understanding the impact.
• 24:32
  TEMI: It is draining, and accepting that it is draining.
• 24:35
  TEMI: What are some of the things that we can do to take the edge off?
• 24:39
  TEMI: If we're able to get in more hours of sleep, if we're able to kind of, you know, have moments to ourselves because we've got our evenings back or because we now have a partner that understands how they can fit into the routine.
• 24:53
  TEMI: Because a lot of the time, you know, when I have mothers come to me, for instance, and let's say they are in a partnership, it's not that the partners don't necessarily want to help, it's they don't know where they can help.
• 25:04
  TEMI: Because for the mum, the solution to everything has been baby sleep on my chest, baby sleep on the breast.
• 25:09
  TEMI: This again is a generalization'cause that's not necessarily the case with everyone.
• 25:12
  TEMI: But for the most part, the mother is taking up more of that load, both mentally and physically, and not necessarily because the partner doesn't want to help.
• 25:21
  TEMI: There are partners like that that are not helping.
• 25:23
  TEMI: That's a different conversation.
• 25:24
  TEMI: But there are some that just don't really know what to do because they just assume it's this systemic issue of mothers being the, the responsible, responsible for it all, not sharing that responsibility.
• 25:36
  TEMI: So sometimes these conversations I have with families, it's also about helping families know where can dad fit in, where can he do the feeds?
• 25:43
  TEMI: What- can she do at night?
• 25:44
  TEMI: What can she-- And sometimes even just that teamwork element, breaking things up, just takes the edge off that much more, and getting that rest in and knowing in the evening I can finally watch a show.
• 25:54
  TEMI: You know, many moms I've, I've, you know, worked with have said,"I've not been able to watch one full episode of a show for months," or,"I've not been able to read a book for ages," or, you know.
• 26:05
  TEMI: So even just those little things can make such a big difference on the mother's wellbeing.
• 26:09
  TEMI: But then, you know, it's also not feeling rushed to do anything, you know.
• 26:12
  TEMI: We do, we do survive it.
• 26:15
  TEMI: We are kind of living-- And you know, we shouldn't be necessarily, like, glamorizing living, you know, um, in survival mode.
• 26:22
  TEMI: But it really is survival mode till it's not for each mother.
• 26:26
  TEMI: Um, and we just hope that, like, we can raise awareness of the need for more support generally in every sphere.
• 26:32
  TEMI: Like mom to mom, woman to woman, like, you know, what can we do to make the lives of the next mother easier?
• 26:40
  TEMI: In what capacity?
• 26:41
  TEMI: And that's how I tend to sort of channel things when I'm working with families.
• 26:44
  TEMI: I'm looking at things from both the perspective of being a mom without projecting my own expectations, rushing parents.
• 26:51
  TEMI: I've got three children.
• 26:52
  TEMI: I don't let that lead my advice.
• 26:54
  TEMI: You know,"Well, my children did this, and I've got three." That's not helpful.
• 26:57
  TEMI: It's about actually, you know, de-centering your own position there and really working out what does she need as a mom?
• 27:04
  TEMI: It's her first time.
• 27:05
  TEMI: This is her first experience or, you know, or as a family, what do they need?
• 27:08
  TEMI: And, and that responsibility is so important, you know, where you're in that position to support moms.
• 27:13
  TEMI: But for themselves, it's just a waiting game.
• 27:15
  TEMI: It's really just, you know, we will survive it, but can we make our lives easier in any way?
• 27:20
  Remi Mogekwu: Yeah.
• 27:20
  Remi Mogekwu: No, I think that's really key.
• 27:22
  Remi Mogekwu: And even going back to the fact that you said you have three children.
• 27:24
  Remi Mogekwu: So everyone says no, no child is the same.
• 27:27
  Remi Mogekwu: How did you find by the second and third child, I imagine you had qualified as a sleep consultant.
• 27:32
  Remi Mogekwu: So how, how did you find going through that process of sleep training with them?
• 27:38
  TEMI: With my first child, like I said, completely just, like, did not know what I was doing.
• 27:42
  TEMI: Winging it.
• 27:43
  TEMI: That was the word, and that was the phrase.
• 27:45
  TEMI: And I actually took a lot of pride initially of being like,"You know, I'm winging it.
• 27:47
  TEMI: I'm just gonna wing it.
• 27:48
  TEMI: I'm not reading the books.
• 27:49
  TEMI: I'm just gonna go with the flow." But that really didn't work for us on the long run because I was really, really struggling.
• 27:57
  TEMI: And like I said, once I had a bit of a formula, then I was like,"Okay, I'm gonna be on top of it for the other children." It was the only way that I could even picture having other children.
• 28:06
  TEMI: And I also had really, really challenging pregnancies.
• 28:08
  TEMI: So again, that sleep deprivation point, it can actually be spanning on from, like, even before the baby gets here if you have a challenging birth.
• 28:16
  TEMI: So if you've got things like I had hyperemesis gravidarum, and already was like you're already completely wiped, and then you're going into the motherhood period.
• 28:24
  TEMI: It's like you do not catch a break.
• 28:26
  TEMI: At some point, you just need to address the sleep, and I think that's where I had finally got to with my first.
• 28:32
  TEMI: I had it again with my second, the hyperemesis, plus a toddler at the time, and it was just like sleep was just at the top, top of the, of the list.
• 28:40
  TEMI: And yes, even as a sleep consultant myself, you know, I, I had-- I took that hat off, and I was doing things, you know, from, you know, a recovering mother.
• 28:49
  TEMI: I couldn't get it all together, and that actually helped me have a lot more compassion for my clients because I then remembered again, you know, the, you know, how difficult it is.
• 28:58
  TEMI: Even with knowing and knowing what to do, there are times where I've just had to push things a little bit later or do things, you know, just let it go for today and go off track.
• 29:07
  TEMI: You know, I just can't deal with a routine.
• 29:09
  TEMI: I could be flexible, but at least I had, like, a bit of a, a goal in mind and a bit of a pattern that meant we weren't sleep deprived as long as I was with my first.
• 29:16
  TEMI: We went through the challenging newborn bits.
• 29:19
  TEMI: By the time they turned twelve weeks, they were doing those really long stretches.
• 29:22
  TEMI: I was able to kind of have my evenings back, time in the day for my toddler.
• 29:26
  TEMI: Like, it made things a lot, a lot easier.
• 29:28
  TEMI: And the same thing with my third.
• 29:30
  TEMI: By the time she came into the picture, it was very much like, okay, you know, it's already, you know, a logistical nightmare.
• 29:37
  TEMI: How are we going to, like, make this work here?
• 29:39
  TEMI: and we did.
• 29:40
  TEMI: We got onto her sleep.
• 29:41
  TEMI: She was actually just a naturally easier sleeper.
• 29:44
  TEMI: And again, that's the thing, temperament.
• 29:46
  TEMI: All babies are really different.
• 29:47
  TEMI: You know, my two boys are completely different.
• 29:50
  TEMI: My daughter couldn't be more different, you know.
• 29:52
  TEMI: So their temperaments also meant having to work out what the right approach was for each of them, and that can be the case even with twin families I work with.
• 30:01
  TEMI: No two babies are ever the same.
• 30:03
  TEMI: They're, they're so different, and we need to be looking at it from a really individualistic perspective.
• 30:07
  TEMI: So yes, I have three children, but it's like the same thing but, but just the more-- the, the stronger awareness of a need to resolve this sooner was where what I found to be the case and with many families I work with.
• 30:19
  TEMI: By the time I'm working with a family with two, three children, they already know what they've got to do.
• 30:24
  TEMI: They're not necessarily panicking so much about things like,"Am I going to mentally scar my child for life if for the-- for a couple of minutes I gave them time to self-settle and, and I was there?" Obviously, there's loads of reassuring, gentle, responsive tactics.
• 30:39
  TEMI: We're not talking about a cry out method of leaving your children, shutting the door, and disappearing, which is a kind of old school, traditional, get back to work Of, you know, mentality.
• 30:48
  TEMI: That's not what we're doing here.
• 30:50
  TEMI: There's lots and lots of responsive, gentle ways to settle your baby.
• 30:53
  TEMI: So just learning that and keeping on top of that is hard in itself, so a lot of support is needed and, you know, but by the time I'm working with families with two, three children, they know the need for it.
• 31:04
  TEMI: They, you know, they prioritize it, and we get things because, you know, they've got to.
• 31:09
  TEMI: It's gotta work somehow with, with all of them.
• 31:13
  Remi Mogekwu: Yeah, I think even just, reiterating that you're a gentle sleep trainer, that you're not saying,"Let them cry, shut the door," I think is really important.
• 31:21
  Remi Mogekwu: So, linking back to that shame ag- I think I shared this with you before as well.
• 31:26
  Remi Mogekwu: So with my oldest, I didn't sleep train, and with my youngest, I was probably, like, five months in, and I was having to do professional exams, and I just needed her sleep to be sorted.
• 31:37
  TEMI: Yeah.
• 31:37
  Remi Mogekwu: poor girl, Yeah, I did the cry out
• 31:39
  TEMI: Yeah.
• 31:40
  Remi Mogekwu: and pat her back, all the things, try to get her to
• 31:42
  TEMI: Mm-hmm.
• 31:43
  Remi Mogekwu: And she's turning five soon, and she's someone that would still cry.
• 31:46
  Remi Mogekwu: Like, she-- Crying is her form of expression.
• 31:49
  Remi Mogekwu: And, like, for years I've been like,"Oh my gosh, I taught her how to cry.
• 31:52
  Remi Mogekwu: This is my fault.
• 31:53
  Remi Mogekwu: I should've, you know, I should've just let her sleep in my bed till whenever." And you know, there is that constant, I think as, as mothers anyway, like, it's everybody's first time.
• 32:02
  Remi Mogekwu: Like, it's your first time being a mum.
• 32:03
  Remi Mogekwu: It's your first time being a mother of two or a mother of three.
• 32:06
  Remi Mogekwu: So you never really know if what you're doing is gonna scar them or
• 32:11
  TEMI: Yeah.
• 32:11
  TEMI: Yeah, distraction.
• 32:18
  Remi Mogekwu: to do it,
• 32:19
  TEMI: Yeah, but the thing is, even with those methods, there's really no evidence whatsoever that that has any impact on a child's wellbeing.
• 32:26
  TEMI: You know, you're not going to be destroying or trauma- traumatizing your child when you are such a responsive parent anyway.
• 32:33
  TEMI: Your parenting is not just one facet.
• 32:35
  TEMI: There's so many other areas.
• 32:37
  TEMI: Are you showing connection with your child, you know, in their wake periods?
• 32:40
  TEMI: You know, what, what, what are they like?
• 32:41
  TEMI: Are they playing?
• 32:42
  TEMI: Are they eating well?
• 32:43
  TEMI: Are they generally happy?
• 32:44
  TEMI: Are they pushing back when they're tired?
• 32:46
  TEMI: Um, you know, that's likely, and that, that is kind of the way they communicate, you know.
• 32:51
  TEMI: Behavior is also communication, and if they're, you know, pushing back and crying at p- at specific points, you know, down to temperament, yes, but also probably down to tiredness.
• 33:02
  TEMI: So, you know, again, with my methods, I always say it's not a cry it out method of put your baby down, like I said, you know.
• 33:07
  TEMI: It's not quite that.
• 33:09
  TEMI: But even with you being there, responsive, settling them, you can expect they're still going to be crying'cause you're not doing the things you were previously doing.
• 33:16
  TEMI: You're trying to change certain kind of, you know, routines and things that were not helping the situation.
• 33:21
  TEMI: And so for that reason, there's going to be You know, pushback and crying.
• 33:24
  TEMI: So I always manage parents' expectations.
• 33:27
  TEMI: This is not a no-cry plan, and you will get, you know, again, back to that initial topic of unregulated space and the kind of guerrilla tactic marketing that you see with some sleep coaches that will be promising a no-cry approach.
• 33:39
  TEMI: They would claim to be a gentle sleep trainer.
• 33:41
  TEMI: So, I have to say I'm not gentle sleep trainer.
• 33:43
  TEMI: Yes, my, my methods are-- It's my, my brand is The Gentle Baby Sleep Help, but I will be gentle with you as a parent.
• 33:50
  TEMI: We will be gentle about how at your child and looking at their needs and, and the pace of things, and we will tweak it and personalize it.
• 33:58
  TEMI: We're going to be holistic about things and, you know, it's going to be safe for you.
• 34:02
  TEMI: We need to make you feel safe and secure and remove the stress.
• 34:06
  TEMI: It doesn't need to be as stressful as the other methods might be, like, you know, an extinction method.
• 34:11
  TEMI: But no form of this, there's no evidence of this to kind of harm a child.
• 34:16
  TEMI: So my point is, you know, watch out for those sleep consultants promising no-cry approach.
• 34:21
  TEMI: Because what will happen is, you know, they'll say that, and then your baby's crying, and they've mismanaged your expectations at that point.
• 34:27
  TEMI: And then they, you know, you aren't able to, to cope with the, the changes.
• 34:31
  TEMI: So it's really important to be super transparent with families at the get-go.
• 34:35
  TEMI: What can you expect?
• 34:36
  TEMI: Reassure them.
• 34:38
  TEMI: It starts with the data.
• 34:39
  TEMI: You know, bring the science of things into it.
• 34:42
  TEMI: There is a science of things when it comes to sleep cycles.
• 34:44
  TEMI: Have that understanding and knowledge.
• 34:46
  TEMI: And then parents can make an informed decision to go ahead and have the backing of their GP, and many GPs would be recommending it And when all those things are in place, then, you know, you have someone who has that knowledge to support you throughout as you implement.
• 34:59
  TEMI: so that is also that element of coaching and supporting families in actually making sure the changes are sustainable.
• 35:06
  TEMI: So, yeah, you wouldn't have scarred your child.
• 35:08
  TEMI: That's the point I was trying to make, and temperament is everything.
• 35:13
  Remi Mogekwu: Yeah.
• 35:14
  Remi Mogekwu: Even through our conversation today, we've spoken about, like, sleep training for the younger babies, the toddlers, or, you know, just as you're going back to work, like the up to 18-month period.
• 35:25
  TEMI: Yeah.
• 35:25
  Remi Mogekwu: I really wanna make sure that women who have kids under five also take something away from this.
• 35:29
  Remi Mogekwu: So if, say, for instance, you're-- got a three to four-year-old who still finds their way into your bed in the middle of the night.
• 35:36
  Remi Mogekwu: So my second still does that.
• 35:39
  Remi Mogekwu: And it won't be every night, it might be three nights a week.
• 35:41
  Remi Mogekwu: But whenever she's there, we don't sleep well.
• 35:44
  TEMI: Yeah.
• 35:46
  Remi Mogekwu: Like, I've got an Oura Ring, I know my sleep debt is, like, four hours, and I will know when it goes up, I know it goes down, and it will often correlate with when she's had a restless night.
• 35:55
  Remi Mogekwu: And even if they're not coming to, into your bed, the minute they're ill, there's always something, I think, that tends to happen at night that you have to sort out and still try and function the next day.
• 36:06
  Remi Mogekwu: So for people who are parenting in that age group, what typical advice do you give them for babies that-- or, yeah, yeah, their babies that are coming into their bed?
• 36:14
  TEMI: Yeah, and you know, I think the thing about it is, you know, how often is it happening?
• 36:18
  TEMI: You know, if it's happening a couple of times here and there every couple of weeks or so, or a month or whatever, then, you know, some parents are actually quite happy with that.
• 36:26
  TEMI: It's quite sweet when they surprise you in there, and you have a little bit of a cuddle.
• 36:29
  TEMI: Yes, it does have an impact'cause it really does have an impact'cause you feel it the next day, and you feel it maybe, like, five minutes after they get in.
• 36:37
  TEMI: You have your little snuggle, and then it's like,"Oh, stop kicking me," and you're like,"Oh, duvet." You know the struggle.
• 36:43
  TEMI: Yeah, exactly.
• 36:44
  TEMI: They're, they're in all sorts of positions, and you're waking up with aches and this and that, and then they start wanting to play and So, you know, I think there does come a point where you know,"Okay, this is out of hand now.
• 36:53
  TEMI: This isn't something that's actually within my control." Um, I think it's that, at that point that you need to start putting a bit of a strategy in place, you know?
• 37:01
  TEMI: And whether that's you being really consistent about returning them back to bed, and it can be really hard in those moments'cause you're tired and exhausted yourself, so you're kind of going through the path of least resistance.
• 37:12
  TEMI: But it might mean the difference between a couple of hard, kind of boundary nights.
• 37:16
  TEMI: So if you've gotta go in and try really hard to settle them back in their beds knowing that this should hopefully then kind of have set the boundaries.
• 37:23
  TEMI: But again, those boundaries will look different for every family, and this is why I tend not to give, like, the most generic of advice.
• 37:29
  TEMI: The only advice I'd say is if you really do feel this is something that's, infringing on your wellness as a family, it's really important to seek some help or advice, you know?
• 37:37
  TEMI: And, and do see if you can, you know, get in- Some advice on how to get your, your toddler to, to sleep in their bed more often than not, because it can be having an impact.
• 37:47
  TEMI: But there will need to be, like, lots of positive reinforcement, so lots of praise.
• 37:50
  TEMI: I always say toddlers love praise.
• 37:52
  TEMI: They thrive on praise.
• 37:53
  TEMI: So the days that they are, are doing their good stretches in bed and have slept through in their own beds, it's met with a lot of praise.
• 37:59
  TEMI: "Well done," you know,"You did so well.
• 38:01
  TEMI: You slept in your bed all night." And telling their-- your-- their teachers.
• 38:04
  TEMI: They love hearing praise.
• 38:05
  TEMI: Not just to them, praise about them to other people.
• 38:08
  TEMI: There's other siblings,"They did so well, slept in their bed." Make it a bit of a big deal.
• 38:12
  TEMI: They absolutely love that.
• 38:12
  TEMI: Again, this is why we need to look at things really individualistic'cause there are some three-year-olds that are operating as five-year-olds, and then there's some that are a little bit younger.
• 38:20
  TEMI: They're things that you could,
• 38:21
  Remi Mogekwu: Yeah.
• 38:21
  TEMI: And, you know, also just remembering consistency.
• 38:24
  TEMI: I always say this.
• 38:25
  TEMI: If they're pushing boundaries in the lead up to bedtime, the chances are they're gonna push boundaries at bedtime.
• 38:30
  TEMI: So look at where you're giving them lots of choices in the day.
• 38:34
  TEMI: "Do you want the red plate, blue plate?" All the things that are within your control as a parent, but give them the choice so that you don't feel so bad when you've got to stick to your boundaries we do a lot of work with visuals.
• 38:45
  TEMI: When they know what to expect, the transitions are a bit easier.
• 38:49
  TEMI: And so that can kind of determine how the rest of the night is going to go, making the most of that bedtime routine together.
• 38:55
  TEMI: You've had your bonding.
• 38:56
  TEMI: You've done your, you know, book or whatever.
• 38:59
  TEMI: Again, that will mean you feel less bad if you've got to put your foot down at,"You've got to go back to bed," you know, and stick it out
• 39:05
  Remi Mogekwu: yeah.
• 39:06
  Remi Mogekwu: And I think that's really helpful'cause sometimes the thing that we see as the issue is, like, the baby waking up at night, the baby not sleeping, you being sleep deprived.
• 39:13
  Remi Mogekwu: That's often not where the issue
• 39:15
  TEMI: Yeah.
• 39:18
  Remi Mogekwu: who's trying to fix their morning routine, you first have to look at your bedtime routine, right?
• 39:22
  Remi Mogekwu: And, and I think it tracks completely through.
• 39:25
  Remi Mogekwu: So even if you are a parent and you are,"Oh, my child's not sleeping, therefore I'm sleep deprived," but what are you doing during the day?
• 39:33
  Remi Mogekwu: Are you having unhealthy food that's making your sugar spike up and down?
• 39:37
  Remi Mogekwu: Are you having coffee?
• 39:39
  Remi Mogekwu: Are you using your time wisely to potentially nap through the day?
• 39:42
  Remi Mogekwu: Like, it's such a cliché to sleep when the baby sleeps as if you've got nothing else to do, especially in the culture in which we live.
• 39:49
  Remi Mogekwu: Um, but there are so many other bits that you can control because the nighttime can sometimes feel like it's out of your control, so to speak.
• 39:59
  TEMI: Yeah, exactly.
• 40:00
  TEMI: You know, it can be really unpredictable sometimes with how is the night going to go.
• 40:04
  TEMI: So how are you conserving your energy in the day as much as possible?
• 40:08
  TEMI: Um, and like you say, it's very much linked.
• 40:10
  TEMI: I think even with a baby or a, a toddler, again, looking at things like, you know, have they napped too long in the day?
• 40:15
  TEMI: You know, is there-- You know, tracking things can sometimes help.
• 40:18
  TEMI: Um, looking at the days where things were a bit off, what was a bit different?
• 40:22
  TEMI: This was the day she had a nap really late.
• 40:24
  TEMI: Okay, maybe we avoid naps after this time.
• 40:26
  TEMI: And testing things out and where-- I always say give things two weeks.
• 40:29
  TEMI: If things are still really bad for two weeks, then you should probably be looking to see, can you get some help?
• 40:34
  TEMI: But I think if you've not got the capacity to even resolve that, to look into that, yes, it's about being mindful of what are you doing in the daytime to sort of support your own self and your wellbeing.
• 40:44
  TEMI: Are you being able to do a power nap at point so that you have a bit more energy to push through?
• 40:49
  TEMI: Are you going to bed earlier yourself, potentially putting away the phone, even though that's the only time you have to doom scroll without any disturbance.
• 40:57
  TEMI: Finally, you've got that moment to binge on all the things you've been wanting to do.
• 41:01
  TEMI: But actually, maybe, you know, you've had a rough couple of nights already.
• 41:04
  TEMI: We don't know how tonight's gonna go.
• 41:05
  TEMI: It might tip you at-- for over the edge.
• 41:07
  TEMI: The weekend's coming up.
• 41:08
  TEMI: Let's use tonight as my early bedtime night as much as I can and, and knowing we don't know how the rest of the night goes.
• 41:15
  TEMI: But I think the point really is it comes a point where if it feels out of your depth, it's not working anymore.
• 41:21
  TEMI: You do need some handholding.
• 41:22
  TEMI: You do need help.
• 41:23
  Remi Mogekwu: Yeah.
• 41:23
  Remi Mogekwu: I think leading to my earlier point, understanding that motherhood is a journey, and no one really does any journey alone.
• 41:30
  Remi Mogekwu: And the idea is that you should be asking for help, whether it's help from your partner, help from your friends, help from your family.
• 41:37
  Remi Mogekwu: You know, knowing that we're both Nigerian, in our culture, typically, like your mother-in-law or your mother will help around that time of childbirth because they know how
• 41:46
  TEMI: Mm-hmm.
• 41:46
  Remi Mogekwu: and how demanding it is.
• 41:48
  Remi Mogekwu: And I very much have benefited from both sets of grandmothers.
• 41:53
  Remi Mogekwu: And so asking for help in what I've, I've personally found to be a really
• 41:57
  TEMI: Yeah.
• 42:14
  Remi Mogekwu: thrive in this season.
• 42:16
  TEMI: Yeah, 100%.
• 42:17
  TEMI: I think you're absolutely right.
• 42:19
  TEMI: I mean, I did like-- I did speak on a podcast recently about this, the difference between the sort of postnatal care as someone from West Africa, or as a Black, person living in the UK, and just that stark difference in experience, you know.
• 42:33
  TEMI: You know, there is a lot more postnatal support back home because there's literally a village of help, whether that's in form of parents, grandparents, or nannies, multiple.
• 42:42
  TEMI: You know, obviously childcare is so different back th-there compared to here.
• 42:46
  TEMI: And so, you know, there are differences and yeah, it can be the, the difference, to a really happy start to things and an easier start than, you know, than not.
• 42:55
  TEMI: And like you say, this attitude of just push through.
• 42:57
  TEMI: How dare you ask for help?
• 42:58
  TEMI: No help.
• 42:59
  TEMI: No, we've got to make up the opportunities we have.
• 43:01
  TEMI: And there are stigmas as well.
• 43:03
  TEMI: So again, you know, historically we are in a country where as Black women, for instance, you know, the, the healthcare system, there's a question around, you know, the Five More campaign and dying in childbirth compared to, you know, other races so I think there is a bit of skepticism generally, as a Black mother when it comes to who can help And again, in the world like mine, with sleep consulting, it's dominated with White faces.
• 43:27
  TEMI: It's a very White face space.
• 43:30
  TEMI: And so that again, is why it's so important for this representation and why I try to push myself out there because there are other Black African, you know, sleep consultants that get the nuance of, yes, you might have in-laws and parents kind of supporting you, but what are your needs, you individually?
• 43:46
  TEMI: Like, would you, you want more autonomy, how do we get things in check?
• 43:49
  TEMI: 'Cause they also don't always know what to do, and everyone's then tired, and everyone's then at each other, and then everyone's feeling like,"Oh, what's gonna-- what am I gonna do when they leave?" And you become really dependent on them and it's, you know, it can be really difficult in itself.
• 44:03
  TEMI: So lean on, on the support, be open.
• 44:06
  TEMI: Yes, that, you know, I understand the skepticism, but be open to asking,"What can I do?" Ask community, post Search, you know, be really specific in your search, you know.
• 44:18
  TEMI: Say your worries, speak to your GP.
• 44:21
  TEMI: it can be the difference where they can say, speak to someone about this, that knowledge and understanding of it.
• 44:27
  TEMI: Not pushing or pressuring, but if you think this might help, at least sometimes that's the only line of support some people have.
• 44:35
  TEMI: But yeah, we need to, you know, remain connected and open to, to trying and, and testing and, and taking advice.
• 44:43
  TEMI: But it's hard.
• 44:45
  Remi Mogekwu: Yeah, it is hard.
• 44:45
  Remi Mogekwu: And I think you touched on something really important about the, what people look like.
• 44:51
  Remi Mogekwu: So even in, even as an obstetrician, right?
• 44:53
  Remi Mogekwu: So I walk on the ward, I am a minority.
• 44:57
  Remi Mogekwu: I work in an area where the majority of patients actually are Black or Asian or other ethnic backgrounds.
• 45:03
  Remi Mogekwu: And so I very much understand my position in those spaces as sometimes being a, a face of diversity.
• 45:09
  Remi Mogekwu: But then when you're online and you're looking for a lactation consultant, a pelvic floor physio, a sleep consultant, or you're looking for a psychologist to help you,'cause, like, even for this podcast, for the things that I'm doing, this is what I'm constantly thinking about.
• 45:23
  Remi Mogekwu: Like, I want to speak to people who can speak to the community that I really care
• 45:27
  TEMI: Yeah.
• 45:27
  TEMI: Oh, the,
• 45:48
  Remi Mogekwu: but yeah, there's
• 45:49
  TEMI: Oh,
• 45:49
  Remi Mogekwu: enough of us
• 45:51
  TEMI: okay.
• 45:51
  Remi Mogekwu: speaking into this, into this area.
• 45:54
  Remi Mogekwu: So very much, if you know anyone that is working in the postnatal space, please send them my way because I would love
• 46:00
  TEMI: I would say
• 46:01
  Remi Mogekwu: to them.
• 46:02
  TEMI: you are not alone.
• 46:23
  TEMI: Okay?
• 46:24
  TEMI: That might sound really, really cliché, but actually there's a lot of power when you sit and think about it.
• 46:32
  TEMI: You know, what you are experiencing, what you're facing You know, there are many facing the same thing.
• 46:38
  TEMI: Your experience might be different and, and, you know, very, very specific to you.
• 46:42
  TEMI: But generally, you know, you're not alone.
• 46:44
  TEMI: Seek help, stand up for yourself, advocate for yourself.
• 46:49
  TEMI: Don't feel like you have to struggle all by yourself.
• 46:52
  TEMI: And, when you're ready, make a step.
• 46:54
  TEMI: Don't feel pressure, you know, take your time.
• 46:57
  TEMI: You know, you've got this.
• 46:59
  Remi Mogekwu: Perfect.
• 47:00
  Remi Mogekwu: No, that's really encouraging.
• 47:01
  Remi Mogekwu: Thank you very much.
• 47:02
  Remi Mogekwu: So where can the people listening or watching this find you?
• 47:05
  TEMI: You can find me on Gentle Baby Sleep Help on social media, so that's on Facebook and Instagram, Gentle Baby Sleep Help.
• 47:14
  TEMI: and my website, gentlebabysleephelp.com.
• 47:18
  TEMI: I have a 20-minute chat, you know, free chat, if you just wanted to call in and talk about some of the challenges.
• 47:24
  TEMI: I speak to lots and lots of moms every day.
• 47:27
  TEMI: So, feel free to tap into that if you need to speak to someone.
• 47:32
  Remi Mogekwu: Perfect.
• 47:33
  Remi Mogekwu: Thank you very much.
• 47:33
  Remi Mogekwu: So I'll also put all your details
• 47:35
  TEMI: Sure.
• 48:00
  Remi Mogekwu: much.
• 48:01
  TEMI: Thank you so much for having me.
• 48:03
  TEMI: And I have to say, you know, congratulations on everything you're doing.
• 48:06
  TEMI: It's absolutely amazing.
• 48:08
  TEMI: You're changing lives.
• 48:09
  TEMI: So, so inspirational.
• 48:10
  TEMI: Honestly, I feel so honored to be here.
• 48:12
  TEMI: So thank you very, very much for having me on.
• 48:14
  TEMI: And we'll keep this going and engaging, you know, as, as we go along and work in this space,
• 48:20
  thank you so much for watching.
• 48:21
  If this conversation resonated with you at all, then subscribe to this channel.
• 48:25
  We'll be having many more conversations about how you can thrive in pregnancy, postpartum, and beyond, not just thinking about your physical health, but your mental health and your social recovery also.
• 48:35
  Thank you for watching, and I'll see you in my next episode