Latest / JM3 Lacrosse Podcast / JM3 Lacrosse Podcast Season 7, Ep. 6 NY Charging/Penn Charter/HHH Head Coach Colleen Magarity Kelly

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JM3 Lacrosse Podcast Season 7, Ep. 6 NY Charging/Penn Charter/HHH Head Coach Colleen Magarity Kelly · JM3 Lacrosse Podcast

• Sara Munro: This is the JM three Lacrosse Podcast conversations about playing, coaching, and learning the game differently. From player development and skill acquisition to the ideas shaping the future of lacrosse. This is JM three. Jamie Munro: How's it going, everybody? Welcome back to the JM3 Lacrosse podcast. Very excited to have Colleen McGarry join the show. Colleen is the head coach at Penn Charter in Philly. And she is also the founder and director of Triple H lacrosse in Philly. Colleen, always great to have you on the show. How are you doing? Colleen: Great and happy to be here. We haven't done this in a while, so I'm excited to be back and yeah. Jamie Munro: it's been a little while. Hey, by the way, your name came up the other day because I was up at watching Colorado practice and was talking to Mitch and Ann, and I was with a couple of high school coaches, the Fairview coaches came up and joined the practice, and I was telling them how I met you and how you and Hannah used to be coached. That's where we met in your Colorado days. I know. Colleen: Yeah, that's where our Yeah. It's our relationship started, Jane. Lacrosse and a beer, right? Jamie Munro: it was so great. I I remember we're sitting there in some pub near our 3D facility and and you're taking notes on your phone as we're talking with us and Colleen: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: I was like, I love this girl, that's perfect. That's exactly the kind of conversations I like to have. Colleen: Totally. Yeah, They're doing great. They have a lot of my Triple H trails now. They're at Colorado too. And had a great year last year. I'm excited for them to keep growing. Jamie Munro: They did. And I tell you what, I loved watching them practice. they're obviously running more of a a a two-man game, three-man game actions, and it made a huge difference. And their star players, Triple H girl, right? Maddie Shute. I remember meeting her Colleen: Yep. Mm-hmm. She had a great she had a great career. Jamie Munro: way back in the day. She was such a stud. Colleen: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: and and obviously their defense is one thing I really wanted to go watch was how they play defense and how they put it in. It had some really cool drills going on, actually, where she was doing some zone drills with some small, some part hole four on four on the side zone stuff, which I had tried before, but I had not tried the way she did it, which was top elbow base and other base against four, Colleen: Okay. Jamie Munro: which is so huge. Cause I kind of was putting my backer in there. Colleen: The other base needs to get to the middle. Jamie Munro: And so the backside base had to get to the middle big time, which Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: is such a huge part of the defense, anyways. Colleen: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: and then she added another top and another elbow in one offensive player to the backside so that she Colleen: Okay. Jamie Munro: could practice the rotation of the bass player across and the elbow player down and the top player seeing cutter that cutter, which I thought was a really cool thing because it's so huge to get the backside bass player, a backside top girl to be able to s get in and the backside elbow to be able to really fly down. Colleen: Totally. Hm, I'm gonna have to text Anne and have her show me some film. Jamie Munro: So that's yeah. I know. Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: I got I got to hang out a little bit in the offices and I spent t most of the time talking to Mitch and talking offense and he shared a couple of defensive concepts with me, but it was awesome. Colleen: Awesome. Jamie Munro: but hey, the the topics that I wanted to chat with you about was recruiting. there's a couple of people that asked me, they were like, Jamie, can you get on a podcast with Colleen and talk a little bit about recruiting and the updates and And the five and five stuff Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: in particular. So give me your state of the union on on the effects of the five and five and what you're seeing, with the twenty eights and what you're expecting with twenty nines. Colleen: honestly, so going into it, I think I was a little bit not preparing my 28ths, like everyone's gonna take such a small class, blah blah blah, like be ready. But then actually some of the schools that told me they were gonna take small classes end up not really taking small classes. Everyone just went fast. So it was like a bizarre, like I was prepared for this, trickle effect, which I think did happen, but happened because of the speed. of which recruiting happened this fall. the speed in which all levels, so like Big Ten ACC and then at at at the same time Patriot League was like wrapped up in two weeks. So that's really hard. you know what I mean? So it's like when a kid gets told no by let's just say like a Virginia or Duke or top school, it's like, all right, you you naturally kind of move to the next level. Those ones were done. So it's like, wow. Okay, so now we're left kind of scrambling. So I think that part was a little bit harder this year, and still is. I do think, always talk about, put your head down, work hard, get better, you're gonna land yourself at a great spot. I still do believe in that. the DD Fosters, Lucy, Brooke Baker, we have so many people we can talk about that like just listened to me and you and got better and, loved lacrosse. I think the love lacrosse is an important part, not not love committing, which I do Jamie Munro: Yeah. Colleen: think people love committing. But you Jamie Munro: Yeah. Colleen: gotta love lacrosse, you know? So you gotta love lacrosse and then the path will end up. Like I have some really good kids that are left and I'm like it they'll be all right. Like the the right people are gonna watch and be like, wow, I this kid is way better than three or four of my kids or Or better than some of my current team, where I think some coaches are being a little bit more hesitant or reserved, like I'm gonna save a spot for a fifth year. But maybe those fifth years don't wanna come back, maybe it doesn't pan out. I I don't know. There's a lot of unknown. So it's definitely was a lot faster of a process though. in that regard was really hard. So my advice for moving forward is just to make sure that you're actively emailing. I always say like, a list of thirty schools, you really need to still email those other fifteen schools. You can't just focus on your top ten. 'cause some of the schools are like, I never heard from that kid. I didn't know they even liked me. And so it's like, well Jamie Munro: How much how important is that? and like Colleen: I didn't think it was that important. Jamie Munro: at what point is it annoying, I guess? Colleen: It is kind of annoying. But I didn't think it was that important until a couple of the Patriot League schools were like, We never got an email from them, so we never really watched them. You know? and then I thought about it. I'm like, all right, I have a top team. Majority of my team team does go to Big Ten, ACC, Ivy League. You know what I mean? So if that like next tier of schools doesn't get an email from some someone on my team, are they gonna watch my team that much? maybe not, right? So I I think in that regard, making sure that you do express interest at least once or twice and continue on is helpful to make sure you have more schools watching you and not just your dream list. But I do recommend not emailing every single weekend. I always say that. I'm like you do not need to email before every single weekend. One in the fall and then after you work at a showcase or a camp, like I always say, if you come to my Charleston's finest thing, just send thank you emails to the schools that you really connected with or that you really liked. then you can take a break. If you watch their games throughout the spring, tell them, like, congratulations on your great win. I loved watching you play. Like they might not read the whole thing, but they're gonna have some sort of connection. Like, Colleen emailed me and she's watching our games. Great. Like I'll keep an eye on her, right? Like I think yes and no. But I it is annoying sometimes. There I feel like the first round of emails are gonna come right now, the coaches aren't even opening. They're just like seeing the name and putting them in like a folder. Jamie Munro: Totally. I want to come back to emails in a second. But back to the five and five thing. So you're expecting that classes were going to be small, but Colleen: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: they actually what you're saying is they actually weren't. Colleen: Well, like some were and some weren't. And like obviously like I heard Northwestern was gonna take three or four, but they kinda have seven. So it's like they didn't take four. Jamie Munro: Yeah. Yeah. Colleen: Maryland was gonna take four or five, they have seven or eight, but they got all their top kids. So it's like, why would I say no if I went eight for eight with every kid that I wanted, you know? So maybe they would've taken a smaller class if some of the kids that weren't on their star list said no. So I I just think they end up where, you know, you have a couple like Virginia and Jamie were like, We're at four and we're staying here, or like four or five, Jamie Munro: Mm-hmm. Colleen: and but I still think there's room to add one later on. Do you know what I mean? I could be wrong, Jamie Munro: Yeah. Yeah. Colleen: but I do think if you have that, you know, I talk about Aditi Foster all the time, she didn't get any calls on September first and she committed a year later. Like I think those schools would say yes to her that developed very well and became a a really good player. Yeah. Jamie Munro: Yeah, totally. Well, generally it's really it's coaches have really ha have a hard time containing themselves when it comes to recruiting. Like you you always say you're gonna take a small class and then you just like can't say no to players that you really like. It's hard to. But the rubber's gonna hit the road at some point. Colleen: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: You know, because at a certain point, if the roster cap, is thirty eight and you divide that by four and it's nine and a half. and you know, usually maybe you take seven Or eight, maybe to leave a couple of spots open for transfer portal or fifth years. And now you divide thirty eight by five and now it's more like seven and a half. Colleen: Totally. Jamie Munro: at at a certain point you're just gonna have to take fewer transfers or or fewer freshmen. So it is a reality. Colleen: I know, I think that's the hard part talking talking to a couple of the coaches. They're like we've all these people interested in their fifth year, but we only have two spots. You know what I mean? So it's like Jamie Munro: Yeah. Colleen: now it's being picky with who they're talking to about transfers too. And like not they probably want to see how they do this year too, so waiting a little bit or I don't know. Jamie Munro: Yeah. I know in men's across there's schools that have cleared space by cutting people. Do you see that happening in women's? Colleen: Mm. I think it might start to happen. I don't know if it's happened yet like the men have, but I think we're just like a little bit behind in every single thing they do. I also think flipping's gonna happen. I think people Jamie Munro: Yeah, the flip thing's big time. Colleen: chose pretty quickly and maybe didn't give the other schools in their list or give time for someone else to reach out. and just went with like the two or three that went after them hard and that could change things though. I don't know. the process is hard. Like it it's too quick and it it makes people rushed but then again the people that take a long time people get annoyed with I don't know. It's it's a it's a tough balance. Yeah. Jamie Munro: Yeah. No, it really is. I also think that one thing you see happen it honestly in men's lacrosse it is almost an automatic. Like you you don't see a whole lot of players that commit that didn't repeat a grade in men's lacrosse unless they're freaks. Colleen: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jamie Munro: If they're a freak athlete, you know, you can do whatever you want. And it's same in women's. If you're a freak athlete, you're gonna get recruited by everybody. still wanna try to you need to love it. You need to get better. There's lot to it. Colleen: Mm. Jamie Munro: But those those kids just have an inherent advantage of physicality. in men's lacrosse, it's been going on for a long time. And I think you're gonna see a ton of 28s that would have committed to schools that they're not getting to. They might have been ACC and now they're somewhere at at at a at a more mid tier, high academic, but not not the highest level. And the trickle down just continues to happen. What's your take on reclassing and repeating in women's lacrosse and in girls' lacrosse? Colleen: No, I mean it's now it's coming up kind of more than ever. It's like, do you do you repeat? Like you are a really good player. Like do you become a viable candidate in the twenty nine class? I think back to what we started with though, you have to love across if you're like if you want to do that. Do you know what I mean? Like you need Jamie Munro: All the way. Colleen: you need to wanna get better and I do believe in, you put your head down, you you work hard, good things are gonna come. And they usually do for those that those that commit to that path and do it. get better end up in a really good spot. Yeah. Jamie Munro: Totally. And it's not new. Obviously that I I sent you a couple girls I work with that were Yeah, Bailey, Colleen: Yeah, our roommates, yeah. Yeah. Jamie Munro: Alexandra, Brooke, and of yeah. Colleen: Yeah. Maggie Turner did it. I bring hers up a gap year. Yeah. Jamie Munro: so for people listening to this, basically what I my recommendation would be you got to be the best prospect you can be. And ideally you have some runway to actually really good get look get good at lacrosse. And we're gonna talk a little bit more about what that means later. But if you get mono at the wrong time or you get injured or you're from an area where you just kind of got missed and you just don't want to settle, and you love it, you don't have to settle. If you're a twenty-eight and you've gotten missed, you you can be a twenty-nine. And you don't actually have to leave your school and you could repeat the grade and go to boarding school and just become a twenty-nine that way, but you could you can you can also just play as a twenty-nine. Colleen: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: And even though you're a 28, if you can find a program that will do that. and there's no rules against it. The college coaches don't care. All they care about is getting the best player they can possibly get in that class. and so it's it's something that I think I prepared my kids for it. I mean, I remember telling Lucy when she was before September one in 2019. I was like, Lucy, look, I think you can play. I'd recruit you, but I have no idea what's going to happen. And if you really want this, just be prepared for the fact that you could probably become a 2022. And I think you'll have a a really good chance of getting what you want, which is to play lacrosse at the best school you can get to academically and athletically. And and I think it's it's not as normal in women's, but but it's very normal in men's. It's it's it you it's almost a prerequisite, honestly, unless you're a freak. So I just wanted to put that out there to people because I Colleen: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: think sometimes people get so panicked, like it's over. That's it. And it doesn't have to be. If you're good and you Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: keep working at it, it's not a magic bullet that's gonna work automatically. but it is something that, you know, if you keep working at it, you keep getting better, it can make a big difference for you. Colleen: Especially for the girls that are young for their grade, honestly. I have one of my seniors last year that was a full year younger than two of my other seniors, same grade. she ended up at a great spot and she's doing phenomenal. But it's just funny, she was playing her best across by senior year, which makes sense, you should be. Jamie Munro: No spots. Colleen: But like if she played that much better the year before, do you know what I mean? Maybe age wise, like she could have been a top five recruit. Like She's gonna dominate college through a degree, it's gonna be great, but it was just interesting to be like, wow, like she played like that last summer, her September first would have been a lot different. Yeah. Jamie Munro: Totally. And because we know that girls develop are more mature at younger ages than boys, that we have a tendency to, let a summer birthday or a fall birthday be on the younger Colleen: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: side of the class because she's ready. whereas your son is just a crazy, Colleen: Yeah, she's fine. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: it's just like becomes more normal. Colleen: Totally. Jamie Munro: for people wondering about the five and five and where the where the eligibility works out for that, Is basically you have to turn 20 when you're at college, once school c once classes have started. So in case people are kind of wondering what that means, the five and five doesn't preclude you from repeating a grade. as long as you are nineteen when you get to college and you turn twenty when you're a freshman in college, then that would work. Actually, the magic birthday is now in September. if you want to be the oldest kid in the class, that's kind of how it Colleen: Right. Jamie Munro: would work. if you're an August birthday on the very younger side of the class, you can you can be on the older side. But if you were September, you might have someone who could be an entire year, almost an entire year older than you based on the way the rules work. but it's something that's interesting and I think that I only tell people this because I think it's important to keep the faith and keep getting better and keep working at it and and you don't have to settle. You can keep going for it. so in any case, I was just a topic Colleen: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: I wanted people to sort of think about. I want to come back to the emails though. what do you think what do you think makes a good email? Like how how much time do you put into it? How long should it be? What kind of information? You know, different Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: people have different opinions on that. Colleen: It doesn't need to be too long at all. Honestly, I think just a little a quick intro about yourself. If there is a strong connection between you and the school, like my uncle went there, my sister like went there, like you know what I mean? Obviously throw that in there. A little bit about your, your bio, what other sports you play. Then you can do quick little accolades. You might not have that much right now as a twenty nine anyways, like 'cause you're kind of embarking on your first time probably being an impact player at your high school, if you're at like a really strong high school. And then Then you can throw in your highlight reel there too. You might not even have your highlight reel ready yet. You might. It just depends how much film you got. But that highlight reel just needs to keep being updated anyways on your sports recruit page with like the most relevant film. but it does not need to be some crazy novel. Like I said, I truly think they're getting so many emails in their inbox that they're not even really reading through them. But it's when they're sitting at a game, they watch, they see Jamie crushing it out there. They Google his name and their or they search his name in their in their email, they're like, He emailed us, great, he already has interest. Then they might read it a little bit more. Jamie Munro: Yeah, exactly. Totally. Colleen: You don't need to send like schedule updates either. They get it. It's like all electronic and it's they know when your games have changed. Jamie Munro: Yeah. on the highlight video thing, one of the biggest issues with highlight videos is the film quality is generally so bad. And I don't know how you feel about it, but if I were going through Colleen: Yeah. So bad. It's really bad. Jamie Munro: the process with a a twenty nine right now, I would I would be going in on it with a couple other parents of kids on my team Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: and getting really high quality video to be able to create a really high quality highlight video. Colleen: Totally agree. Jamie Munro: You just can't have this too. Colleen: It's not that expensive if you group together. I just set up one of your clients, with one of my film guys that did a great job with a couple of twenty-eights. and it it allows you to rewatch film and learn from it too. So like Jamie Munro: Yeah, tell me. Colleen: we got were fortunate enough to film the other day. We went to a Hopkins play day was really good for one of our games, so it was great. We did a whole team zoom because you could actually see. Who's who, and you can see the players where the other ones that you are like miles away. It's like not even worth it. I'm helping a girl that's not committed yet as the 28th, and I watched your highlight rails. you're not they're not gonna say anything about you right now because they can't even find who you are on the field. Like, I know you're circled, but I you can't even tell what you're doing. So they're Jamie Munro: Yeah. Colleen: gonna say they happen to see you in person too. They might say that regardless, but it's like you can still get a better vibe and be like, I can see what this kid's doing. Jamie Munro: Totally. And the nuances of what you're doing is so key. if you're a very skilled player, a lot of the moves you're gonna make are subtle. They're subtle little hesies and hitches and fakes and Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: like, you know, when you look like a little ant out there and the the or they just completely miss what you're doing. it's impossible to really see Colleen: Yeah. Most likely they're just gonna say I can't give you an answer, like not applicable, Jamie Munro: Thank you. Colleen: like I need to watch her play again or if she gets better film. So it just delays Jamie Munro: Yeah. Well Colleen: the answer, honestly. So you're already waiting, you want answers, you want coaches to give you feedback and they can't if it's not clear. Jamie Munro: And the highlight video is so key because it gets you on the board. You know, like Colleen: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: b basically they're gonna have to see you anyway, right? I mean, they can't just base it on that. But what they can do is be pretty excited about you based on a highlight video. Colleen: No sé. Jamie Munro: Be like, that girl's sick. I need to see her. and they do need to see you live. They need to be able to see your physicality. Yeah. Colleen: I think it's good for the start and the end. So it's like, yeah, like gets a coach excited. I liked my move. I liked what I saw. And then at the end, then whether between two or three people, they're gonna go back to that film a lot. and be like, All right, let's let's compare this girl to this girl, you know, and it and it does matter. Jamie Munro: What are your thoughts on the super tight sideline versus really high quality that's a little bit above where you can actually see more of the context? Colleen: I would say see more of the contacts is ideal, but I don't know how hard that is to get. Honestly, f especially for honestly, both sides of the ball, defense and offense, to see the slide, to see like where it came from. To a lot of times people say, like, I'd like to see more of this kid without the ball. Jamie Munro: Yeah. Colleen: or I'd like to see a full set. so in that regard that answers your question. it's better to get some of the sideline quick the ones that you see on Instagram all the time, those reels, those are great for a cool Yeah, Jamie Munro: Mm-hmm. Colleen: and a like, but it's not actual IQ them as a player. Jamie Munro: They're really cool for the actual dodge Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: or the check or whatever that's in tight. Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: Yeah, the context is so key. I'll tell you something actually that's kind of interesting. I had this girl that's now at Stanford do and a couple other girls too. One girl that went to Virginia is I was like, if you especially if you're on a club team that's doing this stuff, but I was like, you should be able to have a highlight video from a tournament, just a tournament. with all of the advantages that you create off ball. And just think about this. if you run enough actions and your teammates will work with you and you have a program that's doing that, you may only score a few goals, because like Tim and I were talking on our podcast, you don't get people don't get fed that that open. But but if you are that active and that smart off ball where you are creating advantages for yourself and your teammates By getting people open with picks and seals or getting yourself open by getting people to pick for you or slips. and I had these girls do it and it was very impactful. I mean, they literally had like a three or four minute video just from one tournament with endless Colleen: Thank you. Jamie Munro: advantages being created. And that's something that I I don't think a lot of people have really thought of. And coaches, I think they'd be interested in that because everybody knows Colleen: I think that's a good Jamie Munro: you have to have that. Regardless of how you play. Colleen: Yeah. And I think that's like the difference maker between those that are get get on the field and those that aren't. there's a million kids that are super athletic and can run by someone. Do you know what I mean? So there aren't a million kids that get the nuances, that get how to work with other people, that get how to accurately work off ball, to know to stop cutting to the ball you know what I mean? And and activate their depender. Like in my games this weekend I I Talked about activating your defender, I think 80,000 times. I was like, I you guys are moving, I understand, but you're not actually engaging your defender. You're moving in respect to our own teammates. You know what I mean? So they're moving towards Jamie Munro: Yeah, yes, yes. Colleen: the ball or they're moving because they want the ball. They weren't actually ever moving to like move their defender to a different spot. Jamie Munro: Right. And said in another way, what I say to all the athletes I work with is that you should be trying to help your offense create advantages in every second of a possession, which could be clearing space, but it could it could be getting into the blind spot on the backside, or it could be running an action, or it could be getting somebody open, or it could be providing an outlet if they need an outlet. but so often they're just standing around waiting for the ball. And it's Colleen: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: it's fine if you're that good of an offensive player. Maybe they were you know, Dodger, maybe they recruit you anyways, but but man, that level of IQ, that's what team offense is and and that's how you win. Colleen: Totally. Yeah. It's just so predictable if you if you don't do that. Do you know what I mean? Like it's just like, all right, well, our best dodger's gonna try and dodge through two or three people. She might get through right now, it might be called a charge. Or it might be a goal that's probably not gonna be a goal at the next level. So it's like it's hard it's really hard. And I I think they probably get frustrated with me, but I and you know it takes time, it just takes buy in and just to keep like and once they get it and they're moving all together, it just moves so much easier. And I keep telling them, I could draw up a play for you, and we could have our top person score seven out of ten times, and that's great. And maybe we'd win by one instead of lose by two or three right now. But it's not gonna help you at the showcase, it's not gonna help you at the camp, it's not gonna help you when you can't call this play. Like you need to learn how to become a IQ lacrosse player. Like you need to learn how to move without the ball and with the ball without me structuring something for you to create a wide open lane. Jamie Munro: So true. that that could take us into a really cool segment Colleen: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: on how you actually have to train, but I think we'll come back to that. I want to chat a little bit now about your opinion on what coaches are looking for based on different positions. so let's just start off with defenders. first question, I guess, along those lines, or to tee it up is Are coaches looking to recruit straight defenders? Or are they generally I mean, a lot of people will say I just want a bunch of middies and I'll make them into defenders. What's your take on that? And what are they looking for in defenders? Colleen: Yes and no. I've had amazing defenders go to top schools. but you need you need to be athletic and you need to be fast and you need to be like making an impact. And you can't not touch the ball. You you need to be a part of the clear. you need to be all over the place, you know, if you're gonna be that defender that goes to the next level. Like A C C Big Ten, do you know what I mean? Like if not they're gonna take a midfielder that they'll just convert back down there. So that really means like you need to be out showing that you can own your matchup, sh own your one on one. Like they can't get by you. You're getting the ground balls, you're handling the you're handling the clear, you're showing your stick work, and you're doing all of that. You can't be sitting back. That's why I kinda am a big proponent of man to man in in Club Lacrosse. I just am. It just shows your athleticism. And I play as one in my high school team. I just have times fifty more practices to put it in, you know, and Work on it and you can call timeouts and i you have eighty times more minutes. but this actually shows good one on one defense. You can get out there pressure, you're not sitting back and not doing anything and like waiting for them to make a mistake. you gotta go make the cause turnovers. Jamie Munro: Yeah. It's pretty interesting topic. I mean, I think sometimes with zone you can like actually pressure more. But I think Yeah. Yeah. Colleen: Totally. It depends on the zone. Yeah, yeah. It just so like one hundred percent. So like I I mean there's times when we're man down, we are in a zone, and when we're man up, we're in a zone, So it's like you're doing both there. and teaching those concepts. I just think when we're in our normal seven on seven, just keeping the principles of man and man. Every school when you get there is gonna teach principles of man and man before you move to a zone, I'd say. It depends, I guess, on what zone they play, but you need to s be able to keep someone in front of you, right? Jamie Munro: Yeah, I Colleen: and so I think that's just too important. I think being involved in the clear, those ones of my defenders are the ones that get picked up and seen first. Jamie Munro: Yeah. Colleen: The ones that hang back and don't really want the ground ball or get it and give it right back to the goalie. Yes, obviously you need to make the right play. But not having your hands on the ball as a defender is not going to get you the looks you need. Jamie Munro: You have to be able to clear it. You gotta be able to punt return and clear it. And then if you get two or three on Colleen: also and also being Exactly. Jamie Munro: you, you move it, but you gotta be able to run it. If you watch if you watch College Across, that's pretty much how the the ball gets cleared. which is Colleen: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: kind of funny because like at younger levels you always hear people saying like, Go back for the ball, attackers help them. No. Attackers get out of the way and let your defenders Colleen: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, get up here. Jamie Munro: or middies leg it over, and if they get doubled or tripled, swing to the other side and somebody else is gonna leg it. Colleen: Totally. Yeah. So I think that's the biggest thing defensively. There are less spots, so a school might take only one or two. You know, so it's like you're fighting for less, which in that regard, yes, they're taking less defenders, you know what I mean? Or they're not gonna take I'd rather take five middies and one defender than three middies and three defenders, you know. So they're just gonna take less. Jamie Munro: It's really interesting though because what what would you say the percentage of playing man to man or zone is at the at the D one level? Colleen: I think it's definitely shifted to more zone. yeah. think there's only very Jamie Munro: It's more. One would think that if you were gonna play zone, and a lot of teams do, I mean most teams do. Colleen: Yeah. But even at Northwestern, we were like one of the first schools to actually play a zone. We were playing it back when I was there. and I'm old now, you know what I mean? So like we were playing a zone, but it was a very athletic high pressure zone. Like we Jamie Munro: Sure, yeah. Colleen: weren't playing that if we weren't like the best athletes out there. so I mean it in a way of like you need that athleticism speed, you need to be able to like, you know, handle your matchup and know your angles and all that stuff. But Yeah, so not like a sitting back waiting type of zone. Yeah. Jamie Munro: Totally. Well, how many sitting back zones do we see in division one anyway? I mean no. Colleen: Not as many anymore. I think a couple even like I would say Colorado's used to be not be high pressure. They shifted this year big time. It helped them Jamie Munro: Big time. Colleen: a ton. but the the teams are the girls are just too skilled. You can't. They can shoot around people. They can they can feed like that. Jamie Munro: Well, they can feed it. the bottom line is is that there's there's so many open people in zone that if you don't get ball pressure, they're gonna find open people. And when you pack it in, you can it you know, without the pressure, you can kinda pack it inside sort of sometimes, but they're just gonna feed on you and then you have to follow cutters farther and then all of a sudden it's almost like you're playing man to man 'cause you gotta keep following cutters and your zone gets so distorted. Colleen: Right. Jamie Munro: You know, whereas people can be open against Colorado's zone. Every time you look, you should be you're like, we should be able to score on this. We should be able to score Colleen: Right, you're like the girl's open but you can't get it. Jamie Munro: on this. Same with a Stony Brook or Hopkins, whatever. I do think that you know, I mentioned this on my podcast with Kelly. I think that the way that they were able to switch between man to man and zone was so important. and they probably Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: have been better at their zone if they only played zone and maybe better at their man if they only played man, but they really threw offenses for a loop by by being able to Colleen: I try and do that too, high school wise too. It's like all right, it takes it takes a timeout, you gotta use a timeout to go over what offense you're doing, unless that offense that you're going against is they can flow from one offensive set to the other. It it takes time to adjust. And usually you get excited, they're finally clicking with their zone offense and then you shift it back to man to man, it's hard. Yeah. Jamie Munro: Yeah. All right, let's talk about let's talk about middies. I mean in Colleen: Mm. Jamie Munro: my opinion you're if you're a midi, you're either a two way midi or you're an attacker. do you agree with that statement? Colleen: Yeah. Yeah. Or it's like you're a two way MIDI or you're a defen you know I mean? Like I've had yeah, I've had middies gonna Jamie Munro: Or a defender. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Colleen: be a defender in college. I'll keep you a MIDI for the f next four years I'm gonna help you. Jamie Munro: Yeah. Colleen: But I know you're gonna get moved to defense the moment you get there and I was right, those both those girls are playing defense. I'm like it's gonna get you on the field. you know what I mean? So it's it's fine. Yeah. Jamie Munro: sure. I would say two A's are probably among the most coveted positions on the field and maybe the one of the hardest to find. Would you agree with that? Colleen: Agreed. Yeah. The stamina to just be able to play the high level IQ lacrosse. That's inspected. Jamie Munro: to be able to be that good on offense and be that big of a beast on defense and be able to really do Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: that. how many schools do you think are playing All straight mids, how many you think are playing two straight mids with one A mid, one D mid, or one straight mid with two and two? Colleen: I would say ideal would be well, having three straight mids would be phenomenal, but you probably don't have like two full lines of that, so you probably like split it up, you know what I mean? So it's like Jamie Munro: Yeah. Colleen: two, two and one. But I would say two straight mids with an A mid D mid is probably what a lot of like the top top are doing, and then like repeating that on the second line. but then I I'd say a lot might have the one straight with two A mids, two D mids, because Jamie Munro: Yeah. Colleen: of how like you said It's really rare to find an amazing two way that can play at the level of lacrosse that you see at Yeah. Jamie Munro: It can really play. Yeah. Cause it comes down to efficiency. I mean, in Men's lacrosse, everyone's like, We're gonna play two A mids, you know, we're gonna run and then they like never can because Colleen: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: they realize their defense is a lot better with the kids that are actually focusing on defense the whole time. And Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: their offense is a lot better when they get their actually best offensive players out there. They're Colleen: Especially like we just talked about that more playing zones. There's so many things with zones and you can't be tired. you can't forget about your your role and like if one thing breaks down the zone, they're scoring. So sometimes as a two way, like maybe you can cover like the one of the not top dodgers, right? Like if you're playing man, but it's not the case. Yeah. Jamie Munro: Yeah. Yeah. I know Northwestern for the last I don't know, I think four years has pretty much gone with six attackers and six defenders with one straight MIDI on each one. Colleen: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jamie Munro: So they were able to get away with like two straight midis. I I think they would probably, you know, if they had more, they'd probably maybe run more streams, you know. Colleen: Right. I think you want them, but like I think that's what I was saying, like realistically it's probably one and then two A mids, two D mids, but I think ideal, maybe two straight, two straight, one A mid would D mid, but you want the Jamie Munro: Yeah. If you can do it. Colleen: best attackers on the field and sometimes people change for man up. You know what I mean? Like, all right, we're gonna shift Jamie Munro: Yeah, all of it. Colleen: to, two A mids every time we're man up. Jamie Munro: But i efficiency on offense and defense is the name of the game. And what people worry about is the transition game that you might lose or might give up. but if you can have athletic defenders and D mids that can push the ball, you know, you should be able to do that. The same way in Mensacross, Colleen: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: that their defensive personnel and long poles can be very effective in transition. I think the transition defense part of it is what people kind of get worried about. But honestly, if you take good shots and you don't have bad turnovers, you you're gonna be able to get people off. You know, you just get Colleen: It gets back to the IQ. Like y that's why Jamie Munro: Yeah. Colleen: that Middie might not be on the field, is 'cause she just took a bad shot. Right? So it's like right, Jamie Munro: Doubt, no doubt. Colleen: you know what I mean? So it's like, all right, n that's why you are a demit, right? Jamie Munro: so many, and it's sad, but there's so many girls that grow up right handed middies that run down the righty alley and shoot that shot. Honestly, every Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: time I would watch a Northwestern game when I would watch a team taking alley shots, then I knew we were probably gonna win. Even if they stuck a couple of 'cause you're not gonna stick all day long. And you're just Colleen: Right. Yeah. No. Jamie Munro: basically basing your offense off bad angles. Colleen: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: And You know, and I think that that's something that is it's just so obvious. But that's a good segue Colleen: Okay. Jamie Munro: into the offense. So when you when you think about this, if you want to be a defender, you pretty much have to be that freak athlete. Colleen: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: You you could probably get on the field as a really smart player in play zone, but it's harder to get recruited that way. and when you talk about the two ways, you're also talking about kind of like kind of that freak. And and and where the real opportunity is is to be very, very skilled on offense. And you need some freak athletes out there like a Madison Taylor and you need you need those Colleen: Totally. Jamie Munro: girls that can blow by people. But there is room for those amids and attackers that are versatile enough to be excellent against man to man and excellent against zone. what are some of the characteristics that you think about Colleen: honestly, I think just like you we talked a bit a lot about IQ, but I need my my attackers, especially my high school team, you need to make the right decisions. You know what I mean? you're out there because I rely on you more to make the right decisions with the ball than maybe my athletic MIDI, you know? When especially I'm talking about my high school too. and you need to be a threat in both ways. So you need to be a feeding and a scoring threat. yes, you can be You can be one way better than the other. But it needs to to you need to have a collaboration of both, I think, to be that highly touted attacker that's gonna get recruited. Jamie Munro: Totally. Well, especially against zone. Colleen: Exactly. So it's like, all right, someone's like, I had 90,000 goals. I'm like, Yeah, but you had two assists, you know? So it's like, I know you had the most goals on my team this year, but your dualness and The way people can scout you is pretty easy. You're never gonna feed the ball, right? so not that that person's bad at all, but it just compliments them as a player if you can really do both. So it's like you need to be able to feed and score, and then we go back to the off ball, like getting people open and moving and putting people on angles and communicating out there and and knowing what you're doing on offense is gonna get you out on the field. we can talk about Lucy for days, like she did that for herself. Like she knew the offense. She's a high IQ player, she Constantly communicated, she constantly was trying to work to get people open. People wanted to play with her because she's working to get other people open and it rewards her playing, you know, at a national championship program. or maybe she wasn't that number one attacking recruit like Madison Taylor, Izzy Skeiner, Aaron around her, but she complimented them so well. So you need the the alphas that are like, you know, Izzy's a phenomenal dodger, she's one of the best I've seen going downhill, and her power and size. but you can't have seven of them. Jamie Munro: I mean, Izzy's, I think, incredible off ball too, actually. I mean, I feel like Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: that that's how she could score 10 goals in a game, just to give Colleen: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: Izzy some props. But yeah, and I think the idea is, you know, how can you make people around you better? That's really what high IQ players do. They make people around them better. And when you say like somebody wants to play with somebody, it's because they know how to move the ball at the right time. They know how to not just be a great feeder, but actually just really good at drawing people to you and and setting somebody else up. I talk a lot about this with my staff and with the athletes I work with, but it's almost like just to be able to create an advantage pass. a if you can pass to somebody and create where they're receiving it and there's an approach to them, the defender has to approach them, it's so simple. Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: But that's what zone offense really is: is how can you get a couple of people on you and give somebody else some time to make a play? but I want to Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: go back, you've used the word IQ, I've used the word IQ. You know, what what is IQ and how do you work? Colleen: I think it's watching lacrosse. Like you'd be surprised how many of my girls that like love the game and want to play at a top level that don't watch enough lacrosse. they need to watch film, they need to watch lacrosse, they need to see like the way it moves. And then and it's like really understanding the game without the ball. So like I think it's truly like you said, like you don't need to you don't need to go on the wall for an hour, but we you need you'd probably be better off like watching film and actually like watching nuances of the game than you are like hitting the wall for an hour in the same spot. I I think it's truly learning to manipulate your defender. I don't think it's talked about enough. I think people work on and I do shooting drills all the time for like my hands and shooting and rapiding out, but like I think people just get so in the habit of being a magnet to their own teammate. Like here, here the little kids, like it drives me crazy. They're like here, here, here, here and I'm like, stop saying Jamie Munro: Yeah. Colleen: here. Like you must get out of the way. Like you're not even open anymore. And then they still passed it because the fourth year really got them. And they thought they had to pass it through it. Yeah, Jamie Munro: Ha ha ha. Colleen: yeah. So I think, I think really learning Jamie Munro: It's so true. Colleen: to manipulate your defender. And I I don't know that answer. I've obviously I yeah, I've listened to you, I do it all Jamie Munro: Yeah, it's a tough it's a tough question. I I think about it all the time. Colleen: your stuff and you know, like I watch all the transforming basketball and like, you know, what are little things that you can learn to help them understand it? But I think it just takes time and it takes maturity and like loving the game to keep watching it. Jamie Munro: Yeah. So, when you think about IQ, you think about decision making, you think about manipulating, you think about off ball, all these things we're talking about, you know, from an ecological perspective, an ecological dynamics perspective, which you know, I'm wicked into. really what it is is your ability to recognize opportunities. That that's like the simplest way to think of. Colleen: Yeah. Simple drill, and I don't know if I got this from you or I got it some like for the little kids is like recognizing it's literally just a you have a ball on attack and then there's a defender that's gonna decide to slide to you or stay with the other person. And Jamie Munro: Right. Colleen: if they slide to you, you must pass it. If they stay with the other person, you can go. And it is crazy that little kids still don't get it. The person will slide and they'll still dodge. Yeah. Jamie Munro: Well, even big kids, that's how these zones work. You the d elbow girls on you and you throw it back, but but she was only halfway and she snaps right back and you've got nothing. And this is Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: where deception becomes so important. In that exact example, if Colleen: Right, like faking them over there. Jamie Munro: you fake it to that girl, you're probably gonna either be in yourself or get full commitment. But the Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: the the whole idea of recognition of opportunities and acting on the opportunities, there are opportunities to make plays in every second of a possession, no matter whether you have the ball, you're next to the ball, backside from the ball. We talked about that. How can I help my offense score in every second of a possession? Well, you're recognizing opportunities based on the coverages. And back to what you were saying, you can't learn any of it on a wall against cones. You can. Film is very helpful for understanding, you know, what a coverage is. And we use a Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: lot of film, but you actually have to do it. And I also want to make this point. Variability. The majority of what kids do practice is the same thing over and over and over and over. If it's the same Colleen: So I've been on this thing and I think you talked about it a while ago. I've been an anti shuttle line person now. I'm like I can't I can't watch them do shuttles because the same little kids pass through sticks overhand Jamie Munro: Exactly. Colleen: all the time. I'm like either add them as a defender so they have to pass around it. If not, just don't you Jamie Munro: Something or to keep away. Colleen: Yeah, don't I just do keyboard all the time for my warm up but like it's crazy. I think shuttle lines actually are the start of the bad habit. of the lack of variability. So they Jamie Munro: Totally. Colleen: they don't move their hands around the stick to pass. They just pass because this is the only way that they pass. Like, yeah. Jamie Munro: if we wanted to think about variability in the context of the example you gave where there's this two-on-one, you can figure out ways to create two-on-one situations from all different angles in all different situ, you know, maybe you have a two-on-two where you give the dodger a little bit of an advantage so that it's gonna create this two-on-one with this slider, or maybe you do it. Out of a four on four, it's still gonna be the same advantage. Start with a slider where you begin to recognize how to make a defender commit to you to make the pass or commit away from you. But when you watch the majority of training universally, and it's it's too bad because these girls are all intuitive. Every athlete is in their own way, some maybe more so than others, but If you practice on walls and you practice against cones and on speed ladders and against empty nets, you're learning zero decision making. And then when you get to practice, when you just do the same West Jenny drill or the same drill over and over and over, it's like reading the same book over and over. you gotta read new material. I just can't stress it enough how important it is If you want to be great, you need to be very adaptable, which means you got to play against all these different coverages, all with all sorts of different actions, with all different situations. And I think that's honestly what a skillful player can do is they can play with Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: anybody in any situation and recognize the opportunities that are presenting themselves all day long. The majority Colleen: Really. Jamie Munro: of one on ones is always a long dodge. Start from outside the twelve, run in as fast as you can. that works at the youth level and even the club level where there's not a a lot of coordinated defense. Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: That doesn't work against Penn Charter. If you know it's coming, Colleen: No. Jamie Munro: you're gonna have a you're gonna have an answer for Colleen: Right, totally. Like rarely do you score on an isolated one on one. I have like a set that starts with that, but never does that actual dodger score. They Jamie Munro: Yeah. Colleen: have to read if the slide came or if it come and then when you hit the outlet forward or backwards and hopefully the backside's not standing and watching. 'Cause if the backside's standing and watching, nothing happens. It all comes back Jamie Munro: yeah. Colleen: to like the off ball movement, honestly. For the one on Jamie Munro: Another thing. Colleen: one dodge, too. Like the one on one dodge is not gonna be open if the Backside's not moving. it could be. But it happened because of your teammates creating that activating their defenders. Their defenders are turning around, they're watching them and they're not able to slide. Yeah. Jamie Munro: Exactly. before this call started, you you were mentioning how much you were trying to get your girls to run simultaneous actions, which would Colleen: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: basically we're talking about picking and dodging actions on both sides at the same time. you know, Tim and I were talking about this on a podcast recently, and you know, you and I have been talking about two-man game for a long time. And it's I think being excellent in two-man game is probably the biggest opportunity for attackers that they could have because if you're great at it you don't actually have to be more athletic than everybody and if you already Colleen: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: are more athletic ever than everybody and you're great at it then you're Madison Taylor. Like if Madison Colleen: Totally. Yeah. Jamie Munro: Taylor only dodged she scored a million dodging goals out of the two man but she learned how Colleen: Right. Jamie Munro: to manipulate it and not run into switches and go back and forth and her teammates learned how to set picks that were actually creating advantages. Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: can you talk a little bit about your thoughts on that and how you try to develop it? Colleen: No, I mean we do it all the time. I honestly don't even do one on ones anymore. Or if I do do a one on one, it's it's mainly for the defense. Like if the defense forces them down, you're automatically in a two v two all the time. So that's how I set up my like one on ones. or if I'm in like a bad mood, because one on ones absolutely sting for the defense of like, we're gonna do one on ones. but yeah, I mean it's working and I think we've talked about this before, like Getting our offense to talk. So defense you're always like c communicate, switching, staying, all that stuff. Like offense should be talking if not more than the defense. Like getting them to actually be on the same page. Like you see all your your kids, like when they're like point it you can point and like you pointing and being deceptive and creating variability can get the defender there's there's your deception, then you're going. There's your one on one dotch, you know, getting them to to talk and almost talk about switching and then all of a sudden you you do the opposite. so I think it's just adding a level of game over where you're actually reading the defense. We talked about reading the defense, like you have to read the defense to become a great two man game player. you can't just be like, yeah. You can't just be like I'm going to split, Jamie Munro: It's that context. Yeah. The context of like there's Colleen: roll, dodge. You can't. Like Yeah. Yeah. Jamie Munro: You can't just long dodge into it, you're gonna run right into a switch. And that's why some people don't like it. But when you slow down enough to read it, Colleen: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: and the and and all of a sudden they're thinking about switching, and you recognize that, and and you sort of come back to your original girl and you don't let them have this switch, and all of a sudden the picker exits. I mean Two-man game is dodging. It's just dodging in the context Colleen: Really? Yeah. Jamie Munro: of the defense having to make different decisions. And it's it's so much easier to beat somebody that way because maybe if they think you're using the pick, you can reject it. Or if you rejected it last time, you can sell the reject and get an easy step towards the pick. It teaches the IQ of the game so much better than Colleen: Remember. Jamie Munro: and so for like everybody out there, Learn how to do it. Your club team may not Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: do it. Your high school team may not. But when you go to prospect camps, they will be picking. And these college teams are are more and more and more running two-man games as a part Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: of their offense. Obviously, Northwestern has been doing it now for a lot of years. And honestly, they've they've really gone on their run in the last seven years with get just getting better and better at better at doing this. Hopkins, you know, obviously went from Tim's first year to year four into the final four running this Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: offense. Colorado was like an overtime goal away from being in the final four running an offense like this. Now they were a defense heavy team, but their their offense allowed Matty Shoop to dominate. If she had to Colleen: Sure. Jamie Munro: isolate, there's no way she's gonna put up the kind of number she put up. yeah. So Colleen: Agreed. And honestly, it allowed for the old school compet concept of Jamie Munro: Yeah. Colleen: give and goes, like Spain is that, in a way. You hit the other action. Jamie Munro: Totally. there's so many ones. Colleen: Yeah, so you merge the old school stuff with the it allows that stuff to actually be open. Do you know what I mean? So it's like it's fun to watch. I Jamie Munro: It does a hundred percent. Well and also Colleen: love not manipulating my offense and we got pretty High school team was fantastic this year, we just got better and better and I had to coach less. Like people are we calling more and more? I'm like, No, I called less because they're they're figuring each other out. Yes. Yeah. Jamie Munro: Right. They're reading it. 100%. The other thing is that it makes players so much more adaptable in zone. The pure long knowledge Colleen: Mm-hmm. Totally. Jamie Munro: one-on-one is why people run zone against really athletic midfield teams because that's easier to guard with a zone. Anytime you're playing two-man game and it's a switch, that's the same thing that happens when you're being passed off in zone and those throwbacks. Colleen: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: And the manipulation of defenders and understanding how to shoot gaps and all of that, your two-man game develops zone players way better than your traditional long dodging. And so for Colleen: Agree. Jamie Munro: all of you out there, practice your two-man. Do it in with you know, pickup like small net games and tennis balls. Do it with your friends when you go out there. and then if you can actually understand what the coverages are. Which is basically the defender on ball has got two options, over and under. And the pickers defender can either step up and help or not. When you begin to read that and see it, that's what when we talk about IQ, that's the recognition of the opportunity. they're switching. I can slip this. they're staying. I'm gonna stick this pick and be able to bring this girl over or reject it. And so it's it's really it's a lot of fun to coach, too, isn't it, Kyle? Colleen: Really, so much fun. It's fun when they get it and they see it and then like I said, you almost you know, you're empowering your players. Jamie Munro: So much fun. all right. Last question for you. you think about how you get looks. obviously high school your most important thing, but you don't get to be viewed that much in high school, and you know, especially for the teams that are going deep into the playoffs. you've got your club team, which all the coaches are going to the club events, you've got showcases. And then you've got prospect camps. How do you sort of advise people on the balance? Given the fact you're gonna play your high school, you're gonna play your club. What are the what are the balance between showcases and prospect camps? What do you think is most important there? And how does that work? Colleen: Yeah, I think you definitely need to get to the actual college camps. And there's some people that truly value it, like a Northwestern and or Tim probably is the same way, because they just like want to work with the athlete. you can get that at a showcase, but it's just not guaranteed that it's the head coach and it's not guaranteed how much time you'll get. So like I do recommend the showcases, especially right now as a twenty nine, getting into it. To really get a feel for like, all right, I like the way that coach coached, I like that style, it has a certain connection, little things like that. and then that'll help you kind of pick and choose what what specific college camp you're gonna have to get to. Obviously, you can't go to 30 college camps, but you wanna be mindful of the ones you go to, you wanna make sure you have someone in your corner helping your club coach or someone being like, okay, you are on this list, like this makes sense, or you're not. They've seen you play a ton, let's not waste their time. We're not going back to that one. And we might get an answer like, hey, they're in the they're in the top group. We're not sure. I'm like, all right, let's go. Give it your long last chance and then we'll move on. so I think that's important to know before you go to those those specific college ones, where you are on the list. And y you should kind of get a gauge in the summer. If it's the beginning of the summer, some of the coaches might like, I haven't seen her enough to give you an answer. Or You know, I have seen enough and I think it's lower on our list. but I I think s different than the boys. I think boys right, you don't go to many of the actual college camps. I think girls, it's definitely valued more. for the hands on yeah. Jamie Munro: You gotta go. How many do you think you know, if you were to put a number on and how many you think you need to get to starting follow something? Colleen: Luckily it's moved to not those long three day camps as much. So it's definitely more practical to get to like five or six throughout the summer, not including the August ones. so I think you can get to five or six actual college one day camps, plus your four tournaments, plus you're still gonna go to like I'd say go to a showcase on the front end, like I do run a Philly's finest one on the beginning end for a reason. So that like you see twenty five coaches before you embark on going to the their actual camps. Same thing in the wintertime. I'm like go to the showcase instead. You can get in front of twenty five schools instead of one school. You can still go to one of the winter camps, but there's not a million. And you're probably gonna have to go again. So it's like the winter camp right now doesn't check the box that you're not going again in the summer. That's the one caveat some people are like, I'm gonna go there Jamie Munro: Yeah, especially. Colleen: because I'm not gonna go. I have four more I have to get to the summer. It's like no Jamie Munro: 'Cause they're gonna have to see you again. And you're so you should be such a different player next July Colleen: Yes. Jamie Munro: or June or August than you are this December. Colleen: Exactly. Jamie Munro: yeah, it's true. if you get to five or five or six in June and July and then you may be able to get to like one, two, or three or Colleen: And h they might have seen you enough and they'd be like, I don't need to see you in August Or they'll be like, You know what, she's on the cusp, we'd really love her one more time. And hopefully you get someone that's kinda getting you those answers. And then you Jamie Munro: Thank you. Colleen: you might have to keep going in the fall. I have a couple that are going right now Jamie Munro: Yeah. Colleen: that are heading to a couple camps and I'm like, Hey, they have three spots, you're fighting for one of go get it and then we'll go from there. Jamie Munro: To me, if you're on a really good club team that plays team lacrosse, that's going to be your best opportunity. unless you're Colleen: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: a freak athlete, you can show up anywhere. But but if if Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: you're if you're a high IQ player, it's gonna be team play that's gonna allow you to excel the most. would you agree with that? Colleen: Agreed. Yeah. Jamie Munro: And and that's the tricky part with showcases is naturally it's hard to have great team play just because you you have played together. Colleen: Totally. You can have the best showcase and it can be the best thing for you, and you can have the worst one and it didn't really make a too big of a difference. you know what I mean? It might just be Jamie Munro: Yeah, no. Colleen: like, Hey, I didn't get to see her do much. So I think sometimes Jamie Munro: Yeah. Colleen: athletes are like, my god, I played so bad. It's it's okay. one, you probably didn't play as bad as you truly think. And at a showcase, there's so many coaches there and it's so like different and the plays different that they're it's not their end all be all evaluation. Jamie Munro: Yeah, no doubt. I mean you might not even get the ball, right? Yeah. Colleen: Where I think it it could Exactly. Like I I've been at them, I've been coaches at best in class and my own showcases and sometimes I didn't really even see that kid and she's like a five star. Do you know what I mean? it wasn't her fault, but Jamie Munro: Yeah. Yeah. Colleen: they did their team didn't win the draw. Maybe they had someone that went to the law every single time. Doesn't mean that kid's not gonna get recruited, but maybe she didn't get on a couple lists that she might that another kid did. You know, it's not the end of the world. Yeah. Jamie Munro: I think we don't have time to chat about it. Maybe we'll do it another podcast, but I think there are some really interesting strategies about how you can play better at showcases. but I think the college camps, you know, when they scrimmage, it's kind of like a showcase. You're probably not going to get a Colleen: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: lot of team play. But the nice part is that you're doing a lot of drills and the coaches are usually doing the drills that, you know, are meaningful to them and when you can pick up on it. and you clearly are communicating and you know what you're doing Colleen: Yeah. Jamie Munro: and you can show the nuances of your game in the context of team play. let's remember the way you win is with team play. and although we coaches have to recruit these stud athletes, they also need the IQ, which is back to the whole idea of like, how can I be helping my team score or defend in every second of a possession? that's what it's all about. Colleen: Agreed. Jamie Munro: well, Colleen, Colleen: Yeah, no. Jamie Munro: Awesome to talk lax with you. we gotta do this again sometime soon. I gotta follow up with you on a few other topics. Colleen: Okay. Jamie Munro: enjoy your fall. Thanks for hopping on and great Colleen: Thank you. Jamie Munro: to see you. Colleen: I know. Hopefully back. We d be back sooner. I can't wait another year. All right, bye Jane. Jamie Munro: Alright, bye. Sara Munro: Thanks for listening to the JM three lacrosse podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe, rate, and share with a teammate or coach who loves the game. We'll see you next time.