Latest / The Conscious Divorce / Prenups & Postnups: Protection, Power, and Peace of Mind in Modern Relationships
Transcript
- Justin Milrad: Here's something most people won't say out loud. The strongest marriages aren't just built on love. They're built on clarity, on honest conversations about money, expectations, and what happens if life doesn't go according to plan. and I know that might make some of you uncomfortable. Good. That means you need this episode. Welcome to the Conscious Divorce Podcast. I'm Justin Milrad, and this show is for anyone navigating divorce. Rebuilding after one or making the kind of strategic decisions right now that will protect their future later. Whether you're in the middle of it or on the other side of it, or just trying to make sure you never go through it blindly, you're in the right place. But before we get started, our standard disclaimer: I'm not an attorney, therapist, or licensed mental health professional. Nothing in this episode constitutes legal advice, financial advice, or therapeutic advice. The information shared here is for educational and informational purposes only. Every situation is unique. If you're navigating divorce or considering a prenuptial or postnuptial agreement, please consult with a qualified attorney and financial professional in your jurisdiction. Now let's get into it. Today we're going deep on a topic that carries more emotional baggage than almost anything in family law prenuptial and postnuptial agreements. And I brought in one of the sharpest legal minds in the country to break it all down. Not with legal jargon, not with scare tactics, but with clarity, strategy, and the kind of insight that only comes from decades in the trenches. My guest today is Lisa Ziderman. Lisa is a managing partner at Miller Ziderman LLP in New York. She's a certified financial litigator. A certified divorce financial analyst, a founding member of the American Academy of Certified Financial Litigators, and a member of the Forbes Business Council. And she writes for Psychology Today on the intersection of mental health and family law. She's handled some of the most complex high net worth divorce cases in the country. And here's the thing I love about Lisa. She's been through her own divorce. So she's not just talking theory. She has lived through this. Lisa, welcome to the Conscious Divorce Podcast. Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: Thanks, Justin. I'm so thrilled to be here with you and discussing all of this. Justin Milrad: The timing is really fortuitous because you don't know this yet, but I got remarried last weekend. Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: So funny. I just as you were starting to say it, I said he's gonna tell me that he's getting married. So there you go. Congratulations. Justin Milrad: Thank you. we spent two months over the summer putting together a prenup. So the timing is perfect, and I feel a little more literate on the this topic now. Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: Video. Justin Milrad: So I want to start with a big misconception because when most people hear the word prenup, their brain immediately goes somewhere negative. It goes to distrust, it goes to you're already planning an exit. And I think that's one of the most destructive misconceptions in relationships. So let me ask you right out of the gate, why do people get prenups so completely wrong? Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: Think that they are looking at the old prenup, right? They are looking at the time in our history when people came to a prenup having had it drafted, not having input into it, being handed a prenup and saying, just sign it, it'll all be okay on the day before the wedding. no attorney sometimes, no preparation, no negotiation, no transparency of assets. and really meant to protect just one of the of the two people there. And so I think it's just an old misconception is what I would say to you. Justin Milrad: And I think that's such an important distinction. I talk a lot on the show about being proactive versus being reactive. when I work with people who are going through divorce, the ones who struggle the most are the ones who've never had a financial conversation with their spouse. They never talked about what's yours, what's mine, what's ours. They just assumed love was sorted all out. And I think what people really need to know is they have a prenup whether they know it or not. It's either drafted by an attorney. Or it's drafted by the state. So that's something they really need to think about. Lisa, in your experience, what happens to couples who never have that conversation? And what does it look like when it catches up with them? Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: It looks like exactly what you just said, Justin, which is that they do have a prenuptial agreement, and their prenuptial agreement is whatever their statute or their case law in their particular state is going to determine are their rights. And that prenup has been written for them. They just don't realize that it actually exists, right? It's just out there. They don't think about it. And then they get to a place where everybody isn't particularly happy and isn't necessarily inclined to be transparent, called the divorce, right? And this is the wrong time to be having these conversations. so now they are facing difficult negotiations, lack of transparency very often, no head start to all of this in terms of having these discussions ahead of time and making sure that they understood the finances ahead of time. So they're in this tunnel, right? Trying to get through to the light at the other side when they could have just been in the light the whole time. Justin Milrad: I think that's a great metaphor. and I'll say when I work with my clients, the number one question that I get, and the number one question that creates all the stress and anxiety is, Am I gonna be okay? And if there is transparency early on, you're gonna have a better answer to whether or not you're gonna be okay. And I always say that structure creates freedom. And I think a prenup is one of the best examples of. You're really not caging in the relationship. You're giving it a framework so both people can relax and actually focus on building a life together. Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: Right. I think also that people I guess assume in some way that the law will protect them. And this is an opportunity, a prenuptial agreement is an opportunity to basically craft your own agreement together. That is a very big opportunity for a couple who is going into a marriage and who is going to be spending hopefully the rest of their lives together to be sitting down, having these discussions. being transparent about the finances, about their desires, about their expectations of the marriage and how they want to divide the finances, how they want to deal with expenses. All of these should be looked at as opportunities. They're not a negative. They are really, really a positive. And I see more and more couples coming in for prenups. Obviously we don't handle them as couples, but I see one party or another party, right, coming in And they are having these conversations now. This is becoming the new norm. This is essentially the new marriage that is is really starting, I think. Justin Milrad: And I want to remind everyone the number one reason people get divorced, it's not infidelity, it's because of finances. So if you have the transparency early on, you're also probably improving the odds that you're not going to end up in Lisa's office or my office, at least for creating a prenup. that's a good reason to be there. So let's get into the mechanics. For someone listening who's never really understood what a prenup is beyond the pop culture version. Can you break it down for us? What is a prenuptial agreement in plain non legal terms? Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: Sure, it's a contract. It's a contract between the both parties. So you and your fiance will enter into this contract, and it can be as detailed as you want it to be, as long as it's going to be enforceable under the law. And basically what it will determine usually is how assets and liabilities are divided in the event that there was a divorce. It will also could talk about what happens if one of you dies. And that's something that people often forget about. And I can't tell you how many people come in and they don't have wills, right? So this will deal with that. it could talk about what is separate property, so inherited property, property that you may be gifted, property that you're coming into the marriage with. Perhaps this isn't a first marriage for you, or perhaps it is and you already have accumulated assets. We're seeing that more and more young people having accumulated assets. Because they're in the world of tech or Wall Street. And so they've already want to make sure that they are ensuring that those assets are protected and kept separate and the appreciation on those assets. And then very detailed prenuptial agreements can deal with how restricted stock units, for example, are divided, how stock options are divided, how equity is divided. Because again, there is a lot of compensation, executive compensation being paid in those particular areas and how are those going to be divided? How are businesses going to be equitably divided? If you start a venture capital business, for example, during the marriage and you are putting in all this sweat equity, what's going to happen with it at the end? And so those are a lot of what you can talk about. You can also talk about spousal maintenance and what to do with the primary marital residence in the event of a divorce. who gets to stay, who gets to leave, who, when does somebody have to leave, or is it just gets sold? And how do we even do that? I mean, I'm doing a detailed agreement now on selling the marital residence, and those people did not have a prenuptial agreement, and now we're in the negotiation of all the things that should have just been like that, right? And had they had a prenuptial agreement, it would have been so quick and easy, and we would have just the mar the house would have been listed and that would have been the end of it. How you deal with taxes? who's going to be paying the taxes and for what. So any separate property obligations for taxes will be paid from separate property, for example, or not. So these are all the types of things that actually can be dealt with in a prenuptial agreement. Justin Milrad: another thing that I think is really important is many people don't really focus on estate planning until later in life or at all. what a prenup does, and I know this from personal experience, having just gone through this, is it really makes you think about what happens if you die, what happens to your kids, and especially if it's a second marriage, what does blending look like? What happens if you die? Can your spouse stay in the home or does it have to be sold immediately? So you can also make sure that your spouse is being taken care of, in the event of death or disability or some other major life effect. Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: Correct. and there are ways to deal with it also if you want to leave a great amount of your assets to your spouse, what about a life insurance policy for your spouse? there are ways to deal with it, but having the discussions and coming together and being creative about it is the point and that's why I think it's so important. Justin Milrad: Now can you talk a little bit about what a prenup can't do and what its limitations are? Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: So a prenup cannot deal with a child that is not born of the marriage. So if you have a child later, your prenup will not have covered it. Okay. and that means child support and custody. That is off the table if unless there is a child already born between the two parties, that then it can actually cover those issues. Justin Milrad: Right. Can you walk us through the types of people in situations where a prenup really matters beyond the obvious high net worth scenario? Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: Well, anybody who has a business, I think it matters. you're going to be looking at a lot of issues in terms of owning a business, who contributed, how much is the percentage in terms of equitable distribution, how do we go about valuing the business? should the business be valued at all? how much discovery is going to be dealt with? a lot of this can be dealt with in the prenuptial agreement, and so it would really cut out a great amount of legal fees, forensic accounting fees. It really can get the to the heart of that particular issue. The other thing I would say that we see a lot is restricted stock units. So you come into the marriage with restricted stock units that have been granted but not yet vested. What happens to those restricted stock units as they're vesting during the marriage? You think maybe because you were granted them before the marriage that they're automatically yours. And the other person at the tail end of this divorce is thinking, no, not so much, because you were working during that time during the marriage, and there are formulas for that. And then the issue at the other side, in the event that you are getting divorced, what happens to those stock grants that you get, invest after the marriage is over, those could still be. partially marital property and so it can deal certainly with those types of issues. Justin Milrad: So from a financial planning perspective, people don't necessarily think about the compounding cost of not having these conversations. it's not just what you have today, it's what you're building, what you're giving up, and the risks you're taking over twenty, thirty years. Lisa, what are the biggest mistakes people make when it comes to prenups? Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: I would say giving somebody the prenuptial agreement at the last minute to review is the biggest mistake, right? Because that person who is receiving the prenup at the last second now has to scramble for an attorney. they have to get an attorney who will be willing to review it on very short notice and under frankly a lot of stress and anxiety, right? and there's a wedding that's already been planned, and likely and the invitation sent and people coming in. from all over the world possibly or the country, and giving thinking that you get an edge by doing that I think creates a situation of mistrust in the marriage. Justin Milrad: So I want to underline and bold everything Lisa just said. The document is only as strong as the circumstances under which it was created. right, let's shift to the topic that I think is genuinely underrated and people really don't know or understand about. Postnuptial agreements. Most people don't even know that these exist. And honestly, when I'm working with coaching clients who are still married and trying to figure out their path forward, this comes up more than one might expect. Can you explain to us what a postnup is and how is it different from a pre nup? Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: Sure. So I'm gonna start off by saying that not every state recognizes postnuptial agreements. So I'm only gonna be speaking for New York. and that goes for everything that we've just talked about in terms of prenuptial. So you need to check your state jurisdiction for the rules about prenuptial agreements because in some cases there's waiting periods and other requirements. so always check. But for postnuptial agreements, I can tell you not every state does accept them. In New York, a postnuptial agreement is accepted if it's been negotiated, it's something that has been signed and acknowledged in the same form as to file a deed. It's not undress, it's not unconscionable, and it has proper consideration, meaning I got something, you got something. They don't have to be equal some things. They are essentially a prenup after the marriage. So you've gotten married, you may have forgotten to sign a prenuptial agreement or you ran out of time to get your prenuptial agreement done. happens or somebody gave it to you too late and you've all agreed that we're not gonna do this, we're not gonna have the stress and the pressure. We just want to go forward with the with the wedding and make it really fabulous and then we'll deal with all this afterwards. there's just isn't enough time. The clock is run. or it's something that you're starting to think about because maybe everything isn't so perfect right now during your marriage and And you want to ensure that everybody knows where they stand in the event of a divorce. So all of those are good, proper reasons for having a post-nuptial agreement. And essentially, it can now deal with the asset division, like we talked about, spousal support or non-spousal support, which I think we talked about, estate and will provisions, all of those same provisions. It can also deal with. If there is a child of the marriage, it can deal with child support, it could deal with custody. Now Justin Milrad: Yeah. Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: I'm going to say that those two things, custody and child support, they could be modified later because time passes and let's hope that nobody really was doing this to to just get divorced, right? So time might pass, it could be 10 years, 12 years, 15 years, and it may not be as relevant. in terms of the child has changed, child has grown, child's needs have changed, lifestyle has changed, all those things, income has changed. But you can actually contract for for all of those things that I just talked about. and it is an agreement, a contract that you are entering into with your spouse this time. Justin Milrad: Can you give us some real world triggers? when couples actually come to you and say, we need a post nup. What sort of scenarios does that typically happen? Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: So I would say it happens mostly, okay, in people who either ran out of time to finish their prenuptial agreement, happens more than you think, and or people who are feeling that their marriage is somewhat rocky and they really want to make sure because they didn't have a prenuptial agreement, make sure of what each person is getting at a time when they are wanting to still stay together and they still care about each other and they still want what's best for each other. But they just don't think that it may make it, the marriage may make it. And so this is often what we see. Justin Milrad: Sure. I would say just from my own experience with clients, if there's infidelity and, one of the partners isn't sure if they can get past it, that's a perfect time to put together a postnup. Sometimes if there's a major financial change, something else that they look at, and I will say I do have a handful of clients who had postnups, gave their marriage a couple of years. Realize that it wasn't gonna work and it made the divorce process a lot smoother, a lot quicker, a lot less expensive. And, they just moved on much quicker because they were able to answer the question, of am I gonna be okay? They're gonna know what it looks like. And that's one of the things that just drives so much stress among people going through a divorce. Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: A hundred percent. Justin Milrad: Can a post nup actually save a marriage? I know that sounds counterintuitive, but can you talk to us about what you've seen and how it's played out in some cases? Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: Sure. So I do think that a post-nup could save a marriage. And the reason I think that is that sometimes someone feels that someone else is running the show in in terms of the finances. This gives people an opportunity to be more transparent about their finances. I know that's a word we keep throwing around, but it's really an important word. And I see couples more and more coming to us for both prenups and postnups, who that's so important too. But it is much more. of a plan, everybody then can relax and actually enjoy their marriage instead of worrying about who's in control, who has this account in their name, where is the money going, what it where what is it being spent on? All of these issues can be resolved in a postnuptial agreement. Or things like, for example, you have all these school loans and I'm getting tired of paying for them and it's actually become a rift in our marriage. Or you have child support from from your previous marriage, and I don't really want the child support paid from marital funds because you have all this separate property also that you keep separate and apart. Pay it from that instead of paying it from marital funds. You have decided not to work anymore. I'm working so hard, and I feel like if I'm working so hard, I should get the bigger benefit of that. You've decided that you can live on a lot less. We obviously have different ideas about finances and retirement. You don't care if there's a lot of money in retirement. I do. And so therefore I want to make sure that I'm provided for. it's not an issue for you. You're happy to retire in a much smaller situation. Justin Milrad: Lisa, can postnups and pre-nupts be modified and in what situations does that typically happen? Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: So they both can be modified. Well, I should I should be careful about that. In New York, they can both be modified. Okay, I'm gonna say that. Because again, remember some states don't accept postnuptial agreements. So you have to go back and speak to an attorney who is is knowledgeable about your state's rules and find out if it could be modified. But in New York we can modify. Justin Milrad: Okay. and one other thing that I see often is they have a sunset clause. So if you're together for a certain number of years, you can modify it or it can just disappear, it can be ripped up, and new plans are made. So, I would just say don't ever ignore the timing on these things because you always want to make sure that you have some level of documentation to help guide you through, li life's experiences. Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: Yeah, I'm also gonna say I'd be little more cautious about these sunset clause. I'm not a big fan of them. And the reason I'm not a big fan is we see more and more gray divorces and a lot of times people will stay together because they believe that it might be better for their children or they don't want to miss seeing their children or they feel like as a family unit it would be better to stay together for a period of time and then the children go off to college or to to do whatever they do and and the divorce comes. And so I think that you have to be careful about sunset clauses. I also think that somebody watches the timing sometimes more carefully than the other with a sunset clause. So I just think generally I don't like them personally. Justin Milrad: Fair enough. Let's talk about the elephant in the room, the emotional resistance. Because even when people intellectually understand why a prenup or a post nup makes sense, they still struggle to actually do it. Can you share with us what you see as being the number one thing you hear from people who are avoiding this conversation? What is it that's eating them up? Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: So I think they think that it's not romantic, or they really don't want to have to have this discussion with their spouse to be because it may involve something to do with their families. or they they feel that they are going into a marriage and they're so excited and happy about it and they feel that this would somehow be a downer for the marriage. all of those reasons I think are reasons that people have, but I hear it less and less than I used to. Justin Milrad: What about power dynamics? Because in some relationships there's an imbalance in wealth and earning power and personality dominance. How does that typically affect the conversation? Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: it makes sometimes the conversation harder, but I think that's going to be the conversation during your marriage. So you may as well start having the conversation before you get married and figure out how that's going to affect it. Right. I think that this is an opportunity, as they said earlier, and get a great attorney and work with that attorney and make sure that you don't feel that you're signing something that you really are feeling like you're going into a marriage on shaky ground. it's really important to understand where people feel where people are in terms of their finances and how they feel about money. Justin Milrad: So here's one question that I know everyone wants to know the answer to. they're looking for some sort of playbook. So how do you actually bring up a prenup without blowing up the relationship and creating a contentious environment? Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: I'm gonna say this. I adopted my daughter, right? Adoption, there are people who won't talk about adoption like till a certain time, right? it was always part of my conversation. Okay. It was like such a natural part of my conversation that there was never a moment when I had to sit down and say to anybody, or including my daughter, that we adopted you, right? so I think it's the same as a prenup. I think it should just be part of the conversation. even when you're dating, not your first date or your second, but at some point when you're dating, I always think about the fact that I would have to have a prenup if I got married. or a prenup is such a great idea. Or do you know so and so who's getting married? I wonder if they're having a prenup. How do you feel about a prenuptial agreement? I think it's a great idea. and if you haven't had that conversation and you're now at the other stage, right, where there's been no mention of a prenup. then I think you have to say, I always assumed I would have a prenuptial agreement. I've been thinking about this a lot. I've been looking at social media and it seems everybody's having a prenup. Or did you hear about so and so, in the movies having a prenup, or any of those are good conversation openers, right? to have a conversation about a prenuptial agreement. Justin Milrad: Sure. listen, it's a really hard conversation. It was a lot easier in my case for the second marriage. And, my now wife, she was great and she agreed as well. However, I will say the process is very stressful because there's a lot of transparency, there's a lot of discussions, and you want to be loving and amicable and fair, but sometimes there may be some areas that you disagree. So I think it's really important for everyone to know that the purpose of the prenup or the post-nup is to protect everybody. that it's something that can be revisited, over time. Which kind of leads to my next question, which is, in your opinion, and I know different ages and stages matter, but how often should someone revisit their prenup or postnup? Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: Well, I think the question of revisiting is different than first of all looking at it, right? So I think people should be looking at their prenup at least once a year to see how they are doing. Are they actually paying attention to what the prenuptial agreement has actually provided? Because we see so many situations where people do sign prenuptial agreements, but they don't abide by the prenuptial agreements and then they end up in that big kind of mess, right? I would say they need to to look at the prenuptial agreement at least once a year, take a look at it. but I would also say that as perhaps there are children born to the marriage, or perhaps you're buying real estate property or opening a business, these are times, these big life changes may be time to review the prenup and sit down and say, Well, did we take care of all of this? Have we covered it in some way? Is it okay with both of us? That might be the time to revisit. Justin Milrad: Great. In what cases might a prenup or postnup agreement be considered invalid? So I you hear all the time there was a prenup, there's a postnup. One attorney says we're going to try and break it. you want to make sure that if you're spending all this time and energy and resources getting a prenup or postnup, that it's gonna hold its weight in court. Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: I will say a few things. First of all, in New York, in New York, it has to be duly acknowledged in the same form is required to file a deed in New York. If that does not happen in New York, it's not going to be valid. So that's the first thing. the second thing I would say is that it's always good to have what's called a severability clause, which is a clause that basically says if one part of the prenup is not valid, then the rest of it doesn't fall apart. So there was a case in New York approximately a year ago where the maintenance provisions weren't properly done in the person's prenuptial agreement. And the judge in that particular case set aside just that portion because he looked to see whether there was a severability clause. Okay. And and in that particular situation, it was because they had not cited their income in the statutory guidelines, which we're very careful to do. We always put in everybody's income and show the calculations for for spousal support. These are reasons that sometimes prenups couldn't get set aside. The court did not feel that the person had a complete waiver because the incomes weren't set in in set forth in the prenup. Lack of disclosure, no attorneys, all of those things like combined and or somebody just is like literally become a would become a public charge. meaning that the government would have to take care of them if their spouse because the if their spouse wasn't, because it was so onerous that they have basically nothing. these are reasons that prenuptial agreements are set aside. And of course, there are ways to make sure that these things don't happen, right? and we talked about them, negotiating ahead of time, make sure everybody has counsel. make sure that if you're using, I think I told you I'm I work I'm an investor and an advisor for Hello Prenup. And they give you review attorneys that review the prenuptial agreement. So they have a whole list of prenuptial agreement review attorneys. So you should have an attorney review your prenup to make sure that it is valid. Justin Milrad: Super helpful. Great, great advice. I want to shift to case-based thinking without using real names, obviously. I want to walk our listeners through some real world scenarios. So scenario one, a couple in their late 40s, second marriage, both have kids from prior relationships. What are the critical issues and how does a prenup address them? Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: Okay, so one critical issue is anybody going to be having to pay child support, spousal support, equitable distribution from the previous marriage? And if so, where is that money going to be? Second issue would be premarital assets, in other words, assets that you've already accumulated. Are those going to be kept separate and apart? And is the appreciation going to be separate? Is there a home that may be still co-owned by one or both of the parties with their prior spouse, how are those all those kinds of issues going to be dealt with? is there a business that existed prior to the marriage and if that business appreciates during the marriage, is the appreciation going to be marital? Will the business can be kept separate and apart entirely? Any other debts, liens, etc, how are those all going to be dealt? So I would say that and then of course estate rights because you need to check to make sure what that person may have agreed to during their last marriage, right? They may have agreed in their divorce to leave a certain amount of money to their children or to their ex spouse. and if so, how is that going to affect your estates and rights estate rights in this particular document? Justin Milrad: Wow, that's a lot to think about, but so relevant to my listeners because a lot of people who are going through divorce will eventually remarry. And they need to think about this before they walk down the aisle for a second or third time. When you blend families, the dynamics are really complex. And adding this financial uncertainty on top of that is really a formula for conflict if it's not addressed early. All right, scenario two. One partner is scaling a business. Maybe they just got funding. Maybe the company is suddenly worth real money. What does a postnup look like here? Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: Well, so it depends, right? it depends what all the other assets are. Perhaps the postnup looks like you're going to keep the business, the person who has the business, and the other person is going to get X percentage paid out over X amount of years. that's one scenario. Another is that person is going to get shares in the company and if there's a liquidation event, they would get something. Okay, as a result of having that liquidation event in terms of the business, or there's just a complete waiver of the business. All of these are options. Justin Milrad: Very, very helpful. And I've seen it play out where the business becomes a weapon and one side inflates the value, the other minimizes it. And meanwhile, the company itself is dying because no one's paying attention to it. Scenario three, one spouse is leaving the workforce to be a full-time parent. this is the one I feel most strongly about from a coaching and financial planning perspective. Can you talk to us about the vulnerability here? Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: Sure. we see this so often. there is, a situation that occurs in a lot of marriages where one spouse either steps back from the workforce or leaves entirely, and then they get to the divorce. And the question becomes, well, did we all agree on that? And now it is, maybe five, ten, fifteen, twenty years later. And that spouse is still out of the workforce. And one person is saying, we fully agreed on this. It said I was going to step back from the workforce. And you agreed and you loved the idea. And in fact, you told me that I wouldn't make enough to pay for childcare. Andor that you really wanted me home with the children, and we both couldn't be traveling and building our careers. And now one spouse has that great big career and the other spouse does not and is unlikely to. ever have it because twenty years have passed and so the comparison just doesn't ever work, right? That trajectory of building your career isn't really an opportunity anymore because it's the parties could be in their fifties, okay? And so spousal support doesn't cover the lifestyle because the lifestyle has grown very big and one spouse is as I said making a great amount of money and is compensated every year with equity, et cetera, and the other spouse not so much, right? Or not at all. And so the question becomes can you have a clause in your prenuptial agreement whereby you both agree in writing, okay, even each year, okay, that you're going to actually stay at home, raise the children, etc. And then that spouse is provided for in terms of spousal support for every year of the marriage that you know that spouse is home taking care of the children or every year of the marriage that they are married or or X lump sum is going to be given to that spouse. This is a negotiation and it's a really important negotiation. Justin Milrad: Lisa, that is incredible, incredible advice. The financial vulnerability that comes from leaving the workforce multiplies. And it's not just the money you're earning now, it's the compounding effect over years, like you said. It's a gap in your resume. It's the retirement contributions you couldn't make. The professional identity you set aside, the costs are real and they're massive. And if you don't address them proactively, you're betting everything on the relationship lasting forever. And I see this time and time again, and it breaks my heart for so many people who've just missed out on years of, potential income, and they have no easy way to get that money back, or even a fair settlement. So let's talk strategy now. and this is where I want to get really practical. What do the smartest and most proactive people do differently when it comes to prenups and postnups? Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: They discuss it together. They actually come up with a term sheet that really works for both of them. Then they go both, then they each see an attorney. They work on the finer details of that term sheet. They come back together again. They make sure that they're both on the same page with the term sheet. They submit it to their attorneys. An attorney drafts up the term sheet and puff, you've got your prenuptial or postnuptial agreement. That's the smartest people in the room. Justin Milrad: And being one of the dumbest people in the room, having gone through a seven-figure, divorce, I will say that I really regret that we didn't have a prenup and that we or we didn't have a post-nup, because by not going through that exercise, it cost us significantly more and not just financially, emotionally in time, in stress. And it's not just on us individually. It's on our entire ecosystem. It's on our kids. It's on our friends and family. You know. so please be smart. Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: Yeah, Justin, I'm gonna say something. I see more and more young people coming to me for prenuptial agreements because of just that. Because their their mother or their father has have gone through or both obviously gone through these divorces and and they remember them very well. Justin Milrad: Yeah. And, if you just think about the logic behind it, we have health insurance, we have car insurance, we have property insurance, we have life insurance. We don't think twice about that. But this is truly your biggest investment. And, it's your marital net worth. And we need to make sure that we have the insurance to do that as well. All right. Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: Hundred percent. Justin Milrad: This is my favorite part of the show. rapid fire questions. Are you ready? Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: Okay. Justin Milrad: Biggest prenup myth. Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: That they're not romantic. Justin Milrad: Biggest mistake high earners make. Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: Not having a prenup. Justin Milrad: One question every couple should ask each other before signing a prenup. Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: Do you feel like it's fair? Are you happy? Justin Milrad: Prenup or postnup, which one is more misunderstood? Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: Post-up. Justin Milrad: Can you write your own prenup? Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: You can, but I don't advise that you do it. Justin Milrad: If you could change one thing about how society views prenups, what would it be? Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: I think that they should be legalized actually, throughout the country. I think that they should be abs they should be ap an absolute necess necessity. Justin Milrad: I want to go back to your first answer about prenupts not being romantic. They probably aren't very romantic, but I am thinking you could all it's an important topic. You can open up a bottle of wine and you can set some ground rules and have a very productive conversation. So I guess they can be romantic. Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: So I think that they can be romantic and I think that they could make someone feel safe and loved and that actually is romantic. So I think that they can be romantic actually. Justin Milrad: Lisa, as we wrap things up, I want to give you the floor for any final thoughts. What do you want our listeners to walk away with today? Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: Think that they should just have an understanding that, and we've talked about this, Justin, but they have a prenuptial agreement every time they get married. Every time they get married, there's a prenup. It's just they're not seeing it, they didn't sign it. It's out there, it's called the law. And there's so many areas of gray in the law because you've got case law and you've got statutes, and then you've got basically the discretion of a judge in so many areas. Why not have clarity for you and the person that you're in love with so that you don't have to go through all of that? Justin Milrad: I think that's great advice. Lisa, how can people find you? Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: They can go to my blog which is LisaZiderman dot com or they can email me at lz at mzw-law.com Justin Milrad: Thank you. Lisa, this was Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: Thank you. Justin Milrad: really phenomenal. Thank you for bringing your expertise and your honesty to the show. You're exactly the type of professional I love putting in front of the audience because you don't sugarcoat it. And you give people real actionable insight that they can use right now. And I know you're a rock star in this field. And not only do you know the law, but you also have a lot of knowledge about mental health. And I think that's really, really important and critical because a divorce is not just illegal. event it's also an emotional event. Lisa Zeiderman, Esq.: interact it is. Justin Milrad: All right, everyone. If this episode hit you the way I hope it did, here's what I need you to do. Share it. send it to someone who's engaged, remarried, or just starting to think about their financial future. This is a kind of conversation that can change the trajectory of someone's life, and they may never have it unless you put it in front of them. Subscribe to the Conscious Divorce podcast wherever you listen. Leave a review. It helps more people find us. And if you're someone who's navigating divorce right now or rebuilding after one or just trying to figure out how to think more strategically about your future, visit me at www.reclaimandreboot.me. That's where you'll find my books, my coaching, and the resources that go deeper than any single episode ever could. And here's what I want to leave you with today. You're not powerless. Not in your marriage, not in your divorce, not in whatever comes next. The people who win at life are not the ones who avoid hard conversations. They're the ones who walk into them with clarity, with strategy, and with the confidence that comes from knowing that they've done the work. Reclaim your story, reboot your life, and become the version of you that's waiting on the other side of this hard stuff. I'm Justin Millrad. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you next time.