Latest / Becoming Anchored / Becoming Anchored S2E8: The Intersection of Eating Disorder Recovery and Trauma with Laurie Cooper

Transcript

Becoming Anchored S2E8: The Intersection of Eating Disorder Recovery and Trauma with Laurie Cooper · Becoming Anchored

0:04
Hi, everyone.
0:06
Welcome to the Becoming Anchored podcast.
0:09
My name is Laura Dineen.
0:10
I am your host today and we are joined by the lovely Dr.
0:15
Laurie Cooper.
0:17
Um, Dr.
0:18
Cooper, Laurie is a colleague and former mentor, teacher,
0:24
supervisor, friend, all the things.
0:26
And so, well, she's a current friend, but a former supervisor.
0:30
And I'm just super grateful for her today.
0:33
It's really such a gift to have her on the show.
0:36
And I'm super excited to dive into this content.
0:39
So today we are going to be talking a little bit more about the intersection
0:42
of eating disorders and trauma.
0:45
But before we get into All of the amazing content that we have for you all.
0:50
Like I said, my name is Laura and if you're new to this podcast, welcome.
0:54
We are so glad that you found us and we're just super thankful to
0:58
have you on this ride with us.
1:00
Lauren Jackson, my co host is not with us today, but she is with us in spirit.
1:04
So, um, yeah, let's just go ahead and get started.
1:06
So the purpose of this podcast is really twofold.
1:10
When Lauren and I were dreaming up.
1:13
what we wanted this podcast to be.
1:15
We really wanted it to feel conversational and relational in nature.
1:18
And so first and foremost, we are human with you all, and we will be sharing
1:23
about our lived experiences, um, both, you know, as friends, moms, wives,
1:30
um, just doing life with you all.
1:32
And so that's the first purpose of the podcast.
1:35
And then the second purpose is really just to share some of our therapeutic
1:39
wisdom that we have gathered.
1:40
Gleaned over the years and I know Laurie feels this way as well, but
1:44
sitting with clients is really just such a gift and we both love this work.
1:51
And so the cool part about this job and that and this podcast is really just the
1:57
ability to share some of our experiences both as humans and as clinicians.
2:02
So thanks for being here.
2:03
If you're with Just a quick disclaimer, this is not therapy, and so if you are
2:09
local to Tennessee, please reach out to either Laurie or us over at Anchored
2:15
Counseling, and Laurie's website will be in the show notes, um, if you are wanting
2:19
to learn more about her and her practice.
2:21
So yeah, if you are local to us, we would love to hear from you, and if
2:24
not, please reach out for support.
2:26
Support to someone local in your area.
2:45
So let's go ahead and dive in.
2:47
Welcome Laurie.
2:48
Thank you so much, Laura.
2:50
It is a gift to be invited and thank you so much.
2:52
I'm so excited to be here.
2:54
Ah, same, same.
2:56
Well, like I said, I just, I feel like Laurie has been so fundamental, and
3:00
I was actually sharing this with her over breakfast a couple weeks ago, but
3:03
just so fundamental in terms of how I practice, how I supervise and train
3:08
my team to practice, and so I cannot say enough wonderful, amazing things
3:12
about Laurie, and She is just such a gift to the Nashville community, and
3:17
I know that you have had such a ripple effect over the years around all these
3:23
clinicians that have learned from you and grown under you and so will forever
3:27
be grateful for you and your wisdom.
3:30
Um, but yeah, Laurie and I were trying to decide on a topic and
3:33
this, you know, I know that we could both talk about a lot of different
3:36
things, but this felt pertinent, and I know that this is something that
3:39
Laurie is really passionate about.
3:41
So, um, Before we dive in, Laurie, are you open to sharing a little bit more about
3:45
yourself and maybe a little bit more with our listeners about the work that you do?
3:50
Sure.
3:50
Yeah.
3:51
So, um, I'm a psychologist, uh, in private practice and have spent many,
3:57
many years working with eating disorders.
3:59
Um, sort of got into the work, um, sort of accidentally.
4:05
But.
4:05
really keeps drawing me back, um, over and over and over again.
4:09
And so, um, I'm a certified eating disorder specialist and consultant
4:13
and, um, really love splitting my time between, um, direct clinical care and, um,
4:20
supervision and, and that sort of thing.
4:22
I've led teams before and worked in administration.
4:25
Um, I'm just really, um, I love it.
4:28
The, the human spirit is never more present than when I'm working
4:32
with somebody who has an eating disorder and is fighting back for
4:35
their freedom and, um, recovery.
4:38
And so, um, you know, it's something that really energizes me.
4:41
I love it.
4:42
I love doing supervision.
4:43
I love, um, you know, Really being able to share in that, um, that growth and
4:50
awareness that new, newer clinicians or even, um, even seasoned clinicians, you
4:55
know, I, I, I still do some supervision with other clinicians who are, who are
5:01
very, very well qualified, but just sharing that stuff It can be a challenging
5:05
space, um, clinically to work with, um, folks who are really, really in the midst
5:10
of their struggles or even the beginning of their struggles or wherever they are.
5:15
So, um, yeah, so that's a bit about me and, um, I think.
5:19
If you ever want to get in touch with me, please don't hesitate to do that more than
5:22
happy to entertain a phone call and do a quick consult or something like that.
5:27
Thank you.
5:27
Thank you.
5:28
Well, let's just go ahead and dive right in.
5:30
I mean, I know that this is a big topic, right?
5:32
Like, we could spend many episodes talking about.
5:35
You know, not just trauma, but just trauma or just eating disorders, right?
5:40
And, and, and really that's important to take note of, right?
5:44
We're really just going to be scratching the surface, if you will,
5:47
um, on this topic today because it is so big and that is not lost
5:52
on either myself or Awari today.
5:54
So just really want to throw that out there, right?
5:56
That it is a big topic and we acknowledge that.
5:59
And I think that it is really important to talk through it.
6:03
How these two pieces really intersect.
6:07
So, let's just go ahead and dive right in.
6:09
Laurie, what are your thoughts on how eating disorders
6:13
intersect in the realm of trauma?
6:17
Right.
6:18
Well, I think to understand that, part of what we have to sort of understand is the
6:22
function of eating disorders in general.
6:25
So, eating disorders become a way that folks have learned to manage feelings
6:31
that feel, emotions that feel unmanageable or regulate their emotions, right?
6:35
And those emotions can come from a lot of different places.
6:38
In part, you know, I don't want to get too far afield, but in part,
6:42
like we are, we have biological temperaments that we are all born with.
6:46
And so, so how we kind of come into this world, either being somebody who's
6:51
a little bit more careful and doesn't want to make mistakes or somebody who's
6:54
a little bit more impulsive and ready for an adventure, all of those things.
6:58
Personality traits or temperament start to interact with the rest
7:01
of our world and we have emotions then that develop about ourselves.
7:08
Um, how we see ourselves, how we see other people, how we see
7:11
ourselves in relation to others.
7:13
And on the, on the end of the spectrum of the life experiences that happen,
7:19
there is also trauma and the emotions that we experience, um, related to that
7:25
trauma, the emotions that we have then that start to impact how we see ourselves,
7:31
how we see other people, obviously, and ourselves in relation to others.
7:34
So all of that to say, we have to understand that, that, that
7:38
the, um, that the eating disorder for somebody who has trauma.
7:44
really become probably for a lot of people kind of the glue that holds
7:48
those or it feels like the glue that holds those emotions together.
7:51
Right.
7:52
And so when we are treating somebody who has an eating disorder and
7:56
trauma, we S we really have to recognize how intertwined those are.
8:01
And if you, You can't really just go straight for the trauma, you know, and
8:06
work on the trauma without a sort of a recognition that, that this eating
8:10
disorder has been fundamental in helping them kind of keep it all together, or
8:14
feels that way, you know, and likewise, if you're treating somebody with, with an
8:18
eating disorder, and you don't recognize the impact of trauma, you have, you know,
8:22
You fail to recognize how that trauma not only impacts like past memories and that
8:28
sort of thing, but every interaction that they have every day moving forward, right?
8:31
Because there's been an impact on how they see the world and
8:34
themselves in relation to the world.
8:36
So, um, so I think it's, the intersection is really about, you know, understanding
8:42
that function of the eating disorder.
8:45
you know, in, in managing those emotions and really having a deep appreciation
8:49
for that is essential because otherwise you're just going to do superficial
8:53
stuff, which I will say because I've been in the field for many years.
8:58
We did a lot of the superficial stuff in treating eating disorders for many years
9:02
until we realized that, that the reading reason that eating disorders persisted
9:07
and there was such a high relapse rate.
9:09
is because we weren't getting at more of those underlying issues.
9:12
And so, I feel very strongly that you really have to get at those underlying
9:17
issues if you're going to really help support somebody in sustained recovery.
9:24
Uh, gosh.
9:24
Yes.
9:25
Yes.
9:26
And I have like five different questions based on what you just shared.
9:31
I feel like with every guest, to the listeners on this show, that's what I say.
9:34
We just have, have had such amazing guests.
9:36
And I'm like, okay, I want to ask you 20 different questions right now.
9:39
Um, but yeah, I mean, I think, I think you're just so right on here, right?
9:44
Like, number one, we can't control or we don't have a say in who our family
9:51
of origin is or our genetic makeup.
9:54
So that is a piece that is really important to understand.
9:58
And I don't know if I've mentioned this on the show yet, but you know this about
10:02
me, I am a sensitive individual and I used to have quite a bit of shame about that
10:08
and tried to mask that in various ways.
10:11
Um, but the more I started understanding like, okay, I do feel emotion on a deeper
10:17
level, maybe than the average person.
10:20
And that doesn't have to be this terrible, big, bad thing, but I can learn
10:24
to process my emotions appropriately.
10:26
So number one, that biological temperament that Laurie's talking
10:29
about is really important just to be aware of, because I would say that
10:33
most folks with an eating disorder.
10:35
And I hesitate to generalize, but this has at least been my experience.
10:39
And I'm curious to hear about your experience, but I would say most folks
10:42
do have a little bit more of that sensitive temperament that in combination
10:46
with traits like perfectionism or harm avoidance, or perhaps some impulse control
10:51
concerns can be really what we call the perfect storm in the therapeutic space.
10:56
Um, so that is really important to understand.
10:58
And then number two, the environment that you grow up in.
11:01
So if you go through a trauma and you are in a home in which emotions are not talked
11:08
about or are not accepted, or perhaps your caregivers are not modeling ways to work
11:16
through an emotion appropriately, that can really be damaging in the sense of
11:23
the development of the eating disorder.
11:26
post trauma.
11:27
Um, and, and that can make a lot of sense in terms of why individuals go
11:34
on to develop an eating disorder if we're seeing the function through this
11:37
lens of emotional avoidance and no family of origin is perfect, right?
11:42
But there are some Families that are more accepting, more validating of emotion
11:47
versus that dismissing, minimizing, um, trying to fix the emotion, what have you.
11:53
Yeah, you know, it's, you, you bring up such a good point that partly,
12:00
partly as clinicians, we have to recognize that with our clients.
12:05
They have to, they come into this world with these biological
12:09
temperaments and, and biological means that is deep in their genes, right?
12:13
We're not going to therapy that out of them and we don't want to, right?
12:17
We want to be able to help them move toward recovery while still maintaining
12:23
all of those wonderful, unique qualities that made them, them, you
12:26
know, that are, that are never going It's not gonna change anyway, right?
12:30
So if, if I have a client who's super, you know, who's a
12:34
highly sensitive person, right?
12:36
We want to be able to guide that person toward more of an effective way to manage
12:43
the emotions that do come up, knowing that they are going to be a little bit
12:47
more sensitive and those are going to be more triggered and that's never going
12:49
to change, you know, but we can still help them to, to learn how to regulate.
12:53
So we don't want to try to change that biology.
12:57
The, the other, which can be a challenge, right, because you can't really take a
13:02
cookie cutter, um, approach to treating anybody who has an eating disorder because
13:06
you have to take into consideration that.
13:08
The other part of that is that we all have, I had, I had a dear friend once
13:13
and she, her, her term was always the story I tell myself, right?
13:17
Um, and, and so, The, the story that we have, you know, or the things
13:23
that happen to us in our world, sometimes we can't change those things.
13:27
Sure.
13:28
But we also sort of have to recognize that.
13:31
The story that we tell ourselves is about the story that comes in, right?
13:35
The, the things that happen to us, but then also what we're telling ourselves
13:39
about, what that means about who we are, what that means about what's okay, right?
13:44
And what that means, especially with somebody with trauma, right?
13:48
What do I have to do?
13:49
What, you know, what was, you know, My role in it a lot of
13:52
times, you know, um, how do I have to protect myself in the future?
13:57
What does this mean about me?
13:59
And so we really have to sort of recognize that that story they tell
14:04
themselves about the trauma and how they can express the trauma is pretty
14:08
deep and pretty entrenched, right?
14:10
Especially if there's complex trauma, you know, if it's an
14:13
individual traumatic event.
14:15
You know, sometimes that's a, uh, not to discount that in any way, but, but
14:20
sometimes that is a later in life or once in life sort of thing that, that
14:24
might have less of a, a periphery of all the other messages that came, you
14:29
know, that came in at that time, um, but certainly somebody with complex
14:32
trauma where we want to recognize that.
14:35
There are certain rules about what's allowable and what's not and, you
14:39
know, how they see themselves and, and really, realistically, what we're going
14:42
to change is part of their biology.
14:45
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
14:46
And when Laurie's talking about all these kind of different ways that we
14:51
can experience trauma, so really, if you haven't heard that word, which I do feel
14:55
like it is becoming more mainstream, stream and more people are talking about
14:59
what trauma is and what it isn't now, which is a wonderful piece, but it's
15:03
really anything that pushes us outside of our, our nervous systems ability to cope.
15:08
And so if you think about the window of tolerance, if you
15:11
haven't heard of that concept, I highly recommend you look it up.
15:13
Dan Siegel coined that term, I believe it was in the, in the nineties.
15:17
Um, but anyway, it's, it's really this, Fight, flight is above the window of
15:21
tolerance if you think about two parallel lines and then fawn or freeze are below
15:26
the window of tolerance and it's really anything that pushes us outside of our
15:29
ability to cope, whether that is more commonly kind of accepted or known or
15:34
things like a car wreck or an assault, um, and then we can also have developmental
15:39
trauma where perhaps we didn't grow up in an emotionally safe home.
15:42
So there's all sorts of different kind of trauma that Laurie is referencing today.
15:47
Right.
15:47
Yeah.
15:47
Bye.
15:49
And, you know, you, you, you bring up window of tolerance, and I think
15:52
that's, um, that sort of leads to a discussion of the physiology of
15:57
trauma, which is so, so important in being able to treat trauma, but also
16:04
somebody who is affected by an eating disorder who also has trauma, right?
16:08
Because, um, we know that, and people who have an eating disorder, um, Um,
16:15
their, their bodies are so deeply impacted, um, in ways that we don't
16:21
even necessarily think about, right?
16:22
Because we know that somebody who has an eating disorder, like top level,
16:26
just right out of the gate, they can tell you, you know, when I engage,
16:29
regardless of behavioral presentation, when I engage in this behavior, I feel
16:33
whatever, I feel relief, you know, or I feel high or I feel numb or, you know,
16:38
they can name some of those things.
16:40
What we, what we is at a deeper level.
16:44
that we don't necessarily think about with an eating disorder is how their
16:48
body is feeling in response to feeling more competent, feeling more in control,
16:53
feeling like, okay, you know, I can manage the storm of emotions, right?
16:59
Um, and that's, that's when you have an eating disorder without the trauma.
17:02
When you bring the trauma into that and the, the, you know, the, our physiology
17:07
has really, has really stored a lot of the trauma memories as well as the
17:14
ongoing need for protection you know which happens with almost everybody
17:18
who has experienced any trauma.
17:20
You know they are in this um, and you know if you look at the diagnosis
17:24
for like PTSD you know it's the hyper vigilance and hyper arousal.
17:28
You know.
17:28
Sure.
17:29
There are any number of differences experiencing.
17:31
But we also see the level of dissociation and shut down with these folks too.
17:34
So and that's our body's way of telling us We are outside that
17:38
window of tolerance, right?
17:39
We are, our, our nervous system is It's constantly on overdrive to
17:46
try to protect us, you know, from future tragedy and trauma, right?
17:51
And so, understanding, like, how to start regulating our autonomic
17:58
nervous system is really key.
18:01
And, and when you have an eating disorder, Unfortunately, the behaviors
18:05
of the eating disorder are mucking up that system even more, you know, that
18:08
autonomic nervous system even more.
18:11
And so having a recognition of how our nervous system and how our physiology
18:15
is being impacted by both of those brings a lot of awareness to our, for
18:19
our clients about how they can move forward and Um, in trauma resolution, but
18:27
also eating disorder recovery as well.
18:29
Absolutely, and I feel like all of this are, you know, I can think about several
18:34
conversations that I had when I was under your tutelage, right, just with you around
18:39
some of even, I think, the misconceptions that happen Both with clients and in
18:45
the therapeutic space and, you know, we obviously want to approach this topic
18:51
with grace and care because I certainly have made mistakes as a clinician and
18:55
I'm first to say that and, you know, I can course correct and apologize
18:59
and, um, Learn from those mistakes.
19:02
But, you know, I want to talk about where we begin, because the reason this
19:08
this question felt important to me is because we see a lot of folks in the
19:13
practice that perhaps maybe We get quite a few inquiries that perhaps maybe want
19:19
to work on the trauma piece, but not necessarily work on their eating disorder.
19:25
And so if this is you, I want you to hear from me today.
19:29
There is no shame in that.
19:30
And I can understand that.
19:33
And I can understand why you would want to work on the trauma piece and not
19:39
necessarily the eating disorder piece.
19:41
Um, yeah.
19:42
But I would love for you, Laurie, if you feel open to speaking to that a
19:46
little bit more, and I'm sure that you've had those experiences as well,
19:50
but kind of this concept or this question of like where we begin when
19:54
we're seeing both of those together.
19:57
Right.
19:58
Yeah, I, like you, I see a lot of folks who come in and want to do
20:03
that, that deep trauma work, but don't want to do their eating disorder.
20:07
And like you, of course, of course they don't want to treat the eating disorder.
20:12
I mean, the eating disorder has a very powerful and important
20:16
function in their lives, right?
20:18
Um, for a lot of folks, having the eating disorder feels like, Feels like safety.
20:24
It feels like it feels like protection, right?
20:27
It feels like, um, certainty about, I'm going to be able to kind of
20:32
hold all this together, right?
20:34
Who wants to walk away from that?
20:36
It makes a lot of sense that a lot of people really.
20:40
don't want to deal with the eating disorder.
20:42
What I, what I try to really help people understand, first of all, is that
20:47
connection, how they are connected, right?
20:50
And, and how, you know, they're creating some space to maybe think about, maybe
20:55
I wouldn't need my eating disorder as much, you know, if I could work on both
21:00
of these things, if I could, if I could do trauma work without feeling like
21:05
I'm coming apart at the seams, right?
21:07
It's better.
21:07
Because the eating disorder is there to kind of pick up the pieces if they, if
21:10
they start falling apart at the seams.
21:12
So, the first thing I do is try to give them a lot of education about
21:17
sort of the function of their eating disorder, help them be able to appreciate
21:22
how their body's physiology is tied together with some of those things.
21:26
Um, and then we almost always start, and this is, this is true regardless
21:33
of whether you're working on, on a I very often tell people, you know,
21:40
chances are, you know, your present is often much less scary than your
21:47
future tripping or your past tripping or your trauma responses, right?
21:52
The present moment is often one of the safest places you can be.
21:57
It doesn't necessarily feel like it all the time because your body's constant
22:03
searching and scanning and being, you know, being in, in protection mode, right,
22:10
is, is activating you and telling you that the present is not necessarily safe.
22:14
Um, but if we can work on present focused awareness.
22:20
we can really start from a place of safety, right?,
22:23
and then kind of move out, and so I very often really am always going to
22:29
start with somebody who's impacted with, uh, who has an eating disorder,
22:33
who's impacted by trauma or trauma, who's, who's, you know, Really also
22:39
suffering from an eating disorder.
22:41
I really start with the present and then we can kind of move out and create, you
22:46
know, once we create some safety and that includes safety in your own body, right?
22:50
So we can, we can really work on skills to feel more safe in your own body.
22:55
Um, That's always, as long as you, you know, have unresolved trauma,
23:00
that's always going to be, you know, kind of a constant trigger
23:04
when you're around other people.
23:05
But in our therapy room, we can start with some safety.
23:08
And usually that's where, where I think the best place to start is.
23:12
Yeah, yeah, and I completely agree.
23:13
And when Lori's talking about present focused awareness, she's really
23:17
talking about kind of those physical sensations and How that might be
23:22
connected to an emotional state and perhaps what my thoughts are in the,
23:27
in those moments, whether they're kind of, um, influenced by my eating
23:32
disorder self or my healthy self.
23:34
And, and then of course, any resulting urges that we might have or behaviors
23:40
that we're engaging in, and that can just really build insight and self
23:44
awareness, which I think is just such a fundamental piece of really effective
23:49
therapy, whether we're treating.
23:51
You know, anxiety, OCD, eating disorders, trauma, um, that,
23:55
that psychoeducation piece.
23:57
Yeah, I love that.
23:58
Yeah.
23:58
And I think the piece that is important to share with clients around like, Hey,
24:04
we can absolutely do the trauma work.
24:07
And part of the trauma work is increasing safety.
24:09
Like you said, right?
24:10
It doesn't necessarily need to be just trauma reprocessing, which
24:15
is where we would go into a memory and really examine the memory and.
24:19
You know, try to, um, you know, grow through the memory and heal from the
24:24
memory, whatever that might be, but trauma work can also be building safety,
24:29
and if we are going straight into the trauma memory or memories themselves,
24:36
then without the skills to live life in the present moment, then that can be
24:42
quite difficult for clients, especially for clients that are using maladaptive
24:45
behaviors like eating disorders because, you know, they get a 50 minute session
24:49
with you or me every week and then they Live their lives outside of therapy and
24:54
so that's a really big ask and so one of the reasons that you know I learned
24:59
this from you Laurie, but is is we really want clients to be successful in their
25:03
treatment and so that's why we're working on this present focused awareness and
25:08
skill building and insight First before we're just processing a memory because
25:13
we want our clients to be successful in reducing their eating disorder behaviors
25:18
yeah, you know, I Mm hmm, I think The, the older I get, the more I sort of
25:25
appreciate the role of my, that the role that I have as a clinician in pacing,
25:32
you know, for our clients, because it is so understandable that when you are
25:38
so done with feeling, you know, like a victim or, you know, being, you know,
25:46
So, um, fighting these intrusive, you know, aspects of your trauma, you know,
25:53
that, that you want it to be done.
25:55
You want to be free from that.
25:57
Um, and you want to go, you want to dive headfirst.
26:00
You've decided you're ready to do it, to do the hard work,
26:03
and you want to dive headfirst.
26:04
And I, and I really feel like it's so important to, to be able to pace that
26:08
because The last thing I want to do is unpack a bunch of stuff, um, whether
26:15
that's, you know, eating disorder or trauma or both or, you know, unpack
26:19
that and then, and then send you out there, you know, really raw and, and,
26:25
um, feeling even more vulnerable, right.
26:29
To, um, the rest of the world where you've already felt vulnerable.
26:33
And so.
26:34
You know, I really try to talk with clients maybe about why we're pacing
26:38
things the way they are and um, really sort of get some agreement that we
26:45
want to make sure that you're ready whatever we unpack, that we're not
26:50
unpacking it and then just crossing our fingers that you're going to leave
26:53
and everything's going to be okay.
26:54
You know that we're unpacking it because you're ready because you've developed
26:58
some internal or external resources to be able to kind of carry that.
27:04
you know, through the next week.
27:06
Absolutely.
27:07
Absolutely.
27:07
Yeah.
27:08
Yeah.
27:09
And one thing that I'm sharing with clients as well is just this piece
27:12
around nutritional rehabilitation.
27:14
Right.
27:14
And of course we're not dietitians.
27:16
Right.
27:16
But I know that you and I both collaborate quite closely with dietitians
27:20
in the area and, um, see, that why piece is really important as well.
27:26
Like I will share with clients that, Hey, in my opinion, I think that your
27:30
trauma processing, so really digging into that memory itself will be more
27:34
successful when you are nourished and when your brain is receiving adequate
27:40
nutrition and a variety of nutrition and you're eating consistently.
27:45
The work that we will do with your trauma and your trauma story will
27:50
be, in my opinion, more impactful once some of those behaviors are
27:56
Decreased or once they go down.
27:58
Yeah.
27:59
Yeah You know, I think that's That's one of the things that's
28:04
hard for them to believe.
28:05
You know, I have a lot of people who, who are like, well, you know, I've in
28:08
fact, it just happened like yesterday.
28:09
Well, I've been okay this far, you know, I've made it this far, you know?
28:14
And, and so I understand why that's really, really hard to believe, um, that.
28:19
their nutrition might be impacting their ability to process their
28:22
trauma successfully and to manage the emotions that are coming up, but the
28:26
truth is we really do know that any time you're, you're tired or you're
28:30
hungry, you know, or you're sick or any of those things, that's, that's
28:35
depleting your internal resources, and if we're gonna do trauma work, we
28:39
really want to bring all the internal and external resources that we can
28:44
gather to this, to this effort, right?,
28:46
because, because it, it, Because then they're just more successful.
28:52
Yeah, bottom line.
28:53
Yeah.
28:54
Yeah, and one thing too that I've seen and you know, I, I understand this, but
28:59
I think some of the newer therapies that have come out maybe aren't as popular
29:04
or they're not seen as cool as other therapists, and I am EMDR trained.
29:08
I went through the certification.
29:09
I didn't actually get the certification.
29:11
But I did go through that process and I, I think EMDR is a wonderful
29:15
treatment and part of the step in, one of the steps in EMDR is appropriate
29:21
resourcing like you're talking about.
29:22
And so it's kind of that some of the tried and true, and I don't think
29:26
that any therapy is like perfect.
29:27
I know that you practice from an eclectic lens as well, but you know,
29:30
more of the CBT act, ERP, um, those have been around a little bit longer.
29:36
And so.
29:37
We as humans, I think, oftentimes crave novelty, and I think part of that is
29:42
wanting the new therapy that's been out there, and I can, I can understand that.
29:46
Um, EMDR is really cool, and it's a little woo woo when you actually think about it.
29:51
Um, but there is something really, I think, beautiful to be said for our
29:56
ability to, Um, separate from our thoughts or perhaps put less value on our thoughts
30:01
and name an emotion and the underlying need and that's such a, that's such an
30:06
important piece of the ED recovery work is being able to do that so that we can do
30:13
more of the, the reprocess, reprocessing, so to speak, that might be there in EMDR.
30:17
I don't know if you have any thoughts on that.
30:19
Well, I do.
30:20
I'm, you know, Because I, I do EMDR too and, but one of the things that I
30:26
really try to help clients understand is that there is, you know, there
30:32
is a, in being able to reprocess a memory, you, you need to be able to,
30:38
To, to have safe enough, safe enough experience in that moment to be able
30:43
to do proper resourcing, you know, so that, you know, you have that safe space.
30:49
So that's step one, you know, do you have you, have you really
30:53
created, you know, enough.
30:55
grounding skills and resourcing and that sort of thing to be able
30:58
to do this in the first place.
30:59
But the second place is you have to create some, you have to have some
31:02
psychological flexibility, right, to be able to reprocess the memory.
31:06
And if you don't have that psychological, um, flexibility, either because you're,
31:12
you're really, really locked in to other behaviors, you know, that are managing
31:17
your emotions, or two, You're not adequately nourished, right, or three,
31:22
you know, you're just too low in any of those other internal resources like we
31:25
talked about, that reprocessing is not going to be effective, you know, and what
31:31
I, one of the things, and you've heard me talk about this before, Laura, um,
31:35
with regard to, you know, when I make a recommendation for higher level of care
31:39
or something like that, part of my job also as a clinician is to not create a
31:45
situation where you feel more hopeless.
31:48
Right.
31:49
And sometimes when we do, uh, insufficient treatment or inappropriate treatment
31:55
or under treatment, when we do those things, what we're basically allowing our
32:00
clients to do is say, yeah, I'm getting treatment for, you know, You know, my
32:04
trauma, my eating disorder, whatever, but it's not, it's not the treatment
32:08
that's going to help them be well, right?
32:10
And so they're steadily telling themselves, I'm doing treatment,
32:13
but they're not getting better.
32:15
And so that creates a sense of hopelessness, and I, and I really want
32:20
to I very much see so much hope, you know, in eating disorder recovery and
32:27
trauma resolution, you know, and I, I want, I don't want to create a situation
32:34
where I have, uh, gone along with under treatment, inappropriate treatment,
32:40
you know, insufficient treatment.
32:43
So that it just creates more hopelessness for our clients and, you know, and I'm,
32:47
I'm really going to sort of let them know that I stand firm with that and hopefully
32:52
we've built enough of a relationship for them to understand when I'm, when
32:55
I'm really feeling sort of passionately about that, it's really because I
32:59
want to engender hope with them, not.
33:01
Not hopelessness.
33:02
Absolutely.
33:03
And we talk a lot about hope on this podcast.
33:05
And so I love that we're kind of wrapping with this concept and I love
33:09
that you are holding on to that, um, for clients and for people that you're
33:15
training as well, your supervisees.
33:17
It's, it's so important because I know that this work can sometimes be heavy
33:21
and what, what our clients go through.
33:24
Um, they are incredible survivors, there's incredible resiliency there, and I agree
33:29
with you if we've really been in it for, you know, days, months, years, it can be
33:34
quite discouraging and so it makes sense that our clients come to us and have
33:38
lost their sense of hope and so our job I think as skilled clinicians hopefully
33:43
is to support them in finding that again and cultivating that within themselves.
33:48
Yeah, I love that.
33:49
And I agree with you.
33:50
There is always hope no matter.
33:53
How long you have struggled and maybe this is the first time that
33:56
you were reaching out for help.
33:58
Um, no matter how old you are, no matter what your experiences
34:01
are, there is always hope too.
34:04
Really change.
34:05
And I think that's what we want to perhaps close with today.
34:09
Um, we will certainly have you back on the show.
34:11
I know that we have a couple other topics in mind to maybe talk about next time.
34:17
So I would love to have you back on the show.
34:18
Thank you so much for everything that you shared today.
34:21
This has been so fun for me and a great way to start my day.
34:24
So thanks, Laurie.
34:26
Thank you.
34:27
Yeah, so y'all know this, but we typically close with some homework for you all, um,
34:34
in our practice we give quite a bit of homework, I know Laurie does as well, but
34:37
we really want clients to be practicing some of the things that we are talking
34:41
about in the therapeutic space and so that's one of the reasons that we give
34:45
homework on the Becoming Anchored podcast, um, and we also close with an affirmation.
34:50
And so Laurie, would you like to give either of those?
34:57
Um, sure, I will, I'll assign the homework, I guess, um, uh, your
35:02
homework is to, um, spend, really push yourself to spend some time each day.
35:10
And this is according to your window of tolerance.
35:12
Spend some time each day in mindfulness, recognizing just what your thoughts are.
35:19
Now, remember that mindfulness is not relaxation, but mindfulness is about
35:23
just noticing what What's going on?
35:26
Noticing what's going on around you, what's going on inside you.
35:30
Um, Lots of, there are lots of different metaphors and analogies for
35:35
that, but basically you're noticing these things without judgment.
35:39
And you're creating, um, the opportunity for you to, even if your mind drifts off,
35:47
you know, to another place, whether you're future tripping, past tripping, even if
35:50
trauma starts to invade that space, right?
35:53
Trauma responses start to invade that space.
35:55
Just be, just be mindful of, in a very objective way of what's happening.
36:01
Notice it, let it go and allow whatever's coming back in.
36:05
If you're, if you get distracted.
36:07
Just notice that you're distracted and come back to mindfulness.
36:10
And in that way, you're starting to practice the ability to, to
36:13
notice safety in the present moment.
36:16
And to bring yourself back to safety in the present moment.
36:19
I love it so much.
36:21
I'm going to actually take that with me today and try
36:23
to do a mindfulness exercise.
36:25
Yeah.
36:25
And then just your, an affirmation.
36:27
So I think kindness throughout this process feels important today, but
36:33
you know, maybe something that you, Take with you is just this idea that
36:37
I'm capable of extending kindness to myself through my eating disorder
36:42
recovery and trauma recovery.
36:45
Thanks for being here, Lori.
36:46
Um, in the show notes, you guys can find information about how to find her and
36:51
Lori, is there anything else that you want to share about your practice or ways
36:55
that our listeners can find you today?
36:58
I think my website will be on the show notes too.
37:01
Um, I'm just, um, happy to, to talk to anybody who might be struggling, um, and
37:07
other clinicians who might just want to kind of bend in the air for a minute.
37:11
Yes.
37:11
Well, thank you so much for your time.
37:13
I know your time is so valuable and we're just so grateful.
37:16
Okay.
37:16
See you next time.
37:17
Bye guys.