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How Does Trust Emerge? · Life In Flow Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Life in Flow podcast.
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The three of us,
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Yulia,
0:05
Polina,
0:06
and Irina,
0:07
are exploring what Life in Flow and Flow in Life is.
0:12
Join us as we experiment,
0:15
test our diverse hypotheses,
0:17
and have fun in the process.
0:20
SPEAKER_00: Will we find an answer?
0:23
SPEAKER_00: This isn't just an intellectual discussion.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: We're co-creating a shared field beyond words.
0:30
We're attuning to what emerges moment by moment so that the
0:35
conversation itself
0:36
SPEAKER_00: becomes a group flow experience.
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SPEAKER_01: And we invite you to become an active participant in this experiment.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: There will be pauses and moments of silence.
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SPEAKER_01: We leave them on purpose because this is where magic happens.
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SPEAKER_01: Go beyond the intellectual information.
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SPEAKER_01: Listen with your whole body.
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SPEAKER_02: And notice how your somatic experience shifts in the process.
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Share with us what reveals itself in the space where mind,
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body,
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and energy flow together.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Life & Flow.
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And today we're exploring a question that keeps surfacing in
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our own conversations,
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SPEAKER_00: in our work,
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SPEAKER_00: in our lives.
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SPEAKER_00: How does trust emerge?
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SPEAKER_00: Is it built?
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SPEAKER_00: Is it chosen?
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SPEAKER_00: Is it felt?
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SPEAKER_00: And what does trust have to do with flow?
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We're not here to give answers so much as to sense into what
1:46
this is for each of us.
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SPEAKER_00: So whether you're here with us live or you're listening later,
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SPEAKER_00: we invite you to explore with us,
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SPEAKER_00: not just in your mind,
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SPEAKER_00: but also in your whole system.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: in your breath, in your body, and your attention.
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SPEAKER_00: And now, let's play a little word association game.
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that is creative and it's nonlinear thinking and it gets us a
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little bit more into the topic.
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And what I invite you to do in this game is not only to engage
2:27
your analytical
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SPEAKER_00: brain,
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SPEAKER_00: but also engage your body,
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SPEAKER_00: your presence,
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SPEAKER_00: your breath,
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SPEAKER_00: the topic we're associating words with, I apologize, is trust.
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SPEAKER_00: So what words emerge as we connect to that topic of trust?
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SPEAKER_00: So for me, it's actually warmth.
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I think for me it's stability or maybe not stability but like
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you feeling grounded.
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SPEAKER_02: It was that like
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When I thought initially about trust,
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the words that came to me were surrender and precipice.
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SPEAKER_02: When Eula started talking about stability,
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SPEAKER_02: I had the word centering,
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SPEAKER_02: which you're like more in line with around it.
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But when Paulina said the word warmth,
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like actually my whole state shifted.
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SPEAKER_02: It was not the what,
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SPEAKER_02: but I just had this image of,
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SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
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SPEAKER_02: something gradient of colors that flowing into each other.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah, warmth resonated with me as well.
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SPEAKER_02: I guess it's something that feels pleasantly heavy in the lower chest,
5:00
SPEAKER_02: like in the area of sternum.
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SPEAKER_02: And it's soft, but springy and it creates some space.
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SPEAKER_02: That's how it feels.
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SPEAKER_02: And it also groans because it's on the heavier side.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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it makes me feel of and think back to like the sensory
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sensation I used to have
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SPEAKER_00: under this big,
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SPEAKER_00: thick,
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SPEAKER_00: beautiful blanket my grandma used to put over me.
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SPEAKER_00: And being under a blanket like that,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: you're almost in a cocoon and there's that sensation of warmth and trust.
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SPEAKER_00: And you're pausing the world for a brief amount of time.
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SPEAKER_00: But also precipice.
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SPEAKER_00: That was a powerful resonance for me as well.
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SPEAKER_00: Because there is this sensation of tension.
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SPEAKER_00: As I engage with the concept of trust.
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SPEAKER_00: Tension of trusting or not trusting.
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SPEAKER_00: Is it a bit of a fall into trust?
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SPEAKER_00: Or is it a bit of a...
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can I so that definitely elicited like a sensory experience in
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my body as I engaged
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with that yeah to me this point of my life I guess you're like
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with all the
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experiences I'm going through internally mostly it's really
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more associated with
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SPEAKER_02: like
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SPEAKER_02: another phrase came to me,
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SPEAKER_02: the leap of faith,
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SPEAKER_02: and I really visualized myself just,
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SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_02: like,
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SPEAKER_02: plunging into the,
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SPEAKER_02: like,
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SPEAKER_02: vastness of uncertainty and darkness,
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SPEAKER_02: but not necessarily,
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SPEAKER_02: like,
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SPEAKER_02: in the bad sense of just...
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SPEAKER_02: vastness of unknown...
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SPEAKER_02: And as you were talking about the wands and exploring these feelings,
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SPEAKER_02: all these sensations,
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SPEAKER_02: grounding sensations,
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SPEAKER_02: so like my darkness was sort of starting feeling out with some kind of
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SPEAKER_02: you know, let's call it energy, that sort of holds me in this vastness.
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SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm surrounded by light in the darkness.
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SPEAKER_02: And this light keeps me suspended.
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SPEAKER_02: Something like this.
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SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
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SPEAKER_02: It's a curious dream.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm just trying to visualize and kind of feel,
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I'm not sure how I would feel being in the vastness and only
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held by this,
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SPEAKER_02: I don't know how big or how powerful this light structure is.
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Yeah,
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it also made me feel like,
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wait,
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is there like a lot of pressure and tension on this?
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Like this,
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this,
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whatever it is,
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that's the light thing is like,
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is it a physical thing?
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SPEAKER_00: Is it like an energetic thing?
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SPEAKER_02: Like energetic can be physical?
9:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: Okay.
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SPEAKER_02: For me, one more thing, I guess that's coming up as you're
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describing the darkness and that expanse I think it's actual
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stillness and maybe
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slowing down because I know that if I don't slow down I'm not
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gonna keep my trust I
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SPEAKER_02: could really feel that actually I
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Actually,
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like,
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when you said slowing down,
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speeding up immediately came up to me.
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SPEAKER_02: And it's actually, like, the two processes that emerge together.
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SPEAKER_02: So,
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SPEAKER_02: like,
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SPEAKER_02: you need to slow down in order to...
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SPEAKER_02: It's like this,
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SPEAKER_02: like,
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SPEAKER_02: you slow down,
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SPEAKER_02: or I slow down,
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SPEAKER_02: and in these situations,
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SPEAKER_02: Slowing down into presence, what happens is some kind of quantum jump.
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SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: Quantum jump in trust or in something else?
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SPEAKER_02: All of this is happening in the space of trust.
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SPEAKER_02: Like a creative quantum jump.
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SPEAKER_02: Like something actually becomes something different.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: Like it's like the immediate shift of reality.
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SPEAKER_00: Oh,
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SPEAKER_00: so like in the slowing down,
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there's actually an immediate shift in reality and there's a
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sensation of actually
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SPEAKER_00: speeding up in ways.
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SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
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SPEAKER_00: Oh, I get that.
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SPEAKER_00: That's super cool.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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Okay,
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I want you to stay with these sensations as we transition into
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the next part.
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SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to set it up a little bit.
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So I want to name something that feels important about how
11:26
we're exploring trust,
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SPEAKER_00: not just what we're saying about it in this specific episode.
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SPEAKER_00: And the style of asking is a bit poetic, a bit open-ended.
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SPEAKER_00: It's not designed to push or pull for answers.
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SPEAKER_00: It's more...
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SPEAKER_00: designed to be a non-linear exploration of trust.
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And what we're going to be doing here is really forming kind of
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a trust field between us.
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SPEAKER_00: And we're going to trust that the questions will land how they need to,
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SPEAKER_00: and the answers will emerge as they need to.
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SPEAKER_00: And...
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SPEAKER_00: we're going to allow some pauses,
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SPEAKER_00: um,
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SPEAKER_00: and some emptiness and,
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SPEAKER_00: and some aliveness in the space between us.
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SPEAKER_00: So, um, the practicing of trust is actually in this exercise itself.
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SPEAKER_00: Um, so I'm gonna ask
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A few questions with some pauses in between to let you actually
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tune in to the
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SPEAKER_00: question to see what's emerging.
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SPEAKER_00: And then we will see what comes up for our discussion afterwards.
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SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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SPEAKER_00: So what's the moment just before trust appears?
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SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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SPEAKER_00: Where does your body say yes before your mind does?
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SPEAKER_00: Have you ever realized you were trusted after the fact?
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SPEAKER_00: Can you be in flow and not in trust?
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SPEAKER_00: or trust and not be in flow.
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SPEAKER_00: So let's open it up now.
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SPEAKER_00: What came up for you as you sat with these?
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SPEAKER_00: Is there one that you feel more pulled?
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to speak into actually something that came up by the end and
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it's if you have is
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SPEAKER_02: there flow there is no trust and vice versa
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SPEAKER_02: And it's not an answer,
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but this is something that came up recently in a conversation
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with some people,
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SPEAKER_02: some Germans actually.
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SPEAKER_02: And we discussed trust as kind of like your state.
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SPEAKER_02: If you live in a certain society,
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SPEAKER_02: your low trust and high trust and the structure and let's say the system,
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SPEAKER_02: the social system,
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SPEAKER_02: the political system,
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SPEAKER_02: they
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SPEAKER_02: or the family system.
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SPEAKER_02: You have a lot of say in whether you trust or not.
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SPEAKER_02: And so my default setting with trust for a very,
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SPEAKER_02: very long time,
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SPEAKER_02: I'd say,
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SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
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SPEAKER_02: before recently,
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SPEAKER_02: maybe a couple of years ago,
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SPEAKER_02: it was always distrust,
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SPEAKER_02: deep distrust.
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SPEAKER_02: And
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SPEAKER_02: I guess in my mind and how I was trying to think about it,
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SPEAKER_02: it was distrust of the outside world.
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SPEAKER_02: But I think the two cannot be separated.
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SPEAKER_02: I think trust is either there or not.
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SPEAKER_02: I mean,
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SPEAKER_02: of course,
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SPEAKER_02: you do make a decision about the person,
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SPEAKER_02: about the situation,
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SPEAKER_02: but basically it's the same source.
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SPEAKER_02: If you don't have a source of trust,
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then it's neither there for the environment where you live or
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for yourself.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's what I was... Can I ask you some clarifying questions?
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SPEAKER_00: I'm curious.
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SPEAKER_00: Are you describing the difference between...
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SPEAKER_00: The trust as a concept versus a state.
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SPEAKER_00: And then there's also a choice that I heard.
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SPEAKER_00: I wonder, is that a third aspect of trust for you?
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SPEAKER_00: What do you mean by choice?
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You said that you spent a lot of time mistrusting because of
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the environment,
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right?
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SPEAKER_00: So would that be a state?
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of mistrust would that be a trust you know like the state of of
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being yeah but also
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there was an a mental aspect right because you you also made a
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decision that you're
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not trusting for very good reasons yes am i getting that right
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and was there a
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SPEAKER_00: third aspect to what you were describing as well
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well i i'm not sure i can just break it out into uh different
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aspects and analyze
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it on the spot that was not really part of my um i guess
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whatever came up i'm i'm
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thinking of course the thinking and the feeling and the sensing
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they were all part
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SPEAKER_02: of this um state of trust i guess that um
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evolved um but what do we usually go with uh the default way to
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go is with um
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thinking and and the brain and for me it was the leading way to
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think about it i
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thought that i could actually this is a decision that i made to
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trust and not to
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trust and i can make another decision um which now i don't
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believe i think that um
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SPEAKER_02: you know it's not about
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making well maybe making a decision a conscious decision or
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creating an intention
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is part of feeling more trust but it's not by far not the main
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ingredient i
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SPEAKER_00: I really resonate with the way you described it.
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SPEAKER_00: I feel like I also spent the majority of my life in a state of distrust,
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SPEAKER_00: both as a choice,
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SPEAKER_00: like a protective choice,
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SPEAKER_00: but also as a state of being,
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SPEAKER_00: I guess because of the protection that I was seeking.
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SPEAKER_00: And...
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SPEAKER_00: There was still like a third element.
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And I'm saying that it's a third element because I don't really
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know how to describe it exactly.
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SPEAKER_00: But there was still a sense of like something else,
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like maybe in the observer self of it all or in the connection
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to something higher
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SPEAKER_00: that still doesn't.
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SPEAKER_00: like led me through that state and also trait.
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I feel like it was also a trait-based distrust because of the
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culture we come from
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SPEAKER_00: and the family dynamics and the time,
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SPEAKER_00: right?
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SPEAKER_00: But there was a sense of trust within all of that,
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SPEAKER_00: but it was outside of like kind of that structure.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the element that
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SPEAKER_00: I've integrated with more and that has kind of led me back to this,
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SPEAKER_00: uh,
20:19
SPEAKER_00: like actually playing with living into trust,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: kind of like figuring out a way to embody this,
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SPEAKER_00: not just concept,
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SPEAKER_00: but really this energetic presence of being,
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SPEAKER_00: I want to say.
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SPEAKER_00: That's what was emerging for me.
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SPEAKER_02: I like the energetic presence of being.
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The thing is that while you were asking the questions,
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a lot of things were coming to me.
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And as we're,
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you know,
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continue talking,
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like things are keeping coming and they keep coming.
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SPEAKER_02: And so...
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SPEAKER_02: like my mind starts, okay, what do I need to say?
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SPEAKER_02: Like, how do I formulate all of this into a coherent discourse?
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SPEAKER_02: How to phrase all of this?
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SPEAKER_02: Do we have time to express all of this?
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SPEAKER_02: So here for me, my experience right now,
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this what is emerging is this question of how do I trust the
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emerging experience
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itself that just what is the most important that it will take
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its form on its own
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SPEAKER_02: if I just let it
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SPEAKER_02: and stopped trying to control the process with my mind.
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SPEAKER_02: What drew my attention when Yuna was speaking was the source of trust.
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SPEAKER_02: What is it?
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SPEAKER_02: Where is it?
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SPEAKER_02: And
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I believe Eula said that it's actually the same for the trust
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in the outside world.
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SPEAKER_02: It's for the trust within.
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SPEAKER_02: But if it's the same, where is it still?
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SPEAKER_02: Is it out there?
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SPEAKER_02: Is it within me?
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SPEAKER_02: Is it in the divine providence?
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SPEAKER_02: Because actually,
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I don't know how to make a logical connection with the mind
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between these two
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SPEAKER_02: things,
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SPEAKER_02: but somehow I feel that there is a connection.
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Your first question was what appears the moment right before
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trust and what emerged from
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SPEAKER_02: for me, was exactly this.
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SPEAKER_02: Actually,
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I have the new word that describes all this vastness and
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darkness that I was
23:56
SPEAKER_02: talking before,
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SPEAKER_02: and it's emptiness.
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So,
24:01
for me,
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this moment before the trust emerges,
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there is this emptiness,
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this precipice,
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SPEAKER_02: Which creates tension.
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SPEAKER_02: Do I make this choice?
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SPEAKER_02: Do I make this step of leap of faith,
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SPEAKER_02: of trusting that in this emptiness,
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SPEAKER_02: in this vastness,
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SPEAKER_02: I will be held by the light.
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SPEAKER_02: Whatever will emerge.
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SPEAKER_02: I will be able to sustain it.
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SPEAKER_02: Because I think this is what... It just came to me.
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SPEAKER_02: The problem of trust I have,
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SPEAKER_02: at least,
25:01
SPEAKER_02: in whatever,
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SPEAKER_02: in myself,
25:05
SPEAKER_02: in the world outside,
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SPEAKER_02: is exactly this not knowing...
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SPEAKER_02: Actually,
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SPEAKER_02: even more the fear,
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SPEAKER_02: like the expectation that the fear that I will not be able to sustain the
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SPEAKER_02: experience that is waiting for me,
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SPEAKER_02: like behind this loop of faith.
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SPEAKER_02: So I guess...
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SPEAKER_02: Trust in whatever means trusting that whatever happens,
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SPEAKER_02: whatever the experience will be for me,
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SPEAKER_02: the internal experience,
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SPEAKER_02: the external,
25:56
SPEAKER_02: doesn't matter.
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SPEAKER_02: Because we tend to think that the trust is,
26:02
SPEAKER_02: okay,
26:02
SPEAKER_02: I trust that everything will happen as I want it to happen.
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And when it doesn't happen the way we expect it,
26:11
then the trust is broken.
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SPEAKER_02: Oops, we have a problem.
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SPEAKER_02: But when this source of trust,
26:22
SPEAKER_02: when I trust that whatever happens,
26:26
SPEAKER_02: I will be able to sustain it,
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then it doesn't matter whether the light holds me or I'm
26:38
falling down in the
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SPEAKER_02: darkness and I'm suspended in the emptiness.
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SPEAKER_02: It doesn't matter what happens.
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SPEAKER_02: It's about what happens within me.
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SPEAKER_02: So I guess what is emerging out of all of this blah,
26:55
SPEAKER_02: blah,
26:55
SPEAKER_02: blah,
26:56
that I guess my conclusion is at the moment that this is the
27:00
source of trust.
27:02
SPEAKER_02: And it's within me.
27:05
It's just my readiness to sustain the experience,
27:09
whatever the experience is.
27:13
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for verbalizing that.
27:15
SPEAKER_00: You just took me on a journey, and I was so with you.
27:20
SPEAKER_00: All of those elements are present, especially this tension about...
27:28
Going with the trust and then this fear that I also have that
27:32
comes up about can I
27:33
sustain and this thing that will happen if I trust and go with
27:39
with this like kind
27:40
SPEAKER_00: of embodied sensation of energy and feeling.
27:43
SPEAKER_00: Flow, really.
27:44
It's actually a question of,
27:47
if I trust and let myself get into this flow,
27:50
can I sustain it?
27:52
I don't know what part of me gets freaked out and worried about
27:55
this aspect,
27:57
SPEAKER_00: but there's definitely a part that always gets a little bit worried.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: Not a little bit, I would say a lot.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: And also...
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SPEAKER_00: There is this, before trust emerges, what's the moment right before it?
28:12
SPEAKER_00: And for me, right before it is,
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SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it's emptiness.
28:17
SPEAKER_00: It's more like, where's my observer self?
28:19
SPEAKER_00: Like, which self am I going to go with?
28:22
SPEAKER_00: Like,
28:23
SPEAKER_00: the one that holds all of it,
28:25
SPEAKER_00: you know,
28:25
SPEAKER_00: the more expanded one,
28:26
SPEAKER_00: or the one that is,
28:27
SPEAKER_00: like,
28:28
SPEAKER_00: in the experience?
28:29
Like,
28:29
there's almost like a,
28:30
which lens are we going to use for this,
28:35
like,
28:35
kind of experience?
28:41
SPEAKER_00: But it is almost coming back to what's already there.
28:46
SPEAKER_00: the whole time.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: So the question is like,
28:48
why am I not living from that place of trust and in that flow
28:52
the whole time?
28:53
SPEAKER_00: What part steps out of that experience and why?
28:59
SPEAKER_00: But it definitely,
29:00
SPEAKER_00: for me,
29:04
SPEAKER_00: also brings up kind of a response as to can there be flow without trust?
29:09
SPEAKER_00: And I don't feel like...
29:14
there can i i think that in order for the flow experience to
29:18
actually happen you
29:19
would have to have at least either a trust of your physical
29:24
self or a trust in in
29:26
your internal capacity and ability or a trust that like your
29:30
brain can figure stuff
29:31
out right i don't know that's what's kind of a that's what's
29:34
emerging for me around
29:35
SPEAKER_02: that well sometimes or actually a lot of times it's um
29:43
trust that something beyond the brain will figure it out and
29:48
that the things like
29:52
you and all interconnectedness but also the forces like if we
29:57
go to this low
30:00
experience extreme flow experiences of mountain climbers and
30:06
people who engage in
30:08
SPEAKER_02: extreme sports they all say that it involves
30:13
trust in something beyond you trust in the mountain trust in
30:20
whatever like the
30:20
energy that will hold you pick you up show you the way oh i
30:27
love that go ahead no
30:31
SPEAKER_02: yeah yeah trust in the mountain it it sounds
30:36
powerful it didn't even occur to me to have trust in the
30:39
mountain are you rock
30:42
climbing what are you rock climbing no but i was just imagining
30:51
when you're when i
30:52
SPEAKER_00: have gone skiing on some of the scarier slopes
30:57
SPEAKER_00: There was definitely like trusting the moment,
31:00
SPEAKER_00: the energy,
31:01
SPEAKER_00: my higher self,
31:02
SPEAKER_00: like future,
31:02
SPEAKER_00: like all of that.
31:03
SPEAKER_00: But I actually never thought about trusting the mountains.
31:06
SPEAKER_00: So that was a cool one.
31:07
SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
31:07
SPEAKER_00: I need to play with that.
31:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:11
SPEAKER_02: But again,
31:11
SPEAKER_02: like this trust,
31:13
SPEAKER_02: I guess what I'm thinking about now,
31:14
SPEAKER_02: okay,
31:15
SPEAKER_02: there is a source of trust and it's something fundamental.
31:19
And for example,
31:20
if we go to model that I really like the Polo-Vagel theory,
31:24
right?
31:25
SPEAKER_02: Trust goes to this,
31:27
setting where we feel or we know what it is to feel safe we're
31:32
familiar with this
31:33
feeling of safety in the world well you know like we i used i
31:40
used to take it as
31:42
feeling safe just on my own and with my own now i think it's
31:46
feeling safe with the
31:48
world because i'm never on my on my own um and um what was i
31:55
going to say yeah
31:57
SPEAKER_02: And I don't even remember where I was going with this.
32:03
SPEAKER_02: Actually,
32:04
SPEAKER_02: my idea was that it involves a lot of kind of like trying and errors,
32:10
SPEAKER_02: maybe practicing trust because yes,
32:17
so there is a source of trust and there is also things that
32:22
you're supposed to do
32:24
SPEAKER_02: in practical terms to
32:27
maintain the source to feed the source to cultivate the source
32:32
because if you don't
32:34
then the source itself um probably is not gonna do much i i
32:45
agree i think you're
32:46
SPEAKER_02: like to all this topic so that we
32:55
SPEAKER_02: And I don't think that it's the common experience for all people,
32:59
SPEAKER_02: but taking into account our background,
33:04
SPEAKER_02: we're coming from the country,
33:07
SPEAKER_02: the whole historical background of extreme instability,
33:16
SPEAKER_02: prolonged instability.
33:18
SPEAKER_02: And just in case,
33:19
SPEAKER_02: we didn't mention this time where we're coming from,
33:22
SPEAKER_02: and we're coming from Russia.
33:23
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
33:25
SPEAKER_02: I don't think that we will mention it in every episode.
33:29
SPEAKER_02: But since we're talking about it now in the country.
33:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:33
So I can imagine that there could be people who grew up in the
33:42
nurturing,
33:43
stable environment.
33:46
SPEAKER_02: They might have this sense of trust in themselves,
33:49
SPEAKER_02: in life,
33:50
SPEAKER_02: and whatever,
33:51
SPEAKER_02: just deeply ingrained in
33:54
It doesn't mean that it can't be broken at a certain point or
33:59
challenged,
33:59
at least.
34:03
SPEAKER_02: But,
34:04
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
34:04
SPEAKER_02: so,
34:05
SPEAKER_02: like,
34:06
SPEAKER_02: when you come,
34:10
SPEAKER_02: even just,
34:10
SPEAKER_02: you know,
34:11
SPEAKER_02: from the culture that I used to be always on the alert and always,
34:16
SPEAKER_02: you know,
34:16
SPEAKER_02: like,
34:16
SPEAKER_02: expecting that,
34:17
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
34:17
SPEAKER_02: like,
34:18
SPEAKER_02: tomorrow we don't know what will happen.
34:22
SPEAKER_02: Trust in the world, the external environment.
34:26
SPEAKER_02: It's a weird concept.
34:34
SPEAKER_02: When we're talking about whether trust is a choice,
34:40
SPEAKER_02: I don't think that this trust is a state,
34:47
SPEAKER_02: is a default state.
34:50
SPEAKER_02: is actually choice because it's the default.
34:54
SPEAKER_02: You're not conscious about it.
34:55
SPEAKER_02: You're just absorbed with the environment,
34:59
SPEAKER_02: with culture,
35:00
SPEAKER_02: with mentality,
35:01
SPEAKER_02: with everything that surrounds you.
35:02
SPEAKER_02: You don't make a choice.
35:04
SPEAKER_02: You just live like this.
35:06
SPEAKER_02: You have to make a choice at a certain point to start trusting whatever.
35:14
SPEAKER_02: Life, the world, yourself, people, it depends on the personal context.
35:20
SPEAKER_02: And this,
35:21
SPEAKER_02: yes,
35:21
SPEAKER_02: is all,
35:23
SPEAKER_02: it's always,
35:25
SPEAKER_02: first of all,
35:25
SPEAKER_02: it requires the decision,
35:28
SPEAKER_02: the personal decision.
35:29
SPEAKER_02: Now, like, I want to learn to trust.
35:32
SPEAKER_02: It requires this leap of faith.
35:36
SPEAKER_02: You're like jumping into this precipice because
35:44
SPEAKER_02: You want to explore something you didn't know before.
35:46
If you are coming from the default state of this trust,
35:50
how do you know what trust is?
35:54
SPEAKER_02: You need to jump into the precipice.
35:57
SPEAKER_02: And then it requires a lot of practice.
36:01
So if the constant repetitive practice of making this decision
36:09
time and again,
36:11
and failing and because again when we are playing with this
36:18
okay i will trust that
36:19
everything will happen as i want my mind wants it to happen
36:25
oops houston we have a
36:27
SPEAKER_02: problem so you like finding this your own path on this slippery path for
36:39
SPEAKER_02: okay, decide to trust, but do I trust myself?
36:43
SPEAKER_02: Do I trust my destiny?
36:44
Do I trust that the universe will bring me everything I want if
36:49
I vibrate the good vibrations?
36:55
Or do I trust that whatever happens in the end,
36:58
I will be able to sustain everything.
37:01
These are all the different trusts and it requires a lot of
37:03
practice and the
37:06
SPEAKER_02: it's like very long-term genre of exploration actually of this personal
37:12
SPEAKER_02: relationship with trust in different elements of the path yeah
37:23
like the different layers that are all involved and as you were
37:27
describing your
37:29
experience and and the way you see it for me what was emerging
37:33
was like the only
37:35
thing you could truly trust is that in this moment specifically
37:38
right now here
37:41
whatever can emerge will like you can trust that and the more
37:48
prepared you are
37:50
In terms of maybe information or data that the energy can
37:57
gather in your head and
38:00
SPEAKER_00: send through your mouth and verbalize into the world?
38:04
SPEAKER_00: Or however prepared you are energetically, how clear your ability to...
38:12
SPEAKER_00: connect to yourself,
38:13
SPEAKER_00: to connect to the energy,
38:15
connect to whatever it is that is pulling on those levers that
38:19
create that
38:20
SPEAKER_00: experience of kind of trust and also what's the word?
38:30
It's almost like a co-creation,
38:33
moment by moment co-creation that is driven by how
38:39
SPEAKER_00: aware and tuned in you are,
38:42
but also tuned out into like the whole spectrum of all the
38:47
layers involved all at
38:48
SPEAKER_00: the same time.
38:49
SPEAKER_02: So what I'm thinking about now is improv comedy,
38:57
SPEAKER_02: because this is my place where I've been practicing trust.
39:02
SPEAKER_02: It was not always fun.
39:04
SPEAKER_02: Actually, a lot of times it's not fun.
39:09
SPEAKER_02: And,
39:11
SPEAKER_02: I think there are a few insights.
39:15
If I think about it in the context of improv,
39:18
first,
39:21
what comes before trust?
39:23
SPEAKER_02: For me, it's fear and distrust.
39:27
And then I need to slow down to create some stillness and to
39:31
regain that trust.
39:33
SPEAKER_02: And then when I go on stage, let's say the trust is...
39:40
SPEAKER_02: Of course, you cannot prepare because it's improv.
39:45
SPEAKER_02: So the trust is that,
39:49
SPEAKER_02: yes,
39:49
SPEAKER_02: I will come up with something,
39:51
SPEAKER_02: that my partner will come up with something,
39:54
SPEAKER_02: that the whole space will somehow help this to happen,
40:00
SPEAKER_02: and that failure,
40:04
SPEAKER_02: and I've done that quite a few times where I felt like,
40:08
SPEAKER_02: Oh my God, that was so lame.
40:10
SPEAKER_02: That was so lame.
40:11
Nothing came from me,
40:13
from,
40:14
well,
40:14
maybe something from the party,
40:15
but definitely not from me.
40:17
SPEAKER_02: And so in this case,
40:20
SPEAKER_02: after a few times,
40:21
SPEAKER_02: I was like,
40:21
SPEAKER_02: okay,
40:22
SPEAKER_02: now I trust that if I fail this time,
40:26
SPEAKER_02: or if the failure is there,
40:27
SPEAKER_02: it's maybe not me per se who failed it,
40:31
SPEAKER_02: then this is something that I need.
40:34
SPEAKER_02: I trust in that this is something that's going to
40:39
SPEAKER_02: teach me and help me go forward.
40:43
SPEAKER_02: Actually, it was the case already a couple of times.
40:46
SPEAKER_02: When I started to look at it like that,
40:50
that every time that I feel really easy on stage and that I
40:56
didn't understand
40:57
SPEAKER_02: something or I couldn't come up with anything remotely good enough,
41:02
SPEAKER_02: that moment makes me kind of like...
41:06
SPEAKER_02: I don't know, lean in and then the next time things get better.
41:16
Two things came to me while you were speaking and I will try to
41:21
read it all together.
41:22
SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure that it will be very logical.
41:28
I actually feel like I had two pictures when you started
41:34
talking that you're like,
41:37
that there is a fear and then I need to trust that everything
41:41
just somehow will
41:42
happen what is supposed to happen and even the failure we need
41:48
to redefine the word
41:50
failure and the experience of failure but as you said this
41:54
redefinition is right so
41:56
that means it doesn't correspond to my expectations but it
42:00
means that there is
42:01
SPEAKER_02: something in this experience and I need this something
42:06
SPEAKER_02: So what came to my mind was the image from your favorite series,
42:13
SPEAKER_02: The Wheel of Time,
42:14
SPEAKER_02: when this initiation ritual when she was falling down the river.
42:27
SPEAKER_02: So this is the very beautiful image of really cloning
42:34
SPEAKER_02: Trust in the process, trust in life.
42:37
SPEAKER_02: I'm just surrendered.
42:39
SPEAKER_02: I let this flow take me to where I need to be taken.
42:50
SPEAKER_02: She was also applying some effort, right?
42:54
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
42:54
SPEAKER_02: It requires effort.
42:59
SPEAKER_02: In a lot of sense, first it requires effort.
43:04
SPEAKER_02: You're like,
43:07
surrender is always an effort because you need to get away from
43:16
your previous state
43:17
SPEAKER_02: of control.
43:21
So this is what came to me when Paulina was talking about that
43:25
you need to be prepared.
43:27
SPEAKER_02: But the question is,
43:30
SPEAKER_02: Can you be prepared for the unknown?
43:39
So it's always because I remember this moment in my life when I
43:49
consciously decided
43:51
SPEAKER_02: that I wanted to learn to trust life.
43:57
SPEAKER_02: And there is this big question still.
44:02
SPEAKER_02: I alluded to it already several times.
44:05
SPEAKER_02: What does it mean, trust in life?
44:07
That I trust that the universe will fulfill my wishes if I
44:13
behave in a certain way.
44:17
Or I trust that whatever experience life will take me to is
44:22
exactly like this river.
44:26
SPEAKER_02: will be the experience for whatever reason I need to be in.
44:35
SPEAKER_02: Another... And coming back to this stance that it's a constant practice.
44:46
SPEAKER_02: I remember I made this conscious decision.
44:51
SPEAKER_02: It was like 2016.
44:55
SPEAKER_02: And I finally realized that I don't want to set goals anymore.
45:03
I can't live in this mode of goal setting and goal achieving
45:07
and making decisions
45:11
SPEAKER_02: from these strategic plans of,
45:14
SPEAKER_02: okay,
45:14
SPEAKER_02: I'm going this way.
45:16
SPEAKER_02: Okay, I'm surrendering.
45:18
SPEAKER_02: And it is the constant practice of
45:26
Sometimes it turns into a fight because this expectation of
45:34
their known against
45:36
SPEAKER_02: Lenovo,
45:36
I want these things to happen and they go another way and it
45:42
creates this anxiety.
45:48
SPEAKER_02: How will I survive this if it doesn't happen the way I want it to happen?
45:56
SPEAKER_02: it requires this constant exercise,
45:58
SPEAKER_02: okay,
45:58
SPEAKER_02: like,
46:00
SPEAKER_02: I am going back to my decision that I will trust that whatever happens,
46:11
SPEAKER_02: somehow I need this experience.
46:13
SPEAKER_02: And so, like, I will just live this experience and I will learn from it.
46:17
SPEAKER_02: And most probably it will not be the experience my mind wants for me.
46:24
SPEAKER_02: So the other...
46:26
thing that came to me when julia was speaking was this phrase
46:33
from do you remember
46:35
shakespearean love like they they it was the scene that was
46:41
constantly repeating
46:42
SPEAKER_02: like when like
46:45
SPEAKER_02: Whatever happens, everything is a problem.
46:50
SPEAKER_02: Everyone is excited.
46:53
SPEAKER_02: What are we going to do?
46:54
SPEAKER_02: What are we going to do?
46:55
SPEAKER_02: And someone is saying, it will all start out somehow.
47:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but how?
47:03
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
47:05
SPEAKER_02: It's a mystery.
47:10
SPEAKER_00: It's so true.
47:12
It's a constant experiment,
47:13
like from what you're describing and also what Yule was
47:16
describing.
47:17
SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm really playing with even in today's episode.
47:22
SPEAKER_00: I am one of those people that's like,
47:24
let me throw all the facts out there and do all the research
47:28
and be like on top of
47:29
SPEAKER_00: all of the scientific opinions about this topic.
47:33
SPEAKER_00: But this time around, I was like, no, I'm not going to do that.
47:36
SPEAKER_00: I did my research.
47:37
SPEAKER_00: I prepared.
47:38
SPEAKER_00: And then I just let it go.
47:40
SPEAKER_00: Because I was trusting that whatever needs to arise,
47:44
SPEAKER_00: and not even from my lips,
47:45
SPEAKER_00: but from the two of you,
47:47
whatever needs to arise around this topic at this particular
47:49
point in time,
47:50
SPEAKER_00: in a short episode,
47:52
SPEAKER_00: one of many that we're going to do,
47:54
SPEAKER_00: that...
47:56
that it will arise and and that really does require a letting
48:00
go a tuning out of
48:03
something tuning into something else uh still preparation just
48:08
so that's that let's
48:10
say some of the facts or some of the thoughts are available at
48:14
least somehow you
48:16
SPEAKER_00: know in the data channel but not
48:19
SPEAKER_00: really kind of driving the controlling aspect of like,
48:22
SPEAKER_00: no,
48:23
SPEAKER_00: this has to come from the data channel.
48:24
SPEAKER_00: And today,
48:25
SPEAKER_00: actually,
48:25
I wanted to tune out of the data channel almost more than ever
48:29
before and tune into
48:31
like the space and the energy and the trust of the three of us
48:35
and the trust that
48:36
SPEAKER_00: whatever needs to emerge will.
48:37
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure how well it went today,
48:40
SPEAKER_00: but I'm hoping that it's like another step in this experiment towards
48:46
SPEAKER_00: Just like the flow of all of it.
48:50
SPEAKER_00: Like this big vision of flow.
48:55
SPEAKER_02: And speaking about flow and trust,
48:58
SPEAKER_02: one of your questions was,
49:00
SPEAKER_02: if there is trust,
49:01
SPEAKER_02: will there always be flow?
49:03
SPEAKER_02: And my answer is no.
49:06
SPEAKER_02: Like, for example, yeah, exactly.
49:07
SPEAKER_02: If we are trusting now ourselves ourselves,
49:12
that something will emerge between the three of us and between
49:16
the space and the
49:17
SPEAKER_02: world and the topic of trust,
49:21
SPEAKER_02: it may not happen or it may not flow.
49:28
And that's okay because we also discussed that there is a
49:35
difference between,
49:37
SPEAKER_02: let's say,
49:37
SPEAKER_02: flow in the moment,
49:38
SPEAKER_02: flow as a process and
49:41
SPEAKER_02: Life and flow.
49:44
SPEAKER_02: It just means that whatever we're doing right now,
49:48
SPEAKER_02: we do have trust that it's somehow within the flow of life.
49:55
SPEAKER_02: This is truly our flow in life at the moment.
50:00
SPEAKER_02: It sounds a little bit too complicated for me.
50:04
SPEAKER_02: No, no, no.
50:05
SPEAKER_02: I think it's wonderful.
50:06
SPEAKER_02: The flow in the absence of flow.
50:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
50:10
SPEAKER_00: The flow and the absence of flow.
50:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
50:14
SPEAKER_02: it's just,
50:15
SPEAKER_02: we say,
50:16
if we trust that whatever experience emerges for me at any
50:21
moment is exactly the
50:22
SPEAKER_02: experience that I need to be in at this moment.
50:27
SPEAKER_02: So if,
50:29
SPEAKER_02: for whatever reason,
50:30
I need to experience the absence of flow because I'm still at
50:33
the learning stage.
50:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
50:37
SPEAKER_02: So I'm still in the process of living in the flow.
50:42
SPEAKER_02: In the long term, I'm trusting that it will all sort it out.
50:53
SPEAKER_02: And I don't know how.
50:54
SPEAKER_02: It's a mystery.
50:59
SPEAKER_00: Well, but still effort.
51:01
SPEAKER_00: The effort part is definitely still part of it.
51:03
SPEAKER_00: You can't just say,
51:04
SPEAKER_00: okay,
51:04
I'm going to trust the process and I'm going to trust the flow
51:08
and it's all just
51:09
SPEAKER_00: going to take care of itself.
51:11
SPEAKER_00: I feel like flow is where preparation meets trust meets...
51:22
SPEAKER_00: the ability to connect meets a bunch of elements coming together.
51:27
It's like really a quite complicated set of like pieces all
51:34
coming together and,
51:36
SPEAKER_00: and also coming together from moment to moment to moment.
51:38
SPEAKER_00: So.
51:39
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
51:40
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
51:41
So I,
51:42
I don't really share what Eula said,
51:44
you know,
51:46
coming back to the question.
51:47
SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
51:51
SPEAKER_02: Is trust always present in flow?
51:53
SPEAKER_02: And does trust always mean that there is flow?
51:57
SPEAKER_02: So I agree.
51:58
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
51:58
The trust is one of the prerequisites of the flow,
52:03
but it's not sufficient for flow.
52:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I could see that.
52:10
SPEAKER_00: I could see that distinction.
52:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
52:14
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
52:17
SPEAKER_00: So...
52:21
SPEAKER_00: I think we are going to start closing up this episode.
52:27
And I'm going to invite us and the listener to sit with some of
52:33
these questions
52:34
SPEAKER_00: that we have answered.
52:36
SPEAKER_00: discuss today, um, and not rush to answer them, really explore them.
52:42
SPEAKER_00: Uh,
52:43
SPEAKER_00: not just,
52:43
SPEAKER_00: you know,
52:44
SPEAKER_00: from your mental perspective,
52:46
SPEAKER_00: but also,
52:46
SPEAKER_00: you know,
52:47
SPEAKER_00: from,
52:47
SPEAKER_00: from the somatic experience of trust and flow.
52:52
And,
52:52
um,
52:55
I invite you to ponder,
52:57
uh,
52:57
what is,
52:59
what does your body already know about trust?
53:04
And what might trust feel like in your body in the next
53:08
conversation or the next breath?
53:15
SPEAKER_00: And if something opens up for you, we'd love to hear from you.
53:20
SPEAKER_00: Please send us a note, leave a message.
53:24
SPEAKER_00: This is a co-creation.
53:25
SPEAKER_00: This is a big experiment that we're engaged in.
53:28
And we definitely want to engage with you,
53:31
the listener,
53:32
as well as we're engaging people.
53:34
SPEAKER_00: with each other.
53:35
And just to leave things,
53:40
I want to ask each one of you,
53:42
what are you leaving with today?
53:44
Actually,
53:53
the last couple of minutes as we're discussing things like this
53:58
question around
54:00
people was coming up for me that I didn't have an answer for
54:04
because you know with
54:08
people when you experience so much I guess betrayal in your
54:13
life and it's almost a
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given that you do and it's not something that you have control
54:21
over how do you keep
54:25
SPEAKER_02: this trust with people and
54:29
SPEAKER_02: what was coming up as my response at the moment.
54:34
I'm at the point where I've more or less restored trust for
54:39
people and with people,
54:41
SPEAKER_02: again,
54:41
SPEAKER_02: without expectations.
54:42
As Irina says,
54:45
I don't expect people to behave according to my expectations.
54:50
SPEAKER_02: I expect that I will be able to handle in whatever way they may behave.
54:54
SPEAKER_02: And I can also make a choice who I connect and deal with.
55:00
But what was coming for me was that if I were to choose one
55:09
focal point from which
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SPEAKER_02: I would need to build up my trust as the source,
55:21
SPEAKER_02: then it would be...
55:26
SPEAKER_02: It would not be people.
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SPEAKER_02: I would not start with people.
55:32
I would actually start with trees and plants or animals because
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I think that they
55:49
SPEAKER_02: offer much more reciprocation
55:54
at least in the form that you need and expect when lots of
56:00
times people do,
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especially if you come from this kind of low trust environment
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and life for humans
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SPEAKER_02: betraying.
56:11
SPEAKER_02: I was just,
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I had this image in my head because I went to the forest today
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and I was not
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SPEAKER_02: feeling well at all and I could not understand why I was not feeling well
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And then there was something,
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a super interesting plan,
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the way it looked.
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And I went there and there was a tree and there was a root that
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was sticking out of the ground.
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SPEAKER_02: And when I sat down,
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SPEAKER_02: it's if that root was,
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SPEAKER_02: and that tree was inviting me and they lured me through the flower.
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SPEAKER_02: And I sat there and all of a sudden I felt this wave
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SPEAKER_02: of comforting energy that I could trust.
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SPEAKER_02: I spent two hours there and I was lying down in the tree.
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SPEAKER_02: So that's what I wanted to finish with.
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SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Yulia.
57:18
SPEAKER_02: How about you, Ira?
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SPEAKER_02: I must say I want to say two things.
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first that this conversation has been an exercise of trust for
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me trust in the
57:32
process that everything will emerge as it needs to be emerged
57:40
and I need to have it
57:41
SPEAKER_02: all figured out in the mind and actually it helped me
57:55
SPEAKER_02: To find my own source of trust.
57:59
SPEAKER_02: The source of trust is something that resonated deeply with me.
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And my inner experience of my life trajectory lately has been
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all about this
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like in a struggle for and with and against the trust in myself
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or the lack of it
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SPEAKER_02: and trusting in the any other um
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SPEAKER_02: External forces, external environment, the circumstances, whatever.
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So my inexperience of everything what is going on in my life
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has been this,
59:00
SPEAKER_02: that I'm hanging in this vastness of darkness and emptiness.
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SPEAKER_02: And I don't know if I can trust myself to get out of it or if I can trust
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SPEAKER_02: everything what's around me to let me to get out of it.
59:21
SPEAKER_02: But actually,
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our conversation led me to install this realization that it's
59:29
not about trusting
59:30
that I will be able to get out of it or that there will be more
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light or whatever,
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SPEAKER_02: more stability,
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SPEAKER_02: more ground.
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SPEAKER_02: But it trusts that I will be able to sustain it.
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SPEAKER_02: Whatever happens for me in this emptiness, darkness and precipice.
59:54
SPEAKER_02: And it was quite an important insight.
1:00:04
SPEAKER_00: And for me...
1:00:10
I just appreciate that we have this container to experiment
1:00:14
with things like flow and trust.
1:00:17
SPEAKER_00: And this was also,
1:00:18
SPEAKER_00: um,
1:00:18
SPEAKER_00: a big experiment in trust for me,
1:00:21
SPEAKER_00: even going through,
1:00:22
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:00:24
SPEAKER_00: this very loose kind of structure,
1:00:27
SPEAKER_00: uh,
1:00:27
SPEAKER_00: of,
1:00:28
SPEAKER_00: of this episode.
1:00:30
SPEAKER_00: Um,
1:00:33
SPEAKER_00: and not being as engaged with my mental faculties as I usually am.
1:00:37
This was a new experiment and it was actually kind of cool,
1:00:41
but also like it requires practice.
1:00:43
SPEAKER_00: You know,
1:00:44
the more we do all these experiments and the more I trust
1:00:48
myself and I trust the
1:00:50
SPEAKER_00: two of you and I trust the field,
1:00:53
SPEAKER_00: to try different things,
1:00:54
the more it's kind of like almost a self-building mechanism
1:01:01
towards like in this
1:01:04
SPEAKER_00: direction that I really like and I want to stretch into even more.
1:01:08
So I really appreciate that the two of you are so willing to
1:01:12
play and try different
1:01:14
SPEAKER_00: things,
1:01:15
SPEAKER_00: even if our rational minds don't always agree.
1:01:19
SPEAKER_00: It is definitely overall an experiment in trust.
1:01:26
thank you both of you and thank you for joining us for those of
1:01:31
you who are
1:01:31
listening and thanks for playing with us and please reach out
1:01:39
share what your
1:01:40
experience is share your thoughts and your sensory experiences
1:01:46
we want to hear from
1:01:46
SPEAKER_00: you okay until next time thank you
1:01:53
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening.
1:01:54
SPEAKER_02: How was it for you?
1:01:56
We believe that the more people experience group flow together,
1:02:01
the better off we all are.
1:02:03
SPEAKER_02: More connected, more creative, more alive.
1:02:07
SPEAKER_02: So, let's expand the field.
1:02:09
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1:02:16
SPEAKER_01: Share it with a friend, leave a comment or give us a rating.
1:02:20
SPEAKER_01: We love you.
1:02:23
SPEAKER_00: Do subscribe so you'll know when the next experiment comes out.
1:02:26
SPEAKER_00: You can also connect with us on our Life & Flow Group Substack.
1:02:30
SPEAKER_00: We'd love to hear from you.
1:02:32
SPEAKER_00: Let's keep flowing together.